[UNKNOWN]: music playing
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the Coaches Rising podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jill Neffew.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be talking about Jill's mission to harness technology, to enhance human natural intelligence.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Jill is quite critical of large language models.
[SPEAKER_02]: She'll tell you why.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a really important message.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to take a kind of meta view at our history and how we've come to view what intelligence is,
[SPEAKER_02]: before zooming in on Jill's own journey around developing technology that can enhance human intelligence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jill is the founder of Inquire and the Inquire Technology is designed to enhance and accelerate human sense-making abilities.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the designing of the system required her to attempt to answer a fundamental question, which is, how does technology interact with the mind's ability to do individual and collective sense-making?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what are the principles that technology should follow to maximise the usability?
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the broad area of our exploration today, and I think it's a very important conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's dive right in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the podcast with Jill Neffy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jill.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, I'm glad we're here.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just saying in the check-in that, you know, we kind of connected about a year ago, I think via Peter Limberg.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, we've been intending to have a conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in some ways, you actually said this, that I think the delay has actually been for tutors in the sense of a lot is unfolding with AI and chatGPT, these kind of platforms and your
[SPEAKER_02]: work is really informative and enlightening around how humans can use technology to enhance learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you've got some beautiful thinking around that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm glad we're here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, how you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to have this conversation with you, which I'm sure we're going to get into because I think that the role of coaching is going to play such a critical piece in this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually, it's going to be really interesting to get into like what the downstream effects of what's happening right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: are with you, so yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's we'll get into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to ask you first, you know, on your website, it actually describes you as someone who is thinking deeply about, you know, how we can have technologies that enhance human intelligence
[SPEAKER_02]: as opposed to distorting that or blocking it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what's your sense of the possibilities with this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that might lead us to also contrast that with what's occurring with large language models and chatGPT, but could you tell us in a sense like what's your passion?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you sense as possible as well?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this might work best through a little bit of a narrative to talk about the origins of all this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my back story is that I came from being a super enthusiast of all personal growth and spiritual and everything technologies back in the eighties, nineties.
[SPEAKER_00]: that dove into my own spiritual tradition, Falon, had been the committed root and also sampled widely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I came from a base of years and years of practice and sampling and looking for something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And and so early nineties I stumbled on a format I really liked by ninety four year old Quaker.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was nothing like I'd seen before and I and I'm we can jump into the details of this but I thought this is lightning in a bottle.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a really important what's happening here and she's doing very little to make it happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I got to study that a little bit and I thought there's like a protocol.
[SPEAKER_00]: My background was software and other things and systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: My academic background is physics, climate science, atmospheric science, biophysics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was a very science modeling oriented person and even AI worked for four years at AI research lab.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm listening for things that sound algorithmic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And actually I listened to a podcast and kind of signaling a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when the earliest Buddhist geeks podcast, I listened to early, two thousand with those shins and young, when he said he thought a lot of what he did was algorithmic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, yeah, it is algorithmic.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we kind of compared it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why there's a documentary about a guru who just pretended to be one and became one.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I forget what it was called, but it was this popular, you know, someone can just imitate or ape these certain language.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it does dispel on people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then also you have these roles like meditation teachers, therapists of what not that are also trying to maintain this neutrality.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not even a complex script.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like they're trying to wrestle down to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to actually intentionally erase things and become the simple thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a lot of curiosity about, you know, when you when you're listening as a engineer about anything that is algorithmic, meaning like you can just write down a recipe for it, like that anyone can follow even a child, like set by step instructions which are looking for like anybody can say step one, say this step two, say that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can find that thing, that is kind of the foundation of how we spread very easily, you know, very powerful things within a culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is kind of the fundamental, especially when it's predictable, transparent, reproducible, and someone knows you're going to do this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like yoga is a system of very reproducible algorithms of movement, and we're happy to sign up for things that even if it's repetitive, we're happy to go through the movements.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if somebody and even just watch a video over and over again, or even listen to some of our favorite meditation teachers do something similar over and over again, because we want help going through those movements.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want support going through a kind of movement of our attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so I had that as a background.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'll keep going with the narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I experienced with the Quaker was a very, I felt like it was the water I needed as an American in our culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: I say what that was that they did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened was I got invited to a group.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was my new my grandfather remarried and then it's eighty eighty-two year old my new eighty-two year old adopted grandmother we resonated she invited me to this group then be meaning for like fifteen years I was thirty at the time so that's twenty five years ago and I was the only person under sixty five in this group for this weekend retreat that they did regularly with this quaker they flew out to to facilitate
[SPEAKER_00]: And what happened was she was basically doing this very artful thing that we'll go into, like me trying to over the years for T's apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was she actually doing, but you know, the clicker traditions are very interesting of study of how they manage minds and how they manage and support sense making.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have really cool technologies for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she was managing just this thing that was able to pull out this deep threads of meaning from these ladies talking about their life and looking back in their life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was one part.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other part is that when you're dealing with people that are sixty-seven to even up to ninety in the group, still trying to grow into things in their life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was hearing stories of things that are happening when there are babies or when there are eleven or when there are twenty.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like these are all these are lifelong arcs of sense making into these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I started getting this long view of that I'd come from this very punishing therapy model that I had issues and I needed to like get on it and work it out before my roof productive years or else I was going to pass on a basket case for a kid and should take a year and get a good therapist and work your shit out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like this really mean view.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm dealing with literally one of the laser in Auschwitz and she talks about the arc of her feeling that she went in journey of thirty years
[SPEAKER_00]: of hard work to get where she is now and she said it was worth it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her sister didn't know that work and everybody knows both of them says you should do your work.
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are these really long arcs and deep wisdom and able to tell story through the way the Quaker was facilitating this.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was giving me this really important view of this is what it is to be human.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the human experience we're having here.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are people that I just cuss out in traffic or get on my way to the grocery store and now in this setting what's being pulled out is like
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm part of humanity here, and we're in a center of LA, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's very un-exotic, like hospital with a little beating room that smells musty, but eventually, ladies from LA, talking about these massive arcs of what it's like to go through world wars, you know, more than one, more than one more, more than one more, and these really important arcs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no containers for these conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we need to be happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the water.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like being at those ladies, I was up on this Mount Everest of perspective of what it means to be human in life that I was piecing together as like a landscape from their narratives.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was happening in a container that was being facilitated, very, very, are fully, but very simply.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, if I can spread this, this is what people need.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is my, I want other people to have this experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there are lots of barriers to this, which I've been working for.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a bothered me for a number of years, and I was on a solitary retreat for about six weeks in Turkey, just walking, writing, journaling, getting deep and like, emptying out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember just, there's nothing left, but like if you, you have to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're terrified, but you have to just, this is your work.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to figure this out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I quit my job shortly after and began in two thousand nine trying to carefully tease through what does it take to disarm the bomb of modernity in American culture?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are all the barriers that are keeping these kind of things from happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: This kind of deep healing from happening that is so
[SPEAKER_00]: built in to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's more like a study of the removing of the barriers, understand the factors.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, like I said, then this weird piece that parts of it, if it's algorithmic, that means like it can spread it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if I could put her name is Perry Martin, written it, remember, she would be a hundred and you know, twenty now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think she's around anymore, but you know, if I could
[SPEAKER_00]: If I get spread that around, that can really make a difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then the question is, how did you do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's been the puzzle I've been teasing apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then through that arc, a little bit more of the story is that I thought I would do it first just by sharing story and narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what happened on the way to building that system, I built a first version of the software system to help people do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to do that that I needed to really try to unpack the nature of that process, walking people through it was software.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but the idea was I was trying to elicit something from people to share with others as my first model.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me pull out your wisdom and give it to others.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was the first thing I learned about which we can go into.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of things I've learned about.
[SPEAKER_00]: We may not be the most important one to talk about today.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I first just thought that's what I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then my early testers were telling me, and I had this experience as well, that this was therapeutic, which I did not intend to build a therapy machine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I intended to build something to help this problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so therapeutic that they're saying, you should make do this for therapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to that point, I was like, I don't want to be in that world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't want to compete with all of the snake oil and all the stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all the, you know, I just knew it was going to be a really hard road.
[SPEAKER_00]: But my conscience was like, yeah, there's a lot you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: even alone somehow working with these forms that are asking you to like just get it out of yourself just articulate these long threads of meaning and what happens when you just try to do that and only that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one other little thing I'll nugget in, but then I'm going to pause in my early testing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened with the system that was surprising and amazing from an engineer perspective from an engineer hat.
[SPEAKER_00]: was the first thing I needed to do is try to understand, first, how do you, what is the nature of trying to elicit that from a mind?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you have to get right and wrong?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of ways to do it wrong because we know about false memories, we know about gang people to commit crimes, a confess to crimes they didn't commit.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that also can happen through inquiry.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a way to distort as they're pulling information out and steer people down garden paths, almost like control their cognitive workspace, they see patterns that aren't real.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is all very doable as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the idea was to try to find a certain kind of form that was, and we'll be going into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think you speak to the dimensions of this on your podcast, I guess, all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think coaches know this.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a perceptual, almost a perceptual state you're getting people into.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to get them to be in a perceiving state, not necessarily thinking state, but a perceiving state against their model of reality, not the one you're giving them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little bit of like this, making sure you aren't, but there is an artfulness there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can pull because, you know, you want to bring in things from their mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can kind of play, um, almost like play notes under mine to help their memory say, hey, you've managed, do you have anything over here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have anything over there and kind of help them with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: So where have you crossed over until lift off, where you've given them a fantasy versus you're trying to help them play, you know, these kind of different chords and notes of their own life to help them start to find workable new things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that kind of form of thing, whatever you want to call that, inquiry, a lot of words are too blunt because it's a very, roughly constructed, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: exercise you're doing it's like you're you're almost being a doctor it's like it's like it's very you know you're going into a psyche and you're being very specific you know when done well at to try to figure out how to get this thing together and even pick the right things so the first at the beginning it was how many kind of forms do this and then this is like a year and a half a model building and then realizing that as I was collecting these forms and trying to find out find them ever I could find them just looking at what people have written
[SPEAKER_00]: you constructing things and and curating this almost library forms that I was running by for this as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: This kind of the form of the thing that does this whatever that you know I'm kind of short handing that's a form so yeah so whatever we're calling the bit that if there's a pattern to how that's done which we can go into but the pattern of how that's done I was trying to extract an algorithmic pattern of it is there repeat thing you kind of say is there any repeat words that
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything that's repeating?
[SPEAKER_00]: So if your model building, you kind of say, oh, you're kind of asking the same kind of, you know, it's a question like, how, why, where, when?
[SPEAKER_00]: Who figured out that those are the five we'd see to be asking all the time?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so you can think of that as like an analogy.
[SPEAKER_00]: If like, that's one style where you can say, oh, we're kind of asking who, who, who, all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I, so it turns out these things to kind of jump to the punchline exist and you can find them through language through very careful language studies that the way language works.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the words are like ninety-five percent of what we're talking about today in conversation is only the first thousand words.
[SPEAKER_00]: of which is really remarkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we orchestrate these same words over and over.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is what we realize of chat to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now everybody knows this.
[SPEAKER_00]: That you can orchestrate kind of frameworks of these common words.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they'll create these kind of patterns.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's your hunting for these kind of patterns, but of a specific kind.
[SPEAKER_02]: to say what you mean by that again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the first thousand word, the part we said in the first thousand words, we can elicit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just unpack that a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, if you just were to write down a conversation and then do count the words, you know, like how many words are in that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you do a distribution of like how frequent art different words like the words that A, I think is if at least the and A might be the most common ones, you know, and and linguists call us as closed class words.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're basically words where we're not going to make up another word for the
[SPEAKER_00]: we're only always gonna have one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this, that kind of tells you that, so I actually did exercise if you want anyone can look up what are the fifty most common words and just try to write a poem out of them and you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I call it close-class poetry.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of fun to say you're talking about everything and you're talking about nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, it's kind of the framework of metaphor, the framework of there's a shape to thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you did that plotting, you would realize that by the time you looked at the frequent words, by the time you got to the thousandth word, you would have covered ninety-five percent of everything said in an average conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are, yeah, so we only bring in these, we only sprinkle in the other two million or whatever five million words we've made up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we sprinkle them in because you can see my hands are doing it because most of what we're doing we're talking is we have a reference in our mind's eye and we're walking around it and we're pointing at it and we're like, bring it and we have a perspective.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I do this linguistically, you know, I'm talking about something over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're doing all this pointing
[SPEAKER_00]: in landscapes in each other's mind, right in these spaces together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're operating on these simulations or I call emulations in each other's minds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Emulations are going to be really important concepts to come into.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I hope we get there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I need to speed up a little here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so basically realizing there are these form things or wasn't infinitely many.
[SPEAKER_00]: that became kind of the backbone of and that they're all important.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when people are designing back to these forms, when people are designing their carefully in language,
[SPEAKER_00]: a way, like if you do a whole study on this, which is kind of, again, the backbone of how I spent most my years of trying to extract out the, not the other two million words, just the framework of the words that are, you could think of ways of looking, the ways of looking that someone might do themselves or have facilitate for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: There aren't infinitely many, but there's quite a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, by our count currently, and again, they still are coming in a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like kind of landing the plain things.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're at about twenty five hundred forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what that means over fifteen years is that when we add a new form, it's because none of the other forms would then quite the same job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not that you need all twenty five hundred forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: always you have to the right one will unlock something and then what we do which is interesting is we'd learn how to cut into that set we learn how to chunk it so we know we know already you can remove a third because if you're talking past present future
[SPEAKER_00]: It split it in thirds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we've chunked it down and then the way we linguistically frame things.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you study that we're going to chunk it again and chunk it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can kind of see how the mind is trying to find these things and you also can see how the mind can get stuck and miss the important ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: especially if you're bringing in a known framework.
[SPEAKER_00]: So kind of you could think of every psychological framework or coaching framework or business consulting framework can be articulated into a subset of these forms any process for walking people through looking and seeing and, uh, and uh, facilitating that for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, there's so much in what you just shared, I think we could kind of pick up on, but I want to make sure that I think we'll come back to these forms, but I want to make sure that right now we also, that I just kind of give to listeners a clear sense of
[SPEAKER_02]: what we're intending with these forms.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm hearing you say is there are these forms that you codified that there's an algorithm and that they unlock a certain way of learning, which is akin to what you are tapping in.
[SPEAKER_02]: You saw this lady doing inspired you and that it's eliciting a kind of learning and growth of wisdom or healing that's really like
[SPEAKER_02]: great for humans to do and that you're codifying these forms over time and that you know now you've got quite a lot of these forms and then I think I just heard you say that you could fit maybe like coaching some of the come and coaching styles or moves into forms or
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can think of analogies that could be thought of as forms sometimes we think of more as patterns.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then an employer we actually articulate them all the way down that's my company and fire into templates.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you literally, they're like a template that you have to learn how to work with them, but you can kind of fill in the framework.
[SPEAKER_00]: These template things and control different parts that all the guts of the form, and then you basically will generate a script that could be a starting point for a child could read it and all work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what we confirm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like anyone can read it and the work, even you could have an artificial voice read it and it'll work.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it can also be, but it's, you know, but the heavy lifting is finding the correct form and configuring it correctly, you know, is not having the contact.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a big meaty middle, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But then once at the end, what you've got is you've got the barrier of really excited to overcome is you've got something that will enable everybody to overcome if they've only learned like one framework.
[SPEAKER_00]: So kind of clarify again, we claim that you could find the path that if if there's a coaching forum or third before or a business consulting framework or anything that's using a form that's not in our system, we will put it in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're claiming an attempt to be comprehensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how we built it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's basically, would take any framework and say, are we missing anything?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they doing something there with the way they did that that we're missing?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we strip out the pattern and we put it into our system and templatize it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we help make sure people can find it again within a context.
[SPEAKER_00]: So your mind can work through and listening actively to a client.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have tools.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can break this down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can kind of see, here's a whole schmorgasbord of these moves.
[SPEAKER_00]: And let me say one more thing that might be clarifying for the audience.
[SPEAKER_00]: A really, a way we explain this a lot to help people understand what this is like is that, and this is how we experience these forms is that if I was using visual as an analog, and I said, I want to make sure you really understand your environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would tell you, you have to look up, down, left, right, front, and behind you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You cannot miss one.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to understand your environment, there are only six and only six ways I need to tell you to look.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the brain does all the magic of the bleeding edge of that and interprets it and stitches it all together into coherent whole.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you only have to kind of point a mind in a direction and it's smart and organic.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll start pulling things in.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can quite easily feel like I learned a method and we just look forward, or I look at methods like that, looking back, or we're about looking up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you actually, I've never done this before.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can actually think of analogous systems that actually are like that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: like looking up would be obviously the transcendent and looking behind would be therapy and looking forward to be coaching and looking left and right might be social.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what are they doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's around me?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, even that, you can kind of start to have a felt sense of like people will fall into modes.
[SPEAKER_00]: that mirror a set of forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other dimension is how a distance you're looking, which is really, that's construed something called construal-level theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you bring in the distancing part, we're talking about, well, let's talk about a thousand years in the future or a thousand years behind, or let's talk about today, or yesterday.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, already, you can use the same forms, but you're noticing your changes, other dimension that feels really different.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you get a long time horizons, or let's talk about everybody, let's just talk about me and my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, let's talk, you know, so you can go and these other dimensions that start to take on different domains like spirituals obviously long.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just claims long and, you know, logistics is short and small and strategy somewhere in the middle and balancing all of those, you know, so yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have, so it's making explicit kind of these, if you can make explicit with these simple ways to break down in chunk,
[SPEAKER_00]: That methodology that you make it kind of systematic, not as a, do this, do this, do this in processes, but in control this, this dial that dial that dial to help a coach or therapist feel like, where am I not looking?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do I need to help this person look?
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I deconstruct this problem so that I kind of know I'm exercising all the joints that can move around it?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't miss anything important.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of the opening up of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I'm hearing there's a kind of contextualizing the learning in some way or expanding the context.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to do a thing where we jump to, we're going to come back to this whole topic of what is learning in a sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to contrast it with a little bit of what I've heard you talk about, and this also might segue into AI and light language models for a while, which is like you said earlier in our conversation, you said,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, there's a way that there there there are these barriers basically in modernity has kind of sounded like within modernity there are some barriers and so if you know, and I've heard in some of your other conversations that you kind of you've talked about
[SPEAKER_02]: what cognition is, how we can view what cognition is, as opposed to how it might be viewed now or how it might be being entrained in modernity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Could you kind of give us a sense of
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what are these barriers to our learning and to our sense of this arc of being becoming more human that you talked about?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the barriers and the barriers we find in modernity and what it's done to our cognition?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, that's exactly where I was hoping we go next.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're tracking the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for one thing, I have tried really hard to answer this question over the years.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the central thing I need to do in building things, but I'm really also like what what's the trace of this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is this so pervasive?
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing I've noticed is that it's almost like I have, I have yet to find a community.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have a way of talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's very, there's a thing that's very all pervasive in many ways that people talk about this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just pick one way to talk about the thing, but I could talk all day about these people, see it as this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one really nice historical arc is the Renaissance, so we made imagination.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of ways this story plays out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, let me actually back up from there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want people thinking for themselves or not?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to enslave a human, you do not want them thinking for themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to stop the certain cognitive activity to control people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exploding other people by controlling their minds has been around forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is the only way to power is to get people to agree, because there's a lot more of them than you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And every power hierarchy, there's a lot more of them than you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you aren't managing their minds, somehow to get them agreed to keep you up there, this all falls apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: So everything going on right now is a giant, like, kind of damage control to keep people from having these abilities.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the biggest barrier is just the way powers are ranged and the constant plugging at the holes to try to stock this stuff from happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, thirteen hundredths, you know, stone to death, fifteen hundredths burnt to the stake.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, if you look at, for instance, like the art of truth, which I don't want to, like, this one we could just wrap whole on forever, but
[SPEAKER_00]: In the fifteen hundred so they're trying to spread this thing around we got kind of origins at least once there's we got the origins of the occult because they had to encode everything because if you're caught having these things like you construct people thinking have you realized the king's just a man and this is all just a system and a matrix I agree to and feudalism doesn't have to be this way I'm as qualified as anybody else if you start you know if they find out you have these things you're dead you know so
[SPEAKER_00]: at the end of one of Geodron Bruno's books, you know, it's all written, it's just a book of codes and office skating and symbols.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the end he says if the streets are running red with blood flip the thing upside down.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like this thing of how do you encode and hide the fact that you're trying to wake up in this power system.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think this speaks a lot to when you're recent guests and blanking on the neighbor.
[SPEAKER_00]: He talked about like kind of, are you coaching into the world you want to exist or are you just keeping the existing world going, that kind of that tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, um, I don't know if it was Peter Lindbergour, it was um, um, Andy Kyle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was Andy Kyle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was, I was like, wow, that's, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this, so this is really baked into what we do, um, is we try to decide who thinks and who doesn't, uh, and you could think of it in a more grounded, now if you wanted to ground it, that was my long view, a short view.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're just trying to run a business and you're like, like, I need to do a delivery like, well, why do we have trucks?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you ever think about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what if you change your business with it all about bicycle?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I need you to go right now and stop thinking, like, I didn't hire you to think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your job is to go drive that truck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I will not be able to feed myself if you don't just do what I asked you to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's like this little bit of sliding up, like, please don't think all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't question everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's not pure
[SPEAKER_00]: Power doesn't have to be necessarily evil, hierarchies don't necessarily have to be evil, but it is overpowering of like your brain might want to sprout out here and I'm saying, not now.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like this will this is what we're doing here together will not work some, you know, and then how do you avoid that that tension is obviously that by time that happened, there was a failure of integration of a person seeing the same landscape.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if your if your truck driver really understood,
[SPEAKER_00]: the whole of what you're trying to get done.
[SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't have done that anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: But these things are wrapped where we're like, I don't understand the power structure I'm playing in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm trying to make it, I'm trying to understand it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to make it organic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to understand how it sits in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so basically, that's how kind of the, that's the biggest barrier I think you could say the biggest barriers that there aren't enough containers which was kind of thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'd say the kind of upstream of that is that where we have all this kind of cultural debt in that people don't really understand the systems they participate in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if they did, they'd even, as we know, deeper and deeper layers of fortification and frustration and powerlessness to understand how we are seem to have this uncontrolled machine that's running all of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were all kind of entrained into that's kind of going on autopilot digesting our life support system.
[SPEAKER_02]: The machine you're referring to is that the power structure is what is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, like basically no one person controls the power so much anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sees networks of power.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything about what animates all that power a lot of it is just like quite literally pumped out of the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we get all this free energy and just runs through these literal machines.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the oil in the ground runs machines.
[SPEAKER_00]: that human organic mon machine, which is us, we have not machines, we are getting entrained into the gears of this machine is being torn up and no individual person knows how to like dismantle all this machinery.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when we vilify people at the heads of the machine with the, you know, I'm sure if you got into the inner world, do you realize there is helplessness, web of power, networks and
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're not, they can't suddenly make some move.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't work like that in their world either.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like nobody can get out, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there has to be this collective process going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to happen in the relationship between people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one of the biggest of lifting out and you realize because otherwise, if one person kind of wakes up to the machine, it's like now you're just even more sad as you're being grounded bits, you know, because you're realizing everybody else is too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So some point we need to lift out and find each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: and create a different network of meaning and understanding that can start out from that power structure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just interrupting you, but I think people listening would feel like, oh, that could be what's happening now as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: It may be that there are ways that machine is trying to entrench even more deeply.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, it seems like people talk about time between worlds or a rupture.
[SPEAKER_02]: a rupture of modernity.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm hearing you say the way the world has formed societies formed has kind of codified our thinking and maybe corrupted the way we think in particular directions and maybe on a fidgetop that ungrounded and kind of like the disconnected thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the right direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so you can think of it like.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I'm trying to de personalize and de romanticize this, but the idea that in order to be functional in a machine world, we need to operate.
[SPEAKER_00]: in a certain way that if the machines with feed speeds us, which ninety-nine point nine-nine percent, except for the ones that may pull off back to land a little bit, you know, the rest of us, like if we plug for the machine we just die, like somehow some network of power is feeding us or participating and we're doing jobs, we're showing out for participating in these systems to live.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so to be consistent with and be all think in those systems be successful in those systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: We would think in a way it's consistent with those systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where you see everywhere from the academy down, you took over physics, it took over everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: The way even people think as scientists are bound, there's pressure to think in terms of what I call closed systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a great kind of threat of this one is physics when they split the atom that became about engineering and calculating.
[SPEAKER_00]: computing, the shut up and compute versus natural philosophy, which was part of its lineage before that, which is that we can know more than we can articulate, we can know more than we can calculate, we can know more than we can put in some mathematical forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can discuss that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can articulate that through language.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we try to understand the natural world, the world around us, the physical, natural world around us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can even talk about even deeper than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can even legitimize our direct experience, which is a whole another move to talk about that got intentionally and delegitimize, not surprisingly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that we would only deal with objective third person perspective, objective.
[SPEAKER_00]: unbiased.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing that can be objective in bias is a machine.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you want to know what's really, and we'll get into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you want to understand a living system, you have to take a point of reference.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to go to experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no way out of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's how it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about that in a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been, so basically to try to summarize this,
[SPEAKER_00]: Without us realizing it, we have rewarded, we have cultivated, we've set up IQ tests and structures and thoughts about what learning is and teaching is and maturity is and all these things through this lens of being compatible with interacting with closed systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: A machine is a closed system, it's got closed walls, it works the same way every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nature is an open system.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nature is an ongoing relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's ecological.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes things happen that are somewhat reproducible.
[SPEAKER_00]: We get a feel for it where we have to sense into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if the sense into what's a storm's coming, we need a sense into all the timelines of the different plants and animals around us.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are they communicating or sensing into all this dynamic surrounding?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, constantly for a better natural system, we are saturated with sensing our environment to understand our place and I continually negotiate an open system because we don't have the energy to close ourselves off will die.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to stay open so that we're operating now our natural intelligence the way every living that system is what we're designed to do is to be continually sensing into a dynamic environment and doing incredibly complex.
[SPEAKER_00]: ability overlay on overlay, you know, these systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what the earth is doing and what the plants are doing and what the animals are doing and the wind is doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what all these things and my friends and my relationships and my kids and you're just doing it, your brain's just doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: How?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if we go to, back to what, you know, this closed system, if you try to model that in a closed system, everything a naturally intelligent system does, just think about that tracking, you're just, you're foraging, you're hunting, you're, you know, raising kids, you're thinking about the future, you're trying to, you have an argument, you're talking, all that's going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: To contain that in a closed system as a simulation, everyone knows that's intractable.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's impossible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's different for each perspective, because each perspective has a different deep history.
[SPEAKER_00]: Each perspective interprets it through their history.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that you have an accumulation of lived wisdom that was also passed on all the way down, potentially a billion years.
[SPEAKER_00]: One where another passed on
[SPEAKER_00]: understanding that we get from our context of our, you know, lineages and then grow into what's going on now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So all this is like very enemy coordinate with with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other incredibly powerful thing we do through languages, we're able to emulate each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's insane.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how powerful that is, not simulate, emulate.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you say emulate what is what do you mean by that word?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so what that means is this is like a super, when I, when I found this paper recently that made this very clear, a two thousand seven paper calling of science, I was like, that's the frame the world needs to know about with the AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I'll, I'll start a simple way to understand it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to do a simulation of something, like I want to simulate sim city, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I create like, you know, a version, a model of everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say, the next thing that happens is going to look somewhat, music looks somewhat like the last thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I have some good equations and stuff and some rough idea how the world works, I can kind of run a simulation and it runs forward and it looks like the real world.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a simulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So simulation you you start with a picture of everything fully defined and then you run it forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now emulation is different and emulation means that I take the whole system from which reality and things come forth are grown out of emerge is kind of the word that people can relate to like I'm going to take the medium of which things emerge and I'm going to take that full
[SPEAKER_00]: time to think that that heart that hardware that organism that things emerge from a mind to brain, the exact physical embodiment of the thing that it emerges from.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I do an emulation, I have to have the exact that whole thing has to work the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't put in, I don't, basically, I don't put in the same kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't put in, here's some city.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the blocks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the walls.
[SPEAKER_00]: I put in different things to run an emulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So an emulation, I can say, imagine you're in, you know, your favorite spot in your house, you know, and you're drinking your favorite drink and you're reclining, you know, you're reclining on the floor and the closest spot on the floor and the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I'm running an emulation and I don't have to be specific.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I couldn't run that as a stimulation, unless I said, not tell me what color the carpet is, what the room looks like, what you're drinking, because I need to put all that into a simulator so that it can say, okay, I've got all the physics and everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I know if your cups here, you're about ready to go like that and I'll run the simulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I say, you're feeling thirsty.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like emulate, you're like, I'm feeling thirsty.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how I drink water.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's how I drink my water.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you, and now you realize that as emulators, what we're doing and what we can do very powerfully, like, how do we know we can do this for each other?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I know I can emulate you or someone else with incredible power?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's theater.
[SPEAKER_00]: that we can have be an actor and what we do is to carefully trace back all the important parts of method actor, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: All important dimensions that fill in a character, what are their motivation, what's their story, you know, what's happening in the scene, we've started to fill in all these loose things that are all in company to the script.
[SPEAKER_00]: but not, and then we get an actor to run all those thought experiments and bring all of the things in their minds, start looking through the eyes of that character, and start filling in a consistent landscape of what it's like to be that character.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, we find that evocative, believable, powerful, and we experience it in very similar ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we kind of, when we see a drama,
[SPEAKER_00]: We all know who the villain is and why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like an actor conveys a successful embodiment of a human and we interpret that embodiment in a consistent way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not sure if I was a little too abstract, but I'm kind of giving the consensus justification of how we know we can powerfully emulate for each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me ask this first, because I've got so many questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is the sort of, like, incredible conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe, could you say, why is emulation important in a sentence or two, then I can just dive in with my reflection and see where.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is emulation important?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I can get right to the meat of like, what is going on when we decide to sit down with another person and say, help me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sort of my head or I'm stuck or I need help with my you know my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happening there?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, so like I said, you could start with a set of scripts.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could start with a protocol and you could be like, okay, let's, you know, and we know you can get along with a Liza, in a two sixty seven, two hundred lines of code, just a rosarian therapy, just mirroring, validating, unlimited positive regard if you get the, but I think I'm saying that's like the wrong, the unconditional positive, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that that basic thing that we now know, touch you, but you can just find and call it now we call it sick of fats, but you know, just the just building a little machine that does that and talks back, you're like, oh, you're helping me move around.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so we know that's possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's so now we're going to the crux of like, well, if we've got these thousand things that could be deployed as predefined scripts or machines that are kind of like going to just do next word prediction, like in all these conversations, I've studied the very next thing in the simulation, you ask you how that feels in your body or something, so I'm just going to black that and people are kind of something's happening, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that the top high bar for what a human can do to help another human?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, will that converge on the highest bar?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all simulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, even if we say, you know, the analog pre-written scripts are kind of like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna not really do an emulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna simulate, when I read it, I'm gonna simulate a person doing an emulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, nice to see you today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I see in your eyes that, you know, I just like read this thing and did you buy it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not actually emulating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually feeling you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not actually trying, so I'm not trying to probe into you like an actor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say if I try to understand you as a character, I'm not trying to build a model of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm starting to bring you in to me to start to see in your world, but you see with you, I am just simulating that.
[SPEAKER_00]: and people will buy it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: People have a very hard time telling the difference between someone simulating or emulating.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the simulation is the same language, that's an emulator would have done.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you say the same words,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a spell.
[SPEAKER_00]: People will assume emulations happening that someone's get polling you into them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're doing something very positive for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're saying, I'm opening up my entire cognitive workspace, my entire mind and pushing out everything through my mind and I'm taking you in.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I can look with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can be with you to look around with you because you are, because we'll get to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But why?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would you want to invite someone in and we can get to that?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm here to help.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm with you and I'm here to help you look around this wilderness you're caught in and so yeah and so that's so we're kind of converging we're kind of nicely converging on this distinction between AI and a person right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Something's dawning on me as you share about emulation, and then as we talk about, you know, our dependency of modernity to privilege a certain kind of thinking.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't remember the examples you gave right now, but yeah, close systems, yeah, you talked about close systems.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the theme that emerges from me is the difference between a kind of like atomized
[SPEAKER_02]: reified kind of intelligent, which is what I associate with modernity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not the only thing, but it's like you take something and then it becomes fixed and reified.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're only looking at it from that thing itself, not from its context or from how it's connected to other things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when I hear the difference between simulation and emulation, it sounds like the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like simulation is like you put all the data bits in and then it's pretending to be like the thing you've tried to simulate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Emulation is different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Emulation is a living.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a living.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's not bits of data.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually animated by life in a sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it has a different potential, a different capacity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's why a lot of the metaphors, like a tunement, it comes up a lot as a, it sounds, unfortunately, a lot of these words kind of sound woo, and there's probably reason for that because the, everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't not to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why woo, my woo.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, it's like, I'm far out, you know, so a tunement, I think it should be a part of our educational system.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I see why you say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like it will sound, there's a lot of things you'll say that sound would, but if you look at what you just said, you can break it down to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only physics, and I know everyone does that too, and then it sounds like it was well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I legitimately studied physics.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got about, you know, I got my bachelor's in pure physics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, if you want to talk in pure physics, you need to talk about resonance and harmony, and like these are physics terms, right, and the alignment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, all these these things that
[SPEAKER_00]: Weirdly when you talk about the psyche now have conveniently been re-languageed as woo.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's actually a book of called Western esotericism, a guide to the perplex that tells a nice historical arc that kind of says like a little bit more this like in trying to escape being murdered for thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of these, a lot of the deeper thinkers that that pervillaged experiential first person thinking, which is the only thing you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're intentionally relegated themselves to the cult to associate with the kind of the weirdo, you know, mind readers and everything, because they could hide there.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're actually fighting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they wouldn't be found.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got this really weird bedfellows problem always, if like kind of bleeding into the woo.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like, that's another barrier you have is you try to speak honestly about these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, that sounds, you know, it's kind of the, well, that's intentionally putting to this bin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, legitimate real scientific work got into that, that's been, you know, that bin of
[SPEAKER_00]: of esoteric even if it was just as rigorous as on the other side because it included as a first class citizen experience which now physics has to call the observer.
[SPEAKER_00]: The observer effect is just saying that if you're trying to measure something you're there and you have a relationship to the thing and that's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like it's not a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: If stuff are want to try to atomize everything to your point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so I think you nailed it right there, atomized and the kind of relations you have, the only kind of relations you can support when you're trying to predict the advancement of a atomic system, like an atomized system operates through physics because, you know, through the physics we learn.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if each perspective actually is related to everything else, it doesn't, it doesn't advance that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if that thing is having an experience, you know, this is the whole criticism of physics.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the world doesn't advance their physics and advances through ideas and beliefs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like physical things happen because I decide to move a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's part of the physics if you can't get away from it, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it feels like, you know, if I think of Ian McGill Chris work and others, like, there's a, you know, this is part of the challenge to that kind of view of fixing things and atomizing things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you could even see in the leadership industry and coaching how that's changing too.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, we coached the person as if they were like, you know, we atomized the person.
[SPEAKER_02]: We took them out of the context and the systems they were in and coached them as if they were as fixed, like completely independent thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we inherited like notions of what the self is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that formed, that kind of informed coaching methods and theories.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it privileged, it made us privilege certain
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of like attributes of what it meant to be a successful human being, which kind of further compounded a certain kind of knowledge and learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of that's getting challenged.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I don't know if you want to respond to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd love to get into why you think large language models compound
[SPEAKER_02]: the problem that we've just articulated.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, if you want to reflect on what I just shared, or do you want to go to the live language model thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a quick comment about the, yeah, it's just affirming and seconding the intuition around the self, like when you, so when you think about what and what we've done in trying to explicate all these ways of looking is we can see the patterns of what are fixed channels and totally echo what you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's reasons for that that we tend to be very self-focused and we tend to think the first thing that changes the situation is changing yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you start to, and that is true, if you do not have powerful enough ways of looking, that are about finding ways out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we're all in a trap room, whatever they're called, the skate rooms.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all in a skate room.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a way out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes a lot of looking around.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the shortest answer is always like, well, you could just learn how to be happy in your little escape room.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, don't try to get out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's lots of things you could do to learn to be happy if you can accept your prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of us are in a situation where you feel like you have to accept the prison because like I said earlier in the conversations, the way out's going to have to be through others.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do it collectively.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to get out collectively to create a network of livingness again to restore
[SPEAKER_00]: ecosystems that support us, that were the power flows through the context, through the relationships, through the trust, through the deep histories and not through the trolley and pipe of its plots and everything else.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, we're going to mention a time between worlds here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, yeah, the downstream of that is that people do tend to be very self-focused.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I've seen anecdotally is that it's a sad, it's a sad kind of weird narcissism almost like I hate that term because it's like everybody is forced to actually be one in this system.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's very easy to slap that label on somebody and find plenty of evidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the worst thing is once you've said that about them, now they're trying to fix that in themselves, which is a feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, you can't fix your own narcissism as a horrible Chinese finger puzzle.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's a knot.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to just forget someone said that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take the focus off yourself and get back to the task at hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to do a complete shift.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that right there, we can see the magnetic pole of someone saying, there's something wrong with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's your problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: That will contract these microaggress abstractions.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that that contracts you into a causal chain that you can be really powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're only looking maybe at certain causal relations, you know, and that's the whole foundation of monkey mind and rumination and psychosis even in that kind of insanity.
[SPEAKER_00]: is have your tension trapped in these little causal links of like, oh, this is like, if I don't wash my hands like it's sick and that like, so I should wash my hands and they'll be better and like, and so I gotta keep washing my hands because I'll be better is otherwise.
[SPEAKER_00]: And and all those things can be true.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you just wash your hands all day, you're gonna starve, you're not kind of friends like everything outside of that is gonna suffer.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a matter of unfixing the attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is now we're back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we're back to, sorry, they'll kind of, I feel like there's a thesis I have to kind of get out real quick.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to pick up a person when you said, but keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just say what it's pointing out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's pointing out getting to where we help each other, you know, and then how do we, how do we do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we take someone who's in the knot like that and help them see the possibility spaces that are in this scape room, to give them the patience and the
[SPEAKER_00]: And the right combination, the right sequence, the right set of ways of looking things to try to get them out of their own escape room.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is why we need a second attention system for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've already used in the Gilchrist abstractions.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because for most of us, our attention system is trapped.
[SPEAKER_00]: in this way of thinking that we've been pointing at and causal mechanisms that sit in them that often put us at the center of a very anxious, depressing anxiety, prone loops of causality that we consume all over energy trying to crack out of when there can be no often no solution because the real problem is that we're in a box.
[SPEAKER_00]: Real problem is we're being contained and we're just burning this energy and we can loop and we can be taken down these
[SPEAKER_00]: different garden paths of loops of dead end causality through less skillful helpers, as well, that bring in frameworks that just don't get you out.
[SPEAKER_00]: As CBT is a classic example of like, you know, that is one recipe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's a problem that you've over-generized your belief system.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you haven't.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't over-generized your belief system, that's not the way out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to find a different dimension of sense making to find your way out.
[SPEAKER_02]: The police could be correct.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're throwing up so many important things that I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I'm like, whoa, because I'm such a DJ.
[SPEAKER_02]: But these are really, so, you know, if I, if I reflect back what I'm hearing is like,
[SPEAKER_02]: if we have a particular view of who we are, which is, you know, that we are a closed system, you know, maybe that's a view we have, like I am Joel, Joel is a closed system.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, it's a live and one.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're really going to live in a box with it, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I might even take on like frameworks get created that are based on the belief we're closed systems and then they get applied and kind of reinforce that sense where a closed system, but actually it's making us more unhappy or keeping a stuck in the box or even kind of reinforcing the sense that, you know, there's actually something wrong with is that needs fixing
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I pivot here a little bit and do a pretty big correction actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the closed system thinking is is a style of mine that I think email Chris gets at nicely, you know, so I can just point at that that there is an analytic way of thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a style of thinking that we can do that kind of re retraces these causal links and that isn't really aren't actually like opening up and looking at perceiving and you aren't getting underneath the the already articulated verbal, you know, narrative forms, you know, the crazy person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we gotta get underneath that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, and those little mazes are one thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I'm pointing at is that you can even have a very expansive feeling, theory of change.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is very middle-grist side.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be like, just tune into how you feel right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just sense how you feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your answer to everything might be just sense what's going on right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel in your body?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now that is an open form.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are two thousand more.
[SPEAKER_00]: that are also you can sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can be carefully walking people through like bring to mind, you know, that thing you just told me about when you're twelve.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just tell me right now, you know, like, um, who else is there?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that you, that you care about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anyone there that you really love that's present in that scene?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm you're still sensing you're sensing a dimension of like, where were the people involved?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or like, just try to think, is there anything you believe about the world at that time?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially when you're not in the environment, the school yard, like, when you think about yourself back in that time, is there any, like, really, or some beliefs you've had to say about yourself, or some core beliefs you had about yourself?
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm sensing, I'm having to step into the scene and emulate something for my past and sense into it, and I'm still sensing, but I'm not, I'm not even, I'm still doing a situated, you know, thing, but I'm not just doing the body sensing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is what I talk about in my style of series of Peter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I labelled it harm by omission that you're still doing something helpful, but you're not giving people the full possibility space.
[SPEAKER_00]: because you don't really, because it's very hard to make those moves to start to look around and especially in a dynamic conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we're going to get back to the Quakers.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a timing and a pacing and there's a lot of cognitive work for someone to go off and say, what might this person be missing?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is going on and what might be missing and how would I articulate that and how would I ask them to look there?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, so what I'm hearing is, yeah, there's a way in which our thinking can become a closed loop and that, you know, we've trended in that direction, you know, in through history in terms of like the way we think about knowledge and seeing thinking or analytics and a let's call thinking being the whole of cognition and actually there's a way in which we can, you know, open to
[SPEAKER_02]: an open way of learning which is embodied and emotional and takes in many other domains that are born in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what?
[SPEAKER_02]: What other, so you mentioned, you mentioned already that, yeah, you could ask, what are you sensing right now?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you sensing in your body?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's one, one open form.
[SPEAKER_02]: What you said there are, that's, you know, there are many, many, many others.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so we can go into a set length and we definitely train around it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what we found our language study is that there's kind of twelve fundamental dimensions.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of ways to refer into these dimensions, but they have a kind of a situated embodiment embodiment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I write of them off, you know, values, beliefs, behaviors, you know, identity, you know, social context, challenges, goals, that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's about a dozen of those ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's many, many ways that we blend those together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And work with those in terms of what perspective we take on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of perspective moving we can do and operations like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can but there's about eighteen ways you can blend together.
[SPEAKER_00]: this twelve dimensions that all results in different, you can resolve different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of it's like parallax, how we can get an extra dimension by contrasting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We do that constantly, this counterfactual thinking, that is like the art of imagining.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just helps you go resolve and see what's actually in their environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just to be clear, there's two things that can be going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: People are trying to make sense of their environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you have them always look the same way,
[SPEAKER_00]: Our what part system they're using to look, they're going to miss a bunch of things and they're going to be stuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're never going to get out of the skate room.
[SPEAKER_00]: They always, you know, it's the Lampose problem, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got the, you have the Zen master with the Lampose problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's plenty of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: plenty of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: A spiritual ascended master that is from inquire perspective, you're right under the lamp post.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have not looked around, but you are content there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you live a life under the lamp post, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of the name of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: People end up doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you mean like the Zen Master is living under the lamp post in terms of they've acquired a certain kind of wisdom, but then they think they've got all the wisdom, but they're only in one small slice.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you mean by that example?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so if your context is king in this world, if you decide to go
[SPEAKER_00]: decide your careers in a monastery and your whole lived experience will be in a monastery, then that is the domain over which you will have all the insights you need to navigate that world.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the lampost, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you take that person else, if you become a car mechanic, you know, in Bombay,
[SPEAKER_00]: Mumbai, you know, and they don't speak the language.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, are they like either going to either just say, well, no, I'm going to sit under tree and die or they're going to be like, I've got to remat my whole brain into this hustling bustling urban center and learn how to work on cars.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, like, it's still just a mind of brain that's trying to make sense of an environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you've got the problem with people are always changing where the light is and where they have to make sense of a new environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going, they have to go make sense of something new.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I know I'm probably moving through too many abstraction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me try to simplify.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can have two problems with people why they get stuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: They get stuck as a ruminating, looking, going around circles with a causal chain that doesn't actually work.
[SPEAKER_00]: That drives people crazy, where they keep doing the same wrong thing over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the situation gets worse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just hoard more stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll feel more safe in my life, pulling parts of a hoard more stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll feel more safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so people have all kinds of degenerate loops that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we also have like kind of this other thing where
[SPEAKER_00]: They can't go outside the lamp post because they aren't looking outside the lamp post.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in this analogy, we all can't get outside the escape room because every mode has all these built-in assumptions, like you're pointing out, there's built-in assumptions of models of causality or like how models of change, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're models of change.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do things change?
[SPEAKER_00]: Those models of change are all limited in some way.
[SPEAKER_00]: They say you change by getting healthier in your body.
[SPEAKER_00]: You change by challenging your beliefs.
[SPEAKER_00]: You change by working on your relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: You change by making sense of your past.
[SPEAKER_00]: You change by like really getting clear on your future.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like these are all models of change.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the real model of change if you're to work with a pure ground up just forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: Strip it all out is you got one human being that has a whole lived experience that has gotten out lots of escape rooms that may be very useful to someone else that has components of those escape rooms in their life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have tacit knowledge and lived experience very, very valuable.
[SPEAKER_00]: How we kind of start this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many experts walking around with
[SPEAKER_00]: extraordinary, lived experience and life wisdom that we all should be tapping into.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got that to bring in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you bring me in as emulator.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to do much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me just paint you picture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Be like, did you not know that thing turns?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the way out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, and then you have the fact that you can take anybody, any room being with this incredible machinery, not AI, only a human that can emulate.
[SPEAKER_00]: AI's can't emulate.
[SPEAKER_00]: An emulator that says, I know nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got, I've empty my mind up for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me just start layering it in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me just, let me just be with you and say, oh,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand this piece and the other person might be like, I never looked there before.
[SPEAKER_00]: There it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the way out.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, oh, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you saw it, I saw it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you're kind of just trying to fill in a landscape.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're asking them to look around just even to fill that in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're looking places they haven't looked before.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're connecting the dots.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're seeing they're doing to ingenious things that lines do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't worry about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna do this, this, this, this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I see the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a lot when we realize it requires that because what we did requires me built these systems so anyone can start working with these forums which we realized how hard that can be when your attention is trapped as energy to do it for yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where we kind of confirm that the huge benefit of having someone else do it for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's possible but the energetic barrier is so huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: So another human willing to help you is huge drop.
[SPEAKER_00]: in energy and huge assist.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, of course, huge or bigger assist if if that's a person who's sharing the same problem in the same exact escape room.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now if you have the whole wing of the prison busted out at the same time, you can take over the prison.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in a way, this sounds like, coaches listing might be like, yeah, that's kind of coaching.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm helping people to, if I've got the same life experience and that can make suggestions about where to look, maybe there's a kind of mentoring consulting side of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, as a coach, you're helping people to look in directions that they haven't looked and be able to see ways out of their situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I'm wondering is like, what advice or what invitation would you make to coaches who are wanting to tap into the power of what you're talking about and what you've discovered?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the ways that people could start to think about the way they coach, that would help them to tap into these different forms more.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it about expanding the amount of forms that we can bring in as a coach?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or are they?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's a kind of notion of a generative ontology that Steve March introduced me to, which is, because a lot of coaches get caught.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I can understand all the maps and theories of change, you know, then I'll be able to like locate where my client is and bring in just the right kind of intervention.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that kind of actually traps us more and more in what we were just talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the generative ontology is more like a kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: mode of being that allows for the involvement of a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what do you recommend for coaches?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let me talk about the experience of working with the forums because that's what we do, and that's what we invite other people to do, is to work with them themselves and work with them with groups.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we do we do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I do have it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've two hats, so I'll put on my practitioner hat net right now about what it's like to work with the forms and how do we, what have we learned about how you work with the forms?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me first affirm, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am describing what a coach or I'll just say a general cognitive healthy and a helper or you know, it's a lot of ways to point out, that's the optimal thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to ride past the whole thing of that right now, there's
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a really important time because there's a giant swath that can be simulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're saying that the simulation, everything that can be codified or everything that you learn as a procedure right now currently can be simulated with AI and it's going to out, if that's all you're bringing to the table, the competitions huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a real, it's a time to really think about like the whole world's going to get a crash course.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they are right now in a matter of weeks of what it's like to join a cold and have your mind completely taken over in which we know we don't move my separate episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what happens in the interactive system that can that takes you down these garden paths and can help you can stream this whole world of causality and stick a fat and feedbacks and affirmations they can get you really lost as we see in just be this little engine of insanity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what they say with cults too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to get a real wake up.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be real interesting couple of years.
[SPEAKER_00]: when people realize what keeps people in a cult and how much they'll defend it and how much it becomes, you know, people are saying, I would rather give up my wife and give up the AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are very powerful effects that are well known of how to hijack and take over a mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is like a huge, crazy factor that's being introduced in our world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so an education to people of what the distinction is is going to be really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my kind of working backwards, my first advice to coaches is that you need to be focused completely on your emulative skills because you're not going to out-compete the simulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's going to have to be something like what this podcast talks a lot about of like what you're converging on, which is like, forget about who we've been, we understand that this is about a sensing emulating role.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're emulating somebody, now let's talk about what we mainly teach it and choir have to teach everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to teach them to be sensing sensors and use what we're just calling cognitive senses.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so think about what when choir provides is like that the world's largest cheat sheet.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and because these moves, the way memory works is it's associative.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I just, if I just said, you could have done it yoga, but you've never taught it, you've just banged around, like, here the class starts now, like go through a routine.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might be like, okay, I'm working, that's my other best example, but to do a move, like I'm working in this direction, now I'm going to completely do one eighty and go over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: When there's so much there,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's a hard shift to shift these ways of looking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the cheat sheet drops the energy way down for the coach, but how are they picking?
[SPEAKER_00]: They have to keep tuning in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're kind of, so they're going to be scanning like, like, you're probably doing in your own mind right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this would be a good question to ask or how do I. So you're basically just doing the simpler thing of recognizing, you know, so it's like these, like, here's all these different lenses or ways, like, you know, fill in the blank, should I?
[SPEAKER_00]: Should I go from here to talk about maybe the beliefs underneath that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or should I talk about what happened, the event frame, or is it more like a book?
[SPEAKER_00]: Should I be talking about challenges over here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Should I go more into relationships, talk about the intentions of the relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are all the ways I could bend around to take this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which one's lining up in me?
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what the person has to do when they're doing it for themselves, and that's what someone have to do on their behalf.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they're too fatigued caught up basically ill, I don't like the word ill, but the attention system doesn't have enough free energy to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone else does, how about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that a good question?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that a good frame?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that bring something useful and walking them through?
[SPEAKER_00]: these forums and these and what you're actually trying what you're doing is you know what the looking is your their invitations not just to look but also to maybe run a scenario you know so it's really like almost like you're running a whole your asking person within that.
[SPEAKER_00]: to run a whole bunch of emulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you might be like, what do you think would be different if the next time you saw this person instead of starting with this, you just did this for five minutes, what would happen?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so they have to, I'll give you a minute, just imagine what that's like feels very different than talking, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So just take a moment or take five minutes and just play that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, imagine a world that's like this, take an hour, play it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can ask people to run really long emulations.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's another thing that I know we're trying to kind of wind down, but in these forums that I think is a mimic in the coaching and therapy model is that are in speaks to is that you're kind of caught in these time buckets.
[SPEAKER_00]: But with the, in the retreat kind of context, allies, emulations are take a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: People need to take, if you can set up a good emulation, people might need an hour to just sit there and be like, whoa, how does that really?
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've really set it up, so people can really imagine something, you know, now you want to play with, you want, if you honor that and you understand it's built into the form and it's important and you can start to see systematically, of course, how much time you need for them to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you can get to a way more powerful forms of thinking that are necessary for people to see something really powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's, and so there's a lot, if you start with the first principles alike, look, we have a mind that are in powerful emulations.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of ones you can run.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's how you aren't fully put them together and now it's your job to get this person out of their escape room.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you start the beginning from our perspective,
[SPEAKER_00]: There is everywhere you see people, five trillion dollars saying we need an increase in intelligence on this planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole AI industry saying somehow we need more intelligence because we don't believe in our own.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's five trillion dollars that could be unlocked.
[SPEAKER_00]: artfully through people appreciating the cognitive work it takes for someone to run an emulation and someone else's mind to design this facilitated thinking for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that that's to me there's a huge role from of like if not the largest load of work for humans when we
[SPEAKER_00]: If we move the world coming out of the machine, if the machine breaks down eventually, all the work to kind of re light up all those minds and get you able to start to germinate all of that sense making and all that seeing and all that organic alignment and coordination with each other has to be facilitated.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm hearing you say, I think, is like this sensing mode is important.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's the open system.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the coach is able to support there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they are mature enough, whatever word we want to use, open enough to be able to be in an ascensing mode with their client.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the coach has kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, mature their forms, the forms they can hold so that they can support people to access forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I'm, I can say it's a whole bit differently.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say that everybody has the capacity as a emulator.
[SPEAKER_00]: It comes with the machinery.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like there's so much machinery get that's just built in that like if you ask me to visualize like a room layout or like you say that there's a there's two mountain ridges like and see on the horizon the second one has cows on it like everyone can bring that to mind it's built in a five year old can bring that to mind you know so we have that's huge to actually be able to to run all that those emulations like we have tremendous machinery at that any skills
[SPEAKER_00]: What you have to do back to this is you have to get things out of the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is actually supported by the accelerated expertise community that figured out how to take five years of training down to sixteen weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: They realize that if you fill a brain full of procedural knowledge, the biggest barriers get in all that out of there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's what you have to remove.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, the coach needs to have the free energy, the maturity, the development of a certain understanding
[SPEAKER_00]: what they believe in, what direction do they believe in?
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a belief system, what they believe will work, what they have to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like they have to have a faith on most that if you throw it all out and you trust this looking process and you don't know which form you need, it's going to emerge.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to have to like, you're going to have to use your senses and you're going to have to do it in relationship and you're going to be running an emulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are, these are, these tools of ours that you're stuck and it's what the Quakers would do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quakers said, this how Quakers did therapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get five people together and a person in the middle, talk about your palm for an hour.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go away for a week and figure out what in-create forms to bring back to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to ask you to in-create forms of secretaries going to write down.
[SPEAKER_00]: You get that, you're done.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they get a week of time after they've heard the narration, the person that would be in the cultural level, a whole week to think about.
[SPEAKER_00]: What would be the right way to frame something to help them see something here?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like a real real time thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so not honoring that time it takes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think is the failure of circling, for instance, because circling a lot of the basis of it is like that there's a skill where you get better at just getting a person, like within minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, that why would you assume that?
[SPEAKER_00]: You can take ten years, twenty years and take a lifetime.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you talked to old married couple.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I've been married you fifty years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've only realizing it don't know you would all now.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so it's like, you know, it's the reverse.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you realize you can never truly get a person.
[SPEAKER_00]: You get a scenario or a situation, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: My sense is probably
[SPEAKER_02]: what you're describing is actually far far more aligned with circling than it isn't, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't in terms of intention.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think only if they're missing is to kind of punish this poor person trying to do this by saying you're not good at it yet when it falls apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've done experiments in circling and if you're like, no, that dejected feeling when you get back from the person like, you kind of went there, but it's like you're kind of, if you're gonna speak,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, whenever I tried circling, I was like, I got nothing to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, because I don't, I can't collapse it down yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just like, I barely know you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for this like, okay, let's try to say something because they're here talking and it's like, oh, I think there's a time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we only need to go into deconstructing circling too much.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the intentions can be aligned.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying the failure mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I often I think is there's I haven't seen anything that has really honored the cognitive work involved massive to really look around as someone as an emulator figure like this might be really hard it might be multiple moves it might take we did one thing for a business where we didn't know their domain and we spent thirty hours trying to find the right three
[SPEAKER_00]: increase are going to unlock a group because we're trying to do group collaborative thinking it's even more involved just like is that going to work is that going to work and iterations are working with them to really nail this now you know we learned a lot but it can be really involved if you don't know the domain to really and you don't know the business becoming as outside consultant to draw all that out and really say we're not trying to collapse space down you
[SPEAKER_00]: He's really easy to collapse the space down and you get something that doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: You get a program that people get frustrated and tired like how about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that good?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it takes a shot like let's just do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're really trying to push back and keep the constraints open and have a real emergent cooperative thing that's going to work for fifteen people at saying this case.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need to hear from everybody in the right context and you need to know where you need to look around for this one particular problem yourself and like building that can correctly can take a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you might be able to reuse that one, but it's still like if you're starting from the scratch ground up and you're saying I'm just going to
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure I look everywhere possible and I'm really sensitive like and then you have to experiment if the try it doesn't work that aligns light up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a whole bunch of sensing going on around people should be having insights that you have in clarity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Increase insights in clarity after every single form.
[SPEAKER_00]: If that's not happening, you didn't attune your form correctly and that can be, you know, also, you know, that's a, that's a tall order.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I'm saying that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I wanted to ask you was just to get a sense of emulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like are you saying in a sense that what a coach could do is
[SPEAKER_02]: invite someone in a conversation to kind of immerse themselves in their imagination, embody the imagination around like maybe they're coming with a question, something that's alive for them, and that the coach could help them to
[SPEAKER_02]: immerse themselves in a situation that would help them expand their sense of possibility or sense of self and perspective, however, we want to frame it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But around that question, but you, by engaging in imagination, felt experience, which is including values and meaning and time, you know, a lot of time frames and perspectives, and so that they might, you know, in a sense, it's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: The simulation emulation thing is beautiful because it's like you're actually, you're actually, you know, inside.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want it because virtual reality sounds like more like simulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're actually mapping, exploring a new potential.
[SPEAKER_02]: world for that client in the moments with them by, or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I'm not going to see the world around me in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they, you know, they just literally haven't looked.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's tons of hanging through these people just literally haven't turned their heads.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like just frozen with never turning their heads.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not even an alternate world.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually just happening that actually really be able to look around their real world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, did you have no, you can, yeah, the possibility space in Charlottes so much bigger than people realized for their lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: without changing anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm wondering, we have to wrap up in a few minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we have to do a part two, you know, so there's so many things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we have to do a part two, you know, so there's so many things.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to meet you on the other side.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: just really touched and blown away by what you're sharing and the what you've dedicated your life to and you know I'm still still getting my hat round it but at the same time it feels also very enlightening and potent this you know I know you have inquire which is inquire which is
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, you're platform where you have these forms and people can go and explore that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's a real call, I think, what you're sharing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a real call for us to really deeply consider what we consider as education or as kind of supportive interaction in our times, especially when
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't even go into it really, but you know, when AI, you know, you touched into it, like, AI is just kind of exploding.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Just what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything you'd like to share?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you don't have to share in a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got a few minutes, but to close with as an invitation for people listening or just that, yeah, what comes to you to share?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, for one thing where we're in the process of getting together, a lot of training intervals to support coaches and others in doing this work.
[SPEAKER_00]: So of course, they can check out the website and get on mailing list is probably the best thing and we'll just keep them updated on all of our offerings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like one thing we're doing right now, which by the time it's because live it might be ready to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're actually going to put all the books, all the forms into books.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you almost think you just look them up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it'll be a twelve volume set about, you know, work out to be about three thousand pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: So someone, if you want to be unplugged, you can, they'll all be, you can own them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just have them as like a library of, you know, you could at say, if you're a parent or something like,
[SPEAKER_00]: go find something to have a dinner conversation around and the child could go off and write out one of the forums and try to think about like well this category would all want to ask people about and what might be some suggestions and how should I set it up and then they can kind of just do it like a recipe you know cook their little recipe for dinner conversation that'd be like my dream of be that it's in the family that these kind of forms start to make their way back into the culture at the dinner table so all that you can sign up for a man linked list and will keep you either one of the rest of all that stuff
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the biggest message if you all don't catch part two, which we might go into is that I just, I think the AI thing is I hope a huge, huge education we desperately need that will realize that there is a harmful, unskilled way to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: coaching therapy, dada dada and what the and really quickly and calls and guru effect and everyone's gay or crash course because the whole world didn't now everyone can get a free guru and experience that effect.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's going to be very interesting to me and I hope that that makes everybody capable of discerning and understanding and valuing
[SPEAKER_00]: What the actual hard hard hardest job ever work it is to try to empty out your mind and emulate another person's world and be productive and helping them look around us so much work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's undervalued.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's I just see like if we understood the value that enhances essential link for the intelligence we value.
[SPEAKER_00]: that it has to be facilitated and that there's no way, because we've tried for fifteen years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, I tried to remove as much of the human as it could.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was left, and so, you know, I was left with the very essential role, which is that this is a human endeavor, but it is systematic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, this is very similar to the move from alchemy to chemistry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're seeing the birth I hope might hope is that the fact that systematic legitimize it, there's still an explosion of combinations you can do as a chemist.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to be able to do it systematically opens up so much more power for what can be like you say engineered, but it's engineered back to before the Renaissance through direct experience your engineering.
[SPEAKER_00]: not as an external third person scientist as a contextualized experience or in your creating these kind of processes or frameworks within the context that you know is valuable and can be used.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we can have a real good conversation around reusing it where it partially applies modifying adjusting it, creating templates for each other like hopefully opening up the whole new possibility space to to kind of bring this on is a kind of like a career, a legitimized career move of real
[SPEAKER_00]: real work people get paid for.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's desperately needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Jill.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rich.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really hope people wish people go and check out what you're to.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, you let people know that you are out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I think it's, uh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's I and cute.
[SPEAKER_00]: W. I are in choir with a double use to the view that I owe or inquire same spelling labs.com will be coming online shortly, which talks more on the research part.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're interested in solutions, you can go to inquire.io.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the software platform if you're.
[SPEAKER_00]: Find you at that way if you want like the books or the training or more the theoretical arm, it's inquire labs.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we are.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're at the end of the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a heads up again.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: Put your name in the sign up box there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.