[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we give you a strong biblical framework and lots of practical ideas on how to live intentionally as a father and a husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Brooke Moser and I'm Justin Whitmore Early and we're your host to guide you through the many roles and challenges that God is calling you to live intentionally as a father.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're following a visual framework that you can check out at intentionalfatherhood.org and it's going to help you break down fatherhood into eight columns.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in each one, we're going to talk about how God made you to be a father, and what practical habits you can start trying today in order to live intentionally into that home.
[SPEAKER_00]: So come along with us as we follow Jesus on this journey towards being more intentional fathers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast, Justin and I and a very special guest today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, very special guest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Patty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Justin, will you please introduce our very special
[SPEAKER_00]: My favorite, my everything, my wife Lauren.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first lady on the fatherhood podcast ever, we are excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I knew I was coming out to Richmond to do season two and we were like, we have got to have a conversation together.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for making time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know the boys are at school and we're right in the middle of the day during their first week back to school, which is busy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been a big week for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to go deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to say thank you to everyone who's listening and who's rated and subscribed and taken a minute to like, leave a review.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been so helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I was saying to, I think in like season two somewhere, I was saying, you know, there's a lot of ladies that listen, but don't subscribe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to give full permission.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like ladies, like, listen, subscribe.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says that there are women out there who listen, almost
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is not, this is not the only sample, but about four or five ladies that I have talked to have been almost like, yeah, listen, like almost like sheepish about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, it's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, please do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an honor to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, see, see, there we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so honored that you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not my non-dominant podcast app.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just can't get it on overcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come on, just a shout out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're non-dominant podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like Apple podcasts.
[SPEAKER_03]: So maybe the other women out they're using overcast and you just missed us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am so many questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to get it out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just undid my brain right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: I told you just and I was like, can you get on our casserole?
[SPEAKER_03]: And you've forgotten.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you on a, is this on overcast?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I had to go to Apple to subscribe.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, you know what I'll, well, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a great note.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll talk to our team team wonderful team.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody really cares about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I'm a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did we not like that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did we have any voice memos from female listeners?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they were all male, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel many of they felt comfortable to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe this would be another fun invitation because we've gotten such great voice memos sent to hello at intentional fatherhood.org.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: and tell us your name, tell us where you're from, and leave a 60 second voice memo asking a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: We played some for Lauren last night.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there was super fun of a question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Questions are great.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, ladies, if you have questions for us, like marriage questions or like parenting that are relevant, I'd be happy to jump back on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got to see, we got this episode too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know the bummer was Elizabeth was, we were too trying to come as well and that would have been fun to do all four of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at some point all four of us were there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the hard part is.
[SPEAKER_03]: The only bit is your week in the first week of school is the week before school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is where you guys are.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys started school.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was like, yeah, this is the week before school.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were, yeah, she was like, I would love to and unfortunately I think I would be undone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yep, I see the boundary.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so we wanted to welcome the first female voice in this space.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're very happy to have you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we decided to do today for fun was, we want to talk through some different topics as it relates to fatherhood and also hearing from, you know, obviously lower in your perspective, but also, you know, there's these dynamics between
[SPEAKER_01]: Just in an eye, we're two dads doing this and it's just fun to hear of the other side.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about these concepts.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about how life looks and that's our perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's pretty accurate.
[SPEAKER_01]: We try to be as honest and as full of integrity.
[SPEAKER_01]: But some of these things, they also, they flesh out differently for moms.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can feel different.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can, the experience can be different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think this is really like check your work type conversation, this true, no, not fully, but I think the point really is we have some stuff to talk about, but But to also just get a window into your guys's life and your story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's what I want to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't talk about this, but I'd love to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear Lauren, because I know I've heard you on this like a thousand times.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear Lauren's perspective on just a little bit of the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your guys' story of how you met and a little bit of like the love story from your perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's where this started, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys, it started and then we'll get into all the stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it'd be fun for a little backstory.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just Simon and college, he was a year ahead of me at UVA, University of Virginia.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, who are?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who are?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I didn't get involved into a Christian fellowship until my second year, kind of beginning in my second year.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it was his third year at UVA, and that's how we met.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so he was an MC on our like like at our camp.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a weekly fellowship gathering on Thursday night.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like to kind of like a young life or so we were we were with the crew, but um yeah like a worship service or leader would give a talk, but he would be the MC up front, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like golden boy cool guys like you were like already talking in front of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like talking in front of you, it's been a really surprising for a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just, you know, I knew who he was.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then this is so like funny about our relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the first candidate we had was he invited me to come see his punk rock hardcore, like Scream No Band play and he played the drums and was the Screamer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were the screamer?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had so many questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you made it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I want to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I wanted to the technique.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to hear you do it right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we have to talk later.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like in the basement of a sort of sketchy bar.
[SPEAKER_01]: She barressed her on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so because it was like kind of an intense, like crowd mosh pit environment, our good friend Rob Jefferson actually kind of was like my
[SPEAKER_03]: at the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I was on the guest list.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for your time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I got shout out to Pock.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's that's Rob's nickname.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, um, but then he asked me over when a break he asked me out to coffee and this is like classic art dynamic.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me tell this later.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just like, I was like, no, you have plenty of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're done, dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's gonna learn you.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll say like, I will say this is one of the guests in our room and we're just just in a soft and my heart edges.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was like, do you want to get coffee now?
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I don't like coffee.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I was like, oh, but I really like him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, and then he was like, or something else.
[SPEAKER_00]: I persevered.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, how about lunch?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want lunch?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think we did go to get coffee.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just got something else.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: cider or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you're like coffee now or I don't like coffee like did it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you like me?
[SPEAKER_03]: By four years we dated for two years by the name of college.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, where is coffee now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, wait, so I have to do to hold on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I have a question about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were so full of integrity in that moment that you were like, I have to answer the question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, this is Lauren's oneness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and maybe it was like lack of maturity.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I think I was also nervous.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was more like I didn't process quick enough because I was like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, this guy likes me and I'm kind of sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have Chester yet?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like where were we at?
[SPEAKER_01]: Get a beard.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really long hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you had luck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I long hair.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is very, yeah, people are always confused when they find out just in the form of the anagram.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, well, you didn't know I'm in college.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very foot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, where are shoes?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in the winter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found that out this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I know that I know who you were.
[SPEAKER_03]: Super long hair.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was like bleach blonde from being in San Diego and summer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I spent the summer surfing in San Diego at the Summer Missions Project with Kavis Kusay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, which was, yeah, I did the next summer.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Shout out San Diego.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have social place in our report.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we start going on dates like that winter break.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then quickly realized we both like things that we had in common that we love or like driving with the windows downblaring music.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was Garden State soundtrack, kind of era.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Life lines.
[SPEAKER_03]: A little healthy trespassing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some healthy trespassing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you gotta like push boundaries and good ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like for this with my boys and life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really hope you don't do drugs.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you do a little healthy trespassing on the side, just don't get in trouble.
[SPEAKER_02]: We said on the edge of rock.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we went to rocks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we, one of our dates was he, we climbed illegally, you know, a giant water tower on campus.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was like in February.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a Valentine's Day date.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a naughty.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so cold.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was scary going down because our hands were numb and it was like really hot and we had to like climb down the ladder but it was fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm always up for adventure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also life of the mind stuff, we were in a Shakespeare class together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Campos social.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: We took a Shakespeare class together.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was like our second year dating and then we were the same age but he was young for his grade.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's his senior year, fourth year at UVA.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he was just mostly like, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think this is the gross of the seminary, but I'm so young and she's not perfect.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought, yeah, it's going so well.
[SPEAKER_00]: It scared me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one way to put it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that is actually a great way to put it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we lived, we both lived in campus, like houses off campus, what's like lots of other, like I lived with like 12 Christian girls in a big house.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we back, our house is backed up to each other, and there was like a B&B forest in between.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one night, I'm like, at his place, and he's like breaking up with me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, I look at him, and I'm like, this is a bad decision.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is no reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is back.
[SPEAKER_00]: She did say that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, this is a bad decision.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no reason for you to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you do this, I'm not going to be friends with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, Lauren, this is a great story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am so glad I asked him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he's like sad.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sad because I'm like, he's still doing this, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're both like 21.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we walk out to that he's kind of like walking me back.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess to like kiss me, but bye forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're in the middle of the bamboo forest in the dark.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like probably like, I don't know, one A.M. or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I turned to leave.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we'd not said, we'd been dating for a year and a half.
[SPEAKER_03]: Neither of us had, I don't think we'd even,
[SPEAKER_03]: And we kiss it up, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we hadn't said I love you yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, definitely not.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I love you quietly under my breath as I walked away.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I didn't talk to him for the next month.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you heard this?
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know if you heard me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, and I wasn't going to ask him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said goodbye.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, I love you and turned her out and I began to cry and but I really didn't stop for about two months Orbel Yeah, I shared a couple of things Yeah, but the poster service just lights up in the background.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like the soundtrack you know
[SPEAKER_01]: No joke, no joke.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had so many, oh, that record.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of, yes, maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fast forward, and I shared about this a couple episodes ago, it was horrible two months.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was depressed, I now realize, like super anxious about my decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: The funny part is we sort of got back together in the exact same spot in that bamboo forest because one night.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was behind my house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, because I was thinking about asking her out again because I was having horrible two months and but I just couldn't decide this is like March.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm standing like at the edge of that for it's just looking at her house one night.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's as weird as it sounds.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just like, it's like it's not like it's not like it's not that far from your house.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes it so a little bit more normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're also smoking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was throwing a close cigarette.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm really dating, so I pull up in my car from the library, like to you, because I'm an idol.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a city.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is your story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me cook you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, we have a, there's no signing at the edge of the baby for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I see headlights pulling into the driveway.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, it's three a year or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, surely Lauren is already home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who is this?
[SPEAKER_03]: It was one a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I was wondering if that's that is true actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, there's a Lauren's headlights.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I'm caught now, like, she sees me, what, like, this is going to be so awkward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's a little say anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: But more turns off and the interior lights come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my great friend, Rob, the aforementioned protector of her, that's the the punk concert.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is in the passenger seat.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: No big deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just giving you a run for the library guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is wrong?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm processing this all every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is actually quickly what I come to like, there's no way, like, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rob is an enemy.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I really have it seen me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can actually, yeah, escape this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I remember this is this is this is actually classic me in college.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought of a gustance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just that phrase.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought of Augustan's people paraphrase I'm saying, I'm actually not sure where it's written.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love God and do what you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had like been like searching God for an answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like should I ask Lauren out again?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or should I not?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And God is not telling me what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember thinking, it's a holy way of saying, go with your gut.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you want to do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, assuming altruists are going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, obviously within more boundaries of the Bible clearly lays out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But within that gray space that is so often true, like who do I marry?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like the growing up stuff we talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do I do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I get back together with this girl?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I ask this person out?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I love God and do what you want?
[SPEAKER_00]: I suddenly realized,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where this is going, but I know that I want to go somewhere with Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to figure this out and I stepped out of the band before us and I was like, hey, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one of the the starly moments of my life Rob was immediately like he like melted into the shadows.
[SPEAKER_03]: He knew what was up.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, because we just look at each other and no one talks and Rob goes, I think I'm going to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, because like we lived next to them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was going to ride home because he lived with Justin.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he lives in that house.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I pulled into my back a lot, basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rob just is going to hop over to his house and so we got into that night.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here we are in 19 20 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just just moved to China three months after that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw the graduate, UVA.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, and now it's been almost, you've been married almost 19 years and then together for 20 something together for I guess 22.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm four boys and then now now this is there's been fruit from this union and it's been a fruitful marriage for
[SPEAKER_01]: Poor boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've already had this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about that later.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for boys, we're gonna be happy to correct everything that I said and we said that would be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think, I mean, I want to want to highlight, and this is kind of the where I'm going with this is you guys have four boys and their boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not like passive dudes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like we talked about.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were there last night.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like there's a hole in the wall.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's excitement.
[SPEAKER_01]: pantsing, what a fun game.
[SPEAKER_01]: I forgot.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's because no, that's a family rule.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can do it if I'm not there because it's an all- That's what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you see how Lauren left the job of wit and they all said started playing like pants?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because like that's part of being a man.
[SPEAKER_03]: So is being funny and messing with your dudes, but you don't do it if it's ladies president.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they get, I mean, they turn stress that and get trouble.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I do like how you turned to me at one point and you're like, so is this normal?
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that was like, because you were like, oh, my gosh, this interview is this normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so no, so because we have energy, but it's emotional energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no wrestling and verbal and verbal and so it's like this unique tension of like wordsmith and ability to say something in such a way that does not overtly get you in trouble, but it's enough to like just cut to the core of the other human where the words are being directed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like, wow, your toys are really dumb.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, like, stuff like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no wrestling.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's wrestling.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's physically touching.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just psychologically dominating the other person.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's psychological warfare in my house.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we don't have anywhere near that kind of subtle thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's beauty in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I want to talk about is, you know, you guys are raising four boys and they're becoming men actively, whits taller than you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's in that middle stage of just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: entering life and puberty and like all that stuff, you know, going to be in high school soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And eighth grade, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just started.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, I wanted to just talk about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you guys think together is a couple?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want for the parents listening for the father's listening, you know, because this doesn't just happen with the father's, you have a partner in this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We all as father's listening have a partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: That complete this partnership in a way that is so important to help us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so my question just really is how, what does it look like for you guys to raise boys to become men?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the things you guys are doing as a couple?
[SPEAKER_01]: Together, warm water, some of the things you're doing as a mom?
[SPEAKER_01]: to really help move these, you know, boys to men, godly men.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things you said was actually the woman was really helpful of just being like, hey, here's some basic stuff, like, dudes are going to be dudes, but don't do it in front, like, here's the line of where I don't want to see everything, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, that's very practical and funny, but I think like that stretched out over spirituality.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we're in emotions, like there's a lot of intentionality that you guys have.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll just say, like, talking to dads, I get regularly sought out by mom of all boys, because they are so just overwhelmed and underwater and confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I, I think,
[SPEAKER_03]: to men out there who have sons, especially if you only have sons, because it's particularly, you know, amped up when you have an all-male household.
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to help your wife to code like voice, because I just and decode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just like understand, it's just not the same, especially like void of boy expressions, affirmation of love are going to look like ribbing,
[SPEAKER_03]: really hard for me, for example, illustrative example from like, I don't know, eight years ago, we have four boys at this point, they're probably like eight to two or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am just so fed up of every time someone walks by their brother, they shoulder them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's just so much physical fighting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Justin was like, Warren, that's not a fight you need to pick.
[SPEAKER_03]: Every time I walk by my, my best friends, I'm gonna bump them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he was like, that's not a thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to address, that's not an unkindness.
[SPEAKER_03]: receive physical like they love you so much they want to kill you you know kind of yeah yeah I was like just want to consume you I love you so much women have that about babies you know women will be like oh this one you eat you all up boys are like to me they would like my boys are just really expressive physically all my pot of toddler boys slap me in the face punch me in the face
[SPEAKER_03]: because they let me so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, so like, but like, like, do you know what me doesn't like this?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think like, the wrestling and all this like, science is coming out, the more dads are physical with their boys, well, all their children, you know, lifting up the girls to whatever, but up to a high age, like, and Justin's like, and I had to adopt that as a mom of all boys of like, we got a trampoline because I was like, I'm not fighting in the house with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I will get on the trampoline when Papa's gone for a couple days and all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or like, instead of like, I'm just like losing my cool because they're like fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting.
[SPEAKER_03]: My punishment is like tickle war in the trampoline.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that like resets them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then like I had to learn from him that like coming at them sideways through physicality.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like, I do not speak the language of physicality.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a female, I wasted hundreds of thousands of words in the purse five years of my parents because they don't hear me.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're little.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're rational brains aren't online, starting until age two.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Justin just intuitive that because like also like,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's helped our marriage because the more I learned about boy development from people like David Thomas, shout out, raise boys and girls podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I realized like, I can't a little girl even who's seven can keep a list of verbal commands in her head that I tell her, but even my husband cannot do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: If I give you a high five real quick, just because wiring it, but if I give him a visual list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is where I need to tell this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But could you please turn off this episode?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually Elizabeth and I share note apps.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we do too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So literally I get a text that is a shared note.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's Brooks list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Literally.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always tell you, you're like, it does help.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, yeah, just go through the list.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is why in retrospect, I see my mom was so wise.
[SPEAKER_00]: She must have learned this at some point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because she would always tell me, you're going to go do this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it may be take out the trash.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're going to come back and you're going to say, what's next?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because she told me three or four things.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I have no hope.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so she learned a big time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just that the thing is you're going to come back to me and say, what's next?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I think that's helped me a lot because I, especially our oldest, is super high executive functioning for a boy, especially.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he can't help tell me he's like, Mom, has owned out.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't, can you just write it for me?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, he cannot, but he's willing to be faithful and do the things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and yeah, it's just been good to remember like our wiring is different.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so to them in out there, like you need to help your wives understand that that's a design.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not a flaw and that you need to adapt accordingly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of the way our society is set up with little kids, especially is very female dominated.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just in not in a bad way, female, like women are simple, nurturing and caring.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's all about like, we're going to tell you what to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but if I show them what to do or I give them something that's like here's the trash Take it out like they can handle itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to just zone in on some of you said So I wasted hundreds of thousands of words in the first Spade you know young young Which is impressive and another self if you think about that how we're gonna for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, I had a zero to
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, zero to five year old for like eight years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I just want to I want to the only thing I want to zone in on that is I know that you were kind of just saying that as a passing phrase, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you are highlighting, which is we often pick the wrong tool for the job at hand and I think that the wisdom that you're saying right there is like
[SPEAKER_01]: learning who your kids are and going like I have all voice we got to pick a whole different metric even if that's not natural to how you would like to do it right and I think that's the real lesson like for all of us because as a dad to girls I have the language like I have to yeah I got to grow shop yeah it's a whole different way and and it's really like whether it's natural to me or not it's not the point the point is really like how do I serve them best and
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was just bubbling to the surfaces we're talking about this process, you guys are in a big space.
[SPEAKER_01]: And with four boys with the energy that they have and you guys are both very thoughtful and intentional parents obviously, it's very clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, that amount of children with responsibilities in life, no matter how mild and if you do just the basic things of just keeping people alive, that is so exhausting and everything that you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know this, we know this, we're on the same stage.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, you guys both do a lot, and so outside of just the family life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I wanted to just kind of ask and move to the question of like, for you guys, how do you encourage each other in friendships and or how do you help each other with this load?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think for all the fathers listening and mothers, especially,
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would love to hear first from you Lauren, what is the most helpful thing that Justin as a father does for you to like release you into Feeling like a mom a woman a wife a spouse a partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of those things that he can actively do that That actually help you with that and the reason I'm asking it that ways because I think there's a lot of things that has been we think we're doing that is helpful But it's not actually helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just love to hear from the female perspective like where what are those things?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this is partly particular to my personality in the way he does it, but I think he has really fought for me to have time alone in time away.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, especially because of like the four boys kind of back to back just like, yes, the breastfeeding years.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just so hard for a woman to have any time to herself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: If that's your particular story and he would.
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of be mean sometimes, because I would be so overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't even like, you wouldn't accept it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I was scared to leave my kids alone with a babysitter.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know that's like something someone would have to get over.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not, you know, Justin always was like taking care of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just like, I would go do something else.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would be setting the house.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would be running errands, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he just sometimes is kind of like, no, you need to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I can see this has been a hard day and I would be like, but we still need to do this XYZ.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to tell you all these things and school, you know, the homework hasn't been done and he would be like, you need to trust me with it and you need to leave.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I take confrontation pretty well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am a pretty direct person so that I don't think the way he said it is prescriptive to all relationships, but the way that your wife needs to be encouraged is for you to show her that you got this in like not that you're going to and that requires a level of buy into what the
[SPEAKER_03]: the baseline expectations for running things while she's gone are.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would say that took us a while to come to terms with like we had to come to a common set of, this is the low bar that's acceptable and it's higher than his and it's lower than mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we both, we both, and like that might not be true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It varies on the issue, you know, like, but like if the wife, especially in the baby years because she's gonna be the one who's like that's in her head about like, you missed an app.
[SPEAKER_03]: That means he's not going to sleep for me to art.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, if that's a little bar, then you need to rise to that occasion.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes he pushes back and he's like, they did 18 minutes of reading, not 25.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, okay, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you made the effort, but like...
[SPEAKER_03]: higher than mine, lower than it's just we had we had to come and it took like four years of passing out like for me cleaning the kitchen includes wiping down the surfaces like I did it last night, I promised to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: He it's not that he leaves him out on purpose.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's just really focused on the pots and the sink and I had to be like those are easy for me to get to tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if we wake up and there's honey on the island when I'm signing the homework sheet, I will lose my mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like I had to be like this is more important to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going out and that I come back and the counters are like a disaster.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know you just don't see it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't, it's not something, it's not like you're leaving it on purpose to spite me.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like this is a low bar that took years and like he had to be trained in the habit of seeing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like I had to have like three it was like three to four hard years of hashing out like what are in like my expectations had to drop of what a low bar was had to go so far down because I'm a perfectionist in four boys and like their house is just a disaster all the time and I had to be like
[SPEAKER_03]: We can't, like we didn't worry, art for like two years because we were like, there's too many other things going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we just couldn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just like, sometimes like, that was my bar going down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like sometimes it was like, we just can't, until we can afford a lot of service, we're just gonna have weeds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's just, you know, and it's not, I feel like there's a false narrative that you can be faithful to all, like not faithful.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can be faithful to everything you're called to, but you can't.
[SPEAKER_03]: have the ideal to what is in your head.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's true for if you're a working parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when I was full-time working and we had two babies, I felt like I could only give it 80% of my job and 80% at home and that was really hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if you're a wife hearing this in your state at home parent, that is a really hard struggle too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I don't think the state at home parent who hasn't worked outside the home real is as hard that is to code switch and be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely, yeah, you're like I had to like grow an empathy for that struggle while at the same time, like I worked full time until our second was born and then I transitioned to part time and kind of like realizing like being at home also feels like that that you could never.
[SPEAKER_03]: complete a task or finish things up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm often talking to moms and dads about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It conferences or events, lots of people ask about how to help your wife or help your husband get out of the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you put it really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just would speak specifically to the fathers that many of us see that our wives need to have personal space, they need to have friendship, they need to have time off.
[SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of guys will be like, I can't get her to accept it and it's like, you put it really well, like you need to lower the bar to actually accept the gift, but the message to the dad is like, you need to work as hard as you can to hire them to make her feel like, wow,
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I guess I can leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I can trust you with this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the other side, you know, Lauren talking to the moms is like, you need to lower the expectations because you need to get out of the house, but so, you know, you gotta talk to both.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, I feel like the notes app is a good practical tip.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, well, I can't download my head to him in the kitchen when the kids are around.
[SPEAKER_03]: He'll be like, I can't remember any of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if I take five minutes to go,
[SPEAKER_03]: Get ready and I'm in our room and I sit down and I write and either you know a paper note or like a notes app and I'm like these are the absolute must have these are my 10 nice to have to course he never gets to the nice to have and I'm like I would have done that but whatever like I've laid it out and he's like very clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like that message, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I cannot tell you how similar you and Elizabeth are in this arena specifically, but yeah, it's a very challenging thing because it's a burden to be able to see how good everything could be, but not to attain it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the burden that I think it's a burden sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's always a gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can't always see how good things could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm kind of like blissfully happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: How could you?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty great here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty okay with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alley next to the numbers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thankful for what I do have, I don't know what I don't have, and that's not moral or more godly, I think, but just to the wiring piece, what I hear you guys saying, and just to maybe highlight the principle you're just saying so beautifully, it's like figure out your spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do they need and then with that, and this is tricky, because you guys know this better than anybody, because even though we're all really well-meaning in our marriages, at least hopefully if you're a good-hearted person who loves Jesus,
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to want to do good to your spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to give them space.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we often, and I would say this is probably mostly subconsciously, although it gets to the verbal level, is we keep score.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would love to hear what your guys' thoughts are on that, because it's very easy to be like, I'm going to give her a night away.
[SPEAKER_01]: But man, I had to force her to do it, and I got to do all this work, and it's just fraught with the idea of
[SPEAKER_01]: bitterness or frustration if you don't have the right perspective or heart or understanding.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you guys, what does that look for you guys?
[SPEAKER_03]: This was a, I mean, I think it's tough.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we hit around year nine or ten of her marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: We hit our, our hardest patch and it lasted, you know, three years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Really wise woman from older sister and Christ and my church was about 15 years ahead of us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Met with me at that time.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, how long have you been married?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like almost in your, she's like you're right on time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was such helpful, uh, like expectation setting for like when you've been married for a while, and you're usually around 10 years you have deep sort of demands on you with job career and children.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um,
[SPEAKER_03]: The, and the major struggle was we were both completely under water.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was when we found out we were pregnant with our fourth.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was surprised our two youngest or 18 months apart.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's two babies over there close.
[SPEAKER_03]: Two babies at one time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, there's little two.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I have a lot of physical challenges with my pregnancy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, and then like I had three active boys while I was pregnant, he had left a lot for him to start his own practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he's running his own business.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and then COVID hits and then I have to paint pandemic homeschool.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was a really rough two years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, for a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But specifically with that timing and I think the hardest thing for us to and like the live from Satan and just the bitterness of this is the hardest time in my life and he is not supporting me.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he felt exactly the same way.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there are times in your marriage where you are both gonna be, it is such a hard time at the same time and you can't go above and beyond to support the other one.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you have to fight with your whole being that root of bitterness that keeps the score and says, so I did this and he didn't do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I realized like it took like three years for the Lord to flip that my head to, it's never gonna be equal.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's always going to feel like I'm doing more, but it always feels like that to him too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if that's your period, I'm where you're both like, I'm going to go to the extra mile.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm always going to feel like it's a little bit, I'm doing more, but you don't hold it against the other, then that's for God's magic gospel of like, it's better to give them receive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then it starts to change until like, I really love him so I'm going to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and I really came out of it first, because he was kind of like, that was kind of around the time of the same, like fight about like, what is the low bar?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he like kind of up to first and was like,
[SPEAKER_03]: everything in my life was so hard though because I was like I felt horrible the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was just like my low bar was just like I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't go any lower.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he went lower, you know, he went higher first in the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd jump in for a second to note the messy reality of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We fought about this stuff for a good couple of years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like really hard fights.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because exactly what you said, I'll just say the my version of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the male version of it that probably a lot of dads are experiencing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we grow up in a, against the back top, we grow up against the backdrop of a generation who didn't seem super involved with the nitty-gritty.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, dads who didn't know how to change diapers or pack lunches and moms who were doing it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, no, we're gonna know how to do that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we want to help our wives who want to be involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them want to work outside the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to enable some of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're learning all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: only to realize, wait, I'm also building my own career.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm helping raise the kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a very present father.
[SPEAKER_00]: And apparently it's still not to her liking.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's like, it's, I'm still not living up.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's still more I could do.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she says this is still just a low bar.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, right, I'm giving my version.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I can sit there, like, doing the dishes at night and thinking,
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's still not enough and why don't people help me and I have to work a job then I have to come and work another job and then I don't get enough sleep and people are always asking and of course in her head she's like people are hanging on me all day and I never get off and I never get away from the kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel bad and I have a time to plan to myself or even have an adult conversation and my my version of keeping score.
[SPEAKER_03]: and everyone was sick.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got the stomach virus six year, six times in one year.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was just, it was really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: My version of keep in the floor is nursing that narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nursing that narrative of no one helps me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think maturity in our second 10 years of marriage that really feel like it's been the last five where we've got a little better about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So around that year 15 maybe is letting that go by saying, you can't, you literally can't just like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: with what hands do you drop in it all of the heart?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can embrace a new love by meditating on and replacing that self-talk with look at all that Christ has done for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't done a fraction for this family of what Christ has done for the family of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still haven't kept it up my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still haven't surrendered at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've still got more to give, apparently I can die a little more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thinking about that, this is why we've spent so much this season talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: giving your life away.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the season where you learn over and over and over.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not dead yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm giving it away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're still there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's helped reframe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing more, which both of us are thinking to how can I make her even happier?
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I serve her even more?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because honestly, my happiness is bound up in hers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to be happy by her finally saying, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: You do do more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no, and it's going to nurse the worst parts of me and it's going to be on everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we both say, thank you for what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see your work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to help you too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we're then we're acting like Christ to each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like I mean, I've read take it for our the.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: The role has her book um and I'm loved it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just the the paradigm shift in early parenthood.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the Frick is zero to 10 is.
[SPEAKER_03]: wait, when is this going to end?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I thought there was nothing left for me to give, and yet someone just threw up or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or like, I'm pregnant again, or something.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's the both maturity and your marriage to realize that existential angst of like, I am being asked to do something that is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Beyond me is a spiritual crisis and like we had our embrace the spiritual practice of lament Yes, and like instead of like for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like I'm so angry at God But I was like I'm just gonna be mad about Justin not doing this because that felt more active And so I had to be like God is big enough for my emotions and also he desperately Jesus desperately wants to help me in every little thing like if I could actually like just be like And Justin does too and so if I'm like
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm praying because someone just threw up again and I cannot believe we have the stomach bug again.
[SPEAKER_03]: I text the girl's chain.
[SPEAKER_03]: Someone drops off a green juice from me from my favorite place.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like $13.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, God meant me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: Someone random.
[SPEAKER_03]: Stop by with a special treat.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then later, I'm like, you know, Justin, this is really, and it, like, those are the things of like, if you go to the Lord and your need instead of being.
[SPEAKER_03]: bitter and angry response, you know, it's just that it's that turn of like and that's actually what God has for us.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wants to build us into people who can give our life away and that only happens or tearing our idols down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say a skill and marriage is learning how to kindly and gently say to your spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a true art.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I still don't figure it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're mad at God, but you're yelling at me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or circumstances.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're mad at circumstances, which is to be mad at God.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're yelling at me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I encourage you to work it out with him?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never figured out how to say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was going to say it depends on, I think it's just the timing of which you say that, because I'm thinking in the middle of an argument that you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you're the problem, and we all do this, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know your wife's cycle, don't pick the worst time.
[SPEAKER_03]: That conversation, like seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: She'll elaborate a little.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's like, it's different for everyone, but there's going to be three to five days where her emotions are not in her control.
[SPEAKER_03]: So don't pick those to have the fight.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you don't know it, figure it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was a huge revolution when Lauren started sharing, like, we started using a shared calendar, and then she was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think at one point, didn't I ask?
[SPEAKER_00]: Was I, can you put your monthly cycle on it so I can see?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I shared it with you and I was like, and the, these are, I shared the, like, I had a counter for myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I was like, and then I put the like five days before, which is when like, I have like, extreme self criticism and like crazy rage for two days.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a recurring counter hold.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really helps me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, so he could know.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was great practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you don't know,
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what her body is experiencing, this can be said back and forth for the husbands.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't know what her body and mind are experiencing, it's super easy to be judgmental and not empathetic.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I was like, oh, I know this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is that couple days where I might take some heat, but I can really show some love.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not taking it personally.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, and you know, good training for parenting because that's like classic, you know, adolescent is like they're gonna be like all over the map boys and girls and you have to be like don't take it personal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm in this space right now and it's real.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the real emotions, but you know, the thing I want to just, you know, present to it, just a tiny bit more is how often we end up taking out our anger, our frustration, our sadness on our spouse because
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, our safest people are those who we are so quick to be honestly the most raw vulnerable and honestly like take out a lot of our frustration with because we know that that we're still loved even even in spite of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't make it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't make it good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't make it even healthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think also though, I just want to say it's very normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very normal thing to be like, well, you know, you're the safest person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're not always subconscious about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think though what you had said is just so important, how we can just become aware.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we've been talking a lot at the season about naming things and naming the fact like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, just be getting, coming where, like, am I angry at God or am I really angry at where this is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a while until you can kind of untangle that it probably feels like both.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, probably it's very much like both are happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know what to change and grow and be better at being parents and supporting one another.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's the case though for pushing your spouse to friendship right there, because if you're not talking, if you're angry, if your life circumstances are super hard, and anyone who has like, you know, their oldest is like nine, like browning probably, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: You and your spouse are in that season of like, oh, this is like, I'm doing my best.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going over the top and you are, too, we both feel unsupported.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like it's a pretty common experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, if you're not making time for friendship, however, like, little that could be, but like, just some anchor of like talking to a friend about it is gonna alleviate the burden so much, especially a friend who'll be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: sympathetic and like hear that like, you know, you're not going to vent to, you're not going to attack them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, it's your, for me, it gives me a space to process and realize I'm actually like I need to limit to God.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to pray.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to be angry and like let that emotion.
[SPEAKER_00]: There have been so many fights that we haven't been able to solve, but a conversation with a female friend have just really moved forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And likewise for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's really good to have a conversation with someone who's just on your side.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and they're for your marriage usually, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not like, rallying your husband, but they're like, oh, that's so hard for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get into this really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think there's a lot of probably questions arising.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll just try to get into the head of some of the fathers and listening like, okay, what is too much to share?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I want to ask this first question.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is too much to share about your spouse?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because like you're using a great example, you're talking about like, well, this thing's happening in our mirrors and is there a line?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and I'm asking, I don't know if there needs to be, but where is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there a line?
[SPEAKER_01]: Should there be a line?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm asking because I think we need a good model of what this looks like, because some might automatically lean to over share and some might lean to protect.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think either are the point and I don't think either are good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's probably a healthy male.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I think you over, yeah, you, you share a little more than you would like with one or two people and share a little less with everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think that's the line because if you're not going deep with at least one other person.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you can be trust to you have a like a trusted friendship with and and it must be for wives, especially it must be someone who's not prone or I guess for husbands to who's not prone.
[SPEAKER_03]: who's four-year spouse too?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's four-year.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It has to be someone who's four-year marriage is health and can take the bad news without judging.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the other person.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I feel like I would be dangerous to not tell.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like your couple people share more than you're coming to with and most everybody else less.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was actually only hearing that question in terms of closest friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just answering in terms of my two closest friends, Matt and Steve, with whom we really basically share everything in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, from finances to internet history to fights and marriage, everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really have a line of like, oh, that's too much to share.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think when we share the most specific stuff in our life, we're actually sharing about our own struggles.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we do, we do share about our marriage struggles and fights.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if that's because Matt and Steve know me so well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was going to say we really.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like I like Matt and to college with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we had a friendship before just now we're married.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, so like I've known them for 20 years, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would actually say I so appreciate those guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually think it's harder for the people who know you like that to actually still before you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's easy for somebody who doesn't know you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to be like, well, she might mean this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's been so helpful and this is a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a blessing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can work at cultivating the blessing, but it is a blessing to have friends that are so close that they know your wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know you and you can basically talk about everything and they'll be for both of you and they'll hear it all out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we have been kept safe by relationships like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of our victories of refights in marriage have been one through the body of Christ and having friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like you have to cultivate that intimate vulnerable community to live in.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're doing that upstream work of friendship so that you can have that downstream effect of, oh, that saved us from a really tough season.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that saved us from drifting apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I tell parents this all the time because like they want to buy books on how to parent, but they want to defer thinking about friendship and like the first thing you lose when you start parenting, but it's the first thing that you need is for your kids and for your marriage, so cultivating those deep relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people are like, I'm going to go talk to a therapist, maybe first, and I actually think if you haven't tried a deep friend or you don't have a friend like cultivating that friendship first, I'm not against therapy, but I do think there's a lot of benefit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or like, I mentioned my older friend, Sister and Christ from our church.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't wait for a marriage ministry, a mentoring ministry to come by me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, like, texted her in desperation was like, can we meet?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm having a hard time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Turns out, most older saints are like happy to, you know, in our little more flexible, because she's an empty tester.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in my house while I'm folding laundry and give me incredible wisdom and perspective on marriage, because she's been married already at that point for 25 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wasn't isn't she the same one that told you to take your anger to God?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's big enough to take care of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was that person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of the couple where one of the spouses, because before I ask this question, one caveat, couldn't agree more with what you just said about the fact that your friends know you is helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: My dear friend Ben, he's known Elizabeth, he's known me since we were 13.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been along the whole process.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was best man in my wedding.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has known her, almost as long as he's known me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's a very important thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I am honest with him about our struggles, where she's fall short, when I'm fall short, he never takes sides.
[SPEAKER_01]: He listens objectively.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're an idiot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, yeah, she's probably feeling a lot from this, like, but it's never taking sides.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always objective, kind, wise, you know, loving wisdom.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the couple that's maybe younger, you know, we got a lot of young dad's listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're having kids for the first time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, I really want this community, I want to share all this stuff with these dudes who are maybe new to life and I want to tell them how my wife's just being so dumb about this stuff, you know, like maybe that's your narrative, because you're having some frustration, you're like, okay, this is my time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the the the wife, you know, maybe is feeling like, I don't want you sharing everything about our marriage with these guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we say to those people?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree what you're talking about absolutely needs to happen, but we have to also agree that that probably takes time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do we say, maybe what is the encouragement to get you from a place of like a weight, like against your husband sharing that idea or like real life in some of those dynamics with friends, how do we get from like against it to like warming up to it for it?
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think, I mean, I think I relate to this more because when we moved to Richmond, I didn't have any good friends here, Justin did.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had like life on friends.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I know, I knew some, but it was mostly all the dudes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I got, I've now, you know, I got to know his their wives and over the past years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of them have become some of my best friends.
[SPEAKER_03]: And
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, I mean, I think this is like definitely true of like play day.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like meeting up the playground.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like if you're in a really desperate spot, you do need to kind of put a filter on.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't want to accidentally end up like oversharing and like slamming your husband and we're grudding what you said in front of people that you've only hung around with like six times in a small group.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, if you're in that place where you're like, oh.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just, you know, you need to make time for one and one hang out with someone.
[SPEAKER_03]: They can take a risk and take that next step.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, I think to that young dad, it's like, well, don't share it in the group setting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, start to cultivate a coffee.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Get a beer, get a good coffee with one, one guy and start to build up to that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you find yourself like me, I'm a verbal processor.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm more prone to be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, this happened this morning and I'm so upset from the fight last night.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like then you need to like he's hard to be around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I've been around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to like, yeah, I'm a bit much.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're a bit much.
[SPEAKER_03]: You gotta like give know that about yourself and like make it a party and build some time in and get up early or stay open.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I would, you know, when I was having really for a time, I was just like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I was asking people to sail later and I was shorty my sleep because I was like, I need to talk about some stuff and take that next step with one or two people and it made, you know, trying to fight the temptation to trash someone.
[SPEAKER_03]: This important and if you set that tone that friend is that newer friend is probably going to respect that boundary.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to chime in here because actually this is not a distinction that I think and talk about enough but I think you're making a really, really important one.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the best pieces of advice I ever got on marriage was my mom talking to us right before we got married.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, I've made a commitment never to speak badly about your father and public.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by that, she means you speak well of your spouse around other people in sort of you're saying that playground setting or that conversational setting or even in a friend setting, you know, you have to have the maturity to be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: He is doing this thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is really hard for me, and I think he's wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's still, that's not being badly of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's two, there's two different settings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love my mom's advice of I speak well of my spouse in public.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, there are private conversations with close friends that I have in mind when I'm talking about most of what I talked about for the past, what we've talked about for the past 10 minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about vulnerable friendships where you are practicing the gospel wisdom that you can be fully known and fully loved at the same time, faults and all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I might take a lot of good build up to that if you could start.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is a space there where I can still speak well of Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually think it's really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even when I'm sharing our toughest fights, I am not trying to speak ill of her.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I am trying to be honest with my friends about what we are struggling with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that certainly comes with telling actual facts with what we're struggling with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not speaking ill of her and saying like, I'm not saying
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you believe that she said this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, can you believe that she was like taking sides?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying we are really struggling.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's saying this and she did that and I'm saying this and I did that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's that I think every couple needs to be okay with that sort of honesty about their marriage with other close friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think every couple needs to be so vigilant that you speak well of your spouse in public.
[SPEAKER_00]: And these both of these things can be true with the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's true for our kids too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually think that's a big temptation to like say more.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, oh my gosh, like, yes, this is a big deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, when they're toddlers, they don't understand, but it happens sooner than you think.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, I mean, I've been guilty of this and I've had to repent and get better at it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've like, they are making my life miserable.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're doing these things.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're over there punching.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't believe how mad they are and just come.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a difference in tone when I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: it's really hard for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it turns out they need a parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's why God gave them to me, but it's really hard to really, you know, I'm having a really hard time because they're being so bad or it's just the tone shift and it's like if you're in a group with other parents, it can be easy for it to turn into a complaint.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are complaining a lot about the kids other people's really damaging to your kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it says something about you is a part you just said it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It turns out they need a parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's their children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like when when we are trashing our kids or complaining about them in that way, it shows that we've forgotten something fundamental about who we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is that that's why God put us here to care for these children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that is your glory and your gift that you get to shepherd
[SPEAKER_00]: These fools, like they like us are both in centers.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to have a great help.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what you're here for.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think complaining about them is it suggests that we've forgotten that being honest about our struggles suggests that we're trying to figure out how to do that well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like that goes to like diagnoses, like I just feel like that we need to be a little bit more careful about the way we talk publicly about our kids as a culture right now because I feel like we're not doing them any favors with labels.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean there are there are private conversations there and there's like you know groups of any size and like we I mean Bible causes to be really careful with our for our words because they have power and I think we need to be careful about.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is, yeah, how does God see this child and what is their potential in private settings honest with the struggles?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I, for me, as a verbal processor, I think this looks like both in as a release to like archmarriage dynamics, but like hard parenting things is like, kind of like having the space to come around to that, with a one-on-one conversation or a one-on-two with trusted friends, with girlfriend, so I've built that rapport with, is like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Vinting in a way, but they know I'm gonna come around and be like, yeah, and it wouldn't be great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wouldn't it be great if God changed my circumstances, but that's not what I'm called to.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm called to like, trust and Christ in the heart part of these circumstances.
[SPEAKER_03]: And can you believe a circumstance?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and it's like, I'm going to, and it's like, I'm going to, and it's really helpful, though, to like, have that safety to be raw with somebody.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they know I'm gonna come around to, and I'm not gonna trash them in front of.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the pickup line.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to be like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of times I feel like I give other moms freedom when I'm like vulnerable like they're like I'm having a hard time with his aggression and like well this thing that I don't use the name.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this thing when happened with my health and it's like there are moments you can do it and like leaving out their names if you have more than two children is very
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember that scene in Moonrise Kingdom where I can't quite remember, but it's like, one of the characters is having a flashback to his house.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think where he comes back to visit his parents and he finds like the book they have, like, how to deal with a difficult child.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's a girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about that often because I want to help my children by being honest about the struggles we have with other people.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I never want to them to feel like they've walked into a room and found a book that I like have, like, how to deal with the difficult child.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, as if they're like, oh, is there something wrong with me that everybody else knows that I don't know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, again, art, not science, but I think we're trying to serve our kids well to help them know that more
[SPEAKER_00]: more than not, they're in the boat that we are in together, broken centers in need of a savior, and we're trying to be that as a parent, but we're also trying to let them know that just like we're broken and holy loved, they are broken and holy loved, they're not the strange, difficult child that needs expert help nearly so much as they are the beautiful human being that is dearly loved by their mom and dad and dearly loved by God.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and this is a key distinction between, you know, sometimes you need to chill a child, something, you know, in a private conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's different even than in front of their siblings.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and a lot of this, you know, a lot of this conversation, obviously we're, we're diving in of marriage and parenting because this is our world.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I want to end because we could talk all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really, and we actually do a lot of the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know we could really, truly go all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have two questions for you guys, and I want each of you to answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's there's simple, but I also think just to give some encouragement and to give some perspective because I think sometimes we there's this there's assumptions we we have within these questions, but I want to ask whoever wants to go first what is your favorite thing or one or two favorite things about your marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want you to go first.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I actually, I want you first.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the romance of the mine with Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that Lauren is a fiercely intelligent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I, you know, enormous reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: And someone I can talk to about anything and everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's going to have incredible feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like, you ask me what I love.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not prescriptive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just love that we have a rich conversation and reading tradition because there's so much else in marriage that is wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love our emotional intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about that all these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just gonna say, this is intelligent, this is, there's so many things like, I'm so grateful for our sex life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful for our emotional intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful for our spiritual intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: But one of the things that I just particularly enjoy and love is that we both need and think and talk and dream together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that happens in all areas of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one of my favorites.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you see what we could say too?
[SPEAKER_00]: So whatever you want.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a two questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just hope I was allowed to keep going or if it's the one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think because we want to honor Lawrence perspective, do you want to do another one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do another one, quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the second thing I love is I do, I just do love how hard she works at being a mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I think she'll be the first to admit that she wasn't the kind of mom that was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait to have kids and be so natural this and then on top of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: She got all boys and then on top of that she got very boy boys and then on top of that when you put them all against each other It's like a frat house really quick and so she just constantly been on the back of her heels And then there's birth injuries and there's only all these things that made us just you know very like you don't feel like You're you're cut out for the task that the Lord gave you and yet you have worked so hard at like she's such a fighter in that sense to figure out how to
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean it, um, and I like that you fight openly and honestly like we talk as you've heard in this conversation like some of this is like We're processing a real time like yeah, or they didn't have it together.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no No, and that's what I would have looked like.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's why I love Lauren is she's not going to lie And she's not gonna let me lie even if she's not so you're not all my books and and it's like that story is that's not quite how it happened or she's like that
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I think that I'm telling the truth to be clear, but she'll be like, no, it was, it was rougher than that, you know, you're probably gonna be honest about the incredibly difficult task of being a mom, of being a wife, of parenting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is so helpful because no one's helped when we lie.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one's helped when we hide what it actually looks like to be a center.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's helped when we talk about what it actually looks like to wrestle through life because that's when you can actually see the grace and providence or it work and it's really not us doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you you modeled that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I do another one?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just kidding.
[SPEAKER_00]: My turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Lawrence turn.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say it's your courage and I would put it like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have always been one who's willing to take the conversation into a deeper place with me with others.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've always been the one who's willing to
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you're the first mover, you know, like with your friends seems like let's take this deeper.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's be real.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's be vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: With our boys, like you get ahead of me on things, I don't have to think about all their conversations that need, you know, I'll be like, I'm so stressed about this and you're like, I've already had those conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't know that?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm on that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not talking about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he could do better on telling you about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the older boys get the more and he's on point.
[SPEAKER_03]: They go to him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is great.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a beautiful thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And with me, yeah, like you are not afraid.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like every time we have a dinner party,
[SPEAKER_03]: You tell people where to sit, because you want it to be a rich meaningful conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not afraid to be present to lead, you're the first to stand up to give a toast at a wedding and it's always the best toast.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were doing that group, okay, when we met in Tennessee, you did a toast for something.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, when we toasting, like, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was amazing, it was so helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You slowed down the whole moment, and it was super meaningful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen this in action.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just say, in powerful.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the courage to bring depth and meaning to situations where people are afraid of being awkward.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not, I mean, I know you're afraid.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's why I say it's courage, because everyone feels that tension.
[SPEAKER_03]: You just cross the boundary.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, to go to China,
[SPEAKER_03]: to get back to the other with me when you know what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I want to do while I have one more question, and we'll be done, but the reason I wanted to ask that question is because I want whoever's listening, especially if you're espoused listening, if you're take that example,
[SPEAKER_01]: and ask your spouse what your favorite thing about your marriage is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think we think it, we just don't often say it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is so good for a spouse, even I hope both of you are encouraged right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is like just knowing like, oh, wow, he sees that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a lot of things we see that we don't say, a lot of things we forget to say mean to say, it's not always ill ill will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just sometimes we don't get around to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd say that's the first practice for my next question in my last question and I'll ask you first Justin and then Lauren you can go or you can mix it up however you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: What does Lauren do that makes you feel the most supported?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm debating whether to be honest or not, you know, honestly, I think when your marriage is strong, you go out into the world in strength.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have an incredible tenacity, I'm just speaking as a man as a male, you have incredible tenacity, confidence, courage when you feel like things are strong at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of that is having a good sex life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of that is having like feeling like you're for men like so much of having a good marriage is having good physical intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've always... Yeah, you still connect it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just always felt that you've intuited that this is an important part of marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope that I've intuited that the emotional life is also important.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I so I feel like we're both, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just am always grateful that Lauren, I feel like,
[SPEAKER_00]: She is supporting me by loving me, and all these ways, and I just feel strength.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel sent out in strength by you.
[UNKNOWN]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good, let's say, go.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey guys, she's like, that was like, it's worth it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, let me just say, like, we have, I mean, we have similar, our schedules are different, but I, I, I leave and then I come back home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have what we call reentry plans, which is not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Reentry plan is like, well, what are we actually, you know, getting back into life together?
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've had everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we we talk about it and always on the list at least my list especially is when are we making love like when is the first is it like a immediately when we get home or like 10 minutes after or like the next where are we out with this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be able to mostly get to know
[SPEAKER_01]: All to say, like, it is a part of the connecting, but I'm, you know, joking slash, it's a very true thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the ways you feel supported.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what I hope to just pull out of that for anybody listening, wives if you are listening, whether that makes sense to your brain or body or, or if it makes sense to you, I don't even think that's the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I love about what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not, you know, you even kind of said it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the goal.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that to you, you're like, I don't need this half as much as he does in this moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, but being able to, that's the whole gospel piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how can we serve each other with what our actual needs are?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I just wanted to highlight that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to Lauren, what does Justin do that makes you feel the most supported?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think, well, the first thing that comes to mind is how he makes me feel supported as a parent, as part of it, and it's just like that he is, it's not all up to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: that he is really taking an active and intentional and an initiative to think over what our boys need and how to disciple them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that looks differently than I would come up with things, but I think that gives me so much peace to be like, he is on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like he cares about them.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, just because, like, as a woman, you just can't not think about your kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, when we get together with moms, it's hard for us to talk about anything else.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's not, you know, I have a lot of friendships and like we have a lot of shared interest and it's just someone has to turn the conversation away.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so like in my brain, you know, just for him for me to be like, he, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I do feel really supported in that way and just that like he's giving it as all as a dad, just like, so I think especially because of the book, because there are all boys, it's like he is being, yeah, you're leading them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're, you're that, yeah, and then I think,
[SPEAKER_03]: Just like for me as a person is, yeah, he's so, you're so encouraging to me, like you're always, I'm a big fan.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm really hard of myself and he's good about challenge me out of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'll be like, I'm the worst.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying, Emma.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, Emma, I'm the best.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk bad about my wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: I say he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's saying he's
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and also like just makes everything fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: He brings it fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, add a boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, this isn't as a seven, sometimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is just, yeah, I mean, unloading the dishes in our houses now touched down passes with the glasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is what touched down passes with the glasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we have Mason Jarrett.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I say, who wants to help me unload the dishwasher?
[SPEAKER_00]: No one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I'm out.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, he wants to catch touchdown pass.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's there will be a fight over who gets to catch the glasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll take him out of the dishwasher.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're literally doing the glasses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I mean, it starts for this reason.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually don't break a lot, even if you drop them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not gonna be amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Real fun, if there's not real risk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so, it's like, don't drop the touchdown past, dude.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is fourth quarter.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a lot of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're getting so into unloading everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything is like, I mean, but for me too, you know, he's like,
[SPEAKER_03]: He just every situation, you're unfazed by challenge, by chaos, by noise.
[SPEAKER_03]: You were like, we are here, like, let's make it fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's make it a good, like, let's be at peace.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, it could be so much better.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're like, well, let's, yeah, I just contentment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like, you've had to fight for that equanimity.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the Christian number two there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know you've had to fight extra hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, like, when you bring it, I'm like, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because I might, you know, my default is like if things are not right I'm it's just a loss I'm just gonna talk it up today's a bad day
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually going to die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what's happening?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the only option.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've learned I'm feel so supported when you walk in and you're like, like, because I've been like, trying to get the boys on the dishwasher for years.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now, like, he's like, well, now, now they do it with you're not there.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't know this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whitney Ash, like, when I give them that chore, like, one of them will be like, they don't talk that much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, they're like, I have the dish chore you want to come help me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be spending money buying the glasses.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think in one sense, $10 on glasses and mom's entity, totally worth it, and you know my hope maybe just to put a ball in this couldn't be more happy about this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really think, you know, the hope with this today was just to simply give some real life, maybe even behind the scenes of the reality from both perspectives,
[SPEAKER_01]: of what what marriage is like the messiness of a family and, you know, your story, what I love about and thank you for your vulnerability and honesty.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a window into so many different people's lives as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I hope whatever was, you know, whatever came up for you as you were listening to this, apply some of the stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe for some of you, it's touch down passes with the glasses, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: make that a thing like that's amazing and I've you know majority girls have one boy and three girls and the funniest part is like What motivates my girls this is gonna let's make you so angry is a chore chart.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so my lesion my two daughters my two youngest ones We made a chore chart.
[SPEAKER_01]: I Didn't even tell them that we were enforcing it Elizabeth was out of town because her lovely language is isolation and loneliness and no
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I'm just kidding, her lovely was just like she just wanted to, we get, you know, a couple days away.
[SPEAKER_01]: She loved it for 40th birthday.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wanted to go away.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, totally get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't, she printed these out before to present them when she got back to kind of put in the rhythm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just left them on the counter unintentionally.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's a corporal punishment.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they're like, no, I mean, there are at moments, but not with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they look at the list and they can read.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, hmm, it says I have to like get up and make my bed and get ready and brush my hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And empty the dishwasher.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I never even told them the first day slow in my youngest.
[SPEAKER_01]: She comes.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like and she's all dressed.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has her hair versus like what's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, well, I got ready because the church heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I emptied my half of the dishwasher because the list and I think I'm ready to go for the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we need to stop talking about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're getting a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's one highlight with my 10 really bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Following them around the house, like hitting them on the butt with the church heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, truly different I'm telling you one very easy slash comical thing that is so in juxtaposition to what you're talking my son's a similar way so it's okay if I'm still at he's 16 like broke you know she's like I got other stuff she was like actually the only thing you get to do now is the whole dishwasher so please just do that but you know we're at that weird stage where no matter what your where the kids are take whatever you got from this and
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just encourage you to emulate a lot of what you heard today, just taking the time to figure out how to serve one another.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys so much wisdom and so much care and even just speaking life to one another, what is your favorite part of your marriage?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important to remember that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
[SPEAKER_01]: Lauren, thank you for being the first female voice on the intentional fatherhood podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being a part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, if questions are stirred, send them to hello and intentional fatherhood.org.
[SPEAKER_01]: But thank you both for today.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're my favorite one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Likewise.