[SPEAKER_05]: So first of all, I would say certification is not like the go to, it will only get, like it's not everything, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: It will only get you to get an interview, but if you get to an interview when you're not able to defend yourself or say what you're able to do, then the certification doesn't mean anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: I always tell people, like,
[SPEAKER_05]: don't saturate your resume with words that you cannot like every word that's on your resume you have to be able to talk about it even if it's like in the you have to be able to talk like every word that's on your resume you have to be able to talk about that because you know I've interviewed I've been on that and where I interview people
[SPEAKER_05]: and I have the resume opening for me and I look for specific terms or keywords or skills and I ask questions about that and it will be like, you know, I haven't done that in six years or you know, like you know that they don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Look, he probably have a security plus, maybe even a security clearance.
[SPEAKER_02]: So nobody taught you how to write poems.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or how to test a security control.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or submit an ATO package.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Chris Alcala, a few years ago, I was in your shoes, qualified on paper, but completely lost when it came to our math.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a degree, I had to search, I had to drive, and when somebody said, how to test an AC2 control, or validate, stick finance, I had no clue what that actually looked like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fast 4 or 5 years, I worked across DOD and federal agencies, late control assessments, written ATO package, and past orders.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I built our Maphacademy to teach you the real world execution.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't cover in certification books, inside I'll show you how to write a poem, and don't get fast back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Test and validate security controls.
[SPEAKER_02]: Translate tech jargon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Navigate niss 853.
[SPEAKER_02]: and RMF with confidence.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're in IT support in the government systems or stuck on the edge of sub security, this is your way.
[SPEAKER_02]: The people who go through my training don't just get hired.
[SPEAKER_02]: They hit the ground running because they practice the work before they won.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go to RMF Academy.io and let's get the work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome everybody to another edition of the Tech Work podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am your host Chris Ockpala.
[SPEAKER_02]: I work in the Gov Tech Space been doing it for about five years and I love the tech
[SPEAKER_02]: And in today's podcast, we have a great, great guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: His name is Kevin Mookham.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's the founder of CyberMook.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's also a CSSP.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been working in cybersecurity space, educating a lot of people, guiding people to do their projects.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's been helping over 100 people get into cybersecurity.
[SPEAKER_02]: in general.
[SPEAKER_02]: And without further ado, Kevin, how you doing, brother?
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm leaving very well, brother.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's nice to meet you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nice to meet you, Dave.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now we've been kind of off and on about, you know, the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad that we are able to connect the, the do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm happy, you know, we've been talking to your team.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to have you on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm now appreciate you coming down to my neck and the woods.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, color from Atlanta being on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an honor for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_05]: I appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so how did you day gone?
[SPEAKER_05]: Very well.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's good to be in Maryland to visit the city.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was at the mall.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've been busy with family.
[SPEAKER_05]: And now we cheer with so good.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, because you told me you was only here for school.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said you was on a mission.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was on one mission.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I got back at my service here.
[SPEAKER_05]: There was four years ago.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I haven't been back.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've only been back once.
[SPEAKER_05]: And this is my second time in a long time.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's good to be back in the capital.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and to, and I know you've been on various podcasts, I know you're on, uh, you're on, uh, you're going to be in that side, uh, uh, I, uh, I figured, if you can't seem to, can I've been on Hacker Proo, if you can think and if you're there, you're on Techwork now.
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, I'm going to take one.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, tell a little audience, just a brief summary of who you are, so they can get to know you.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so my name is Kevin Mukham.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm a senior cybersecurity analyst at the Fortune 500 company, and I also founded CyberMook two and a half years ago.
[SPEAKER_05]: I am a CSP certified, I have a Master's degree in cybersecurity as a train more than a hundred people in cybersecurity in like two years.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've consulted for multiple organizations, and I think professionally that's it, and yeah, that's a little bit about myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: You now only coach the 100 people.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got them certifications.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think you said you had a 98% Yeah, so with like 98 so well, basically only wants to then didn't pass and they didn't pass because of technical issues with the computer, not because they actually filled at the field score.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's just computer data, then they weren't able to.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's amazing because to be able to teach people, you know, teaching people, I've learned to teach people, teaching people are like children.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the Bible talks about that, you know, sometimes you've got to really come up with things that kind of get them in that sense and to get that high-up of percentage that shows that you and your team are very dedicated care about what they do and doing what they have to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're going to get to that tour as we're a little later on in the podcast, you know, I really want to discuss with you like these are some extreme times right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got, for me, I work in a government space.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're wiping out whole contracts out here.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, everything's changing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's like Thanos.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanos just snapped everything away.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what that?
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, everybody's getting it to take.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got people that's an IT.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to transition to cyber.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it's still a viable source again as I'm scared?
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, I think it still is, and the economy has always been sinusoidal.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, this is, this is how the load times, but it's going to go back up.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's just like, I like to think of it like the stock market.
[SPEAKER_05]: When the Bitcoin goes down, do you take out your money or do you buy the deep, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: So right now investing your skills, buying your skills, learn new skills, you know, if it's like,
[SPEAKER_05]: to vulnerability, get into that learnness if it's a risk management, get some work, do some audit.
[SPEAKER_05]: If it's cloud, get do some work.
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of content is free right now or available on the internet.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are a lot of tools on the internet right now that you can use.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, buy the deep on your skills, because you will get back up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I agree with you on that because like I mean it's so right so basically cyber analysts do a lot of GRC stuff like with GRC right now it's become in more technical yeah I do like with a lot of people that's an IT they're more technical they do that but originally with GRC it used to be just you do one thing but I've noticed that you got to learn
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you've got to learn a little bit.
[SPEAKER_05]: Networking and all that, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's one thing that you should tell my students and I tell my students is like, if you want to get into GRC, it doesn't mean you should only know risk management.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because how are you going to tell an organization or a team that they need to do better encryption if you don't know what encryption is, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Or different technologies.
[SPEAKER_05]: So in our program, for example, we have GRC, but you also have networking and cloud and vulnerability and more
[SPEAKER_05]: Even if you want to focus on GRC, you have to know all that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's important and even as you know, to have all the skillset to work with different teams, different organizations, and... Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, even as you said, like the cloud, like we're in a government space.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're still hiring for a straight RMF, but the thing is the cloud.
[SPEAKER_02]: You learn the cloud, I don't care if you just get the certification.
[SPEAKER_02]: As long as you know something about the cloud, you want to always have a job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then too, I was talking to this guy on LinkedIn today.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was telling me like, he works, you know, he does a government contract on for his self.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was telling me how he's working with a client about creating their documentation.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he did, he just went on the AI frame where they already have and used it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, they know everything, but you got to kind of guide your social bases and stay on the trending topics.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and also, it's a good point you're bringing about the cloud.
[SPEAKER_05]: The cloud is also great because it kind of covers a lot of topics.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, it has IAM, it has firewalls, which you carry the group for instance.
[SPEAKER_05]: It has a virtual machines, it has networking, it has more.
[SPEAKER_05]: So,
[SPEAKER_05]: Learning the cloud, you're also kind of like learning a lot, like a little bit of everything and that's also a great A great tool to learn.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then also to like you know getting that experience to you got to go create a VM Like what I did my master's program actually had to create a VM like I know how to I know how to I do it on my own Yeah, yeah, you can learn you can try make make it scalable.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so okay, so you basically saying like so for us and even people that's in the field, you got to adapt to whatever they're saying definitely Basically constantly investing your skills no matter how advanced you are like how skilled you are There's always room for learning always rooms to learn more investing your skills
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so, hey, don't be afraid to drop that down.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I will say is a lot of people don't want to adapt their skills, they don't want to learn, and you know in our field, you can't stay tagged, stack, you can stay a little bit stagnant.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I will actually like is if you're not able to adapt, you're not able to learn skills that cyber security for you, I will lean towards the, the know, you know,
[SPEAKER_05]: you have to constantly learn.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've trained people who were over 50-60 years old and even people have worked with, I've seen people who have been in the field for a long time, go and learn in your skill.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because the tech is constantly evolving.
[SPEAKER_05]: The world is constantly evolving.
[SPEAKER_05]: In the early 2000s, in our homes, we only had a desktop computer we internet.
[SPEAKER_05]: In the early 2010s, computers and smartphones.
[SPEAKER_05]: In the late 2010s, computers, smartphones, and smartphones we Netflix and Roku and all that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And now, everything is smart.
[SPEAKER_05]: Smart, freezes, smart, ovens, or share and drivers connected to the internet.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hey, Alexa, light will turn on.
[SPEAKER_05]: So tech is constantly evolving and cybersecurity has to follow that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And people, so you have to learn because if you don't move forward with technology, you will be left behind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm a play devil's advocate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you, I'm a play devil's advocate.
[SPEAKER_02]: What if it is, you can say it is very one too because we are, as a homeless society, we're going technical.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to get to a point, we're not going to be talking each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be mind talking each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get a chance out there, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's what happens with Elon Musk rubbers.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, they want to represent human, but I still feel like no matter no matter how
[SPEAKER_02]: You know advance check gets the human will always have the the last word Yeah, yeah, because it's getting to the point now You can just inject some in your brain and they don't start when you sleep you'll get ads I'm like it's cybermoop Well, okay, so yeah, so like when somebody's trying to get into cyber security I know we're both in the same industry.
[SPEAKER_02]: We both help people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think
[SPEAKER_02]: The first step I kind of mean tours of getting to cyber security is what do you there's a degree of degree like do you need know what you need to do first?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely it's it's a little bit like you know
[SPEAKER_05]: You cannot go to your first basketball practice with a soccer ball, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: So you need to know what cybersecurity is all about.
[SPEAKER_05]: You need to do your research, like, you know, what cybersecurity is all about?
[SPEAKER_05]: What is, because there is this misconception.
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people think it's hacking and coding only.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then when I tell some people, no cybersecurity is wide, and you can go and write policies or review frameworks or documentation, and you never have to write one line of code.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it's important to know what it is all about cybersecurity.
[SPEAKER_05]: Is it something that could interest me?
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you start learning what skills are required, obviously technical skills, but also communication skills.
[SPEAKER_05]: Are you good verbally?
[SPEAKER_05]: Can you look at a piece of data and transmit it to a non-technical audience?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are you good written communication?
[SPEAKER_05]: Can you write reports?
[SPEAKER_05]: Can you present it to
[SPEAKER_05]: to executive and senior management, analytical skills.
[SPEAKER_05]: Can you look at the large set of data and be like, there's something wrong at this level.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, logs, analyze logs, problem-solving skills, in general, like, even in your personal life, can you solve problems if something goes wrong?
[SPEAKER_05]: So, all that you have to know that before you get into the field, you have to know all those, and then start looking at the skills that you need to succeed in the field, and yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because like when I first got in the field, I was breaking down like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what their platform.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought IT inside were the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, IT's a whole different piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't plot anything hacker, you know, I'm sorry, pen tester, cyber analyst, things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I started to do to kind of adapt like what do you whatever these roles?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not to look him up and I'm glad thank you for these podcasts Yeah, I didn't know what role was what what so like what would you recommend for somebody to look with the role is and then to How would you pick what is it but how do you pick a role for somebody?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you go a role based on technical?
[SPEAKER_02]: Management like how do how would you go about that?
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a great question, and that's why I'll briefly talk a little bit about our course just to show you how we decide that, so our course is divided into multiple modules.
[SPEAKER_05]: First we have GRC Risk Management, which is less technical, more documentation, then we have networking, which is a little bit more analyzing logs, and then we have Cloud and IAM, and we have Ethical Hacking.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, based on those different modules, that's when we see the aptitudes of the students and how, you know, what they lean more towards, and also we have a lot of inner prep classes, and there we see, you know, which kind of questions they lean more towards.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it's all about like, personally, like, do you, you know, what do you like more, you know, what do you feel more of?
[SPEAKER_05]: Some people,
[SPEAKER_05]: don't like documentation, don't like reading, they don't like research, so they won't be in the GRC space, but maybe more in networking, where they're like numbers, they're like analysis, and others, they like documentation, they like research, they like reports, they like meetings, and they can be more towards GRC.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it really depends on, you know, from person to person, it changes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, good person, and then like aptitude, so that would you talk about with your program?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: you kind of go off it with aptitudes of daps to each person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like for me, like when I did RMF, I'm not a people person.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have doubted it to be a people person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think people like me, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm doubted it to that position, meaning, you know, and that's the reason I'm able to do this podcast because of the skills I've earned.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now I don't have to know if I can do technical.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've got to kind of force myself in that to see if I can even do technical.
[SPEAKER_02]: So now I get what you're saying on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because a lot of people are like, is there a test?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and I always told people, whoever crazy I'm with a test that can pick when you need to go inside or date, that's a little you're million dollar business.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tried it, but thank you much work.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, go ahead and take it, and I'll give you some.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not that for you, but that's all you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just charge the dollars of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You get a million people to take it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a million dollars.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so okay, so we got that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got to figure out what you need to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: We figured that okay now Okay, and we're gonna pretend throughout this whole podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna kind of pretend I'm gonna be that person trying to figure out what I'm trying to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so okay, so I figured out hey I'm Chris.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to get into cyber.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I want to get into I'm just gonna say risk management Okay, so now I know what I want to do the next step is like for people in general ending for you know
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you figure out what serves?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody thinks, I know so many people would like ten serves, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a scissors, and I don't think people really understand.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can get just get the security plus and be good, like, how would you find out what's certain you need?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so first of all, I would say certification is not like the go-to.
[SPEAKER_05]: It will only get, like it's not everything, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: It will only get you to get an interview.
[SPEAKER_05]: But if you get to an interview and you're not able to defend yourself or say what you're able to do, then the certification doesn't mean anything.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, so I would say one of the certifications I'd like to recommend.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's also because cyber-mocus partner with Comtea is a security plus.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the reason is because it gives you like a really broad understanding of terms.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's true it's only theoretical, but it gives you a broad understanding of terms of
[SPEAKER_05]: It has a mismanagement part, it has networking part, it has a good understanding, so like entry level, you get to know like everything, we also do like hands-on training that we will talk about later.
[SPEAKER_05]: And also, you need to do a lot of projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: So do a lot of projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: When we train, we always like in our risk management program, for instance, we have things like control assessment, audit and compliance,
[SPEAKER_05]: He passed his men, CMMC, Fedram, all those, and we train students for that, first of all, and then we tell them, like, do you have a friend who has their organization on the business, go and do their audit for free?
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, they'll be happy to have like a technical audit for free, after we've done that in class, and you're also learning while doing.
[SPEAKER_05]: So for me, most importantly, is the skills and the experience.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, what can you do, what have you done?
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I have these skills, what can you do?
[SPEAKER_05]: Experience what have you done?
[SPEAKER_05]: And when you get to an interview, you can defend yourself.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can say, I have done this.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm able to do this.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm able to get your compliance from 60% to 95%.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, because like even with me, like when I first got into tech, when I was doing interviews, I would just do a IT interview, right, for help this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they'll ask me all these questions, and I ain't no nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just put stuff on my resume, so like even when I did RML, I put stuff on my resume, and they just asked me on these questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you got to kind of, I would say that knowing the actual skills is more important because if you don't know, like with me, I can talk to many, many people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can know if you don't know your stuff, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, doing projects, and I'm so good.
[SPEAKER_05]: I always tell people, like, don't saturate your resume with words that you cannot like, every word that's on your resume, you have to be able to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Even if it's like, in the, you have to be able to talk, like, every word that's on your resume, you have to be able to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because, you know, I've interviewed, I've been on that and where I interview people.
[SPEAKER_05]: and I have the resume opening for me and I look for specific terms or keywords or skills and I ask a question about it and it'll be like, you know, I haven't done that in six years or you know, like you know that they don't know, you know, and it's very easy to spot that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I tell somebody a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember one time I put red head on my resume and the basic of the lady was still going to hire me, but I was like, man, the way she was demeaning me on this, I said, I can't really do the job, but she said, she said, and this is a, even though it wasn't a good interview, the best advice I got for her if you put on your resume, don't put anything that you can't defend.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And today's day I would never, even my boy, I say he put a mask as I said, bro, you don't got no mask as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: But where you put a mask is the grill and he said, hey, that's it, but you're gonna get nothing, though.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, you don't take any old people to actually got a mask.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like myself, you're bad, bro.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you're good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so like certification is okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So work on your experience and then get the search later, depending on what career you want to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: Say for example, network and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you kind of touched in on skills, hands on skills you learn.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I wanted to ask something as well, it's like, I have something, you need to have a passion for whatever you're going to learn.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like you need to have a passion for it, to build a passion for it, because it's going to get hard.
[SPEAKER_05]: Whatever job you choose, it's going to get hard.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's where that passion comes into, you know, take it without the hard part.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because,
[SPEAKER_05]: Imagine someone deciding to become a doctor and at some point it becomes stressful and they're like, I don't like this job.
[SPEAKER_05]: But you know, you have to heal people.
[SPEAKER_05]: You have to, you know, you are the safety net.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, and it's the same thing in every field.
[SPEAKER_05]: I remember, because my bachelor's degree was in electrical engineering technology, with a minor in computer science, because I've always loved computers.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, smart man.
[SPEAKER_05]: But then I went after my bachelor's, I started working before getting to him.
[SPEAKER_05]: And every day I was going to work in
[SPEAKER_05]: I was not happy.
[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't like electrical engineering.
[SPEAKER_05]: I only did it because I was good at circuits, at math, at physics, that I didn't like electrical engineering.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I was going to work every day like, you know, and then eventually I got my master's in cyber.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I don't even feel like I'm working.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't feel the pressure because I have so much passion for it.
[SPEAKER_05]: So even when it gets hard, I think of solutions.
[SPEAKER_05]: I look for solutions, alternative methods.
[SPEAKER_05]: I like when, you know, in my masters, one of my projects was to find six flags in the VM, like, you know, open ports and some stuff like that, like, on hash, password and things like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I love that because, you know, it takes a few days and...
[SPEAKER_05]: you're like looking for things, you're like there on their and curly linux, searching for things, and I love that, you know.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if you don't have a passion for what you're getting into, if you just do it because you know, you heard that there's money in it, and all that, then you will easily get frustrated when things go around.
[SPEAKER_05]: So passion definitely is, you know, tops up all there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe, too, sometimes you can manage your fracture or passion or night.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you can develop passion over time, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because let me tell you a story for myself, it's like, when I was trying, when I was in cyber, I don't want to quit, I was making 75K.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was stressful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm hearing all these people making all this money.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, how do you feel when they be like, oh, you make a 75K?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm going through hell at the job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, man, I'm out of quit this joint.
[SPEAKER_02]: But,
[SPEAKER_02]: over time you get a passion you'd be like so you you you want to secure the system you want to secure you want to make sure nobody is even getting there so eventually I foresee for myself I eventually develop a passion into the point now I just I just be at home looking up CMMC or looking you did you hear about the order the way I was just did the AI order or something like that when basically they're trying to mandate there's regulations and things with AI and they're putting out money out there for everything
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not fine did I put it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just be doing research because it's like knowing this stuff now Remember with ADWS first came out.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, oh, yeah, everybody was getting paid Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so early anybody could get anything and it's and it's we are only of the start of AI It's it's it's on an exponential curve.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's it's only going to go up
[SPEAKER_05]: And you see the things that we were able to do right now with AI when we were only on the start.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm kind of like impressed and scared about what was coming next because yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get to that low later because I definitely want to touch on AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so we know what we want to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got the stairs in the training.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: The next skills.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the skills.
[SPEAKER_02]: How would I get these skills when I go to school?
[SPEAKER_02]: Should I just practice on my own?
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do I even show these skills when would you do?
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's a great question.
[SPEAKER_05]: So they're like, I'll say like, depending on finances, school is a good, you know, bachelor's and masters.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like a good way to get into the field because you get the skills, you get like projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: And in other ways, you do home projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are some platforms like TriHackMe, which have free training programs.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can learn how to use the terminal, learn how to write network commands, basic Linux commands.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can learn tools like Metasploit, learn tools like Burpsuit, like Nesis, like a lot of tools just and TriHackMe.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know how far their free version goes, but it's even worth it to pay to learn.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're investing on yourself.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we talk about certifications, you know, in our course, in our program, we do all that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we have like theory training, we have hands-on training, everything we teach.
[SPEAKER_05]: comes with a hands-on.
[SPEAKER_05]: So if we teach SSH, you learn SSH.
[SPEAKER_05]: You actually SSH into another computer.
[SPEAKER_05]: If we teach firewalls, you actually configure firewalls.
[SPEAKER_05]: You have W and IP tables and some other firewalls.
[SPEAKER_05]: We teach IPS IDS, and we have hands-on on snort.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we do snort.
[SPEAKER_05]: We have other tools, nesses, the Kali Linux terminal, Metasploit, Octa, AWS Azure, and me.
[SPEAKER_05]: Sorry?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, in our I am program and we installed those on our students computers with VMs, we have pre-installed VMs.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's very important to not only know them but apply them.
[SPEAKER_05]: And one thing I always tell students is like, don't only come and learn anything class.
[SPEAKER_05]: give yourself a realistic schedule.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you say 30 minutes per day, then follow the B-consistent.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you say one hour per day, B-consistent.
[SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't matter, you can go in and just interpret these questions or just sign on your colleague and do some basic comments, but at least the mind and the hands have to have that muscle memory to want to learn, to want to do all that.
[SPEAKER_05]: It has to come from you.
[SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't have to be like,
[SPEAKER_05]: Kevin told me to go and study.
[SPEAKER_05]: You have to come from the one that you got to want.
[SPEAKER_02]: No one is going to want it for you.
[SPEAKER_05]: No one is going to want it for you.
[SPEAKER_05]: I cannot keep reminding you to work on your resume or apply to specific jobs or revise your exercise because at the end of the day it's going to be you in front of that interviewer or in that job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I would tell you like this, the Lord has blessed me to talk to some amazing people in all fields.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the people that are at the top at all fields that they do, whether it's video editing, whether it's politicians, whether it's system engineers.
[SPEAKER_02]: The one thing I would tell you about them, they always just do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they just build different.
[SPEAKER_02]: They might not have a life, they might not have a life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, they might not even take those houses.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to do that work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so they need to go for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Go for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't want to kind of be devil's advocate to you because a lot of people that I talk to they tell me the same thing they'll do all this stuff right okay you told me about you know octa SSH you know I've done all that stuff but for my experience I didn't help me get a job so do you saying like do do that specifically for jobs that you're trying to get into or for whatever career like for example say I'm trying to get into GRC or
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, no, yeah, you focus on projects focused on GRC and RMF.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, I was saying that to say, like, you have to be ready when the time comes.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you prepare yourself before it to be ready when the time comes.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that, and I want things to do all that, but I was just giving some examples, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, if it's networking, you know, focus on all those, if it's the GRC focus on all those.
[SPEAKER_05]: And also, this is also so that, like, when you get to an interview, you have done that, you know, not only have you heard about that,
[SPEAKER_05]: or you didn't just read the definition of pass certification because certifications are very much theoretical.
[SPEAKER_05]: But you have done that, you know, you have your home lab, and your little computer, your second monitor, maybe another device you're able to assess from one into the other, all those.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that when you get into an interview, you can talk about why it's bad to have ports when it's too open or things like that, not only like mentioning that, but once you've done something yourself, it's very hard to forget, because I've seen people go to interviews and try to repeat things like we teach Splunk, we give them some incident response logs and some network logs and firewall logs, so that when they get to interviews,
[SPEAKER_05]: They did it, you know, they don't need someone to tell them if they ask you this question said he did, no you did it, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because like you know me and my job by sometimes I go to my job and sometimes you might not, you might not work with somebody that understands that you know your job.
[SPEAKER_02]: So with somebody said something, you'd be like, and I don't make sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: People like I kindly, highly advise you go to opposite way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you know you already know it's going to go to bed through it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you see it happening like,
[SPEAKER_02]: And I told you so, but I get it, once you've done it, you know, because like, even with people say that they don't like to fail.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you fail, I actually like to fail.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know I ain't going to do it again.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I was, you know, I like this quote from Michael Jordan, like we're talking about, who said, like,
[SPEAKER_05]: He's missed more than, I think, 40,000 or 50,000 shots in his career.
[SPEAKER_05]: The people who remember him for the 36,000 or however many points he made in his career, you know, like, it's okay to fail, but it's just not okay to give up.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, just keep going, go for it, go for it.
[SPEAKER_05]: And another very important point I don't know if you were going to touch that is networking.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, like, that's...
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to say probably the most important, because you can know everything, but if you just stay in your room, then no one will know that you know all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we talk about getting the skills, getting the knowledge, you're starting to projects.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, you want to adapt to a resume, you know, later on part.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so where would I find it a pop of jobs?
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's, I will say, two answers online and in person, you know, online is like just go out there, Google search, LinkedIn search, look for conferences, look for upcoming tech conferences, look for go-to event, even bright, look for tech events, meetups, look for tech events, upcoming, like there are a lot of board and platforms like that where you can, you can find upcoming tech events,
[SPEAKER_05]: be on the lookout, reach out on LinkedIn, connect with people on LinkedIn, reach out DM people.
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people will not respond, but focus on those who respond.
[SPEAKER_05]: And in person, same thing, there are a lot of take conferences in multiple cities, which are even free.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, you go out there, be ready to talk, you know, be ready to answer the question, tell me about yourself or what your skills are.
[SPEAKER_05]: You go out there, you talk to people.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, you need to focus on that one person who will say yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are many people who ignore, they will not respond to your messages.
[SPEAKER_05]: They will, that you need that one person who will listen to you.
[SPEAKER_05]: So go out there and network talk to friends who are really in their organizations.
[SPEAKER_05]: Some might not help but focus on those who help and just build like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a, the economy is very tough right now.
[SPEAKER_05]: But we have to, we have to, you know, tough enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what I would tell people too is you're going to go and indeed, indeed, for one thing people don't know about indeed costs a lot of money to put a job on the U.D.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not no fake jobs on there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So go and eat, you know, check on the meat thing, but I mean, here's a lot of fake jobs on there.
[SPEAKER_02]: For people that's in the government space, centers.gov.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a dice is another good website, so there's also a deal.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, dice, glass door, lensa, gebo, indeed, monster, just, I know it's very time-consuming to upload, to post profile on there.
[SPEAKER_05]: I also, the students, create a profile with your name, everything, education, you keep writing the same things, copying from your resume and paste.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's time consuming, I understand, it can be, but just do it once and then push your resume on there and on all those and then you keep, you know, from time to time you apply, sometimes requires go over there, they filter by keywords and by skills and they can reach out to you.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, it's time consuming, but you are investing on your future.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so job boards right now are kind of dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I will just, I'm just listening because we both know, but we both know like Networking right now is the key to get a job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like literally, it's personal brand base.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like even with me, I post on LinkedIn.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I get most of my his people just reach out to me on LinkedIn.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not in a plan anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, in case I'm happy, you know, so
[SPEAKER_02]: How would you go about straight building your net where I know you talked about something that I just want to name a couple of conferences You got a text giving you got a black and tech you got a lot of people Afro tech so in a lot of you can do volunteer work for free exactly get in for free or I'm in a government space already you can get in for free or have you done people work exactly exactly Yeah, for those who already have a job they're a job can be for you.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can volunteer
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you can go out there, even during those conferences, if it's too expensive and you cannot access the conference, there are usually some annex conferences around, like some small, some small, exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are usually some annex conferences, some annex platforms where you can go, you can attend, then you can, you know, you network, you share your experience, you change your, you give your resume,
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of, you know, out of, if you talk to 50 people, probably like 40 or 45 will not help or not follow up, but there are still some good people out there and you, you know, go with a certain energy, go with an open energy, a welcoming energy, a humble energy, you know, someone who is willing to learn someone who is willing to adapt, willing to, to, you know, go towards others and there is no secret recipe to it, you know, what works for one, might not work for another, but at least give yourself the chance to succeed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and go in at a different way.
[SPEAKER_02]: This don't go straight there and say, hey, I need you to help me get in the cyber.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like for me, I got a book on how to gain to cyber.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to read that book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I got a book or how to get an RMF.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're all free books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but the thing is we will get my attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I've done this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I've done this, what am I missing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I want to know what you already done.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's what get me out of tears.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I want to talk to you, network with you, that's what I kind of want to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how can we help each other?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, too, it's helping me get knowledge also.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and like I said earlier, like, even though right now it's hard because the economy stuff, like I said by the deep right now, you know, work on yourself, keep networking, don't give up.
[SPEAKER_05]: As bad as it is, I still know some people who are able to get jobs in the recent weeks, like in the last month, we've had two students get jobs and all of them pass all of them from the promo, pass their certifications, but two students get jobs.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now it's very hard
[SPEAKER_05]: We have a third-party program where we apply for up to a thousand jobs for students and applying on multiple boards and show them the jobs where we apply to.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's very hard, it's very tough, especially like you mentioned in this economy, but we have to tighten the belt and keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you really do, so, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I got it, so, okay, and also too, what do you think about posting projects on LinkedIn or talking about your journey on LinkedIn?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that would attract people to you?
[SPEAKER_05]: I think so, it's something I personally did.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I did penetration testing projects, cloud projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: That was when I was in college during my master's.
[SPEAKER_05]: I did a digital forensics and incident response projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: I had to go into, I think it was a Linux
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Cali Linux?
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, it wasn't Cali.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was a swift shift.
[SPEAKER_05]: I forgot it's a specific operating system and I had to do some investigations to find malware and to find what someone had installed.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I posted that on my LinkedIn in the article, so definitely post, it cannot hurt you.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, post on LinkedIn, post on GitHub, post on medium, just post it, you know, just put yourself out there.
[SPEAKER_05]: because it's a little bit like marketing.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can have the best product in the world, but if you don't tell the world about it, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because they were me, I might not be the best SO, you know, I might not.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some people that have to straight dogs on them, but at least I'm posting some and they know I'm the only person that's talking about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I've known some of the best, like, you know, hackers, pen testers, technical, whatever.
[SPEAKER_05]: But if you're only doing it from your room and you want a job for it, then show what you're able to get people out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a couple big YouTubers, I follow, not even YouTubers, professionals that I follow.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's how they get a lot of jobs, they just post their cyber projects, literally, so, you know, to the audience, make sure you post their projects, everything else.
[SPEAKER_05]: And to the audience and even to like a broader audience, I have some friends who like, they do like businesses.
[SPEAKER_05]: One of my friends does like bakery and other one does like hair and all those and I tell them like post yourself on your stuff on TikTok on Instagram on social media You don't know which video is going to blow up, you know, but once that blows up You might even have to rent a bigger space to you know, so go out there and show your work It doesn't matter if you don't get views or if you don't get because Just you don't know which of your videos or which one of your posts is going to blow up out there and who who is going to reach here
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's why I'm not afraid like you and I had better first started.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got this video on TikTok I think it's like 200,000 views and I'm like, I didn't even know that dude was going to I don't know why that goes back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so okay, so we know a job we want to do, we got the skills, we network it, we know where to apply, and we know where to do our projects, so people can know us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we talk about resume like how we work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, good resume.
[SPEAKER_05]: Good resume.
[SPEAKER_05]: I like to separate into three parts.
[SPEAKER_05]: Who are you, what can you do and what have you done?
[SPEAKER_05]: So the who are you is like your name, where you went to school, where you worked, your information, how they can reach out to you.
[SPEAKER_05]: The what can you do is your skills.
[SPEAKER_05]: What's in your skillset, what experience can you do, what certifications can you have, and then what have you done?
[SPEAKER_05]: What have you done is like,
[SPEAKER_05]: What have you accomplished, where you worked so far, you know, you've helped compliance go up like this, you've remediated this number of systems, you've done this and that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, break down your resume to the point where it's easily legible by someone at the other end.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because the truth is that,
[SPEAKER_05]: No one really takes every one's resume and reads every line.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I've been on the other side where we were reviewing candidates resumes and it goes very, very fast because there are so many resumes.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you want to make sure that once you pick up a resume, it's clear what you're looking for.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's very much legible.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's very understandable and you know, that's why it's very important to professional summary.
[SPEAKER_05]: I typically tell students like,
[SPEAKER_05]: your professional summary and it's also an advice that I had received from a recruiter breaking down into three bullet points.
[SPEAKER_05]: First point is like, I'm a cybersecurity professional with six plus years of experience, something like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Second point is like, as experts in risk management and more particularly in this framework, and this framework.
[SPEAKER_05]: And third is like, in my career, I've worked with like,
[SPEAKER_05]: public organizations and private, government and private, and I did this, this, this and that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And from there, just from that professional resume, professional summary, I know exactly what's to expect from the rest of the resume.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's very important to have a solid and clear resume.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, none of those, because I've seen some resumes with diagrams and colors and flowers, and no one cares about the beauty, you know, where it's like, is it clear?
[SPEAKER_05]: Can it, in five seconds, can I quickly grasp who you are,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it's what I'm learning to when I when I did help people with resumes like you got a in the resumes now low different because you got to kind of show them how you can help in the future like help them yeah like what have you done like have you were mediated how you lower the risk yeah have you solved the problem exactly you know even like if I'm doing it interview now
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy at my job, but if I was doing it interview now, if I was doing interview I would just tell them hey I see these gaps I'm not I'm not I'm interviewing them at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would like I see these gaps This is how I can help you this will help your company and it will make out when more money So that's how I'm I'm basically that's how I would do it
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, and been two for a person that don't have experience, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I get you're kind of talking about somebody that has experience, and I was there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have no experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: How would you put that in with no experience?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you can't really fit, but what would you do?
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say projects, yeah, I would say if you have no experience at all, then definitely projects.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, I know that today in the cyber field, it's very hard if you don't have experience and entry-level jobs are rare, like very much rare, but then look for internships.
[SPEAKER_05]: look for internships and want to get an internship is very easy for them to extend your your, or give you a full-time contract.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because to be honest, internships is really much about, are you, can you fit in the team?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are you adaptable?
[SPEAKER_05]: Because,
[SPEAKER_05]: I believe that a lot of things can be learned.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, even if you don't, in the internship, even if you haven't learned that in school, you can quickly get up to speed and then they'll take you in the team.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's how I started working at Deloitte a few years ago.
[SPEAKER_05]: I started as an intern, and then, before the internship even ended, the extended offer, I honestly think it was mostly because of my likeability, like going out to every person in the team and just being there, and
[SPEAKER_05]: Rather than me being an expert or no-it-all or whatever, I think it's that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So look for internships, look for help, help the roles, look for entry-level roles.
[SPEAKER_05]: Again, like we mentioned, it's hard at this time.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's extremely hard.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but just keep pushing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take one break.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take one, how long was that?
[SPEAKER_00]: How long was that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so like, okay, so you've done all these things, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So how would you prepare for an interview?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because like, when you're going into interviews, like, I've done that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't know what question they come in at you with.
[SPEAKER_02]: What you're going to do?
[SPEAKER_02]: So how would you prepare?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you prepare your students?
[SPEAKER_05]: This is a good question.
[SPEAKER_05]: So first, to prepare for an interview,
[SPEAKER_05]: You have to prepare for fonts creating calls before, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, fonts creating is like the call you and ask you are interested by this role.
[SPEAKER_05]: What do you do currently, what's your intended salary?
[SPEAKER_05]: You have to be prepared for that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So at time, we have like a module for interview prep.
[SPEAKER_05]: We have like fonts creating questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: Be a virtual interview prep, technical interview prep, and general interview questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: fonts creating interview when general is like,
[SPEAKER_05]: Tell me about yourself.
[SPEAKER_05]: That question will always come no matter the interview.
[SPEAKER_05]: No matter if it's for like a seven-dollar an hour job Or if it's like to be the president of the US you will always get that question.
[SPEAKER_05]: Tell me about yourself You have to be prepared for that so you use like a sibling a significant other a partner with friend You get in front of them and you practice that response with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have a question with that tell me about yourself Like a lot of people will literally tell you about yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know Yeah, like agache Did they really care about that?
[SPEAKER_05]: No, okay because
[SPEAKER_05]: Being from the other side, you know, you can interview a lot of people in one day and it can be.
[SPEAKER_05]: You want people to go straight to the point.
[SPEAKER_05]: Fifty seconds to one minute answers.
[SPEAKER_05]: Straight to the point and I don't mean to talk like a robot, but you know, like straight to the point and relevance and don't tell me your life story.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've interviewed someone with whom, like we were two interviewers, so we asked to tell me about yourself.
[SPEAKER_05]: He talked for six minutes.
[SPEAKER_05]: Six minutes and so we were DMing each other on teams with the co-interview where it was like,
[SPEAKER_05]: I used to, following, I was like, I don't, you know, I'm not following, because you know, so I typically tell students like 50 seconds to like 70 seconds, you know, here or there, depending on your experience, you can be more depending on your career, and I like to tell people be chronological, so that it's easy to follow.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you can start with like education, then your different roles, and what you achieved, your different roles, and what's coming next, you know, what you're looking forward to.
[SPEAKER_05]: So there are different ways to answer.
[SPEAKER_05]: So tell me about yourself, why do you want to join us?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's also a very important question.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you can land a job or advance in the interview just because of that question.
[SPEAKER_05]: A few years ago, I interviewed for Delta Airlines.
[SPEAKER_05]: That was maybe like five or six years ago.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it was for a role, a vulnerability role, for qualities, to use qualities.
[SPEAKER_02]: For qualities, big one.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm telling you, I researched the company before it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like I researched everything.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I told them, you know,
[SPEAKER_05]: The exercise plan to reduce carbon emission by an investing I think was like a billion dollars something by 2030 and this is the kind of value that I'm looking for.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I read this interview by the chief information officer saying that they wanted to, so I told them what was currently in the news from the other airlines and I had also prayed for the technical stuff and you know, so yeah, coming back to your question, preparing
[SPEAKER_05]: What do you do at your current role in send the in send the salary?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are you ready to relocate all that be ready to answer those then be a Viral questions You know who are you can you fit in the team can you like work on the pressure on the stress because behavioral questions It's really to see how you react when you don't understand the task that was given to you or if you're stressed or if there's something going on in your life And you have to go to work or you made a mistake.
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you react to all that can you fit in the team can we trust you by assigning you this work that's behavioral interview
[SPEAKER_05]: And then technical interview, obviously, you know for any role technical interviews like you know the content, you know what you're coming to learn.
[SPEAKER_05]: So preparing for all those?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I also saw students don't only come in preparing class, like going from the mirror, tell me about yourself, answer that question from the mirror, answer it in front of the camera, you know, significant or the partner, friend, parent, sibling, whatever, practice that with them.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the point where when you get to an interview, it just flows, you know, you're not lying, you're not, you know, you're not taking too much, you just flows.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because even with that, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: When I interview guests on the podcast, nine times a day 10, I've done my research to the point where I can tell, and when you tell people about your company yourself, it builds camaraderie, you know, and that's how you do an interview.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like even when I used to be a ticket salesman,
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to work for big bus tours, but before you even got the job, you had to take a test and just explain to them what the company is.
[SPEAKER_02]: How can I sell you something?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you got to do your research on companies, even though I do research now, I can say, oh yeah, I was founded in 1999.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't known it in a family in 1999.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's how I got my very first job in electrical engineering.
[SPEAKER_05]: The company was Alison Smith.
[SPEAKER_05]: I remember my interview, I had like, it was before the remote and all that, so I had a piece of
[SPEAKER_05]: And I told them the company was funny in 1940 this and it was like the first year was this version and it was like for you, you know like and that's how you build trust in how you you make yourself likeable.
[SPEAKER_02]: It takes two seconds of the Google.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and also and the final thing I was going to say is like
[SPEAKER_05]: always have a question or questions for them.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because an interview is a two-way street, always make it conversational.
[SPEAKER_05]: Always prepare a list of questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: First of all, concerning the role, then concerning the team you will work with, then concerning the company culture, and they do like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: They like talking about themselves.
[SPEAKER_05]: They do like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And also, because in as much as they're interviewing you, you also interviewing them.
[SPEAKER_05]: I remember I had like, when I used to work at the Lloyd, I had like one of the VPs, when we had gone on the client site.
[SPEAKER_05]: He told us that he had this candidate.
[SPEAKER_05]: that he interviewed, who was like, he knew like everything like he answered every question, he knew everything.
[SPEAKER_05]: But at the end of the interview, as the candidate, you have any questions for me, and the candidates are no, and he didn't hire him.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, for sure that you are going to be part of the team, show interest, you know, you cannot go and work at the, or intend to work at a company, and you don't have any, no questions about the people you will work with and all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because you got to know because you might be working with a crazy boss or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you got to kind of know and sometimes it might not even be the fifth for you.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's why that's why I go back to interview and then I'm like, hey, like, what did you define success?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm going to be in this role forever or you know, is it kind of, what is it fast pace?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, if I'm hearing you can't really grow and everybody's working, I'm like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I got enough stress in my life, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I was spending hours of my day, every day, so yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me transition to, like, so with AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of got everything you need to know to get a job, prep for a job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully get a job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's the main things people look for with getting into cyber.
[SPEAKER_02]: With AI is new, using AI, or, you know, AI is going to take about a job.
[SPEAKER_02]: No matter what.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything you can use to get a job in cyber, with AR, or like, does that make sense to you?
[SPEAKER_05]: Can you formulate the question?
[SPEAKER_02]: So with AI now, there's going to be a lot of opportunities, especially in cyber security.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: How would you get a job in that field currently to take advantage of it?
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think AI and cyber security work hand in hand.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, they kind of need each other because AI is growing at it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Very fast-paced and just like every technology AI was created for good reasons, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like for it's research and for advanced in research But then there are always like malicious people trying to do malicious things So you need cybersecurity to you know to watch over that to prevent the spread of malicious things or fake things of deep fake
[SPEAKER_05]: of all the negativity that comes with that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so cyber security, so AI needs cyber security.
[SPEAKER_05]: And cyber security also needs AI's four sets of certain technologies.
[SPEAKER_05]: You have technologies like quiet AI and other technologies that go along with that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So both kind of work hand in hand and like I said,
[SPEAKER_05]: invest in yourself, invest in your brain, you don't lose anything by learning, like learn AI, there are training programs and there are a lot of also free for those who may not have all the means like, they're also like free courses on you, the me on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and so invest in yourself, learn AI, look at courses that relate AI to cybersecurity, some technologies that can kind of relate both,
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say a little bit of code, I mean, you don't have to, but a little bit of coding, just to know how things flow, how things go, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Python, learn a little Python, you can't go around with Python.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can go around with Python.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I understand.
[SPEAKER_05]: I first just, sorry about the very first programming language I learned was a Java, and you know, public study, main voice, string, arts, and all that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Open the curly braces and close, and, you know, I was,
[SPEAKER_05]: And then when I learned Python, I felt like a caveman discovering fire.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was like, this is, you're talking to someone.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're talking to the computer, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I found out a lot of AI is right on Python.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, Python is, Python is great, honestly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Even, you know, even in Cali and Linux, even in, we use Python, like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also to just want to let the audience know with AI coming up, like, you know, AI is not perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: It gets things wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: And somebody can impersonate AI say, you're a lot of people use AI as a therapist at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, your boyfriend's a hacker.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can hack your AI, pretend that in pretend that you are, you know, AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it can be started getting you advice on what to do and manipulating you, Loki.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just hypothetically.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see, into Ultron.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, you know, just notice I was going to be jobs because it's still not regulated industry right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, we know we talked about how to get in the cyber everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you mentioned your business.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like five points in this interview.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell me about cyber MOOC?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you offer?
[SPEAKER_02]: And just tell me about the goals of the company and what you're trying to do?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, awesome.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, cyber MOOC was created in December 2022.
[SPEAKER_05]: and the company has two main goals, training and consulting.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we train individuals to get into tech and to get into cyber security.
[SPEAKER_05]: And our training program so far with...
[SPEAKER_05]: training multiple people in the United States, in France, Germany, England, Nigeria, Cameroon, Belgium, Italy, like, from... As a means, yeah, multiple locations.
[SPEAKER_05]: UK, I think, I mentioned that Canada as well, to get jobs.
[SPEAKER_05]: So our training program is like, there's a theory part where you learn the theory.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's very hands-on focus because we have three classes per week.
[SPEAKER_05]: Monday is still very Wednesday and Thursday hands on our hands on follow what we learn on the Monday So if you like I mentioned earlier if you learn firewalls you actually configure firewalls if you learn SSH You actually SSH into a device if you learn the Internal response you go into Splunk and we actually do Splunk searches
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we have training, we are partners, training partners with Komsia.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, those who join us have a 20% of the Komsia security plus certification price.
[SPEAKER_05]: We do resume building, we do interview prep, so we build resume, you know, of our students.
[SPEAKER_05]: We do interview prep, we help build their LinkedIn.
[SPEAKER_05]: We have a program where we assist with job search.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we are able to apply to up to a thousand jobs for students.
[SPEAKER_05]: spreadsheet with contacts of recruiters, so their phone numbers, email addresses, calendar URLs, and more so you can go and put some time on the calendars.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's the training part.
[SPEAKER_05]: So training people from zero all the way to get ready to talk to an interviewer.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we've trained people from over 60 years of age on the 18 years old.
[SPEAKER_05]: We've trained people from people who didn't quite very little level in English.
[SPEAKER_05]: who had never, you know, worked around a computer before.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're very patient in training, very, you know, attention focused to students.
[SPEAKER_05]: We have a lot of study sessions, individual mentorship sessions, because the success of the students is also our success.
[SPEAKER_05]: For the community succeed, the students have the success.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we put it in a lot of time and students will take the course.
[SPEAKER_05]: They have a free,
[SPEAKER_05]: and re-enrollment.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because we want you to learn, we don't, I'm not focused on the money, you know, because we have bigger projects.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's not a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we have free re-enrollments, and today,
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, what brings me joy is like, one of my students met in the class, they got married, they invited me to the wedding.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they invited me to the wedding.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,
[SPEAKER_05]: all the previous students and whenever there's a new job or if we could have reached out to me I'd post the job in there or someone from the team we'd post the job and even others and we have like in it's not only like pure cybersecurity but also project management for cybersecurity we also have that in there now that was a training we also have consulting so consulting for the businesses so coming approaching them and being like
[SPEAKER_05]: This is what it looks like right now, but we can help you get to this level.
[SPEAKER_05]: We can do a strategy consulting, so looking at your controls right now and improving them, or a technical consulting, even actually getting our hands on your systems.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we are also expanding, so we are recently legalized the branch in Cameroon.
[SPEAKER_05]: And thank you, and we are going to legalize in France as well.
[SPEAKER_05]: And in India, where we also have people, so we are slowly building, slowly but surely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just sort of audience can know because I know what a lot of programs are.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know how long it is, but how long can you expect to do your program?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so it's typically like three to four months.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the first, I will say the first eight weeks is purely like training.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the first two months is like,
[SPEAKER_05]: Monday, like three days a week from 7 to 9 p.m.
[SPEAKER_05]: Eastern because most of our students have like other jobs, they're either trying to transition or get a promotion.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's like 7 to 9 p.m.
[SPEAKER_05]: Monday, theory.
[SPEAKER_05]: So let's say we are like in a networking week.
[SPEAKER_05]: Monday, theory, we learn what is an IP address, what is a cookie, what's the cash, what's the DNS, all those.
[SPEAKER_05]: Then Wednesday and Thursday, hands on and practice questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we take.
[SPEAKER_05]: Practice questions and then hands-on, you go on the Linux terminal, you do like the if-config commands, how to find your IP address, you do like all these different commands, and then you take on wireshark, we do like we showed the actual difference between HTTP and HTTP as when you go on an HTTP website.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can see that it's unencrypted when you go back on wireshark, you cannot really information.
[SPEAKER_05]: We showed them how to track malware with the wireshark, we showed them bugs with
[SPEAKER_05]: How can you forward connections?
[SPEAKER_05]: Sorry for getting too technical.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, you don't want to.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so that's the first, it weeks.
[SPEAKER_05]: Monday, theory, Wednesday and Thursday, hands-on and practice questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then after the first, it weeks.
[SPEAKER_05]: And now after each module,
[SPEAKER_05]: So after the first three weeks, there is a project.
[SPEAKER_05]: So first three weeks, GRC, then project, then next three weeks networking, project, then cloud project, then there is a big project.
[SPEAKER_05]: So in ninth week, but sometimes you can be more depending on the time.
[SPEAKER_05]: So there is like a big project where you go and you have very massive project.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then after that, we have post-training.
[SPEAKER_05]: Renoviprep, resume building, LinkedIn building,
[SPEAKER_05]: and we actually cooked them, you know, like we asked them questions and not us the instructors because they are comfortable with us, but we bring, so maybe don't be surprised at one time I asked you to come and interview your students, you know, because it's always good for them to be stressed, to be, you know, to meet a new face, because that's what happens in an interview, you don't know who you're meeting and they don't smile with them, they asked them questions and they are very, you know, intense on the questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we have like,
[SPEAKER_05]: LinkedIn building, and then, and in the meantime, they're prepping for the search applications, you know, they get the, the contests, security plus, and the ISC-2 set of items I have a security, because that one is still free as well.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then, we have a, like, we continue, like, assistance with job search.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we have our networking platform where, if there is a role we send, if a recruiter reaches out to us, we send like a new role, and we constantly exchange with them.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, um, yeah, that's, that's like,
[SPEAKER_05]: three to four months, but lifetime, you know, access to instructors, to courses, and to, you know, real-enroll.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay, so and then too I looked at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's affordable.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, there's some people that's in college tuition for all the things you offer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the audience just, you know, check outside the MOOC, you know, make sure you check out his platform.
[SPEAKER_02]: Check out what he's doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: He cares about everything he's doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just had a couple more questions for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, can you give me a quote?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I forgot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what to say.
[SPEAKER_04]: the blend for the future?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so it's okay, I mean, can you tell me, like what are your plans for the future?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to stick to the five-year mark because at some point, we have time stance we had on our video, what do you want to do for the future?
[SPEAKER_05]: I like that question because it's also challenging me and it gives me a countable.
[SPEAKER_05]: So our plan is to train within the next five years, 10,000 people.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's why we expand to multiple countries, and right now we translated all the courses to French.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like I told you French, I'm from a French background, from a francophone background.
[SPEAKER_05]: So expanding to multiple countries, especially in Africa where cybersecurity is still very primitive, it doesn't really exist like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So approaching organizations and helping them.
[SPEAKER_05]: have a formal and standard cybersecurity approach, hiring people for cybersecurity, so you are like 10,000 people, and also personally, I'm working, I cannot mention that right now in the podcast, but working on a very big project that will be expanded to multiple consonants.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say a lot of people use people that's an Africa for a virtual assistance and they're doing a lot of this stuff without AI, you know, building all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you introduce them with AI, cybersecurity, you never know what they'll turn into.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can turn into a Wakanda in a way, so I love that what you're doing down there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people don't have the connections to do that, even people tell me, you need to go back to, you know, I'm not Jerry and so I was like, go back to Nigeria and you know, and I'm like, I got to, I don't have the connections like that yet, you know, they probably try to get me before, you know, I'm just joking.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my people, so I think I could have been a way with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, yeah, that's a good go, you know, and I think you're on your way doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've been doing it for, you know, some years now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you had a hundred, so 10,000 people, and I'm pretty sure your team will get bigger.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you might not have to do all the training yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, so like, what's one quote you want to leave with the audiences, it can be a quote or something or a mantra.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just anything you want to leave the audience with.
[SPEAKER_05]: Don't wait for the opportunity to come to you, create the opportunity.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like we're saying, go to conferences, go to events, go to be ready, go, go, you know, get your skills ready, and then create the opportunity.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, go for it, especially with the way the economy is right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, don't be afraid to ask.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a close-mars don't get fed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they don't get fed, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you hungry, bones, I mean, you're fighting the sandwich, I'm like, I get a piece.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because you know, like, in most of those things, like, you look at a Lincoln page or someone's account or,
[SPEAKER_05]: and Instagram page, it's people behind those, you know, just send a DM.
[SPEAKER_05]: What's the worst thing that can happen, they don't respond?
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, yeah, yeah, you can tell you know it.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, send a DM, it just takes you like five minutes or so, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's a good one as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, no problem, so, you know, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Careful.
[SPEAKER_05]: I appreciate you, brother.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I appreciate you coming all the way from...
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love a Georgia manager, you know, who knows?
[SPEAKER_02]: I might be down here or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: You should go down there.
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's have a drink further.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got most of the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Show me a good time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But thank you everybody for watching the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a great podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're watching on YouTube, remember to like the video, subscribe to the channel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Comment down below if you have any different tips.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or if you just enjoy, remember to check out the TechWoke Newsletter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also check out our OurMaf Academy.io if you want to learn different OurMaf stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also check out the merch, but remember everybody, get 1% better every day, peace out everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will see you on the next one, thank you everybody.