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[SPEAKER_03]: And this is another edition of the SpiceWalk podcast thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, anything special going on this week?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And another quiet week.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's forgotten about Venezuela.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they, so Greenland, we're going to talk about Greenland today with Jacob Karsbro, who is a former senior Danish intelligence officer, who's been writing a sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_03]: We lost the interesting things.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll get back to that.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_03]: You guys, tell me what this Greenland craziness is like the barometer going up and down.
[SPEAKER_04]: To me, what's so astonishing about this is, you know, a year and a half ago, two years ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: was anybody talking about Greenland Donald Trump was.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and we just dismissed it as great as you can.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember it being a major part of his campaign.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I don't remember him ever seeing it at all, while he was actually dead in his first administration.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was kind of a side show.
[SPEAKER_03]: But nobody could.
[SPEAKER_04]: My point.
[SPEAKER_04]: My, my, my, my basic point is, you know, back in the day when I covered Congress, you know, when there was a sort of major national security issue, um, that was, you know, on the horizon or, you know, would lead to US action, there would be like a major debate.
[SPEAKER_04]: There would be congressional hearings.
[SPEAKER_04]: You'd hear from advocates for, you know, whatever Trump wanted to do and you'd hear from advocates who say,
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we beat a lengthy public debate so you know this thing just seemed to pop up out of nowhere I mean and you know suddenly wait we got a C's Greenland like what is the urgency?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean it's just head spinning for a really out of us Karen you had some thoughts about this No, I just think that no thoughts at all.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, I you know I did that's that's that's
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, that is true.
[SPEAKER_05]: But what I, you know, we have to put this in perspective of not just Greenland and it was happening with Denmark, Europe, as a whole.
[SPEAKER_05]: But this switch from, we have to be in one chaotic moment after another chaotic moment, after another chaotic moment.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like
[SPEAKER_05]: there has to like what's next?
[SPEAKER_05]: I know we're focused on Greenland and Denmark today, but it really does get us into the mindset and we need to get on understand this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we can debate this all you say and I think that's really good points, Mike, but the point is that the minute you debate one thing, the needle's moved and there's something else to debate, and something else to think about that
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, there is a pattern.
[SPEAKER_03]: And our guest, Jacob Carsboro, brought it up and reminded us that, and my drill down to it in this interview, that all of Trump's policies align with Moscow's.
[SPEAKER_03]: Moscow's goal since the Bolsheviks were born.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's to break up the West.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's particularly since the Soviet Union attacked began attacking NATO as an end to the 80 years ago after it was formed.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, can I just like counter that a little bit?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like then why is he talking about the Russian threat as the reason we have to seize Greenland?
[SPEAKER_04]: This is, is all about building golden dome to stop Russian missiles from coming into the United States, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're trying to, you're trying to, having to make sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, well, that's why I'm saying the line with Moscow narrative, which there's a lot to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I did write a book called Russian Roulette some years ago that explored Trump and his ties to Russia and don't want to dismiss them, but I'm just saying none of it makes sense because it's Trump and he's an authoritarian and you know, look, this strongest thing with his, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: for, for eternity with Putin is Putin runs Russia the way he wants to run America.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's, you know, I don't think you, you know, add the business deals in Moscow on top of it and you've got the explanation there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, but, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: And the ground is shifting so quickly on Greenland and NATO, it's hard to say what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_05]: So do you guys not accept the fact that Trump has said, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to invade Greenland.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to, you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's, that's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, keeping it so strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Bluster one day say, you know, give me my Nobel Peace Prize.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, forget about peace.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to take a C's Greenland and then, you know, and then when it's your birthday party.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's your birthday party.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Here's a further point about debate that Congress is just relinquishing the responsibility and not wanting to debate it or that things are happening so fast that they don't get the chance.
[SPEAKER_05]: What's your point about how this came out of nowhere?
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this was not on the public consciousness, you know, until Trump gets it into somebody, you know, somebody in the first term, some business buddy, but here in his head, you know, but it that never translated into because it was to a point of debate about this because it was because it was another just another crazy thing that Trump said back then, he's actually even before his first administration, I've been informed in weeks he was
[SPEAKER_03]: the love this idea of taking Greenland, but it, right, it was like, I would say it was just chatter over drinks with Trump over die of coax, with Trump.
[SPEAKER_05]: But then you wanted to buy it, remember?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what he did make an issue.
[SPEAKER_03]: until this weekend, I think you can't discount this Epstein documents thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he he desperate to to keep that, uh, keep a lid on that and say, he keeps him, keeps him vending anyway, he invented.
[SPEAKER_03]: I write this every week.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think Epstein is fading and, you know, now the Democrats are in this dilemma about, you know, holding Clinton and contempt and that makes it awkward for them after saying, Epstein, Epstein, well, no, we don't want to ask this question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, I'm not sure, it's faded so much, it's just been overtaken by the screenland emergency, which is a big deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... because it's uh... involves the fate of NATO, the western alliance, etc.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a very big deal uh... and it's just quickly follows on the heels of you know capturing the president of Venezuela uh... and this is what i want to revisit this in the coming weeks that the idea that you know or not the idea the fact that the trump is taken then is well and well
[SPEAKER_03]: and giving them, and stash them and what?
[SPEAKER_03]: To buy, come on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then another theater will come back and visit one day.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this Israeli peace, whatever, alternate UN, that he seems to be trying to build.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then of course, there's the threat to attack Iran.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_03]: anything no stick, you know, that's why I come back to the Epstein thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, you know, it has crowded out the Epstein thing, but that is still smoldering.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's still a big issue to his, to a lot of his MAGA people.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll see where that goes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, we'll see.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would just say one more thing, which is that pretending there's a grand strategy long view here, rather than it's just really nearly, you know, one thing after another.
[SPEAKER_05]: The Maduro episode, very much sense of signals for the rest of the world, which was, I'm going to do what I say I'm going to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wonder if they would have taken Greenland the threats about Greenland as seriously if it hadn't been for the Duro.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so the question is, what do we take away?
[SPEAKER_05]: What's this chess piece move supposed to do?
[SPEAKER_05]: One thing that's really been driven home if you read the media and Europe and talk to people over there is fear.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the same thing around other places of the country that you've mentioned,
[SPEAKER_05]: This idea of one is about money, we know that, one is about power that comes with money, but the other thing is about just instilling fear everywhere.
[SPEAKER_05]: When he says something, people get scared because he might do it, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Including Republicans who are of for real action, who are keeping their traps shut because it's not just the political ramifications that Trump will primary them, but when Trump targets them, they get death threats.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, they got pizza sent to their house.
[SPEAKER_03]: They get doxed, etc.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's, it's real.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're thrusted judges who oppose him as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I want to hear from our Danish intelligence officer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm going to get to that in my key if you just hold your time, but I'd like, no, we tease people with like, got this great gas.
[SPEAKER_03]: My maple.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to tell
[SPEAKER_03]: He was with several senior positions.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was Japanese, he was, he was, he was Japanese head of counterterrorism.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was head of Middle East analysis.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was an intelligence analyst all along.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's made several trips to Greenland recently and he's going back this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll be anxious to hear what he says after that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we're lucky enough to have them on the show today.
[SPEAKER_03]: And,
[SPEAKER_03]: Jacob Cosbro, without any further introduction, it's your moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Spy Talk.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jacob Karzbo welcome to spy talk.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've been a senior Danish intelligence officer.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have circulated in and around a highest security circles of Denmark.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is the thinking in Copenhagen today?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, it's troublesome for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been for like that for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure a lot of my former colleagues are shocked by what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's dumped.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also very concerned.
[SPEAKER_01]: I come right from a public debate on national TV.
[SPEAKER_01]: where people, including myself, are saying things about your country that none of us would have ever thought with utter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it all feels very strange, but we have to adjust to what's
[SPEAKER_04]: our listeners who I'm sure are as puzzled as I am.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just what is the perceived urgency on the part of Trump and acquiring Danish territory, the Danish territory of Greenland?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different thoughts about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now also some people that entertain his security argument,
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been the one who has said right since January of last year that this is not what it's about because all of Trump's alleged security concerns could be addressed through NATO and the defense agreement that we already have.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's something other in play here and unfortunately I've been doing quite a bit of research on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it seems to me that, yes, indeed, it is something quite different, namely access to natural resources, the dream of expanding U.S. territory as Trump talked about in his already
[SPEAKER_01]: And this whole idea of some of the Silicon Valley establishment or Broly Garks or whatever we call them that the US should expand that that they can build these tech havens in Greenland that do I that's actually well described publicly so I'm afraid it's all those different and very outlandish.
[SPEAKER_04]: When the president and his people talk about this, they're mostly talking about national security threats, rushes, and Chinese encroachments through the Arctic, and you know the potential of that their influence expanding throughout the Arctic, which I gather is somewhat being accelerated by
[SPEAKER_04]: climate change because ISIS melting and sewrote are multiplying through the Arctic, which is an opening for the Russians and the Chinese.
[SPEAKER_04]: But from the Danish perspective, I'm sure you had to look at
[SPEAKER_04]: these sorts of threats or these sorts of scenarios.
[SPEAKER_04]: Give us how you saw it when you, when did you leave the Danish Intelligence Service in 2018?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, not that long ago, so from your time and beyond,
[SPEAKER_04]: perceive these perceived threats from the Russians and the Chinese in the Arctic?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they are there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and the Chinese, for sure, have tried to enter Greenland through business deals and have tried to reach out to the Greenland government for critical infrastructure and natural resources.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we've all stopped that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just to mention one issue, there has not been a Chinese ship around Greenland for more than ten years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if there ever was a red hearing, this is it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're saying, no Chinese warships have been spotted scouting Greenland or Denmark for that matter in the last 10 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that what you're saying?
[SPEAKER_03]: 10 plus, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the initiatives by China have been business initiatives which have been mostly forwarded.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Russia, well, pretty much the same thing I would say.
[SPEAKER_01]: These allegations that the Russian warships around Greenland.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't say exactly when the last Russian warship was seen in the area.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I tell you what, we have Russian warships, 8 kilometers from my house every now and then.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's something we're used to keeping
[SPEAKER_01]: So we know when they are there, we also know when they are around Greenland.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, as I said, this is a red herring.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say, you know, if you read the Trump team national security strategy from December, there's not a word about a threat from Russia.
[SPEAKER_01]: why is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're talking at Europe as a threat, including Denmark as a threat.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's all this stuff about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they mean it or don't they mean it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know they don't mean that Russia is the threat.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the Trump ever said that about his good friend Vladimir, as he calls him in an
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to follow up on what's happening in Europe.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it is true that the National Security Strategy sort of pushed Europe aside and denigrated Europe as democracy, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_05]: But there really is something fundamental going on in terms of the longstanding alliance between the United States and Europe.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm really wondering if you think we've especially in the wake of NATO, sort of hit a turning point, and especially also in the wake of Davos, a turning point for Europe.
[SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that Europe is now going to change its strategy and really continue to push back against the United States, show signs of being able to pre-arm places?
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, one of the things I've heard about Europe from people living in Europe,
[SPEAKER_05]: is that there's a sense that there's just a lot of arms manufacturing and arms stocking the end storage that's going on.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, what is happening in Europe?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are they trying to pivot and saying, okay, we get the message, whether or not Trump goes down that line, we need to be prepared on our own in a way we haven't been since the Second World War.
[SPEAKER_05]: What's happening there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm certain that most Europeans say that with the bleeding hearts and hope that the US will come back into the fold that actually subscribe to the NATO treaty.
[SPEAKER_01]: because what's fundamentally wrong here is that Trump doesn't believe in the word of the treaty, and that's why he violates even article number one in the treaty about its national law, about the respect for territorial integrity, and that all member states must refrain from threats towards each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Trump doesn't care about that whole value set that we all agreed on back in 1948 and 49.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we just hope that comes back one day, you know, we know that we have not invested enough in our own defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right, but that doesn't justify that you throw out the whole value set that we've agreed on and what we've agreed on as the fundamental principles for European security.
[SPEAKER_05]: Is Europe fortifying itself continually in new ways and do you think that's going to continue that way?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really, you know, we can only defend ourselves if we have a defense industry that's fit for purpose.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to be honest, we haven't had that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why the Europeans have imported about 70, 70, just a bit above 70% of all our defense equipment from the US.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a big problem for us now, so it hurts me to say, but we're not going to buy that much defense equipment from the US and to a large and large extent we will see will actually only buy the stuff that we can't manufacture ourselves because we know that Trump might try to exploit it for political purposes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, if Trump has gone, whenever market comes back or whatever happens, God forbid, then then then then that can all happen again.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in any event, buying an advanced European fighter isn't you don't walk into, say, Walmart and buy a bunch of fighter planes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It takes years to acquire
[SPEAKER_03]: to shift the defense capabilities to European manufacturers.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can't do that overnight anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I have another question for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask about this break and intelligent sharing.
[SPEAKER_03]: What can you add to our understanding of that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's start with Denmark.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because Denmark no longer sharing with the Americans and vice versa.
[SPEAKER_03]: What can you say about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I would never ask my former colleagues about that, but my analysis.
[SPEAKER_01]: is that they are sharing, they are cooperating but a lot less.
[SPEAKER_01]: What we can say for sure is that the heads of the Dutch services have said that they share far less with the US now, out of political and security concerns,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure that goes for all European services because you know that this is about the risk of compromising intelligence assets, bringing people in danger.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you have people like Tulsi Gabbard at the helm of your intelligence services, how can you, how can you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, you don't know what will end up in Russia, and you know with human, how could you, if you can't guarantee a Russian, that you don't share it with the US, how would you convince a Russian to work for you?
[SPEAKER_03]: with the people that I this really hurts us in the counterterrorism realm because CIA and particular has been very dependent on its allies who have their ears closer to the ground across Europe and the Middle East needs us to say.
[SPEAKER_03]: We rely on these L.I.
[SPEAKER_03]: services for our terrorism information.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine, though, that I'm counterterra.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's probably one of the areas where there's less interruption.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's my gut feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can only speak to what would what would be my impression because there would you would probably say the less the risk of of leaks for some of the people within your services that have Russian ties and
[SPEAKER_01]: There, you know, the less of leaks in the CT, well, it's, it's perhaps less, so that'd be my, my God feeling, but what I will say, you can't recruit a source in the Russian area.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't promise that you will never share it with the US government at this point in time, I can't see a good source that would take that risk.
[SPEAKER_04]: There have been periodic reports of Trump administration officials or allies visiting Greenland.
[SPEAKER_04]: There have been suggestions of influence operations.
[SPEAKER_03]: All these Trump Indians were named.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Binding executive and venture capitalists.
[SPEAKER_03]: who works in mining sector.
[SPEAKER_04]: What can you tell us about all this?
[SPEAKER_04]: Just what the Trump folks are up to in Greenland?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's actually gone that far that our domestic intelligence and security service has named us as a threat in that area.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will say I have done open source deep dive into what's there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a book that comes out in the fifth of February where, you know, I'm going way further than then what our our our services have said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Give us a peek.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do tell.
[SPEAKER_01]: as testing the threat, because these guys don't want to offend, you know, and interrupt, you know, the political dialogue that's still going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so, my judgment is they're saying as little as they can get away with.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what can you tell us about who they are and what they're doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, you saw this even in January of last year after Don Jr went to, to, to, to Nuke that there was also already, you know, they had started up a subversive campaign.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have some bands, you have several other people that have operated and are closely tied to the MAGA network.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so obviously, we know about them trying to recruit, you know, Magga agents, you have this character, you're on Boasn, that was in his Greenlander.
[SPEAKER_04]: Who is this?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: His name is Jan Boerson, and he was in Washington, D.C. to celebrate Trump's first anniversary at the helm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also slicing that cake with Greenland, with the American flag on it, on only on Tuesday.
[SPEAKER_01]: in in Washington there on on Tuesday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so that's the way they operate, but we've also seen and I believe that was Wall Street Journal that covered that that you know there have been orders out in the intelligence community to start operating against the
[SPEAKER_01]: Denmark and a lot of people are asking me but haven't they already always done that and I'm saying well it's one issue to exploit intelligence to know more about and negotiate in position regarding climate change or trade debates and whatnot and then to order you know
[SPEAKER_01]: real intelligence operations against a country.
[SPEAKER_04]: So just to be clear, this is about stirring up the Greenland independence movement, or break away from Denmark.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that what they're doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds sort of ideological, I suppose, as opposed to the business interests of the folks who
[SPEAKER_04]: have their minds on mineral rights and other things in Greenland?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, both of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also political to try to identify the operators that can do the job both in Denmark and in Greenland.
[SPEAKER_01]: were sympathetic towards Donald Trump, they realized that they probably won't get very popular and then Mark, if they don't distance themselves from these subversive activities and Trump
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, from that perspective, it's hard for them to, to, to, to recruit people in Denmark to do it and it's also getting harder and harder in Greenland because people see it like it, it's something the Russians would do, you know, and you can get one or two useful idiots, and like they have on the Russian side also, but it's, it's hard to cultivate further
[SPEAKER_05]: So what I'm hearing from you is that even though Trump ostensibly pulled back even though he said, look, you know, I'm not going to do this tariff thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm, you know, I'm not going to launch this invasion that even though that happened.
[SPEAKER_05]: you don't seem to have been, and I think you're speaking from more than yourself, to see Denmark and Europe as seeing that this really is the pivotal moment of that other new sources have somehow said it is, you know, like he's returning to some form of realism and sanity.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, and it seems to me that those pullbacks aren't really in the calculation in terms of what to expect what to prepare for and how to think about, you know, understanding the next moment.
[SPEAKER_05]: Is that correct?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think deep down most people agree that it's too, too soon to say because it doesn't seem to us that Trump has given up on his ulterior motive and that is to plant the
[SPEAKER_01]: the way he acts.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we actually expect that all this, you know, with mineral deals, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: that he's talking about and all that allegation about an agreement with Mark Rutter.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Mark Rutter cat he's a civil servant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry to say he's employed by all the all the nations that are part of NATO.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he can't negotiate on the Greenlander, so now in the Dane's behalf, and you know, Magruta has also said that this is not what he has done, so these are Trump's claims, and you know, Trump and and and reality and Trump and and the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are conflicting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Jacob, if a military, a U.S. military invasion of Greenland is off the table, because if we're only one reason, it'll crash the markets and would be the ultimate other destruction of NATO,
[SPEAKER_03]: And if subversion is off the table because you can't find more than a couple of guys, you know, knocking back drinks in a bar who will be Trump's secret agents as if that were possible in a town of what 57,000 people.
[SPEAKER_03]: or less.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what's left?
[SPEAKER_03]: You were a senior counterintelligence official in Danish intelligence.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what are you looking for?
[SPEAKER_03]: What else could Trump do?
[SPEAKER_03]: What would you be looking for?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what what I'm trying to say to the public and to decision-makers is that we
[SPEAKER_01]: because we have managed to do something in Denmark and in Europe that has seemingly deterred Trump from going through with his enterprise.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's through strength.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we need to be able to project.
[SPEAKER_01]: and if we let our gods down, it might come back and that's why we need to be all up and continue going to keep things on the rails.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let me ask you what we'll be guarding for.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk in just briefly about the cyber realm, for example.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have not the slightest idea of how this would work, but do you have you detected any cyber information warfare coming from Trump's intelligence agencies and just information and the like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I will say that's mainly spread through the social media that are controlled by the Silicon Valley operators that are closely affiliated with Trump and where you can say well there is cultivation going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: through through that.
[SPEAKER_01]: To my knowledge, we haven't seen evidence that that goes even, you know, deeper than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not what I've seen, but that is definitely a lot going on with the control of the algorithms, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and you'd just track back to Jadey
[SPEAKER_01]: in February when he came with all these allegations that we don't allow freedom of speech etc etc etc etc which you know which is a load of nonsense of course we allow freedom of speech but we don't want our political debate
[SPEAKER_01]: to be corrupted by algorithms, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you see, you know, Musk and that whole thing going on with the alternative, if you're Dutch land and all that, and the election interference that was happening in Romania, for instance,
[SPEAKER_01]: that that guy that Romanian party leader that almost got elected by help from the Trump camp and from the Russians.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was in Washington DC on Tuesday and he's on all those photos where he's slicing the cake with Greenland and American flag.
[SPEAKER_01]: So wait what's the connection?
[SPEAKER_03]: why is he this green land event in Washington it because they cultivate maga agents in Europe and that's also what these so that was a Romanian the Romanian party ultra right party leader joined this celebration and coming up of the Greenland cake in the White House in Washington this week is that what you're saying?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And flesh out the significance of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: The significance is that they are trying to bring more Victor Orbans to power.
[SPEAKER_01]: People that will break down European unity,
[SPEAKER_01]: because they know full well that at this United Europe and Europe of nation states will be easier to pressurize.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just imagine the the terrorists that we would see in Europe and in Denmark in particular due to the Greenland issue if we didn't have the block that is the EU.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's only because of the magnitude of EU that Trump is not playing out against each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because that's why they support these nationalist parties in all the different countries that is to divide Europe and even in their national security strategy, that's where they say they will do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've been saying, I can see they are doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in December, the national security strategy comes out black and white and they say we're cultivating resistance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is a blatant also disregard for NATO, where you don't interfere in the political system and in politics in the member states.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the deal with nations.
[SPEAKER_04]: this is the mirror image of what the Russians have been doing for years right cultivating the very same parties what it was like, you know, the Russians help fund, uh, Le Pen and France, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the industry and Germany.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I have a degree in corporate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he's radioed today, I said people need to stop thinking about Trump as a normal political actor in a democratic society.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got more in common, you know, in his rhetoric, in his thoughts, et cetera, et cetera, in his actions with Putin that he has with a leader of a democratic society.
[SPEAKER_05]: Can we talk a little bit about your book now?
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay so is this book gonna be coming out in English first of all?
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, it is but I don't know when it's released in Denmark in on the fifth of February and this is the one that in English what would the title be?
[SPEAKER_05]: What's the translation of your
[SPEAKER_01]: Subverted.
[SPEAKER_05]: Subverted.
[SPEAKER_05]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And and and just talk a little bit about what it is and and you know we actually it started off with us talking about I'm writing it with a journalist because he's really good at you know it would be too boring if I wrote it myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But basically, too many details, but anyway, we start talking about what is happening in the world of intelligence when something a rupture like that happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: And someone with proven connections to Russia takes over again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's sort of spun on from there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're actually doing is we're talking about the proven relationships between a Trump incorporated as I like to call it, and Putin.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have Americans that I have covered this quite extensively, so you know, New, New ground Jacob on that's I think there's nothing new but we use it like to say there's something here and that's why Trump acts like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, because people in Europe, they ask themselves, but all this stuff about Ukraine, that's insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is Trump saying like this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he does something else and so on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm the only guy that pops up on TV and they try to explain to people, that's because they have a relationship that's because the Russians have been developing,
[SPEAKER_01]: against Trump for years and years and years and years and they still try to, you know, get him even more into into that sphere.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you saying that you're the only one who pops up on TV to make this clear to people?
[SPEAKER_03]: Just about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are there other former or current security
[SPEAKER_03]: getting on TV and telling people what's really going on here, not much, not much.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's some that know it now and also some former journalists that have started to dig that on the ball here, but there is a tendency for people that don't go deeper to just look at what's above the surface.
[SPEAKER_01]: the surface.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we actually using this to try and say there's a rupture here, there's a rupture in terms of intelligence and security.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're trying to take all those different examples out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, to say to people, this is serious stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that we really have to
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can hope that America will cure itself, but we can't count on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully one day we can get the U.S. back to being allies, but this whole notion that the Trump administration is an ally of ours is non-sensical.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was in December.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was just before Christmas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tulsi Gabbard gives his speech and says, NATO, our warm-ungus.
[SPEAKER_05]: So your audience is really just the population.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not policy makers.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's really a population.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's business.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's population.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's decision makers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they are all important.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not for me to sit and just talk to our politicians, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: I talk a lot to business leaders.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go a lot out in the open and engage, you know, normal people because I think, you know, and then like there has been this tendency to like think, that security and defense, it will sold itself out, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: out there to try to say to people, it's really, really important.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that was the attitude among millions of people, tens of millions of people who voted for Donald Trump.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, yeah, you know, we kind of like, I mean, we don't like these things.
[SPEAKER_03]: He just been, it all sold itself out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now we find ourselves on a precipice of a very dark world ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think that's our view, which is shared by tens of millions on our side as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, we have to leave it at that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jacob, thanks for spending so much time with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: We really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And thanks for your sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's terrific.
[SPEAKER_01]: And thanks for having me, a big pleasure to make it to your podcast here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our pleasure work.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're honored by your presence here today.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll be in touch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good to see you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye-bye.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's it for this week's ByTalk.
[SPEAKER_03]: Be sure to check out our complete podcast, our Kiva and Apple wherever you get your podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't already, do check out thespytalk.co new site on Substack where we offer a steady diet of scoops in the original analyses from the intersection of intelligence, form policy, and military operations.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just Google Spytalk.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're quickly find your way there.
[SPEAKER_03]: This edition of the Spy Talk podcast was smoothly produced, as always, by can I, and expertly edited by Molly Hawkey for MSW Media.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: See you around.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Jeff Stein.
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I going to go to the golf?
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Karen Greenberg.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.