[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy Chat Podcast Episode 5-12 This is the Therapy Chat Podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_01]: I welcome back to therapy chat, I'm your host, Laura Rakein.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today's episode is not going to be the new year episode, there's been so much going on and I have not been able to put that together yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So look for that the week of January 19th, and this week I'm bringing you a new episode that I just recorded last week with my guest, Dr. Tracy Dalglish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, who goes by Dr. Tracy D, is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist, and sought after relationship expert.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's the creator of Big Connected Digital, where she teaches people all over the world how to have healthy relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's the author of you, your husband, and his mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: as well as her first book, I didn't sign up for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's the host of the top 100 parenting podcast, Dear Dr. Tracy.
[SPEAKER_01]: She owns a mental health clinic in Canada, where she lives in Ottawa with her husband and two children.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a fabulous conversation which I released this week because it fits so well with my recent interview with
[SPEAKER_01]: My friend, Dr. Sharon Martin, talking about Family Estrangement, as Sharon and I discussed in that conversation, Family Estrangement is not something that happens out of the blue.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a series of experiences and interactions which are not resolved, which leads people
[SPEAKER_01]: cut ties.
[SPEAKER_01]: So today we're gonna hear how some of those family dynamics can unfold.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tracy's book you, your husband and his mother, has amazing title and as soon as I heard it, I thought, oh my gosh, I can't wait to read this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's really about relationships beyond the mother and law.
[SPEAKER_01]: daughter-in-law relationship of a heteronormative couple.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's relevant to family relationships, extended family relationships, identifying where the boundaries need to be for each part of the group to feel safe, and this was a really rich conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can't wait for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: To hear it, before we get into it, I want to quickly let you know that there is still space in the retreat into loom for therapists.
[SPEAKER_01]: The mind body and soul healing retreat for therapists is in April 26, and we are finalizing our dates now for a second to loom retreat in November.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, look for those dates soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: The link to get the information about the retreat is in the show notes or just go to trauma therapistnetwork.com for information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also want to mention that I've been hearing from so many therapists about how grateful they are for the healing sexual trauma course.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I did with Academy Therapy Wisdom.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're saying that even though they may have been in the field for 20 years, and they know about trauma, the information that was shared in the course is new for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you don't have a strong sense of competency in working with survivors of sexual trauma, I encourage you to check out that course.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's
[SPEAKER_01]: pretty affordable and broken into modules in a way that I think makes it manageable even on the material is still likely to activate a lot within you, and we tried to make it very to include a lot of movement practices and prompts to help you with whatever it might bring up for yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be sure you knew about that resource and there's a link to that in the show notes as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's everything I wanted to mention to you for now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope wherever you are, you are surrounded by love and safety and you're holding the people who matter in your life close and keeping in mind that we're all connected and we all are important.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm grateful to you for listening to Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now let's get into my conversation with Dr. Tracy Dolglish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Laura Reagan and with me today is Dr. Tracy Dolglish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tracy, thank you so much for being my guest today on Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi Laura, thank you for having me here in your community.
[SPEAKER_01]: you're so welcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm really thrilled to talk to you and when I saw the title of your book, you your husband and his mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, yes, I want to talk to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish there had been a book by that title 30 years ago when I got married.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is one of the most common things I hear from women.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even just us saying that out loud as a marker, Laura, is us being able to say that we have stayed silent on a topic that has affected so many of us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we haven't been able to give voice to it because of all of the layers that play into the things that we're working on healing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been thinking about this interview a lot today before we started and I've been just kind of thinking about how the paradigm of, you know, this, like, competition between women that's created by the patriarchy really keeps us all from feeling
[SPEAKER_01]: the way that we deserve to feel as humans and thriving in our lives and relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's completely unnecessary.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really is.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's this piece here where, and that's something so many people ask is, why do, why is there this conflict between mother and law, and why didn't you write this book for a son and law?
[SPEAKER_02]: And truthfully, because both clinically and through research, research that's been done on in-law families, is that there's a higher rate of distress between mothers and law and daughters and law compared to mothers and law and son and law.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a tongue twister.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and then we start to ask, well, for what reasons, and we see that there is this tension that exists between these two women, and sometimes that tension is because of insecurities.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, a mother in law might be questioning her own role in the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe they're not having this conversation to talk about, what does it look like now?
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that you've chosen a part, now my son has chosen a partner, what does this look like?
[SPEAKER_02]: Insecurities within oneself, if a mother has defined herself and her identity throughout her life as being the sole provider, as being the person, and almost this belief that she's the only one who knows how to care for her child.
[SPEAKER_02]: That might be one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other one, there's all kinds of different layers in here, but the other one that really stands out is, because here's a woman looking at another woman who is doing something completely different.
[SPEAKER_02]: You, in your marriage, showed up differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: And especially women today, when we look at dividing the mental load differently, we are showing up at workplaces differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're even parenting and talking about our own self-awareness in a much different way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And whenever there's difference, we can either get curious about it and ask more questions or we shut down and we don't like it and that creates the tension there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it is really interesting, and I remember having this conversation with Dr. Alexander on her podcast, and she had immediately said, why is there this tension and she had said sexism?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because as a mother-in-law, I see this other woman doing something that I never got to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, there's so much packed in my own wife part of me from 30 years ago is like, I feel seen in the it's so interesting, Laura, because I have asked people countlessly throughout launching this book, writing it, doing all of the research years beforehand.
[SPEAKER_02]: and people would say, yes, I have a good relationship with my mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but then I asked a different question.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the different question was, did you and your partner ever have conflict because of your mother-in-law?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then 86% of people would say, yes.
[UNKNOWN]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though those people said we have a good relationship,
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's interesting because I think they're very much is this part inside of us that wants to protect this conversation, be a good girl, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm using quotations, a good girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: And isn't it interesting that when I have podcast interviews about my first book, which was on relationships in general, people never felt they had to qualify that conversation, or if someone's interviewing about,
[SPEAKER_02]: Parenting.
[SPEAKER_02]: People don't say, well, I have a good relationship with my child.
[SPEAKER_02]: So tell me what the problems are that parents are having today, that when I'm being interviewed for this topic, guess what people say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have a good relationship with my mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this one's not really going to apply to me, but Dr. Tracy, tell us why all these people have these books and so it's even this idea around buying this book and leaving it on your coffee table and people were asking me, well, what if my mother-in-law comes over?
[SPEAKER_02]: My challenge to that is what a beautiful opportunity to say to your mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to learn about our relationship and make sure we have a relationship that lasts a lifetime and here's a book that's going to help us to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you curious about what's in it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to talk about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: But we don't do that behind it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you are hitting me in the fields all over the place.
[SPEAKER_01]: So before we talk any more, let's let me give you an opportunity to tell our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do, because you have a lot going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an amazing thing to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am a psychologist and couples therapist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I trained at the University of Ottawa with Dr. Sue Johnson doing my PhD research in emotionally focused couples therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when I say that I was eating, breathing, sleeping couples, I truly was doing that every single day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just became really fascinated about how our most important relationship is one that can completely derail without us really understanding what's happening between two people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then throughout my clinical degree, of course, I went to our head of training and said, why only want to be a couple's therapist, and he said, as a psychologist, you can't do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to train as a generalist, and then you can specialize.
[SPEAKER_02]: with all kinds of presenting challenges and I offer supervision to other clinicians and then at the heart of my work which most people see online and in social media on my own podcasts that will be my couple's work that I do.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, what's in my heart.
[SPEAKER_02]: And truly what came of this work was in 2018.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was a mother, a new mother to two kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the depths of our Canadian winter, I felt so dissatisfied with the discourse around relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: And remember waking up at 4am, nursing my daughter, putting her back to bed, and then clicking post on my first Instagram post.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was the start of all of the things I've been doing online, which is podcasting, writing blogs, contributing to media places, and making what we know about relationships accessible,
[SPEAKER_02]: to people all over the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the repeated issues that shows up online, but also in my therapy room, it's one of the top conflicts with couples is in loss.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I continue to search for a book that would help the daughter-in-law in my office, but more so help the couple.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's really the last major resource that was written.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it didn't consider the new wave of access online, the information technology era that we were in, the parenting discourse, how much that has changed in the last even just 10 years.
[SPEAKER_02]: 20 years especially and and just all of this information wasn't included in that because of course many of these couples would come to me and some of those challenges would be about how things are shared online, how parenting looks different, how a mother-in-law might say
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, in my day, that's not what we did.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then husband, if we're talking about heterosexual relationships, husband would just freeze and then go home later and say it was wife.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a big deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just mom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just let it go.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just wasn't a resource specific to help couples do this work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So writing my first book and then writing this one and just making these tools and skills accessible for people so they could have good relationships at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what an amazing resource you've created and and you are an amazing resource yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I honestly, I really do wish this all had been available when I was a young, young wife and a young parent because I needed it and I didn't, you know, I didn't know how to handle the family dynamics that arose when we combined our families and I really wanted to be part of my husband's family because
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that my family was very screwed up, but his family was very perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to be part of this really perfect family, but, you know, when it first I was accepted, but when I was comfortable and being myself,
[SPEAKER_01]: I started to become a lot of conflict and it was really confusing for me to know how to navigate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I had found a book called Toxic In Was, and I know from experience because when I was trying to work on my relationship with my own mom,
[SPEAKER_02]: Before I was at Therapist, I found a book called Something About Toxic Parents or Something about the author actually wrote Toxic Parents first Okay, the first edition was 1988, which is interesting Laura because I mean, did we use the word in therapy toxic?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, toxic was not.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a word we use so that was so what an interesting book though, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So toxic parents and then she wrote Toxic in laws.
[SPEAKER_02]: afterwards.
[SPEAKER_01]: They probably was.
[SPEAKER_01]: It must have been the same author.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just remember being like, well, if my mom's toxic, yuck, and nothing I can do about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want anything to do with someone who's toxic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, that I think maybe you were beginning to allude to this even when we first started talking that, you know, the way that, you know, if you look at, like my mother-in-law's a narcissist,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not much you can do with that, but if you're trying to figure out how you and your partner can work together to have a healthy relationship and a healthy relationship with your
[SPEAKER_01]: person, you know, not necessarily dominant, but like a very big presence in family dynamics.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had people come to me throughout launching this book into the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was really interesting when I announced the title on social media.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is part of the pre-order of launching the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: I announced the cover.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it was so interesting to see that about it was at double.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there were 4,000 likes in the post and 13,000 shares, which was pretty big for us, which just tells me how many people can relate to this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time,
[SPEAKER_02]: I can say with certainty that a hundred percent of the women I have worked with have come to me, not saying I want to get rid of my mother-in-law, I'm going to go bang on her door with a torch and burn it down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody has said that to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every daughter-in-law has come to me saying, I want to make this work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really struggling.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our marriage is struggling and we don't know how to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is so important in this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: The conversation around family dynamics, legacy patterns, if we want to use the word toxic, the dynamics that are there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what this book is about, is being able to find the pathway forward, not so that you have to keep abandoning yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so that you have, and I call it my vault system.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can talk a little bit about what that means.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I created this system so that you at home could put all of these steps into place as if you're in my therapy room, step by step.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're stronger and by the end of it, you have a plan moving forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that plan will look different for everybody, but it's about creating it for you and your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And before that, the first part of the book, I first talk about the six types of mothers in law.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I've also in chapter two, which is something Laura that I know so many people can resonate with with your story, is this desire of wanting the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the confusion of, is it me?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there something about me like what happened?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remind daughters of law that you stepped into a family legacy that existed long before you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that I think can be so freeing for people to understand that you didn't cause these problems.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were the first one to name them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what often happens is your husband gets pulled back into that, that matrix or the swamp or whatever that is, the family dinning.
[SPEAKER_02]: More text, the vortex is a great image, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you know, your partner there, you're saying, okay, I mean, just just tell your mom that she's welcome to come over, but she can't come over unannounced when I'm home and I'm feeding the baby and like, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: airing out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, well, no, it's just mom, just let her in.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that big of a deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to upset her and write there.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's back in the vortex into his own stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is the triangle that I highlight in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the triangle becomes
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do we get stuck in triangles?
[SPEAKER_02]: We get stuck in triangles because there's a conflict between two people that can't resolve it and so we bring in the third person to alleviate that conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so often that triangle is between the title suggests, wife has been in his mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so many things you're saying are just so resonant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm seeing the dining room and everyone sitting in there, I swear, as we're talking,
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, in chapter two, Laura, I talk about the 10 comment.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, no book can cover everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's 10 really common toxic family dynamics that show up.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I talk about things like the triangulation, printification, codependency, those key pieces that show up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I told you I haven't had a chance to read your book yet and hold it up again, but I am going to definitely be sure to read it because I have been wishing for a book that teaches people about family dynamics.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, people don't really understand that all families don't operate the same way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, I was telling you before we started recording, I
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say that I have a great relationship with my mother in law now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think, you know, we got along at first because we had a lot of things in common.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that in terms of like our values and our interests and even kind of being outspoken women in some ways,
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also realized, as I said to you, when I look back now and I'm not parenting little kids and I'm not so overwhelmed with family stuff, I realized it was a cultural, it was a total clash of culture and like when you said,
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a change in how people respond to that change.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes so much sense to me because this was a family that was very, this is the way we do things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody just follows that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I came in like, why?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when people were like, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the siblings also reacted to that, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: That the whole system reacts, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's almost in a lot of times too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like I remember this one couple gave me this beautiful imagery and they viewed each other as like two stones of the beach.
[SPEAKER_02]: and they were continuing to bump up against each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that over the time of being together every day, every wave coming in, they would smooth each other out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like rough edges becoming smooth, togetherness was such a beautiful image.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is this that happens in families.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now the piece, though, that we lose is first the ability to tolerate that discomfort.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not talking about abuse, like that's a different conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: but the ability to work through ruptures.
[SPEAKER_02]: The ability to own things to repair and if those things aren't happening, then the next step would be how we set boundaries and then how we choose to show up and how we shift and evolve.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, all of that process is about tolerating the uncomfortable and the unknown.
[SPEAKER_02]: and a lot of the hard stuff right now is we don't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, there's so much complexity when you're speaking about family legacy and intergenerational patterns of behavior and dynamics and
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just how we do things, and if you are suggesting that the way we do things isn't right, then I may have to question the way my parents did things, and that feels disloyal and disloyalty is like worse than death in some families, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're disloyal, then I'll cut you off, and that's so painful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say to that I'm a mother and I'm a, it sounds like your kids are pretty young, but I'm a, a future mother in law too, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most likely, or I have, you know, my children's partners, I have a role that's like a mother in life, and if they don't end up formally marrying, and just like, you mentioned the estrangement conversation that I did a few weeks ago, and this week's episode of the podcast, just as I don't want to, I
[SPEAKER_01]: have a dysfunctional relationship with my mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be in a dysfunctional relationship with a future daughter-in-law or son-in-law or any gender as in my role.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, as a mom now, when I look at the generation after me, it's, I'm sure it's similar for our parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: People do things very differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's how much can we tolerate, like, I could do things my way, but you could do things your way and both ways could be okay versus one person's way is right and one person's way is wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember then, you know, this is a story I was thinking about recently around my own family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And after I had my son, so I live six hours away from my family and my husband's family doesn't live in our town in our city.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember after having my son, I kept having this conflict with my family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it came out that there was this expectation around visits
[SPEAKER_02]: visit them
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember having to have a really hard conversation and saying, that's not how it's going to be for us as a family.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not what's possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was really hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was this, when I think about the bumping up against each other, a lot of what happens in families is these unspoken expectations and desires, and then the inability to then co-create.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that can come from both sides, I think, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's not just, we can point fingers and say, oh, yes, right, because, you know, the older generation, they're so stubborn and rigid and all the things.
[SPEAKER_02]: We could say that, yes, but at the same time, that comes back to us as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I remember for myself, then having to kind of sit through this discomfort of, if I'm not pleasing my parents in doing what they want, what does it mean for me as a daughter?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it mean for me as a one day parent?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's really hard work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also, how do I remain close to my family, knowing that I'm letting them down in this?
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're then having to renavigate the definition of family and time together, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that requires, so the chapter three in the book is, oh gosh, I can't remember how I labeled it, but it's this idea we show up in relationships with our own suitcase, and we have to look through that suitcase of our own stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that also shows up with our in-laws, with our mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_02]: What did we hope she would be?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we keep hoping she would show up?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then how do we navigate that grief that can show up with who that person is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Addressing our baggage.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's titled.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard from so many people that they love this chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the chapter two.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's chapter three.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the hardest chapter to write in the book because it really is our own essence of what we bring.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not just us as daughters and locks.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would hope that there has been or other partner could read the book as well and see what's in that chapter because they bring their stuff in there too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I highlight 10 inner child wounds that show up for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just think once we can see those of what guides us, that can be really powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we can, you know, see, oh, hey, huh, I keep trying to play the piecekeeper.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is something from my own family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And actually, it's not my job to keep the peace in their family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't have to keep self-sacrificing and abandoning all of my own wishes and desires.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't have a voice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't have boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have to unpack a little bit about what you were just saying again because this is just so resonant for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you said about the unspoken expectations, the how often you visit thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, obviously in our culture, people use to live close together and now people live, they go where the jobs are, they go where the partner is or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess maybe like in the early 1900s people would have just moved away and that would be it and you might get a letter like once a year or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, travel wasn't like it is and they have planes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that whole idea of I'm mad at you because you don't visit often enough is saying I want to see you more I'm mad at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see you more I'm mad at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mad at you and then you come and it's like you're not staying long enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mad at you and it's like I don't want to be here if you're mad at me when I'm here because I didn't stay as long as you wanted me to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to see you but I don't want to be sitting here feeling like the whole time you're disappointed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, you know, and I only get to, you know, thinking of the clients that work with, I only get two weeks of holidays and then I've taken this PTO time and then I'm with you and then you've just been this grump the whole time and now I've lost my time and I go back home and my kids and I are all just regulated and stressed, why would I want to do that again?
[SPEAKER_01]: I imagine the money you spend to travel a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Laura, I think that's where what I was noticing too as I was launching this book and exploring conversations online and on Reddit, it's a lot of people go to this all or nothing place.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are all either happy and together and we're all in agreement or I have to cut them off.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would I would read stories from people who were saying, you know, my in-laws show up on announced we've told them not to should I cut them off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what don't answer the door, just in there, in the show in other places.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, it's that I don't want to tolerate discomfort.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the discomfort is, your mother-in-law shows up, you open the door and you hadn't agreed to it and you have to say,
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not available right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can't let you in.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll text you later and we'll find a time that works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Close the door and lock it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whew.
[SPEAKER_02]: My clients, when we work through boundaries, boundaries and for people listening, boundaries are not about the requests.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you talk about what they're doing, that is a request.
[SPEAKER_02]: A boundary is what I am or I'm not willing to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I have to have an action that follows up with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not willing to have unplanned visits.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so my follow up action is that when you show up an announced, I'm not going to answer the door.
[SPEAKER_02]: And whenever I work through this with clients, it is so uncomfortable, of course it is, and it will be the first second or third time.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you'll get the message, you are not opening
[SPEAKER_02]: mother and law would go into the martyr victim space and everything is wrong on the phone and they learned that they would end the phone call.
[SPEAKER_02]: They said, oh, okay, mom, you know, you know, I, yet I hear your struggling.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to end the call now.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is one of those moments where we've agreed that when you go into this mode, we're going to end the call.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love you.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll call you next week.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was the way they saved their connection with mom, mother and law by not having to get
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's uncomfortable, but then she tells the sister and then the sister calls you and says, How could you do that to mom?
[SPEAKER_01]: You hung up on her, right there?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're getting pulled into the vortex, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there is the triangle, mom, sister, and you and your husband are you and your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is tricky because then siblings get involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had lots of people asking, why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where's the sister in law book?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I say to people, whether it's your mom, your father in law, your sister in law, or your mother in law, the vaults method in my book will help you walk through steps to help you navigate this partnership, this relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's what you have to understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't keep getting pulled into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the reality, the really hard truth, is you don't get to control what they do with that information.
[SPEAKER_02]: but you do get to control what happens in your house.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why the book is written for couples to be a strong united front.
[SPEAKER_02]: The vault is all about the sound structure that unless you're sound and you're solid.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't let people in like you you have to protect your marriage because what's happening for so many people is it's like you're in laws or in your bed or your sister in law is in your bed your mother in law sitting in the corner of your bedroom and it's hurting marriages and it's not
[SPEAKER_02]: And Laura, we didn't start the conversation this way, but I think this is where I've started so many conversations around this topic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying to people abandon your mother, find a way to cut out your mother and law.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're finding ways to build a strong marriage so that you can remain connected with extended family members.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, I just feel...
[SPEAKER_01]: very hopeful with what you're doing with this book specifically because, yeah, it's, I have my own family of origin, trauma, my partner has his, both of them are there in our,
[SPEAKER_01]: relationship as if our families are in bed with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, when you say, okay, when you start talking like that, that makes me uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you bring that up, I will end the call, and then they do it, and you say it, and then you hang up and you'd feel like,
[SPEAKER_01]: biggest a-hole in the world because she was crying and she didn't want to say goodbye and you hung up and
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you feel like you're abandoning her and then it's like, that's not my role.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm the child in this dynamic, not the parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not supposed to be parenting my parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and the.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to give you the silent treatment for.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's even more.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you did do something wrong in your own like structure of the what being a good girl, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I tell you, people, it's not just me but my clients and I'm an individual therapist when people set boundaries with someone and then they're like sitting there like having to sit with that tension of oh my gosh, I know they are so mad at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: May are.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could tell yourself, oh, they're not what or, you know, but it's like, no, they aren't adding you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, my gosh, it's hard, maybe I think I'm a peacekeeper, I think that's probable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the family system though, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because of course, as children, we grew up with one survival mechanism, which is to remain connected to our caregivers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so dependent on what environment we grew up in, dependent on our personalities and our dispositions, depending on our caregiver's dispositions, the marriage that was in front of us, the relationships around us, the siblings, right, all of those pieces.
[SPEAKER_02]: We learn to do some really tricky gymnastics so that we could stay safe, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is sometimes putting your needs away.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is sometimes agreeing to something.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't get the guilt trip.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's some time, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And while when you then say I'm going to end the call now, I love you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you're in a hard spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what we've agreed on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to end the call and I look forward to talking to you next week.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will call you and I can't wait to speak to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, bye.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're breaking the cycle there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not, I think the thing we have to remember is it's not about keeping them happy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about honoring ourselves, and then creating the relationship that's going to work for you because otherwise when you don't do those hard things, then you get into resentment, anger, frustration, disgust, maybe, because you're like, how could they act this way?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that all there is the recipe to walk the road to cutting ties and a strange mint.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we know, we know that a strange mint doesn't happen just because you had one hard conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: A strange mint happens over years and years and times and trials and and that's not where you want to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it really is this reframing of could we look at the
[SPEAKER_01]: What you just said is so true, and we're all walking around here, replaying these patterns that we don't know where we're playing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love the idea of confronting our own baggage that we bring in because, you know, if I want my mother-in-law to love me and be the perfect mother that I didn't have, and then she rejects me because I'm being myself, and then the rest of the family piles on, then I'm gonna react just like I did when my mother wasn't the mother I needed,
[SPEAKER_01]: seeing her as a villain in some way and like she's the enemy, she's the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that's against her, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, there's probably five, ten different other ways that I could respond to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I loved what you said about when we're setting boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're saying what we will not do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we think,
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking it even when you were talking earlier in our conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking, I just want them to stop doing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not possible for me to make them stop doing something.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I can stop doing something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a part that when you're thinking about setting boundaries with people that you do want to be in relationship with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's just because of my own particular type of trauma history.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, it's like I have to take that because I want them in my life and I, and I already said no and they ignored it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's really confusing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so confusing and especially when we think of our early wiring where we didn't have autonomy or agency given to us in our childhood.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it
[SPEAKER_02]: When we focus outward, we are getting stuck in that external locus of control, believing that others need to change, and that can lead us to feel helpless, and to lead us to feel like we have a low sense of agency in our life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is where we get stuck.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this whole book, and conversation is really about giving people that scene at the table.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, I, I, I, I proposed that daughters and law get stuck in either the victim.
[SPEAKER_02]: So mother-in-law shows up on announce.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just fill it or in.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's the good girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: Got, right, the victim or the villain, the scapegoat, the bad one, the one that's causing all the problems.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Laura, how many times have we heard that story from our clients?
[SPEAKER_02]: My mother-in-law believes that I'm the bad one and I cause all these problems in their family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe when I was writing this book that I wanted to give women agency and autonomy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in order to do that, to get a seat at the table, besides your mother-in-law, besides your partner where you're connected with them, you had to shift the narrative from she's bad, she's doing all these things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why can't she?
[SPEAKER_02]: If only they, the family, did something different, we had to shift the story back into the internal locus of control, which gives us that sense of power, freedom, choice, that's a core need we all have.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then the question is, how do I want to show up?
[SPEAKER_02]: Knowing this now about myself and about my mother-in-law,
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I want to communicate this?
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I willing to share?
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I not willing to share?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do I want to do the next time she, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that right there, that is the healing that we want to do, whether we're talking about mother and law, trauma, whatever that looks like.
[SPEAKER_02]: It all comes back to our own autonomy and agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you and I do that with our clients every single day.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do it with couples at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's also something that I think outside of the therapy world, people aren't really aware of how much they're showing up in their lives, feeling like they have autonomy and agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially because I think, you know, to bring it back to sexism,
[SPEAKER_02]: play small be a good girl and that's right that was at least my year no uh what why i'm liking the last name she wrote on our best behavior at least oh i'm missing her last name with that one she was one of the leads for goop and then left and wrote this really great book and she even writes an entire chapter that i just loved about envy in it
[SPEAKER_02]: But she talks about how women are raised and socialized to be good, men are socialized to have power.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: And right there, so then, you know, I, the story that I do often hear is, mother-in-law and daughter-in-law had a good relationship at the start.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did they have a good relationship at the start?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because daughter-in-law was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was the good girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was obedient.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a power differential.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mother-in-law was still the head of the house, but then daughter-in-law has a baby.
[SPEAKER_02]: And guess what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Now she wants things to be different for herself and her family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're right back to where we started.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if you've noticed this before.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting to think how a mother-in-law treats her daughter versus her daughter-in-law.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's something I've talked about with other people as well, where with her daughter-in-law, she expects her to be the support of partner to her son, but she respects the boundaries of her daughter, but pushes the boundaries
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought that was a really interesting theme that I kept noticing throughout the clients that I was working with.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like if you think about the old relational structures of before the 21st century, before the mid-20th century, you know, the woman comes into the husband's family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's her family now, right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was just saying for the 20th century in the West.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's small and not seen, but she's also like, well, we're letting you live here now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, she's not, she's not a head of household.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of like one of the children in a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas in our modern culture and western culture, you know, the mother is oftentimes kind of leading what's happening within the family,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, there's only so many people that can be doing that in one big extended family.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they don't learn how to do it in a way that's not just keeping the peace, but really maybe collaborative.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're on this really interesting edge right now of family systems and that families are really struggling and it's it's difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it feels like a lot of things are shifting in the paradigm currently and much of it is needed chefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think although it's uncertain and unsettling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were kind of touching on that whole visitation, expectation, how it's so much different today, and it's interesting because one of the other conflicts.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, these are just like the, I often say about couples, couples come to me saying they're fighting about the dishes, or kids, or sex, or in laws, but what we know is the underneath stuff, the deeper longings and needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so important for that frost to look at.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I always love the stories that I get to hear from my clients.
[SPEAKER_02]: They fight over chicken, they fight over how to boil water, or with, you know, one couple was so great.
[SPEAKER_02]: They recognize that their last major fight was really about how angry they were.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just made sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: The expectations are also different because
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I even think about myself growing up, one of my grandmother's wasn't in the area, and so she might get one picture of me a year.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the expectation today is constant contact, updating on Instagram, updating on social media, and then you navigate boundaries about what are you sharing on social media, and who are you sharing that to?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you have this whole other layer
[SPEAKER_02]: that is part of the family structure that you have to address.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if there was one wish that I had for this book, it's that every couple gets it either when they get engaged.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, I mean, it's not the sexiest engagement gift.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're getting engaged or you're about to have a baby because it gives couples these questions to ask each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: Questions that even myself with my husband, we didn't have this list when we got married.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not know to ask these questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that really does make the implicit expectations explicit, so that you know, what did you see growing up?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you hope to embody now in this marriage navigating your family?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do we plan to do if your mom gets sick or needs help with the finances?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're not acting by the flying, by the sea of our hands.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead, we're having those intentional conversations and plans ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That seems like an amazing opportunity and resource for couples to swear our culture is like
[SPEAKER_01]: have a beautiful wedding, be beautiful on your wedding day.
[SPEAKER_01]: The rest, don't worry about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, it's like the industry, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The industry, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the industry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's not, now it's not just the wedding.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the baby or the second baby.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how glamorized it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of my work has centered around helping new parents
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody plans the nursery and they do hours of research over the best roller in the best car scene and then they talk about the birth plan and maybe they say who they want to visit them in the hospital after they deliver.
[SPEAKER_02]: But did they prepare their relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: And most people will say no and let's also normalize that 67, 67% of couples will struggle in the first year after having their child.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then by year three, that evolves even without intervention, the relationship improves by year three, but well, we do not prepare our relationships for these hard seasons and transitions.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we really don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're just illuminating so many different layers of things that are crucial to having healthy relationships and us growing as people too, like healing from the family of origin wounds that we have and what we're taking into this next experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see, can you just tell us maybe an overview of the vault method that people can get a little taste of it before they buy the book?
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always want wise consumers to make sure it's a good fit for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I created it step by step.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's five steps, and it's an acronym for Vault, and I intentionally did not start with boundaries in the system.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if we were to start with boundaries, and you go to your husband or your partner, and you say, you need to tell your mother not to arrive, XYZ, or you're not going to get anywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll meet your partner in defensiveness, and you'll spiral, and it's not going to help.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first step is values and we actually spend very little time talking about your mother-in-law in that chapter and that step.
[SPEAKER_02]: And instead we talk about what's really important to you, what matters?
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people know that family matters, but I want us to get really clear on what what are your priorities, what's important to you in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's all about step one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And values is such an interesting one because a lot of couples, when I ask them that, they don't know what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like an anchor.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I found with couples, is that their values would be aligned, but when it came to landing the plane.
[SPEAKER_02]: So going from the 35,000 foot view in the air, they would say, yes, family matters to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then, and I tell the story in the book that you then come to every Sunday night, and your husband wants to go to his mother's house for Nespresso and Petissaries, and you say, okay, but I'm sure we can skip one Sunday, and he says, no, we absolutely have to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I mean by when we're on the ground, we're not aligned.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that you, no, A stands for aspiration, step two is aspirations.
[SPEAKER_02]: What does this actually look like?
[SPEAKER_02]: In an aspirations, I teach about the nervous system because if your nervous system is offline, there's no way you're going to get into step three and four to set boundaries with your family.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to get a connected calm, regulated nervous system and then you're going to go through that list of aspirations.
[SPEAKER_02]: All of those questions are in step two.
[SPEAKER_02]: Step three is you understanding your triangle and this, I love this chapter because it's really about being able to map out what's happening between me and my partner and what happens between me and my mother and law, what happens between my mother and law and partner and so there's lots of different examples in there about how that triangle can look and how relationships are strengthened or weakened and how to actually get out of that triangle.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so easy to get pulled back
[SPEAKER_02]: Step 4.
[SPEAKER_02]: L. Limits and Boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this chapter because Laura, I haven't seen any other boundary book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk about how to help a couple get on the same page.
[SPEAKER_02]: One person wants this boundary, the other person doesn't see the point.
[SPEAKER_02]: One person says, why didn't you set the boundary?
[SPEAKER_02]: Your mother did the statement right there?
[SPEAKER_02]: She was guilt tripping us and saying the thing and he says,
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to get on the same page.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I talk about the three things that are needed for a couple to be aligned for boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is looking at willingness, looking at your ability.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you actually do this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also looking at your importance.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you understand why this boundaries important to your partner?
[SPEAKER_02]: and then T stands for take action.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in take action, I walk people through my three A's, which is going to help you create a step-by-step plan, depending on who your mother and Lana have all kinds of different scripts throughout the book as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I walk people through my three A's.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first A is anticipate.
[SPEAKER_02]: The second one is Act, and the third one is Adjust.
[SPEAKER_02]: because we don't just want to keep going through these experiences, but we want to have that moment after seeing the family and to say, hey, we were on the same team.
[SPEAKER_02]: We just got through that together.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm grateful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing this with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also talk about, how could we do it differently next time?
[SPEAKER_02]: What felt good?
[SPEAKER_02]: What didn't?
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do we remain a team?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that really is step five.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's robust.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember when I was narrating the book, I thought, Whew, I've just put in this robust step that like the system that I bring couples through and cover in such detail that it's my hope that people at home can do those steps with their partner and then get to the end and say, okay, we have a plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not just that you have a plan, but you know why you're doing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what's important to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know the family dynamic at play.
[SPEAKER_02]: You understand what boundaries actually are and what you need to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you also have this awareness of who you are, who your partner is, and who the family is that you're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Laura, I have to say this because I think this is so important.
[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned it earlier and I want to make sure I came back to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I intentionally do not use the word narcissist in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the moment you are going to label a family member as a narcissist, you are shutting down conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not saying that that is not helpful in some people in some cases.
[SPEAKER_02]: You might need to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that might be who that person is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you already know that maybe your husband partner already knows that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if your partner does not agree with you on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you go and say, oh, look, your mother's a narcissist.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really damaging to the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And instead, we can look at a category of behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then once we understand who someone else is and the behaviors that they do, this is where the autonomy and agency comes into play, then I get to go and say, now that I know this about this person, what's the best way for me to respond?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's outlined in step five.
[SPEAKER_01]: fabulous.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my mindset about that word narcissism has recently softened a little because I've always been like, it's so limiting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like you slept that label on people and there's nowhere to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just write them off.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and I really look at.
[SPEAKER_01]: life through the lens of compassion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just can't write people off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although you might say, it's not safe for me to be in relationship with this person.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're abusive or they're just, you know, they're not open to change within the relationship at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I've also, I just wanted to say, I think we're kind of on the same page about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: The goal in what you're talking about here is to find a way for people to actually navigate and work through these challenges, which are common, as you pointed out, and come out with relationships that feel satisfying for everyone, because we're actually talking about how to be close, not how to be distant, we want the family relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a reason for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in this, I know so many people, so many women come to me saying cutting off is not an option because this is my partner's family and it is important to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we want to have the grandparent and generational teachings and the stories that get shared on the holiday table and we want that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now the question is how do we do it so it works better for us so that we don't end up going there for X number of days with the guilt trip and the exhaustion and we're just a disappointment and then we leave and then the next time it comes around we're thinking gosh how do I even go back into that place where I'm just such a great disappointment right.
[SPEAKER_02]: we can do our work.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's our work to do in this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm glad that we're bringing up the conversation around narcissism because I do think I understand narcissism as a continuum rather than an all or nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know we think about healthy levels of narcissism you have to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: some narcissism inside of you to be able to stand up in front of that work meeting for us to sit here on a podcast and have a conversation together.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to believe that I have something to say that's a continuum and because someone with no flavor, like no narcissism degree, has no self-worth, has no identity, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that I think is where it's really difficult when we have this kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: and context of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And especially the conversation around families, we need new on some context.
[SPEAKER_02]: It matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't need more division in our, in our Western culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, there's so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to add one more thing to about what I was saying about the disappointment and the expectation of visiting is that like to bring it full circle this past holiday season when my one of my kids was only going to be visiting for like basically twenty four thirty six hours I did feel disappointed I want more time with them and I used I referenced
[SPEAKER_01]: the family relationship with our extended family that I've been talking about to say, I may feel disappointed, but that's not my kid's problem to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's I can be disappointed, but also how can I...
[SPEAKER_01]: remind myself that while they're here, I want to just be present with the fact that they're here and just make the most of it while they're here and not lose the connection to being together because I'm focusing on.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I wanted you to stay longer.
[SPEAKER_01]: My needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Me.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, not me and my needs only.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and a lot of parents will come to me and say so you're telling me then as a mother and law, I suggest I should just have no needs and that's the opposite of what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: you get to have needs and find healthy ways to communicate that with your family.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also then not your child's job to manage your adult feelings.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is a generational shift that we're really doing right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a hard one to support me in such a big one.
[SPEAKER_02]: My son, I remember, came to me one day and had said, you know, I know we're supposed to hang out together, but my friends are at the park and I go out and play with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, yeah, you know what, buddy?
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, I know your friends are important to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's make sure we schedule some time together.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's tab, my daughter's eight.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I can feel that separation and develop mentally appropriate, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I say let's let's schedule this time together and what I love that moment symbolized for us is he can come to me with his needs and he knows that I'm not upset at him and it's one of the most powerful things I've been tears me up a little bit, I've been trying to teach him.
[SPEAKER_02]: As I say to him, I might be angry but I'm not angry at you and you are not responsible for my feelings.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am allowed to have this emotion though, but it's not on you and you don't have to fix it and it's mine.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that differentiation right there is so healthy for our kids to learn and for them to also have the other perspective, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to teach self and other so that
[SPEAKER_02]: the impact on our relationship and on me.
[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't feel good.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we then balance the both?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that is such a, it's a hard skill, but I think it's so important for parents to not lose themselves in this idea that we always put our kids feelings first.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want that to sound wrong, but do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do because you just perfectly illustrated.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: Both people had feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: His feelings are more your responsibility to help him with than, but yours are not his to help him with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then as he grows, he learns to be responsible for his own.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of what's missing for so many of us is never having grown up that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why
[SPEAKER_01]: re-learning or learning for the first time how to actually have relationships where everyone's needs are considered and no one is taking up all of the emotional space or their needs are now taking up all of the space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Tracy.
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been such an awesome conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love what you're doing and what you're saying and this book that I'll now be reading with my family.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really want to, like, after I read it, give it to my kids too because it seems like, you know, even without the word mother and mother, so much information in here about navigating relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like
[SPEAKER_01]: box too, but can people work with you too?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm sure that some people who read the book are like, help us do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can find me.
[SPEAKER_02]: My website is DrTracyD.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can find all the information there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Reach out to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always say to people, if you've heard me talk, please send me a message.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me know how I can support you just because I know I know from as as a therapist I also know as a supervisor to other therapists that navigating all of these pieces especially as a couple's therapist is so tricky because the last thing we want to do is create more damage and
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is sometimes something, it's a, it's kind of the story that I hear where people will say, well, we went to couples therapy and then my couples therapist said this and now we've just not been able to get out of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if other therapists or people are looking for more support, feel free to reach out to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for not only for coming on to therapy chat, but also taking extra time with my many questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate you and the work you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad that we've connected.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Laura.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so grateful for a conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: As you said before we started, we're just two therapists that are in her party, having a week chat.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been fantastic and I'm so grateful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_00]: With your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPodcast.com.