[SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to Table Talk, a show where I chat with other creators in the TTRBG space about how they run their tables.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Danger'd Andrews, the GM and host of D&D Ark, and joining us at the table today is an actor, writer, improviser, GM, and actual play performer.
[SPEAKER_00]: who was a writer and actor on the game Dispatch, as well as being featured in shows like Story Quest, The Wandering Path, World of Darkness's Official Vampire, The Masquerade, Actual Play, and recently as a GM for Dungeons and Cabins, Mayana Barron.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming by to chat with me to get us started.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you just let us know a little bit about yourself, your history with TTRPGs and the different shows you're involved in?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've been playing TTRPGs since I was in college.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the first one I actually played was the one-ring system, which is a Lord of the Rings game.
[SPEAKER_01]: My friends were really big Lord of the Rings fans.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we played like one session of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think we tried to start a star-finder game.
[SPEAKER_01]: months later, did one session of that as well, and then it immediately fell off the face of the earth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I was working at Riot, I was asked to join a D&D group that was starting with some people that I worked with on my team.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we'd like play after hours, and that campaign went on for like a little over a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think I didn't really play another TTRPG for a little while until I auditioned for Vampire the Masquerade.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I auditioned for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I got really in a vampire and then after I did that show and started to get more involved in actual play, I started getting really into D&D.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think my D&D obsession probably started around like 2023.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when I really dove in pretty aggressively at that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: that's a really interesting progression path into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious to kind of see what your general take is coming to D&D after first trying out a whole bunch of other different systems.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think like, from what I can remember of the systems, I mean, I think in general and it depends on, you know, what the style of your particular table is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like whatever system works for the story or trying to tell is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like the unique mechanics that differentiate the systems, I think it just you have to pick the system that best suits the thing you're trying to do with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think D&D is probably the most robust system.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it has like the widest use case because although it's like traditionally set in a western kind of fantasy-inspired setting, I think it has the capacity to encapsulate a lot more versus something like vampire, which you know, again, is super fun and I really enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of feels like it leans more into contemporary urban like rooted in a city type story, which again, if that's what you like to do, it's great for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think if you want to explore other worlds, I think it can be a little more challenging.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, from my experience, I would generally agree that as far as flexibility goes, D&D is a little bit more modular than most of the other systems I've dipped my toes in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a huge part of the appeal, which I'm part of that, I think, is the cultural prevalence of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, chatting with some people from overseas, I know that in Asia, Call of Kathulu is much more prominent and prevalent of a system than D&D is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a little weird to think about, but kind of the way that we retrofit D&D to fit
[SPEAKER_00]: different genres and games and like the way that we kind of force that to fit into different stories that we want to tell, they kind of treat the call of Catholic system the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's so interesting and I wonder how much of that is just a matter of like different cultural tastes and how much of that is like the under the hood, how the systems are actually
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I also wonder if like the setting and the tone and vibes is more like intriguing because I think like the horror that comes out of like Eastern storytelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think there is a lot of overlap with like you know psychological.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think there is probably some some synergy there, but that is surprising and interesting to hear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I now I'm curious, I wonder, what other continents and like cultures preferred tea to your P.G.
[SPEAKER_01]: is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I'm surprised to hear that it's cathood.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know specifics, but it's always interesting when I can chat with people from other countries in kind of like what their take on the medium is.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the interviews that I had a little while back was with the podcast, The Infinite Tavern, which the host of that are based in India.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was fascinating to unpack.
[SPEAKER_00]: Their entire TTRBG culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: all of the mile markers that we've had in the time that TTRPGs are kind of taken hold in the States.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is the origins of TTRPGs technically like Western?
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if you were to go back to like, what is the first categorical TTRPG is if it's something that came out of the West or not?
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm curious about that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have like a book that goes through like the history of TTRPGs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to crack that open and see what it sets in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think a lot of that comes down to interpretation and what you define as a TTRPG because I know that that can be like there's some interesting conversations to be had there of how strictly or narrowly you define the medium.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I know there's a lot of storytelling games that are separate from the history of TTRPGs that very cleanly kind of lump and fold into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to get really esoteric, it feels like it's just kind of a modern day extension of classic like oral storytelling traditions 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it just depends on how heavy you want to get with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can really trace it back to anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I think the combination of like the gamified nature of it really does it opens up a lot of avenues that I know people who have less of an acting background tend to really enjoy as a
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense too, because it does ask a lot of the players, I mean, in TGR, we just in general, that's a lot of their players in terms of emotional, commitment, level, and performance level.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think if it is something going back to the call of Kathu, the thing like, Call of Kathu does sort of give you a guide as to what emotions you should be feeling because it is so rooted in like sanity and loss of sanity.
[SPEAKER_01]: So at least you kind of know the arena you're gonna be playing in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so to kind of turn this to like, you, your history and your sensibilities specifically, what kind of aspects of the systems that you've played tend to jump out at you as like, what is your preferred mode of play?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in general and I'm biased here because like I've been doing improv since I was a teenager and I got my degree in acting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think my preferred style of play is role playing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is the part of TTRPGs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy the most and I think
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that I've struggled with as a GM and I'm trying to work on better integrating is how do you take those role play storytelling moments and bring those into combat because for me combat sort of feels like when you shift out of the mode of telling a story and you shift just into straight up gameplay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that there's ways, and I've seen it, like I've seen it on critical roll.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it on Dimension 20, and I've seen it at other tables where you can still incorporate storytelling into encounters and into combat.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that both me as a GM and my players, I think there has to be a lot of effort kind of put into
[SPEAKER_01]: making sure and maintaining that those two things are happening at the same time, and I think between the two of them roleplaying typically goes the way side first when it comes to combat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it can be difficult to really do that balancing act.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like especially compared to more rules, light, story, centric systems, D&D has fewer tools to be able to manage that balance.
[SPEAKER_00]: it can be a lot of work on the GM's part and it really does come down like the overall table vibe and what the priorities are to get those two aspects in harmony.
[SPEAKER_00]: But those are to me some of the most compelling moments are when that balance does hit and when that can work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I'm trying to make peace with as a GM too is that, like, as long as the players are having fun, even if it's not like the most amazing Oscar winning performances, you know, we've ever seen like, it's okay to let the game just be a game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and let the players just do the thing that feels natural to them and allows them to have a good time because ultimately like we're all opting in, you know, as long as you're not doing like an actual player, something we're all opting in to just do this as a leisure activity and everyone's level of desire to, you know, go ham in the leisure activity is different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of, and like this can be tricky to balance on either side of it, but just from both the GM perspective and the player perspective, I feel like the two different modes of play, the onus is more on the players in combat to bring in those storytelling beats.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I feel like out of combat, that is much more in the GM's domain to facilitate and bring that out, just because when you're in combat, since it is so mechanically focused, a lot of that tends to come down to the inner world of the characters and motivations and tactics take kind of the forefront in how role playing tends to play out.
[SPEAKER_00]: which the GM can facilitate in how they set the stage for the combat and in presenting obstacles that draw those kinds of conversations out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's been an interesting thing that I've been trying to gauge for our show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the GM for our primary campaign.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in between seasons right now and we've got one of our other players is running a bonus side campaign
[SPEAKER_00]: to really try and break down and analyze like, okay, what are all of the lessons that I can learn from this to apply to season two when we are bringing that into focus and in combat,
[SPEAKER_00]: there's some unique opportunities to really dwell on character mindset and what tactics say about who your character is and what their motivations are.
[SPEAKER_00]: In a way that doesn't really tend to come up outside of combat in more of the social encounters and in the more role play heavy aspects of the game outside of where the mechanics come in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting knowing what tools
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like there's a lot of lessons to be learned from trying out other systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always learn a ton when we're presented with a different toolset because it really shapes where your brain goes in how you problem solve.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the toolkit from Playing Call of Kathulu very different from the mindset that you get from playing in a kids on bike's game from playing in a, I'm about to play a game of masks off Mike and so looking into that being a predominantly role play centric system.
[SPEAKER_00]: where everything is kind of expanded out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And combat just really comes down to did you win or didn't you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's more about the emotional inner journey of the characters.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to like get little bits and pieces from each of those systems that I can bring to the next thing that I do in the different games that you've done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this can be beyond TTRPGs from your different writing projects or your acting projects.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are there any little nuggets like that that particularly stand out to you as lessons you've learned that have helped your game play at the table?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, that's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that like, I mean for me predominantly like I am more fixated on the story and the arcs of things than I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess like the moment to moment and again, I need to figure out how to better incorporate both of them into my games because I think I'm much more interested in the characters going on an emotional journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the systems that I think is really interesting is Yiziba's bed and breakfast, basically they have, um, yeah, it's really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's states to be GMless.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it works better with a game master, but, um, you know, it's a magical hotel and people have different levels of stint at the hotel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So some people live at the hotel permanently and some people come in for like a season and those character sheets are all built out with like a beginning state and an end state for that guest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh,
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: As you play, you basically accumulate points towards that character's end state for like one character in particular he's like a gloomy cloud man and he's like got a business suit on and his end state is like becoming a sunny man and you know wearing like a Hawaiian shirt and all of his character abilities and skills are associated and like being all business or like learning how to loosen up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's a really cool way that I've seen mechanically incorporating like a character's arc and it kind of feels structurally like episodic television and I think one of the things that's really cool and exciting but also really challenging about you know other systems is you have a character and you've brought them into the world and
[SPEAKER_01]: The journey is going to hopefully change them by the end, but you don't know necessarily unless your player is very savvy.
[SPEAKER_01]: What that character needs, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you don't know what that character needs in order to become actualized, it's tricky to figure out what the journey for that character is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like coming in with a really clear want or agenda for a character is very helpful to the GM in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: but again, not everybody is playing D&D to do a full character arc.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think everybody wants that, but I don't think a lot of people necessarily come in with that as the explicit goal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though I think it should be, but I think again, it depends on the desires of your players and the desires of, you know, your purpose in running a game together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I have a group that I run games for, and it's basically on vibes,
[SPEAKER_01]: they're all kind of newer players and I adore them and I think it's been a really valuable learning experience for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like we did a smaller first campaign together and then we are now starting a second campaign and there was a desire when we were doing character creation to do a more in-depth story and we talked about character motivations and we talked about interconnecting relationships but then like when we get to the table and we're actually playing that out
[SPEAKER_01]: we're all busy people and we're getting together to play and laugh with our friends for a couple hours and so I think I can still put them on a path but also understand that like it's not going to be this rich, Tolkien game of thrones thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be like cool fun friends going on a little thing together and that's just as valid, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: The story discovery and emergent narrative that you get from the table is a lot more compelling than a lot of what you can pre-plan.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's only so much you can hold in your head at a given time when you're going into a game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some helpful stuff for me that I've clocked from other systems that I'm trying to
[SPEAKER_00]: assimilate into my toolkit.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the big ones that I absolutely loved, we last year for our Halloween special, did a thing in the Alien TTRPG.
[SPEAKER_00]: We played one of their modules, they have pre-gen characters for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that I really appreciated that they did was they gave every character, not everyone had both, but they had on the character shoots that everyone had within the party a rival and a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I love that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: And simplifying it down to just something that small and having like your core motivation and a small gist of even separate from everything that happens organically at the table, knowing that all right, I am predisposed to being friendly or towards this person and being more antagonistic with this other one, already fosters a lot of really interesting story telling
[SPEAKER_00]: So things like that, I really appreciate and like I said, there's only so much you can hold in your head at a given time trying to take stuff like that and like a simple one sentence goal and like touchstone for the character does so much both.
[SPEAKER_00]: as a player to like better connect to my character and as a GM that is such a gift if a player comes with that prepackaged.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a conversation that I was having with one of my friends for a home game where they were struggling a little bit to connect and it was a little bit of a breakthrough for both of us and that was kind of where I was recently forming my thing of like okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where is the line between responsibility for the players and the GMs to make this story?
[SPEAKER_00]: We were chatting about how he was basically feeling a little frustrated and aimless given the set up of the story and that like, yeah, I know what our goal is, but I feel kind of detached and disconnected from it and I know why we're doing this, but I don't know why I'm doing this and it also didn't help that I had a
[SPEAKER_00]: crystal clear motivation for my character, so we were having a little bit of a disconnect there, but at a certain point, it's on us to make our own motivation.
[SPEAKER_00]: The GM can help, but at the end of the day, ultimately we're the ones piloting these characters, so we have to be the ones deciding what's important to them and what makes them tick.
[SPEAKER_00]: and beyond just the setup of, I'm going here because the story told me to.
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, you have to have something more than that driving you to want to do the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree with that, and I think that it is like, you know, you can have a conversation with your GM about feeling like you don't have a core motivation, but it is on you as a player to find one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the GM already has to manage an insurmountable amount of information, manage the emotional, you know, reality is not only of the characters, but of the players at the table.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, you know, there's all this rhetoric about like the GM is a player too, you know, they are playing a game as much as everybody else at the table is, and their role is so expansive.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it asks a lot of an individual to hold.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think as a player, you do have to opt in to the emotional reality of being invested and choosing something to be invested in, you can't just kind of wait for the GM to decide and solve that for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so much of that comes down to the conversations off the table, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: A session zero doesn't have to be limited to just the one sitting.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be an ongoing conversation for our current bonus campaign.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just had kind of a meeting since this one's a little bit of a longer one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Checking in of like, okay, now that we're about like
[SPEAKER_00]: four sessions into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we feel about wherever things going?
[SPEAKER_00]: What all do we want out of this?
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we make sure that we are on track to get the things out of this that we are looking for?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was one of the healthiest things that we could have done for that game.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been going well so far to begin with, but
[SPEAKER_00]: It was such an extraordinarily valuable thing to do, to set aside time, to just check in and get that pulse on how everything is going and what everyone's goals are that gave us all
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of a second wind going through now that we've gotten past like the first major hurdle of the story that was set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a really good way to kind of reinvigorate reinvest ourselves all in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of problems like that lack of investment.
[SPEAKER_00]: can really be mitigated by having those kinds of conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a great point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I think that check-ins, I know it can be nerve-wracking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I fall into this as well in my own home games.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, unless something goes wrong, like you should be having conversations before something goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should be maintaining the relationship when it's stable so that when or if things you know are challenging you have a foundation of trust and communication in place to maneuver through that and like with something as I think nebulous or ever shifting as a story can be yeah checking in and making sure people are on board and invested is a really great idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy the different abstract lessons that you learn from playing these kinds of games.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that you can definitely take those into like other forms of your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I literally just came from a conversation with a friend earlier today.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about like how to better communicate with your partner when.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you want to do it when things are good, when you are in a good mood so that when you are tired or you are stressed or you are in a moment of challenge you have a foundation in place of like we've already had a conversation about how to take care of each other when we're in a bad place rather than being in a bad place and then operating at a deficit because you didn't have the conversation earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like I am better heard when we have those conversations and it's a major perspective shift for me, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of things that I don't talk about my own behavior until we have those kinds of discussions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that it's something that is playing a lot of
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, TTRBG is especially with people that I play with TTRBG is frequently with the depth of my relationship with them is a lot more because I spend so much time with them and even down to when you're playing and people are more locked in or are struggling with something or they're, you know, having a hard time and so their characters making some questionable decisions is sort of a like externalization of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting opportunity to be like, I'm observing these patterns and I just want to make sure that those are serving both of us, you know, not only as friends, but also like for a story that we're trying to tell together in our free time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's some interesting perspectives that I've got on PVP when it comes to TTRPGs, but I know that that's why they can be so contentious as because there is so much of a personal stake and investment in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is the risk of them being detrimental to groups.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I completely understand why it is such an off-limits thing for most tables.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that a lot of the negatives of it can be mitigated.
[SPEAKER_00]: by having those out of table conversations and like really clear expectation setting.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be kind of cathartic and lead to some really interesting and kind of deeper and more fulfilling connections.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can make sure that it doesn't get personal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if there's no bleed because I think that like PVP as a character be depending on the two characters involved can be as you said, a very compelling narrative moment for a character that can maybe teach them something about themselves, but I mean people put so much personal stake into their characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like one of the things that I at least I've felt has been helpful to me is like I make so many characters for so many things now That like they're all a part of me in some way, but I think then I have less preciousness about any of them because I understand that they are not an extension of my personal value and identity They are a conduit by which I can tell a story and
[SPEAKER_01]: if they move through the world in a way that causes them to be responded to negatively or to not be understood, I understand now that that has less to do with me as a person and more to do with a narrative.
[SPEAKER_01]: If PvP is something that you permit at your table, I think that it is like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to that point, it's like, yeah, if you can align on those in advance of like this is not anything personal like I have no beef with you the person, but if our characters have a disagreement, that is a really compelling way to resolve it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a thing that I've stumbled into in a home game that I've now started doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: every single time is I will just outright say my character feels this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I Dan do not.
[SPEAKER_00]: My character is going to try to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't let them succeed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mmm, that's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's awesome because I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we struck with media literacy as a culture now, but I think that it is good to lay that out because also, again, it's like one of the interesting things about TTRPGs and I think it's good and bad is you don't have the opportunity to like save scum the way you would in a video game.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you can have conversations with your GM about like actually I don't really like how that went down.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would really like to write comment.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that you can do that with everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is a big conversation every time you do do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so like laying it out for the players of just like, hey, I'm doing this because I think it's narratively interesting, but I don't believe that this is the right thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's super helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: That actually transitions really well into one of the other questions that I had for you, which is kind of the flip side of how your different experiences has affected you at the table, how has your experiences at the table affected you in your writing or your acting sensibilities?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know a big thing like what you just said about the finality of everything and how it
[SPEAKER_00]: forces you to think about things more flexibly and in a different perspective, do you find that that impacts any of your writing sensibilities or styles and have those lessons blend over into writing and acting projects?
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think one of the things that I try to figure out as a writer a lot of the times, like as you're, you know, in the writing that I'm doing, I'm writing a lot of dialogue.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people don't speak in the realities of what they're feeling, they speak around them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just how humans communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a very brave and vulnerable thing to come to someone and go like, I feel really hurt by that thing you said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, they will usually do a bunch of other things that aren't that, because it can be scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes,
[SPEAKER_01]: The harmful, depending on the relationships you have with certain people, to express your emotions in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what that makes for in T.T.
[SPEAKER_01]: or B.G.
[SPEAKER_01]: storytelling is very compelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how would a character who is, let's say they're a loner, who's found themselves in a group of people, and are not used to trusting people, how does that manifest in the choices they make role play-wise?
[SPEAKER_01]: How does that manifest in the choices they make combat-wise?
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, for me as a player when I'm embodying a character, I am trying to figure out, like, because a lot of the role play you probably run into with games is like long conversations about explicitly how you're feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that those are really awesome, but I also think that if it was a television show, that's not how that conversation would go.
[SPEAKER_01]: That conversation would go for half as long and use probably a third of that many words.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you'd still get the gist of it, but it wouldn't be as explicit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, we have these two dualities where I think that it is important, especially when again, you're playing with your friends for leisure time to be super clear about everyone's intentions because it's like, let's have a good time, let's not, you know, get upset at each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you're thinking about the juiciness of storytelling aspects of it, you don't want to confess your feelings for the character right away.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to resolve with your rival right away because that's not narratively interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to find the beats as if you were, you know, mapping out a season of television or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to map out the beats of like, what are the things that are going to make my character go from not trusting this person to 100% trusting this person?
[SPEAKER_01]: And those are probably like one beat per session for like 10 to 12 sessions before you get to that end state.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that like for some people at the table that's frustrating because it's like, I just wanna see you guys get along.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like we will, but you have to let that journey evolve organically through the experiential storytelling before you earn the resolution.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the reward for like staying on the journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think where some of the difficulty in achieving that comes from is I think just as a medium it makes subtlety a lot harder to pull off effectively.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially because you have no certainty over how much time you have and
[SPEAKER_00]: in what capacity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Since everything is so open to change and there is a certain amount of unpredictability to it, you don't know what opportunities you do or don't have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you really think that somebody else that I interviewed, Julia Lobo, who was a critical ward nominee for Best Player in a
[SPEAKER_00]: as they're acting mantra and as their actual play mantra because they also do off-Broadway theater.
[SPEAKER_00]: That lesson I think fits with this medium so incredibly well and that's a thing that I've really taken to heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh 100%, I think you can't do a scene where you do nothing, but I think, you know, you have to take big swings because yeah, you don't know how many scenes you're going to get to do whatever it is you're trying to do, but I think within those big swings, you need to be able to track like my act one, my act two and my act three.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like just one version of your character whose unhealed is going to do very different things than the act to version of your character that's torn between who they used to be and who they want to be now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then your act three character is going to make, you know, choices aligned with all of the mistakes and successes and failures that they've made throughout the journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think on that point, I actually am a huge advocate for as a GM, knowing in advance how many sessions you're going to do with a particular story.
[SPEAKER_01]: if you want to do a long running campaign where you all meet once a week for five years and it's just vibes great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think people's lives, especially I think for just like the phase of life that I am in, I've got friends who are getting engaged, getting married, having children.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their life states are going to change pretty drastically and their levels of availability are going to change, you know, natural
[SPEAKER_01]: drastically.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think it's helpful for, you know, certain people, I think to know, okay, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got 12 sessions with this character.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got 20 sessions with this character.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got five sessions with this character.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the things that I can do knowing that going in, rather than going like, I don't know how long this journey is going to take.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I know how much to
[SPEAKER_01]: play or not play.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things that works really well for actual play in its favorite is knowing you're like, okay, well, I've got like 12 episodes with this character.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can literally parse it out into like four, four, and four.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where you're like, okay, cool, my episode four, I need to be in this kind of different place now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, that is a fantastic point, and it is interesting to pinpoint timing of things, and I think a lot of it does come down to having a preconception of where you want to go with the character, knowing what kind of story the GM wants to tell, and what your table is generally going for, and having kind of the perceptiveness and the ears to look out for,
[SPEAKER_00]: where are the opportunities where I can jump on these beats that are important to me to hit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, to the point about sessions heroes, it's like our time is limited.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we want to make the most of the time we do have together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, yeah, over communication, rather than under communication, will always, I think, help resolve those issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: To transition and change topics a little bit, I want to swing around to dungeons and cabins since it's such a unique distillation of a lot of things that I want to pick your brain about what the experience was like for you as a GM for that and just sort of generally how you got involved there and what the like back end of that all looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm I'm good friends with Johnny Stan and he did the first season of Dungeons and Cabins or the first event of it and he recently had a child and I think was going into like my level of investment and time and you know is going to be spent differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he recommended me to Sammy who is the organizer of Dungeons and Cabins.
[SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, they were looking for GMs for the second week.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that, you know, worked out great for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I got offered that in like May, and then the weekend was at the like end of September.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we had, you know, different meetings talking about going into the weekend like what the expectations were, what the like actual logistics and schedule is going to look like, and we got the campaign story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things that was challenging for me was just like, I do a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's challenging when you're like, oh man, I have very limited time to prepare for all of these different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I definitely like over indexed trying to prepare four London cabins and I had a session zero with my campers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the thing that I walked away with
[SPEAKER_01]: from the session zero was like, okay, this is a very synergistic team, and they all seem aligned in what they want out of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were all very efficient players together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think like I could have maybe challenged the more in the mechanics and the combat of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were a lot of combats in the campaign that they ran that weekend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that I was maybe a little too lenient in some ways with like I love them to do flanking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And still very barbs or things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think like for me, I am not as a GM trying to like beat my players.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not trying to like hurt my players.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to give them a challenge, but I'm not actually trying to like cause them to die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that we had a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: We laughed a lot, but I definitely got my ass kicked in a lot of those combat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it was just like, well,
[SPEAKER_01]: they're really savvy and they know how to work together as a team and they are all in really good communication with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if anything, I was just kind of proud.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was court's party for week two and I think that they really got along very lovely together and I don't know if that was down to because Sammy matched a really good team of people together and I'm happy to see that even after camp they still, you know, chat with
[SPEAKER_01]: each other on discord and I think they walked away as a really strong party after that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they seemed like an especially tight unit.
[SPEAKER_00]: From the outside looking in, they were definitely one of the most cohesive teams off the table as well as within it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very proud of them and I think like I didn't encourage that behavior one way or the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like I'm going to let you guys fly and you take, you know, this is your weekend.
[SPEAKER_01]: You choose how to best have fun and I think they all very naturally gravitated towards each other and they were going on hikes together and they were, yeah, they were just really locked in with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was nice to see a crew getting along so well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up the GM challenge of making sure that you're not going too easy on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I similarly have kind of the mindset of, for me, the ideal place to land is if I can structure and balance the combat and the challenges so that the players just barely win.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I think that that's a good idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I've seen other GMs that I've played with who are able to walk that line a lot better.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is definitely a part of my journey as a GM that I'm still working towards.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause like, I think I am very sensitive to if I feel like people are frustrated.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it can feel bad, you know, to make somebody upset because of a thing you did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think my emotional resilience journey is definitely like, okay, look like we're here to play a game, we're here to do this obstacle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause ultimately it's like at the end of the day, like the obstacle is going to hopefully reward you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and at the end of the day, it is, it's a compromise, it's a conversation, it's a challenge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm curious about for slotting into a story and campaign like that, where you are very limited and strict in the timing that you have to set and in the beats that have to tell a story that comes together in that kind of setting that folds in with other tables around you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure that there's a lot less flexibility to be able to thread that needle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you find that the constraints of that campaign was that challenge really inspiring?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did it push you to grow in specific ways as a GM?
[SPEAKER_00]: Were there any things that you might do differently on the back end now?
[SPEAKER_01]: The way that they split up the story was, you know, the teams all went on different dissonant missions on the like the first half of the second day and then everybody sort of came back together and we're on similar missions in the second half of that first full day and then the second full day was mostly just getting everybody to the same point together.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, it's very smart that they came up with a narrative justification for like we're all sitting in the same room and we're all kind of hearing each other, you know, that the constraints of the space are like we're all playing in the same physical area and so you want to honor the fact that there are people in a room with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think in that regard, I think it was very clever the way that they structured it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the thing that I would want to see going forward would be, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the villain was very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was sort of like a follow up villain to the villain from the first.
[SPEAKER_01]: season for lack of better treatment this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I would want to see maybe more seating of the villain more like my big thing with villains in tabletop games in general is I want to feel the presence of the villain more
[SPEAKER_01]: completely throughout the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the reasons why straw is a beloved campaign is that straw is this ever present threat versus like your hearing hints about this bad guy and then you see him and you hate him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we also just take for granted of like where the good guys, that's the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to hate the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I want to know why I'm supposed to hate the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want a personal stake in hating the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think I would love
[SPEAKER_01]: maybe better incorporated in the future.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, again, it's like we're playing for the fun and the love of the classicness of D&D as well in a vein like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The one thing I also found very interesting was like the mix in skill levels with the parties.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there were some people who were like had never played before, people who had been playing for years, people who were sort of in the middle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if it was your first time playing D&D,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there is value in completing a story, the first time you go out with D&D, because more often than not, that is not people's experience, the first thing they play.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think there was a lot of advanced kind of mechanical and storytelling things happening there, that made it really unique and memorable, but also a very specific experience that is not necessarily replicable outside of that context.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and there was also timing-wise too.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were playing with the 2024 updated rules.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the time of that campaign, they were recently released enough that it was a little bit of a playing field leveler in that it was kind of new to everyone across the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one really had a ton of time to get invested into that new rule set.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it was interesting seeing even though there were varying skill levels like at my table, we had somebody who it was their first D&D experience period.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we had a couple of people who had been playing for several years.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had people playing from other earlier editions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a double-edged sword since the 2024 updates are in some ways simpler and in other ways more complicated.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like overall it also in terms of like the general power creep that 5E was experiencing over time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like 2024 is another fairly big jump up in terms of player character power level.
[SPEAKER_00]: That can be an interesting thing to try to juggle and maneuver around.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can 100% see the difficulty in trying to adequately challenge the players when even like the system in this new form is making that harder and harder by giving them more and more of like a starting base power level to jump off from.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I completely agree, and I think looking back on it now, I think what I would have done is I kind of wish I had jail broken some of those encounters a little bit and tweak some of the enemies to just make it a little more a little more challenging and also a little more specific to my players.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's definitely an area that if I do come back, I would love to try and challenge myself to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: what I found a really helpful resource and this was a thing that one of my players put me on to is the book, the monsters know what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a great book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm cracking through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've pulled at it for a couple encounters that I've structured around that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had taken more of what I'd learned from that book and applied it to this for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very informative even just to flip through briefly for the mindset of building encounters around what is this monster good at what situation can you set up where they will thrive the most.
[SPEAKER_00]: more than one encounter that I've done throughout D&D arc and through various home games, where I've kind of fudged and broken things a little bit in order to really make that monster shine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a personal favorite of mine that I remember off hand was where everyone's fighting a bunch of shadow demons.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I gave them an additional ability because they have built in that they basically have kind of rogue like elements where they can sneak attack.
[SPEAKER_00]: They can bonus action hide if they're within darkness or dim light.
[SPEAKER_00]: I gave them basically as a crowd built in an extra ability where they can disperse themselves into a cloud of darkness where they forego the ability to attack, but create
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was such a cool way to work around that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like kind of really lean into, all right, they've got these abilities.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to put them in a situation where they can use them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't really contrive the environment, but if I give them this extra little thing, then they've got the ability, I've got to be able to use it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've managed to make it through most of my questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do just want to make sure before we wrap up, if there's any other miscellaneous things that you want to make sure that we get to, things that you don't want to be left unsaid, topics you want to touch on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that like,
[SPEAKER_01]: table top games are just such a formative useful tool for people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that if someone's out there who's apprehensive to try one, obviously there's a lot of factors that go into making it the right experience, but I think the effort is worth it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there are so many valuable tools for relationships, tools for communication, tools for problem solving tools for patients, I also think there's such a useful tool in like how to contextualize being in community with one another.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I think that the classic stereotype with a lot of first D&E characters, it's like you're the rogue who goes off by themselves all the time, but I think the beautiful lesson that can be learned when you play a lot of these games is that you're only stronger when you work together with other people, because even breaking it down into class differences, not class, like financial, but class in terms of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: barbarian people are inherently good at certain things and other people are inherently bad at other things and by finding the gaps where you can fill in and work together as a team with other people, you can cover for all of those gaps together and sort of like a beautiful like puzzle piece situation and be stronger than any of you would be separately and I think that that's
[SPEAKER_01]: a really cool lovely take away from these games.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if anybody is apprehensive to try one, you definitely should.
[SPEAKER_00]: For anybody wanting to get more involved in TTRPGs or in actual play projects or events like conventions or dungeons and cabins and things like that, what advice would you give to somebody wanting to get involved?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I think like if you want to get involved, one, be very strategic and discerning about who you inform on those journeys with because there is such a level of emotional investment and time investment in tabletop stuff and actual play by extension, I think also be kind to yourself and be considerate of your own, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Needs and boundaries when it comes to what you can give to a hobby like this because I think burnout is very common and I think very avoidable if you work to make sure you create healthy space for yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also think like.
[SPEAKER_01]: don't hold yourself to the standard of, you know, dimension 20 or critical role right out the gate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like tell the story that you're excited to tell and tell it with people that you trust and people that you're excited to spend a lot of time with because I think that, you know, story quests is basically my second family at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see them and I speak with them pretty much every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like someone's texting about something, you know, and we're talking about projects that we're prepping
[SPEAKER_01]: So know that you're signing up for, I'm sure you feel the same thing too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like know that you're reading up for a really long commitment and also success may not look like selling out Arena's success.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think needs to look like what is fulfilling for you creatively.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that if at the forefront of what you're doing, you are feeling fulfilled by the time you're spending telling a story with your friends, any other success that comes after that is just a bonus, but the core of what you're doing has to be its own reward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Through the time that we've been doing DNDark, we've over time hit bigger and bigger metrics, but separate from all that what I consider my biggest personal success was actually fairly early on within doing the show was hearing from one of the fans and listeners of the show that they were having a really terrible day and then a new episode came out and we helped turn it around.
[SPEAKER_00]: That alone to me is the single biggest success that we've had on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So finding the things that are important to you, regardless of metrics or analytics and things like that, is something I'm an enormous proponent of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it keeps you emotionally safe as well, because it's so easy to compare yourself to the big numbers you see online.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, it's like if you're creating something at your proud of,
[SPEAKER_01]: and that is almost a commemoration of relationships in the time in your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that has to be its own reward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you again so much for coming by to chat with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: This has been phenomenal.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've had some great things to share and I had an absolute blast.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me and I hope that I wish you many not 20s.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you let our listeners know for any projects that you're currently doing or any socials they can follow you on where they can find you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you can find me at my on a barren on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find me at B. E. My on on x, whatever they call it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find me at my on a barren on blue sky.
[SPEAKER_01]: Check out dispatch.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's a video game that I wrote on and I voiced a character in and I'm very proud of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And check out StoryQuest.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's StoryQuest Show on YouTube, we're in the middle of an arcane ascension campaign right now, which is a new TTRBG system from a fantasy author named Andrew Row, our final chapter drops this Friday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, check me out on those places.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it also tails and rolls, which is also on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of those links will be in the description.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thank you again one last time for coming by the chat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thank all of you for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: One more time, everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Danger Dangers, the GM and host of Dintark.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been chatting with me on a barren.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this has been Table Talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope you enjoyed what we brought to the table.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Table Talk, created hosted and edited by myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Danger Dan Jers, with artwork by Jordan Nelson.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our guest this episode was Myana Baran.
[SPEAKER_00]: Link's to a work can be found in the episode description.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in being a guest on the show, reach out to us at dndarkpodcast at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our theme song and outro was created by Jeremy Volucci.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out more of us works on Instagram at Jeremy Volucci underscore wreck of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening, then we'll see you next time we have a guest take a seat at the table.