WEBVTT 00:00.171 --> 00:10.719 [SPEAKER_00]: This episode of True's Table is brought to you by our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, True's Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation. 00:11.140 --> 00:12.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Get it where all books are sold. 00:16.150 --> 00:17.491 [SPEAKER_01]: Brothers, y'all all right. 00:17.871 --> 00:21.112 [SPEAKER_01]: If this is your first time at truth's table, welcome to the table. 00:21.312 --> 00:23.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And you've been sitting at the table with us all these years. 00:24.114 --> 00:27.255 [SPEAKER_01]: We are so grateful that you have been listening to us through these years. 00:27.335 --> 00:33.778 [SPEAKER_01]: And we are inviting you to partner with us and support our work at patreon.com slash truth's table. 00:34.078 --> 00:37.000 [SPEAKER_01]: Now pull up a chair and have a seat at the table with us. 00:37.640 --> 00:38.080 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, y'all. 00:38.140 --> 00:39.081 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Tree's Table. 00:39.161 --> 00:40.642 [SPEAKER_01]: Big-wise, a coach for Great to choose. 00:40.762 --> 00:42.402 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a community, and I'm Christina. 00:42.943 --> 00:45.604 [SPEAKER_01]: This table is built by black women and four black women. 00:45.624 --> 00:46.644 [SPEAKER_01]: So welcome to the table. 00:46.684 --> 00:47.705 [SPEAKER_01]: See how you doing, girl? 00:48.445 --> 00:50.966 [SPEAKER_00]: I am doing good on this glorious summer day. 00:50.986 --> 00:52.107 [SPEAKER_00]: It's summer time. 00:52.127 --> 00:52.707 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a community. 00:52.747 --> 00:53.668 [SPEAKER_00]: It's summer time. 00:53.708 --> 00:54.708 [SPEAKER_00]: We got shoulders out. 00:54.728 --> 00:55.669 [SPEAKER_00]: We got bright colors. 00:55.729 --> 00:58.850 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually have brown on, but nevertheless, I think it's never easy to look. 00:58.870 --> 01:00.311 [SPEAKER_00]: I have ankle hip, and I'm bright in my heart. 01:00.811 --> 01:04.313 [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, how's the weather treating you over on that side of the country? 01:04.873 --> 01:06.734 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's, it's come correct now. 01:07.034 --> 01:07.375 [SPEAKER_00]: Good. 01:07.455 --> 01:07.695 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 01:07.795 --> 01:08.996 [SPEAKER_00]: We had complaints. 01:09.476 --> 01:12.038 [SPEAKER_01]: We was going through a little bit. 01:12.058 --> 01:17.861 [SPEAKER_01]: Flash back to October and I was like, ah, that's a sure for our way to have a crash out. 01:18.642 --> 01:20.323 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're, we're good. 01:20.383 --> 01:23.685 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a nice warm, bright, beautiful day. 01:23.725 --> 01:24.605 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm grateful for that. 01:24.946 --> 01:27.007 [SPEAKER_01]: And my, and my attire reflects that. 01:27.287 --> 01:30.370 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, you know, that's when yellow is like one of my favorite colors. 01:30.390 --> 01:31.291 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm here for it. 01:32.051 --> 01:40.199 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, and speaking of a brightness and just sunshine, we are joined today by none other than Dr. Nicole Martin. 01:40.219 --> 01:43.102 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to tell you this is Holy Ghost sunshine right here. 01:43.122 --> 01:46.104 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, imagine that just deep, deep wisdom. 01:46.184 --> 01:48.687 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we got one of our friends with us today. 01:48.707 --> 01:49.568 [SPEAKER_01]: We are so 01:51.770 --> 01:53.492 [SPEAKER_03]: So glad to be with both of you today. 01:53.712 --> 01:54.473 [SPEAKER_03]: So glad. 01:54.833 --> 01:57.776 [SPEAKER_01]: We are so grateful to have you at the table. 01:57.796 --> 01:58.697 [SPEAKER_01]: What does this, though? 01:58.817 --> 02:00.479 [SPEAKER_01]: But just in case. 02:00.859 --> 02:05.444 [SPEAKER_01]: Just in case any of our listeners don't know who the Reverend Dr. Nicole Massey Martin is. 02:05.544 --> 02:07.146 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to tell them a little something. 02:07.186 --> 02:07.306 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 02:08.707 --> 02:12.832 [SPEAKER_01]: Reverend Dr. Nicole Massey Martin was born and educated in Baltimore, Maryland. 02:13.272 --> 02:20.080 [SPEAKER_01]: She graduated Magna Colony from Vanderbilt University with a triple major in human conservation. 02:20.901 --> 02:22.462 [SPEAKER_01]: Educational studies and French. 02:22.542 --> 02:24.024 [SPEAKER_01]: Come on, now I didn't know about French. 02:27.868 --> 02:30.131 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about it. 02:30.431 --> 02:39.402 [SPEAKER_01]: It's Dr. Martin Receive, her master's a divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, and earned a doctor of ministry from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. 02:39.682 --> 02:45.750 [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Martin serves as the chief operating officer at Christianity today, puts it respect on her name. 02:47.791 --> 02:53.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Executive Director of Soul Fire in a National Ministries which accelerates thriving for past researches and younger leaders. 02:53.956 --> 03:00.001 [SPEAKER_01]: She is also active in her local congregation in Maryland at Kingdom Fellowship AME Church where she leads the girl ministry. 03:00.362 --> 03:12.332 [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Mark is a gifted writer and author of numerous articles including three books, nailing it, why successful leadership demands suffering and surrender, empowering women from ministry and leaning in. 03:13.272 --> 03:14.792 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it goes eating in letting go. 03:14.972 --> 03:17.133 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this land devotional blessed me. 03:17.373 --> 03:19.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I just tell her flashback flashback. 03:19.854 --> 03:21.674 [SPEAKER_01]: I got gone through it several times. 03:21.714 --> 03:25.555 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying, okay, okay, so she started on the executive council. 03:25.575 --> 03:29.536 [SPEAKER_01]: I think she started on the executive council of the national association of evangelical advisory council for the salvation army. 03:29.556 --> 03:31.016 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you hook me up with some vintage clothes? 03:46.081 --> 03:52.204 [SPEAKER_01]: She has been inducted into this team board of preachers at Morehouse College. 03:52.685 --> 03:55.846 [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Martin is married to her best friend, Dr. Martin. 03:56.127 --> 03:58.368 [SPEAKER_01]: And they have two amazing daughters. 03:58.448 --> 04:00.069 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the table, Nick. 04:00.309 --> 04:01.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, our system that goes. 04:03.090 --> 04:05.411 [SPEAKER_03]: And thank you for setting the table. 04:05.491 --> 04:07.472 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for hosting the table. 04:08.113 --> 04:13.015 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't tell you how much this table has blessed my life over the years. 04:13.415 --> 04:17.516 [SPEAKER_03]: I never knew I would need you like I do now. 04:18.117 --> 04:19.357 [SPEAKER_03]: Need truth table. 04:19.397 --> 04:20.278 [SPEAKER_03]: We need both of you. 04:20.298 --> 04:27.881 [SPEAKER_03]: And I thank God for your steadfastness and for your commitment to making space for people like me to just show up and be myself. 04:28.281 --> 04:29.001 [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you. 04:29.141 --> 04:30.142 [SPEAKER_03]: I thank God for both of you. 04:31.162 --> 04:33.965 [SPEAKER_00]: We welcome. 04:34.005 --> 04:34.625 [SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome. 04:34.665 --> 04:35.666 [SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome. 04:35.806 --> 04:40.589 [SPEAKER_00]: You've done so much to lead and to serve from a place of just clarity and love. 04:40.630 --> 04:43.672 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a hard combination, clarity and love. 04:43.692 --> 04:47.635 [SPEAKER_00]: So we are so grateful to bring you to the table today. 04:48.215 --> 04:49.276 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we are. 04:49.336 --> 04:54.462 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so, you know, Nicole, I mean so many questions first of all, let me let me lift up the book. 04:55.102 --> 04:55.443 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really? 04:55.463 --> 04:55.603 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. 04:55.623 --> 04:56.103 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:56.324 --> 04:56.704 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:56.724 --> 04:57.064 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:57.265 --> 04:57.685 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:57.765 --> 04:58.166 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:58.226 --> 04:58.566 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:58.586 --> 04:59.066 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:59.287 --> 04:59.807 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 04:59.987 --> 05:00.788 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:00.968 --> 05:01.349 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:01.389 --> 05:01.889 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:01.909 --> 05:02.110 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:02.130 --> 05:02.410 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God. 05:02.510 --> 05:02.870 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:02.890 --> 05:03.351 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:03.371 --> 05:03.651 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God. 05:07.515 --> 05:08.876 [SPEAKER_01]: And you were preaching somebody. 05:09.836 --> 05:12.077 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna preach it somewhere. 05:12.097 --> 05:15.238 [SPEAKER_00]: Listen, talk about the Lord like she loved him. 05:15.599 --> 05:16.039 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 05:16.119 --> 05:16.739 [SPEAKER_00]: I love him now. 05:16.799 --> 05:17.239 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it is real. 05:17.259 --> 05:19.360 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about, if you don't mind talking about, 05:28.324 --> 05:30.886 [SPEAKER_01]: Why you felt compelled to write nailing it? 05:30.926 --> 05:31.686 [SPEAKER_01]: You are busy. 05:32.407 --> 05:35.449 [SPEAKER_01]: I say that because I think books take time. 05:35.969 --> 05:38.011 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to say no to a lot of things. 05:38.391 --> 05:43.054 [SPEAKER_01]: And for them to say yes to writing. 05:43.174 --> 05:49.118 [SPEAKER_01]: And so what compelled you to say, I need to write nailing it now about leadership. 05:49.198 --> 05:53.081 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk to us about what led you to that decision to have this topic? 05:53.541 --> 05:54.021 [SPEAKER_01]: Why this? 05:54.422 --> 05:55.142 [SPEAKER_01]: Why this moment? 05:55.202 --> 05:55.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Why this topic? 05:57.403 --> 06:25.468 [SPEAKER_03]: I knew in twenty nineteen that I was going to write a book on leadership and I started that process in twenty nineteen and I was just mostly writing out of a desire to continue this process of redemptive leadership it's it's it stands counter to traditional leadership that suggests you go up and up and up and up redemptive leadership says you go deep deep deep and you embrace every trial and you embrace every mistake and it helps to shape you and you become editor and that's the process I knew I was going to write but you know 06:26.248 --> 06:30.231 [SPEAKER_03]: if we could all take a moment and think about the ambitious plans we had in twenty-nineteen. 06:31.552 --> 06:39.037 [SPEAKER_03]: I was very excited in twenty-nineteen about writing a book and then twenty-nineteen hit and then my dad became very ill. 06:39.417 --> 06:45.602 [SPEAKER_03]: But the reason why I wanted to write it is because I was tired of alterations. 06:46.142 --> 06:52.751 [SPEAKER_03]: I think in a certain point, you know, you grow up and you recognize I can pull something off the shelf, but I'm going to have to tailor it. 06:52.851 --> 06:57.216 [SPEAKER_03]: And as a woman, as a black woman, I've been tailoring my whole life. 06:57.737 --> 07:02.863 [SPEAKER_03]: I've been taking a book from, you know, one vantage point, and I've tried to hear it. 07:04.405 --> 07:07.047 [SPEAKER_03]: And I take a male Christian leadership book. 07:07.087 --> 07:09.848 [SPEAKER_03]: And I say, yeah, that could work for you, but that doesn't work for me. 07:10.168 --> 07:12.309 [SPEAKER_03]: So let me just trim it here and tailor it here. 07:12.730 --> 07:27.738 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was so exhausted from the mainstream Christian leadership books that were only from one vantage point that I just after crying out to God about it, he was like, well, maybe I made you to do something about it. 07:28.638 --> 07:32.701 [SPEAKER_03]: And there was an interesting point at the early start of the publishing process. 07:33.581 --> 07:40.863 [SPEAKER_03]: I had several people who told me, if you write black women's lessons from leadership, your book will soar. 07:41.423 --> 08:03.028 [SPEAKER_03]: If you write a women's leadership book, you will go so far, but please don't just write a leadership book because the market is too big and the field is too competitive and your voice will get swallowed out by the John Maxwell's and the, you know, Pete Scazeros and the John Orperks, all of these guys that I know 08:04.069 --> 08:09.512 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, God did not call me to write from my vantage point in an explicit way. 08:09.572 --> 08:21.181 [SPEAKER_03]: He called me to write about leadership from a biblical perspective as a black woman and to believe that my vantage point was just as important as the other books that I had read and tailored. 08:21.541 --> 08:22.141 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 08:22.181 --> 08:22.441 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:22.902 --> 08:23.342 [SPEAKER_00]: And it is. 08:26.303 --> 08:27.023 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 08:27.464 --> 08:41.870 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm so grateful that you have you have added your voice in this way and this written way to the the larger discourse about about ethical leadership, which I believe there is a place for many voices. 08:42.290 --> 08:44.391 [SPEAKER_00]: many different backgrounds to speak up. 08:44.431 --> 08:46.993 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a topic that's near and dear to my heart, ethical leadership. 08:47.073 --> 08:50.375 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I am grateful for your voice. 08:50.635 --> 08:56.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And the book nailing it, let me tell you something. 08:57.540 --> 09:01.602 [SPEAKER_00]: So much so much to be sad about that imagery and that the reality of it. 09:01.862 --> 09:05.064 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about the decision and that such a preacher thing to do. 09:05.384 --> 09:10.788 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about the decision to center around this imagery that takes us to the cross. 09:11.350 --> 09:11.710 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 09:12.031 --> 09:14.312 [SPEAKER_00]: And the cost, the cost of leading. 09:14.832 --> 09:15.073 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 09:15.993 --> 09:17.754 [SPEAKER_03]: Going back to the burden of writing. 09:18.195 --> 09:23.098 [SPEAKER_03]: I think the added burden that I had was this idea that leadership is always successful. 09:23.158 --> 09:24.659 [SPEAKER_03]: It's always a joy. 09:24.719 --> 09:26.260 [SPEAKER_03]: It's always easy work. 09:26.820 --> 09:36.247 [SPEAKER_03]: And part of that was attached to what I found was a prevailing theology when I really started listening of resurrection at the expense of crucifixion. 09:36.847 --> 09:54.659 [SPEAKER_03]: so it was every day is your next best day and we're more than conquerors and every round goes higher and when you even in the altar calls when you come to Jesus your life will get better and everything is great well but don't discount the calling of Christ to take up your cross 09:55.319 --> 09:56.120 [SPEAKER_03]: and follow him. 09:56.560 --> 10:02.526 [SPEAKER_03]: And the reason why we get to say that we will wear a crown is because we've carried across. 10:02.866 --> 10:19.781 [SPEAKER_03]: So it just seemed like these prevailing headwinds of triumphalism and exceptionalism and an over kind of resurrection glory that came almost erasing the trauma and the pain and the tragedy and the necessity of the cross. 10:20.261 --> 10:21.522 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I was trying to highlight. 10:21.542 --> 10:24.805 [SPEAKER_03]: If you really want to lead, it's not going to be an easy road. 10:24.845 --> 10:31.411 [SPEAKER_03]: You are taking up your cross so that God can be glorified, and people can be healed by the way they lean. 10:31.892 --> 10:33.333 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't look away from the cross. 10:33.573 --> 10:34.374 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's right. 10:34.394 --> 10:35.035 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. 10:35.055 --> 10:35.896 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 10:36.036 --> 10:36.816 [SPEAKER_00]: We must behold it. 10:36.836 --> 10:37.657 [SPEAKER_03]: We must behold it. 10:37.797 --> 10:38.098 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 10:38.738 --> 10:43.343 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know that one thing about writing 10:44.123 --> 10:48.708 [SPEAKER_01]: or preaching or any of that is that often times if you ride in a sermon that sermon writes you. 10:49.049 --> 10:51.111 [SPEAKER_01]: If you let us, that's it. 10:51.171 --> 10:59.741 [SPEAKER_01]: Look, if you, like you know, um, you know, can you talk about even just attention, you know, of what it meant to 11:01.022 --> 11:07.964 [SPEAKER_01]: to write, you know, this book in some way, in what ways did this book challenge you, stress you? 11:08.425 --> 11:08.725 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 11:08.945 --> 11:13.206 [SPEAKER_01]: And then now that it's out in the world, can you talk about what it means to talk about it? 11:13.346 --> 11:18.068 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because we were talking about, you know, before we recorded, I like, which one was your preference? 11:18.088 --> 11:20.589 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it the right thing we did the speaking or yeah? 11:20.609 --> 11:23.409 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, um, you know, and so can you talk about that? 11:23.530 --> 11:27.051 [SPEAKER_01]: And just like, the heart is right, the good of that. 11:28.437 --> 11:41.964 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, when I, when I first started writing, and I was actually talking to Dr. Serita Lyons about this, when I first started writing, I kept hitting roadblocks because I found myself writing my defense. 11:42.704 --> 11:51.329 [SPEAKER_03]: I was writing, but I was writing to all the people who would say I didn't deserve to say what I said, and I didn't have a right to write how I wrote in fact. 11:51.929 --> 11:55.811 [SPEAKER_03]: In the early stages, it took me a long time just to get 11:56.331 --> 12:04.133 [SPEAKER_03]: a few paragraphs out because all I was thinking about was why, why in the world do I have the right to write about power? 12:04.693 --> 12:15.676 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would think about like just this unfortunate reality that I've heard from many sociologists that women tend to wait until we feel a hundred percent confident before we go out there. 12:16.076 --> 12:18.698 [SPEAKER_03]: and then tend to be less confident, but they get out there anyway. 12:19.299 --> 12:23.562 [SPEAKER_03]: Every single time I'd write something like on ego or performance, I'd be like, is that right? 12:23.822 --> 12:24.763 [SPEAKER_03]: Am I a hundred percent right? 12:24.983 --> 12:25.824 [SPEAKER_03]: Is this what I stand by? 12:26.084 --> 12:27.545 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would second guess myself. 12:27.805 --> 12:29.686 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I would picture my haters in the room. 12:29.927 --> 12:31.268 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say, well, what would I say? 12:31.288 --> 12:33.249 [SPEAKER_03]: Not to go to that person. 12:33.509 --> 12:36.572 [SPEAKER_03]: When they read this sentence, they're going to say that I was wrong. 12:36.972 --> 12:40.314 [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember, I said it out loud once in my husband, Mark, and he was like, 12:41.302 --> 12:42.703 [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, they ain't gonna reach a book. 12:44.364 --> 12:45.706 [SPEAKER_03]: This is not writing. 12:46.726 --> 12:47.887 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not gonna read it. 12:48.007 --> 12:51.810 [SPEAKER_03]: And then he said, second of all, lean into the tension. 12:51.870 --> 12:52.631 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't hide it. 12:53.091 --> 12:55.273 [SPEAKER_03]: Bill can be saying, you know what? 12:55.473 --> 12:58.896 [SPEAKER_03]: Some people need to be told that they have to reduce their sense of ego. 12:59.156 --> 13:01.578 [SPEAKER_03]: And some people need to be told that they have to increase theirs. 13:01.998 --> 13:04.981 [SPEAKER_03]: Let that be part of the joy of the book. 13:05.061 --> 13:08.203 [SPEAKER_03]: This is what a custom-made suit feels like. 13:08.383 --> 13:09.724 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not the same for all of us. 13:10.645 --> 13:19.633 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I can tell you writing that and writing it in an excruciating way, which was a hard enough itself was so much easier than talking about it. 13:22.076 --> 13:22.816 [SPEAKER_03]: Talk about that. 13:23.316 --> 13:24.037 [SPEAKER_03]: Talk about it. 13:24.357 --> 13:29.740 [SPEAKER_03]: So, so I hate to describe it this way, but I now know I don't have any other metaphor. 13:30.621 --> 13:45.050 [SPEAKER_03]: When I first got pregnant with our first child, I went through a birth and class, and they were talking about what might happen on the table, and I was like, oh my god, no, because I have a playlist, and I have all of the things I know are going to happen, and I'm fully in control. 13:46.691 --> 13:48.953 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, never, ever happens that way. 13:49.113 --> 13:50.233 [SPEAKER_03]: It never, ever happens that way. 13:50.754 --> 14:02.382 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I have birthed a book and it's just laying there on the table and it's gross looking and messy and I look a hot mess and might even be some other stuff down the table, some blood and some other thing. 14:03.142 --> 14:10.688 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like while I'm sweating and just having just released this thing into the world, I'm asking people, hey, what do you think? 14:11.328 --> 14:12.689 [SPEAKER_03]: Does the book sound okay? 14:12.949 --> 14:13.670 [SPEAKER_03]: Does it look okay? 14:13.690 --> 14:14.550 [SPEAKER_03]: Do I look okay? 14:14.931 --> 14:21.295 [SPEAKER_03]: When I know, this process was messy and is still ongoing. 14:21.635 --> 14:23.777 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's all I get. 14:25.718 --> 14:26.699 [SPEAKER_03]: They've seen it every day. 14:28.340 --> 14:33.144 [SPEAKER_03]: Everything, just like wide out, just out there like, like, what do you see? 14:34.605 --> 14:36.106 [SPEAKER_00]: Look, no cameras, no cameras. 14:38.242 --> 14:41.685 [SPEAKER_00]: No camera. 14:41.745 --> 14:49.912 [SPEAKER_00]: But I will tell you, Dr. Nicole, the theme of the integrity in the standard in which you show up with. 14:51.794 --> 14:51.994 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 14:52.014 --> 14:57.699 [SPEAKER_00]: So there is a, there is the necessity for high integrity leadership. 14:57.959 --> 15:00.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, at high integrity leaders, which 15:01.793 --> 15:02.474 [SPEAKER_00]: They ought to be. 15:02.854 --> 15:03.114 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 15:03.595 --> 15:08.018 [SPEAKER_00]: Also our leaders who wear a heavy burden of perfectionism. 15:08.338 --> 15:08.799 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 15:09.519 --> 15:09.780 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 15:09.840 --> 15:10.040 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 15:10.100 --> 15:10.380 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 15:10.960 --> 15:24.892 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you've been in ministry for even a teaspoon of time, just been an industry or just been among the leaders, you have seen just amazing things and you've also seen incredibly disappointing realities, who would also rather 15:25.512 --> 15:39.365 [SPEAKER_00]: intensifies that sense of like, I must have integrity, which makes sense to me when I hear your wrestling, what I would call the pressure of performance writing this book. 15:39.686 --> 15:45.932 [SPEAKER_00]: How did this book help you as you move to the other side of the pressure of performance? 15:46.352 --> 15:53.234 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you for framing it that way because even as I was the first chapter I wrote was performance. 15:54.075 --> 16:00.277 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I was reading a book on how to write well and one of the tips was like, just start where you feel excitement. 16:00.757 --> 16:02.178 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to start with chapter one. 16:02.698 --> 16:08.680 [SPEAKER_03]: My first chapter was performance because I had to make a mental shift on who was on my stage. 16:09.480 --> 16:14.621 [SPEAKER_03]: I recognized that I often put the naysayers on the stage. 16:14.681 --> 16:19.383 [SPEAKER_03]: And part of that is just, you know, how I made, I woo is one of my top five. 16:19.723 --> 16:22.483 [SPEAKER_03]: I will always look for the person that I think done like me. 16:22.523 --> 16:23.604 [SPEAKER_03]: And I will try when them over. 16:23.704 --> 16:25.644 [SPEAKER_03]: I hate that about myself, but that's how God made me. 16:25.964 --> 16:28.165 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so sweet. 16:29.165 --> 16:31.186 [SPEAKER_03]: My God, my God, my God. 16:31.406 --> 16:32.026 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much. 16:32.266 --> 16:33.366 [SPEAKER_03]: My husband is not like that. 16:33.426 --> 16:34.486 [SPEAKER_03]: My best friend is not like that. 16:34.546 --> 16:35.747 [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody in my life is like that. 16:35.787 --> 16:36.127 [SPEAKER_03]: They're like, 16:38.287 --> 16:39.248 [SPEAKER_03]: That's just how I'm wired. 16:39.288 --> 16:47.509 [SPEAKER_03]: So when I was writing, I had to develop a discipline of taking those people off the stage and just putting Jesus. 16:48.110 --> 16:50.650 [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus who knows me, Jesus who loves me. 16:50.670 --> 16:57.792 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I put Jesus at the center of the stage or in the center first row of the audience, 16:58.432 --> 17:02.995 [SPEAKER_03]: The writing of the book for me became easier because then it was a dance. 17:03.035 --> 17:03.896 [SPEAKER_03]: It was an exchange. 17:03.936 --> 17:07.258 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, oh, I like what you said, Lord, what do you think? 17:07.338 --> 17:11.121 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just, it became conversational and less performative. 17:11.681 --> 17:22.429 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where I have to, this is where the marketing part becomes hard because if I'm not careful, I'll be very prone to put that one negative comment on the stage and say, this is what everybody thinks. 17:22.949 --> 17:25.416 [SPEAKER_03]: When really Jesus is like, no, no, no, you didn't write that for them. 17:25.456 --> 17:30.070 [SPEAKER_03]: You wrote it for me for my good pleasure and for my will and that's where I'm trying to stay. 17:31.457 --> 17:36.640 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that, you know, it's like, um, you know, because the reality is that hate is going to hit. 17:37.200 --> 17:40.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, listen, listen, you got a PhD in it. 17:41.222 --> 17:43.403 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, that hate is going to hit. 17:43.423 --> 17:48.726 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they were, you know, a person of dissension and discordal always find something. 17:48.746 --> 17:48.826 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:48.846 --> 17:51.887 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, I mean, there's just you just no way. 17:51.907 --> 17:54.268 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes the hatred is tied to the 17:56.842 --> 17:59.343 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a trigger response to the excellence. 17:59.663 --> 18:00.524 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 18:00.824 --> 18:04.346 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying that people shouldn't take a complaint that could be really valid, right? 18:04.406 --> 18:06.828 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we should be seeing that for our own sharpening. 18:07.048 --> 18:09.750 [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes it is because you are doing the right thing. 18:09.790 --> 18:11.311 [SPEAKER_00]: It is because you are showing up. 18:11.351 --> 18:14.893 [SPEAKER_00]: It is because you have integrity that you experience. 18:14.933 --> 18:15.893 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey man. 18:17.054 --> 18:22.916 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know, speaking of that performance, you know, I know that that's a that's a real issue. 18:22.956 --> 18:30.159 [SPEAKER_01]: I think for quite a few that perfectionism that performance, you know, for many black women, I'm self included. 18:30.639 --> 18:37.842 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I, you know, I'm curious about what with regard to your book, nailing it, how the gospel 18:39.363 --> 18:43.845 [SPEAKER_01]: offers liberation to high achieving black women, right? 18:43.865 --> 18:46.066 [SPEAKER_01]: Who have this perfectionist? 18:46.126 --> 18:46.646 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 18:47.387 --> 18:55.631 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, anxiety, driven, you know, uh, test mask, but technically right. 18:56.051 --> 19:04.496 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, what is the, what is the, what's the liberty of giving that, that alien, it is offering to black women like myself? 19:04.996 --> 19:08.719 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and myself. 19:09.420 --> 19:17.046 [SPEAKER_03]: This process again has resurfaced for me, the reality that I carry more burdens than I care to name. 19:17.206 --> 19:22.951 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, isn't this what the Shokhanar Barnes book to have you yoke? 19:23.732 --> 19:39.894 [SPEAKER_03]: I have recognized that I'm often carrying yokes that are not mine and I'm often carrying burdens that have been passed down or that I've assumed just because I felt like I should. 19:41.255 --> 19:54.905 [SPEAKER_03]: But I've also found that this is what fellowship of sufferings look like when I cling to the cross, I get to take on the burden of Jesus and the Yoke of Christ, which is easy and light. 19:55.265 --> 19:58.267 [SPEAKER_03]: And that has been even today that has been my prayer. 19:58.647 --> 20:03.612 [SPEAKER_03]: when I start to feel the burden of what it feels like to be a black woman in predominantly white spaces. 20:04.012 --> 20:12.620 [SPEAKER_03]: When I feel the burdens of what it means to be the only one asked where are my kids when everybody else in the room is a parent and a man, but no one asks them about their kids. 20:12.640 --> 20:16.104 [SPEAKER_03]: They're asking me as if I've abandoned my children to do the Lord's work. 20:16.624 --> 20:21.229 [SPEAKER_03]: When I feel those burdens when people wonder, does your husband know that you're doing this? 20:21.369 --> 20:23.471 [SPEAKER_03]: Which is a common question that people ask? 20:24.051 --> 20:27.093 [SPEAKER_03]: or they'll ask, you know, what are my plans for my children this summer? 20:27.413 --> 20:31.856 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I respond to camp, there's kind of a stink guy like, oh, do you mean you're not homeschooling them? 20:31.876 --> 20:34.858 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you mean you're not taking them through the adventures of the forest? 20:35.958 --> 20:36.279 [SPEAKER_03]: No. 20:38.100 --> 20:38.600 [SPEAKER_03]: No. 20:39.440 --> 20:43.003 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's a regular reminder to me. 20:43.903 --> 21:02.449 [SPEAKER_03]: that it's really easy for people to put yokes and burdens on me that are not really easy for them to project it and for me to take it and be it is really easy for me to think that coming closer to Christ is harder than taking on the burdens of the world and I have to regularly resist that. 21:02.949 --> 21:12.431 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to believe that his word is true, that if I cling to the cross, I will find in Christ an easy yoke and a light burden. 21:12.891 --> 21:23.614 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that I will be unburdened, but that when I cling to Christ, he will grace me in that burden, that what other people think is hard will be easy for me because I'm doing it through Christ. 21:24.294 --> 21:25.915 [SPEAKER_03]: I was literally praying that today. 21:25.995 --> 21:34.941 [SPEAKER_03]: Lord, give me the grace to carry your yoke in a way that feels easy, and to carry your burden in a way that feels light. 21:35.921 --> 21:37.282 [SPEAKER_03]: Out that, then we'll be crushed. 21:39.624 --> 21:47.909 [SPEAKER_00]: As I was listening to you, I was thinking how, you know, if dressed up legalism and being bound as your brand, 21:48.832 --> 21:50.433 [SPEAKER_00]: than other people's freedom. 21:50.874 --> 21:52.114 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about it. 21:52.275 --> 21:54.636 [SPEAKER_00]: It will drive you, Betty. 21:55.097 --> 21:56.878 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it wants you destroy it. 21:56.898 --> 21:57.879 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 21:58.339 --> 22:08.447 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, even those questions of curiosity, sometimes are stated when the brand is I'm bound, you must join with these chains. 22:09.467 --> 22:11.849 [SPEAKER_00]: And instead of saying, like, where'd you get this freedom from? 22:11.949 --> 22:12.570 [SPEAKER_00]: I need some too. 22:13.108 --> 22:15.229 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, that's right. 22:15.669 --> 22:17.550 [SPEAKER_03]: I know a way too many people that have that. 22:17.910 --> 22:37.240 [SPEAKER_03]: And it is classic misery loves company because if I carry this burden and it makes me bitter and I know you and you ought to carry the same burden, but you're not bitter, then not only am I going to call your joint think, but I'm going to tell you to get out of my way because you've threatened what I have accepted. 22:37.660 --> 22:42.882 [SPEAKER_03]: This is like the active resistance and this is the joy of being a black woman today. 22:42.982 --> 22:52.665 [SPEAKER_03]: We have learned if we're willing to the tools of active joy filled gospel centered resistance against the burdens of the world because they're there. 22:55.626 --> 22:57.767 [SPEAKER_03]: God can grace us to carry them lightly. 22:57.787 --> 22:58.627 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I want to do. 22:59.147 --> 22:59.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 22:59.868 --> 23:00.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 23:00.668 --> 23:09.031 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to meditate on what it means to acknowledge the burdens and to carry them lightly in Christ as we take a short break. 23:09.171 --> 23:14.033 [SPEAKER_00]: And we will be right back with Dr. Nicole Martin teaching us about nailing it. 23:14.253 --> 23:15.714 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't get her book while you on this break. 23:20.796 --> 23:30.286 [SPEAKER_00]: Our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, Truth Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation, is making waves and shifting culture. 23:31.067 --> 23:38.335 [SPEAKER_00]: I close this book feeling like I had just partaken in a multi-course meal, filled with grace and the courage to carry on. 23:39.216 --> 23:42.160 [SPEAKER_00]: and I believe you'll finish this book feeling the same way. 23:42.841 --> 23:45.203 [SPEAKER_00]: Morgan Harper Nichols artists in Poet. 23:45.744 --> 23:52.753 [SPEAKER_00]: By Truth's Table, black women's musings on life-loving liberation, at our website, or wherever books are sold. 23:54.466 --> 23:57.409 [SPEAKER_00]: As you can see, we're not good for asking. 23:57.449 --> 24:04.577 [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking for money today and for us to bring the concept that we've been bringing to you for years at this point. 24:04.677 --> 24:15.328 [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a whole background of folks who are talented and gifted and loving people who we have to pay to make these things happen as well as ourselves and we want to keep bringing great content to you. 24:15.948 --> 24:19.011 [SPEAKER_00]: We are in a desert of truth right now. 24:19.031 --> 24:22.074 [SPEAKER_00]: There seems to be lots of lies happening last night. 24:22.094 --> 24:31.003 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you support the idea of promoting security in any way, shape or form, we invite you to partner with true staple and become one of our Patreon supporters. 24:31.183 --> 24:37.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, actually, when you become a support, you actually get the episodes a couple days before the rest of the world. 24:37.487 --> 24:41.670 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you get speak to, you know, of course, communicate with us. 24:41.710 --> 24:43.311 [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know your thoughts about that episode. 24:43.631 --> 24:48.935 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we will be having some more on private discussions about things going on in pop culture. 24:54.038 --> 24:55.279 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing's figment in my imagination. 24:55.359 --> 24:56.040 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing to say. 24:56.240 --> 24:57.361 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking about the things. 24:57.381 --> 24:57.781 [SPEAKER_01]: So wait for it. 24:57.881 --> 24:59.322 [SPEAKER_01]: Join our community today. 24:59.382 --> 25:01.844 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for your for sitting at the table with us all these years. 25:02.384 --> 25:02.685 [SPEAKER_01]: Bye, y'all. 25:03.265 --> 25:03.825 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, y'all. 25:03.865 --> 25:09.149 [SPEAKER_01]: We are back at the table talking to our good six forever in Dr. Nicole Massey. 25:09.229 --> 25:11.671 [SPEAKER_01]: Martin, author up, nailing it. 25:11.811 --> 25:12.232 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay? 25:12.592 --> 25:14.874 [SPEAKER_01]: Why is a social leadership demand suffering? 25:15.494 --> 25:17.637 [SPEAKER_01]: and surrender, make sure y'all buy this book. 25:17.697 --> 25:23.484 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so because we need some leaders with ethics and integrity. 25:23.504 --> 25:25.226 [SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to honor God. 25:25.486 --> 25:27.208 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is very whatever you mean. 25:27.228 --> 25:29.671 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean? 25:29.691 --> 25:32.675 [SPEAKER_01]: In twenty twenty five, there's leaders that are bound with integrity. 25:35.618 --> 25:39.340 [SPEAKER_01]: As is our custom in the behind the book, you know, um, episode. 25:39.420 --> 25:43.642 [SPEAKER_01]: I always love to read the words of the author back to back to the author today. 25:43.682 --> 25:46.083 [SPEAKER_00]: You can, this is the committee's reading rainbow moment. 25:48.444 --> 25:54.527 [SPEAKER_00]: We did not deny dreams at the table, so she's going to read this back to you. 25:54.667 --> 25:56.008 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm reading rainbow. 25:56.068 --> 25:56.348 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 25:56.368 --> 25:59.990 [SPEAKER_01]: So listen, I am reading from the crucifying power. 26:00.913 --> 26:02.035 [SPEAKER_01]: Chapter, okay? 26:02.777 --> 26:05.402 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, under exchanging our power for gods. 26:06.243 --> 26:19.028 [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever Christian leaders recognize the source of their power restoring it to God and then give it away and powering others, they tap into a triune power with divine force that is unlike anything in this world. 26:19.568 --> 26:23.930 [SPEAKER_01]: After all, eternal impact can only come from the power and will of God. 26:24.450 --> 26:35.115 [SPEAKER_01]: For leaders seeking to make this kind of lasting impact, it will require a regular, intentional process of restoring and giving and repurposing power for God's glory and not our own. 26:35.935 --> 26:48.301 [SPEAKER_01]: regardless of the context in which we serve, the resurrection of divine power can only, the resurrection of divine power can only come from the crucifixion of human power as we once perceived it. 26:48.442 --> 26:54.905 [SPEAKER_01]: Following the model of Jesus, this involves a regular process of identifying our power bases and then surrendering 26:55.385 --> 27:01.391 [SPEAKER_01]: our words, our will, and our works in a way in ways that honor God and empower others. 27:02.252 --> 27:05.175 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that is a very, very powerful excerpt. 27:05.195 --> 27:07.958 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk about just unpack that for us? 27:08.139 --> 27:16.627 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, resurrection, power, and identifying power bases and please teach us. 27:17.849 --> 27:31.298 [SPEAKER_03]: This was probably the hardest chapter for me to write mostly because I am well aware of the moments times and positions in my life where I have had some level of power and still felt powerless. 27:32.098 --> 27:42.806 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was so aware of the times when I would read traditional leadership books, predominantly from white men, that assumed a level of power that I never felt I had. 27:43.566 --> 27:46.047 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, I was wrestling with God. 27:46.167 --> 27:49.329 [SPEAKER_03]: God, you have given us power. 27:49.429 --> 27:50.490 [SPEAKER_03]: Isn't this acts one? 27:50.530 --> 27:53.631 [SPEAKER_03]: Behold, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. 27:54.071 --> 28:07.118 [SPEAKER_03]: So if God has given us power through the Holy Spirit, then how do I navigate that in leadership, when even when I have the position of power, power, I can still be made to feel powerless. 28:07.718 --> 28:14.083 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was wrestling with all of that and that's when I came to Raven and French's six power of bases of power. 28:14.563 --> 28:20.107 [SPEAKER_03]: So they talk about power bases and I was like, all right, that could be a way to describe how all of us have power. 28:20.507 --> 28:23.069 [SPEAKER_03]: You might have legitimate power because you were the CEO. 28:23.409 --> 28:26.291 [SPEAKER_03]: You might have referential power because you've been on the team for twenty years. 28:26.632 --> 28:31.175 [SPEAKER_03]: You might have informational power because you know the right things or the people to make the decision. 28:31.595 --> 28:35.098 [SPEAKER_03]: So every single one of us has a power base and I felt like, all right, 28:35.518 --> 28:40.924 [SPEAKER_03]: That's good application of the Word of God that everybody beyond a shadow of a doubt has power. 28:41.705 --> 28:48.292 [SPEAKER_03]: But how do we navigate that in a way that brings glory to God for the good of the team? 28:48.593 --> 28:50.595 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where we have to kind of new on to it. 28:51.075 --> 28:57.438 [SPEAKER_03]: because when you infiltrate privilege in power, then you have another dynamic. 28:57.918 --> 29:07.682 [SPEAKER_03]: So I have had positions of legitimate power, but someone else has influential power because of their privilege and they're able to throw a decision. 29:08.282 --> 29:12.804 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's when I was thinking, okay, how do we reconcile what this looks like? 29:13.364 --> 29:26.048 [SPEAKER_03]: And the only answer for me was to return every bit of power back to God, meaning whether I have legitimate power or informational power or whatever my power base is, I return that to God. 29:26.088 --> 29:29.389 [SPEAKER_03]: God, I have the position, but the position belongs to you. 29:29.489 --> 29:32.030 [SPEAKER_03]: I have the influence, but the influence belongs to you. 29:32.090 --> 29:33.411 [SPEAKER_03]: Now help me, God. 29:34.031 --> 29:43.794 [SPEAKER_03]: to walk out power for your good and now God gives me power to empower others because the ultimate display of power isn't my ability to hoard it. 29:44.235 --> 29:50.637 [SPEAKER_03]: It's my ability for others around me to feel like because of Nicole's leadership, I felt empowered to do my job. 29:51.057 --> 29:54.599 [SPEAKER_03]: because she sat at the board meeting, I felt empowered to speak. 29:55.039 --> 29:57.220 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's where I think we wanted to get. 29:57.660 --> 30:07.985 [SPEAKER_03]: And it is not an easy thing because depending on where your power base is, your guidance on how to use diffuse that power is going to be different. 30:08.585 --> 30:17.114 [SPEAKER_03]: And you cannot continue to tell people who have in society always been in a position of powerlessness that they need to just abandon our power. 30:17.154 --> 30:18.375 [SPEAKER_03]: That's not the right message. 30:18.835 --> 30:20.917 [SPEAKER_03]: And you can't keep telling people in power. 30:21.418 --> 30:26.202 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, just continue to build it and just walk in it because that might even be detrimental to their teams. 30:26.883 --> 30:28.425 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a balancing act. 30:28.485 --> 30:34.614 [SPEAKER_03]: It's more like a matrix of how do you take your top level in your side levels and make sure that they are aligned for God's glory. 30:34.674 --> 30:37.998 [SPEAKER_03]: But the sum answer is it has to be given back to God. 30:38.479 --> 30:39.921 [SPEAKER_03]: It has to be surrendered to God. 30:40.301 --> 30:42.665 [SPEAKER_03]: And then God will give us grace to empower others. 30:45.049 --> 30:55.734 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's so good to remind us that, you know, righteous power, not even like stolen or colonized power, but righteous power is just stewarded and not horded. 30:56.995 --> 31:09.501 [SPEAKER_00]: And just how critically important that it's, I think you could feel like, you know, you've walked a noble race and you're being upstanding and that same type of high integrity leader can still be tempted. 31:09.921 --> 31:15.972 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you hoard power based on their unresolved issues and they're in their experiences before, right? 31:16.012 --> 31:19.137 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just a really helpful godly reminder for us. 31:19.578 --> 31:22.102 [SPEAKER_00]: So I gotta tell you, I do not like to suffer. 31:24.452 --> 31:25.954 [SPEAKER_03]: Neither do you want. 31:26.014 --> 31:28.136 [SPEAKER_00]: I just put my favorite genre. 31:28.176 --> 31:34.383 [SPEAKER_00]: I just find it to be over the top and exhausting and I'm just over it. 31:34.924 --> 31:40.951 [SPEAKER_00]: And I often tell people if I'm mentoring a counseling or just talking with friends, I'm always like, look, your pieces on the table pick it up. 31:41.071 --> 31:42.253 [SPEAKER_00]: If joy is on the table, we pick it up. 31:42.313 --> 31:44.175 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we don't, we don't choose to pick up. 31:44.475 --> 31:45.756 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all right. 31:45.776 --> 31:48.038 [SPEAKER_00]: But you don't come to get you, but we don't choose a thing. 31:48.098 --> 31:49.639 [SPEAKER_00]: Even Jesus is like, it just can't pass. 31:49.679 --> 31:50.580 [SPEAKER_00]: Let it pass forward. 31:50.620 --> 31:50.900 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 31:50.980 --> 31:51.240 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 31:51.320 --> 31:53.682 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is our model of life, right? 31:53.742 --> 32:00.227 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, but yet, yet, right at the heart of this book, is that we must go through to get to. 32:00.688 --> 32:01.188 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 32:01.308 --> 32:02.749 [SPEAKER_00]: We must go through that. 32:03.089 --> 32:06.892 [SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder for you, if you would share with us, even when I began talking about that, 32:07.933 --> 32:27.732 [SPEAKER_00]: What is something for you that you can look back on or maybe even in this moment that you know I I'm going to have to go through this get to that and maybe something you've already kind of gone through in the past that you would be willing to share with us and the lessons learned in the going through to get to 32:28.225 --> 32:28.785 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 32:29.706 --> 32:33.287 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say the keyword in the suffering is surrender. 32:34.008 --> 32:34.948 [SPEAKER_03]: It has to be. 32:35.428 --> 32:41.251 [SPEAKER_03]: So I remember a time I was working with non-profit organization. 32:41.271 --> 32:45.233 [SPEAKER_03]: We were very excited about moving change and making impact. 32:45.273 --> 32:47.454 [SPEAKER_03]: I was just promoted to lead a team. 32:48.014 --> 32:51.636 [SPEAKER_03]: And I spent the first six to eight weeks just listening. 32:51.716 --> 32:52.937 [SPEAKER_03]: I met with every team. 32:52.997 --> 32:54.197 [SPEAKER_03]: I met with every team member. 32:54.257 --> 32:55.278 [SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted to listen. 32:55.858 --> 33:03.183 [SPEAKER_03]: And after listening to everyone, I recognize we are actually perfectly positioned to make significant change right now. 33:03.243 --> 33:12.289 [SPEAKER_03]: So we go through this massive strategy process and, you know, we're building things and when I was in the meetings and we're having building strategy, I thought to myself, 33:12.849 --> 33:13.669 [SPEAKER_03]: This is it. 33:13.729 --> 33:15.610 [SPEAKER_03]: This is what I was made to do. 33:16.110 --> 33:23.512 [SPEAKER_03]: But I skipped the step of getting buy-in from the right people over me as I was building the change. 33:23.872 --> 33:29.653 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would build the change and I had a presentation and I would share with my boss and he was like, and where did this come from? 33:29.833 --> 33:31.273 [SPEAKER_03]: And who's vision is this? 33:31.593 --> 33:33.514 [SPEAKER_03]: And how did this get initiated? 33:33.954 --> 33:42.016 [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought to myself, okay, we'll go back and long story short over months of this kind of iterating process. 33:42.936 --> 33:45.217 [SPEAKER_03]: What I thought was at stake was untrue. 33:45.558 --> 33:53.282 [SPEAKER_03]: I thought, I was going through the process to make the team better, but really I was going through the process to prove that I could do the job. 33:53.742 --> 33:55.503 [SPEAKER_03]: And I had to just admit it to myself. 33:55.523 --> 33:58.905 [SPEAKER_03]: So every time I got pushed back, I felt it personally. 33:59.426 --> 34:03.348 [SPEAKER_03]: Every time the direction changed, I felt incapable of doing the job. 34:04.028 --> 34:12.232 [SPEAKER_03]: Every single time I tried to drive this as my calling and my purpose, when there was a setback, it became personal for me. 34:12.492 --> 34:18.836 [SPEAKER_03]: And I started to think, can I ever be successful in life, forget being successful in this, in this job? 34:19.336 --> 34:22.577 [SPEAKER_03]: And thankfully, we were able to make great strides in that. 34:22.598 --> 34:30.802 [SPEAKER_03]: And I transitioned out and found a new role, but I would say, even now, I'm learning how to surrender, 34:31.722 --> 34:38.204 [SPEAKER_03]: early and often so that I can carry whatever the suffering of leadership may bring. 34:38.684 --> 34:41.504 [SPEAKER_03]: Because change never comes without suffering. 34:41.665 --> 34:43.865 [SPEAKER_03]: I hate that, but it is true. 34:45.145 --> 34:47.066 [SPEAKER_03]: You can look through the chronicles of history. 34:47.346 --> 34:55.148 [SPEAKER_03]: There has never been a significant societal change or communal change without somebody suffering. 34:55.608 --> 35:00.529 [SPEAKER_03]: So if I feel cold to make change and I do, I am going to suffer. 35:00.990 --> 35:04.371 [SPEAKER_03]: But the question is, am I going to suffer because I'm trying to prove myself? 35:05.151 --> 35:19.775 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in a suffer because I want to tell everybody how great I am or prove that I belong at the table or am I going to suffer because I have fully surrendered my gifts, my life, my personality, my skill sets to the Lord. 35:20.435 --> 35:23.056 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm suffering because I feel called by God. 35:23.416 --> 35:28.918 [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus suffers in the wilderness because He is led by the Spirit to do. 35:29.699 --> 35:34.640 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's long as I'm led by the Spirit, then I can endure that suffering. 35:34.700 --> 35:41.623 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, leadership does require a giving up, which is in itself a measure of suffering. 35:42.195 --> 35:42.875 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 35:43.195 --> 35:43.515 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. 35:43.935 --> 35:49.417 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, um, you know, it's just, I love how you brought in and talk about how Jesus was led in. 35:50.077 --> 35:54.058 [SPEAKER_01]: It's led into that suffering by the spirit of God, right? 35:54.218 --> 35:54.878 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 35:54.938 --> 35:55.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 35:55.218 --> 36:06.121 [SPEAKER_01]: That always led in, you know, and I'm curious for you with the many roles, you know, of of the pastoral anointing. 36:06.901 --> 36:15.705 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, on your life, the preaching ministry that you have, your role as COO, mother, wife, sister, friend, all the things. 36:15.725 --> 36:27.690 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, author, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. 36:28.190 --> 36:44.848 [SPEAKER_01]: all the titles, but to my beloved, Sandra, yes, you know, how have what, what spiritual disciplines, what has your prayer life, is spiritual disciplines look like for you to hold on to your own worth, but also to be very, 36:49.285 --> 36:58.595 [SPEAKER_01]: assured about the calling on your life, because oftentimes some people feel like, okay, I have this role, this job role. 36:58.636 --> 37:00.958 [SPEAKER_01]: And because I have that now, I must shut down. 37:00.978 --> 37:03.281 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, other things, right? 37:04.002 --> 37:04.782 [SPEAKER_01]: In order to 37:05.443 --> 37:08.166 [SPEAKER_01]: Do this, you know, and that might be the goal of us on people. 37:08.266 --> 37:11.649 [SPEAKER_01]: And that really might be the, you know, but how what, what does that look like? 37:11.669 --> 37:20.657 [SPEAKER_01]: What is your own spiritual life look like with regard to the many roles that God has given you, you know, to stew or to carry. 37:20.677 --> 37:27.363 [SPEAKER_01]: And can you speak to our sisters that are maybe struggling with, you know, how we're to place the worth. 37:27.803 --> 37:28.563 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 37:30.004 --> 37:37.207 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm glad you asked that question because I find that the world asks these kinds of questions of women more than men. 37:37.628 --> 37:41.830 [SPEAKER_03]: We see a man doing a lot and we think, oh, he's a hyperachiever. 37:41.890 --> 37:43.290 [SPEAKER_03]: He's a serial entrepreneur. 37:43.350 --> 37:45.071 [SPEAKER_03]: He's just, you know, he's got a lot going on. 37:45.611 --> 37:46.712 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like this helping him. 37:47.112 --> 37:48.012 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 37:48.933 --> 37:51.034 [SPEAKER_03]: And the cleaning staff and the chat. 37:53.956 --> 37:58.140 [SPEAKER_03]: But we see women doing these things and we think, well, how is she? 37:58.260 --> 37:59.502 [SPEAKER_03]: You must be exhausted. 37:59.542 --> 38:04.047 [SPEAKER_03]: Now she is, but still, but there are ways for me. 38:04.648 --> 38:09.513 [SPEAKER_03]: It has always been important to never forget or forsake my first love. 38:10.535 --> 38:14.781 [SPEAKER_03]: I came into a vibrant relationship with God. 38:14.821 --> 38:16.364 [SPEAKER_03]: I've been a Christian since I was seven. 38:16.764 --> 38:19.408 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't come into a relationship with God until I got to college. 38:19.989 --> 38:24.817 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I really understood that I wanted to love and know Jesus, 38:25.818 --> 38:28.920 [SPEAKER_03]: I all I had was worship and the word. 38:29.401 --> 38:33.684 [SPEAKER_03]: And I went to, that's my first time really engaging deeply in pinacostalism. 38:33.724 --> 38:34.965 [SPEAKER_03]: And I went to a pinacostal church. 38:35.605 --> 38:41.250 [SPEAKER_03]: It was not uncommon for me in college to lay on my face in worship for an hour or two. 38:41.690 --> 38:49.115 [SPEAKER_03]: It was not uncommon for me to read my Bible and highlight with those, you know, the markers back and slide the little pencil in my Bible case. 38:49.155 --> 38:49.956 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I have my Bible 38:50.076 --> 38:50.976 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a text all that. 38:51.196 --> 38:52.777 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, a text all that. 38:53.197 --> 39:00.139 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, wait, time basket, you know, and note my little tag on the door that said being with Jesus, do not disturb. 39:01.420 --> 39:02.960 [SPEAKER_03]: I was only only. 39:03.480 --> 39:11.523 [SPEAKER_03]: But as I've gotten older and as the the context of ministry have changed, I still feel that tug. 39:12.744 --> 39:21.032 [SPEAKER_03]: My husband told me that the other day he said, one thing I've noticed about you, when you go through hard decisions, you will always turn to worship. 39:21.452 --> 39:28.480 [SPEAKER_03]: He's like the whole house will hear you cry and out to the Lord and singing or praying because that's all I know. 39:29.160 --> 39:42.305 [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know anything else, whether I am sitting in a board room or preaching from the pulpit or meeting with a friend, all I know is the Word of God and the worship of God through the Spirit of God. 39:42.505 --> 39:46.847 [SPEAKER_03]: And if everything else is taken away, I want those things to remain. 39:47.207 --> 39:48.427 [SPEAKER_03]: I want that to be set of me. 39:48.487 --> 39:51.908 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, she really loved the Word and she knew how to worship the Lord. 39:52.248 --> 39:56.190 [SPEAKER_03]: But if that's all, then well done, that good and faithful sermon. 39:56.692 --> 40:02.014 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, well, as your friend, I'm honored to say that that is true. 40:02.294 --> 40:03.575 [SPEAKER_01]: That is your testimony. 40:03.615 --> 40:08.037 [SPEAKER_01]: And by God's grace, that shall be the testimony for the rest of your days or two. 40:08.377 --> 40:14.619 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I know up close to personal and from a distance, both the answers points. 40:14.679 --> 40:15.179 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm honored. 40:16.652 --> 40:16.792 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. 40:17.212 --> 40:21.213 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's so important for us to even think about what do we want our legacy to be? 40:21.673 --> 40:22.013 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 40:22.494 --> 40:31.516 [SPEAKER_00]: You think about the book of Hebrews, he will return for those who are awaiting his return and that that posture of a life that is looking to the hills which come with our help. 40:31.576 --> 40:31.936 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 40:31.956 --> 40:38.158 [SPEAKER_00]: The posture to be known in your home as we can find the Colosseum say worship in some way. 40:38.178 --> 40:38.958 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 40:39.358 --> 40:43.639 [SPEAKER_00]: Our closest neighbors are family to know that about our reputation is such a 40:44.337 --> 40:49.819 [SPEAKER_00]: such a beautiful thing to sincerely want that to be the legacy that people know us by. 40:50.339 --> 40:54.921 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we we have so enjoyed this conversation with you, I'm like, we're making together. 40:54.981 --> 40:56.562 [SPEAKER_00]: I've enjoyed this. 40:57.142 --> 41:00.103 [SPEAKER_00]: Just for some just for some, of course, a case in some, in some. 41:05.845 --> 41:09.827 [SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm the one that's the father's away. 41:09.867 --> 41:14.849 [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like we would be remiss. 41:15.030 --> 41:19.111 [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many people who are in, so many of our listeners who are in leadership positions. 41:19.171 --> 41:21.172 [SPEAKER_00]: They may not even think of themselves as leaders. 41:22.073 --> 41:23.533 [SPEAKER_00]: And some clearly do. 41:23.593 --> 41:28.676 [SPEAKER_00]: And some have the title and the positional influential authority even around it in responsibility around it. 41:29.736 --> 41:35.079 [SPEAKER_00]: I would love for you in this moment where leadership is so important, so crucial and under attack. 41:35.439 --> 41:35.699 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 41:35.879 --> 41:36.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 41:36.219 --> 41:39.681 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say that there is a deficit of good godly leadership. 41:39.741 --> 41:40.001 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 41:40.381 --> 41:47.244 [SPEAKER_00]: And even leadership that is attempting to be high integrity is experiencing spiritual warfare in birth. 41:47.304 --> 41:47.484 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 41:47.504 --> 41:52.667 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would love for you to pray for those who have been damaged. 41:53.072 --> 41:54.412 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 41:54.492 --> 41:55.713 [SPEAKER_00]: I an ethical leadership. 41:55.833 --> 41:56.233 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 41:56.373 --> 42:01.975 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would love for you to pray for leaders who have been damaged by mistreatment. 42:02.495 --> 42:10.457 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that would bless so many of our listeners who find themselves in one or both of those narratives even right now. 42:11.716 --> 42:12.316 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 42:12.636 --> 42:13.237 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's pray. 42:14.478 --> 42:28.029 [SPEAKER_03]: Lord, we just thank you for being God and for showing us through your own example what it looks like not just to lead, but to love and to lead out of loving relationship with you. 42:28.629 --> 42:35.694 [SPEAKER_03]: We thank you God right now for all of us who lead and we believe because of your word, we are leaders. 42:35.734 --> 42:38.936 [SPEAKER_03]: We are called to be influencers of others. 42:38.976 --> 42:48.382 [SPEAKER_03]: We are called by your spirit to bear witness of Jesus Christ in this age and because of that calling, I thank you Lord for the calling of leadership. 42:48.882 --> 42:56.704 [SPEAKER_03]: I pray right now that you would empower and strengthen all of my sisters who are listening, who are wrestling with their own sense of call to lead. 42:57.024 --> 43:05.325 [SPEAKER_03]: God, someone has been sitting in a position for so long and has not yet had the privilege of leading from a higher position. 43:05.365 --> 43:08.346 [SPEAKER_03]: God, I pray that you would give her endurance and courage. 43:08.606 --> 43:12.427 [SPEAKER_03]: Help her to see the base of power from which she operates right now. 43:12.907 --> 43:18.070 [SPEAKER_03]: and help her God to continue to store up building blocks for wherever you would lead her next. 43:18.490 --> 43:28.595 [SPEAKER_03]: I pray Lord for those who have been damaged by toxic leaders, by leaders who have been intimidated by them, by leaders who have not made room for their gifts, by leaders who have tried to silence them. 43:28.635 --> 43:32.397 [SPEAKER_03]: God, we review the work of the enemy in the name of Jesus. 43:32.717 --> 43:36.059 [SPEAKER_03]: And we declare as Joseph said, what was meant for evil? 43:36.399 --> 43:38.800 [SPEAKER_03]: God, you will turn it around for our good. 43:39.120 --> 43:42.382 [SPEAKER_03]: So I thank you, Lord, for bringing healing to those who have been wounded. 43:42.782 --> 43:49.808 [SPEAKER_03]: And I thank you, Lord, for healing those who are operating in integrity and still have to fight the battles against the enemy. 43:50.128 --> 44:01.017 [SPEAKER_03]: Lord, make their foreheads like Flint, as you said to Ezekiel, give them the strength, not to turn to the right or to the left, but to keep their mind stayed on you and focused on you. 44:01.517 --> 44:11.442 [SPEAKER_03]: I pray, Lord, that you would allow us to experience what you told Joshua, that we might be strong and courageous, because the Lord, our God, is with us wherever we go. 44:11.823 --> 44:28.752 [SPEAKER_03]: So make the path straight, God, open the doors, make the opportunities clear, and give us a spirit of a willing surrender, so that when we stand before you, we will hear you say, well, done not by our power, not by our might. 44:29.172 --> 44:34.294 [SPEAKER_03]: but because of our surrender to your power and your will and your might. 44:34.834 --> 44:36.894 [SPEAKER_03]: We thank you for being with us. 44:37.334 --> 44:42.636 [SPEAKER_03]: We thank you for leading us and we thank you God for coming for us again. 44:42.656 --> 44:44.637 [SPEAKER_03]: In Jesus' name we pray. 44:45.317 --> 44:45.697 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:47.040 --> 44:47.180 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:47.200 --> 44:47.300 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:47.320 --> 44:47.400 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:47.420 --> 44:47.500 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:47.540 --> 44:47.620 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:47.640 --> 44:47.720 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:47.740 --> 44:47.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:47.880 --> 44:48.020 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.040 --> 44:48.120 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.140 --> 44:48.220 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.240 --> 44:48.320 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.340 --> 44:48.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.440 --> 44:48.560 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.580 --> 44:48.661 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.681 --> 44:48.801 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.821 --> 44:48.921 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:48.941 --> 44:49.041 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.061 --> 44:49.141 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.161 --> 44:49.261 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.281 --> 44:49.401 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.421 --> 44:49.541 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.561 --> 44:49.641 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.661 --> 44:49.761 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:49.781 --> 44:50.261 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 44:50.281 --> 44:50.361 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 45:02.785 --> 45:04.185 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, where's he going to buy your book? 45:04.706 --> 45:09.587 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going now to where they can come see you get a few of them. 45:09.607 --> 45:12.888 [SPEAKER_00]: Give me some pastos, give me some friends, your reading tickets. 45:13.008 --> 45:13.769 [SPEAKER_00]: Get a few of these. 45:13.829 --> 45:15.069 [SPEAKER_01]: They can invite you to speak. 45:15.389 --> 45:16.750 [SPEAKER_01]: Follow you all the way. 45:18.530 --> 45:19.751 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, my goodness. 45:19.872 --> 45:25.357 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you can find all of that information on my website, NicoleMassieMartin.com. 45:25.757 --> 45:26.979 [SPEAKER_03]: The book information is there. 45:26.999 --> 45:28.560 [SPEAKER_03]: You can buy it wherever books are sold. 45:28.740 --> 45:36.148 [SPEAKER_03]: If you buy it and feel so inclined to send a review that would be greatly appreciated, I have learned that reviews go a long way. 45:36.248 --> 45:40.933 [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for just leaning in and being on this journey with me together. 45:41.614 --> 45:42.795 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes. 45:42.835 --> 45:47.959 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for joining us at the table Reverend Dr. Nicole Massey. 45:48.079 --> 45:50.341 [SPEAKER_01]: Martin, we are so grateful for your ministry. 45:50.942 --> 45:55.045 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we want to thank y'all for taking a seat at the table with us this week. 45:55.365 --> 45:57.027 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's keep the conversation going. 45:57.107 --> 45:59.949 [SPEAKER_01]: Share your thoughts about this episode behind the book. 46:00.129 --> 46:00.550 [SPEAKER_01]: Nilling it. 46:00.910 --> 46:03.332 [SPEAKER_01]: We're Reverend Dr. Nicole Massey Martin. 46:03.652 --> 46:11.876 [SPEAKER_01]: You can share your thoughts on Instagram, Threads, on Facebook, at Truth's Table, or you can email us your thoughts, and ask Truth's Table at Gmail.com. 46:12.336 --> 46:23.220 [SPEAKER_01]: Black women, Truth's Table has a black woman's Facebook discipleship group, so make sure you follow Truth's Table on Facebook, join our Facebook group today, answer the entry questions, and you will be admitted into the group. 46:23.720 --> 46:27.862 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to rate and review the show on iTunes and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. 46:28.222 --> 46:29.883 [SPEAKER_01]: Truth's Table is also on YouTube, though. 46:30.003 --> 46:31.884 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can watch our episode on YouTube too. 46:32.824 --> 46:34.005 [SPEAKER_01]: So choose table. 46:34.405 --> 46:35.446 [SPEAKER_01]: You can, you can. 46:35.466 --> 46:38.107 [SPEAKER_01]: We also have a Patreon account. 46:38.207 --> 46:45.910 [SPEAKER_01]: So please send your love offerings to patreon.com slash choose table or you can bless us at our PayPal, which is PayPal.me slash choose table. 46:46.251 --> 46:48.412 [SPEAKER_01]: Choose table's audio producer is Joshua Heath. 46:48.572 --> 46:57.055 [SPEAKER_01]: Our video producer is Dale Bradford and choose table's executive producers and host our community, who in and Christina Edmondson will see you soon on the next choose table. 46:57.496 --> 46:57.876 [SPEAKER_01]: Bye y'all.