[SPEAKER_03]: there and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_03]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, everyone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to another box with hooks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Today we have a special guest joining us.
[SPEAKER_03]: So many of you will remember my launch party that happened back in, it was a ninth of June.
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like an eternity ago.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we had two contests that night.
[SPEAKER_03]: The one was for the best query package.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the one was for the best flush fiction submission.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Leslie won the best flush fiction submission that night.
[SPEAKER_03]: Congratulations, Leslie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Woo.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, for our listeners, we did publish that in our newsletter.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you missed that, go back and have a look for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was an excellent excellent submission, but besides the awesome statuate, the Oscar statuate that Leslie won on the night.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would put that on my mental too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was very tempted to keep that and not hand that across to anybody and just give myself a prize.
[SPEAKER_03]: Leslie also won an appearance on books with hooks.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now we are going to hear something different from Leslie's flash fiction, which is her query for a novel.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Leslie, welcome to the show and will you please read us a query letter.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dear Carl ECC Bianca, my submission defense is a YA dystopian novel with just enough width to balance the darkness.
[SPEAKER_04]: Complete at sixty-eight thousand words and set in the near future, the themes of found family and survival will appeal to fans of Sherry Demolines, the mayor of Bees, and sanctuary by Abbey Sharon Hall of Mendoza.
[SPEAKER_04]: In a city of youngsters living in government-run orphanages, Cam is on her own, kicked out for retaliatory act of violence.
[SPEAKER_04]: She holds up in an abandoned apartment, scavengers, food, and avoids the world, and everyone in it until a break in, depletes her cashed thereby forcing her to get a government assigned factory job.
[SPEAKER_04]: Between the microchips, the street corner scanners and the fence camsies no end to her mystery.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that changes one night after curfew when she meets Jacks in the board at up library.
[SPEAKER_04]: After a close call with the grace, Jacks confesses to Cam that he is searching for a secret depository on behalf of his friend, you and the underground.
[SPEAKER_04]: This clandestine group of orphans is convinced the government is hiding information that could eventually lead to revolution and the end of the tyranny.
[SPEAKER_04]: After successfully finding the depository and discovering the president was directly responsible for the destruction of much of the world's population.
[SPEAKER_04]: Jax and Cameron formed their names have appeared on the grace watch list.
[SPEAKER_04]: forcing them to flee the city where they discover the government's reach, extends far beyond the fence.
[SPEAKER_04]: They are found by Maggie, a farmer who takes them in, keeping them safe until the guilt of abandoning you and draws them back towards the city in the burgeoning revolution.
[SPEAKER_04]: I live and write in small town Ottawa Valley.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for your time and consideration.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much, Leslie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know how many words the query letter was?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I just realized I forgot to check that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: Colleen CC are you able to have a look there?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's coming in at two hundred and ninety-one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so it's on the short side, so there is opportunity there for more of a bio-paragraph, but let's hear what Colleen CC have to say.
[SPEAKER_03]: Colleen will start off with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, welcome, Leslie.
[SPEAKER_01]: So glad to have you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always say I love having authors on the show because we get to kind of.
[SPEAKER_01]: get into the meat of everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks for being here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I decided that I want to focus on a couple things for our time together.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of them is your hope because again, this is books with hook, so we need to figure out what it is, how to communicate it, all of that sort of good stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and I also want to talk about the kind of tyrannical government structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to start with a tyrannical government structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are a number of books out there where there is some sort of like, you know, near future in the governments doing this and, you know, we have to rebel and then there's the uprising and the revolution.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a unique structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason that it is incredibly interesting is the way that it's going to tell us something about our current world and the themes that you're eventually trying to teach through
[SPEAKER_01]: the science fiction element of it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You pictures as a YA dystopian.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess I kind of spent a lot of the time reading it, trying to figure out what I felt was especially unique about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I think that stood out was the kind of orphanage element, the emphasis on like children, you know, and their role in the process.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something that's definitely going to stand out for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I definitely want to get into it obviously after CC shares her notes as well about what we can kind of pinpoint as the thing that is going to make this particular project stand out because, you know, you start with an idea, you grow that idea, you write a book about it, you get really proud of it and you're sharing with other people, which is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we get to this point where, okay, now it is a product that we then have to sell and translate into hooking an agent or finding a publisher and all of that sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where
[SPEAKER_01]: We find ourselves the intersection of where the book is going to meet the marketplace.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why I'm going to be putting emphasis on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not to say it's not a great idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's figuring out what is unique of this story and how we're going to make this story stand out and how we're going to sell this particular story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of coming back to the hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you spend some very important real estate saying, why do still be a novel with just enough wit to balance the darkness?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what that means.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the place where I'm like, okay, probably need to cut that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you get into themes, right, themes of found family and survival.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you get into the comp.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the comps are probably pretty strong here.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the comps that I think you could potentially use in my client, gel Richardson, she wrote gutter child, which is another one where it's like children against the system.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's Canadian author as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't read that one, obviously everybody's listening, check it out because it's a great book.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you have the Marathes in there, which is another great Canadian YA comp as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's get back to the hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've done this on the show before where I try to help people figure out what their hook is.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we're gonna do that today obviously to help Leslie and help everybody that is listening as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm gonna go through a couple different formulas to help us figure out what our hook is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're gonna start with what I think is usually the strongest kind of formula which is the character goal obstacle hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because one of the other things that's a challenge with a pitch where we're building another world is that we have to explain what the world is and why does this world matter and why is the reader gonna care about the world that you're building and all of that sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I find that this one
[SPEAKER_01]: the character goal obstacle formula does a good job of helping us get at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll give you some examples here of what I think is a way that can really start you off on a really strong note with the queer letter itself and help frame the drama that is to come.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's one example.
[SPEAKER_01]: A loner kicked out of a government orphanage must survive on her own despite a close call with the authorities that forces her into the very system she despises.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we're going to get in this mother kind of more like twist oriented formulas and some like more emotionally driven formulas, but that's a very straightforward formula where what is the character, what is the goal, what is the obstacle, she's a loner, she's kicked out of the government of orphanage, she must survive on her own despite the close call with authorities that forces her into the system, she despises.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another one, a young revolutionary must find a secret depository despite government surveillance and the ever-present danger of the grays.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would we got to think about whether we need to explain what the grays is and that is probably not that CC wanted to get into in terms of her notes of like, who's the baddie?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are they doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine CC's probably wanted to talk about that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so then another formula would be the character situation complication formula.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when a break into pleats can scavenge food supply, she must accept a government job, putting her in direct conflict with the system she's trying to avoid.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that again creates the stakes and the tension for what's the drama between where she is and what's getting in her way.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really important formula.
[SPEAKER_01]: When a chance meeting and a boarded up library reveals a revolutionary plot, Kim has choose between her solitary life and helping to uncover a secret that could destroy everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: That one's a bit vague, but you know what I'm getting at that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's move on to another formula, which is the character, desire, conflict formula.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I call the in a world formula, so you know when we're doing the movie trailer, and it's like in a world, so in a world where government tyranny and strict surveillance reign,
[SPEAKER_01]: Cam wants to live a solitary existence free from the system, but she finds herself entangled in a revolution.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that in a world hooks work really well in an imagined world, because you have to explain what the world is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like in a world where in a world where all orphans are controlled by the government, Jack wants to find the truth behind their oppression, a pursuit that puts him in everybody cares about danger,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's obviously focusing a bit more on jacks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And okay, not one last one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we can go do two more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe one last one is kind of the twist because I think what's again, what's important here is what's making this project stand out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what we have to figure out is
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the twist in your story?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, again, why would somebody pick your project up instead of the marathes or go to a child or something like that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's your contemporaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about what your twist might be.
[SPEAKER_01]: So an abandoned child who wants nothing more than to be left alone is forced into the very system she's trying to avoid, only to discover she's a key player in a revolution that will change the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, a little bit vague on the key player and the change the world bit, and you can obviously figure out if you want to elaborate on that, but the only to discover part, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the twist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, got to figure out again how we're going to make this project stand out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And last one, I want to do a more like high stakes version of this just so you can see the difference between what we started with, which was a bit more straightforward and a much more dramatic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dun, dun, dun, type of hook, which is kicked out in a loan, a girl's desperate attempt to survive, turns into a high stakes race to expose a government conspiracy that could destroy everything she's ever known.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the kind of hook where it's like, okay, everything she's ever known, we're flipping it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the dramatic stakes involved.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just wanted to run you through some of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I can share them with you if it's interesting, but just some different ways to think about how we can highlight what is unique about your story and how we can make that stand out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is it for my notes today.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Kali.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll move across to CC and then after that, we'll open it up to Leslie.
[SPEAKER_03]: CC, what were your thoughts?
[SPEAKER_02]: My first thought when I read this was I'm so grateful that you're going to be on the show with us because I have questions and then you can answer questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: But first, I think we all need a round of applause for those great hooks because that was really good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I want to know which one was your favorite, but we won't get into that just yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to focus on the plot paragraphs.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a lot of information that doesn't add tension, doesn't add conflict, doesn't add stakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the purpose of a query letter, more than anything else, is to create tension conflict in stakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, the fact that she's holding up in an abandoned apartment, scavenging for food, avoiding everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are all words that you are spending to describe a situation that makes me feel a lot of empathy for her, but doesn't make me feel curious at all because these are just facts.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, facts about her life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same with the line that reads, you know, there's microchips, there's street corner scanners.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's miserable, essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, empathy, lots and lots of empathy, but where's the curiosity?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like how are you going to hook us with something that happens, something that exerts power and pressure on her, and, you know, puts her in a position where she needs to take action.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also detail that I think isn't even adding to character development.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, the fact that she made Jackson a library, like maybe you'll tell me that's super important, which is why I love that you're here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm like, you're just wasting words.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you're query letter short, but I think after hearing our notes, it will no longer be short because we're asking you to add a whole bunch of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So specifically, what am I asking you to add?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be very blunt and very direct.
[SPEAKER_02]: The challenge here is that your plot paragraph is not making me curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's giving me information.
[SPEAKER_02]: as a human being who you know like we do this is an educational podcast and as a human being who has an educational podcast I'm like lots of empathy for that and I support the fact that you're working on this draft and and I believe in you and I have all these like
[SPEAKER_02]: Nice emotions, but as an agent, my job is to sift through thousands of query letters and really only focus on the ones that make me curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so as harsh as that sounds and I know it sounds harsh, I hope you're hearing this with my intention, which is, hey, this isn't working.
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't making people carry us.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what can I do to make people carry us?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it has to be about focusing on power and pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Power imbalance and pressure exerted on her.
[SPEAKER_02]: her initial motivation, for example, she's miserable, but then she meets Jacks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's that's all very low stakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then I created a little list of the major plot points, and you can tell me if I'm misunderstanding, if I'm missing something.
[SPEAKER_02]: So one, Cam is forced to get a government assigned job.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the inciting incident.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll tell us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Two, Cam meets Jacks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Three, Cam and Jacks find the depository and discover their names aren't a watch list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Four, Cam and Jacks flee the city.
[SPEAKER_02]: Five,
[SPEAKER_02]: guilty, cam and jacks go back.
[SPEAKER_02]: If that's right and maybe it's not because we've had authors come here and be like actually there's this whole other thing and then my mind is blown into this amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if that's what's happening, I worry that you're framing it in a passive way because there's no power or pressure, no antagonistic force forcing her to do anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's miserable and like
[SPEAKER_02]: No offense to poor cam, but okay, she's miserable isn't the most compelling reason for anything to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and she doesn't even make anything happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: She meets Jackson.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she finds a depository because she learns information from him also very passive and then she finds this depository cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't even come after her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She finds out her name is on a list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like where's the power?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where's the pressure?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they get to all very safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: They flee the city.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're totally fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they forced to come back to save someone's life?
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone they love?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they forced to come back because one of them was kidnapped and they have to save the other?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're coming back because they're guilty.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of book ending the situation where it all started because she was miserable.
[SPEAKER_02]: That to me is not compiling motivation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you're selling your story short because I've read your pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I know there's more to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I suspect that you're trying to keep her safe because it's YA.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we want to make sure that we are protecting readers.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a very honorable thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, there is no one more ruthless in a teenager.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there is no one more ruthless in this world than a teenager.
[SPEAKER_02]: Teenagers can handle it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I promise you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that it would be in your best interest, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the plot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you can tell me whether these plot points are even right, maybe they're not.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that with every domino that tips over with every plot point, we need to be really clear on the power imbalance, the power that's being exerted against her and the power that she has over someone else if that ever applies, and the pressure, and it needs to escalate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are my two cents.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, thank you so much, CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, Leslie, we're handing across to you now.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is your opportunity to give us more information in terms of answering those questions or asking questions of your own.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, both of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was great information.
[SPEAKER_04]: A lot to think about.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think there's a lot more going on in the plot.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I guess one of my questions is that what happens is there's a virus.
[SPEAKER_04]: which turns a lot of people off.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had an agency.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody should be writing about viruses, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you've read the first five pages, so she's with her mother at the end, you kind of get this sense that something's happening with them, something does.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think part of my issue with the whole thing is, and I've now torn the whole manuscript apart because
[SPEAKER_04]: I just think that it needs something different, but my issue is that, so Cam is in first person and it's alternating chapters between her and the rest of them and the underground.
[SPEAKER_04]: She doesn't actually get directly involved with the underground until later in the plot.
[SPEAKER_04]: And now I'm wondering whether I need to kind of rework the whole thing that she gets
[SPEAKER_04]: involve much quicker because Jax is the one with the information that he's the one looking for the depository.
[SPEAKER_04]: She happens to help him find it because knowing to her, she's actually found the key to the depository.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's all laid out on my floor right now and it's just because it's alternating chapters essentially.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like two completely different timelines.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not exactly sure whether it's the right thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I just interrupt then, ask Collean CC a question about the virus aspect of it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because hugely popular, okay, season one, season two was crap, was the last of us.
[SPEAKER_03]: And hugely popular was the series Sweet Tooth that went on for a lot of episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was again about a virus or some kind of mutation, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've seen people really watching things with viruses.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a true that nobody wants a virus story before we go on with anything else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think it's true that nobody wants a virus story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand if someone is like, I'm not ready for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially, I mean, I'm assuming this didn't happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Recently, I'm assuming this happened a few years ago where this agent said this to you, you can nod if that's true or nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think you're fine with the virus and I also think that more importantly, Leslie.
[SPEAKER_02]: If there's a virus in your story, not putting that in the query letter isn't going to fix the problem if it is a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if anyone has a problem with virus, not putting it in the query letter is not going to fix the issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's really only one option here.
[SPEAKER_02]: If your story has a virus, the virus needs to go in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you could don't even have to call it a virus if that is your issue, but I just won't care at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want an unforgettable character going on a compelling journey.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to Bianca's point, there's a lot of media out there, including books, honestly.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the middle of the pandemic, HamNet was one of the biggest books out there, and that was about a pandemic.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fair historical fiction and the station a lot of this station in Lina came back and then there was Emma Donkies and goes baked some theories.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was so yeah, I just think that you're fine
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think yes it no you have a hurdle which is a very hurt like if an agent tells you something it's not that they're representative of all agents it's that it is a subset of people that are going to feel strongly about it and so how big that subset is it's hard to know every book has hurdles against it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, like, you know, CC doesn't want to read about negative things happening to animals, you know, everybody has their own biases about like things that we do or don't want to read.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of mine is books where a television show or reality show is a big thing of the plot.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all just have these things where it's like
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't wrap my head around that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, I'm not the right person to sell that because I can't be the right advocate for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously the virus one, we don't have to kind of get into maybe why that's a struggle for people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I agree it has to go in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, like when you say until the break into completes her cash, was that the virus depleting her cash?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, it's actually it's before she meets the underground and jacks and they are searching for food for themselves and happen upon.
[SPEAKER_04]: they've been using her apartment building.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess my greater question here.
[SPEAKER_01]: My global question would be
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is it that you are trying to say about the world here?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we got a virus.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have, like, you know, the tyranny of the government control.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're mixing up a couple different kind of, like, sub-subject honorors if you want to call it that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm just trying to figure out what is this, like, unifying thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the nugget of, I came up with this idea because I wanted to write this book about, like, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the tail end of the virus is the first three chapters, whoever.
[SPEAKER_04]: The world is a city very few adults are still alive.
[SPEAKER_04]: What they discover in the repository is that the government manufactured this virus and released it in the world.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they want to wear that.
[SPEAKER_04]: They figure out that what has gone on is the reason that it's only kids left is that they were actually vaccinated against it before the government released it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the point of
[SPEAKER_04]: what the government is thinking, in that case of a dictator that they have, he wants to be able to manipulate the population and have them act the way he wants them to and by getting rid of the adults.
[SPEAKER_04]: He figures that he can manipulate the children and bring them up for his purposes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I let's run with that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I like this whole.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are not many adults around business because what you end what you say is like a city of youngsters like to me that's just I thought you meant your book is going to have an emphasis on the young people in this city.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not there are literally like two percent adult, ninety eight percent children or you know what I'm trying to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to highlight that, that piece is very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is, you completely rewrote this query to avoid talking about the virus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, you didn't get into any of the power struggles of what Susie was getting at with her questions, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you have to scratch this whole, you have to scratch this whole query letter, and essentially start again, because I think that you, yeah, we're missing some key facts here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Susie, did you want to jump in there?
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that you've explained that the virus's government manipulated the vaccines were part of
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand the agents concern a lot more, because, and I'm projecting here, but, you know, there's so much like anti-vaccine statements out there, sentiment out there, I mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand this agent being like, uh, this is going to be hard and to Carly's point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every book has hurdles.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every book is hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: If this is your book, let's own it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, let's not, let's not pretend that it's something it's not because what's the point?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just going to shoot yourself in the foot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I understand that concern a lot more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the world where kids are left, like left and adults are gone, like that is so interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: so much potential there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think, however, that whether it's in the story or the query letter, I don't know, because I've only read five pages, but I do think that you need to make sure that your plot is about cam.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like right now, it's Jackson's story way more than it's cams based on what you're telling me, but the query letter makes it about cam.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like we need agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need power.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need hard to do things beyond the fact that she's sad, beyond the fact that she's guilty.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't keep her safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can't be like, oh, she finds out that her name is on watch list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like these are not plot points that will propel a story of this nature forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though the premise is amazing and what you're trying to say is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot here because this is a book for teens at a time when
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people have a lot of questions about their government and tyranny and dictatorship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're targeting these teens with this book where they get to kind of essentially explore some themes around the government and trust.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like CCC said, you know, this whole anti-vax movement question mark question mark question mark.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's just there's a lot of underlying things here to get right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I think that's probably what you're struggling with.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, I want to, you know, get the themes right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to get all of this right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to get this published and again, you got some hurdles stacked against you here, which is going to be really hard without nailing this really well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think I'm in the middle of a major rewrite right now, just because I didn't like the way it was.
[SPEAKER_04]: kind of coming together.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was finished.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not finished.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's nowhere near finished.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's a very ambitious story.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is extremely admirable.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got a lot that you want to put in there.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's hugely ambitious, which means it's going to be that much harder to write.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, so long as you're just aware of it, and so long as you're aware of the challenges and you're able to rise to that, lately then I think, you know, you're good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So do you think that I need to get her involved with
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, yeah, I'm kind of stuck on, I'm going to have to think about exactly how to go about doing this.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I suspect that she needs to be, she's not necessarily in all the chapters, right, because it switches from.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they come together when she does get involved in the underground, then it splits apart when they leave the city.
[SPEAKER_04]: and then they come back together again.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a problem at all though.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just have to be in every chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: What needs to happen is that interesting things need to be happening to her and caused by her until she meets Jackson's well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because right now in your query letter, you're describing a monotonous life.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're describing scavenging and no one's going to keep reading if that's all that's happening on those pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need a lot of interesting plot in which she is a protagonist with power and pressure until they meet.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they can meet earlier.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if they meet earlier and she still doesn't have protagonist, you're still not going to fix the issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's less about when it happens in more about what is her story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, ninety nine percent convinced I'm right about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think you're keeping her safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you like her better than you like Jax.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've seen this happen to multiple offers.
[SPEAKER_02]: They get attached to a character and then they protect them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they make the bad stuff not quite happen, you know, like her name is on the list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry, nobody actually came after her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you need to stop protecting her, essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stop protecting your characters, torture them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mine take on this would be think about the reader's experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: because it doesn't essentially matter when these two worlds intersect necessarily.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, it can't be super late in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you have to think about what is the reader going to learn in one world that's going to influence what they know about the other world going between Jackson, can I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if something we learn in Jackson's section is keeping us one step ahead of cam, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that will keep the reader turning the page even if things aren't happening to cam.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would just like arc out the whole reader experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very like reader-centric editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the way I think about everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what is the experience that the reader is going to have?
[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that will probably help with this as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And lastly, just some other advice from someone who's written multi-POV novels.
[SPEAKER_03]: Remember that in each point of view, you need to have something that that character desperately wants.
[SPEAKER_03]: They need to be stakes attached to them getting what they want.
[SPEAKER_03]: They need to be an inciting incident for each character.
[SPEAKER_03]: each character's POV, so each one has got to be as compelling as the other one, and each character needs to have protagonist and agency, and you need to see those dominoes tipping over so that as one thing happened, it leads to the other one, whether they make a bad decision and they have to deal with the repercussions, but then that ups the stakes in terms of what they have to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, it's just important for you to look at her story separately and make sure that it's ticking all of those boxes as well as his story separately as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because I think at this point, there are things that happen to her.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm now beginning to think that those things are happening just because something interesting has to happen in the story.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not directly connected to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, listen to what you said.
[SPEAKER_03]: You said things are happening to her.
[SPEAKER_03]: That makes her pass after she's reacting to things, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: The minute you say things are happening to your character, it means they are passive.
[SPEAKER_03]: They have no control over it and they're just reacting to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you've got to reposition at what is she doing to make the dominance up over what decisions is she making?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what gives your character agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's obviously both, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Things happen to her, she reacts to these things and she makes things happen to like it's a pinball effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're, you, you need both.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can't just be her doing things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, and that's what Carly just started to say was, maybe she isn't the main character.
[SPEAKER_04]: It could be you and who you're introduced to in chapter two.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you, you will know that because you're her creator.
[SPEAKER_02]: Guess who created all these people?
[SPEAKER_02]: Guess who's the god of this world?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I have thought about that too and I'm going to go away.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it might be a big change, but you've got to make the changes that best serve the story, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So, okay, well, we're running out of time now in terms of the query.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I think we're going to move on now, Leslie, to the pages.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you please just give us a summary of what's in them and then we can discuss those.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so it starts with Cam and her mother, they're on their way to the library and they have an encounter with a Grey and the Grey's her government enforcers.
[SPEAKER_04]: The library is being boarded up and she's got a stack of books in her hand and the Grey says, you know, those are illegal and she kind of confronts him and I have added more in since that but anyways, he swipes the book so to her hand they end up on the sidewalk her mother's trying to get her to go home and
[SPEAKER_04]: she really wants the books back.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then the second part of that is they're at home, the lights go out, they end up outside with a few of the neighbors that are still left and the grays are coming around making government announcements.
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't have TV, they don't have the electronics.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're saying that they're now down to electricity will be two hours a day.
[SPEAKER_04]: now are the morning and hour in the evening and that there will be a curfew implemented.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then the next chapter introduces you and a jox.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're still at the voice orphanage and then Aaron, a friend of you and comes and asks you and to come to the underground and be his right hand man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, wonderful, Leslie, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, CC, I think we're going to start with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: CC has a lot of notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we're running out of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will try to not ramble.
[SPEAKER_02]: My big picture note is this is not the right place to start.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I will still give you notes on what you're doing, because I hope they're useful for the other places as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are currently falling into a very common trap, which I call the blank canvas protagonist, trap.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not thinking.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not futurizing.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not anticipating.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is not catastrophizing.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no specificity in her interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no imagination.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is coming across as someone who's totally a blind as a blank canvas.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will give you examples.
[SPEAKER_02]: First page, the gray say the books are legal.
[SPEAKER_02]: She says since when, but what's going on in her mind?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it typical for her to be this defiant?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it unusual?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is she worried about her mother's reaction?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is she thinking about what the consequences are of the books being illegal?
[SPEAKER_02]: Could she go to jail?
[SPEAKER_02]: Could she be arrested?
[SPEAKER_02]: Once she starts a defiance, these things should be even more prominent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, do people disappear in this world?
[SPEAKER_02]: Has her neighbor disappeared?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is her fate gonna be just like Emma's fate?
[SPEAKER_02]: Emma is her neighbor who disappeared?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what specific framework and what specific active emotions, fear and desire conveyed through surprise, is going on in her mind?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right now, it's all dialogue.
[SPEAKER_02]: All dialogue, no interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: When she says to her mom, please mom, I beg.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is she, why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like why is she doing that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do the books mean that much to her if so why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can she not imagine a life without books because they're the only pleasure she has left?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it the only moment of peace she has in an otherwise whatever world?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she's taking a big risk, I imagine confronting a gray because based on everything you've told us about this world, it's a huge deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: When they walk several blocks and she asks her mom what's going on, there's no theories in her head.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if her mom's behavior was unusual and I assume it was because she seemed sort of surprised, what are her theories about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: When she asks her mom, are you okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where's her interiority?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what fears are coming up for her?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what theories?
[SPEAKER_02]: When, and then she asks again, a couple lines out later, are you sure you're okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's nothing in her interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: All we get is her dialogue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is a script.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a book yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because in a book, you need that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she raises her eyebrows, turns to her father.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that common?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that the dynamic of their relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, does she go to him for answers, typically?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or is it unusual because her mom's acting so unusual that she finds what she feels weird to go, looks seeking reassurance from her father.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her mom is doing the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, in fairness, we're not in her mom's head, but clearing her throat again, my mother said, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm at this point, I'm going, what's up with these people who just ask open-ended question, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's not how human beings talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: Human beings go to the power went off.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go, it's the fuse box.
[SPEAKER_02]: or power outage, or did we forget to pay the bill?
[SPEAKER_02]: They ask questions like, is it just us?
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, let me go check the window, is it the neighbors too?
[SPEAKER_02]: They pull up frameworks in their mind, like, oh my god, this has been happening a lot, or I can't remember the last time the power went out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I know that the specifics are going to depend on your world, but we need that interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: When her father asks, do you hear that?
[SPEAKER_02]: There wasn't any indication of sound.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the protagonist isn't picking up on things that she'd not hear it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, she should go hear what is my dad hearing voices.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, or she should track and she should signal whatever he's hearing first.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's also doing it, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just the women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her father goes out and says, I wonder whether anyone knows what's going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, theories, people, theories.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need theories.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you have essentially like the Greek chorus, which I thought was really well done of like all the things that have been happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that you made it so short that the paste and drag that was really, really well done.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have her talking after the Greek chorus.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what she says?
[SPEAKER_02]: She says, what is that?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Telling you right now Leslie, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not letting you in a way with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like no, she has theories.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a thinking human being with a specific socio-emotional framework.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to learn, I want to connect with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will never connect with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: No one will ever connect with her unless you give us that specific framework because that's what makes us go, oh, that's the kind of person she is.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, here's an example.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have two agents on the show, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: When Carly and I read things, we each pull up different socio-emotional frameworks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Carly is a huge optimist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a very well-known pessimist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's, we're different people who feel different things and theorize in different ways, despite having the same job, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's really, really important.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, again, I highlighted all the instances, and I think you'll get tired of seeing my notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, okay, second note.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that,
[SPEAKER_02]: The dialogue where she's talking to her dad about the government is very infotempy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she asks why are they doing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Her father says control.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she goes, but shouldn't we be questioning them?
[SPEAKER_02]: Shouldn't a government have to explain?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no way this is the first time she's asking this question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she lives in an authoritarian world.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been going on for a while to your point.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the tail end of the virus.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just sounds infotempy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like it's for the reader's benefit.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even though your story is for the reader, it can't sound like it's for the reader.
[SPEAKER_02]: Seduction doesn't feel like a service.
[SPEAKER_02]: Seduction feels like something that the person's doing because they're so seductive, and then you get to be there, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though it's a hundred percent manipulation, but it can't feel like manipulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And your job as a storyteller is to serve really seduce.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, I thought it was super info dumpy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't buy it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when she notices that her mom is warm,
[SPEAKER_02]: So my whole theory is you didn't give us her interiority when she was asking her mom was okay because you didn't want her theorized about the virus and you don't want to give that away too early.
[SPEAKER_02]: If that is the case, have her think three different things and then the third thing be the virus and go, nope, I'm not even going to go there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she can do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: She can suppress her own thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then by the end of chapter one, we need that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That being said, like I said, I don't think it's the right place to start.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to start the story, starting it in a moment where the disruption forces her to change her power imbalance is essential.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like in the beginning of the story, whatever the protagonist's place in the world is, whatever power they have,
[SPEAKER_02]: needs to be established really quickly, and then the disruption needs to mess with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: She needs to either gain power or lose power, and right now she's the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's the same from beginning to end, and so that's why I don't think it's the right place to start, but yeah, those are my notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we'll hand it across to Collie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also agree, we're not starting in the right place.
[SPEAKER_01]: I obviously won't repeat everything that CCC said, but I'm very obsessed now with this idea that they're not very many adults left in this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's the place where we need to figure out, not like explaining that, but you need to figure out a scene where it becomes brutally obvious that the children are shopping for their own groceries, that they teach themselves school.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm trying to say?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how can we show and demonstrate that
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a very kid-centric world because one of the things I found really interesting in these pages was how young this gray was, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This young dark-haired gray, and then you said a child throwing a tantrum.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I made notes in here kind of about this like, how old is he?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're scared of a child, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's super interesting to me that a grown woman would be scared of a child super fascinating to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't spend any time addressing this age stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, now that you're talking about this, I find this very fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a key, I think, to unlock in quite a bit about what is unique and special about this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would figure out a way to show us how kids centric this world is and how this group of children, the gray children, or teens, or youths, have like with our world.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are being used as a tool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it might be kid against kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think there's something to unlock in that about
[SPEAKER_01]: the age and how.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, these children are being manipulated on that side.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with what CCC said about this like Greek chorus business.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really liked the likes to call it a dialogue.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I was out there on the street with them like overhearing what was happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had all the same notes about where is her internal curiosity.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's asking her parents these questions, but she has no thoughts of her own about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just makes no sense to me that teen would not theorize and go to their parents last because she would have been having these conversations with their parents for the last ten years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a child in this environment, you know, by age.
[SPEAKER_01]: Seven would have a foundational understanding of how their world works.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I have the least she's a teen now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are kind of some of the reasons why I don't think we're starting in the right place.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just not getting to the point where we're expressing the world in a way that is really story forward while explaining the consequences of this world and how they affect our character at this time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Kali.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to hand across to Leslie to either give us some replies or to ask some questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so because it starts with her and her parents, I better off just to dump that whole thing and start after.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I've got a chapter where she ends up her parents die and she ends up at the orphanage.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was super confusing to me, the fact that she's at an orphanage and then the story opens with her parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why when I was writing those hooks, I was like, did she just have an in her parents?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did she get separated from them?
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't really clear on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if the parents do not have a central role in the story, then they cannot be in the opening scene in my opinion, or else this is essentially a prologue, because it's a foundational moment that is kind of setting off the tone for the story of what's to come.
[SPEAKER_01]: But CC, what do you think?
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that Carly's reference to gutter child by J.L.
[SPEAKER_02]: Richardson is the perfect novel from which to learn how to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that book begins with, is it Elimina?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that her name?
[SPEAKER_02]: I forget the protagonist's name.
[SPEAKER_02]: Arriving at what we will find out as an orphanage, but we get her active emotions first.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like she's being driven.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's an outsider.
[SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't want to be there.
[SPEAKER_02]: She misses her mother.
[SPEAKER_02]: We find out her mother died first.
[SPEAKER_02]: We find out she misses her mother.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we find out her mother dies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when she arrives, she has this on the surface warm welcome from the principal and everyone else, but she's terrified.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the chapter ends with her walking into a room where she sees all the children with two exes on their hands and she goes, no, I don't belong here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a gutter child.
[SPEAKER_02]: No explanation about the gutter system.
[SPEAKER_02]: No infodumpy dialogue about, oh, but we are here and the gutter world, like there's none of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all
[SPEAKER_02]: the protagonist being incredibly incredibly vulnerable and terrified, but still very active interiority, even though she says very little, but so active in the interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the end of the chapter, when we get that line, that, you know, she has one X. Everyone else has two.
[SPEAKER_02]: That alone is already like, what the heck?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is going on?
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we see her resist.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see her be no.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that to me is a perfect example of a really brilliant place to start, because it just makes us so curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: Does it make me feel empathy for Alamina?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not reading for the empathy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And no one out there is either.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care what anyone says.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm reading for the curiosity.
[SPEAKER_02]: So is the next scene that right scene?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't answer that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Carly can answer that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bianca can answer that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No one can answer that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: We haven't read it first of all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Second of all, we're not the author.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the scene you need to write.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether it's choosing the next one or creating a whole new one needs to have a disruption that really, really shifts her, her power and it needs to make us deeply deeply curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: You will know what that is when you crack it until then just keep trying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, this is all very, very helpful.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know what I'm doing for the next two years of my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, it's sometimes also interesting to realize that someone who you thought was a main character might not actually be a main character.
[SPEAKER_03]: And none of that was wasted.
[SPEAKER_03]: You write that to realize, okay, they're not the most compelling main character.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're going to be in the story, but they're a secondary character, or tertiary character, and then you find a way to the most exciting vehicles for the plot, who are the people who are most active, who've got the most agency, who are changing the story, who are defining it, who's tipping the dominoes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, all of this, this is what I talk about all the time in terms of circling the building.
[SPEAKER_03]: You are circling the building and you're finding the base way in and you're going to find it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have one hundred percent believe that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, it's good and it's, I knew something wasn't right and I couldn't put my finger on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, there's a lot there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's again why I say that foundation is so important.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you've got a very solid act one and you start with the right characters and you start with the right pair of ears and you start in the right place, the dominoes will tip and it'll make it so much easier for act two.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you don't have a strong act one, it makes your act two that much harder because you're still trying to figure everything out and you can't figure out why it's not working and it's just more and more frustrating.
[SPEAKER_03]: So spend more time on that act one, get it as strong as you possibly can.
[SPEAKER_03]: and then use that as a diving board interactive.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, Leslie, thank you so much for joining us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being vulnerable with us and for putting your work out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is so much, I'm sure listeners have learned.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's so many of them who are exactly where you are and you have helped them by sharing your work with us and we really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Colleen, CC, thanks so much for your input and next week we will be back with an author interview.
[SPEAKER_03]: Goodbye, everyone.
[SPEAKER_03]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshomen.com.
[SPEAKER_03]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_03]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Colley on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.