[SPEAKER_02]: 37 years ago today, on January 24th, 1989, serial killer Ted Bundy was executed.
[SPEAKER_02]: The night before his execution, he gave his last publicly recorded interview with the founder of Focus on the Family, Dr. James Thompson.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now a couple of months ago, and you've probably already seen it at this point, I decided to put together a video that talked about the connections between Dr. James Thompson and Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to know how these two ended up in a room together,
[SPEAKER_02]: And why doops and of all people got this access to Bundy in his final hours?
[SPEAKER_02]: I decided to reach out to an expert to talk about this, and I ended up contacting Kevin M. Sullivan.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's the author of the Bundy murders, a comprehensive history, and we ended up recording for what became a 20 or 30-minute segment that I released a couple months back.
[SPEAKER_02]: But beyond that conversation, we talked for almost two hours about all things Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He talked about some of the most surprising things he found in his research.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about the multiple portrayals there have been in biopics about Bundy, and he talked about some common information about Bundy that a lot of people get wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: I figured it was time that I share that full uncut conversation with all of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: This one goes beyond the religious abuse that I've talked about, although my section where I do talk about Dobson with Kevin is in this episode, but we also talk about a whole lot more.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're fast-hand by true crime or if you've ever followed the Bundy story, this episode will be really interesting to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, it's about two hours, it's our full conversation, and I hope you really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kevin, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's been, I told you before he recorded and my audience has already heard it in my introduction, but it was a wild road that led me to this conversation, you know, we, we often find ourselves going down odd rabbit trails and Googling our way into a really bizarre story.
[SPEAKER_02]: This happened to you in a big way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you've written 18 books seven of those about Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you first sat down to write your initial book on Bundy, did you think that you'd
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, in fact, I never had any intention of writing about Bundy, but I happened to have a friend who knew Jerry Thompson, who was a lead investigator for the Bundy case in Utah, and that's how I came to write this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, but after I finished the book, and I started in late 2006, well, actually I started it in, yeah, late, I'm sorry,
[SPEAKER_01]: the fall of 2005.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I finished it in the summer of the late summer early fall of 2008.
[SPEAKER_01]: And once I was done with that book, because the way I wrote it, and I crammed it with facts, and I was fortunate enough to discover a lot of new information that was
[SPEAKER_01]: that has been validated, but it never had published before about the Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So after I was done, I was happy to be finished with the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to go back into the Bundy and that dark chapter of all the murder and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was able to do podcasts or and then when, you know, people would start contacting me from document, you know, documentarians, which happened a couple a few years after
[SPEAKER_01]: people in the U.S., and I've been on a lot of these shows, all that's fine, but I've never had the intention of writing anything more about Bundy, but in 2015, there were a couple people that I knew that had become friends with one of whom, as the way that was essential to a certain section of the Bundy story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her name was Lorraine Fargo, and she was the one
[SPEAKER_01]: They had their last conversation right before Kathy went in at or you in Corvallus went into the it was like about 11 PM the cafeteria and ran into the bunny and off she went with him and that was my so I got to know you know Lorraine we became friends and I didn't I wasn't able to interview her for the book you know my book the bunny murders which was
[SPEAKER_01]: publish as I say in 2009 because it was her son who found out about my book later after I think it's 2010, told his mom, his mom contacted me and it was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she died and then another, one of the main detectives Jerry Thompson was already having some real issues in his life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, you know, if I'm ever going to revisit this case because I've already been getting
[SPEAKER_01]: contacts from other people that have validated, who knew Bundy and they had these interesting stories that I was sitting on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, well, I could do this one more time, make it a smaller book and put in all these new testimonies I have and then just write about some things and put in some of the case files with people which people enjoy and do a commentary on it and people will like it and it again for the second time I found that a lot of
[SPEAKER_01]: were new with these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I thought surely that's it, but people kept contacting me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would sit on these testimonies for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it turned out that I ended up writing seven books, totally in some 1,600 pages or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I haven't done anything since there with Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've moved on to different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just completed a book on the
[SPEAKER_01]: which I'm writing the proposal for now and I've got a couple more I want to do in that genre and I've got another crown book I want to do in the south side of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to think beyond that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never had any intention of writing anything about bun the after the first book was published.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think there's so much that
[SPEAKER_02]: isn't out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when you sit down and because I mean he's one of the most notorious serial killers, there's been a lot of material put out about him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even while he was committing crimes, there was a ton out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think there were so many rocks left unturned when he sat down?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it's just because of the amount of crimes he committed?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it's because there wasn't an understanding of the public's interest?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like why do you think there was so much left?
[SPEAKER_01]: In my case, contact, start contacting the lead detectives when I decided to start the research just a couple of years before Bundy's 20th anniversary.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the book came out in 2009, he was put the death at 89.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was a 20th year anniversary of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Never remember, when I talked to some of these detectives, almost 20 years after the fact,
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them were willing to talk more about it and tell some things that they weren't comfortable with telling that we're not necessarily a part of the actual record, but just things that they had talked with about Bundy and some things, for example, Michael Fisher, who was the lead investigator out of Colorado, who worked through the Attorney General's Office, and he
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he would tell me some things that weren't necessary to put in the record, like for example, about where the location of one of Bundy's victims is buried.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her name was Julie Cunningham, and he said, Kevin, I don't want to give you the exact location, but I can tell you it's a route.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can describe the area and he did so and already knew that she
[SPEAKER_01]: some things that Bundy told him about the murder that didn't come out in his last confessions, because when when when Fisher was in the confession with Bundy,
[SPEAKER_01]: along with Matt Lindball, who actually handled the local case of Julie Cunningham, he was quiet and he let Matt ask the questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then Fisher went back to see him just two days later, and they had an off-the-record conversation without even Bill Agmar being there or as a dirty which was required in the normal, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some things came out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was more comfortable at that time
[SPEAKER_01]: that aren't in the official record.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's just some other things that people just didn't know about that I was able to get from these detectives that were later validated to be true as a contacted other additional people and talked with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was fortunate when I did it and I'll say this too.
[SPEAKER_01]: People have a tendency at some point
[SPEAKER_01]: with their information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think what happened was is that as I went to others, they made contacts with the ones that I dealt with.
[SPEAKER_01]: They said, this guy is a straight shooter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I had a lot of people open up to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there, you know, I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to watch, but there's a lot of knock-off funny books that came after my book was published and they're usually shorter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I swear to God, you can open them up and they're filled with errors from the first page.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are just knock-off books, but the people that really took the time to do the research, not just myself, but 20 years before Steven MacShow and Hugh Ainsworth with the only living witness, Steve Win and David
[SPEAKER_01]: with Ted Bundy, the killer next store, the fellow that's dead now who worked for the Seattle Times, what was his name?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he did the Bundy, the deliberate stranger.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are in really terrific works, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just so happens, and it's just like the author Stephen Macho told a friend of mine, who was having lunch with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, there's things in Sullivan's book that even I didn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then of course the stuff that came out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And plus I did a lot of something else I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did a lot of ground work on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just again, overturning every stone I could had to find out new information and not taking no for an answer until I met a definite dead end or usually what was the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: It opened up and I found out more information that was validated.
[SPEAKER_01]: could be validated.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's why I think it was the passage of time for a lot of these men.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also really digging into the record.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, too, it's because how I wrote it.
[SPEAKER_01]: In my book, The Vundi Murders, you're kind of like, instead of like doing it like the others are done where certain people disappear and then they might not know who it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's only one
[SPEAKER_01]: From then on, you know who it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go back and do as early years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then from then on, it's like you're with Bundy every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that made a difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how you write books, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: The voice that a writer has.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, it's been really a good seller for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's best, in fact, it's the best selling book I have.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other sell well, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But nothing quite equals this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was told by somebody who is real
[SPEAKER_01]: And when my book came out, he said, this is the kind of book that you'll probably long, long dead, and this thing will be selling and selling and selling.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, and there are something to be said by catching these guys while they're sold a lot because a number of them have passed away now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, that's the story of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I wasn't written about dead, but I happened to meet Jerry Thompson.
[SPEAKER_01]: I happened to have that.
[SPEAKER_01]: murder entity had up on these brought in the my home and and I was able to bring it home and and then he gave me a friend of my gym massy and uh uh one of the green trash bags that bought the carry in the car and I think it was having the one really even meeting Jerry Thompson I used to write for a local print newspaper here in Louisville published a Lexington and then four or five more states called snitch and
[SPEAKER_01]: meaning Jerry would have wanted and I did, I wrote a, you know, I wrote a feature article for them about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't on staff, but I was a contributing writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But something about having that market in my home for a while, and you can see in the Bundy murders, if you people won't be able to see this if they just got the all the more
[SPEAKER_01]: edition or something like that, but on the trade paper or the ebook, you can see a picture of that murder kit in my home.
[SPEAKER_01]: But just having that and having that green plastic bag that Bundy carried where he always, when he left his victims, they were always nude and the only thing here, let remain on them.
[SPEAKER_01]: was maybe a beaded necklace.
[SPEAKER_01]: And forensics wasn't really there, but they could match air sometimes to make it very similar and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he made sure they were avoidable clothing and he would use these glad trash bags to dump the bodies off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, wherever he discarded the bodies, which he either buried, or if he wanted them to discover the, he, the left of
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, Julie Cunningham is an appointment and a trash break and I dumped them all for the good will, maybe a hundred miles down the road.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's what he did.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, this kind of jumps to a question I was going to ask you at the very, very end.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was going to be my closing question.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like we're kind of there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's one thing you say in your book, that's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you say, Bundy probably would have loved the media fascination that there is around him today.
[SPEAKER_02]: He probably would have loved to see the movies coming out.
[SPEAKER_02]: He probably would have loved to see people trying to analyze him and figure out what made him tick.
[SPEAKER_02]: did you feel as an author there's such a tight repeat you alluded to there's very irresponsible people in these spaces who are being intentionally exploitative and just using the name to sell books or to, you know, or not thinking about the victims, not thinking about the people involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: How much did that weigh on you when you first sat down?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what responsibility do you think that you and others who cover stories like these have when they're putting them out into the public eye?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's a razor, I mean, it's a razor's edge in like lionizing someone and giving them notoriety that is undeserving and making them a mastermind or or also just painting like I think you do well in your book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just here's the factual account of what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is what it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you balance that as an author?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had somebody come.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was speaking at a university on Bundy back in 2019 and they came up to me afterwards and they really said they appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They, they, they, they, they were hanging on every word and then they said this, but don't you feel a little guilty for early money off of something this terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, if we weren't paid for what we do, there would not be any crime books.
[SPEAKER_01]: And authors that discover new information wouldn't discover that new information.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, people in the who teach criminology.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's portions of my book, the bunny murders that you can find in abnormal psychology books,
[SPEAKER_01]: that contain information in there from my book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I consider it a win-win.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's you, nobody is saying that these people are good people, they're horrible people, they're terrible people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's people want to know what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's the job of the writer to search out the information and provide it.
[SPEAKER_01]: for historians, but see I think this way too about any historical event that has happened be it more or other things get all the facts you can put them down before I mean, like for examples, I just finished this book on the Second World War.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't tell you how many men that I interviewed said my own children haven't asked me these questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And most of these stories, my father was in the second world war.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've talked to him a lot about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: His brother and uncle were both killed in the war.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you could see the source part of my dad, you know, up until the day died concerning those losses.
[SPEAKER_01]: But most of these guys do not get interviewed.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, all their stories are lost.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a shame.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as a historian, it's really what I am at art.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we should gather that information and put it together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so even if it doesn't show up in book form, if it can be put inside of a place that's looking for interviews like the World War II era, you can, you can, yeah, record it somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a fine line.
[SPEAKER_01]: I present Bondi for the cycle path that he was.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's an,
[SPEAKER_01]: Ter, he was a terrible, terrible man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Too bad he wasn't hit by a bus as he was growing up, too bad, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're looking at a picture of Hitler as a baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really cute, baby, but now check this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a nice moral question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would it been right for somebody to go in with a pistol and shoot that cute baby, eight off Hitler in the head?
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people cringe at the thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no World War II, at least not in Europe, and there's no Holocaust for a certainty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But who would want to kill a little baby?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I see in my book that before Bundy Ever took his hand and made somebody else of a victim, he was a victim of self, of his own circumstances.
[SPEAKER_01]: When somebody's a victim of their own circumstances, you can have pity for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: into a predator, that's where the, that's where the pity stops, you know, and you got to look at them and somebody that needs to be stopped.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was, but, I mean, I'm, I'm a believer in, in the death penalty, not for everybody, not for crimes of passion and stuff like that, but killing a police officer or kidnapping the results in murder or mass murder or some of the like what Bundy did.
[UNKNOWN]: Do
[SPEAKER_01]: Man slaughtered, but should Bundy have been executed?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the morally right thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why should people pay some of these guys do it in early 20s and 30s for the next 50 years?
[SPEAKER_01]: Three hots in a cot, all the medical care they need, and most of all, they get to breathe and experience life while their victims are in the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: And although some family members of victims,
[SPEAKER_01]: say, don't execute these people, it's rare.
[SPEAKER_01]: What execution does for the family members is that they get to let it go.
[SPEAKER_01]: These people are making statements anymore in the press.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just something about it equally now, but
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I know that's probably gonna while some other people that list the press on executions, but just what if somebody's really guilty of heinous crime?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, okay, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was on a rate, I called into a radio show one to a woman who didn't want to have any kind of execution no matter what.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, let me guess if Hitler were to have been captured, you would go ahead and give him three hots in the cot for the next how many of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, I don't want to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know why she said, I don't want to talk about this, because the absurdity of keeping someone alive, that evil is basically atrocious.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do believe in the sanctity of life, but I think what you start doing certain things, that sanctity goes away, and you need to be put down.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want a house, and we'll probably go one day and they're just housing these people forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the only detriment there
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Monday, what have gone to to a gen pop or the general population, I'm sure he would have been killed.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, but that's kind of my feelings of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when somebody says, do you think you're all the right to stuff down?
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't you feel together?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't, I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: We shouldn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, this is no different than what reporters do at newspapers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, although their stuff is printed once and that's it and they move on to the next story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I think it comes down to the portrayal, you know, it's like, it's like, how do you write it and listening to your book?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can say, and this is all subjective, but I think you handled it very well and I listened to it and felt, you know, again, I think the best way I've ever heard this said was like you can explain someone's behavior, but it doesn't excuse it and I think there's elements of that and childhood where you go, okay, you can you can have that.
[SPEAKER_02]: that sympathy for this moment, you know, for him.
[SPEAKER_02]: But by the time, I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: really early on in your book.
[SPEAKER_02]: That switch flips and it's done.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you're looking and going when will this guy be stopped, you know, and and and horrifyingly, it obviously took a very very long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do want to ask this before I and then I'll get through some of these stops and questions and then we can circle back to some of that early childhood.
[SPEAKER_02]: But
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that's like really interesting to me, whenever I got to interview, I just throw myself into the subject.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've read a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've watched a lot interviews.
[SPEAKER_02]: I read your first book.
[SPEAKER_02]: I watched three film adaptations about Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: one of the things that's really interesting and often criticized and fictional portrayals of Bundy is that he's often portrayed as some kind of mastermind or genius.
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone critiqued the Zac Efron version saying it was like catch me if you can.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Spielberg film but about a serial killer.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I read your book,
[SPEAKER_02]: He didn't come off to me as like some mastermind.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seemed like it was with law enforcement.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how do you view Bundy going so long?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it systemic failure?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it his own cunning?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you categorize Bundy in that regard?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Bundy had phases.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was never better at murder than when he committed the murder's in Washington state.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the reasons for that, there's actually a couple.
[SPEAKER_01]: Plenty knew the area of Washington state very well.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just really did just to confirm because it's not top of my Washington was where his first murders were, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, just to give everybody just a brief thing, it's Washington state.
[SPEAKER_01]: He made it so hot.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had the travel to Utah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Supposedly to go to law
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he made it so hot there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had to start leaving, didn't leave the state, but he went up, started killing in Colorado.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he would kill other also in Idaho to do women.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so yeah, so he was never better at murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I say, there's two reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: One, he knew the area as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: He knew where he wanted to pick a dump site where he could take the bodies to once he was finished.
[SPEAKER_01]: a really strong successful at this, even though we don't want to use that word, in planning on how to abduct and kill.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said once, I never wanted to be seen taking somebody and just meeting them and having them carry his books or whatever and letting somebody see
[SPEAKER_01]: So he tried to really be careful, and Bob Keppel said, and he's right, Keppel told me this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, Bundy, and Keppel's the investigator, main investigator in Washington State.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Bob told me he said, this is a guy who thinks about murder 24, seven, and he really did.
[SPEAKER_01]: He still had another life,
[SPEAKER_01]: And he did kill once or twice before 1974.
[SPEAKER_01]: But something psychologically happened to him, what I call at the dawn of 1974, when he knew he was going to go into what I call for full time murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would keep up the facade of his political campaigns for a while,
[SPEAKER_01]: member of the public and party and he had a lot of friends and they would work in the party and he would keep up, you know, dating his girlfriend, let us know that stuff, but things were going to radically change and you can see how money did change and what happened was he started killing and walking at state and that but he was still very careful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he started to let some of this other stuff go, political, e-campia committee murder on any women and doing everything else that you normally do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to start cutting away, but he was still very, very careful.
[SPEAKER_01]: But even in Washington State, what I call the monster with occasionally come out to where he almost could not control himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this happened with him and his girlfriend
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, and people can read all about that in my books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to belabor things that maybe they've already heard or read about it or whatever, especially if they've read my book.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, he went to Utah and he was almost as good a killer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he didn't know the terrain.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first semester he was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He spent a lot of time trolling.
[SPEAKER_01]: As far as we know, even though he arrived there on September 3rd,
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put it this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was getting adjusted one able to kill his first victim until the eight, um, well early October.
[SPEAKER_01]: And um, he, I have since discovered women who I've been able to validate that had run in with him in September.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they live near him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really just amazing because you can see that he started his hunting close to where he lived, which is not the smartest thing to do, but that's what he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he didn't start really getting on his role to kill him until the following month.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe late in the month.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the bottom line is, as maybe October 18th was the first, I can't remember it, I have to check my own book.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was still a pretty well put together killer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you could see some real descending when he finally reached the place where he had a skate from Colorado twice because he was on trial for the murder of Karen Campbell, a nurse that came with her boyfriend and two children to snowman's village and was abducted by a bunty, and murdered.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the time he escaped Colorado because they couldn't do their job, they had a bunch of Houston cops watching him, he's got whites and got the Florida.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was unrecognizable as the man he was earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at the just I'm telling your audiences so they'll know how he descended and was going under going to melt down.
[SPEAKER_01]: When he did the attack at Kyle mega
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not the ammo, it was a rampage.
[SPEAKER_01]: He attacks four coes, killed two, seriously injured two, but it was all, what was that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all that murderous pent up energy in him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He hadn't killed in a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was also undergoing what I said about the meltdown.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't careful, he wasn't careful like he used to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: and the same kind of thing happened when he tried to abduct another woman in Florida, which I interviewed for one of my books, um, she said he was unkempt and, you know, and in Washington State, he could draw women to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he was dancing at Sherrods, or some people down there pronounce the charades in Florida, no longer there, but it was right next to the Kyle Mega House.
[SPEAKER_01]: The women, if it's so him that night,
[SPEAKER_01]: He really turned him off, not with anything he was particularly doing, but his eyes were weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't have that attractiveness to him anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a weirdness and people that the detectives interviewed later saw that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is all that dissent, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the time he got the Florida, he was separated from all family, all friends, and what
[SPEAKER_01]: is to keep killing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It isn't that unbelievable, but that's what he was about.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what he was about.
[SPEAKER_02]: the kio mega section of your book, I think is the the most harrowing for me when you're reading it because you can see you talk about the mask of sanity in the book, you know, that's that he wore and seeing it slip completely off in that moment where, you know, it was a mask.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he was insane from the beginning, but he had a charm, he had a way that he could talk to
[SPEAKER_02]: that he totally just discards that for this and just is storming through this sorority house.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such a disturbing account, you know, and so violent and I want to come, I want to come back to that section and talk a little bit more about that because I wrote down quite a bit about it because it stood out to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do want to talk a little bit about his final days really quickly.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he, I told you already, and again, I've already told my audience how I came across in a roundabout way that his final interview hours before his death was with James Stopson.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't cover this in your first book in in great detail, but I'm curious, you know, what that, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: how that came about, who floated that conversation happening in the first part.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard that Bundy specifically asked for Dobson.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard that Dobson reached out and pushed his way in for the media.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard that John Tanner arranged this, like who coordinated this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It has like a must-in-year research.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: It could have been Tanner because he was working with Tanner, who was a minister, and,
[SPEAKER_01]: Tanner's wife was there too, and she's so they worked, you know, bunny work with him, but it had one thing, the only thing I was able to discover about that, it was Bundy's final decision that he wanted to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I have a feeling having watched that as a young minister, not a writer, back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing that I thought of because I've been reading about
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Bunty's snowing dobson.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's he's a boy and smoke.
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't real.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, all bunty's friends who heard some of the things that Bunty said, Oh, that's a lie.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when he talked about hard pornography, changing him and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, pornography, hard pornography will any kind of pornography will take a young man who views it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he wants to have sex with females.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just, yeah, I mean, that they'd go, that's great, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great, but it doesn't lead people to call off a woman's head.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it doesn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just doesn't have the power to trans.
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of stuff to make Bundy what he was was Bundy's internalization of violence from the time he was young.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he himself told Ron Holmes, the late Ron Holmes, criminologist here in Louisville, known all over the United States.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I started finding these, when I was 14, these detective magazines.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember the detective magazines.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were all, oh, they were five or six of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had been started in the 1940s.
[SPEAKER_01]: They continued for many, many, many years after funding, and then they're all gone today, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you'd go in a store, I'd see it with my friends, big, breasted, good-looking women, a drawing of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She but she's got her rope around their neck or a knife is pointed at her or a gun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would think, wow, the lady looks great, but what's up with this violent stuff with her?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so anyway, I had a case in the reader couple of these, they had some really interesting articles,
[SPEAKER_01]: I never subscribed to them or anything like that, but Bundy said those made a real impression on him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And later he told Bill Haguemeyer, he would work out some of the fantasies that he's seen in these magazines with the victims.
[SPEAKER_01]: And more than hard pornography, it was he was really turned on with things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when they found
[SPEAKER_01]: during his escape to Florida before he was arrested, it had a, did it have a Hustle magazine?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it had a cheerleader magazine of like 12, 13, 14-year-old girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why, Bundy admitted the 30 murders, but he's killed more than 30.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: He himself alluded to it in a tape confession,
[SPEAKER_01]: long before the end of life confessions right at the end for it was executed, which I must say during those he was trying to be extremely honest during the end of life confession and of life like that manhouse weak of people coming in the house and like I say on top of that my picture came back to the scene just by himself and he gave Mike and it all appeared in my book brand new information about
[SPEAKER_01]: What he had done to Karen Campbell, what do you thought about it and things like that?
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I did my thing right there in the car.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when Mike asking, did you keep the hotel room key to two ten?
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, he just kept looking down, he wouldn't answer it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, that was a way of letting Mike know he did keep it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and too bad, he was able to destroy these because we,
[SPEAKER_01]: prior to their death, acting out some of these scenes that he had seen in like detective magazines, and then after death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had those in Utah in the utility room like downstairs in the utility room on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a second floor apartment.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the utility room was a sector
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, but the bottom line is, when the assertive's apartment, they took everything they thought was important.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he got out on bail, he told Haymeyer, he said, I took those and I've destroyed them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what would be important to have them is you might find some pictures of women on there that are not known.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you know, even if you could know who they are, but they never talked about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He admitted to Bob Campbell for Washington State.
[SPEAKER_01]: I killed 11, but he only gave the names of eight.
[SPEAKER_01]: He admitted to Dennis Couch, Jerry, by that time, Jerry Thompson, I think, was retired or not retired, but we assigned or something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he told the, you called Detective Dennis Couch, he had killed eight in Utah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wouldn't give more than the names of five.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we know he took some things to his grave.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what that might be?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what he admitted to on one of these tapes, not at the end of life, but like when he was talking to Steve Michelle or somebody else, because there was other people than interviewed him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said that this person, he was speaking the third person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was responsible for either half a dozen
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... pre-team girls or young girls and so bunny didn't like to talk about anybody that he murdered that was really young although he had to talk to the Idaho detectors about limit calver that's another one of the things that found out several things new that never been published before she was out of it all but she was twelve and his last victim can't can't reach out of florida where he uh... nabbed her and likes to be florida
[SPEAKER_01]: She was 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he had to talk about, he didn't talk about Kim Leach because he wasn't going to give the detectors down there any information on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He knew we was going to trials and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he did, but but even at the end of life confessions, it kind of stayed away from that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he did talk about Calber who, again, was 12 years old, but he didn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe he
[SPEAKER_01]: I studied a lot of murders and missing females in the surrounding states during the time that Bundy was active in those states and I came across some things that have the M.O.
[SPEAKER_01]: of of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might not be and we'll never know for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but we do know he admitted to killing more than he admitted to by name.
[SPEAKER_01]: So likely those are young girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: rather than women because they didn't see me after much or a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk to you about the women he killed that were 18 and over.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have some questions about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll definitely get into in a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am curious, like, and you mentioned kind of what my, well, two sides of this one, it's so clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was so clear to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: One dopsom was kind of out of his depth in that interview in a big way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's important to note too.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a psychologist, but he was a child development psychologist talking to a grown Syracuse.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't like his skills particularly transferred to Bundy in any type of way.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I was trying to make that the other day.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said what's
[SPEAKER_02]: What's interesting about Bundy blaming, and he blamed Softcore pornography in the interview, you know, I said, the slippery slope to watching Softcore pornography is you end up having sex before marriage in a Christian context, you know, or you are promiscuous, you know, it's not, oh, I'm like you mentioned cutting the heads off of victims, you know, and going on a serial killing spray.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I'm really interested though in your take on is somebody who's studied Bundy so intensely.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the interview, there's a layer where Dobson is using Bundy as an extreme illustration for his own goals.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: What did Bundy get out of the conversation in blaming all of the, because he had, you know, he kind of sets aside responsibility and points to a lot of things that
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do you think Bundy convinced himself that anybody could have ended up where he was?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think he was just playing to dops and hoping dops and would help be a voice to stay his execution with the governor?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what do you think Bundy or do you think Bundy was just getting the thrill of one last time of deflecting all accountability?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what was going on in Bundy's head in that interview to the best of your understanding of his personality?
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, only Bundy knows, but or Bundy knew,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you see on the outside?
[SPEAKER_01]: My impression of Bundy, and I was a young minister at the time, but my impression of Bundy at the time, and I thought, Bundy, doves and can't see this, this guy's blowing smoke.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bundy looks like he's lying.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, he looks like he's lying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I hadn't studied Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just telling you what I felt from, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: uh, I would tune in once a while on the, when it was broadcast live, when he was on, on, on, on, on, on throughout for the guy on mega murders and the camp, uh, leech murder, but, but not very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was aware of who he was, but when he sat down for that, and I thought this guy is lying to him as I, and I said, and I, and I knew enough to know that pornography is not going to
[SPEAKER_01]: It is something that can warp an individual, as far as, you know, I've talked to people that can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their wives won't do some of the things that you see on that, or.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to wives that they have complaint, and I've read about this too.
[SPEAKER_01]: My husband doesn't want to have relations with me because he's doing this, and it's far more exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: pornography, there are no pluses to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: My point was it just doesn't turn you into that bunny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That happened to bunny because of mixing the sexual for some reason God only knows why.
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's
[SPEAKER_01]: reading and what looking at sexual pictures and wanting to mix the violence with it, which is not what most young boys do, they don't, they just, they're very turned on by it, you know, and that's that's good because that just shows that everything's working properly in them and so, but yeah, but they don't go to murdering women so.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I, even years before I studied Bundy, I thought, well, this guy's snowing, dobson, he must be trying to make himself look better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, as I got into Bundy, this was a common thing with Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was always trying to make himself look better.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, outside of the shock of his initial arrest, he would play to the camera.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was, okay, he couldn't murder anymore,
[SPEAKER_01]: walk around the stage of a courtroom in defending himself or, you know, he didn't even graduate from law school.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he had a fool for a client, meaning money was just a fool for doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the bottom line is he just, I don't believe he thought that the execution was not going to go on.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then he was resigned to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would stay up the risk of that night.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he got much sleep that night.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, by 7 a.m., actually, I don't know, maybe he was up by 5 a.m., probably didn't sleep much at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I wrote in my first book and is about Mike Fisher.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bundie didn't give me all the information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, Ted, you promised me if I came to Florida, he's a Colorado investigator.
[SPEAKER_01]: I promise you, I'll get back with you on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that morning, after he shaved his head shaved and his heinous shelf up with cotton balls, so he didn't make a mess or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's welcome with the award.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I need, do you have a tape recorder?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you bring it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have something I need to give the Colorado investigator.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he made a confession of, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: of the murder of Denise Oller of Oliver Sun, Aldo, Grange-Unction, Colorado, and he also, it's a good thing he did, it reminds us of Spectacle Bundy anyway, but he admitted to the murder of Susan Curtis, 15-year-old, I believe she was, at the time, Aldova, she came to a commerce and had ridg him beyond university in Utah, and he got her at twilight, dusk.
[SPEAKER_01]: and must have tried to convince her to go with him or rocked her over the head or something, but he admitted the killing her too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was the little related.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he did the right thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: He got back with Mike and said, here's the way to the lunch talk about, here's the information on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So from then, he went into the execution chamber and he didn't seem much, but the leading investigator for the Tallahassee police department Don Pachon witnessed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, as soon as they brought money into the room, he looked at me and he waived and and mouth had on and he nodded to the prosecutors and he didn't seem to be holding any kind of revenge feelings against them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just this was where he came to and I said in the book I said He, you know, buddy was entering a vortex of judgment.
[SPEAKER_01]: that was unimaginable at him, when he, for example, whisked Linda and Ely away, carrying her unconscious body out of her dorm in the college area of Washington State University.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we was doing all that stuff back.
[SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't have imagined where this thing was going.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: And let me tell you something else too, I couldn't interview Bundy and I probably wouldn't have my publisher would have probably insisted I do it, but, and then I do it, but I've had a chance to interview killers that that I've written about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no desire to talk to these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know how these people do it when they go in there and they have to be buddy buddy with them and kind of like, you know, to get information.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was real funny because
[SPEAKER_01]: Michelle, Steven Michelle had to put up with stuff from Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he had to watch it and he could do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he was part of you, Ainsworth was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a one point, Bundy said something stupid.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he himself and them over it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of had more like a nature of you Ainsworth.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so I've never even tried to talk to these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would much, remember, have.
[SPEAKER_01]: the interviews of the detectives or those who knew the killer and people that hunted him and people that just ran in him.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's always far better than having because I just really hadn't nothing but the scuss for these individuals.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do you think um because two things you said in your book that are coming to mind right now is you you had mentioned Bundy's mentality was
[SPEAKER_02]: there's lots of people in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if a couple go missing, what's, you know, why would people get really upset about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was in a very psychopathic way of viewing the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's your psychopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckopsyckop
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think even in those final moments, even walking to the electric chair, there was a piece inside of him still taking that was going, something's going to change here, the phone's going to ring, I'm going to be out of this, or do you think he, like you just said, just kind of surrendered himself to you, this is the consequence, because you know, he
[SPEAKER_02]: There were some elements too, like in the last arrest, he was saying, I wish the copy just shot me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think he just surrendered to the fact like, I did what I wanted to do?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's over.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what do you think was actually in his mind?
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, there's no way of really putting yourself in the mind of Bundy, but what do you think he was thinking doing that final walk?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think he was at previous with himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: He knew what was going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: They said he was very
[SPEAKER_01]: told me one day when I was interviewing him on the phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a couple of good phone conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, Bundy asked me once when they were talking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, well, I could just say to God, well, and of course, hey, Mark, yeah, well, I mean, that is something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was on Bundy's mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there are some people that believe through Tanner
[SPEAKER_01]: received him as Savior and Lord.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if somebody does that sincerely, God, Jesus will forgive him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he'll come and put God spirit within your spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you will be as Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again of the Spirit of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, could that have happened the Bondi?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do I think it happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't say, but I would say likely no, but maybe
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, even if it did, should Bundy have ever been now, no, should he have been executed?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think that was fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing wrong if he's really said, let him go home.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think Bundy had resigned himself, no matter what his spiritual state was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he showed that in having no hostility to the prosecutors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then there was also the defense team
[SPEAKER_01]: Annie had no hostility with pension.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it was resigned to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even even I think because this love of murder was so deep in him, if for some strange reason he had gotten
[SPEAKER_01]: then he might have sought help for that, and then, you know, not done it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but we'll never know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people say, couldn't we have gotten more information now at Bundy?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think those end of life confessions and what he told other people in like a third person accounts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think really you've got just about everything that you were going to get from him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was he ever going to tell you the names if you knew them?
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, you mentioned the programs, I've seen a lot of these by the movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've got a lot of pluses and lots of minuses.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you haven't seen the movie, no man of God,
[SPEAKER_01]: you must.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen it?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the three that I watch and it is by far the best, in terms of the actor portraying Bundy, nailing it, and just as a film that is respectful of the, as respectful as you can be covering the material in a fictional way, like I think it's phenomenal, and I second the recommendation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a fantastic film.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and people need to realize when they're
[SPEAKER_01]: The main actor, oh, what's his name, um, he played, he played, uh, hey, hey, Meyer.
[SPEAKER_01]: He lives in Austin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, a ledger would.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: A ledger would spend a lot of time with Bill Haguemar.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I interviewed Bill Haguemar, there was nothing I didn't ask him that he didn't answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he spent a lot of time with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Haguemar gave him tapes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Haguemar gave him other information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm telling you, several things came out during that, that he got this information from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing made up.
[SPEAKER_01]: He got this information directly from Bill Eggmire.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll mention a couple of them here.
[SPEAKER_01]: One was he, when Bill asked him, how many are there?
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how many I killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all kind of blend together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he admitted to having at least several.
[SPEAKER_01]: who like he, ready to do his thing on them, maybe choked him out into unconsciousness and they woke up and maybe a couple of them got away in the woods.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I was getting my tools out of the car, watch, he's like lying down on the ground and she woke up and he said, the ones that got away, I would go, I would leave and I'd be worried.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to say something or are they going to identify me, are they, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after I heard what came out, I said, well, I should've spent more time asking Bill information because he told me a lot of interesting stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like I say, that is the most accurate movie I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I was told by somebody who knows Steven Macho, you know, well, I said, did you ask, you know, my show how he felt about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, yeah, I didn't he said, I couldn't believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I look like,
[SPEAKER_01]: he was sitting there with Ted Bonnie just like what I used to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was amazing and very, very, very accurate.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, yeah, I have to hand it to Elijah Wood for doing it right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they actually played, uh, actually they got, actually they got one thing wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, wait, wait, wait, wait, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they just added it and I think there's something in the opening credits that speaks of just adding something or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when they say that the murder of Lynette Culver when he's confessing and he said I'm drowning in the bathtub that is not in the record.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got that if nowhere in the confession, I got that information.
[SPEAKER_01]: from Russ Renaud, the Idaho investigator, no, from Mike Fisher, he had been told that by Russ Renaud, I called Russ, he said, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I contacted Bill Eggmire, who sat in on every confession, bun the ever made, he said, I don't recall that at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said,
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, Kevin, you do no bunny head and M.O.
[SPEAKER_01]: of strangling the women from behind, well, having sex with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, yes, yes, I know that that was normal M.O.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I have a lot of respect for the detective who told you that, which originally was Mike Fisher, but I don't remember him saying anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't say anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason why they found out this information because if you read the transcript of the confession of the Idaho confession, two things are going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they only have an hour, really fast back and forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Idaho hitchhiker that he killed on the way till all school, on September 2nd.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was the first person to identify that he actually left on the second that it was Memorial Day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think his girlfriend thought he left on the third and most authors say left in early September, but I was able to narrow it down to the second of September.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also not to serve with the killing of this 12-year-old Kim Leach.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when they talked about the hitchhiker, there was cranial damage.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had said in the interview that Bundy had said was a cranial damage with covers and he said something like no, it would be drowning well because he said he put it again the Like a river five miles north of Pokedelo, which would be the snake river.
[SPEAKER_01]: They assumed it was that's how she drowned, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the Idaho investigator, Russ Renaud, being a smart guy, as he walked out of, and Bundy, it said, look, an hour's, after Passover, an hour's not enough if you have any additional questions I'll try to work you in, being really cooperative and honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: As they walked out of the hospital, he said, Renaud said, hey, Randy is co-investigator.
[SPEAKER_01]: Randy Everett, could you go back in and ask Bundy, he said, she drowned, but he never said,
[SPEAKER_01]: even though he said he put her put her in the, you know, river.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Randy goes back in and I've talked to Randy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said this exactly what that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I went back in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, I like this ass, bun the a couple more questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: They put him in a room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Playman Slater 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was like, they brought bun the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no bill.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had to be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no attorney of his to be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just asked him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, you said she dry, you, she drown, but you never said how that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, oh, well, I drowned her in the bathtub.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, every didn't even ask him whether I'm about to say, of his own volition.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, oh, and I had sex with her after she was dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't like to talk about the necrophilia.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would hand in it with Bob Kappel.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he said, so I drowned her in the bathtub.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I call Hague Myr one day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a bill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting ready to write the story
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, in that cover, I had the case while coming to me, but didn't have it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, Bill, the only thing I know about this kid is that she was 12 and Bundy, you know, Goddard and Kilder, and drowler in the bathtub of the holiday in, in, in, in, in, in Bocapello.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where Bill said, well, that's news to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, you know, you should go back and find out about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, if I find anything different, now, at the time of the novice, yeah, Bill said, and I thought, maybe they're wrong about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go back and I finally talk to everyone and Russ Renaud, and he said, Russ, first thing Russ said to me, here's why Bill doesn't know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he wasn't in the meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a special meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to contact Bill back.
[SPEAKER_01]: and said, oh, yeah, it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's why it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's what Randy Everett said.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at the movie, it opens up I'm saying it like he did that in no.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did not, that was all back story stuff that I was able to, I mean, these detectives.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it was the other way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the screenplay, they just condensed all the information.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just condensed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true information delivered in a way that was different than that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's similar to Gacy series has something like that where his lawyer, I'm blanking on the name.
[SPEAKER_02]: here's the scene where he comes out and he tells the two police that are waiting outside his office when Gacy's originally confessing to the attorney and this first time the information's ever coming out and he comes to and then Gacy's drunk and falls asleep on the couch and he comes down and says if he tries to leave in the morning before I talk to you like shoot his tires out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought it was a dramatized line in the show and then I was just hitting every with the lawyer and he said oh, that was my I think it was like his co-count or somebody that was present that's not in the fictional show at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just gave his lines to him and so it's like true, but it's a slightly, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: having talked to Bill Huggmire, every interview was going through him that was involved and I know that's accurate, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he was the one problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had to sit in all of these.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well that's because that's because Boney asked him to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and he would only talk if Bill was there, which is a interesting dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the movie, it makes a big to do about
[SPEAKER_02]: the Dobson conversation happening without bill being involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was that dramatized?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you talk to Bill about like, was he sincerely going or was that?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but I know some of the other investigators were I think a little perturbed because of how much time they were given.
[SPEAKER_02]: Seven hours or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it was, yeah, and really, and really, I just want to say this, I think Dobson was trying to put
[SPEAKER_01]: what he believed was the nail in the coffin of pornography.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if you do this, you're going to end up killing women and cutting their heads off and having sex with them after you're dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, after they're dead, of course, this is not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's sometimes people want to validate their own belief about something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm glad he did the interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad he did exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad Bundy shows himself that he's lying at that point.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anything that he can keep and record for history is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there was an ultimate, I'm on the part of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the part of the Thompson.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it would have been the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was this, it was a desire to really
[SPEAKER_01]: Mixie how bad pornography is that listen when buddy did this all his friends is attorneys.
[SPEAKER_01]: They said this is all BS Funny knows better than this
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Tenet, which I gave a couple pages to in my book, maybe three or four of his interview with Bundy and his assessment of Bundy, he's the one that said, and I didn't know this at the time, I found this out in the research.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the one that said that pornography just doesn't have a power to do that to somebody.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just lacks the power.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just doesn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it can change
[SPEAKER_01]: things and you can become addicted to it without question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but even those that are addicted, don't want to go out in harm women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so we'd have a lot of Ted Bundy's out in the world of harm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we just don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to ask this question as as someone and it's you have an interesting approach to this as
[SPEAKER_02]: a minister during the time this was happening and watching it, seeing the deception side.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, and I grew up in like a very fundamentalist church where, you know, we're talking beforehand.
[SPEAKER_02]: He mentioned talking about Catholic were like, we would look at anybody that wasn't our exact stripe of Christianity is like, you're, you know, you've been going in the wrong bed way, so I wasn't infected by it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and I would say now I'm, I would say I'm relatively agnostic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk to a lot of people like yourself that are religious and, and one of the things that really, just, I, I beer missed not to ask it, some, I saw a comment on a video of Dobson years after the interview and Dobson is saying that, you know, he wholeheartedly believes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll insert the clips.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, you know, this quote is a,
[SPEAKER_02]: abbreviation, what he said.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: He basically said, I believe he, you know, accepted Jesus.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe without a doubt, like sure he murdered some women.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how we started the conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: He said, sure he may have murdered all these women, but I believe he accepted Jesus and he's in heaven basically was the just of his conversation of his statement about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure he killed 28 women, but he is still a
[SPEAKER_00]: And John and Marsha went into that prison for 200 plus hours, and led him into, I think, only God knows, I think a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that's offensive to some people, the thought of Ted Bundy going to heaven, you know, and just that doesn't seem right, does it?
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet the Lord said, there's no sin that he can't forgive.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I believe Ted found the Lord.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two years before he died, John Tanner called me on behalf of Ted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, the Lord is talking to Ted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he feels that he needs to admit his crimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: He needs to give information that will allow the parents and the families of the girls he murdered to know what happened to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: and he needs to confess what caused him he thinks to do this and he knows the press will not allow him to get that message out because they they obviously hated him and perhaps for good reason and one of the comments on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just couldn't help but feel deeply where someone said by Dawson's logic, Bundy who did all this is now in heaven and face no eternal consequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: And some of the victims, if they didn't accept Jesus, you know, is now a hell.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really like, it's a question I wrestle with a lot when thinking about the religious side of this, from someone again, I mean, how do you reconcile that potential conversion, you know, or do you largely just go, I don't believe, Bundy at this point was capable of doing this, like, how do you navigate that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, here's the thing, and I've been on radio shows and talking about,
[SPEAKER_01]: Jesus and Christianity and have nothing to do with true crime and people would say, well, what about the old lady that it's been real good or a lot good people?
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole point of Jesus is, is he who he says he is or is he not?
[SPEAKER_01]: If he is, we says he is and then you all are able to experience him.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he is,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely free and it is not going to be based on what you have or have not done because everything that you've done that has been sin does get washed away by what Jesus did in bringing salvation to people, the great thing is, you know, when I used to do a lot of evangelistic work, I would say to people, we talk, I would go out and that and minister to kids, I used to write in print tracks, I pray I've printed in a 250,000 tracks.
[SPEAKER_01]: We passed them out over years, and I told one kid, I said, listen, I just felt whether it's say this to him, and I'll be saying it sometime, but I said, listen, if you ever want to find out that Jesus is real, why don't you call out to him and be sincere and just say something like this, Jesus, if you're real, if you're really the New Testament
[SPEAKER_01]: then you can obviously hear me.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are the savior of the world and there's only one way to have it and it's through you, then I'm asking you to forgive my sins, to cleanse me of any of my sins and all of it, and come into my life and save me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, why would I say that to somebody?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I got saved, not in church, but I was reading a book,
[SPEAKER_01]: by Norman Vincent Peel, if I thought it had to do with religion, I would not have picked it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was the power positive thinking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in there, people were saying that Jesus was real answers his prayers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to be proven to with a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was 19 years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: And after reading a number of this, I thought,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I, I've been to church some, but I don't believe in Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe, here's what I said to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt this almost like fire burning on the inside of myself and this weight lifted and all of a sudden I'd never read the Bible, but I one thing I knew, this was in February of 1974.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's real.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's actually real.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said that to this guy one day and I said, look, if you'll
[SPEAKER_01]: I know he's real, not because you told me, but because I found out by doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And lo and behold, a couple of weeks later, this kid comes up to me, I couldn't have picked him out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even remember him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, do you remember me?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, your face looks a little familiar, but I talked to a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I believe it, I know he's real, but I believe in the now because not
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have experienced by itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's the thing, if, if, if, okay, you remember all the slave traders, not hundreds of years ago, do you remember the song, you know, who saved a rich like me?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that song was written by a former slave trader, who who found out that Jesus was real,
[SPEAKER_01]: and had such and was thanking God so much that He was a part of Jesus now that He was saved.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was felt such remorse over what He had been a part of.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: When people get saved, when people really are introduced with Jesus and receive Him, it doesn't matter that desperately wicked things they've done or just the common sins they've committed,
[SPEAKER_01]: If he's real, there's constant Nazi concentration camp guards that had been forgiven of their sins and found out that Jesus was real and forgave them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's willing to forgive everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what he told the woman at the well?
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the one thing that finally got into the Bible and bread it that was so convinced about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember when Jesus said to the woman at the well, he said, I can give you water.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're getting water.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to come every day, but I can give you water to where you'll never thirst again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, he already said, you know, call your husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, I don't have a husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've had five husbands and the one you're living with now is not your husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, I perceive that you're a prophet and he said, well, I don't basically have a whole lot more than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you read in that scripture where it says, I'll give you water.
[SPEAKER_01]: to where you'll never thirst again, he's talking about spiritually.
[SPEAKER_01]: And ever since that time, I just turned 70 in February.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got saved when I was 19.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have never doubted him and I've been in the ministry for over 40 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen his hand work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had answers to prayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Other people of answers to prayer, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I had time, I would tell you things that would absolutely astound you.
[SPEAKER_01]: let me just tell you one.
[SPEAKER_01]: My father had a, he's dead now, but when he was in his 60s, he discovered that he couldn't look up anymore without getting really dizzy or even turn his head to either side.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he went to the doctor and, and his arteries, his carotid arteries were very
[SPEAKER_01]: So he had to get this operation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a day or two before the operation, I just had, I was just, I just got now a school by a college.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just have gotten out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know a lot about this, but I asked my pastor and the associate pastor to come with me and pray for my dad.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they laid hands on my father and I prayed to him and I was really letting him carry that heavy weight of this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they asked God to totally heal them of that and to do it in what name, the name of Jesus, that name that is above every name.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when the morning came that he was going to have the surgery, I got there about 630 in the morning so I could be with him before they wheeled him out like a severer.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he said, I'm not having the operation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and by the way, it was three nurses standing in the doorway as the pastor and the associate pastor will pray in for him and two of them didn't look happy at all the other of my little smile on our face.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the doctor said, he must have heard about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He ran one more test on him, and a little doctor test for the karate artist now keep in mind, he's got the ones where all this stuff is in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He came into the my father's room before I got there, waving the report over his head.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, Mr. Sullivan, you don't have the right to have arteries that look like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got the arteries of an 18-year-old.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're absolutely clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there will be no operation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my father was happy about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he never again had any problem looking up returning this head or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: validated miracle from God by two people who lay their hands on him in Jesus' name and that power came in and took it away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I've seen this kind of stuff in the lives of other people ministry from the last 40 plus years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just saying, you don't have to be a minister.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to know if Jesus is real, repent of your sins, ask him to forgive you and come into your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: be sincere, and if Bundy was sincere, he came in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bundy did make a curious comment, several curious comments between the time when he supposedly had this conversion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And right before he was doing these end-of-life confessions, he talks about how horrible these things were and how there's so many things he said, quote,
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things, I've heard all these confessions on tape.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I guess I've heard them off, you know, a transcript, but at one part, you can see him crop, you can hear him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He sees crying.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like he's crying.
[SPEAKER_01]: So was there a transfer?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see, here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: God meets people where they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they repent and receive Jesus, their sins are forgiven.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I was on these radio shows, I said, look,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I get it, evil people, they can get saved and other people that haven't done much in their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and yet they're not going if they have to receive Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you think Jesus said, go out, the fields are wide on the harvest and it's been that way for every generation and listen, a lot of the people I managed to do
[SPEAKER_01]: younger when I was out doing this work, they, they weren't watching these shows on TV.
[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't going to the churches.
[SPEAKER_01]: You kind of get out where people are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk to them of our Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's how the sincere will out other people laugh and they don't want to part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I pray for them to open their eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so what happens?
[SPEAKER_01]: The buddy got sick.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just took advantage of what Jesus said all for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't really have anything to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all these girls say, I doubt it, according to Christian theology, I doubt it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it seems like it's unfair.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for those of us who were in sin and that's everybody, Jesus can wash them away, but it's very difficult for a psychopath to be sincere.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if they are sincere,
[SPEAKER_01]: they too can be forgiven and the proof of the pudding is then in the eating.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the people that Manson, a couple of the people I think that Manson, that were with Manson girl, I am absolutely convinced before this one lady died that she got somebody disease was never allowed out of prison, but she died, but she died a Christian, she was very
[SPEAKER_01]: You could just feel it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just, she was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything she said from then on.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just just, she did the right that she just, two bad that didn't happen to her when she was a young person, like at me at the age of 19, she would have been involved in those murders.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of the way it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I appreciate you answering that, and it's a rock in my shoe, I think, with a lot of these stories, is wrestling with that, and I think, you know, what yourself, I can, I told some of the ideas that I can debate with myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: constantly you know and so I can I can sit there and give the apologetics for the problem of evil you know which is the the go-to line from people you know where it's like they can't believe because there's evil in the world and I can argue both sides of that point with myself and I do a lot and and you know but even with the cases that I do it's it's very
[SPEAKER_02]: it's very difficult to reconcile, I think, the fact that someone like a Bundy could make a death row confession and be cleared.
[SPEAKER_02]: And someone, you know, one of his victims who, you know, was innocent in terms of, especially in terms of comparison.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we look at, like, a Bundy and go, will they
[SPEAKER_02]: deserve the death penalty and they didn't deserve to have a place on this planet, you know, after the things they committed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just something that's, you know, and it's not something I think that's going to be solved in an hour and a half conversation, but it's something, you know, people have been debating these concepts for hundreds of years, thousands of years, but I appreciate answering that and sharing it perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, some day maybe we can sit over coffee and talk about them in depth because I'd love to go a little deeper.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I am curious as we move along here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and I know we're, I know we're getting near the end here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, I do have a couple questions just relating to, um, he's kind of final days here, um, I mentioned, you've mentioned can be lead to the conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously very tragic murder and a long string of tragic murders.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's a one piece of the dobson interview that stands up to me because there's a moment where he's asked about her.
[SPEAKER_02]: He says I don't want to talk about her and he kind of looks up to dobson almost in a like a very blank stare that he always had.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're almost fills.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's going, is he buying this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like does he, is am I getting a pass on this one?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's a lot you can read into the expression and there's thousands of YouTube comments and articles that do.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd mention the cheerleader magazine found in his car at one of his last harass.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know one of his first potential victims is Ann Marie Burr.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of, you know, suggestion that that was one of his victims.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's never been fully confirmed.
[SPEAKER_02]: His last non victim was 12-year-old Kimberly Leach.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think he targeted children and adult women?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it was just indiscriminate?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think his preference was children?
[SPEAKER_02]: But he was settling for adult women.
[SPEAKER_02]: How does that fit within his overall M.O.
[SPEAKER_02]: In terms of Kimberly Beach?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he always preferred adult women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if a child was available, for example,
[SPEAKER_01]: Ted Bundy went up on to poker table, Idaho, the hunt for women on May 5th, 1975.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that it's 180 miles up, I guess, or something like that, but it's a straight shot of line 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, he spent all day and all night trying to get a woman couldn't get it went back to the holiday and ejected it obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why I couldn't have found out
[SPEAKER_01]: Which I had read no reports about this until I didn't desecation it, but there was snow even though it was made May 5th there were and that whole weekend that whole May 5th, six, seven, will there a lot of snow showers in the area cold women are not want to stand around talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Easy on crutches.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm sorry I got to go one of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just couldn't get anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: He basically stumbled on
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where Kim Leech was coming out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also random, also by chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, much by chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was coming out.
[SPEAKER_01]: She came over and talked and lo and behold, he gave her a speel and she got in the car with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't tell us what speel he used, but he does tell us of what they talked about on the way to the hotel room.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're moving on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like your amory bird, which I think he likely killed her and if you had time, I could tell you why I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other last.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he may not, but I think he likely did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was eight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now was there sexual stuff involved probably not could be?
[SPEAKER_01]: Could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he did killer.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could have just been fulfilling the murderous desire, but your point is that his victims were never pre-pubescent at least.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he really enjoyed the college-aged women, and I think that's because he wanted to alternate a little bit psychologist here, steal from them, which he himself didn't have.
[SPEAKER_01]: because he didn't, no matter how successful Bundy was in his older years in college or, you know, going to the law, even though he wasn't going to be able to continue down that road, he never got the fulfillment of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was always self-judging himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he, this business of him signing correspondents with a little tea speaks volumes psychologically, that instead of a capitol,
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes he would sign his name in just a lower case.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just odd.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, yeah, I think he was destroying that, which he couldn't have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, I was curious about that because it, it's so interesting is first potential like them and Ray Burr, which I mean, I, I mean, I, from the little I've read, it seems like that's a no-brainer that that would have been him, it seems like that's clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I was like, it's interesting that it's first and last were both.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, children, as opposed to him, but I think it also, my answer to the question it seems like you're kind of alluding to this as well was, I mean, this is post the Kaio megabart.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, at that point, it was literally any prey that was easy to get was his target.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was very indiscriminate at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was, I was just good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, he, he, he wasn't ever going to go up the ladder or older.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was always down the land.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a couple.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll try to go through a little rapid fire here.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things you mentioned in the book, he, I think it was in your book, Lee, mentioned this, but he requested for his ashes to be scattered in the Cascade Mountains.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is where he had left a lot of his victims, do you know the psychology of that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you venture a guess?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it was it kind of a final stance of power over them?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it, yeah, he liked the area?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think the reason for that request was?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know, he, you know, absolutely he had a connection to the cascade mountains, even if he wouldn't have dumped any
[SPEAKER_01]: not the head, but the body of the lady he got from Evergreen State College down the Manson.
[SPEAKER_01]: He dumped her body in the cascades somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now even though here's interest, here's something I learned just a couple years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though it's last wish was to have his ashes spreading the cascades mountains, it's really come out that Mrs. Bundy who is now
[SPEAKER_01]: kept the ashes in an iron on her mantle.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's been confirmed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So apparently she was able to obtain the ashes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that either till a couple years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if that's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me see.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll skip those.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of these are, you've covered in depth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, I'll ask this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll ask this because I'm curious, and I'm a huge film buff, so I'm always interested in portrayals, and especially doing what I do, I always call what I do like survivor centered true crimes, because I'm usually interviewing victims of abuse, and so I try to position a way that is respectful of their story first and foremost.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is interesting with public figures and individuals like Bundy, there's going to be people who create narrative retellings of their stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: First and foremost, what do you think about these types of films being made?
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to be made, but if you had a say in it, do you think they shouldn't be?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it's good that some are?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it just depends on how they do it?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you think about those things?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, if you see something with, uh, for example, gang rape scene, that's always considered those things troubling to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I understand, I mean, everybody's heard the term gratuitous violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of violence in things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even though we're not talking about this particular thing here, if you notice, I think one of the
[SPEAKER_01]: is that they know they're going to be on the news, 24, 7, you know, the 24, 7 cable channels on and on they want to be remembered.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like they show up with the six o'clock news before cable and then what's why they used to not show school shooters on the news, which I think is it's sad that we've lost that, um, for strength, you know, yeah, but the demand to know and on the other
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of things that they show in movies that I don't think are great to show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's, we live in a society now that, I mean, we all have freedom.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't scream fire in a theater, but when it gets to legislating things, it's very difficult to say, no, you can't show this or you can't show that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, uh, I, I once saw a, uh, a movie where they shot a pig and I saw this pig starts squealing and spinning and I told my wife, they really shot that pig.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can tell this is not anything, but they, she Google it, shirts, shirts and anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: They shot the pig.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be watching a movie and see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to see real mergers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, years are going the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I stumbled on where some Afghan fighters cut the head off of a Russian soldier.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I made the mistake of watching it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to be forever to get the image out of my head.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of stuff you're going to see now is a healthy for people.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the same thing as seeing the war films up?
[SPEAKER_01]: Reels out the World War II of, you know, where it's not really that graphic, which you're seeing stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of stuff out there that people can see.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I, I mean, I like, for example, I couldn't ever bring myself if I was in that work
[SPEAKER_01]: I could do something where there's murder, maybe, or whatever, but it would have to have some really redeeming value to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, a part of me, I mean, it's like, you may not think this is true, but it takes things out of people to keep writing about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first book I ever wrote was a personality study on George Armstrong, Custer.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my first book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I ever wrote, it was published in December of twice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, December of 1995 and then five years later a publisher asked me to write a full biography of custard and I did that in 2013, but everything else I've been till this World War II book was just murder and it took a toll on me, finally I thought, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to really go to something else, but I decided to go and write this book on the second book more and it was a relief to get away from all that and sometimes I'll read these headlines of these murders and sometimes I'll read about it and sometimes I won't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of pay a price doing all this and there are other writers out there that I won't mention their name but I know them who are basically one or two quick writing about.
[SPEAKER_01]: because it's just too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if it hasn't effect on me, what's it doing to young people?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not books because they're not reading them mostly, but these gratuitous films is it is it is it making things more possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it turning something within them?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they have to have problems within them for it to take the kind of effect that it needs to get them to do things, but still, you're gonna match up with people to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like I say, I think one of the reasons that keeps this stuff going on is all this stuff with the school shooters and stuff, is because they end up being on TV.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're in a tough line of business for World War II is a reprieve, you know, from the, or the, or the say it, but it really is a repeat, at least there's no.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you study about the Nazis, they were monsters.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but when you're talking about just the war in general, people who lives in their lives, but through their stopping evil or your right, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're writing about the experiments and all the horrific things there, you're, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, again, this is something we can talk about at length.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a huge horror fan.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I caught some strays, I think, in your, in your take on that genre.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it does speak to the point,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I am somebody, I love a good splash from movie and I enjoy a lot of, I enjoy a lot of heavy hitting horror for sure, but it's also something where I could never put myself in the shoes of, but like for me, when the Ted Bundy tapes documentary came out, I watched it, my wife made fun of me, I watched it.
[SPEAKER_02]: in portions of the, like our episodes, I would watch like 20 minutes stop watching the next day of watching it because it was, it was a lot, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But listen, how about the 1978 thing of Michael Myers, the first one, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you know, I have watched each success of one that's come out some are better than others, but you know, the way because of this is, you know, I just don't
[SPEAKER_01]: It's different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a fair point and I definitely understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: It does take a toll like I said I cover a lot of cases not murder of covering Sexual abuse.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've talked a hundred victims at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know when people send me true crime.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's why I don't watch a lot or read a lot your books the first true crime book that I've read this year It's because I've allotted that part of my life in the show
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where I get it all out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the rest of it, I want to talk pure fiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about, you know, I want to watch Star Trek and look at an optimistic view of the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, let's, let's get out of here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the last two things I want to ask, okay, the series monster that came out, there's a lot of vitriol toward it because it's just data accurate and it's, I think it's the worst example of telling a fictional version of these types of events, but there's, I don't know if you watch it or not, but there's a scene in the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've watched the first couple of, and I'll probably go back to
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's a scene at the end of the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry for the spoiler.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, this show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: The show depicts Edgain while he's institutionalized assisting FBI agents in tracking down Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he gives him details like the type of saw that Bundy allegedly used.
[SPEAKER_02]: He identifies the Volkswagen Beetle because he got a letter from Richard Speck that talked about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is any of that based on any
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there any connection like where did they pull that from?
[SPEAKER_01]: Was there any if the FBI ever sent anybody to speak with that gain?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what they really expected to get You know at Ed Ging was quite internalized to what he was doing He's not the kind of person of I need to go out and get a special list of a special ladder He was just in the what he was into and I don't think they'd get a lot of information
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I don't know if they sent anybody to them or, you know, I think it's just, I hear of that stuff and that kind of just chuckle.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the last thing I want to ask, and it's something that you talk about in your book, and you, as someone who's not super familiar with all these stories and extreme depth aside from, say, the documentary and reading your book, you talked about the
[SPEAKER_02]: you think that the way it's been reported pretty much everywhere else is not the full truth of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fairly accurate.
[SPEAKER_02]: The way people describe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you give your account of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What specifically are you referring to?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it really stood out to me the way you delineated like, you've heard about this, but this is what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you break that down?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when when Bundy,
[SPEAKER_01]: when Debbie was leaving the auditor and I've been there leaving the auditorium she went out the west doors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bundy got up didn't know he was at the half wall I think by then he had gone back and forth between the half wall on the main wall.
[SPEAKER_01]: He purposely went out the front door and ran down the sidewalk to catch up with her so we could abduct her.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, once he and somebody heard loud scream around this time and I'm sure you whacked her in the head she was going to be out
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was, and he went back in, and when he went back in, his part of a shirt tail was out, he was kind of messed up, his hair was, you know, just he, he looked like he was winded it, and he was winded it from struggling with her, and I think the reason why I came back in was, so nobody would ever link, there's 1500 people in the auditorium.
[SPEAKER_01]: including the future victim Susan Curtis, who I mentioned before, was there that night.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think he came in there to say, if he was ever questioned.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, I left for a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just using the restroom when that came back in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as he sat there, looking winded with half a shirt out, railing shepherd, the drama teacher, who by this point was near in the end of the play, was sitting with her husband, as I recall,
[SPEAKER_01]: and she turned around and looked at him and was staring at him because of the interaction she had had with him earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that's why he at that time got up and left.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the nobody ever mentioned that he just kind of went back in there to build a little bit of a hell of a by.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what he did because there was no reason to call himself an upoff and he's kind of disheveled from struggling with her and
[SPEAKER_01]: there would be no reason to go back in there other than that, but most people seem to bypass that and they think he took her and left immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'll ask one last bonus question.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's been multiple portrayals of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've watched a few.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Mark Carmen in years years ago,
[SPEAKER_02]: perfect perfect perfect portrayal.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Chad Michael Murray, which is a lesson perfect portrayal.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have one that stands out to you that you think really captured Bundy's essence where you go like that?
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to see a recreation of Bundy that feels most accurate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the looks of Mark Arman, the way, because you know, he kind of would remind me of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now there's no question.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of, didn't know man, I've got, look like Bundy, but all you're going to get no man of God is his Bundy's dealing with haigmar at that point, but if you look to the movies that I do like the Mark Harmon one, what else?
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the Bob Kepel one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, but all of these have so many things, it's like we don't have the time to do the scenes as they need to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you see a lot of errors in there coming to get somebody and fix them up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it just for most people won't notice any of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the documentary said I see they all have their different flavors like a told ABC producer one
[SPEAKER_01]: and they all had their mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I said that all for which I could see view them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been all of a lot of them, but even those that I'm not on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I said, if I can view them, I can say, oh, here, you need James this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, James that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to keep mistakes out in the document area.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really, really dry to keep it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And most do an excellent job nowadays, ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And most of me use my book, The Bundy murder says a guy had been doing so for years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the documentaries from years ago, they would always go to the same people, the Washington State people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they never called the Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did a great job in the investigation
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, after my book was published, it seemed to say, hey, wait, there is this Jerry Thompson out of Utah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is this Mike Fisher, who got the first murder warrant placed against Bundy, and so it's been more of an even hand thing and not just worth an estate, but everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they've been getting these things right over the past I would say five years or so, four, five years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'd love to see, I'd love to see a podcast or a documentary or something that puts together someone like a Catholic, a Chesney who was piecing together, I mean, early in our career, piecing together were serial killers weren't even a thing people were thinking about piecing together in this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And seeing her maybe sit at a round table with a billhagmire who is at the tail end and just see them pass notes back and that would be really interesting Yeah, and I love to see that because it is it depending who you ask they got a different version of Bundy too.
[SPEAKER_02]: She got the most careful version and Bill was dealing with the desperate end of life version and you know, there's so much in between it of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you something that you might not know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill said, you know, Ted really liked me.
[SPEAKER_01]: He considered me a good friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said some of my own agents who were in behavioral science, but were just ages.
[SPEAKER_01]: They couldn't believe why I was getting so close to Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said to Bill, is that, are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't understand what you're trying to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Become a friend, so he'll open up to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Bundy was convinced that, and hey, Mars, a nice guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was good to Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he was his quote, friend, unquote, for as much as he could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, but Bill said that he would go home and he wouldn't go home.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would tell his parents, he'd write home, call home.
[SPEAKER_01]: What a good friend Bill was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So much so that Bill said that I haven't heard them heard from them for a while, and I said, well, Johnny Bundy's dead and I've just recently heard that his mom,
[SPEAKER_01]: a nursing home.
[SPEAKER_01]: We said, well, that's why I can say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he said, we used to get a Christmas card from him every year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he said this every time they were on the East Coast, they came and saw me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, because Louise was so convinced that that they were friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: So of course, but from bills perspective, it was to gain all the information that he possibly could from this extremely successful.
[SPEAKER_01]: killer of women.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was no real friendship there, but he was nice to bunny.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he, you know, he didn't stone him about anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he just, he, he'll need to ask him a question and he'd answer it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I going to say to God?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think Bill, even told.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if he shrugged his shoulders or what?
[SPEAKER_01]: What can you say?
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill's not God.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wouldn't know what God's going to say to a
[SPEAKER_01]: Fundy about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then again, a funny God saved then.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know you hate to hear this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome home.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you got it, if he received the spirit of God, I received in Jesus and Savior.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, but it's an interesting story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I'll write about Monday anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think at 1600 pages, I've written a good amount.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you've done your share.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, thank you so much for doing this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got like four pages of notes we could have spent hours talking and you could have filled 1500 pages of paper about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you ever want me back to pursue that more on people in the come back home?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it might be.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is definitely runs parallel to some of the things I talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a unique angle here that I think is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but you know, I'd love to love to keep in touch and maybe some of those questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before like you tease this earlier that you probably wouldn't want to interview Bundy.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you had had the chance, if he was still sitting in prison today,
[SPEAKER_02]: But your publisher says you have to, this is, you know, you need to go dig into this.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you could ask Bundy one question, what would that question be?
[SPEAKER_02]: If you had to, had to sit down and do that interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he told, he's told so much about the murders.
[SPEAKER_01]: That I, well, I would ask him, I'd say Ted was your conversion real.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would press him on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I know the man so well and the evil that drove him, but I can't think of anything that I would, I think I'd ask him what he first noticed as a young child that things were changing within him that might give him pause.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would probably be the only thing I would ask him because once he started
[SPEAKER_01]: from what I know from all the other people that have interviewed him once he started going down the road of violence and you know sex and I mean you can see it's only a matter of time before he's going to cross over so I wouldn't have a lot to ask him on his life at all but I would like to know whether his conversion or real and I think if I talked to him long enough I could find out either he or he or he or he or he.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much, I guess that again, and I appreciate you going well over your time.
[SPEAKER_02]: It means a lot to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's much for doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, thanks, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've been listening to the Prejabois podcast hosted by Eric Swarzinski.
[SPEAKER_02]: The intro music, Bible Belt, was performed by Lou Ridley.
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on, come on, we are gathered here today To praise the Holy Father, fill the glory of His name Anyone can worship here so long as you act straight Pay your ties and follow rules even the ones God didn't make