[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of us shooting the ship.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're starting to get into the groove.
[SPEAKER_02]: What can we gossip about?
[SPEAKER_02]: What can we talk about?
[SPEAKER_02]: I also feel like we started on such a high with like the big reveal of the show and then CC's job move.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now we have to like settle into the groove of the show a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope you will continue to be as juicy as possible as we go, but we will find out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well now our listeners will be like, no, no, no, you tell us all the time and books with hooks that after you escalated the tension, the tension needs keep rising.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're just going to have to get creative.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we're going to have to take over some domino, but yeah, we've lots of fun things to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of domino, what are you working on?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, this whole like quiet summer thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: So fun for everybody having a quiet summer.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like being busy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice to kind of have a bit of a work life balance.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I have lots of fun things I'm working on in the middle of three contracts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the middle of the TV film deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully going to announce these three book deals really soon, which is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just need a list of the five books that I'm going to be pitching kind of out of the gate in the fall.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I said, like, what they're about over to our foreign rights manager, she sent me back a fire emoji.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did a great job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Come here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm good.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we know how high the bar is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we should be very happy about the fire emoji.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I am discussing book launches with clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have two books coming out on the same day in November, same day, same day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what they do this to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for giving contracts to, I'm in all the Zoom calls.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is about moving agencies that just makes people be like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, let's catch up, which is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so great, but it's everyone wanting to catch up at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a complaint, but it definitely keeps me busy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm doing an Instagram live with Sherry Spisher, who's at my agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing an Instagram live on Thursday, and Sherry says closed to query.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is really a cool opportunity for people to get her taken on stories, hooks, and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: If anyone wants to listen to the live, check out the WSA Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm excited to talk about hooks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also been scouting a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Scouting a lot for nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like so many book ideas.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well, let me find the people who can write these books.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that takes up a lot of time too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fun time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also time consuming.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's also hard because it's like that perfect alchemy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You were like, you can have this great idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you remember C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: but when you and I were in London last summer, I was in some nonfiction meetings, I talked to you about this idea and I still never found anybody to work on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember the idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want a little book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you please get on it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, I'm working on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's hard to like, you can have the idea as the agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't write the books, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the books I'm actually pitching this fall and obviously when this all comes together and a larger way, it will be very exciting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can talk about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: when it happens, but this author came to me via referral, and she had a huge platform, and we're like, okay, what is this idea going to be?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we going to work on with you, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You have this great platform, incredible business.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember which one it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: She sent me over all of this material, and so I was kind of like, oh, now I get to be the sleuth of like, okay, she built this brand, has all this incredible stuff happening with her business, and then they come to me with all of this juicy material, and I get to be like, okay, where is the book in this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Clearly you are an incredible person, you're a great teacher,
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, you built something so how can I as the agent get in there with my little like toolkit and I felt like.
[SPEAKER_02]: a forensic, I don't know, scavenger, like, like, it's like dissect all of this, get in here, what's the book?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm the one that kind of came up with the hook and I pitched the hook to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this is what you sent me.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is something you said.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a line from an interview that you did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you build this out into a book?
[SPEAKER_02]: And she did.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she built out this incredible proposal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's coming together so well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's one of the complete perfect alignment things where obviously it's all her, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: All I did was pick up this and be like, hmm, there's something here, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we build this out?
[SPEAKER_02]: She built it out into this great proposal.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going on submission with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fire emoji from my foreign rights manager.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really excited.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the feeling is
[SPEAKER_02]: And I might use some sports analogies when the apology has to see some events.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sports analogies being this feeling of like an August.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we don't really have some things in August.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, some people do and again, that's totally, totally fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: But most people kind of like take a little pause in the summer kind of go on the sub and the fall with their books.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel like, you know, using my sports analogies where as an athlete before a race that you're just like tapered down, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't like go hard right until a race day.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay, tapered down so that you
[SPEAKER_02]: recover, build some energy, and then you're really ready to go, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I don't know if anybody watches the podiums, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: They have the horses, whatever they're the bowls, the bowls, and they're a little like corrals, and then the cowboy gets on top, and then they're like waiting, and then they open the crown, and the cowboy jumps up, and does her little rodeo?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I feel.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like a cowboy at a rodeo, wait for my little gate to open, so I can do my little rodeo.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that analogy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there is a C.C version of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So right before Easter, you know, you're going to get a lot of chocolate during Easter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, you might not have a cookies a day right before Easter.
[SPEAKER_01]: You might only have five.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: A girl can live with five cookies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a day.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a day to get excited about your next cookie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, for special Easter chocolate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is, it is the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of being excited about events, what are you going to be doing in terms of events this fall?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was actually working on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We actually want to do it together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be great.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have tons of fun things going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'mCC and I are both going to be at the AALA people of publishing conference that was coming up right away in September.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or as Insiders call it, PupCon.
[SPEAKER_01]: You like the Funga popcorn, but it's popcorn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to be dramatic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not speaking at it, but we are attending it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So other publishing folks, if you're listening to this, you know, we're going to go for the week.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do our little meeting new things with our clients and editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'll try and see each other and hang out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm doing people publishing the Muslim literary festival.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing a virtual event with them in October.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am going to DFWCon, which is in Dallas Fort Worth, Texas area.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be doing the Sunday keynote, which I'm excited about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't done a keynote in a couple years.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love keynotes, anybody who runs writers conferences and needs keynotes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love doing keynotes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like building in little analogies and metaphors for life and how that kind of translates for writing and how we build that out and to storytelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a huge
[SPEAKER_02]: huge keynote junkies so anybody that need keynote stuff like thing weeks I love doing them and then in Ottawa where I live I'm doing the Ottawa writers festival I recently joined the board of the festival I don't think I announced that yet I draw the board of the Ottawa writers festival so I am participating in kind of building out where they're going they've been around for I think thirty years so I'm definitely not new to the scene but
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really excited to join the board in their next kind of growth phase of how they're going to run the festival.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that runs pretty much through the fall and October through November.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you see where you headed this fall?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So before
[SPEAKER_01]: are conference from our conference.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm now taking credit for the whole conference.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before popcorn, I have actually an event on September twelve.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's called the only Latin A and the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: How to advocate for Latin next stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Melanie and Glessias Pettis will speak at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so well, other very important people, but I have a book with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to go there and support her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's in that working opportunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: And similar to PopCon, by the way, listeners, we should make this really clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: PopCon is only for publishing professionals.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is not a writer's conference.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are a writer, and you're like, I want to go, I'm sorry, you can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only for publishing professionals.
[SPEAKER_01]: But their other lovely conferences that you can go to, we'll talk about that later.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is the Latinx Writer's Conference in New York?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where are you going for that one for yourself?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also the city.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's on September twelfth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's part of a larger writer's conference, but this event is just for publishing professionals.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, not open to writers, but then after this event, there's like a networking kind of like, I think it's like a party like a cocktail.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then writers are encouraged to attend that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there will be an opportunity for me to meet writer as it's kind of excited about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have that on September, twelfth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then again, the popcorn, one is popcorn, September, fifteen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I forget that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'm wearing that week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're like seventeen.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's seventeen with seventeen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, September.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to the Kawaii writer's conference in November.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also a really cool event that I'm so excited to be able to talk about, but I'm not allowed to talk about yet in October.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will tell you, Carly, once we stop recording, but I'm not allowed to announce it in our podcast yet, but maybe next time I will.
[SPEAKER_01]: In October, I'm very excited early October.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a very cool event.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, well you're building us lots of suspense, but yet lots of fun things coming up.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fall as you guys know is a very busy time.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also Frank for book fair, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like all these other conferences going on virtual stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we also threw our day jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And between all of this, I am also going to LA in November to pitch some TV film projects for adaptation and the co-agents, things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: This will be busy.
[SPEAKER_02]: CC and I will try to schedule these calls between all of these different travel events.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so sticking on the theme of writer's conferences and such.
[SPEAKER_02]: So somebody sent in this question and you guys know how I feel like your questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want your question to be featured on the show, send us a good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this person sent in a great question at Lauren Cocker, she said,
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to hear you shoot the shit on writing conferences, specifically agent one-on-ones to agents, enjoy them or certainly hate them.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the expectations of writers?
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a great question because it's so hard to
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of get at the nuance of writer's conferences.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are all different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone has a completely different vibe and energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been to some which are very kind of like small and intimate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been to some that are like huge.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you look at huge festival, I've been to some that are really well run.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been to some that are not well run.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's hard to shoot the shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually fun to shoot the shit because there are so many different stories and different scenarios that we can talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, CC, do you want to give your high level take?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or where do you want to start?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to start with the one and ones?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we hate them?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, where do you want to start?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do think we should start with the one-on-ones, but I have to be honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that we can look at that in isolation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it is a part of a larger conference, so we will zoom out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do not hate them at all, and I don't think most agents do, or else I don't think we would do them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think like everything in life, like every experience in life, and especially experiences that are intense.
[SPEAKER_01]: These one-on-ones are typically intense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you've never been to a writer's conference, picture a room, picture a desk, agents are sitting at their desk, and every so often the person in front of us changes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it could be like a ten minute meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be a three minute meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are, I believe there's a conference that's like one minute meeting or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: This depends on the conference, but it's essentially a situation where agents are meeting with people and it's like back to back meetings where writers get to tell us about their books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy the energy that comes with being around the book people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a huge introvert, but I discover this about myself when I attend the London book fair for the first and only time I've ever been.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, book people don't drain me in the same way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I still need my alone time, but I enjoy being around the book people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy book energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy talking about stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I love is meeting with someone who
[SPEAKER_01]: knows what their story is about, is excited to talk to me about their story, and hopefully isn't too nervous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I completely understand being nervous, but I'm always like, it's all good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're comfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: I promise you're okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes too, I've met with writers who aren't super sure about their stories yet, and they're honest about that, and that's great too, because what I like is a compatibility between what you've put into something and what you're expecting out of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's key.
[SPEAKER_01]: What to me is sometimes frustrating about these one-on-ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: It comes down to two things.
[SPEAKER_01]: One is the organization.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some conferences I will never go again because it's so disorganized.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no one's keeping time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very anxious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like the writers aren't getting proper attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not getting what I need to get, which is like to learn about their story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so organization really matters and going to a conference that's well organized is super important.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I don't love too is, you know, sometimes I once had someone I'll never forget this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I once had someone sit down in front of me and say, I've pitched to you before, I'm here to pitch to you again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't take no for an answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had to tell them, like, very candidly, I know that in the business world, sometimes we're encouraged to practice a level of insistence that can be interpreted as determination, but for publishing, this is not going to serve you well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm being candidly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not self-awareness, let's just say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it comes from the fact that there are instances in the business world where saying I'm not taking over an answer can be really empowering and that can show ambition in publishing a dozen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you need to know how to hear no and pivot and work on something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if they had come to me and said I have a new story and I really want you to like that one, that's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's great, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I've already said no to something, I'm not going to not say no again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, it's a great point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like there's so many different directions to go in this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's just, yeah, I'll focus on the one on one for a sec.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say, you know, it's kind of one of those things where I am generally excited about them because the goal, if an agent is there, their goal is to find something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Agents don't go to conference just be like, I'm just going to hang out in the corner or I'm going to choose not to socialize or
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, the whole point, if anybody was to accept an invitation to go to a conference, it's because they want to be there, meaning they want to sign clients, they want to take these meetings.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there is a goal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that we think we're going to sign clients everywhere we go, but there is an expectation that we're hopeful that we will see something that we like and something that is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The best one on one
[SPEAKER_02]: In my opinion, are sometimes those really chatty ones where they're just like, it's not quite ready yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was hoping that it was going to be ready, but it's not, and I really, you know, really just want to pick your brain, because I always tell people, don't ever cancel.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you sent that meaning aside and you want to go and you paid extra for it, or you're just, you know, it's a competitive spot to get, just come and ask me any questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like those kind of those chatty ones because I think it does a lot for
[SPEAKER_02]: It can do a lot for people self-esteem.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can answer a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can debunk myths.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they can also just understand that agents are people, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they kind of, yeah, in general, speaking very generally, they hold this up on his pedestal of like these agents or the gatekeepers or the ones that are standing between me and what I want, which is, you know, this published book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we really are just the people in the middle, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We are middle people, but we're incredibly
[SPEAKER_02]: educated and talented middle people that can, again, help serve you in our career.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I definitely, I enjoy them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't hate them.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can be very long.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can be very tired.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if we have a little bit of a day's looking our eyes and our constant looking for the gyocope or the coffee machine, you know, that's just because we need some.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need some energy to keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I would never say that I hate them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I definitely signed clients from them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, one of the book deals that I'm working on right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I found this person not from this book, but aside them, based on something that they pitched me in person, and now we're selling a book for them like years and years later.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can form these connections that can turn into something which are everlasting and kind of can build into those actual client relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: So definitely not hate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say if we are there, we are not hating on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the expectations of writers?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a much larger question because I think you're frightening them again, specifically in terms of one at once.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the expectations of writers in a one at one?
[SPEAKER_02]: Generally, the expectation is that you will have a finished manuscript.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know I just said that it's okay if you don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I already talked about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: The expectation is you're going to pitch us a finished manuscript because one of the things that happens is
[SPEAKER_02]: If a writer sits down and they pitch me this great book and then they don't have it done, I'll be like, oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, send me when you're ready, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, just letting us know that it's not ready if it isn't ready is fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Other expectations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like some, I think some writers think that like you have to have a business card or bookmarks and you have to hand me a lot of you want to hand me something.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really feel like the CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're always like, take this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: a pamphlet, it's a bookmark, it's a business, it's something.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is this urge to send me home with something?
[SPEAKER_02]: The best thing you can send me home with is the desire for me to want to read your book.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what you should be sending me home with.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to send me home with a bookmark, guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate you guys keep the staples of business, but yeah, we need to focus on the story and that's what stays with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things I will say, like, how can you elevate, I can't they're probably trying to get out like, how do you elevate this experience a little bit?
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I do like is kind of a combination of if you know you're going to be pitching me at the conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: either come up to me beforehand at the cocktails or sit with me at a meal and just do the whole like, you know, sitting around the table together, chit chat and then just say, hey, I'm going to pitch you right or you don't look before to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then walk away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't do the pitch there because the pitch is for the pitch, but you know, you can build a little rapport beforehand or
[SPEAKER_02]: Pinch me, say, you know, it's in the morning and then comes it with me at lunch after, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you can double down on building that rapport.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to be like, oh, I can only talk to her in the pitch sessions because again, if we're at a lunch, if we're at a cocktail hour, if we're at an networking event, we are there to work and chat.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I suggest like a formal and an informal, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do the pitch mean, but find me all so it inappropriate and formal setting so that we can, yeah, just kind of build that rapport a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's always a nice thing to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the central questions I'm interpreting this, but I think when Lauren and other people send in questions like this one, they're saying, Hey, if you was an agent have a slush file, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You have your query inbox open.
[SPEAKER_01]: What advantage is there to an in person meeting?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that having that
[SPEAKER_01]: clear expectation going in of what that in person meeting can and can't do for you is also super important to make the experience better for the agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to work with realistic people, but also for yourself, the writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that for me, I will look at every query you set me and so you absolutely do not have to attend a conference to meet with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would never do that and I don't think a serious agent ever would.
[SPEAKER_01]: That being said, like so many things in life,
[SPEAKER_01]: There is something special about meeting with someone and talking to them and seeing their face and hearing their voice and feeling their energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much of life as about energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so of course, if you want to and you're able to, because I also know it's a big time and financial investment for people, but if you're able to, it's always a plus if you're excited about it and prepared for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's not going to make me like your story more, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that, that will not happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it will make me read your story faster, like just being honest here, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you will have made me curious in person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I'm going to follow my curiosity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another thing, too, is for me as an agent, whenever I'm offering representation, we call them beauty contests in the publishing industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when two agents offer on something, it's a beauty contest between those two agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we call them beauty contests because agents don't pay writers money.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no financial incentive to go with one agent versus another.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, you know, one offers larger than the other, which is the case when publishers make multiple offers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So with agents, beauty comes from the fact that it's all your personality.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, why do I want to work with this person and not that person?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if someone met me in person and got a sense for my energy, they will know whether they want to work with me or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if the answer is yes, then I will have a competitive advantage.
[SPEAKER_01]: So selfishly, writers' conferences are also about giving agents competitive advantages, because when we are in a competitive situation, and that happens more often than you guys might think.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it could be like, well, hopefully an author will say, yes, this other agent is really awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, hey, I met with CC and I just fight with her and I want to work with someone who I vibe with and that will be the cherry on top, you know, the other agent might also be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's also a selfish strategic decision on my part to get to know writers like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I also think like to build on that, it's also a brand-building exercise for us, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that author could hear you on a panel or go to one of your workshops and be like, oh, that person's really smart.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're taking this to a level like didn't imagine or whatever they said at that key, you don't really spoke to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it is a brand-building exercise for us in terms of our relation to the industry and the writers that attended and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a hundred percent yeah and zooming out for the larger conference for writers you guys can meet other writers build in network and for agents it's the same we meet other agents we meet editors and we you know it continued to build our network
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of advantages to going to these.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's work, but it's also fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say that for me, the conferences I struggle with are the disorganized conferences.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel so about saying this, but it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are some of them are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also, and this is not the conference fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: This thing I'm about to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: being indoors all day, like from seven a.m.
[SPEAKER_01]: to eleven p.m.
[SPEAKER_01]: back to back.
[SPEAKER_01]: It drives me bananas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I need to go out and move my body and have my mental health walk and there's often not time for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the reasons I really like Hawaii is because the pitches are outside.
[SPEAKER_01]: and you're walking in everything's outside, you know, and there's beautiful sunshine and you guys know, I don't like the hate.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about the hate for me, but I, like, I cannot be indoors, like in a, you know, cloistered space.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just being cold.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, you know which one I'm thinking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to say it, but like, middle of summer, hot place.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's exactly what I was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There weren't any windows.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I am a human being.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was not in America.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, cold.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go outside.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, we have a different climate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes you have to walk outside just to practice photosynthesis.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just be like, I'm going to look at the sun and hopefully it's like all of a sudden it's like super hot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it's
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a challenge for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the unorganized ones are brutal because I'm like, what am I even doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, is who's looking at me?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm here for what time I was speaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm tech.
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I going to build slides?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm yelling because there's no microphone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to yell.
[SPEAKER_01]: My voice is precious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I will say this so.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was not a disorganized conference at all, but I met Carly at a conference.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you think about it, the reason why the two of us are chatting right now comes from a conference.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I met my current boss Wendy, also at the Kawaii writers conference last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So conferences are influencing my life people.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They changed their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I do, I do remember this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And from my perspective, it was a little bit different because I think this was, so Vermont was this.
[SPEAKER_02]: forty nineteen or no, this is what he's seventeen.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, nineteen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because I was pregnant with this conference, but nobody knew her and nobody knew.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I just never be like.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then I can't really tell people not that publishing is a huge drinking culture, but there is like let's grab a beer after this, you know, happy hour, let's meet up and hang out.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not not a drinking culture, let's just say.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then so all these people that I would hang out with all the time, all know I love to grab a beer, have a glass of wine at the end of the day and shoot the shit, no pun intended, about the conference and meet up and it's a social thing that we do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so I had to go there, go to the like agent happy hour and be like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a dinner to go to, so I can't have a drink right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I felt so at a character, I didn't feel like myself, like, in many ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then CC still liked me, even though it's kind of grumpy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved you, became obsessed with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: The obsession started there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had to find out all the things about you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, obsession.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was because I was like acting too cool for school.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was pushing everybody away, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: But no, I do remember that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the world checked out.
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't see each other for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: The world checked out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that was in Toronto.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a great one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so if anybody, I don't know, like we can continue to build on this conversation over the course of us shooting the shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can talk about the conferences when we come back from them.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you guys want to know more, but any of you that have been to conferences, you kind of know what we're getting at, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they're all a bit unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: They all have their strengths and weaknesses.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to really think about what you want to get out of them, who's attending them, but the caliber of them is so you can really feel like if you're going to do it that, you know, there's a reason to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, we are going to throw to our sponsors now.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, and we are back.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have another question that came in.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is asking kind of an interesting way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can kind of interpret this how you want CC, but I will read it to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: From Eve Mitchell, thirty, sixteen on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love the show, love the banter from two very bright, immeable and spot on agents.
[SPEAKER_02]: One thing, I've always wondered when it comes to literature, agents and editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's how they develop the skills to analyze main use scripts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Figure out what works and what does it and make helpful in insightful suggestions that improve the main use script without being writers.
[SPEAKER_02]: I asked this in the most respectful and curious way and I hope it will be addressed in an upcoming podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a little chuckle at the approach of this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: CC, do you want to kick us off with any answer?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was a really cool question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it because I think embedded in this question is I think a understanding and opinion that in order to know how to guide a writer you must be a writer and I'm personally disagree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that there are
[SPEAKER_01]: that you can receive guidance from other writers and that guidance can be really special.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, beta readers, we love you, critique partners, we love you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I actually think that the best person to guide someone on their storytelling, not their writing, I will talk about that in a second, is someone who is a an avid reader
[SPEAKER_01]: be very good at spotting patterns and understanding beats.
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone who knows how to dissect a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to spot this person, watch a TV show with them for the first time, first time for the both of you, and they're going to be like, oh, and now the twist is going to be this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that is a red herring.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a clue.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm talking about, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then another thing to is someone who's very, very business savvy, good at positioning, good at building relationships, good at knowing how to pitch, which we won't talk about so much because this person's question is specifically about the editorial component of being an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I'm interpreting it anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: To start, please remember that the editorial component is an extra that we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: An agent's job, it is important that everyone remember this.
[SPEAKER_01]: An agent's job is to sell your work and to manage your literary business.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are agents who are not a tutorial, and that is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are not worst agents, because they might not be the agent for you, but they're still fine agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: What we offer editorially is an extra thing we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do not charge extra commission for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have absolutely no incentive to do it other than the fact that we believe in your story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that because we just observed so many stories from inception to production.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are uniquely equipped.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that we are also flooded with stories makes us have the highest of bars, because I am literally reading a hundred queries a day.
[SPEAKER_01]: So believe me, to get my attention, you need a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people might be thinking, wait, that's bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not because readers of all the gatekeepers in publishing, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: You might think to yourself, who's the biggest gatekeeper in publishing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it agents?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it editors?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it publicists?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it salespeople?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it booksellers?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Readers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Readers are the biggest gatekeepers in publishing because readers are ruthless.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, to get someone to really buy a book, read a book, spend their time reading a book, and as Asians because we are flooded with material, we are actually primed to know what works and doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see drafts, most readers who are not in the publishing don't see drafts.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know what a draft looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: A good agent can spot potential.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone can spot delivery.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your reader, you know, a delivery looks like a good agent spots potential.
[SPEAKER_01]: We spot the almost there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just need ten percent more and you'll be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it comes from that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes from that instinct for storytelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a great answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in a long as you were talking.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: This, I can really, I feel like I can only speak to my own experience in this case, you know, and I hate making generalizations because I think I always think like we're just one podcast in this business.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's all these other people that do it other ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: My undergrad education was in English language literature, so my job as a student was to analyze fiction, discuss fiction, think about it in a creative context, and it's context within the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then I went off to publishing school where I learned
[SPEAKER_02]: everything from project management to sales, to rights, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I am somebody that technically has the education to do this job, but nobody ever taught me how to edit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody teaches you this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even to Asian, it was by witnessing other people do this job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the editorial piece, I did take a creative writing class in undergrad, and I took two with a published poet, which is incredible, and very involved in the literary scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Kingston and Toronto, Carolyn Smart, she's phenomenal.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure to Queen's creative writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And from there, it was really just about asking questions, about listening, about knowing what the assignment was.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think from that very early age, I realized that I was never going to be a writer.
[SPEAKER_02]: I realized that I could spot who I thought was more talented than other people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you are in a creative writing environment like that in undergrad or in any other capacity, you can see the people that are writing for the sake of writing, writing for the sake of their own ego.
[SPEAKER_02]: And from an early age, I could see I was much more drawn to the people that could tell a story and write a story in a way that was the most accessible.
[SPEAKER_02]: I only cared about the most accessible stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so fast forward to me working in publishing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I work on commercial fiction on market fiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't work on experimental delivery fiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have always
[SPEAKER_02]: thought about the accessibility side of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I have always edited towards accessibility in the sense of making sure that it is readable to the most amount of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that is how I always tell my clients that I'm going to edit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was saying I'm going to edit as if I'm a reader.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to edit for the reader.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to edit for the market.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't mean we have to write to the market.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to edit to the market.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you write, how you're going to write.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I am going to make sure that the way that I'm going to direct you with my developmental edits, with my structural edits, is going to be for the sake of storytelling, for the most amount of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that's just how I develop my own skills.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're so right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your job at the end of the day is to make sure that your clients work can reach as many readers as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is what an author who can succeed in publishing what's
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, anyone listening going, oh, no, that's not what I want.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It better be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you want readership.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were just writing for yourself, then why would you be querying?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like anyone can write for themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a wonderful thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please write for yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep a journal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will have fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're writing as a career, then your job is to find your audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And having that sensibility.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've worked together in projects for years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've seen you do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen you read a story and be like, this is what I like and this is what I think readers are going to like.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a very special thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about knowing the audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about having that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is your line currently.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like every agent is a is a mix between business and creative and whether it's sixty forty fifty fifty whatever you you find the agent that's best for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: When was it Eve?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was Eve, the person who asked this question when Eve, when you're asking this, I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that in the same way that a coach doesn't have to have been a player or the best player to know how to coach, it's sort of the same principle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the most important analogy.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the players that become coaches have a skill that the others don't, but it doesn't mean it's better or worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that also speaks to agents, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, they all come from different backgrounds, you know, you have a player background, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you wrote books.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you have like your own special background that makes you, you are.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have my own background that makes me, you I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so every coach, every agent, every editor, every minute that you work with, they
[SPEAKER_02]: come to their career infused with everything that kind of touched them in their storytelling journey along the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's why it's such a special business.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why we always have an alchemy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know if we always talk about alchemy in this business because you just never know when all this like magic and the stars are going to align and
[SPEAKER_02]: everybody's individual skills coming together on a project.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or we'll make it special.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope that answers your question a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for sending that one in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so now we have kind of like a juicy subject to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like we're starting to get into a flow of this show where it's like we have been for, we feed you some questions and then we find a sub-stack that we like deep dive on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the sub-stack that we're going to deep dive on today is
[SPEAKER_02]: Amy is a subject and the title of the article is I went on one of the biggest podcasts in the world and it didn't sell any books by Amy McNeigh.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was featured on July thirty first of this year on her podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Amy A. M. I. E. Amy Substack.
[SPEAKER_02]: I went on one of the biggest podcasts in the world and it didn't sell any books.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I found this through a follower
[SPEAKER_02]: And a follower named Sonya sent this to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you to Sonya who DMT me this one because I hadn't seen it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it got a lot of comments and likes it has like, six hundred and sixty likes, hundred and thirteen comments.
[SPEAKER_02]: So definitely a juicy one that was making its way around the web.
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically, she went on Jay Shetty's podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says first of all, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: No shade to him whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was a lovely and a viewer.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he was a fan of her work and then they had an incredible interview.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's no shade.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more just like so curious that she's like, she tracks this in a chart.
[SPEAKER_02]: She shows a little chart so you can see like, was there a lip?
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is really interesting for a number of reasons and she kind of like breaks it down.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's just like, I found this super fascinating as a creative professional that this happened in kind of did her little her deep dive on and I just want to read one thing that she said in her post.
[SPEAKER_02]: She says artists constantly outsource their power to someone outside of themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: We wait for the cavalry to arrive for the leg up for the good connection to elevate us to, quote, success and quote.
[SPEAKER_02]: This podcast will save me and get me into the charts.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I get this gig that'll be untouchable, if I get a review in the New Yorker, if I book a fly off the shelves, if this big label, big publisher, big director picks me, I will have it made in the shade.
[SPEAKER_02]: None of the biggest opportunities I've gotten as an author, speaker artist, have made a measurable impact on my career.
[SPEAKER_02]: But love, love that quote.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's also just like so much for us to dive into from like the PR perspective to the sales perspective to the brand perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't see, see, do you want to talk about your high level thoughts or where do you want to start on this one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I loved this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: This one was so interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I especially liked the fact that when she told her publisher that she was going on this podcast, everyone freaked out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so her editor freaked out, her team freaked out, everyone was like, oh my god, this is amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone was expecting a halo effect, which says a lot, you know, and I'm, and I'm wondering like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah because listen the truth is this is probably gonna be depressing for people but it's reality so let's just say it We are living at a time where nobody knows how to scale book sales nobody nobody I talked to editors currently talks editors we we are always talking to book people all the time including publicists including PR people
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you scale in a world where eighty-five percent of sales are direct to consumer?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, a podcast does sound logical because I'm going to listen to a podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I listen to plenty.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to go buy the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, a question I have if it didn't move the needle.
[SPEAKER_01]: So two thoughts, one thought is, I have heard in this tracks, just as a human, like this tracks for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard that you have to hear about a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: three to four times before you actually buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe being on this podcast is still awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, of course, it's still awesome because you love the experience, but it's still one of those times.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like you hear about it from a friend and then a podcast and then you see, I don't know, like you see something on Instagram and then you buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the second thought is, why not?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I started thinking about myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not the best example because I'm a bookworm, but also because I have so much reading to do, but I started thinking about my own situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like do I ever, am I ever on a podcast and then I buy a book?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do, but not all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd think that every interview I liked I'd buy a book and that's not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just being honest here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember Jane Friedman, Carly, you might remember that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jane Friedman came to talk to us at our agent's group years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's a big nonfiction reader.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said something that I thought was so smart.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said that she loved reading.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a big nonfiction reader.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that lately she was struggling.
[SPEAKER_01]: because so many of the books by the non-fiction experts she was buying, she had kind of the charity me where everything was going to be in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because there's already a podcast where you know there's already a sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember when she said that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then it makes perfect sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you need to have a platform to get a book to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, what's your book going to be about?
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, are you going to go on a podcast and make people curious to read your book?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or are you just going to make people curious to hear more about you?
[SPEAKER_01]: So they'll search for other podcasts where you are a guest.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's one of the issues also with the attention economy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we're just, we're used to just having podcasts for free so we can consume all this information.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you have to think about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So even though you aren't paying to listen to the podcast, and I know a bunch of people pay extra subscriptions and all of this sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So some of you guys do pay for podcasts, but most people don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just say.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the way that the podcasts are funded is through ads.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you guys, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we are all as listeners, very used to getting things for free.
[SPEAKER_02]: The amount of value that is in podcasting, I mean, let's pat ourselves in the back.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and we're bringing a lot of value right for everybody for free, which we love doing and we do get compensated through ad revenue through our sub-stack revenue.
[SPEAKER_02]: But all of these people are so used to getting such quality information like they are incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're incredible podcasts out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so think about all these people that are listening to podcasts and not necessarily buying.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that could have been the audience that used to buy the audio book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now they're not buying the audio book because they're actually listening to the author not only talk about their subject matter but bring it to life in a foundational context with another really intelligent person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you're giving away the five best tips of your book again,
[SPEAKER_02]: Are people getting that much out of it and then if you go if you do a podcast tour, let's say not only are you on Jay Shetty, you're also on Mel Robbins, you're on you know
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm chair expert, let's just say, for example, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Then people have, that's three to five hours worth of content with you when your audio book could only eight hours long, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think people are also used to the parasolial relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: They also have with creators where there is this expectation that there will be an interaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when we get to the book, it's like, well, this is just a one-way street.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why would I go watch this chair and live school?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it to the podcast when it can be a two-way show?
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of thoughts on this subject matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I made lots of notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another note that I made to myself was I think we're confusing podcasts for traditional media because morning shows used to do big numbers for books and I remember this as an agent like you would have an author on a morning show you go on Amazon like you'd be live watching it climb up the Amazon hourly charts as somebody is on a morning show which is very credible too.
[SPEAKER_02]: watch, podcasts are not traditional media, even though they are marketed as a version of a modern talk show, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: People right now are watching us on YouTube, watch me blather on about this, you know, and which is, which is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this isn't a talk show.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: If people listen to it at different times, even though maybe they're downloading it at a certain time, maybe they're not also listening to it at a certain time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or they're only listening to a certain percentage of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We also don't know necessarily like how much of every episode people are listening to.
[SPEAKER_02]: We know when you guys download it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure I could bug our sponsors to tell us more information about all drilling down, but I don't have that information.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another thought I had as I was making notes to myself was, so again, I think we're kind of talking about like to these big PR movements or moments actually move the needle.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually think they're more for the author brand or the creator brand that it actually is for the book itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because now when this agent goes to sell this person's next book, they get to say this person was on Jay Shetty's podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, to me, it's part of the larger brand building exercise and publishers put so much emphasis on
[SPEAKER_02]: The ROI of this PR hit for this book so that that marketing person can put that on their year end report that we got somebody on Jayshadi and they did this so they can prove to their boss and all these like internal politics and publishing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So certain publishers are better at focusing on the ROI for the author versus just the ROI for the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a huge distinction.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that investment of the author versus just the investment of the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the culture's responsibility to the book versus the brand?
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are things that I think about and it depends on the author, depends on the publisher.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so I actually don't think this is a failure at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think this author does either by any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I think everybody should go read the sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another quote that I really liked from the sub-stack was,
[SPEAKER_02]: Proximity to power does not equal power.
[SPEAKER_02]: Being in collaboration or platform by a big name doesn't just make you a big name.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exposure doesn't give you freedom, money or certainty.
[SPEAKER_02]: We aren't told we need big companies, big names, big media to make it big as an artist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I suspect all of this is actually bullshit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that proximity to power, big companies, big names equals a lot of text from your friends and family.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's good optics.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it looks like success.
[SPEAKER_02]: But looking like success doesn't mean you are successful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like such an incredible theme that CC and I talk about all the time on this show.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so interesting how I had this conversation the other day with the client.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my client was
[SPEAKER_01]: She called me and she was like, should I invest money?
[SPEAKER_01]: She was invited to be on this big platform, not gonna say too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she was like, I'd have to pay for my own travel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Should I pay for it?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first question I asked her was, it depends.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's your goal?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I took a page out of Carly's book and made it about what your goal is.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's your goal to sell blocks, if you're thinking, can the conversion will be whatever, then no.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're thinking it's going to further build your author, Brian, and she's a great brand, then yeah, because it's, it's again, it's about one brick on top of the other, and it'll, you know, you'll at the end of the day, but at the end of a long time, you'll have a house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the city building, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's so many elements in the business is so personal, so interpersonal, and some of these like, quote, quote, bricks were talking about, it's like, our people, right, and how we bond with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Shout out to Amy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also realized we haven't said the name of the book yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Something like contributing to the problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, naming a mechanism is book is called We Need Your Art.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the name of the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: So shout out to Amy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a great title.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need your art.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please go check out the sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Amy McKinney, which is spelled A, M, I, E, M, C, N, E, E. Amy McKinney, yeah, it's very, very warm.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not super long.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like right to the point.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I absolutely adored that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you, Amy, for putting that out of there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see, Amy, anything else on your mind today?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we actually just got our publishers lunch email with big news, big publishing news, but we can talk about that next week, because it'll be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you see?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just switched over to my house.
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of effect, the thing that you're, I know you're thinking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not gonna say it, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we got a lot of juicy stuff to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're rolling into the fall here.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have
[SPEAKER_02]: the numbers from we got the official twenty twenty four publishing numbers publishers lunch also sent that out and we have some some juicy publishing personnel gossip that we will talk about next time I swear this is not just us planting curiosity I swear that you know just arrived okay it actually happened all right see you next week everybody
[SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.