[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, everybody.
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back to the Preacher-Wars podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the very first episode of 2026.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm on my phone on the streets of Nashville, Tennessee.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I actually flew out here to do an interview with a very special guest that I'll be announcing very soon.
[SPEAKER_04]: But today's guest, we have a sit here about to hear is with Marbest Bozinski.
[SPEAKER_04]: If that last name sounds familiar, it's because it's my own.
[SPEAKER_04]: and it's because the guest is actually my mom.
[SPEAKER_04]: My mom is an author who writes Christian fiction and she just re-released her first book, Plague of Lies, and into addition and sent me a copy, asked me to read it, and to do an interview and I said yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: so she's joining me on the show today.
[SPEAKER_04]: This book has been a really interesting one for me because there's so much that it's drawn from my mom and I's actual experiences and so it's a heavy book.
[SPEAKER_04]: The first time it was published in 2020 I couldn't finish reading it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was just hitting way too close to home.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now I have read the book and
[SPEAKER_04]: Was able to have a sit down conversation whether there's so much we could have talked about There's so much I wanted to talk about that we didn't get into there's so much that we did talk about it Expect to talk about it and so I hope you enjoyed this conversation It's a really really good one and be sure grab a copy of her book Plague of Lies is a link to it in the show notes at this episode if you're a fan of Christian fiction or if you're just wanting to You know start parsing apart some of what she talked about in relation to what you've heard me talk about in the show and her journey she's she's here
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so cold, I think my tongue just froze in the last sentence.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't help that I've had so much Nashville hot chicken and macaroni and cheese and barbecue that I can barely walk let alone talk in a coherent way.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am beat.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to get ready for this interview that I'm doing live here in Nashville, tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_04]: But for now, enjoy my conversation with Marbet Scrippsinski.
[SPEAKER_04]: My mom, the author, and today's guest, let's get into it.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, everybody, welcome back to the preacher boy's podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you want me to introduce mom, Marbeth, Mrs. Scorsonsky?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't when school you always said you have to call me Mrs. S. No, I didn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: You always said don't call me mom here young man.
[SPEAKER_07]: No, I'm not.
[SPEAKER_04]: This call me Mrs. Scorsonsky.
[SPEAKER_07]: There's a lie from the devil.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just kidding.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what?
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody.
[SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Kind of knows you by Osmosis, I guess, because they've heard from me for the last five years.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they've gotten some of the DNA.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess going back to
[SPEAKER_04]: the very beginning, or not the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if I'll go back to the beginning, people have heard some version of, I always tell people I was born into church.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of my unique angle is like, I didn't choose, and when I talk to Bethany Joylands, I talk to Sarah Ebenzen or I talk, and I'm like, talk about these groups.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do I get?
[SPEAKER_04]: I was sitting there and then I chose to go do this thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm always like, what's that like to choose where you are?
[SPEAKER_04]: So,
[SPEAKER_04]: for context for people, when you picked the church that I grew up in, what were you hoping for when you made that decision?
[SPEAKER_08]: First, I wanted a Christian school for my kids because I had a good experience with a Christian school.
[SPEAKER_08]: I had some learning issues in public school and the Christian school was mostly reading based and I'm a good reader, so I enjoyed my time there.
[SPEAKER_08]: My math skills were terrible, but I'd turns out of the learning disability when it comes to math.
[SPEAKER_08]: That I wanted a Christian school for my kids.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that was the first priority.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then when we attended the first time, it was very, very familiar.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was a lot like the conservative Baptist Church I grew up in and I'd had good experiences with that.
[SPEAKER_08]: As far as I knew, that's what church was supposed to be.
[SPEAKER_08]: My parents were ultra-alta-alta conservative to the point where sometimes the church was a little not conservative enough for them.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, but for me, I looked at our church as this is what I'm supposed to be doing, so that's why I chose it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So was it was the primary thing because like a big motivating factor was us.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like, oh, I have kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to put them in this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm curious, like,
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, I had a good experience in the Christian school, but like in terms of like the church experience was that like, oh, it just comes as a bundle with this like at that stage like how important was it to you like did you like that it was very conservative and it gave like that structure did it really not matter because that's one that was tied to the to the school like what came first chicken of the egg in terms of choosing like the church and school.
[SPEAKER_08]: school came first and then when we attended the church the first time we were there.
[SPEAKER_08]: the pastor was on vacation and it was the school's history teacher that was giving the sermon and it was terrible.
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I was going to say usually that's the way I got you as you go and the pastor's out of town and then how the guest speaker was great and then you attend like oh yeah it was it was pretty bad but the pastor's parents were there and they welcomed us and and they said you need to come back when our sons back in the pulpit.
[SPEAKER_07]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was a much better preacher.
[SPEAKER_08]: He was more of a hands-off pastor, and he kind of let other people who were like really eager for ministry positions of power to kind of take over the church, and that became the downfall for that first part that we were there.
[SPEAKER_08]: There was an attempt to close the school and hiring this new pastor very, very quickly was the teacher and the congregations attempt to keep the school open because at the time, we were going through a church political
[SPEAKER_08]: mess, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: Which I vaguely remember.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, almost this split.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it was really a between, we have to hire this guy right away or the decans are going to close down the school.
[SPEAKER_08]: closed down the church, sell off the property, split the proceeds to pay off whatever debt there was.
[SPEAKER_08]: And they were really looking to dissolve everything.
[SPEAKER_08]: And those of us who had fellowships and friendships at the church, we didn't want that.
[SPEAKER_08]: So we hired a guy very, very quickly and then, you know, he stayed for very long.
[SPEAKER_08]: We really expected him to last about five
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I vaguely remember that time frame and I don't like, I know we had a lot of meetings because I was in like third grade.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think or yeah third grade and I remember
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember like, there was just tons of meetings.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember whatever service it was where they, all the decons that they're gonna do something.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I remember Dad was in that committee or whatever, and then he stood up.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, that's not what we talked about.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember that that was super cool.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was very cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that I was cool.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I wish he'd done that more.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, I don't.
[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't mean to see it anymore.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I told Terre about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said, that's one of those things that like you see as a kid.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's kind of formative of how you view them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like one of those things where you're like, I don't even know what it was about.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just remember going like, oh, like that's kind of intense.
[SPEAKER_04]: and then also like, yeah, then later you're like, why'd you do that for that?
[SPEAKER_04]: And this thing later, but so obviously things kind of shifted and I think what's interesting because like the original past where I kind of have like a, I have a very glossy view of because I I wasn't thinking analytically about anything at that age.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was just, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: From your description, super hands off like on the like the nitty gritty of like, oh, I'm an being involved with everybody, but I'm going to be focused on like speaking and like the craft of preaching and then you have the replacement.
[SPEAKER_04]: is kind of the opposite where it's like hands in every thing and then preaching was kind of like an afterthought, at least it felt like when you tried to take notes and kind of try to be generous.
[SPEAKER_04]: I did.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what's funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'll say this now because this is what's funny about recording this.
[SPEAKER_04]: We tried to record this two days ago and it was a the bismal from me as a host.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's because there's so many things.
[SPEAKER_04]: that we've talked about already privately and so like it's weird almost.
[SPEAKER_04]: from a relationship level, I feel like I don't want to just like re-litigate a bunch of stuff because the show, but then I also don't want to not address things and then people go, why didn't you ask her about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why are you going soft on your mom, and soft on this story?
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's kind of funny, like what I just said, I think is funny because I think people have a perspective that I'm always like, let me slam everybody and dig up as much as I can.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like even with this, which I have a lot of thoughts about the pastor that took over
[SPEAKER_04]: I still don't want to be just like I want to make a dumb jab.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's like I still feel so some some days I feel differently but it's like you know it's kind of it was kind of an afterthought which is a really generous way to say like it was very awesome.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah it was very bad.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was very bad.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well here's the thing when when we started attending and I got love bumped by a lot of
[SPEAKER_08]: I agree to love the people on my church, okay, and I built some friendships and some of them were very, very fake and I didn't know it at the time until much later.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we're talking years later.
[SPEAKER_08]: I find the figured it out.
[SPEAKER_08]: This person is not a genuine.
[SPEAKER_08]: person.
[SPEAKER_08]: I need to stay away from this person.
[SPEAKER_08]: But has to make them really, really good close friends people that I absolutely loved and I wanted the best for the church.
[SPEAKER_08]: And for my kids going to the church and for my marriage, you know, I wanted what was the best.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I really believed we could have that there.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I was willing to stay longer than way longer than I should have in order to try to create a better environment and the best possible outcome.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, I wanted my kids to get the best education.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I wanted it to be the best school, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: And I was there the first six months we had the new pastor come in.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: But there were some rough corners, and we were just all learning how to adjust with one another.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Then the following year, it was awful.
[SPEAKER_08]: And people don't know this.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was, there was screaming at the teachers' meetings.
[SPEAKER_08]: We were called lazy.
[SPEAKER_08]: We were accused of not wanting you to give 100 and 10%.
[SPEAKER_08]: We were also being required to be at the church almost seven days a week.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, we were seven days a week.
[SPEAKER_08]: We had a choice.
[SPEAKER_08]: We'd go on visitation on Tuesday nights or Saturday mornings.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I just felt like, okay, when are we as a staff supposed to spend time with our families?
[SPEAKER_08]: relax, rest.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, there was no time for any of that.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that was the hardest part for me.
[SPEAKER_08]: And after the first six months, I told your dad, I don't want to be here.
[SPEAKER_08]: I want to quit.
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't want to teach anymore in your dad's like, look, we just got a house, you know, that was all done within the church.
[SPEAKER_08]: We were able to get a home of our own.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that was something I'd been wanting for
[SPEAKER_08]: they said we just got a house you can't quit.
[SPEAKER_08]: Plus this way you get to spend time with the kids, you know, we were the fortunate ones because our kids were right there on the campus and so we could see you guys throughout the day, every day.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then the next year was just awful.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we're talking full on, spiritual, emotional abuse happening.
[SPEAKER_08]: lot of bad stuff happening.
[SPEAKER_08]: And when that year was over, I told your dad, okay, that's it.
[SPEAKER_08]: I quit.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm done.
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't want to be part of this anymore.
[SPEAKER_08]: I said, I will get another job from, you know, somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_08]: And your dad said, well, I was just made administrator.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I need you there to be a teacher.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I wasn't allowed to quit.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I don't think people understand that churches like this tend to be extremely controlling to the point where you don't feel like you can walk away.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, I would I would lose my husband.
[SPEAKER_08]: I would lose my children.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we're talking serious losses here.
[SPEAKER_08]: If I just said, that's it.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm done.
[SPEAKER_08]: I quit.
[SPEAKER_08]: That would be me telling my husband, you know, I can't be a part of this ministry.
[SPEAKER_08]: You, you are.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it would have separated us.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, so it was, it was a big deal.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I ended up staying.
[SPEAKER_08]: a really, really, really long time.
[SPEAKER_08]: So overall, total, about 30 years.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Eight, you did that teaching.
[SPEAKER_04]: Being there, like, you were already burning out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, everybody, I think, was burning out as far as, like, you and a lot of people were burning out.
[SPEAKER_08]: Everybody was burning out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I loved it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't feel like I was burning out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then, you know, I've shared the story on the podcast before, but we had somebody that was relocated from another church and they came to ours, I googled the name, they had abused a girl at their prior church.
[SPEAKER_04]: I started going to leadership about it and, you know, he ended up being there like over a decade after I left.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and so that's kind of how that story evolved.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I am
[SPEAKER_04]: to get your perspective on that situation because people have heard mine.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think, again, everybody's experiences are owned.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so there's some things that you weren't privy to and some things that I was that you weren't.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what do you remember about that time frame and how did that further shade your view of the place beyond just being like, untired from being here?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what other layers did that bring out?
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'm going to bring up the tired thing again, because a long time ago, when I was a teenager, I saw a document, well, it's not a documentary.
[SPEAKER_08]: I saw a movie called Ticket to Heaven, and it was about the minis.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I told you to watch it, I think you did watch it.
[SPEAKER_08]: But it was so good, and so I'll profound to me that when I found it later on TV, I taped it, and I kept it, and I watched it again.
[SPEAKER_08]: But tickets to heaven was all about this kid who gets stuck.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, he's not kiddies, grown man.
[SPEAKER_08]: But he gets stuck in the mini-cult.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then he's kidnapped by his parents.
[SPEAKER_08]: What do you call this people who do program?
[SPEAKER_08]: Try to like, yes, he was kidnapped by a deeper grammar and deeper grammar from the call.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to log in one of the things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let her box so I can see if I watch it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I did.
[SPEAKER_08]: No good.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's such a good movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I did.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me let.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but one of the things that I talked about was how the cult kept them, they were on a vegetarian diet, but it was also a very low protein diet, and they kept them up all hours, they kept them exhausted.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I remember I kept referring back to that in my brain going, we are so tired, we are so exhausted all the time.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so our critical thinking skills were,
[SPEAKER_08]: very, very limited.
[SPEAKER_08]: And mine was all pushed into literature.
[SPEAKER_08]: I was teaching literature as teaching history.
[SPEAKER_08]: So, most of my critical thinking went to my job and then movies, you know, I mean, it didn't happen.
[SPEAKER_08]: My real life critical thinking was terrible.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it's embarrassing.
[SPEAKER_08]: But,
[SPEAKER_08]: When you approached me and gave me this information, I did what I was trained to do without critically thinking it through.
[SPEAKER_08]: I just automatically did what I was trained to do and I screwed up.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, now I can look back and go, wow, that was really stupid.
[SPEAKER_08]: I can't believe I did that.
[SPEAKER_08]: I should have picked up the phone and called 911 and had him arrested immediately.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's what I should have done.
[SPEAKER_08]: Instead, I took the information you gave me, I passed it on to your dad who was a deacon.
[SPEAKER_08]: He passed it on to the pastor who found a way to excuse.
[SPEAKER_08]: reasons why we should have him at our church.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like we need to take care of his wife.
[SPEAKER_08]: She wasn't, you know, it wasn't her fault that all this happened.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then even years later, you said, yeah, but she knew when he was when he walked in the door and I'm like, light bulb went off and I'm like, oh my goodness, you're right, right from the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_08]: They both should've been out of there.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then it was we need to take care of his kids.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's not their fault.
[SPEAKER_08]: They're already getting going through a lot when they realize what their dad did when they
[SPEAKER_08]: And so we kind of got stuck and even when I protested to other youth leaders that they needed to keep the sky out of the youth group, it wasn't taken very well and I was made to apologize for confronting them in the first place.
[SPEAKER_08]: Really, we were not so subtly told to shut up about it and assured that the decends and the pastor would be watching him and making sure that he didn't do anything inappropriate, which is just below me.
[SPEAKER_08]: But again, at the time,
[SPEAKER_08]: That's what we're going with.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's what we're learning.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's what we're being told.
[SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, we just kind of went with it.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it's so dumb now.
[SPEAKER_08]: Your dad and I were just talking about the last night.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he says, I look back on that.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, why in the world didn't I stand up and say, this man didn't belong in our church?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_08]: I said, we'll say, in reason I did, because we were trained to believe that the pastor knew better.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, even though I couldn't stand his sermon, I still, you know, he was brought to our church for a reason.
[SPEAKER_08]: So maybe he knows something I don't.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, he didn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I did watch ticket to heaven.
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember, I just want to make sure I wasn't confusing with another movie, but it's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Robert Joy's in it, and he's great in everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mike Foster, even a young Kim Katrau is in it as a, as a cool member.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I didn't even realize when I watched it.
[SPEAKER_08]: She's been, yeah, she's been Spielberg's first wife, I think, is in it too, or no, maybe it's not her.
[SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, she has like these light light blue eyes.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's my foster.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like foster.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: Which she's she's still good in it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like all the deep program, like faults is a great, deep programming movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, but
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I guess this kind of leads me like I don't want to go through too much vote play by play of a story people have heard but I am curious like I think people are probably People hearing from you for the first time probably also going okay and people ask me so I know people ask me all the time like hey you started this podcast, you know, and you know your your parents were still connected to this church and you know how did that
[SPEAKER_04]: how do they feel about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: And actually I just got asked that I was doing an interview for something recently and they were asking and I was like, big good question for them on some of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I do know when I started the podcast, there was a lot of like, like, reticents from you and dad about, you know, the impact it could have or what it would be.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know both of you separately kind of like voice
[SPEAKER_04]: don't do this or be careful or what was when you saw me just kind of go like I often do.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to go do this thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: What immediately went through your head and how has maybe your view of the show evolved over the last five years now?
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, first, we've always been a proud of you because you have been just an incredible, talented human being from Earth, I mean, whom we're kidding.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, you just awesome.
[SPEAKER_08]: But I mean, when you first started, we were all still, we were still trying to make things work.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it felt like,
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we were still trying to make make it right, but we were running up against worse and worse and worse behavior.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it wasn't just the one person who came in and was in the background constantly.
[SPEAKER_08]: He was constantly putting himself forward and it just drove me crazy because he was supposed to be not in certain ministries and I kept telling your dad, like he shouldn't be a song leader.
[SPEAKER_08]: that makes him a leader of the church.
[SPEAKER_08]: This is well, it's not really a leadership position.
[SPEAKER_08]: I said, it's in the title.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, come on.
[SPEAKER_08]: So it caused a lot of problems.
[SPEAKER_08]: Not you.
[SPEAKER_08]: Him.
[SPEAKER_08]: He caused a lot of problems in our in our marriage and in our family.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I did end up writing our pastor a very long
[SPEAKER_08]: email or text about it.
[SPEAKER_08]: So like, this has been going on for years and it has just driven wedges between our family members.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's like, what the world are we supposed to do?
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, your brother was working at the church.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it was like, and I had to be careful about, you know, I can't really say anything about this guy, but I don't want my grandkids around him, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: And it's like, maybe don't go to his house.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, it was just, it was ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_08]: remove them, you know, which is what needed to be done in the first place.
[SPEAKER_08]: But we were just trying to make things work and praying that he would just leave is what we were hoping.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then he bought a house, a really nice big house.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, well, crap, you know, he's not going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it was right around the same time when I was just ready to leave.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, again, I was ready to leave every year.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, but when you started the podcast, there were two other teachers, husband and wife, who were really, really creepy one day.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it just, your dad and I were just looking at like, what in the world is wrong with you?
[SPEAKER_08]: But they, we were, he was walking out to my car after my classes wherever.
[SPEAKER_08]: And they said, how are you doing?
[SPEAKER_08]: And I said, great, gone home, you know, oranges are in.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm gonna make some more, you know, it's like, I'm fine.
[SPEAKER_08]: Everything's great.
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, okay, we were just checking up on it and make sure everything's okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: And dad and I are just like, yeah, we're fine.
[SPEAKER_08]: What's your deal, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: And they were referring to you and we didn't even realize it at the time, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: They're like, oh, like, you know, you're son Eric, he's like, I'm like, yeah, so walked away from anything.
[SPEAKER_08]: Are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_08]: He's telling the truth.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's what you're upset about.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then there was when you released a video of naming names and saying he thought this church, he's still leading.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which I think was easier into the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: The man's wife went to your dad crying.
[SPEAKER_08]: And is this always going to follow us, you know, and everything?
[SPEAKER_08]: I didn't, I wasn't even at church that night, and he came home and he was mad because she had convinced him that this was ruining their lives, because you were saying all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm just looking at him like, what is wrong with?
[SPEAKER_08]: By that time I was done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I said, I, I said, I, I, I, I,
[SPEAKER_08]: You weren't wrong.
[SPEAKER_08]: He's like, well, don't you think he was wrong?
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, no.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then he called you and I was just like, I was in a respect that night because it was, he just kept going on this hamster wheel of saying the same thing over and over again.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, he wouldn't get off long and I've actually looked at what he was saying.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, it's not, you were not in the wrong.
[SPEAKER_08]: Her husband was in the wrong.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he never really did anything to make it right.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, this is not a man who said, you know, I apologize.
[SPEAKER_08]: I was wrong.
[SPEAKER_08]: I screwed up.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to come forward and confess to the church what I did and I'm going to remove myself from the situation where I'm around children all the time.
[SPEAKER_08]: You never did any of that.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I don't, I don't believe for a second of the heat.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's sorry for what he did.
[SPEAKER_08]: However, not long after they moved there,
[SPEAKER_08]: We had a revival, and he came to me in the nursery, and he told me he forgave me.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he was sobbing when he said this.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I remember looking at him and thinking, what?
[SPEAKER_08]: I didn't do anything to you.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's like, I'm...
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you don't belong here, but I didn't do anything to deserve forgiveness from you.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, I took, you know, not at all, that there was another lady standing there.
[SPEAKER_08]: She's just looking at us both.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm like, what?
[SPEAKER_08]: And the world is going in.
[SPEAKER_08]: She says, I know you've said things about me, but I forgive you.
[SPEAKER_08]: I know.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: No.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think you're the less, but yeah, that's, but that's how they work.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's how they react, you know, I forgive you.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to be the bigger man.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you're not a man.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and then you had already left, which I forgot to even mention, but you'd already left when the second situation happened at the score, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: You'd already...
[SPEAKER_04]: been gone.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, both of your dad and I were both gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_08]: No, how?
[SPEAKER_04]: And for people listening, I mean, I've shared about it before, but like, there was an actual arrest of someone who was on stuff at the school.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember like up until that, because I had been pushing for like, you guys should leave and also like, like, saying, like, something's going to happen at some point with somebody.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it was like,
[SPEAKER_04]: It was less than a year after you guys left, what's my opinion?
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was the following school year.
[SPEAKER_08]: We left after I left two years or a year before your dad did.
[SPEAKER_08]: I ended in 2020.
[SPEAKER_08]: Your dad stayed another year and then he left.
[SPEAKER_08]: And the whole time he was there that year, he was like, I shouldn't be here, I shouldn't be here.
[SPEAKER_08]: This is terrible, you know.
[SPEAKER_08]: But the man that was arrested, he was my replacement.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, everybody was saying like oh, he's breath fresh air.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's it's it's like such a Such a weird cliche situation where it's like always It's always like oh the person comes in everyone's like oh, he's the one who's gonna change things around here And he's he's great and he's so kind and friendly and you know You know people like it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like it just feels like it's the same story that plays out every single time Yeah, but yeah, I mean
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I guess since you guys went there and I'm not much to ask about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I guess all, I guess all I guess all I asked is, like, is there anything?
[SPEAKER_04]: What's it, okay, so obviously you know how I feel, because like I've always been fairly vocal about like what I think about things for better for worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, even when not about situations like that, like I think just.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I've always been a person's like asking a little bit more like when you go and then also making know how I feel like, which hasn't really changed that much.
[SPEAKER_08]: No, but you were always the questioner.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Always.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Has it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like obviously I'm pretty blunt on the show talking about background and I've now like I've been interviewed for different things and people ask me questions and I've been fairly blunt about my experiences like would you say a good percentage of stuff that I've talked about you're like oh yeah I remember that and that is not good or defy like more of it is
[SPEAKER_04]: So if I go all the time, so I talk to you and dad, it's almost I have to go, okay, you guys were in this service, and I was in this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what I was hearing.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what you were hearing.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's obviously bad things that were heard in both.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like, a lot of times you're going like, I didn't even know that that was a thing, or is it more often like, yeah, that's how much of a split is there between those?
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay, when we were in services, listening to the pastor talk that
[SPEAKER_08]: I found out later, much later, long after we left, that you were hearing things about women that weren't true.
[SPEAKER_08]: You were hearing things about mental health, that weren't true.
[SPEAKER_08]: And these were things that your dad and I did not agree with.
[SPEAKER_08]: And if we had known you were being taught those things, we would have said something.
[SPEAKER_08]: We would have skipped right past the youth pastor to the pastor at that point, because it was inappropriate.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, I, I take it personally.
[SPEAKER_08]: I do.
[SPEAKER_08]: I can't help but take it personally because some of the things that you and your brother have told me that you were taught seem to relate directly back to the fact that you had a mom that works.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: I worked for a living side by side with the man he was teaching you that women who work are telling the world that they're open to an affair.
[SPEAKER_08]: Did you hear that one?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: Your brother did.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's what your brother heard, um, that women who wear boots are looking for mail attention and validation, and I wore boots like seven months out of the year, you know, because they were comfortable.
[SPEAKER_04]: They never got the validation.
[SPEAKER_08]: They didn't smell.
[SPEAKER_04]: See, didn't get even better.
[SPEAKER_08]: They never got the validation, and you know, I, I dressed in so many layers, and those boots like kept me covered from need to toe and then long skirts.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_08]: There was nothing about the way I dressed that was looking for male validation.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, as far as I was able to.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, there's some aspects of my body that I can't help.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, they're just there.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, and then learning or being told that mental illness was really like demon influence when I was having issues with depression.
[SPEAKER_08]: feminism was, you know, anti-man, anti-God and obviously I believe that women should have the right to make as much money as a man for the same amount of work that they do.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, I was being paid very, very fraction of what the men were being paid.
[SPEAKER_08]: And through Dan I talked about that last night too, because a lot of the stuff came up.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I said, you know, it's not fair.
[SPEAKER_08]: not just then when I was being paid a fraction of what they were making for doing the work that was
[SPEAKER_08]: focused on school because that's my job, my job is teaching, so I focused my work on learning things to teach in the classroom and preparing lesson plans and everything.
[SPEAKER_08]: The guys were being paid as teachers, but they were also being expected to move furniture, you know, haul trash, and that's what they were being paid more for.
[SPEAKER_08]: So it wasn't, they weren't even being paid more for the job that they were being given.
[SPEAKER_08]: They're being paid more to do all these little extra chores,
[SPEAKER_08]: I asked them one year, you know, how did you have some preparation go and they just laughed and said, we have not brought up.
[SPEAKER_08]: Do you get me?
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, I can't imagine staying from the classroom without prepping, you know, and, but the long run, it wasn't just the slap in the face at the time, it was the long run.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, many I earn, part of that goes to Social Security for my retirement.
[SPEAKER_08]: So if I don't earn the same, you know, the amount of money that the men did, I get less retirement fund.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I said, that's, it's so unfair all the way around.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so yeah, it was, it was a very sexist place to work.
[SPEAKER_08]: But again, everything about the way the system is set up was to, you know, exalt the men and women or just put that down and shut up and do the work.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that wasn't it.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I was just thinking, have you seen the this side thing?
[SPEAKER_04]: Have you seen the Jordan Peterson thing on make up in that workplace?
[SPEAKER_08]: No.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: But I don't really watch anything by Jordan Peterson.
[SPEAKER_04]: Me either.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So far as like a form of self torture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on, no makeup in the workplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why should you wear makeup in the workplace?
[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that sexually provocative?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it then?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the purpose of makeup?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you make your lips red?
[SPEAKER_00]: because they turn red during sexual arousal.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you put Rouge on your cheeks, same reason?
[SPEAKER_00]: How would high heels there to exaggerate sexual attractiveness?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what high heels do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm not saying that people shouldn't use sexual displays in the workplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that, but I am saying that that is what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on, no makeup in the workplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm about that.
[SPEAKER_08]: Wow, that is street out of light.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, here's a good one, here's a double down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my word.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did the hell do people think lipstick is for it?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's such a, that's such a dismal and idiotic criticism.
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea that lipstick and makeup has nothing to do with sexual attractiveness.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you believe that, you're an idiot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't mind restating that quite vociferously.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a place for that in the workplace?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's not a question that we've been able to debate intelligently.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Scott, why don't they help kids stuff?
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, if I walked into the classroom with no makeup on, they probably would have called an ambulance to come and take me to the hospital.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Because I don't have, I don't have, I don't have striking features.
[SPEAKER_08]: I have to draw them on.
[SPEAKER_08]: So, I have blonde eyelashes, blonde eyebrows.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then I'm very, very pale.
[SPEAKER_08]: I can't help it.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's just, you know, that's part of my life and let's'm swimming all summer.
[SPEAKER_08]: But I just, you know, there was a statement made by a family member one year when I was putting my makeup on and they said, good, because you look like a burn victim and I remember going, wow, that was harsh, but, you know, accurate.
[SPEAKER_08]: But it's just, you know, we were makeup to make ourselves look good.
[SPEAKER_08]: I know guys don't like to know this, but women typically dress for themselves and other women.
[SPEAKER_08]: Guys are like way down on the list.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, we dress so that other women will treat us with respect.
[SPEAKER_08]: Guys, it's a hit or miss thing.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, you could be the most gorgeous woman in the world, and the guys still don't respect you.
[SPEAKER_08]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I know we should talk about your book.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, can we?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, do you want to talk about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure, people will have tons of extra questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll be like, but what about this?
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'll let them comment that.
[SPEAKER_04]: OK.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the book itself.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the reason I want to ask all this stuff about background first is not just to go, let's talk about me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I say it because you're just less blurry.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to ask because when someone reads it, so I'll say full disclosure,
[SPEAKER_04]: 20 20.
[SPEAKER_08]: I released it the first time in 2020, but I started writing it way before that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's originally release in 2020.
[SPEAKER_04]: I started reading it when it was first released and then I stopped reading it because it was very everything was still very fresh and also like.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that we were still, I think we're like at this weird end, odd family dynamic of like you guys were still connected to the church and then I was turned with that and there was some tension there and so I was going like, you know, it was a weird book to read and it still is a weird book to read because so much feels familiar.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's really weird, but so much feels familiar and so much feels like I recognize some first hand experiences as like, you know, in their fictional form.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, someone who knows some of the story of your background or has heard things on a show might pick up the book and go, okay, this is all just a true story with names changed.
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
[SPEAKER_04]: give people some insight into a what the book's about, but then be like how much of it is based on real-life experience versus okay this is just a fictional book it's you know a fictional story like what's the kind of breakup there.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay the story is about a young man and his long-lost daughter okay young meaning he's in his 30s by the time the book starts.
[SPEAKER_08]: Let's see.
[SPEAKER_08]: For the girl who just turns 18, she gets a note from her dad inviting her to his home.
[SPEAKER_08]: She's never met him and she wants to know why he abandoned her when she was just an infant.
[SPEAKER_08]: So then she gets to meet him and he gets to tell her his side of the story about why they had to, they were split up.
[SPEAKER_08]: It wasn't his choice and there's a lot of legal stuff that happened that kept them away.
[SPEAKER_08]: But then he also gets a chance to tell her about how she came about the relationship between him and her mother.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that goes back into his teenage years when he was a rule follower, Gungho, Bible-believing Christian, going to a strong church, going to a Christian school, wanting to do everything right, and had a dynamic youth pastor who basically convinced all of the youth to create a pattern for their lives based on,
[SPEAKER_08]: his preferences, you know, like you don't date until you're 17, don't kiss until you're engaged, go off to Bible College, then get married.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, there's a lot of preferences that are couched in terms of, this is the biblical way to do things, you know, and we hear that a lot, you know, women are to dress a certain way because it's biblical, which it's not, you know,
[SPEAKER_08]: But in the story of Scott, we find out that his whole world kind of falls apart when his youth pastor is exposed for living a double life.
[SPEAKER_08]: All the things that he's said and done to create a moral community among the youth, he's been doing the exact opposite.
[SPEAKER_08]: He's actually been secretly
[SPEAKER_08]: Rooming, one of the members of the youth group.
[SPEAKER_08]: And when the church discovers it, they pack him up in a youth hall and send him and his wife and kids out of town.
[SPEAKER_08]: The youth group doesn't find out about this until weeks later when the girl tells her friends what had happened.
[SPEAKER_08]: That moment for Scott was
[SPEAKER_08]: Everything was called into question, why should I do anything that this man taught me when he was living a double life?
[SPEAKER_08]: And so he makes some decisions that aren't so good.
[SPEAKER_08]: He and his girlfriend end up getting pregnant because they don't know anything about birth control or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_08]: It just seemed like all the morality was off the table too.
[SPEAKER_08]: So then they're getting pregnant and then his parents give him some bad advice.
[SPEAKER_08]: Her parents give her bad advice and it's just kind of a mess and there's no strong guidance left anymore.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know?
[SPEAKER_08]: And so, he gets to tell her, but one of the things I like about Scott, one of the things that I find most important about that character, is despite the fact that he went through this garbage when he was 17 and 18 years old, he made a decision that he was going to live his life honestly, and that becomes his whole theme for his whole life.
[SPEAKER_08]: So when he first meets his wife, he tells her on the first time they really talk that he
[SPEAKER_08]: that he hopes to meet her again someday and that she will always be part of his life.
[SPEAKER_08]: when he goes to get a job at a church to be a youth director, he tells his pastor, look, I have a daughter that I had in high school, and when she's old enough, I want to have a relationship with her.
[SPEAKER_08]: I want to make sure I'm prepared for her.
[SPEAKER_08]: So his whole life, as you read the book, you realize he's been preparing a place for his daughter, the whole time, and she has no idea that he even cared about her.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I really, that's what I like the most about his trajectory
[SPEAKER_04]: So, so how much of this is based on real situations versus, like, how much is imagination?
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_06]: Real situations are real situations that I've been a part of.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought you'd go there so first how much is first hand where you could go like I personally saw this or this this represent somebody I know or this is a situation where like the names have been changed to protect you know
[SPEAKER_04]: was gonna be, it's all based on real things, you know, some things that I've seen and some things that have made headlines, but how much is like, first hand, like, if you could surprise me, I'm assuming that I know into the story.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: very little it's mostly what it's mostly practices I've seen that make it into the book that are real that I saw happen.
[SPEAKER_08]: Scott Stad uses the old advice from the 90s where if you're if you're child acts like an adult then they should live like an adult you know and it really ruins the trajectory of Scott's life.
[SPEAKER_08]: you know, just having to leave home at 17, get a job, get a second job, try and get an apartment, try to pay for, you know, prenatal care for his girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, all of that, there was a no reason for that.
[SPEAKER_08]: But that was one of the things that was being taught in our church youth group that if you are going to act like an adult, then you're going to be out of the youth group, and you're going to be living like an adult.
[SPEAKER_08]: So you're going to the adult services, and it
[SPEAKER_08]: It takes away any kind of guidance that these teens need.
[SPEAKER_08]: At the time they needed the most, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: And of course, the result is they leave, you know?
[SPEAKER_08]: The girlfriend does leave for sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Other things, we know what I've never seen but I've done a lot of reading on other people doing it was I have teenagers confessing their sin at church.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I never saw that and I'm so glad that I didn't see that because I think it's just tacky and it's not appropriate, but it did give me the chance to talk about why they were forced to apologize and to confess or sin, but the man who caused all the problems to begin with was not, you know, adults can get away with anything.
[SPEAKER_08]: And they can justify what they do, but the kids can't.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I did see a lot of that firsthand adults just justifying their bad behavior while simultaneously coming down on kids who are acting like normal teenagers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was interesting for you in the book because that was one of the piece of advice where I was like,
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, it's kind of true, like if you're going to act like an adult, you know, there's and I think I hear that in terms of there's consequences and you face them, you know, that's part of like growing older, but also like you alluded to, part of being a teenager, that I that I don't think you're allowed to.
[SPEAKER_04]: experience when you're in some of these environments is that like part of being a teenager is trying to be an adult before you're ready to be an adult.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's almost like, it's almost like you're supposed to have a safety net to go like, well, I'm going to stand on this thing, you know, or I'm going to do this thing because like I'm testing the waters of what it means to be an adult.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like there's a there's a there's a weird
[SPEAKER_04]: But there's a weird inconsistency between how much respect you're given as an autonomous human being and also how much you're expected to act like an adult.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you're basically supposed to act with the maturity of an adult without any of the freedom to explore what that looks like.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's a really confusing thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's already confusing me in teenager.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not a regulatory statement.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's even more confusing when you have the harshest consequences if you get a little bit wrong, but also you're expected to have all the answers.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's a really weird thing to try to live in.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a kind of growing a box, kind of.
[SPEAKER_08]: Our church had expectations for teenagers that were really out of line, but we didn't see that until we left.
[SPEAKER_08]: And a lot of it was work related.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, they just worked you guys to adapt.
[SPEAKER_08]: And they didn't care, if you were tired, they didn't care if you were hurting, they didn't care if you had school the next day.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, if those chairs needed to be moved, then dad'd burn it, you better get in there and move them.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, you serve war by moving those chairs.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the weirdest thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that, let's sorry to, sorry to go.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a good.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a weirdest thing that's been brought to me like after the fact was I was talking to Rachel Bernstein,
[SPEAKER_04]: I really get podcasts called something, I think it's in I want to say indoctrination podcast, but I feel like I'm wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: So see this was something I got brought up to you by.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rachel Bernstein, who does host the indoctrination podcast, and I could just put the name with confidence, but she, she had mentioned to me, like, did you do a lot of labor or young, and I was like, yeah, and then I was like, but I don't see us in negative because I was like, and I guess it's one of those things like,
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes I wrestle with, and again, I always go back to people, I think assume that I nitpick and I look for things to be mad about.
[SPEAKER_04]: But there's a lot of things that I could sit there and be like, yeah, they did this and this and this and this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, for example, the labor thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I truly, like, if you ask me now, even me sitting here being critical, like, I don't look at that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like,
[SPEAKER_04]: as an adult, would I expect what was expected of me as a kid in regards to that?
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: But as someone who grew up, I feel like the people are like, oh, I got beat when I was a kid, and I, you know, I would, I try to turn out fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I do look at that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think they got something right about some of that, which was like the instilling a strong work ethic, I think is incredibly valuable.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it was valuable for me because it's translated into a lot of things for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think also, I think what we were just talking about, there was a level of being one of the, especially, I think I feel differently about me and like sixth grade, like, you know, push you over.
[SPEAKER_04]: But even then, I think there was something valuable about like being one of the guys, you know, that like in getting to do some of these like grown-up things.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that the, the, the,
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's the part where I go like, yeah, you should let team guys be feel like men at times and like get to go out and go work and do these things.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're regardless of what I'm not saying like, I'll go be a blue-collar boy and get to build something, but also like just getting to hang out and right around with like adult male role models and learn how to work hard and sweat and call on to that tired.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I think that's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the issue for me was,
[SPEAKER_04]: It was one, a lot of people didn't have the same like no vocal of doing that for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was just like you were an able body and everybody else is 70 years old.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I could look at it objectively and say like, they weren't going like, I could mentor this young man in many of these situations.
[SPEAKER_04]: There were some that did and whatever, if there's nuance and all that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the big issue for me was there wasn't a,
[SPEAKER_04]: In that environment, it wasn't like, oh, you have a desire for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're gonna push you to work hard on this thing and get better.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I remember very vividly, it was things like,
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like, okay, well, I'm going to I'm volunteering on the bus route and then the van and then doing lawn mowing and then going on knocking doors and then doing this and then it's like, I can't sing I don't want to do choir and then it's like, well, if you're not willing to give your all yeah, and so that's the part for me that's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: That's where I feel a little mixed because I, again, I talked to people who go like, you know, they had the labor as kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I, again, I understand all that, but I also go, like, I think some of that stuff was better for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was in a whole deeper conversation about education, but it's like, there's things about that that I think are great.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think sometimes that gets lost
[SPEAKER_04]: like in the frame of other bad things that we're happening.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like it's what's so frustrating is I'm like, there's so many things that work good.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like the community thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's so many things that are great about having a tight-knit community.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not a great having a tight-knit community where you can't ask questions or it's great getting to work alongside your spouse at something.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not great when you don't have a choice of when to leave or when it follows you, like, you know,
[SPEAKER_08]: There's a difference between bringing someone along and teaching them as they work, right, and taking advantage of something.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then also saying, there's a way for our own.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm going to go leave.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like that there is a difference there.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I you know, yeah, we spent a lot of we spent a lot of on the nighters at the school.
[SPEAKER_08]: You and I both did, your brother did.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we all, the whole family spent all night years at the school.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I know people are probably like, what in the world are you doing without your book?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it was like, it was crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, should we have had to do that?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm like, no, but it's, you know, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I also take it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a weird thing because like, the show would not exist.
[SPEAKER_04]: with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, and that's what's so hard is like, I, I, let us so funny.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, you know, your dad, because we have this conversation just last night again, and he said, well, he says, it's embarrassing that we stayed as long as we did.
[SPEAKER_08]: He says, I regret staying as long as I did.
[SPEAKER_08]: He says, but he says, Eric has helped so many people with his podcast and your books of help people.
[SPEAKER_08]: So maybe, and then he started laughing so maybe it was a good thing that we ended up like, like, that's the worst part of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, if I hadn't done this, if you hadn't got a war, you couldn't write a really good book on PTSD, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, but it is a, it's a weird, it's just a weird thing like unpacking all that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think, but I think, I say all that to say one of the things I love
[SPEAKER_04]: It shows the cognitive dissonance of the characters in which, you know, they can recognize something that is actually not great to be happening.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the next breath go, like I think of in the book, like it's not great that there's this teen couple that got pregnant.
[SPEAKER_04]: Objectively, it's not helpful for either of them at that stage in their life, but then in the next breath, there's characters going, you know, Someone mentions this grooming situation with someone at the church, and then they're going, why hurt it didn't go that far.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it's like, and that is a direct quote from what something I heard about the situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I've heard the same about a lot of that stuff is like,
[SPEAKER_04]: So for me, like, that's what it captures and it's exactly what I was just doing, which is, you know, well, there were some good things that happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: But ultimately, like, that's not to be confused with, like, oh, I think that justifies everything else.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's, it gets into that thing that, like, I think people who haven't been in these environments don't understand, which is like,
[SPEAKER_04]: comes from growing up in environments where people like would screen red face in the public and like stand up for what's right you stand in the gap and do the posters in the school like like burn in my brain of like what's popular is not always right what's right is not always popular and it's like
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and and and same thing like the work ethic is like I wouldn't be able to keep doing this podcast if I hadn't pull like I pulled all that ears for the show, you know, but it's It's like it's like now taking all the principles that work good but got misused and then real light them with something that is good and I think that's like you know and whether that's you with You know with writing whether that's what the podcast whether that's you know, I see people do this in all kinds of arenas
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's it's it's just such an interesting thing to be like you guys kind of built the thing that's now talking about you know, like kind of created this monster was like, I don't need sleep.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't need to relax.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I'm I'm charged, but yeah, I trained you well to take them down.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm I am curious like this is a new edition.
[SPEAKER_04]: of the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you release this book in 2020.
[SPEAKER_04]: You've got a new edition, which I'll show again now, that is really a lot of this week.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was the reason for the new edition and what's changed in this?
[SPEAKER_04]: So if somebody's either read it in 2020 and goes like, I've already read it, I've got my copy, what's different.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if somebody hasn't picked it up yet, like, and they're just curious, like, okay, what can I expect?
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a new edition, obviously there's something here that's been
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, when I first published it, Grammar has never been my strong suit.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm a lit person, but not a grammar person.
[SPEAKER_08]: They're very math-related.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I just never really got good at grammar.
[SPEAKER_08]: I've gotten much better since I started.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think they're math-related at all.
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[SPEAKER_08]: You don't have problems with, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't think...
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_08]: See, for me, math and grammar are very, very close.
[SPEAKER_08]: You're not so much at all.
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't think so at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: I kind of feel like grammar, I kind of feel like Stephen King's take on Grammar's kind of is like you just kind of get it or you don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I hired it, I couldn't, I couldn't diagram a sentence or something or do the mathematical side of it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Who does that in real life?
[SPEAKER_08]: Maybe that's why I think it's a lot like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel like that makes it more convenient.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think when I say like you, they're having to be done, I think it's just like, this sounds right or it doesn't, you know, like it flows or it doesn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to send you a copy of the elements of style by E.B.
[SPEAKER_04]: White so you can take your time.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, thank you.
[SPEAKER_08]: I've already read it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Your grammar course.
[SPEAKER_08]: And you read it.
[SPEAKER_08]: I read quite a few grammar books and the whole time I'm just, I'm hearing deep, deep, deep good evening in the background.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, now I had some,
[SPEAKER_08]: I had some issues with grammar.
[SPEAKER_08]: I knew that going in, but I wrote the best that I could.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then I knew I needed a good editor to kind of find my grammatical errors and fix them.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I went to a local former newspaper editor, thinking that was the same thing.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I hired him.
[SPEAKER_08]: I paid money.
[SPEAKER_08]: Got him to read the book.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he loved it.
[SPEAKER_08]: He says, I'm so glad that this kind of thing happened.
[SPEAKER_08]: And this one didn't.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, yay, you know.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I just kind of took his editing as being done, you know, I just followed his suggestions and then I published it and then realized it was really not good.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I hired another editor and she went through and she helped correct a lot of those mistakes, but a lot still got through.
[SPEAKER_08]: So this one.
[SPEAKER_08]: I basically, now that I know more about grammar than I ever have before, I typed out the entire book over again, fixing all the grammar as I went, I sent it right back to my editor that I trust.
[SPEAKER_08]: She went through found errors and then we just kind of...
[SPEAKER_08]: sent it off to beta readers.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, this thing has polished, you know, except for I misspelled Wednesday Adams and thankfully one of my beta readers found that and let me know.
[SPEAKER_08]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_08]: I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_08]: I started watching Wednesday today.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, I was putting my makeup on and she makes the remark of and you misspelled my name.
[SPEAKER_08]: You're going to talk about me at least spell my name right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I think all of your mistakes that I saw, which I saw, I think it was
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, that's what I did.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, I talked a lot about pop culture because pop culture is important to me.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, it was one of my little ways of rebelling while I was teaching and going to the church because a lot of people were very anti pop culture and my philosophy is all pop culture ends up becoming, you know, that's wrong.
[SPEAKER_08]: All classics at one time were pop culture.
[SPEAKER_08]: So get over it, just enjoy where you live at the time, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_08]: But that was one of the big things I wanted to fix all the grammatical errors, but also I've written nine other books since this so this is the first in a series of what will be nine books it by the end of the year this one and I wanted to tighten up the timelines and some of the
[SPEAKER_08]: Storylines.
[SPEAKER_08]: I wanted to just kind of tighten those up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_08]: I wanted to pull back a little bit where I didn't feel as strongly about some things as I do now.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I wanted to increase the tension in other areas.
[SPEAKER_08]: So it was enough to make Amazon say, OK, there are some serious changes that were made.
[SPEAKER_08]: So we're going to let you republish this and if you have a
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, digital version of the book, you can get a free upgrade to the new, new version.
[SPEAKER_08]: You just get an email that allows you to do that.
[SPEAKER_08]: So they have, you know, everybody's records on that, but yeah, I think it's totally worth a buy.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think it's worth a second look if you've read it before to reread it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, you get to see the characters that are introduced in the first book, 10 to pop up
[SPEAKER_08]: friends in the youth group, she is in almost every other book and she finally got her her own book book seven, I think it is, where she and her husband go back to the church that was in this book to fix it.
[SPEAKER_08]: They get a chance to go back and fix what was wrong and make changes and they they
[SPEAKER_08]: Denise, yeah, D-9.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is there anything wrong?
[SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a...
[SPEAKER_07]: The clean.
[SPEAKER_04]: The clean.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I got to ask the last question here, I ask everybody that writes books now because I know it takes a long time and there's the thing that you have to like, you have the thing that you put on the back of the book, you've got the main headings and all the things you're like, this is what the books about.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what's something that you snuck in somewhere that nobody would really notice, unless you, they were really reading diligently, or if, whether it's a theme or reference, something that you hope people, like if they did notice this thing, you would make your, make your day.
[SPEAKER_08]: You, is it terrible to say the pop culture references?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they're all, make him miss him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Give a favor of what he's slipped in.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, yeah, and it has, there's no, it doesn't really have any bearing on the book is just my little he-he moment.
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, I have all of the TV shows, movies, and books, I give the actual titles of those, but when it comes to music and bands, I make those up, and I do that so that I can write
[SPEAKER_08]: So I'll assign a band, a name, and then I'll write lyrics for that band.
[SPEAKER_08]: That makes sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, and this is for all the drannies out there, but there is a drand ran group in the book, and it's called RunRunner, because that's where they first got their start.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's a pop culture reference that's kind of the issue of dranny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the spellingers I found actually was you capitalized jaw and I don't know where you're trying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Were you channeling moon raker?
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to do a jaw's reference?
[SPEAKER_07]: No, not at all, not even close.
[SPEAKER_07]: Just for the visualization for a little bit.
[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah, how'd you like it?
[SPEAKER_07]: It's good.
[UNKNOWN]: It's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a lot of good references in there.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[SPEAKER_08]: Now, I do a lot of pop culture references.
[SPEAKER_08]: I can't help it because that's the kind of girly I am.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, I raised you.
[SPEAKER_08]: You do a lot of pop culture.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do a pop culture, girly.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, thanks for chatting.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was way better than the last attempt.
[SPEAKER_08]: really what it's way better.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm sure people have lots of questions so maybe we can reunite once we have a good.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the worst thing about this is like the first one is like there's so many things to grab onto.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if there's like a male bag or something of people with questions, that might be a good way to carry on.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could jump to many different things.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm releasing book two.
[SPEAKER_08]: in March.
[SPEAKER_08]: So if you want to have people ask questions and then we can just kind of carry on.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm back in March.
[SPEAKER_08]: That would be fine with me.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm okay with it.
[SPEAKER_08]: That one's about a plus-size teacher trying to find love at a Christian school.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my who gonna be influenced by not me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Any refound it?
[SPEAKER_08]: I already have a look before I got there.
[SPEAKER_08]: Thank God.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, first of all, he's the same work and they find the book as we close.
[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, Amazon.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's probably a good thing.
[SPEAKER_07]: Amazon, Amazon, Amazon, Amazon.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'll put a link in the show on this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're listening, go grab a copy of it.
[SPEAKER_08]: I would really like to sell some.
[SPEAKER_08]: Please.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, thanks for jumping on.
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's so much fun!
[SPEAKER_08]: Thank you!
[SPEAKER_04]: You've been listening to the Pre-Geoboyce podcast hosted by Eric Squizinski.
[SPEAKER_03]: The intro music, Bible Belt, was performed by Lou Rithley.