[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Barbell Medicine podcast where we bring modern medicine to strengthen conditioning and strengthen conditioning to modern medicine.
[SPEAKER_01]: On today's episode, we have a very special guest, Dr. Franco and Pelaziri.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is redefining how we think about training and sports and performance that came across some papers.
[SPEAKER_01]: of starting a few years ago and have been addicted to them and so now you guys get to learn from one of the best in exercise physiology, statistical methodology, and everything having to do with sports science, specifically around training load and injury prevention.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's helped teams and athletes move from guesswork to a scientific approach.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's honored to welcome Dr. Franco and Pelaziri to the Barbell Medicine podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining me.
[SPEAKER_01]: How's it going?
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much for having me as it's going well and I'm not that good as you're saying, but I really appreciate the take well there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so look if and when the next time I come to Australia and whatever, maybe you give me a more grandiose introduction that I deserve that's the idea here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't be very beat.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was so.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell our audience who may not be familiar with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit about what you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's your day to day?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you're at university right now, but is it mostly research or you teach you and you're doing a little bit of both?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on over there?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, now I joined the University of the Knowledge of Sydney in 2018, before that I work for in private sector.
[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, so I'm relatively, I'm a rookie in the academic system.
[SPEAKER_03]: But so I worked ten years in a private research center, basically there was a company sponsoring athletes and teams.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they were for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: The idea was simply that since they were giving money to teams and athletes, they want someone taking care of their investment.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is our approach sport at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_03]: And after a transition for 10 years in orthopedics, just to have a new experience and open a bit of my mind and actually was really helpful.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in the meantime,
[SPEAKER_03]: train at least teams and other stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now I'm taking care of research methods.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm teaching research methods.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm here at the university.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm focusing on various areas like training load is one of my main areas historically, basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm teaching sport epidemiology and all this kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: old-boding things.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I was gonna say, do you ever get, you know, somebody sees you and they're like recognize you or or whatever Maybe from your introduction.
[SPEAKER_01]: They say, oh, you're the training load guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, you know, I also am interested in other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that ever happened to you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's actually, it happens a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I start my career writing papers on training load, and also recently to try to clarify some concepts about training load.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm more popular for training load, but recently,
[SPEAKER_03]: I had some back and forth with some researchers in journal for the the so-called acute chronic workload ratio, which is a ratio that is supposed to help preventing injuries and
[SPEAKER_03]: and our real knowledge of hamstring, not the hamstring exercises.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm approaching the area more from a military search perspective, which military search is basically the study of search methods.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the main reason is just because we want to give information to coaches that are helpful and I don't want to be
[SPEAKER_03]: the one creating too much confusion.
[SPEAKER_03]: So sometimes I have a bit of question some, at least the ways some results are communicated to coaches and can create more problem than solutions, let's say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It also makes science communication something we try to do here at part of a lot easier when there is, there's no need to hire a specialist to interpret the paper because it's written in such a way or the methodology has done in such a way where you're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I need to have a PhD in this specific thing to understand what was done here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to know what you found when you did the research, but I'm not smart enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is helpful, I think, to have some steeping there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We start each one of these podcasts with our guests, with guest speakers, with two,
[SPEAKER_01]: question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see how you take them.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first question is, what is your fitness mode of choice?
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were a your current exercise routine, I always want to know what people do for their own sort of fitness just to just to see.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a strength-training addicted.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have the gym here in my garage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was training a lot basically every day for years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I changed a bit my habits after the COVID for some reasons and because
[SPEAKER_03]: The volume of work became quite a lot, so I'm not training a lot now, but when I can, I resistance training is my prefer, for more training and very traditional, and people are telling me, you're training every day, you know, it's not
[SPEAKER_03]: correct good because you have to let call a sadon care i mean i just like it and do i'm doing what i like it so yeah yeah and i'm the training load guy if anyone knows if i'm doing too much it happened to was training load it's me
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I also come from combat sports, which is a very interesting area because the way you approach training load is in my opinion is completely different compared to other disciplines because you want to train a lot, you want to suffer, but this is not only related to the fitness improvements you can have but it is also psychological.
[SPEAKER_03]: thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you want to feel strong, you want to not have regret before competing, which is the days before a competition.
[SPEAKER_03]: A comment is where everything comes out, you start to think, yeah, maybe I didn't do enough, all these kind of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So from that perspective, sometimes pushing a bit the boundaries of training is useful, even if there are some risks.
[SPEAKER_03]: But on the other side, the risk is to
[SPEAKER_03]: go to compete, to fight without the confidence.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you need to balance a bit the two things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why sometimes I'm a bit critical about some forms of training load management that don't consider these other aspects.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's not just fitness, it's also like, are you, do you feel like while I left, I didn't leave any stone unturned, I feel as prepared as I can possibly be, I did everything, and yeah, certainly different personality types would like lead you to different management strategies there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the second question before we dive into the, to start talking about training load is,
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you reading right now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you have a book recommendation for our audience?
[SPEAKER_01]: Mostly, it's a mix of lay and professional folks health and fitness professional folks.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you had a book recommendation, I always like to ask our guests what they write.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm a bit biased here because I have to kind of lead to sure that normally I read the
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason is simple, that is simple, that because there are not a lot of areas in which you can find books or literature specific on methods of research.
[SPEAKER_03]: And epidemiologists, one of these.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some people in sports science criticize me a bit because I rely too much on epidemiology, but in the end of the day, when you want to measure the relation between the exposure and the disease, if the exposure is
[SPEAKER_03]: performance or injuries or whatever it is exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I find that kind of literature very useful and I normally suggest this literature to everyone that wants you know who wants to know more about the research so modern epidemiology of Green and Roteman is
[SPEAKER_03]: Live should be a big names in epidemiology is something I recommend and I have another bias, which is I read the book so I've burned the combata.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really value burn as a professional
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: It does, it says, but when it's here in Sydney, we often meet and I have a very nice conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And besides,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if we have time to go into this, but I like to surround myself with people that challenge me intellectually.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't like to have people that just tell me how good I am, because at some point you may think it to be much better what you really are, so I think it's important to have this kind of, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I like a lot how the right things and the chromatic approach.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I will, I will then, I'm just going to throw my script away then.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very complimentary and now we're just going to be antagonistic and just see what I'm going to see how this goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's start with the first of today's topic.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be training load.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a long time the term training load has been used to characterize the amount
[SPEAKER_01]: and the nature of, in this case, exercise or potentially sports practice or sports competition, that an individual performs.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, your work further refined that understanding to kind of come up to subcategories, external, and internal training, let's the first time I ever saw that in the research.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, for listeners who may not be familiar with these terms, how do you define external and internal training loads?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we came out with this classification 20 years ago, just for full transparency.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not something I invented.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a classification that was used in the coaching word in some niche areas of coaching word and they just transformed these in something that could be communicating from a scientific perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when I read the first time, I found it quite reasonable.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a huge fan of logic, so I found it very logic.
[SPEAKER_03]: You use something and something can be a barbell can be sprinting or whatever in order to obtain an internal response.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is why you use these forms of restraining strategies.
[SPEAKER_03]: The point is that how people adapt to these trends similar is based on the internal response, how your body is reacting to that load.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we can lift 100 kilograms both, but this can have different effect, because
[SPEAKER_03]: for me, maybe too much, and for you, can be just at the warm up.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, in the end of the day, the reason why we manipulate these exercises that I define external load, that is to induce an internal physiological response, that's why we call internal load.
[SPEAKER_03]: So external is something you administer from outside like a training plan when you write down a training plan you have to write down something and internal in the is the internal response.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a great description, and when we do our programming lectures, we use these terms and to your point when first would people first hear of these, they have that sort of logical understanding like, oh, this seems to use your word reasonable and yeah, you can spend some time trying to pick it apart, you know, and one of the first maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: barriers to if for someone adopting that terminology or even considering it useful is like, OK, well, great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how are we going to measure the external load?
[SPEAKER_01]: And how are we going to measure the internal load?
[SPEAKER_01]: So like when it comes to external load, if we think this is like the nuts and bolts of a training program, are we just talking about things like intensity, volume, stuff like that, or are there other ways that you have found to measure external
[SPEAKER_01]: either greater transference to the outcome of interest or otherwise you feel like they're more important.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's actually not an easy question and so the answer is quite complicated by that try to keep it simple.
[SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, I normally start with the with the simple concept.
[SPEAKER_03]: The monitoring training load makes sense if you start with the training plan.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's not such a thing like monitoring something just for monitoring.
[SPEAKER_03]: So normally what I try to explain is that what to measure and how to monitor the pants on your training plan.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you decide to use some training strategies, I suppose you have an idea, you have an idea about the progression you want to follow, all these kind of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what you should follow and monitor is if what you
[SPEAKER_03]: happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you are actually doing what you were supposed to do, this is the first point of the month, which means there's not such a thing like the best metric, the best major for training load.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have the side in your training to do, if you have the side in the
[SPEAKER_03]: to introduce the 10 screens for some reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: What you want to know if they have completed the 10 screens and the intensity of the screens, because you have in your mind an idea, so the idea is to reach some high speeds.
[SPEAKER_03]: so that this can have a neuromassular effect or this kind of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I decide what to measure based on my program.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the common question of people is, what's the best metric?
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no best metric.
[SPEAKER_03]: It depends on if you have designed your training, a resistance training based on time and attention, you will probably monitor the time and attention.
[SPEAKER_03]: because that was your goal.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's really everything start from the plan and from the coach.
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't start from, let's say, the sports science department.
[SPEAKER_03]: The sports science department gives you the instruments to monitor what you really care.
[SPEAKER_03]: the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the variables that you have used to design your program.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
[SPEAKER_01]: I dig that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had mentioned this phrase mediating mechanism, the idea that if you were trying to come up with a training measure, it's most useful if it captures the mediating mechanism where mediating mechanism refers to what's causing the potential change in, in this case, like a fitness adaptation or performance change, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So for strength training, if we were trying to come up with the mediating mechanism,
[SPEAKER_01]: you could come up with a worse metric than like a number of hard sets or average intensity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you could, you could complete argue about which one's most useful, which one correlates best.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are specific values that you would want to track based on your predicted mediating mechanism, which may or may not be correct.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's actually an important point.
[SPEAKER_03]: The problem,
[SPEAKER_03]: The problem is that most of the time, you can't measure these mediating mechanisms.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what do you do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because let's say, when you're using a marble, you want to induce some neuromusyl or a specific neuromusyl stimulus, but you can't measure the neuromusyl stimulus.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's why sometimes you measure external load, and not because you don't want to measure internal load, because you can't do that,
[SPEAKER_03]: the electrical activity of the muscle, these kind of things that's not something you can do on a routine base.
[SPEAKER_03]: So normally what you do, you use a major external load as a proxy of these internal responses.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the problem is that the proxy may be not that accurate.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it's also true that in real world, we don't have all these instruments at the moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for example, now people are using velocity-based training a lot in...
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the idea behind is to provide the very specific neuromassular stimulus.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so they are using velocity as a proxy of a mediator.
[SPEAKER_03]: The literature that you can read is to understand whether
[SPEAKER_03]: velocity is actually good proxy of the mediator.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is how you should read the literature, not just jumping here and there, because also because there's too much literature around.
[SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, most is not really reliable, but it's plenty.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you need to have a sort of roadmap when you want to enter in this area of evidence-based practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, there's no, I can't answer telling you what's the best major, because you can also use just the proportion of maximum RM and the assumption is that if I'm working 90% this is correspond to an enormous stimulus that is higher enough to achieve what I want to achieve.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so in that case it's okay, I don't complain now, you know, now with the new wearables, all these technologies, when you're using these raw majors, it seems you, you know, you're not doing your job, now you're perfectly doing your job, and maybe even more, or appropriate than other, than other major.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's it's more again why you're doing something.
[SPEAKER_03]: So think about why you're writing in your piece of paper on your computer, that specific program.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you have a three sets for something, why are you doing that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because there should be a reason.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, this is actually how I start to, I realized my biases.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one day I was writing a training program for some matrix, and I used a lot of deadlifts, and if you asked me at the time, I could tell you a lot of reasons why these deadlifts were.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at some point, I start to think, well, I always use that leaves, even before starting to understand science or these kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I always think, why I'm using that leaf and realize that I simply like that leaf.
[SPEAKER_03]: So maybe this is why I'm using, but the point is that there are other reasons why I'm using that leaf, but my point is that sometimes we do things because we are used to do that and we try to create
[SPEAKER_03]: to generate an hypothesis of why we're doing that more as a reaction cognitive dissonance.
[SPEAKER_03]: So at over time, I just embrace my biases.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know that I'm doing as I told you, I'm using a lot of resistance training, even in context where people were not used to do that and that was criticized as I don't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's important, I grow up
[SPEAKER_03]: and I'm just doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't try to say, this is evidence based.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, no, that's my experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't see evidence that convinced me to change what I have done until now based on my experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's how I use literature and research.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would like to draw attention to the listeners at that home that that is probably the best way to kind of wrestle with our own bias.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have our own biases for sure, and but also wanting to kind of abide by evidence-based practices like you can choose to do something that has minimal evidence to support
[SPEAKER_01]: picking that particular thing and instead of backfilling, you know, reverse engineering or reason to try to make yourself feel good and warm and fuzzy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can say, I just like it, but I haven't also been convinced that it's the wrong choice based on the existing evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's seen that's totally reasonable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, for example, if somebody instead of deadlift was like, well, I prefer Romanian deadlift.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a specific variation.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd be like,
[SPEAKER_01]: fine, not only because only because you didn't arrive at deadlifts by eliminating all of these other choices based on some, you know, canon of evidence that exists because it doesn't it's more like you're just like I like deadlift and from the floor, you want to deadlift from the top, that that's fine, like whatever, it's all the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, again, I think sometimes people miss a bit, uh,
[SPEAKER_03]: the point of training, especially now with this fixation for having this best practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm saying fixation because is wrong, is because
[SPEAKER_03]: It's abuse, this term, and this idea of using evidence-based methods is very complicated to use evidence-based methods, and most of the time people don't even know where what is evidence-based practice, and I think it's just because of the reserve and ab-satum pame, and so on.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's actually not the how it works.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say now it's even more complicated than in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: but the point is that we need to be realistic and pragmatic when we do things and we need to approach coaching from a bigger perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I find very disappointing especially from some coaches that they always insist about holistic view.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now there is also this nice term, dynamic system,
[SPEAKER_03]: On the other side, they tend to simplify too much, they don't see the big picture.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I tell you why I think that lifting is good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Especially when I start to work in sports, where the artists don't have a lot of experience in resistance training.
[SPEAKER_03]: What, and you know very well, with that lift, you can increase the load relatively soon, so you can lift more than one hundred kilograms in a relatively short time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And imagine someone that has no spinners with weight, so they don't know that one hundred kilograms is not a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: When they see this and when I'm the killer and they start to live this and when I'm the killer ones, they they feel they start to feel strong more confident and this kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that for me is is more a way to give at least some confidence more than training their back.
[SPEAKER_03]: And once they start to approach resistance training, they see the loads and more than one kilograms, they are more engaged in these new form of training, especially if they are not used.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I see these training strategies from another perspective, not simply just because I'm training a specific muscle, but
[SPEAKER_03]: is more in as a strategy to reach something as that is not purely physical.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hard to make that tangible also.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're more confident now.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we measure that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's some questionnaires, obviously, but yeah, it's interesting perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if the external training load that you're measuring is by some sort of variable that you feel like is likely to contribute to the adaptation of interest or adaptations of interest, how would you go about measuring internal training load?
[SPEAKER_01]: Measure the specific thing you use proxies something like RPE session RPE heart rate All is telling you how basically how the body is experiencing whatever the external training load is and allows you to kind of Rate wells is harder or easier more or less stressful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that same accurate to you or do you feel like I'm over-simplifying?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it's not an oversimplification is the only thing we can do, basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: So sometimes you measure perception because it's easy to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have other instruments and is a proxy of intensity, basically.
[SPEAKER_03]: People told me, yeah, but RP also include other components like psychological components and so on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's true, but do you have something else, something working better that exclude the psychological components beside the psychological components, influenced a lot of other measures?
[SPEAKER_03]: also external.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you measure one day, one day, you are for some reason very well-motivated, maybe you're even a bit hungry, that day for some reason you can push harder and another day you push less.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's no major that is not influenced, there's a spatial in sport where
[SPEAKER_03]: is all performance based and performance is very influenza-by-motivation.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's all some sort of other influences.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's important to understand and knowledge the limitations of the major that you're using.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're using RP, you know that this can be influenza-by-other.
[SPEAKER_03]: other factors, but the same is heart rate, the same is, even if you use the EMG, this can be impressive, simply by where you are placing the electrodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's no, there's not such a measure like a perfect or a gall standard measure.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of measures.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the way I think people may interpret triangle monitoring is like having pieces of information
[SPEAKER_03]: that in isolation, they don't tell you a lot, but when they combine, they can give you a better picture of the situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you may want to use RP, heart rate, you use external load.
[SPEAKER_03]: You combine all these information, and you try to see if there is a trend in some direction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I use often the term trend, because the trends,
[SPEAKER_03]: are what we are observing.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you measure something specifically in that session with that address, just the picture of that moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so let's say that the perception is higher,
[SPEAKER_03]: It may be because the other is tired because the day before they did something that didn't slip well, the day after the same exercise can induce a slightly different kind of response.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I'm saying internal response is actually important because in the end of the day is the internal response that the determine.
[SPEAKER_03]: what you're improving or the adaptation, so all these kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the way and the way we wrote that several times, you understand how to monitor athletes, is by measuring all these responses.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you measure the stimulus, you try to measure the response, heart rate variability, normally is a response.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you measure after the training to see how you respond in.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the assumption is that
[SPEAKER_03]: the magnitude of the responses in some ways related to the magnitude of the stimulus.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, and you try to balance this, and this is a way to understand the training tolerance of the
[SPEAKER_03]: at the limits.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have to go to an Olympic Games, you don't want to go there as tourists, you go there to compete and have some chances of either winning or having a good placement.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the only way to do that is to push.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other thing, I cannot cut half the volume of training because I reduce the injury risk or this kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there is actually a simple reason why you reduce the risk, because you are training less.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the time entry is lower.
[SPEAKER_03]: But this also means compromising the possibility to excel in the performance.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's normal, and this is why you try to understand tolerance and to work closer.
[SPEAKER_03]: to the tolerance, in at least the night performance sport.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Effectively, you're trying to get people to be able to, especially athletes at that level, to effectively maximize as much training as they can do without blowing themselves up.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this case, an injury or otherwise, like losing motivation over training syndrome, perhaps, something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the general speaking, the more you can train and tolerate that,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a hedge that the more fitness adaptations and the higher your performance is likely to be, um, you know, late later on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, to your point, we could you and I together, we could mesh our brains together and come up with a training program that has zero injury risk.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just wouldn't train at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just wouldn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't be very effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no injury.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're injury free.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was one of the biggest caution had when all these massive training load in injury is started 10 years ago.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because for example, people are scared about fatigue and say, well, but you know that when you train someone, you actually want to induce some fatigue, otherwise you can't train.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the fact that the naturality is perceiving fatigue for me, it's not the problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: The problem is that the fatigue is higher than what I expect or what the naturality is expecting.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's because this means that I don't have control on the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the kind of narrative we have created as por scientists is that people should be scared about training about fatigue.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there is a risk when you train.
[SPEAKER_03]: There isn't a study about training load in English in OK players, and it was the only study that I consider
[SPEAKER_03]: well done out of 100 and this was done by the Yanishrair group in Canada.
[SPEAKER_03]: So basically they use a medical term target trial emulation so they try to
[SPEAKER_03]: emulated target trial with the observational data, and what they have done is interesting because they didn't only examine the increase in the risk, increase in the participation in sport, but they also compare this increase with the increase that you would expect just because you're training more.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in other words, if you're sprinting 10 times, you have half of the
[SPEAKER_00]: more.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is what people where people got tricked by the fact that they didn't realize that the training is both the stimulus, but it's also the time and trace.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the more you train, the more you are exposed at risk, but still you need to train.
[SPEAKER_03]: What they have shown is that the more you train, the more you increase the risk of injury, which is actually what we respect,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a paradox of things, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and no, it's actually there is a protective effect.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the more you train, the less injury-pronged you are, of course, since you are training more, the risk is increasing, because you are just doing more.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the reason protective effect of training itself for injury and how much you have to train some money, it's in relation to the performance, is a risk benefit analysis that's before an Olympic game, you can risk much more because the benefit may be higher than during the season, for example.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people don't appreciate that because they're like, well, look, if you increase training load too rapidly, for example, for an individual to tolerate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, injury risk goes up a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the assumption, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but there's, there's little caveatting around that where it's like, yeah, but their performance could also go up a bunch too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's probably not the, the, the potential for benefit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably not proportional to the potential for injury.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, in this case, you would assume that the potential for benefit is actually higher than the potential for injury.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, we're just, it's an optimization problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're walking this tight rope and trying to figure out, you know, you know, should we push or not?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, and that's why you monitor training, because you're normally, I hope people coaches have a plan in their mind, so you want to just see if the plan is going as we're supposed to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is why you monitor that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think you can discuss monitoring without discussing also the training program.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is where I, yeah, this is it, but this is where I find myself a bit uncomfortable when I also have this kind of interviews people asking what kind of matter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know what's your training based on the training.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can discuss what can be the best, but it's not only what is the training, what is the goal of your training.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why are you jumping, why are you doing, I don't know, power cleanser,
[SPEAKER_03]: I suppose there is a reason.
[SPEAKER_03]: So based on the reasons why you are doing that, we can decide what to monitor, but everything is around the culture.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not around the sports science department, and this is actually a bit my personal and different perspective than other colleagues.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, especially if they're in the sports science department, they're like, hey, what do you talk about?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Frank, I'll come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you waiting to call you cutting us out?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, well, it's not where the decisions are necessarily made.
[SPEAKER_01]: I gave a presentation at the European Powerlifting Conference in 2019 talking about injury risk in powerlifting, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And some ways to maybe reduce that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's the lay of the land?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the average injury risk per thousand participation hours?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about two to four depending on the population that you look at, which is
[SPEAKER_01]: compared to other things, pretty low.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, so, you know, how would you manipulate this?
[SPEAKER_01]: How could you make it more risky versus less risky?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, like, how does that interplay with performance?
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the time, one of the metrics that had been put forth to, like, track is this acute tecronic workload, which is probably more geared towards either team sports and during sports or whatever, just because the time component is so
[SPEAKER_01]: pertinent to the mediated mechanism and that in endurance boards.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's your volume basically in team sports.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your exposure Not too useful for resistance training tracking because you like you could be in the gym for three hours and only have done You know 15 sets whereas I could also have been done in an hour, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not it's not perfect there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm wondering
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were trying to come up with some sort of variable to monitor with respect to injury risk in resistance training, do you have any ideas about how you would go about monitoring that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you just want to throw your hands up and say, I don't know, that's totally fine too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just more curious.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, I don't know, but because there's no literature that can help us understand that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I know I'm saying that, and most colleagues would probably disagree, but I can defend my position everywhere in front to everyone, because Xiaomi, a good study, explaining what
[SPEAKER_03]: or yeah, to control for the injury risk and I can show you why these studies are not good enough to understand how to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that we don't have to try, is it different?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm just saying that this idea that there are some scientific methods to control for the train load in order to limit the risk of injuries.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's simply not true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a wishful thinking, but it's not true.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's not such a matrix.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are things that we do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you think about it, the reason one of the reason why the acute chronic ratio became popular is because the message is actually a message that is familiar to quote,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you have to avoid spikes, you have to follow progression.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first time I start to read about this rate as a well, but that's, this is actually the normal and a training methodology.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't see anything different than people start to say, yeah, but now we have the proofs, and I know that's not the proof, and we publish the reasons why this ratio doesn't provide the proof,
[SPEAKER_03]: At the end of the day, the reason why people accept some matrix is because they fit with our idea of good training.
[SPEAKER_03]: I recently posted a study, one of the biggest studies, or more than 5,000 runners, and they also use the acute chronic ratio.
[SPEAKER_03]: The study is properly done because they also use a causal interest approach to understand the causal relation.
[SPEAKER_03]: long story short, their study, which is unquestionably one of the best than until now, show the opposite trend.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the higher the this ratio, the lower the injury risk.
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, no one advertised this study because it goes against what we normally think, because based on the study, the faster and the more you increase the lower the injury
[SPEAKER_03]: but the meat is a much stronger than the other study showing that the spikes are dangerous.
[SPEAKER_03]: So people just pick the results that fit their idlers.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my point was, okay, if you're just selecting the studies that fit your idler,
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't need to study, just go on and do what you think is good, and that's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if out of one other study, you pick the 30 that support your idea and you are ignoring the other 70, what's even the point of running all this study, just do it too.
[SPEAKER_03]: just do what you want.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would be comfortable to follow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is what I do sometimes I prefer to follow these experienced based approaches than strategies based on weak evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're just going to do whatever you want to do anyway, you don't need literature to support that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, just do it and don't tell anyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you don't have to explain yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the metrics we've been trying to were collecting data on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have app right with tens of thousands of people that log their training in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been coming up with this, it's like a training impulse score effectively takes the average intensity, how many reps you did the proximity to failure of that set right using RPE or with the reps and reserve anchor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then was it a compound exercise or an isolation exercise?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think those two things affect people differently and was it on a machine or was it freestanding?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why I believe.
[SPEAKER_01]: that compound, you know, freeze-dating exercise in parts they slightly different sort of stress to somebody than an isolation one done on a machine, but that's just my belief system.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm open to being wrong anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm trying to figure out, does that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a good proxy for training load in so far as it would mediate the injury risk and then also people's sort of arc for strength in this case?
[SPEAKER_01]: I, the arc towards strength, it's pretty good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I, I'm seeing some pretty good correlation there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have an obviously tracked injuries in this prospective way, just yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's, that's where I'm, I'm trending.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm, I'd be happy to not only get your thoughts on that, but also for somebody to prove me wrong, it's actually that's all bullshit.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to measure all of that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just measure this other thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe something more, are more simpler.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, do you feel like your, an injury's coming on?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the person could predict that ahead of a session.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just asked them, for example, I'd be happy if that were the case because that, hey, look, I don't have to track all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just have to ask you before every training session.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, how are you feeling?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I can just use that, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is actually, this is the reason why I started to use RP because in the end of the day, I was thinking, okay, when you train someone as a coach and you are on the field, you try to understand how they are responding to the training that they are fine, you speak with the others, say how do you feel today?
[SPEAKER_03]: And if someone is telling you, today I don't feel well, I'm not concentrated.
[SPEAKER_03]: You'd normally adjust the training,
[SPEAKER_03]: based on this feedback.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I started to say, okay, but if we actually use this kind of feedback from the answer, why don't we try to quantify a bit this kind of information so that I can use to monitor
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's why I found perception important and when people told me, yeah, but this is influential by psychological aspects, yeah, that's actually why I think is important because I want to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a future.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a bug.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: For me, it's more dangerous that you complete some exercises when you are in a bad day, you are not very concentrated, these kind of things because you can, you know, that technique can be, you don't focus on that technique and this can.
[SPEAKER_03]: create problems.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these are the kind of information that I think are important.
[SPEAKER_03]: So come back to you to your initial question.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that measuring all these things may be useful to understand why something happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't predict what is going to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if something happened, you can try to understand why, for example, I had this injury or why the performer was so bad and if you had different information, for example, you have these objective measures, but you also have some perception and maybe the others told you something and you ignore or you didn't
[SPEAKER_03]: or you didn't focus for some reason on this kind of feedback.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you go back and you try to understand why something happened in order to in the future to avoid what you made think where mistakes.
[SPEAKER_03]: But predicting something happening in the future is the most difficult thing you can do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even with this machine learning, all these kind of meters that we now have, most of the time the work you create the model based on what happened in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what is going to happen in the future is something you have to test, this is called external validation, is commonly used in cleaning color.
[SPEAKER_03]: setting where you have a pronouncing model and you want to validate in a new population, or even in your population, but in the future.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's an important part because it's much easier to fit a model with all data.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's much more difficult to use that model to predict what is going to happen in the future, which is what most people in reality want, but
[SPEAKER_03]: So, this is the reason why I think monitoring all this information can be useful.
[SPEAKER_03]: In addition, it is also to understand how athletes are coping with the training, so with the stress you have planned.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the mapping of the key is always to try to understand how they are tolerating
[SPEAKER_03]: the training.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to do that, you don't need only to measure the training load, you need also to have some measure of responses.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can be measure of fatigue or even perception or at a rate variability, it doesn't matter what you're using, but you want to understand with that specific training load, what is the response and how is this response moving is moving in
[SPEAKER_03]: There may be a period in which you decide to intensify the training and you know that you will treat weeks of intensify training will induce fatigue.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you start to see an increasing fatigue, that's not the problem of opinion because that's actually what I wanted to do with my training.
[SPEAKER_03]: But for example, after a while, I lower the training load and I see that fatigue is not going down,
[SPEAKER_03]: A sign that something is going wrong, and so again this can open the two additional investigations, asking the others, maybe sometimes you can also do some medical screening, this happened when I was working with cyclists, they were not responding well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is, I think, the only reasonable thing that you can do now with all these majors.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that in the future, maybe we can develop something stronger at the moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't see this happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if there are a lot of where it was now, so there are a lot of informations coming.
[SPEAKER_03]: But moving from this data to real information, this is another beast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, ideally you would have some objective stuff, right, these metrics, and you'd have also some subjective feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, like, how are you feeling?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have heart rate variability, you know, which is something an objective number, but somebody could report that, are you sore?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel like you have, you know, you have pain?
[SPEAKER_01]: These stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, blending those together and seeing like, well, is this the predicted response based on the change in the training?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it, oh, this is far different than I expected.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wonder why.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you got a deep, deep deeper, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know yet how this is all going to pan out and if somebody else did, I wouldn't have to do this work.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll see what happens with the wearables that actually brings up a question ahead for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So many studies are using statistical associations between training load and injury risk.
[SPEAKER_01]: But inferring causality, as you'd mentioned, is it's challenging to be charitable.
[SPEAKER_01]: If not inappropriate, just based on the methodologies being used.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your take on a listener who's, they got a fitness tracker?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they get some sort of training load score, whether it's strain, for example, or some other proprietary number,
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that useful information and should they be asking themselves or their coaches to make sure that like they're in a particular range like how do you view all that stuff is it just noise or just kind of like interesting information you could potentially draw a trend from I don't know how do you view that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to be careful on my answer to this question.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have our legal team on retainer were good work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I mean.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's, of course, there is a commercial interest behind some matrix.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, none necessarily they can have these matrix can be solid in terms of science.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even when there are published papers, nowadays it's not enough to have something published somewhere more or less you can publish everything nowadays.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you need to be, and this is complicating the area, a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: People need to be good enough to understand whether something they're reading or something that companies use to support their methods.
[SPEAKER_03]: are actually solid from a scientific and robust enough from a scientific perspective, which is very, very complicated.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is why I complain with some colleagues because the way we communicate in our science is different than 20 years ago.
[SPEAKER_03]: 20 years ago science and the research was basically a niche area only researchers
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, matches this kind of information and now this information are out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone can access and read.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know that in any area, I've made a mention, not even, I've met sometimes the mention articles on predatory journalists that they don't even know.
[SPEAKER_03]: is a predator regional.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the responsibility of scientists nowadays is a completely different.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when we write something especially for example an abstract, we need to understand that people may just read the title and the abstract, sometimes just the title.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you use a catchy title, but the title is misleading,
[SPEAKER_03]: This is problematic because you are popularizing the concept that may be wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe in the discussion, you wrote, okay, these are the limitations, but people don't read that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is a responsibility we have.
[SPEAKER_03]: and even if I understand that you can have more traction on social media with some titles or strong ups at most of the time, these the results are overinterpret or oversoul.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is one of the problems.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these matrix that are created by companies are most of the time are
[SPEAKER_03]: instrument to be competitive on the market.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this can buy us of course everything they say about this metric.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can rely on what the companies are telling you is like to ask to a chef with
[SPEAKER_03]: if they cook well, of course they will sell you, yeah, and cooking well.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can rely on what they say, you have to use your intuition, your capacity to critically examine the information they are telling you.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, if it's
[SPEAKER_03]: too good is unlikely true because that is not that easy to this area is plenty of uncertainty and the reason why some matrix or some majors got traction is because they give you what you want and what you want is something that decreases your uncertainty because we cope very bad with uncertainty and after a while we create this award of you
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the illusion of control, the illusion that we are controlling the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you are not controlling the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is outside our reach.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can try to control the process, which is different than controlling the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: And training is plenty of external factors that can influence how things are going.
[SPEAKER_03]: So as a coach, you're controlling an aspect of the life of athletes, but they have
[SPEAKER_03]: a lot of other things going on around that you don't have, sometimes you don't even know what is going, what they are doing when they are at home.
[SPEAKER_03]: In some team sports professional athletes, in example, in football courts, are monitoring training, these kind of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they have a personal trainer at home, and no one actually is aware of what they are doing with this personal trainer.
[SPEAKER_03]: The monitoring that you are conducting on the field and with the club doesn't consider an important aspect of the training which is what these addresses are doing outside the facility.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there are all these things and after you may want to develop a prediction mode
[SPEAKER_03]: There are majors, I don't want to side them, but there are majors that I'm not an absolute bullshit.
[SPEAKER_03]: They are very commonly used.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason why I'm saying this is because
[SPEAKER_03]: People focus on the numbers and most of the time they miss the meaning of the numbers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I give you again the example of the acute chronic work your duration.
[SPEAKER_03]: When they show me the IOC model with the sweet spot or this kind of things, I was the first time I saw that models as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: based on this model, if they recover, they increase the injury risk, and this doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when I start to explain this to my colleagues, and they say, yeah, you're right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I want to say is that they were focused so much on these numbers 0, 3, 0, 5, 1.2, that they missed the meaning of the number, because they said 0, 5 means that you are training half of
[SPEAKER_03]: the accumulated average previous four weeks volume of whatever you're using.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, after recovering weak, you're telling me that this danger is because they increase the injury risk, but it doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they are tired, let's say, and they're fatigue,
[SPEAKER_03]: I give them a week of recording with the lower intensity and so on.
[SPEAKER_03]: You are telling me this is bad, this is risky, it doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I start to mention this, people start to realize there was something wrong in this model.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is the other point I always make also with my students.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now people are saying, ah, because you know a bit more of statistics or you spot some errors.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now actually, that's not absolutely not true.
[SPEAKER_03]: The statistical study was the last I did.
[SPEAKER_03]: But initially, my concerns,
[SPEAKER_03]: were because just looking at the numbers and what the model was saying, there were things that didn't sound right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just used logic in my coaching experience and that's why it was really disappointed with some coaches because they said, look, you have trained Olympic athletes and you didn't realize that these concepts are unreasonable at least, they don't make sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, this is just to say that you can't even if you are not as scientist, but you have a critical mind, you can spot some inconsistencies in some of these matrix or in the justification.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, using logic can be very helpful to spot that or to some other than something wrong, and this means that you have to pick those major with some grain of salt and not rely on them too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a coach.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want one of these models to be so true because it would make our jobs so much easier like we we have this black box of like all your tools right is how I organize training.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then you're trying to, there's some art in applying that to the individual, but only if it was more formulaic, could you be like, I feel very confident that what I'm doing is likely to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, predicting the future is super hard, but we're like, look, I got numbers.
[SPEAKER_01]: This model works, and it's like, yeah, it actually at face value, you just look at a little bit sideways, and you're like, maybe this model's got some holes in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not quite there at this holy grail of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, look, put in X, you're going to get out and Y, and that's how it goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's more complicated.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's very complicated.
[SPEAKER_03]: Besides the nowadays with machine learning, artificial intelligence, Lalaam, all these kind of things is becoming even more complicated, but there's no
[SPEAKER_03]: I was speaking with a friend and he was using some meat as a look.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't work.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're watching your time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it realized that it was too uncomfortable with these uncertain.
[SPEAKER_03]: So at some point where the very good relations were very direct and straight and said, look,
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the job.
[SPEAKER_03]: The coaching is plenty of uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you cannot cope psychologically, with that, maybe it's better you change job.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you have only two options.
[SPEAKER_03]: One is accept the uncertainty, and you live with that, or you start to create the dogmas, because dogmas are the only thing that can decrease your uncertainty and to make you more comfortable.
[SPEAKER_03]: with the situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these are the two opposite and of course there's some maybe some gray but people tend to polarize in this two S-frame.
[SPEAKER_03]: People that accept their certainty and people that try to create their own word, the ideal word, where they think they have this illusion of control, they have this control, but in reality is an illusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: to tell you what, there's a lot of money in that dog was stuff though, you know, like, oh, this is my proprietary method.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am certain it's concrete.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's binary and I'll sell it to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they do their job, but they have a company.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't blame them.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they are trying to sell something is, it's like when, uh,
[SPEAKER_03]: You go to buy a cloth, they tell you that this is the best style, whatever they are doing their job.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's our job, it's up to us to be strong enough, to critical enough, to understand what is reasonable, what is plausible, and what is acceptable.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in the end of the day, there's always a risk benefit analysis.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever you do, there is a risk and there is a potential banning.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to balance this too, and this is very arbitrary, because the same situation can be perceived in a different way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there are risks that I'm willing to take, and maybe you don't, you don't want.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other way around, there are other situations in which you think that the banning it may be much higher than the risk, but this depends on the context.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, and you were mentioning power lifting this port, you have to train smart, absolutely, but you have to train a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't train, uh,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can't cut the training hard because this is you read the study that is showing you that you decrease the risk of injuries over training these kind of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you don't work.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's not going to work.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not easy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, it's absolutely not easy and besides.
[SPEAKER_03]: It depends a lot on the talent that you have in front of you, because I train the first marathon runners I train and they had zero experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: This ran a one, the marathon.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I never thought I was a good trainer.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just took all it's so strong, it's so talented that even with my shitty training and
[SPEAKER_03]: because I had looked to my friends and yeah that's so full and especially recently I had the look at some of the talent of that guy was so big that overcame all my rabbi straining
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I had a real life like run in with something like this put out programs for free for over a decade now, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So he looked back 10, 15 years ago, maybe some of my first programs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found that they're bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, there's like really bad programs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just maybe good good and less good and maybe more effective, less effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously depends on the individual.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in any case, I've been training my ass off for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to your point earlier about being a powerful, yeah, you do have to train a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now as a master's lifter, everyone's telling me, you got to train less.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on, you're 40 now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to take it down and watch them like, look, I got all this training history behind me.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I train less, I'm a get worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to train more or, you know, figure out ways to keep you stronger.
[SPEAKER_01]: In any case,
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm doing now, I believe in my heart of hearts to at least be the best training I can possibly come up with, otherwise I wouldn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: This guy, same age, been training half the time I have on one of my programs from like 15 years ago, shows up at a meet, kicks my ass, and I'm like,
[SPEAKER_01]: How does this guy, he just must be physically mentally gifted, far beyond the skills that I have to deal with my shitty train.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's good to say.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: The individual response is there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Besides, the other point is that people don't understand that research normally provide you the average response in the population.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't provide you the individual responses.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you don't know exactly how people may respond.
[SPEAKER_03]: And probably your familiar with the idea of a responder and non-responder, that's very tough, because normally what you do, what people do, is you try a training with an athlete, for some reason they don't respond, well, are you thinking they're not responding?
[SPEAKER_03]: And you say, well, it doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, that's maybe not the case because there is a lot of variability in the response even in the same individual.
[SPEAKER_03]: So normally what they say before giving up, given another try, maybe you never know that the second time it can work.
[SPEAKER_03]: And because the way you have to read research is always in terms of beverage responses in the population.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you know if you have 10 athletes, or never age, they may respond in that way, like in the study.
[SPEAKER_03]: but on average you don't know who is responding more than the others and you have to try and you try the only way to try to repeat the same training more than once to be confident that it may be a normal respondent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah the analogy I use is like if you were coaching youth athletes right or you were like their guidance counselor for example and they were like should I play basketball
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, you should try all of these things, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But giving up on a training program or intervention after six weeks, eight weeks, 10 weeks, because it didn't work for you, is like telling that little kid after a little brush with golf, and they weren't very good at it, say, you know what, golf's not for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, look, they could come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: a few months later, and maybe they're the next Tiger Woods, right, or, or, you know, uh, yeah, it was a Cameron Young or whoever, whoever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's, uh, yeah, that the analogy holds up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I've got two questions left for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so first one, this is like a dystopian future.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, a little sci-fi, a little sci-fi thing for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a perfect world, I suppose that we'd have like known training load targets or target ranges for specific goals at sports and levels of advancement within that sport for example, are there any examples of like that happening right now or maybe like training load mandates in sport.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a limit on how much time you can spend practicing during the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, look, you can spend this much money.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you got this much time, this many training or practice sessions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, the risk of them crashing their brains out and not showing up on grid gets too high.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that sort of thing happening anywhere else in sport right now?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, yeah, I mean, there are, yes, there are some,
[SPEAKER_03]: Federations that suggest especially for academies, they, it's not mandatory, these are recommendations.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are some limits in the time, they should be exposed, for example, to headings, because now there is this problem of concussion.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there are some rules, but these rules are more,
[SPEAKER_03]: precautionary strategy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even if there's not a lot of solid evidence that above or below is a can be dangerous, I think it's reasonable sometimes to say, okay, you know, we don't know exactly, but let's keep it under control in some ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's more of this the kind of
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, there are especially for academies and essay for junior athletes, there are some limitations.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether these limitations are really useful or evidence-based, I don't think so, to be honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's very likely that these limits may be good for some, maybe too low for others and too high.
[SPEAKER_03]: for other assets, but in general, it makes sense that if the dangers are not negligible that you want to introduce some sort of control.
[SPEAKER_03]: In the future, I mean, from a theoretical, let's, you were talking about a, a hypothetical future in everything prediction and understanding use in theory is doable.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: in theory, but we don't have the instrument to do that, even with this machine learning all these kind of things, at the moment we don't have the instrument.
[SPEAKER_03]: One problem is to have the majors that allow us to make these predictions.
[SPEAKER_03]: And by major, I mean, the major of various factors that can influence the outcome of the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, there are variables, so maybe in the future there will be some new variables that allow to collect all these information in order to be elaborated.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in theory, this can be done.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like prediction of injuries can be done.
[SPEAKER_03]: In practice, we are not there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we are very, very far from there.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like personalized medicine.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a hot topic, but I know some very, among the best statisticians in the world, saying that it's an illusion, not because it's not doable, is because we don't have at the moment the resources to do that, because it's very,
[SPEAKER_03]: they record a lot of data, a lot of elaboration, running trius to understand your response is too big.
[SPEAKER_03]: So on paper, it's doable.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we cannot, with the resources, we cannot do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I use this example, because when I say, look, in medicine, they are trying to go in that direction, they are struggling and they are billions behind.
[SPEAKER_03]: In sport, that we are in issue, we are so small.
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems to me unlikely that we can do what other fields with 1,000 times the our resources couldn't do, but they are trying to go there, you know, that is using genetic markers or these kind of things, but still is very difficult, but I'm saying that because statistician said it's possible, but we don't have the resources to do that at the moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: So everything we said prediction, predicting injury and the standing individual responses or these kind of things is doable in theory, but we don't have the resources to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think in the next 10 or 20 years we go to 20 years, I don't know, but in the next 10 years I don't see this possible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know this will.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a point people, especially companies, but as a told you, I'm happy to have an open conversation with anyone because in the end of the day, that's my opinion, but if you have a different opinion and we are talking about science, we need to show some evidence and I don't think there are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do think that all of these questions are theoretically answerable, but to your point, yeah, whether it's a technology limitation, resource limitation, both, or just, you know, we don't even know what to measure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're multiple gaps in what we know right now that would limit that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just thinking, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, what it's 20 years, 50 years, 100 years from now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, little Timmy wants to go out for football or whatever, you put him on a conveyor belt.
[SPEAKER_01]: They swab the inside of his cheek and, you know, do a pan scan of him and they're like, this guy needs X for his training load, you know, based on what we know now.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that would be cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: That would be, would but there would be no coach anymore because that you think we're not good in, you don't need anyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps in this dystopian future, everybody ends up being the same level of good at their sport, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there is no, there aren't no winners and losers anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all draws and then yeah, then we're really in a pickle.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's the thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is the last question and I know this is a recent paper.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't directly have to do with measuring training load or maybe more practical example.
[SPEAKER_01]: The recent review I think is from last year was on skill acquisition in sport and for listeners who haven't read this paper, I put in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: A good chunk of the papers are on golf as a golfer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the majority of studies were in inexperienced athletes, inexperienced subjects, and there was only like short-term follow-up for most of them, so a little less excited about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But limitations to the methodology and the inclusion of the included subjects aside, how does the concept of training load intersect with or inform the process of acquiring and mastering sports related skills?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's actually, there is a good friend of mine that I'm using with an expert in skill acquisition and it's also very critical about the area, I mean it has a very critical approach.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are different theories about the volume of practice that you need to master something with some thinking that the more you do the better and some thinking that's not necessarily true.
[SPEAKER_03]: is important and the more you do the better, I am no doubt about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: God maybe some one of these to be honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Super high skill or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And but from monitoring perspective, we come back as before.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't know how much is enough for each individual.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the only thing you can do is to monitor the practice based on what is your philosophy of coaching or what you think is is useful.
[SPEAKER_03]: But from that, I'm very, I think quality is important, but I still think that quantity is an important role in any sport.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now people move towards doing less and better.
[SPEAKER_03]: but it depends less than what if it's less than the same moderate volume of training I don't think this is going to work but less is better if the quality and it's good because if you are a high leveler you are really training a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, in that situation, even increasing, just a bit may be the thing that induces overtraining or reaching or this kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, when you are at that level, training a bit less and with better quality or optimizing what you're doing actually can make the difference.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at that level,
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that level are very few athletes are at that level.
[SPEAKER_03]: Most of the athletes are even good athletes are still in an area where quantity matters.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not the same thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like when we discuss about injury prevention, improving strength and different population.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, improving strength, I'm sure it can be helpful for several reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: But improving strength in someone that is already strong is different than improving strength in someone that is a week.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, we'll be able to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, first of all, it's much more difficult to improve strength in someone who is ready to strong and second the effects may be different at least in terms of magnitude.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when we generalize finding from the studies, we need also to think about the population.
[SPEAKER_03]: Besides, I'm not saying that you cannot apply
[SPEAKER_03]: studies in other populations in your population, but the entity of the changes may be much different.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can maybe have improvement that are negligible or you cannot even measure these improvements in some populations.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, but for, in general, for from a skill opposition perspective, I still think that the quantity is important.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, because the quality is a very weird concept, it's not easy to understand, because quality movements means to have a standard while there may be a lot of individual differences depending on the individual characteristics.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, it's much more difficult to understand.
[SPEAKER_03]: that to have a reference time for technical whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we will say that all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, well, look, your perfect practice makes perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, for example, in power lifting, which is the, we chairatively call it a sport, and I happen to participate in that activity.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, well, look, you got to have perfect squat form and technique, and I'm like, well, what is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're based on the sport.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some constraints to the squat, for example,
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to get below parallel and you have to start from a locked-out position, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then rack it under your own power.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are many variations within that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And further, if you're saying, well, I'm not talking about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying in your training, you have to squat with perfect for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well, what if I happen to get out a position on the platform?
[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't it nice to have some additional strategies to try to overcome the load?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I make the, you know, there's to your point.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's probably some benefit to like just getting exposed more and more often.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're practicing right, but it doesn't have to be the this rigid model of like only this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you practice?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's well, that's that's actually a very good Example because power lifting weight lifting is where I see a lot of Bit of a mess meaning that
[SPEAKER_03]: No, because I have very, actually, very good friends who are coaches and those who are international athletes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you speak with them or you speak with other, let's say coaches at lower level, these are the one high level, art, the ones that are more aware about individual differences.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't have that fixation with the perfect technique.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they allow, for some individual adjustments, much more than the lower level coaches and athletes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I agree with them, because in the end of the day, you may have an idea of technique, but this can be adjusted by the different individuals that they tend to adapt to their characteristics.
[SPEAKER_03]: They, I mean, I have seen videos of war champions and posted on social media and tons of comments about the bad technique, all these kind of things, I said, what the fuck?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, if this person won the war championship, they won.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's effective because they, by definition, so yeah, yeah, it can be best with still is one of the best in the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: So eventually, this technique is good for the performance, because in the end of the day, what people don't understand is that power lifting weight lifting is a performance based sport.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the end of the day, what matters is how much load you lift.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the more the better, so any strategy that allowed these artists to live more than others allowed them to win or to compete at the high level.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they are not evaluating based on technique, it's not a genetic, you know, with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, rarefries saying oh, this is good.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is bad in the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is why I like because it's very problematic sport.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they have to lift as much as they can.
[SPEAKER_03]: And actually in theory they can use, okay, within some constraint, other variations, any variations of technique.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's okay, but this is the fixation with these, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: Another point, and I don't want to take too much time, but something people don't understand is that elite sport we are working with the survivors.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the survival bias is very important, and you find this problem a lot also in studies.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you compare really targets with other people, you basically are comparing orange with the apples, because they are a selection.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you don't know if they are using a technique that is good for them, you cannot generalize to other individuals, because the one that you see at the top of the pyramid are the one that survived over the years.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's possible that the technique they are using
[SPEAKER_03]: cope with that specific technique that allowed them to live more than others.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this kind of comparisons are very difficult to do and I normally want people don't compare a lead with others because the elite are a very selected population.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's very likely that they are the survival or also bad techniques.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, yeah, present company included.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, because because people they do ask they're like, hey, look, I just do your program.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to just publish the program you're running.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can run it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, financial motivations aside, I'm not sure that what I'm doing is going to work for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the reason why I've been able to persist so long in this sport and achieve some modicum of success.
[SPEAKER_01]: is probably related to things that make me me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't have those same unique characteristics, I would just be setting you up for failure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can't, I can't abide that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's like the other people that I've been competing with for these 15 years, we are far different than the people who started competing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did it for two years and then burnt out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I was created my prototypical power lifter who's going to go be a world beta and persist at the top of sport for years, yep, they respond awesome to resist his training.
[SPEAKER_01]: They gain a lot of muscle mass and a lot of strength.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, they'd have a really robust musculoskeletal system to start with, thick joints, everything else, and they'd have a great work ethic, and they'd also be super resistant to injury, cause like, you need all of those things to survive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, the strongest potential powers to ever, probably, you know, it's gonna be some mix of that, but there's somebody who maybe is potentially, their max-volutional isometric-contractive force is higher.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they can't sustain the training, and so they can't ever sustain that and be at the top of the board.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I still pretty think I completely agree, but training a lot of money all these kind of things should be seen from this perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the context of uncertainty in the video responses or this kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the only thing you can do is to monitor training just to understand whether your program is going in the direction that you plan and that's why what you measure depends on your training program.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's not such a gold measure.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's up to you and people don't accept that.
[SPEAKER_03]: they won't measure and they pretend they're asking me, what do you say?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what you can use, I mean, they're tons of measures.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some are good, some are, maybe not that good, but it really depends.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have designed your training based on time, you measure time.
[SPEAKER_03]: If we, because there are two different kinds of discussions.
[SPEAKER_03]: One is about how we monitor training and the other is how we plan a training.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if I agree with the training, because when I work with teams and sometimes I provide what I think is better to monitor what they are doing,
[SPEAKER_03]: doesn't mean that I agree with what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying, okay, if you want to do that, it's your job, you are paid for that, you are fired, if you fail.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my job is to help you in doing what you want to do without questioning anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you ask me an opinion, I can provide my opinion what I would do or why I don't agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: But in the end of the day, it's a culture decision.
[SPEAKER_03]: So to
[SPEAKER_03]: And I work around coaches.
[SPEAKER_03]: They are the one training athletes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as a sports scientist, I need to help you.
[SPEAKER_03]: The level of help depends on what kind of help you want from me if it's just monitoring or we want to discuss about the strategy you may say I'm doing this because of these reasons I can say okay These reasons make sense these are actually not really supported by evidence so maybe it works, but not for that reason for example
[SPEAKER_03]: And besides, I'm much prefer very elaborated and solid reasoning than the use of weak evidence.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's always my where I separate from a practical perspective, the people I trust and the people I don't trust in in terms of coaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to ask you what's the one thing you want people to take away from this and you just did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a natural.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you don't have a podcast, yeah, maybe you consider it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just all the extra time that you have.
[SPEAKER_03]: I told you I'm a boomer for these things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have this at the top because the manipulation of my sons to buy them all the achievements, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I know that most of the time people don't have for me the youngsters they want.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I can't give the answer and they want, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I hope you're going to tell me how to get stronger, but it turns out we just, I know less now than I started it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, you you I can then you have to train more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm here for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm here for that fun to get to live for more and you survive.
[SPEAKER_03]: You may be stronger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never never spoken.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where can people find you?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know like I'm going to list there's a Google scholar page with all of your publications so I'll link that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any way for people to interface with you on social media or are you a learner?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you post?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm in social media, I'm on X, I'm on blue sky, I'm on social media, but in the last years, I move a bit away from social media.
[SPEAKER_03]: I read post, I look post, I don't interact as much as in the past, because I'm quite,
[SPEAKER_03]: I am Italian, so sometimes I cannot control myself, so I decide to move a bit away and and a joc apartheid also because I found recently it was a bit too toxic as an environment.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I read it just to have an idea of what is happening, but I find more and more difficult to interact.
[SPEAKER_03]: because I am very critical, but I like to have this kind of conversation to have an intellectual opponent.
[SPEAKER_03]: Most of my co-authors and my colleagues are intellectual opponents, but this kind of interaction is becoming more and more difficult, and people get to find it very easily.
[SPEAKER_03]: So just to say, I'm such an media, I don't interact a lot, but I read.
[SPEAKER_03]: Carmen and POST and these kind of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you're out there and you're commented on training load, just know that Dr. and Pillow's series, he's reading your stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's kind of like Santa Claus.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's easy, you know, and he's been naughty, he's when you've been nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll link all of this stuff in the show notes, but really, thank you so much for joining me for the invitation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.