[SPEAKER_01]: there and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everyone welcome back to another box with hook segment.
[SPEAKER_01]: As per usual we are diving straight in.
[SPEAKER_01]: CC can you please kick us off?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dear CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: First, I want to thank you, Carly and Bianca, for openly discussing the mysteries of the publishing world.
[SPEAKER_02]: As an amateur writer without many connections to this industry, it's wonderful to feel like I have a trio of mentors to be real with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: The below query is complete at 384 words.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm seeking representation for modified, a YA dystopian novel, 82,000 words, about a 16-year-old science prodigy who risks her life to upend the barbaric society she belongs to, while also hopefully overcoming imposter syndrome in the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Modified has the thrill of deadly class divides, found in Rebecca Dazenbaker's Soulmatch, and the tension of a protagonist living a double life seen in Taylor, K, Magie, as we set the dark on fire.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe you'll be interested in this project based on your love of smart female protagonist stealing with high stakes situations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Winter Atovice spent her life over preparing for modification, so it's a shock when she inexplicably fails the procedure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mods are granted artificial perfection in one specialty, while no mods are segregated and sentenced to a life of mindless servitude.
[SPEAKER_02]: When Winter's natural intelligence is dismissed, she's left questioning the legitimacy of the government she's faithfully followed her whole life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when winter sister Aurora successfully mods and slags winter's dream apprenticeship, their separate fate seemed clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Until Aurora shocks winter with a plan to twin swap.
[SPEAKER_02]: Winter will pose as Aurora at the apprenticeship, giving Aurora the freedom to join a rebel group seeking to dismantle the corrupt government and winter the chance to research why no mods fail.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the apprenticeship is hosted by the very government agency responsible for their way of life and getting caught means starring in their next public execution for both of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: nephew of the agency's president.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though Zylo discovers Winter's true identity, he offers partnership instead.
[SPEAKER_02]: As they both grow suspicious of the agency's intentions, Winter hacks into a lab computer and discovers its true horrific goal.
[SPEAKER_02]: To perfect a new procedure that will turn no mods into emotionless compliance slaves.
[SPEAKER_02]: And after she and Zylo are betrayed and captured by the his power hungry ant, winter must rely on her unenhanced talent to stage an escape, expose the agency's atrocities, and upload a critical file that proved no mods are not inferior.
[SPEAKER_02]: A revelation that could collapse their entire societal structure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I graduated with a BA in communications and happened writing professionally in my marketing career ever since.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a member of Liberty State's fiction writers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for your consideration.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Redact it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: CC is someone who likes to study in fiction that sounds really interesting to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's hear your take on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought so too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this person was like, you're gonna love this because it has all the things you love and people say this to agents a lot and I'm always like, am I gonna love it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's just how the brain works.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we're told how we're gonna feel, we offer emotional resistance.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my lizard brain in action.
[SPEAKER_02]: This person was right, just saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't rep YA, okay, but the story sounds so great.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will however give you notes because
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that your first sentence is that she spent her whole life over preparing for modification but then she fails because that establishes an expectation and a disruption.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was very well done.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, the next sentence there is about the world and the sentence after that reads, when winter's natural intelligence is dismissed, she's left questioning the legitimacy of the government.
[UNKNOWN]: So
[SPEAKER_02]: First sentence that a really good job in the next two sentences were about world-building and then interiority because a protagonist being left questioning something is in the most compelling plot point.
[SPEAKER_02]: As discussed on the show, we won't plot points to capture external events, not internal events, interiority is very important, but not for the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also not sure if there's causality between the fact that she failed the modification because her natural intelligence was dismissed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Having read the pages, I think I have a better sense, but it just confused me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I didn't know whether she failed the test and then her intelligence was dismissed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what dismissed even means in terms of one's intelligence being dismissed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just thought it was too big picture too zoomed out.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Good News.
[SPEAKER_02]: And set the paragraph after that, is filled with really juicy plot points.
[SPEAKER_02]: The twist about her twin wanting to take her place and them swapping is genius.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like so genius, love that, really smart, really intriguing, really compelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are some things in storytelling that are just naturally compelling and twin swapping is a thousand percent one of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, great job there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also really liked that you made the stakes very clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that they could both, you know, star in a public executions, so it's not just her, but it's also her twin sister.
[SPEAKER_02]: So amazing job is establishing the stakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Something that I was curious about.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't bother me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wouldn't be a deal breaker by any means, but it did give me pause, is this.
[SPEAKER_02]: At first, we are told she is like faithful to the government, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But then she fails the test.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have her questioning the legitimacy of something.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then after all these plot points, we have her suspicious of the intentions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm thinking, okay, first she's questioning, now she's suspicious, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, her twin sister offered planned, in fact, to join the rebel forces.
[SPEAKER_02]: So her twin sister must not drink the cool lead, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she must not believe in this government.
[SPEAKER_02]: And is that intentional?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so,
[SPEAKER_02]: It just made me like curious because if they're so close as twins, when she haven't known this about her sister, and when she'd be worried about her sister being in the rebel band, and again, none of this are things that have to be in the query letter, but it did start making me wonder in terms of the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just didn't know if it was intentional or not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another that really caught my attention was this.
[SPEAKER_02]: This whole journey begins because she fails her test, and she agrees to twin swap because she wants to find out why she failed.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's nothing about a discovery towards the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we need a line about that, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need a line about how the big reveal is actually tied to the real reason why she failed the test, to have that full circle moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we can really feel that organic feel of the story coming together in a way that,
[SPEAKER_02]: bookends everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the very initial disruption in the end, it's tied to the major reveal.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, all in all, you did a really good job of making me curious about a world that is very complex, right, which is hard to do, and you did it all in 384 words.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, all the applause, Brava!
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to be wishing that I had a twin sister who was really good at parallel parking for my driver's license.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless not.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just going to have to get better at parallel parking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, call you, be handing it across to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, somebody good notes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things I'm actually working on a reel about this, which is actually really funny that this came up today, which is I was listening to Amy Polars podcast and she had Ryan Kougler on
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was talking about incinters how they have a twin hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, one of the things he really thought about when he was crafting sinners was that it has two hooks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is what I think we need to lean into more is this whole like twins double hook thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about it more when we get to the pages, but just tying on my podcasting together here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love the twin stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that really works here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have a really like on-brand title.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that kind of fits into the category here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the query is too long.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the last two paragraphs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like we're overexplaining the situation here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always come back to the idea of a queries job as to hook an agent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think we need to know all of this about, I don't know, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: That they're betrayed it captured by the power hungry and and then the like I just don't I think if the query is doing it's best job That we shouldn't have to over-explain the ending because if this query finds the right agent Then you don't need to over-explain it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know and maybe for an agent that's on the fence if they think well This is this it takes this long to explain the the pitch then you know is this for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know I would
[SPEAKER_00]: lean into the twin stuff as much as possible the plot itself, the double hook being like the twin hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you lean into those two things enough, I don't think you have to over-explain the ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know, those are my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Collie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, can you let us know what was in the pages?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you'll take on them?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the protagonist is at the gym, which is usually filled with like applause and cheering, but now it's really silent, there's an army there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what's happening is they have the four banners of each modification option, physical and intellectual tactical and dexterous.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the protagonist is thinking to herself that this is not how she pictured the
[SPEAKER_02]: silent and anxious with armed guards.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she's with her twin sister and her twin sister is nervous and she's nervous to you and she's thinking about you know how her twin sister has manicured nails and she doesn't and the procedure begins and one person goes up and they get assigned
[SPEAKER_02]: And then another person goes up and they don't get assigned like they become nomots and they have a very dramatic reaction and another person goes up and same with very different dramatic reaction right like this person becomes aggressive the other person screamed and
[SPEAKER_02]: So, throughout this all, we're in the protagonist's head, and she's explaining and describing what's happening, how it's the longest five seconds of her life, when every each person goes up, and their brains are scanned.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, she's holding her breath as, as the 37th brain scan screen remains unchanged.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's, it's, it's dire.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, sounds to me we have a really strong inciting incident.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, most books we sort of go, well, why does the story open now, why today, this seems to answer that?
[SPEAKER_01]: What was your take on the pages themselves?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I definitely think it's starting in the right place, but I don't think it's starting in the right way.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: Place refers to the location in the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to your point, yes, the disruption is working really well here because it's a high stakes moment, but way has to do with execution, has to do with can you really connect with character?
[SPEAKER_02]: Meaning, can you make the reader connect with the character?
[SPEAKER_02]: And can you create a motionality?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you really hook the readers emotions?
[SPEAKER_02]: And can you make it emotionally gripping?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that I think is what needs work here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are many, many paragraphs, our sub-stacks supporters will be able to see this because I kept highlighting them, in which there is absolutely no emotion, no filtering through her interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: The author is focused on collective world building.
[SPEAKER_02]: And collective world building, especially for the genre, is very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to know what the world looks like, but the way the sentences are written, it's all factual.
[SPEAKER_02]: their lines and lines on facts on the world, which can sound like story splinging.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that really just removes the reader from the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a reminder, story splinging is when you introduce an element of the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be anything, it could be like setting custom world character in a way that's framed in a very dry, purely objective way and placed in a way that feels forced.
[SPEAKER_02]: So every book has dry sentences, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like not all sentences can be filtered through opinion or through emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's normal.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if there's too much stories, blaming, then that kind of creates this feeling of, I'm just reading about facts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really inside someone's head and I'm not really feeling what they're feeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: and given the great choice of place in the story, like she should be feeling really big emotions, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: She should be having really, really specific thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's a lot of focus on the world building and that's coming at the expense of character, which I don't think we want.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we want to do both and you can do both.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right now, there's sentences on world building and then sentences on her thoughts and really it's about baking in these sentences together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the one sentence should do two things.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about compressing not so much about adding or removing when it comes to dosage and so many writers have questions on dosage is too much is this too little dosage is really more about doing two things that wants that it is about cutting or adding although it sounds like I'm saying the same thing, but they're actually different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so specific things, just so we're not talking about this in general terms, it is established from the very beginning that she when she pictured this day in her mind She pictured pep rallies and shearing and you know a lot of excitement, however there's guards and anxiousness and everyone's silent and you could hear a pin drop my question is
[SPEAKER_02]: why does she expect, why does she expect something different?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it because, usually, they ceremonies are joyful?
[SPEAKER_02]: And today, ceremony is an exception.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, why isn't her interior already theorizing about the reason, why today is different?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or even giving an opinion on the reason if she already knows the reason?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll give an example from our real world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Imagine that you have a high school senior at their graduation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they've always pictured this day, because you always picture this day.
[SPEAKER_02]: From probably from the day you're like in middle school, even lower school, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you picture your high school graduation, but imagine a senior in June 2020.
[SPEAKER_02]: If they would be going in their head, I did not want to be doing this via Zoom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't get to be with my classmates, my whole life have been dreaming about this, or they might be going, thank God this is a view Zoom.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been dreading this day in my whole life, and now I get to do it over the safety of my home.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever their opinion is, but my point is, because we had COVID, COVID changed the entire graduating experience of all these people throughout the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although not everyone graduates in June, but in certain parts of the world, some people do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a protagonist saying, I did not expect this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Heparalli.
[SPEAKER_02]: But why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is this her expectation?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not enough to tell me that her expectation was something different and needs to make sense, especially because like if there's a reason why the army is there and the army usually isn't there, I bet it's a juicy reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: So why are you telling us?
[SPEAKER_02]: I really wanted to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'll also share this is a macro example, right, of interiority that's missing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll share a micro example.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a line that reads, she's talking to her sister, and she's looking at her sister and just looking at her physically.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her crimson hair is being lightly tugged and twirled by her freshly manicured nails, something that differentiates us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never had my nails done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead, they're chewed down past the fleshy parts of my fingertips.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a really good example of someone who is adding just enough facts that could actually be a gateway to really interesting interiority, but that's missing in these pages right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me explain.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a contrast between her and her sister.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her sister has manicured nails.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her nails are chewed up, bitten down, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Great, contrast is awesome, but don't stop at establishing the facts of contrast.
[SPEAKER_02]: reveal her vulnerability, her insecurities, her sense of self, all her deep and messy emotions, including positive emotions, and needn't only be negative.
[SPEAKER_02]: How does the fact that her sister's nails look different from hers, land inside her, does she take pride in not being vain, assuming she thinks her sister is vain for having her nails done?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does she think it's also that they shared that one difference, that she liked the fact that she's different, doesn't make her feel good?
[SPEAKER_02]: that she not like it, that she wish they could be the same in every single way because it makes her feel closer to her sister.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our listeners might be thinking, you know, CC, you're always asking for more layers of interior yarding and these are the first five pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's only so much a person can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I actually disagree a little bit with that because the point of interior yard is not to share facts.
[SPEAKER_02]: The point of interiority is not to have a protagonist looking at someone's nail and telling me that their nails are different from this other person's nails.
[SPEAKER_02]: The point is to see how your protagonist processes them, what takeaways they gather, what discomfort they experience, what this reveals about them as a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: My interiority course, it's called writing interiority and psychological acuity, starts in, I think it's a week from now.
[SPEAKER_02]: It starts on March 2nd.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are enrolled in that, you are going to see how we talk about the four ways that we can filter interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first way is all about the emotional makeup and it's knee jerk reactions and it's unconscious ways, like bias, fear, desire, blind spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: The second way or the first tier, I should say, since the first very first tier, I don't call first tier.
[SPEAKER_02]: our things like memories and urges and attention hierarchy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then after that we have another tier which is all about like judgements, opinions, even assumptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have a final layer which is so important which is when you really start to play chess with your own mind which is when you start to to
[SPEAKER_02]: theorize and fantasize and project, and I'm saying all this, because actually in the first five pages of most breakout books, you have all these tiers, even though it's just five pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've studied hundreds of them, I know this, and so you have a really great opportunity here because you have twins.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is...
[SPEAKER_02]: This is such a gift in terms of contrast, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have a really interesting society that clearly has really wacky and interesting power dynamics.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wanna feel her fear, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanna feel her active emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanna get her perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are way too many paragraphs here that are just about the world without being filtered through her many tiers of interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope my notes are useful to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I've given you quite a lot to think about,
[SPEAKER_02]: or to rewrite this filtering the whole world building and the events through her unique perspective, you might have a really, really special submission here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just to remind it to the writers out there, you can do so much with action beats as opposed to dialogue text.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember dialogue tags or he said she said, if you say something the character said like holy moly or whatever, he looked at the window of the rocket ship at the three moons shining brightly and yearned for Aurora to be standing next to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got an action beat there that
[SPEAKER_01]: is world-building.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know a create sitting.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's in a rocket ship, world-building these three moons, and he's yearning for someone a war where which gives us a curiosity seat.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're trying to bake in all of these things, don't be afraid to use action beats for interior or table-building, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't feel like you have to separate them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, everybody's made excellent points.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my biggest issue with this submission is it is really well done and yet I have no idea how this is going to stand out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there are so many YA dystopian books out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as an agent, I'm thinking, okay, this could be a good submission, but what's the difference between a good submission in a submission?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to spend all night reading that I have to throw everything aside so that I have to sign it so that I have to clear my schedule so I can sub it next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as an agent who is a generalist, I work on very few books across categories of that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe an agent who is a specialist in this category can see the differentiation.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess for me, the twin hook is so crucial to this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet we are burying it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I did a quick, you know, how many times is a word mentioned.
[SPEAKER_00]: Twin is only mentioned twice in these opening pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, the twin hook is essential to making the standout amongst everything else.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think everything that's happening on these first five pages has to happen in one page.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have to establish the twin double hook really quickly, like the hook of the book, the twin hook, why are they different, why are they, you know, how are they different, how are they the same, the mod's going wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: That has to happen on the first page.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, those are the things we have to establish.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we're spending way too much time on
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I didn't expect the gym to ooze anxiousness and be lined with armguards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, guess what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Your reader did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your reader did expect that because we've read a hundred dystopian white books.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if your reader expects that, then you're setting the reader up for this moment of, okay, so what?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so CCC is alluding to obviously all these great elements of interiority that need to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as the reader, you have to think about how am I going to surprise the reader faster?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the mod's going wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a mention of the twin swap or like can we allude to the twin swap?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know there's there's just there's so much good stuff here And I do think this has a great first talk as I said the hook of the actual book a great second hook the twin hook But we're taking too long to actually
[SPEAKER_00]: yet to the elements that are actually going to set it apart in the first five pages for an agent like me that's a generalist and is going to work on a few of these projects.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just a case of like I think this is really good but you know what makes it great are the things that are going to sing to a lot of different agents and those are my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Collie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we hand it over to you for your query first
[SPEAKER_00]: Dear Carly CZ and Bianca, you have all been so helpful on my past queries.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a specific question for this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I self-published for romance novels last year, but would like to pursue trad pub for my thrillers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how to approach this in a query.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeking representation from a 80,000 worth thriller, such a good girl, which blends diary revelations like in Stacey Williams for Get Me Not, with an older narrator and dark academia atmosphere like in Rebecca McCuy's.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have some questions for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meg left Echo Falls decades ago, after her 19-year-old sister Emily vanished without a trace, but after years of failed fertility treatments in a recent divorce, Meg reluctantly agrees to help her mother run the family bookstore over the holidays.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't take long to see why her mother fled town for a meditation retreat, missing person posters, blanket Echo Falls.
[SPEAKER_00]: The face on them isn't Emily's but a young woman named Caitlyn, and the similarities between the two close-in on Meg like a looming storm.
[SPEAKER_00]: While working at the bookstore, make discovers Emily's journal, missing since her disappearance in 1996.
[SPEAKER_00]: As make delves into her sister's words and sinks further into a bottle of wine with each page, her sister's voice pulls her into the past and into an obsession she can't escape.
[SPEAKER_00]: Emily's diary reveals a secret after secret in the list of fair with the married professor, a mysterious new friend and interactions that suggests make it no Emily as well as she thought.
[SPEAKER_00]: As Meg tracks down the people mentioned in the journal, one name keeps coming out Caitlyn's.
[SPEAKER_00]: The deeper Meg digs, the clearer it becomes that the two disappearances are connected.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meg must uncover the truth about what happened to her sister, not only to save her own sanity, but to try to save Caitlyn, or she may become the next woman echo falls for guests.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm not writing, you can find me working at a library painting with my child or writing indie romances.
[SPEAKER_00]: I published four last year and sold over 10,000 copies between them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Traditional publishing feels like a better fit for my thrillers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I send you the full manuscript?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or in regards to Cole Barton?
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, colleague.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, what you'll take on that?
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so she's so graciously wrote in the word count for us, which is 321 words without the introduction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love everybody's like without my introduction.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're always like, how can I shave off like an extra 15 words or 20 words always makes me smile?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you have to include some kind of introduction and some kind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see you have there everybody trying to shave off your words.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so a couple of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we are missing the hook, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So like does this doesn't a cold?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this right or think that the hook is that first paragraph of plot, you know, Meg left Echo Falls decades ago?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did, did, did, did, did because I don't think that's the hook because it kind of just lands on, you know, helping her mother run the family book sort of holidays.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, if we think okay, is the hook before that?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're including the diary revelations and the comps in the dark academia, that's not really a hook either.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just giving us factual information about why the comps are relevant.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, an example of the character situation, a complication hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what is your character, what situation are they in, and what is the complication that they find themselves in, would be?
[SPEAKER_00]: When Meg returns to Echo Falls to run her mother's bookstore, she discovers her missing sisters 1996 diary, which links a cold case to a modern day kidnapping.
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously you can expand on that a little bit if you want to get into like what the cold case is, but we have to kind of really set the tone for what is actually happening that is the thriller, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like if I read the first half of that, I'm like, where's the thrill?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand what's happening here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this idea that the woman is reminding her a lot of her sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that is great and I love when we get to the end and we're like they're actually connected what this is a great hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just completely buried the lead here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we definitely need to center that hook much more upright because I don't understand what the present day hook is really because again this for me this falls into the situation of
[SPEAKER_00]: this sounds like a great book and yet why does this matter to make?
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously your sister going missing is tragic, like you know, like horror effect, can't even imagine how horrible that would be.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it isn't you personally that this is happening to, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to figure out is the divorce element here, like her coming to come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really interested in the line about as Meg Delves and her sister's words and sinks further into a bottle of wine with each page.
[SPEAKER_00]: her sister's voice, pulls her to a pass, into an obsession she can't escape.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I like this like, is it unreliable, mayerator business, you know, why is she drinking so much?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we trust her?
[SPEAKER_00]: Memories?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, again, it's something that has been done before in terms of the unreliable alcoholic character.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's tried and true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, it's one of those tropes where it is really intriguing to the reader to try to figure out what's going on in her psyche and can add an extra psychological element to the plot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is all very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think if you just figure out how to put the hook at the top, I think you can have some more success here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And your question about how do I fit in this kind of wording about wanting to do trad pub for your thrillers?
[SPEAKER_00]: Great question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't include the copies sold.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say something like I found success self-pullishing romances.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking for an agent to partner with me on my thriller career.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that just says like I understand both worlds.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking for a partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know why I need a partner without kind of over-explaining with the copies and things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think it sounds really interesting to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Collie.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, CC, heading to across to you now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love a good person disappears, other person has to investigate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Story, I know that there's a lot of them out there, but it's just one of those hooks where there's so many fun ways to do it, so many fresh ways to approach it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it really gives the story a very clear structure and a reason why it's so compelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: What we also need, I think, is urgency, the line,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, to save her own sanity, but to try to save Caitlyn or she may become the next woman echo fall for gets I I worry about the pace in terms of like well, why does this have to be solved in X days, you know, like does it have to be solved in X days, preferably does because you really want that ticking time tension and if so why and I if there's a possibility of it being like, you know, something about the
[SPEAKER_02]: similarities between the case and perhaps other cases of the protagonist has uncovered lead her to believe that she has 14 days to do this, you know, which is some type of like time-tension urgency.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that's even possible in this story, but it helps because to Carly's point, which I agree with, is Meg is the protagonist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Her emotional connection to this is her sister.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is super, super tragic.
[SPEAKER_02]: It did happen decades and decades ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no saving her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then the person Meg is trying to save is Caitlin, who is a stranger to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course she empathizes with Caitlin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course she feels there's a lot of empathy.
[SPEAKER_02]: But empathy and curiosity are different emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're totally different emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for reader to spend 80,000 words,
[SPEAKER_02]: with this character, with this protagonist who is bending all her time searching for someone else, who she has no personal connection with.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a hard thing to pull off.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: But usually when it does happen really well, it relies on certain plot points.
[SPEAKER_02]: Plot points like, for example, her own life is starts to be in danger.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she starts unraveling this conspiracy theory, and unbeknownst to her, she puts herself in danger.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a complication that really adds that layer of urgency and of personal stakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or, she is framed.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's another way that this is often done, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, because she starts investigating all of a sudden, she starts being framed for this, so she needs to investigate even more now, or else her freedom is at stake.
[SPEAKER_02]: My point is, this needs to be
[SPEAKER_02]: more urgent to her situation in a way that goes way beyond what you're framing, which are things like to save her own sanity.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am so sorry to say this because it sounds harsh, but to save her own sanity is not enough for a thriller.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like just like truth bomb moment right here, it is just not enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: In life it is, in life it's enough for you to investigate, but in storytelling it's not.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we need more.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another thing that I also
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot that's writing on the fact that she's reading her sister's diaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this like a dual timeline situation?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like one timeline, a pistol area, one timeline present.
[SPEAKER_02]: If so, I think you need to specify that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if not, I'm worried about the pace because how much time are we spending with her sitting around reading a diary.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a very boring scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: In film, it works because what happens in film is that the protagonist sits down to read and then we go into,
[SPEAKER_02]: whatever she's reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the images that are on screen start to be whatever she's reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't work so well in books.
[SPEAKER_02]: So...
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, it can be done.
[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned comps to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it, but I'm just worried about the pace.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's something that my antenna go up whenever I hear this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always go, ugh, it's just going to be one of those thrillers.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not P.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: thrillers need to be P.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, essentially, I don't want second hand fear and second hand urgency.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel very strongly that it needs to be personal, visceral, urgent, and needs to escalate.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have given me great plot points, but they are second hand.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's my take.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kali, what's in the pages?
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so as is alluded to in the query letter, we have our character who is headed home as she is driving.
[SPEAKER_00]: She feels like she's kind of looking for her sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: She sees a flyer when she stops the grocery store to get some groceries because she's fresh in town.
[SPEAKER_00]: She sees the Caitlyn Walker poster that has her height, her weight, her hair color in her age, which reminds her of her sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: She grabs her shopping cart for some groceries, goes up and down the aisles and she's kind of going through putting a couple things in her cart.
[SPEAKER_00]: She gets to the checkout and she's looking for a self checkout because she doesn't want to interact with anybody but there is not so she has to interact with the human.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they kind of do have a little chip chat while they are checking out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It turns out that the person at the register, who's caching her out, now let's her mother knows why she's there and they kind of just talk about her being kind of fresh back in town and going to run the bookstore of the groceries that our character is getting.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has two bottles of wine for her quick grocery trip.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a point of interest and then she turns back, it's a door car, drives to the house and just kind of has a bit of a,
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of connection with her memories about her two-story white Victorian house that does she remember us from growing up?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Khalid, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: The age-old question, are we starting in the right place?
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like that we get into the mysteries super quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is something that I felt like we didn't get with the last query on today's show and I think on in these pages very quickly we
[SPEAKER_00]: missing person.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know the sister is missing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know why she's going home.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's always the question of the like protagonist returning home, super, you know, well-worn trope.
[SPEAKER_00]: For many reasons, like connects with a lot of people, provides a lot of opportunity for story and time and change, all of those things family dynamics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I think it's, is it fine?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's hard to know if there could be a better opening, but not reading the rest of the pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: with these pages is the attraction between Meg and the cashier.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very confused by honestly a lot of it because she hadn't been home in such a long time that I don't know how this person recognized her as
[SPEAKER_00]: the daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just, it just seemed very obvious that she recognized her, but like, how would they recognize her?
[SPEAKER_00]: She hasn't been in town.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because that's the sex past that Keshe is saying, you look so much like your mother, you have to be her daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: that feels forced to me again, totally a possibility of like a quick fix.
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels a bit forced to me again, not impossible.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be maybe she has on her mother's sweater or jacket, which she always wore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, that's, you know, a special broach on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're like, oh, that really looks like Mrs. Barnhart's jacket with the broach.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you have that?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, I think something a bit more like that, as opposed to my next note was just going to be how this
[SPEAKER_00]: Meg and the cashier.
[SPEAKER_00]: This did not provide any, any level of atmospheric tension or this like seriousness that a thriller often brings in the kind of like the The closeness of a small town in the dark and going home and I keep doing this because I'm like on the hand talker And I just I feel like the world should be closing in on her a little bit in this like small grocery store feeling small feeling contained And it was anyway, it was just as very earnest interaction with the cashier and that I found
[SPEAKER_00]: really did not serve the book as well as it could.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, even something like, you know, she was looking for the self-checkout.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she says, after picking up the rest of my essentials, I rolled my cart straight past the checkout stand where a perky young blonde is wiping down her register and beg the universe for this grocery store to put in a self-checkout aisle since I was here last.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's been years it's possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're in a town and you're looking at the cashier, then we're also with the self-checkout B, like I just don't understand the logistics of a human walking through this grocery store, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe I'm projecting this town to be a bit smaller than it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe self-checkouts are around the corner, but in every second self-checkout I've been to it's like there's the cash and there's the self-checkout.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's not this where do I go?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you're taking in
[SPEAKER_00]: the experience all at the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I had so many reservations about the actual physicality of this scene that took me out of the reading experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's anything wrong or bad about what's happening here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I just, again, was just taken out of the scene so many times because I would have restructured it in a lot of different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not that it doesn't have to be a checkout scene or it doesn't have to be a coming home scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just have the interaction completely different.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have it much more atmospheric.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would have so much more kind of through lines between her past and her present and how all of these things are kind of coming together at this moment before she comes home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sees her house again, but those are my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Kali.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, C-C.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I kind of wanted to build off of what Carly said in terms of the cashier interaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I missed something, but right now, she hasn't been in this town in decades.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking decades, okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: She pulls up to literally like have someone swipe her groceries and, you know, she can still she can back them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the first thing this person says to her is, so you're staying over at Mama's place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no indication through interiority or dialogue of how the person would know this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can't be because she recognizes her because the cashier says she's only been in town for five years.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that does not add up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this, I swear this is not me being nitpicky.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're thinking, okay, but that's an easy fix, C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she'll put the sweater as Bianca said, yes, yes, but, but here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: My question to you is, why do you want the cashier to know?
[SPEAKER_02]: because to Carly's excellent point, if someone knows something about you before you're ready to reveal it, that can add tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that makes someone feel vulnerable, but only if you activate interiority and atmosphere and mood, and you have it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's, and again, I think you haven't, and I suspect, this is my suspicion.
[SPEAKER_02]: My armchair, psychologist, no armchair, story, fixer.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a good title.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's my diagnosis, whatever my title is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you want to establish information and you were like, it can't be info dumpy so it can't be interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm gonna have her talk to this lady and there's no power imbalance here.
[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot start a story in a place with no power imbalance and you cannot start a story like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just can't.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not allowed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am saying you can't do it, okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, if this cashier is the person that you want her to be talking to, then you have to totally change the power between them, the power dynamics between them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're like, no, actually the cashier is a nobody, I just really wanted it, because I want to convey information here right, then change it up.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's no longer going to be talking to the cashier people, the cashier has got to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, anyway, I fully agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I fully agree with with Carly's diagnosis if this interaction is just being like, it not only makes no sense, it's not serving your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, we don't know enough about the plot points to know whether there might be something nefarious actually about this cashier, but if there is, you haven't indicated it through curiosity seeds or clues.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another thing I wanted to talk about,
[SPEAKER_02]: and watch out for emotional calibration.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is something I'm always looking for in the first five pages because your protagonist should be feeling something and if the emotional calibration isn't right in the first five pages, chances are it's not right throughout the entire manuscript.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will offer an example.
[SPEAKER_02]: The protagonist is inside the grocery store, she sees a missing poster saying Caitlyn Walker, height, weight, hair.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what we get after that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm gonna read it to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Emily was 19 around the same height and weight.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I squint, it looks just like her.
[SPEAKER_02]: A chill slithers down my spine.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the whole paragraph.
[SPEAKER_02]: Three sentences.
[SPEAKER_02]: What you need to do in my opinion is invert the order.
[SPEAKER_02]: As soon as she sees the missing poster, the first thing that we should get after that is visceral emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we feel before we think, especially when it comes to visceral emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a non-negotiable and storytelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go study thrillers, go study other books that have deep, deep fear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fear but conveyed through surprise, of course, not fear that protagonist was expecting to feel.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was expecting to see this poster.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the second she sees it first, the chill needs to run down her spine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we need to get her interior already processing, Emily was 19.
[SPEAKER_02]: same height and age.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I squint, I just look like her.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds silly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me saying, oh, move this line up.
[SPEAKER_02]: It actually makes a big difference in terms of emotional calibration.
[SPEAKER_02]: Big, big, big difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a mistake, a common mistake, I see.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's one that's easily flexible if you know what to look for.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's really important to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing is that I felt that you might be a little bit of an overwriter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I highlighted a couple of lines where you were like saying the same thing
[SPEAKER_02]: one time right after the other and that often happens on the storyteller is like anxious to make sure that we really know about something and so they say it twice and trust me when I say you don't need to say it twice.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got it the first time and yeah, I like the idea of her coming back
[SPEAKER_02]: home, because there's a lot that can be leveraged here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that you should pick a part in, you should build this scene, this coming back home scene, in a way that includes disruption and power and balance, as it all these other really great elements that ramp up the tension.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Colin and CC for your feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will find their notes in Tuesday's sub-stux so that if you're a paid subscriber, you will find them there and you'll be able to see all of them written down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next week we will have our welcome to interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we will see you then.
[SPEAKER_01]: Goodbye everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency,
[SPEAKER_01]: and the views expressed by Colley on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.