[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lorhound's podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're the Lorhound's Your Guides to Psycho History.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is our coverage of Foundation on Apple TV+.
[SPEAKER_02]: Season three episode seven.
[SPEAKER_02]: Foundation's end.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to get in contact with us, send an email, email, please, to the Empire at the Lorhound's.com or head to our Discord server from the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you like what you've heard on the support us or get ad free and bonus content, check the same link tree for our Patreon and supercast subscription options.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the other thing I'll note is if you want to, you know, for free, do something nice for us who've been enjoying the content.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave us a review on Apple Podcast especially.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I don't, I've realized that if I don't say that at some point in the season, only the people with mean things to say will literally review.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's put some positivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to just send some good vibes, five star review goes a long way.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will definitely appreciate any five star reviews and kind of governments that come in our direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you all for being here with us for another big episode of foundation, big reveals, big moments.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Marilyn, what'd you think?
[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, so much here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So much here.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just card to keep it all straight.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had to do a couple of watch-throughs.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also a lot more book points popping up at me.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that I'm currently reading the two prequel novels helps enormously.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there's a lot of stuff that I would have completely forgotten appeared there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a nice synergy right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there were one of two surprises, which of course,
[SPEAKER_02]: We always like a good surprise and interesting to surprise.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my gosh, a ton of opportunities for speculations.
[SPEAKER_02]: All kinds of new things coming out and thing, oh, oh, well, what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's still firing on our cylinders, plot-wise, visually, musically, just everything, the acting, the costumes.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's only one real challenge based upon some choices they've made in terms of how they're going to realize the plot and we'll see where that goes and I'll bring that up a little bit more later on.
[SPEAKER_02]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was fantastic and I think we had a reveal that was three seasons in the making with Via Demerzel.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really enjoying where we're going with the Dave Hotline with these robot.
[SPEAKER_00]: journeys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the fever dream.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: The visuals are amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the the pink thing coming alive was was absolutely fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we have what everything going on on the new terminus foundation on the first foundation and my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a what a fell swoop of a conquest by the by the mule.
[SPEAKER_02]: definitely, definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, knowing the good plot generally on you, what was coming, but the book doesn't really spend a lot of time in that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as a moth, of course, famously, not a fan of war, not a fair of a fan of violence, conflict and so on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he just kind of brushes over all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here, words being presented to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's intense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, Inber is interesting because you want to hate him for like the whole season, and then that happens and you go, but I didn't want him to go out like that, like that's pretty dark.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, they have some dark turns in this season, all three seasons to be honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: They do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was probably fairly predictable.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, that ties in with one major comment that I'll have when we get to that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you have the mule backstory or supposed backstory, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I was going, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought they were blowing up some theories of mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then by the end, I'm like, no, my theory holds strong.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I say my theory, I think probably every book reader's theory.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we're special for having these theories.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what the show is trying to lead us to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been checking Reddit to see if people are thinking the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it seems like that's part of the same case right now on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will compliment the moderators of the Foundation subreddit Foundation TV subreddit.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have dedicated threads for book and non-book readers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, that's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We do, too, actually on our discord channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we do have a specific book thread, and then we have individual non-book threads with strict spoiler rules.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, anyway, so come chat with us on Discord.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, my point is, I think this is going in a really interesting direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love Harry Selden as sort of the wink and the nod.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: What better role can you have Jared Harris do than a wink and a nod at the audience?
[SPEAKER_02]: He does that so well does he not he does he does and he and It could still go either way.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what's so wonderful about how they're presenting it
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, feel reasonably confident in the, our mutually shared expectation regarding that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I'm not putting it past them.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've still got three more episodes and given the number of flips and twists that have already presented to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: They all, there's probably more waiting in the wings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they could be there is an equal probability that they are faking out the book readers and the non book readers exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I and I think that's really good writing because it's keeping us on our toes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unquestionably and and pleasantly so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are times when other adaptations, if they start to seem to go off the rails and you think, well, I guess they're doing this to give us readers quote unquote suspense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd really appreciate it if you just stick to sort of the base.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: The basic sauce, if not point by point, lots.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's what I'd like about how they're handling.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're putting in all these book points here and everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, they are telling their own story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just really fun to see how they're weaving it in and how much in fact they're not contradicting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you think they might be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, really interesting how they're sticking really closer to the books on somethings and some things are like, huh?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is an interesting twist, especially with the Clions, of course, one of the Clions, not a part of the books at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Empire wasn't really involved in this part of the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, not to our knowledge.
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't see their involvement.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there's a problem going on, but we just didn't see it because that was not the viewpoint.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, why don't we get right into the episode and we're going to start with the Mules Tale.
[SPEAKER_00]: Years ago on Rasa, my young Mule harvest produce with his mother and baby brother.
[SPEAKER_00]: When they see the pullers and assessors arrive, they race home to hide the baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: The foundation assessors arrive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Find the baby and tell the family they'll be back to get rid of the child in thirty days, as there is a one-child policy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Before they can return, the mule and family go to a body of water, with the mule's father grabs him and attempts to drown the elder son.
[SPEAKER_00]: The mule's power is awakened, and he forces his parents to drown themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: He leaves the baby with the neighbors.
[SPEAKER_00]: After the mule finishes telling his story to vault Harry Selden, the projection questions its veracity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they say, awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the other end of the other limit, quote, unquote, years ago, which I think, very quiet them.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not knowing how many years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I also say, amazing casting for a young mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: if how much if he is.
[SPEAKER_00]: But no, but just to look at that, yes, compared to the older actor, that's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: They look so similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hair cut and what not can also contribute to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the eyes, the eyes were like the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and he's a very gifted actor to be able to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in similar ways that the three clients have been studying each other's walk and getting, we've seen in this season,
[SPEAKER_02]: this dawn slowly approaching his way to the middle throne and taking on more and more the the the mannerisms that we have seen in day and the other days in the past so that that's definitely a theme for this but yeah their death I think they're definitely coding this person as being a little I can still say yeah I suppose that's that's possible but I'm not going to absolutely commit to it at this point
[SPEAKER_02]: It isn't over to us over.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I found interesting with this section is here for the first time.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see something of the dark side of the foundation in the way that they are treating their quote unquote food planets and the people who work on them.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it really does seem pretty oppressive to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now can I ask you though, do you think that this is how the foundation work for a long time or do you think this is an inverse of them?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I think this is this is an Inver or you know, if not a title inver, this predecessor, whatever, because you know, it clearly has been going on for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: At least in generation.
[SPEAKER_02]: But no, we, we've, it's already been made clear to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, the last episode, Harry actually says the alter, he actually says,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, one is to, um, I'm disciplined and the other is to authoritarian.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is so authoritarian that I'm thinking stormtroopers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I think if you saw an and or the second season,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but we've seen real life one child policies happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I almost thought to myself like the real life one child policies actually caused a lot more problems than they solved, even if you take away the inhumanity of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it almost doesn't feel very foundation to me to have such a short sighted policy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, except that these are not, I'm not sure that these people even viewed as foundations.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the auditions that are not, they are resources to be exploited to the extent that it is possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they've calculated how many calories, you know, a person needs to survive and to do this kind of work and survive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure that they titrated from infant to young child to adult allocations or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, if the foundation is taking responsibility for a lot of things and making sure the resources are enough to go around, isn't it irresponsible to say, well, like a two child policy, maybe you could support that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Replace both people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Replace both people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Replace both people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Replace both people.
[SPEAKER_00]: A one child policy says the next generation will be able to produce less than the one currently.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're constantly bringing in bodies to work the fields.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but at some point, you have to make the people, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there has to be people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's another planet with overpopulation and so they just I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm making things up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's a good point to make.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very short sighted for the foundation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course it does.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, this particular iteration of foundation and its rulers.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I did always like the George Carlin joke where he says replace yourself don't even replace your husband hasn't he done enough and
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that comedy aside, I mean, it's terrible to be, you know, telling people how many children they can have and to rule in this kind of, like you say, authoritarian way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that combined with the lack of planning in my view, it shows why the Inber regime was unsustainable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's resource colonization.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's most brutal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people reduced to resources that produce resources.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in people's minds, who minds work this way, it's, well, we can always replace that particular type of resource.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, the answer is, no, you can't not even the food that you're producing if you're not producing sustainable.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't even know about that, but frankly,
[SPEAKER_02]: They code us with these massive round wheel machines that are, you know, trampling along and, you know, the dust goes everywhere and I'm thinking,
[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, doesn't look all that sustainable to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Somehow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, those machines did not look like they were picking up a lot of the crops, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They just looked like they were ripping it out of the ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't figure it out at all to be frank.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really couldn't see how this was supposed to be working, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't see my fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, that is a thing that you see.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in factory farming, like I remember my friends mother taught me how to make Pesto.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, hey, if you get the basil out of your garden, if you pick the leaves individually, you can just, you know, do a quick rinse in the sink.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you buy it at the store, they're ripping out the whole plant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the dirt gets everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you really have to like scrub the leaves.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, wow, I never thought of it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that I think about that all the time with like produce now.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe you.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's a good point.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the older child says to his mother, you know, and the mother says, oh, they're harvesting before we've been able to glean and the younger child says, no, we'll be able to glean after which is kind of a throw back to the story of Rachel.
[SPEAKER_02]: and Ruth and Susanie Ruth in the Bible and Ruth and Naomi and the you know the Gleaners who were allowed to come in after the rich farmers' fields had been harvested properly and they they left any they were allowed to take that and sometimes the good rich farmers would actually deliberately lead some stuff behind to be gleaned while I don't think there's any touch of that right well it's it's it's part of Jewish law you know to leave a portion unharvested
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know it was coded in the law, but I'm not surprised.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a part, it's to leave a portion on, on, on, for the, for the, for the poor, for the people who need it.
[SPEAKER_02]: the people don't have their own fields.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's seen as, and I always thought this was very cool, it's seen as a kinder charity because it gives some agency to, yes, to people to, you know, go in and pick their own food and feel like they have some level of control over it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not merely handouts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, which by the way, I have no problem with handouts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's give the tan people thing they need things they need But I did always like that idea of like and of course some people aren't gonna be able to to pick the fields and so that's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's not I don't want to act like I'm against handouts here But but I did always like that idea of like just leave a little bit for someone who needs something to go take Yeah, and the whole idea of the dignity of the individual Which is important
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's pretty horrible to think that your parents would drown you for the sake of a big sibling who knows what their personality is going to be at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So one can have enormous sympathy with the older child regardless of what actually happened here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm suddenly thinking there's a touch of the gales at this point because both of them
[SPEAKER_02]: get into their powers and feel them functioning when they are drowning, or feel like they are drowning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just to note here, there's an awful lot of drowning in this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And even more than that, for the first time in the, you know, there's drowning throughout the whole season.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the right back to season one, the nilth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Synex is method of execution.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that the planet is drowned.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we then see it later after it's drowned.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Gail in her future visioning and we have this older brother and that his parents and oh yes, there's some more drowning to come.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it does seem to be an ongoing thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can I offer you a speculation?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you should save this one for after after the credits.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I separated it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll copy pasted to our post credit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm reading it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, man, we're going to get deep into spoilers here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is interesting to jump way ahead in terms of the chronology of the episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very end.
[SPEAKER_02]: where the victorious mule strides up to the vault, and basically tells that it's life story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And winds it all up by saying, well, the pirates never took as much as you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a very interesting thing, I took up with a pirate, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I took up the pirate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to come back to that postcrank too.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good job that, dear.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had the same phrase here after his youth, he escaped from, when he escaped from Ross and he took up with pirates.
[SPEAKER_02]: So unconsciously that that phrasing struck me too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Atlas, they were brutal, but not the same type of brutality that he experiences a child on foundation, food planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But although who knows, maybe they were drowning people's view, I shouldn't have said that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was a lovely surprise and startlement when after
[SPEAKER_02]: after he finishes telling his story.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is after the closing of the vault after the Militak, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And suddenly we hear Harry saying, sounds like a sad story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder how much of it is true.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just put that out there for now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it seems that the vault is still ticking over.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I first saw it the first time of that, oh my Lord, did they kill the vault too?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because of the way it changed from the crystal
[SPEAKER_02]: Crystal Palace do this blackened shape and the ground around it was blackened and you know it was smoking and all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a mood ring for Harry Selbin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well but I'm subsequently remembered oh yeah after people are done with you know the annual or whatever it was the the crisis visit or you know sneaking in like endless like
[SPEAKER_02]: can't read the null field or whatever happens to be when he's done talking the vault does the same kind of thing and it rises up from the ground so it's high enough so that you can't you know just sort of jump up in my minute right I don't even think the vault mood or actually opened for abling mess I think no no no it didn't get just a sort of teleported him he was the one who snuck in as it were right
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting, the meal response.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the truth comes begging to your door.
[SPEAKER_02]: Harrington seldom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, what does Harrington mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it signify?
[SPEAKER_00]: Who ever called Harrington notice that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Pretty sure he says it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still don't have close caption.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just going by what I think I hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did see it two times or three times.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was three times.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and there's something.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just playing Harry Selton.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe I maybe is just something else that I just was never really catching clearly, but we'll be in trouble.
[SPEAKER_00]: Harry's damn seldom or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I got to go back and check this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listeners right in.
[SPEAKER_00]: We often only get feedback when we get something wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I haven't had a lot of feedback this season because we're just that good Maryland.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, gosh, maybe we should start throwing in an error here or there, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, remember when the mule took over snacks?
[SPEAKER_02]: Not quite so obvious in error, maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just got to say about this whole mule's journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: If this is true, and I am very doubtful that this is true, if this is true, would make you more psychologically damaged and your parents trying to kill you and then needing to flip it around.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, that would make you, I mean, to people of different reactions, but like, it totally makes sense that he ends up a psychopath, a murder psychopath.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one can question, where are they knocking off the older kid?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it just that baby was cuter by nature?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, couldn't bring yourself to a baby, but like, wouldn't you be more bonded to the one that's actually a fully formed person?
[SPEAKER_02]: And would this fully formed person be more functional on the farm?
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at all the helpful things he's doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's growing sprouts indoors.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's reassuring his mother that they'll be able to glean afterwards.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he's death of each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: He also eats more food.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no doubt about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if they scale the amount of calories according to the size of each person or not, or maybe each rather than size, they don't care what size.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is pretty awful to be perfectly honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you can reflect on the fact that
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of what brings us about is the greater awfulness of the authoritarian approach that produces things like resource colonization and complete and utter disregard for human life in preference to these resources.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the real villain here was the foundation, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If this is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I do believe this resource colonization, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that part of the story is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not convinced that this all happened to this person and I'm not convinced that this particular story and it is true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm with you on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also recognize that they in previous episodes, they sort of ceded this idea of food planets.
[SPEAKER_02]: because when Gale is trying desperately to corral the meal, she's saying we have to do this because if we don't, she's gonna have all the food planets, it's all this and so that kind of nicely you'll part in the pun implanted to the idea that there are some planets in the empire that are strictly viewed as food planets.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so why not foundation developing that same view?
[SPEAKER_02]: because they originated an empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're gonna have your bread baskets, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna have your areas where you're gonna grow your food.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, every country has up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, this is just a bigger version of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have global bread baskets.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now this is galactic bread basket.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, why don't we take a quick break?
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we get back, we'll talk about foundations and
[SPEAKER_00]: We're back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Han, preacher, panics, the foundation submits to the mule who declares himself first citizen.
[SPEAKER_00]: After being baptized in blood, the mayor shows the mule to his new office.
[SPEAKER_00]: There, the mule orders invert to drown himself, which he does with pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Han escapes by injuring himself to get the door open, and heads upon its side on unknown mission.
[SPEAKER_00]: His friend tells the mule he's likely halfway through creating an insurrection.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lovely, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that perhaps she doesn't know enough about Hans and know what he will do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that may be a bit of a red herring for the audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, my first thought was he headed down to a planet surface rather than head to second foundation because he didn't want to be tracked.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: He could get down with the surface and then take another ship, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or something, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm noticing now that the theme that Bear has scored for the meal sounds rather middle Eastern to me, or at least sort of that similar kind of scale.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's pentatonic or not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mark, if you're listening, let us know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mark's name in modal, actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Moodle.
[SPEAKER_02]: Moodle is a good way of putting it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought that Pritch's friend on the force Bear quotes a friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: might help him to kill himself rather than be tortured.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it seems he does have his own version of a cyanide pill, and it does not look comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely painful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then this gotcha later on.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, the audience, the last time we saw him, he was shaking in pain, and the blood was spreading, and he fell down.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were the door.
[SPEAKER_02]: The next thing you see is a very bloody, unperturbed body lying before anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But no.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to know, how did they create that illusion?
[SPEAKER_02]: How did he create that illusion?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's second foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know that now.
[SPEAKER_02]: But did he plant the vision in people's brain?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I thought that it was a physical tangible body.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was real close.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he, it was an illusion implanted in minds with his second foundation powers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he had two sets of clothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they stripped it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he could have grabbed it at some point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was outside of the cell, wasn't he?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was somehow.
[SPEAKER_02]: But how did he get outside of the cell?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, well, a lot of he opened the cell got open to treat him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He came in and killed or incapacitated that guard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he swapped some things out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all this happens before, in mirror, in the mirror, come along.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He pointed that hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: He made that whole scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the double gacha of him pointing the gun at the muil hitting fire.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what was it fire rejected?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was touching that he thought he could assassinate the muil with a handgun.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: to say it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's as human as anybody else physically, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet it's interesting since the meal already in California before a new that he was of a similar capacity as himself in terms of the myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did meal not just try and take him over from the very beginning?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not succumb to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, why use them or clumsy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know,
[SPEAKER_02]: handgun and whatever thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very nice visual, but not terribly consistent.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's some respect, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did Han go in near them?
[SPEAKER_00]: You will not trigger that same resistance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all part of some things that I would like to discuss after the credits.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do a book spoiler after the credit near the corner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's put a pin in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: moving on here in ver.
[SPEAKER_02]: Clued did not hold up very long against the mill's persuasion, but I never for a moment thought that moral fiber and strength were in personal themes.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not a lot of surprise here, I'm afraid.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I get more drowning as I mentioned earlier on along with the Russ parents and maven.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, let's not forget maven died by drowning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I guess he was already shot to death, so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for the way they presented his face and his very swollen tongue and all, I think there is a suggestion that, you know, he was still drowned as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, perhaps not.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love the transition they do from that they have that that scene of the last image of the mule departing after having dropped his baby sibling off.
[SPEAKER_02]: on the neighbor's doorstep.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, he runs away and they're perspective, the grass sort of rises up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then suddenly it's the grass outside the vault and there's the grown-up you will standing there doing his best to confront.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is seldom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nice transition there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I wonder how many more drownings we're going to be looking at.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her bodies hurtled into water or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is an awful lot of drowning.
[SPEAKER_00]: The visuals in the show are always ten out of ten.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is I think Apple's flagship pretty show pretty sci-fi.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it certainly aces it in that regard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pretty much every single episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it sure does.
[SPEAKER_02]: If part of the reason why they pulled back on David Goyer was because of expenditures, I'm really not seeing any sign of it in the visuals at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, I think they're cutting the budget a lot more for season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was that was what was going to happen more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think they did cut the budget a bit for season three too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could be wrong about all this, but yeah, I think that was part of my David Goyre won the lead, but the other part was everything got delayed with the strikes and everything and he's just been away from his family so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a show that you have to be on the site for a lot of it in Europe and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, he didn't want to do that for so many more years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't blame him.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, I don't either.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, again, listening to the bald move podcast on episode, episode of the same show, they also talked to Goyer at one point, or no, they wrote, and they got a letter back from him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And turns out, he's just completely dropped it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not following the episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just completely shut it out of his life.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that says something to me about, I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: how important this was to him and the depth to which he had committed himself to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sad.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish he had been able to do this series the way he wanted to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like he did for the first three seasons, at least the first two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm really enjoying his vision.
[SPEAKER_00]: So far, I hope that the next show runner sticks with that vision because it's a really special one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope so.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a hard time imagining how it could be improved to be improved on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We shall see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, why don't we talk about Empire itself?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dusk sits alone on his throne while the Galactic Council demands answers.
[SPEAKER_00]: He orders them to send probes to new terminus and recall any of the fleet that remains.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dusk then visits Ambassador Quint and offers her his protection.
[SPEAKER_00]: While he only has three days remaining, he and Quint finally come to make their thirty-year will they or won't they affair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dusk then kills the ferret created by day.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's it a ferret?
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I'm just checking here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, it's really interesting how the humanized dusk so much this season other than his whole black hole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I see, my big takeaway from all these sessions scenes is he was putting on an act.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yo, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where I was going with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really did think, oh, wow, he's a softer kind or a dust, you know, he's, he's thoughtful, he's caring for these other people.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was really touched by John's message, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fair, you know, look at that, he's feeding the fair out on his own table and, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he walks out and stamps it to death.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was really a shock.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I guess somebody who, you know, could conceive of a black hole weapon probably, it's just not overflowing with the milk of human kindness or any other kind of kindness.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's all of them can do this compassion act, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They can all act to compassionate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, and then turn on a dime, we saw a day do that with Maven, we saw a dawn do that with the affair partner of politician.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we're seeing that here with Dusk.
[SPEAKER_00]: So these these Clions, whether this is something that was in the Clions from the beginning, or this is the genetic drift, they are fully capable of psychotic behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, what he did to capitalists was pretty psychotic, but but also they're able to hide that they're able to mask that really well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I it seems to me that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe not initially, but by now.
[SPEAKER_02]: The the tripod empire has had to develop some sense of.
[SPEAKER_02]: being able to convince people and to reassure them and, you know, because they're sure not dealing with, you know, force and power over anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just picture that crowd of unhappy transitorians and visiting foundationers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Consider the contrast between that chaos in the Imperial Court and the one we saw in the very first season.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, those iterations of the empire during Harry's selfless trial.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you possibly imagine such scenes unfolding before the triple throne of that time?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that does what cozy up to any foundation or after that scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how is Trantor even getting transmissions from validation at this point because, you know, foundation was being basically funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to think that they can send their probes quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just say, like, he sent the probes.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're looking at it now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, but I think there was something specific that said, you know, we've been watching transmissions from foundation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe, but maybe not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it was Imperial probe instead.
[SPEAKER_02]: An Imperial probe droid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, initially, we see dust being really upset and disgusted by the appearance of days camel.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, capitalists.
[SPEAKER_02]: The appearance of capitalists suddenly, I'm wondering, I wonder where a maiden's family is now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did they escape where they executed?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they were probably either executed or memory's wife didn't relocate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be the kind of style problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the crime to Southcome would be to give them his pension and let them live out their lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: But sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although you could also argue it would be kind of she didn't renew that she'd had a husband who had been used.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, let's not kind of have that ethical debate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to side step that one Maryland.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, I'm not saying for again, I'm just saying they're their multiple perspectives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we do have a whole conversation about where the nut you'd rather have your memories back, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's up next.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you might think one thing until it has actually happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, not really appreciate the other.
[SPEAKER_02]: But of course, if your bit is gone, you won't even know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you've already mentioned that the viewing visiting this painting and then how it moves later on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've just always thought it's such a beautiful, beautiful construction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I wonder who made it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like did they hire a specific painter to do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this a group effort?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this digitally created?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this is a task that all the dusks take on, didn't we learn?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, there's real life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think this doesc actor is.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: There may have been some implication that yes, it was actually painted by humans.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if somebody knows, please write in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please.
[SPEAKER_00]: If not, I'll do some reading before next week's episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really fascinating to me the way this dusk is is showing such concern for Quint.
[SPEAKER_02]: and saying, you know, you have a safe place in the palace as long as you wish.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, yeah, I'm not going to be dusted in three days.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, how long is that going to be worse than you think in particular once, once he's gone?
[SPEAKER_02]: But that confession, if you go on a call out, that could also be the impetus for quite finally initiating physical intimacy with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when she kisses him, she says, I have wanted it for thirty years.
[SPEAKER_02]: So apparently they weren't, I didn't without benefits up to this point, which... Yeah, I thought that things had happened in a fair, but apparently not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I sure did, too, because... Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just remember the scene where he shows the prime radiant, and she's kind of cuddling up to him, and, you know, on his shoulder, almost kind of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So... I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose you could read it any number of ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I have a feeling
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, based upon the way he treated capitalist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think his prime motivation at this point is vengeance for the dawn.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if he thinks he can actually out smart, dimmer, zeal and, you know, whose clock is ticking for his execution three days from now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe he's just going to go full nihilistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's interesting to see in the next scene that Dave reminds us that even if you want to free Demorselle, she will not let you because of her program.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, absolute thing here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he's finally decided.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I can't, you know, if it's all falling apart right now, maybe my final act can be to finally take it out because we've never respeculated last time that because we know that the black hole
[SPEAKER_02]: that Gal was circling around, came right after the fight with him, you all in the transfer library.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe Dusk just turns the black hole bomb on Trader.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, sort of a good adammering moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if it's going to burn, let's have the whole thing burn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think of him doing a self-emulation here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe he figures that's better than just walking Tamely and then being dusted.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, that will bring an end to Empire.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he also hopes it will bring an end to himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, nah, I'm good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I have black hole shielding on my programming.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if she does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who knows?
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's talk about another emperor here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: On Megagin, songbird and ocean glass, send a day on a spore-induced drug trip where he sees visions of Demorselle raising him as a child.
[SPEAKER_00]: He could never live up to her expectations as she trains him to act as the other clearance do.
[SPEAKER_00]: He asked Demorselle if she would leave if she could, and she says she cannot wait love against freedom.
[SPEAKER_00]: She also reveals her previous names, including Daniel.
[SPEAKER_00]: After the trip, the sunmaster arrives to meet day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's quite a standard alert that doesn't still live.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really?
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think they were going to kill him off so quick.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had a lot of information that they played lead case at Healthy Salary and they're going to milk that for all they can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not to mention that Ocean Glass has a few questions for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that will ensure that there will be no need for Songbird to have to relive her memories.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and a live prisoner tells more stories than a dead one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want for sure, unless you can read their mind before it disintegrates.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder how day news that the markings on Denver Zells repair tool meant Earth?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: If this thing was made five thousand years ago,
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless there was something in that the painting we were talking about earlier of the history of the Brazilian Empire and all the rest of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe it's a kid you just asked her and she told him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that could be.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a joke.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a joke.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just interesting to me because, you know, by this time of the history of the worlds of the empire, it's been largely forgotten that Earth was ever involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that Earth was the birthplace of humanity in the books, I should say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's completely gone and novel and people have never even heard the name Earth at least according to the book, soon knows how they're handling that here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But song were just quite clear if there is a synthetic life on a trans tour, it could be the most important thing to happen to us in five thousand years.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she has ready to endure the memories from, but ocean glass, better idea, and favoring out more drugs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's interesting in this instance, song where it says, sports make you honest.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want us to believe you, this is how.
[SPEAKER_02]: and date doesn't look quite as eager to take these drugs as he was to indulge in other kinds.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think he knows that this is not going to be an easy trip like the other ones were.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, definitely not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely not.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's quite the trip.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, we start off being trapped in the cloning tank and then naked and then trapped in the pile.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was granted a belly button at one point, which I found quite fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I didn't notice that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember the exact right when along with it, but at one point when he's the full adult day and he's confronting them or something rather
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not, she doesn't exactly say, I will give you what you want or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're just this implication, no, you really want it here.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can have a belly button.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can be human.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of being trapped in the whole plane cycle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demorsel says, what do you want?
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you want to be born with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Make you feel whole, something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't notice that they put a belly button on, but great visual storytelling there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've really keen on this ever since I read about, you know, how much trouble they had making sure that he didn't let the belly button until he wanted it into.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a little pointy when Demerzel asked, why do you hate me so?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he responds, what else would I feel for you, my midwife and my martinette?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I remember some people saying we were talking about the different clothing styles that Tim herself has been wearing over these three seasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first season, there's a lot of coding in her costumes for governance.
[SPEAKER_02]: and nurse made and all that kind of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he uses the word, Martinette.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she really is his drill sergeant and that's where he feels he's failed because that very dramatic scene where the three of them are back sitting at the table and he's still this, you know, maybe ten year old.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, he's he's a dawn who will come a day.
[SPEAKER_02]: We still think of him as day.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the current day's childhood.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you will, I know he's been using anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something at the table and they whip out their napkins all the same gesture and all and and the youngest just, you know, he whips it out and it flies out of his hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you have to practice it, was it ever?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the question is did previous Cleans have to practice this because sure they're the same biological DNA, but like,
[SPEAKER_00]: your experience is also a shape you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, they try to give them as close to an experience as they can, but you're never going to be exact.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think I'm reading this as an example of just how far they've drifted genetically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Season one, we did see them do this same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was all exactly perfectly the same and they're all drinking their go.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's at the same time and whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I just read that is no practice needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's encoded.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they all just do it without even trying.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then by the time we get to the dawn who realizes he's colorblind and the rest of them aren't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think by that time he's he's consciously trying to mimic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because he's not sure that he's closely enough aligned and they's afraid they're going to knock him off.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just bring out a new dawn because he's defective in some way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's only at the end of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: whole cycle that they learned that, in fact, all by the way, we've all been poisoned with genetic defectiveness or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: They want to call it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a point that he says, even at our best, we disappoint, which Gale, how many kids in their adults in their childhood have had those same kind of experiences?
[SPEAKER_02]: from parents, they feel that they are not meeting up to the standards.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether or not it's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's self-inflicted, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it can be.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is why I have always pledged to be very explicit in my praise for my children, because I don't want them to feel like they have to prove themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and interesting that you use that particular phrase, because that very thing comes up at the end of this episode with Randew.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and that's why I say explicit, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of parents give implicit praise.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, they go, they just don't say anything for a common word.
[SPEAKER_00]: They only say something for a negative.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that it's very important to say your praise out loud.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, John, I said it before, and I'll say it again.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're absolutely fantastic and fabulous, Father, and I think your kids are lucky to be your kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I appreciate it, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did have to come down a child who really wanted to watch TV tonight, so... I'm sure that was...
[SPEAKER_00]: exercise for sure was an exercise in patience but you know what we read some books and it was all fine so anyway anyway I wanted to talk about
[SPEAKER_00]: this implication of, you know, why can't, you know, you can't, you can't free Demosal yourself, she'll kill you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because her, yes, it's a server-reject empire.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and Song is obviously furious.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is the end implication of that is you can't free Demosal as long as Empire exists, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, well, I mean, the question is if Empire no longer exists,
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens to Denver's all?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she's free at that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she's easy to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, but only if somehow that that command has been released from her, I don't think that the deaths of empires is necessarily going to lift her out from under that stricture of, you know, your primary function is to keep Empire alive because she's failed in the prime function.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, so now I back to the whole VJ thing of execute your prime function, your flawed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she would at least be able to be tampered with again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Only if you could somehow put her out of commission.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what if what if that paradox of save empire, but it doesn't exist, what if that breaks her brain, her positronic brain?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can't handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like in the robot myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, but in the robot novels, the robots, if they accidentally hurt somebody, their electronic brain just goes haywire and they can't handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wonder if this is like such a breach of the prime directive here of her zeroth law, will she break and will somebody be able to fix her in a way that gives her freedom?
[SPEAKER_02]: If her breaking doesn't deteriorate all of her systems, how do we, how far does the breaking grow?
[SPEAKER_02]: go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, she gives us three names that she has had.
[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned the Neil.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also Eto and cheddar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are those books significant?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I only know about the Neil because I've read a couple of the robot books.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you had time, I would urge you to read the two prequel novels.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just astounded at how much material they're pulling out of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: What what I found really touching what she's when demos also says I cannot weigh a love against freedom She guesses that if she were free I would make more beings like myself more robots.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is Again a generative desire.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost as if she yearns to to be a mother to be a pro creator
[SPEAKER_02]: and one fashion or another.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if, you know, if she's struggling so hard with these more or less human constructs would it be easier with, you know, a baby robot?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also really interesting that, because we were debating, could she make more of herself, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she did say she was the key to more of her kind at some point, but like the question is, could she?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know she's the key, but could she herself do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think she could based on this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: You may be right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another thing that pops in my mind is when day tells songbird that even if you tried to free her, she would kill you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: What songbird's response is, that means you have violated her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you have broken her integrity.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've done something horrible to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, Dase just fell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, wasn't me.
[SPEAKER_02]: He personally wasn't this iteration.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't even around at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, darn that clay on the first.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am telling you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how is it that song where it knows dimmer cells all of a by?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or was that just blending?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I wasn't quite clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could well have just been blending, but I did wonder, you know, was this something that been handed down amongst the members of the inheritance for five thousand years?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I could see it go either way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it could have been blending.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could have been something passed down like a secret song.
[SPEAKER_00]: But who knows?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I just say that Sunmaster really looks some Egyptian to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think his voice matched his face.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't either.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said exactly the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going to be very old and he was not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: The gray beard, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, I didn't, you know, he could be Egyptian only once or or Arabic only once.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I thought he'd be older with that voice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the older voice conveys this notion of, you know, wisdom, longevity, the elder, you know, clearly had it the quote unquote tribe or the
[SPEAKER_02]: the intelligence cultists or whatever it happens to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, he got this staff with a skull like figure on the top and I think yeah, he calls it the brazen face of God.
[SPEAKER_02]: And supposedly it's going to scream days fade aloud.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, you know, we're kind of off the sci-fi rails at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're so deep into religion and cult and
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think religion and culture, but well, Tron in sci-fi.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and not so much in the foundation series and in Asimov's whole mission.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was not a fan.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, remember that the foundation went through a quote, a religious phase and it was a good thing when it was done.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, this mirrors the books in Safari as having the Microgens have this
[SPEAKER_02]: cult-like society that harkens back to a religion that goes back thousands of years.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that that all tracks.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they didn't have these kinds of rituals.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, visual medium, maybe this makes it more powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was odd.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wasn't on the drugs.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't any drug induced anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, this is weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and he's some master, Amy, whereas in the book he was some master, but maybe that reflects, you know, because those were the prequel, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So now what more time is passed, so maybe it's just saying, ah, right, this is a different story.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could have been seventy, seventy six generations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe the future from.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, all very interesting material and very interesting look forward to see what they're going to do with it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, I am very excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's finish out the episode with the Malos.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Torrin carries beta to their ship in places her in the escape pod with a medical unit working on her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uncle Rando appears in the ship and tries to convince Torrin to join the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Torrin realizes his uncle has been converted and soldiers arrive to capture them all.
[SPEAKER_00]: They take beta and shoot Rando, but Torrin narrowly escapes in the pod screaming all the way up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was a horrible exit, wasn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And kind of just say, I don't think that Bada had been put in the escape pod.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she had been put in sick bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I think it was in escape pod.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the same pod that he ended up in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it was, John.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really don't think it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am pretty sure, but I'll go back and check.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it doesn't fundamentally change either way I don't think, but I think that the sick bay in the pod were one in the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, listeners right in, we can both go and we watch it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe after we watch this, maybe I'm crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was all very confusing in my first view, but in the second view, I just noticed these differences.
[SPEAKER_02]: My first, I thought that Toran had shot Rando through the, through the head, through the window and I thought, well, their closest safety pod, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But in the second view, I said, oh, no, he was shot from behind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, no, that was the Meal's man.
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I think he, he just didn't, he couldn't bring himself to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm sure he couldn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure he couldn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he didn't need to.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the end, if you look at it in that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the line that Randy takes, the mill's problem was with the powers of Pete.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's fine with people like us.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll have a chance to make the bastards pay up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, of course, I'm right back to that first scene of this episode in the experience on Rosson.
[SPEAKER_02]: which certainly inspired the older child to want to make the bastards pay up.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can see where all of this by too creative class warfare or kind of stuff is coming from.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so incredibly poignant when Randy tells Torin, you don't have to prove anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a result of, look at all what you've done.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fabulous.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Toran almost chokes saying, yeah, I used to wish you to say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But of course, now with this whole mind-control thing, who knows who's talking there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's certainly not a Korean-do free of any influence with all his faculties.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did double check just now, by the way, with the subtitles, it says, Evac modules, crashes already, medical crashes already working to stabilize her.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was the Evac module that Beto was in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, they must have had more than one because I don't think that was the one that Toron ran to help because the whole timing of it, they carried her out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it is the same one, but he seemed to open something new.
[SPEAKER_02]: and get into it and close it, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think they took her out and then it closed and then he went back to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it doesn't really matter that much of the plot.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to before we get a slew of emails.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was with the escape pod.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that certainly makes more sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: But everything was going pretty quickly and as I say, I did not have close captions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we got to figure out why your close captions aren't working.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that initially when I wrote in, they were fabulous.
[SPEAKER_02]: after the initial things I tried and I reported, no, it didn't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't heard anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they don't have any answers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could be.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're not all seeing an all-knowing even with technology.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And where is Magnifico?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_02]: The last time I remember seeing him was falling a platter in his face in the field outside the no field of the vault on your turn.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, because now, um, you know, military mule Viking mule is able to make in were enjoy his own death, which he claims in the star gate.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he could not do because he'd lost a valid ear.
[SPEAKER_00]: So does he have him back?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does he, but why aren't we seeing him?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I think, um, Magnifico has to still be around because with
[SPEAKER_02]: beta being taken.
[SPEAKER_02]: He may be the only one that can make sure she's all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does he have that power?
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess he has the Vizzi Sonor.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has the Vizzi Sonor.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has defensive her in multiple situations.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it couldn't be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, this was just a tragic scene with Randy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You talked about this whole like wanting acceptance earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think we need to rehast that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I thought it was a great way to show conversion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we've seen people that we don't know be converted.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this was the first time I think we saw somebody that we already knew and like be converted.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that I think is more interesting to watch.
[SPEAKER_02]: It definitely is and it's also more devastating because
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I wanted Randy to have saying this thing all along.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nephew.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now to hear them, I mean, it's just Toran's utter devastation.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's hearing them now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's he could have, you know, it was the thing he most wanted in all the world, maybe, and suddenly now he gets it, but it's completely meaningless.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, that's just really, really grievous.
[SPEAKER_00]: That and the fact that
[SPEAKER_00]: This is someone who bases his whole life on resistance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now he just goes, you've never felt such love, he says.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is, not just reverence or loyalty, but love.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we see the mule in the end, in the flashback saying, you love me, and you love being under the water, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yes, that seems to be what he wants more than all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's almost like, you know, I have to kill you, but I'll, um, anesthetize you first.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to kill you, but you'll be happy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is, yeah, it's so messed up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just so messed up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, I forgot earlier to mention we were talking about Denver Zells appearance in, um, you know, days rather trippy drugs thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: there's one scene in which she's at the end of a quarter and you see this very long neck and almost a head that could be almost like a bird head and her arms are hollow but down on either side making these sort of semi circles.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really was thinking of now goddesses and I did have a couple of links here if we think any of them are worthwhile sufficiently.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can we can them in the notes or somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can just put him in the chat too, as far as that goes.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this extent to which book Harry collaborated with the version of Denver's cell creation, psycho history, definitely tracks with the extent we're seeing it here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, having that background knowledge is, you know, it's really pretty amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like this idea of these bird goddess images that you posted.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess people just look up bird goddess, Nail goddess.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot of different stuff out there and a lot of it doesn't look anything like what we see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this particular scene, but I think it's sort of an amalgamation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, you know, just go ahead on on yourself if you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: I picked out a couple of specific ones that were most similar to
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you could post them in the discord.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, I'll do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any other speculations you want to talk about?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, tons and tons if you think they're all safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we could just move it till after the credits if any of them are not safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it looks like there's a lot of them that are safe from book spoilers.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, I'll start off and if they're not safe, you can be a little move on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll edit it out.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have the power.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have the power to make me sound better than I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: So first thought, on the discord channel, there were many listeners speculating as to why Harid didn't tell Gale about Timmerzill's part and the development of the prime idiot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my first thoughts on that were, I don't think that Harry ever shared the entire plan with anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: With the possible acceptance of race, but of course, race is dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he does make sure that several people know large chunks of the whole.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this may be his own form of installing redundancy that, you know, we heard Gail talk about, you know, the second foundation as a redundancy for the first.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, you know, throw two mentalists into the whole picture, and it does tend to skew things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, it's been made clear to us when they're getting that gale was not supposed to be there at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Racial was supposed to be the one to start the second foundation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that too is where I'm just keeping with the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's also possibility that how are we supposed to take all the credit from self?
[SPEAKER_02]: And didn't want anybody to know that you had taken the data from a robot, which, you know, on the one hand, would be shocking in and of itself because they aren't supposed to be any robots, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that could just completely over take societies and planets and whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, probably, radiant.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, there's a significant quote here from Prelative Foundation.
[SPEAKER_02]: After all, you, Harry, are vain enough to want full credit for cycle history.
[SPEAKER_02]: You would not want anyone to know ever that you needed to help the robot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And retrospect, I think that's very much in keeping with the characters of Harry that they're presenting to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he does have an ego, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he literally made himself immortal with redundancy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So another thought, we had gone back and forth about where they're not day brought drugs, where the things he bought from the sweet seller were drugs or sweets, and he specifically says to song, where they brought you some F and candy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think if they were drugs, he would have said F and drugs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But oh, and we discussed, had anybody said sell them to help sellers who helped themselves recently, and yes, they said it in episode six.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they do keep
[SPEAKER_02]: putting it in there every so often.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the point I mentioned at the very beginning of our recording here.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're beginning to run into one of the real challenges of telling a story which involves the ability to alter people's minds.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because after well, you start to wonder, well, did this character do this of their own volition or are they under influence?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if everybody is under influence, then what does it matter what they do or don't do?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's a really tricky thing to handle.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't name any other stories that I know that that uses sort of thing at the moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm already finding Mustang King well, you know, someone so did this or that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe they're under the influence.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we will have to see how they handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This could go very badly in a storytelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: As sense, but I think it could go really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the books handle it really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm hoping the show continues out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was beginning to wonder, is it possible that Demresil might have rescued Don in time and have him stashed away somewhere ready to come forth on an expected moment?
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, going back to my whole thing of, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: She said, oh, you weren't dead, Gayle, your heart just stopped.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that she probably has dawns shoved into her chest cavity like the primary day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh, there's an image that I really didn't need.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a partisan, you know, it's bigger on the inside.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we've all said, oh, and Gayle herself says we can just go back into Canton, another one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's when she has this really, really ferocious, outburst of I raised him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that might argue for the fact that, yeah, not really, not this time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, I think Demosal believes that Tana's dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that Demosal believes Tana's dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know Tana's dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think she believes you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think you can still be alive without Demosal intervention, somehow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, if, you know, as I hypothesized, Desk was going to use the lackhole bomb on a train tour,
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter how many decantings.
[SPEAKER_02]: Demers all might have right not do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm assuming that, you know, the whole Chrome cloning up radius is not going to survive being attacked by a black hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I am excited to see where all those goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for now, I think they have to keep our lips sealed until after the credits where we will be talking about some book spoilers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we will.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for now, let's do a quick outro.
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure that you check out all the affiliates.
[SPEAKER_00]: Never mind the music is doing their weekly coverage of music in psychology.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lovely stuff over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We keep shouting out Mark to answer our music questions when you can't remember thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And probably how would movie review?
[SPEAKER_00]: They are covering bacon rap, which is a six degrees of Kevin Bacon type of draft of movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're having a very fun time.
[SPEAKER_00]: They, you know, silly breakdowns of movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll have a good time.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll ship dust is doing their doomsiries and we'll also elishable also be on the Star Wars can a timeline feed again soon doing more can in timeline Star Wars can in timeline reviews in order without spoilers radioactive rambling is Doing their fallout lore and they'll be covering fallout in December when it comes back and Marilyn you have your own podcast rings of ritual rings and rituals I can't talk tonight
[SPEAKER_00]: Where you are talking with Dr. Sarah Brown about season one of brings the power and I know you'll be back before season three to talk about season two.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the plan and I am looking forward to it, but I can't start my rewatches taking notes until after we're past foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fair enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll, you know, we probably won't start the recording until early in twenty twenty six, but definitely be able to broadcast things leading right up to the
[SPEAKER_02]: the first episode of season three of brings it power.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm excited to hear more from everybody on the network.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the network, we just had a Alicia and John are putting out a podcast this week.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it should be out by the time this drops on peacemaker.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're recapping season one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to be prepping you for season two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, David is covering alien earth full time.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's doing full coverage of alien earth.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched it for episode fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I listen to their coverage also fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: They talk about how they use child psychologists to make to help the actors act.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they talk about how, uh, you know, a lot of different production issues, how it relates to the prequels that already were out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, I, I learned a lot just listening to their podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, huh, this low-hounds podcast is pretty good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So go check out David's Alien Earth coverage on the first two episodes he had Alicia and Luke, also hosts of Wolf's If Dusk.
[SPEAKER_02]: So very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be doing second breakfast on Poutine this month for subscribers as well as, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: covering a movie that has yet to be, oh, no, I think it's going to be airplane.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if the poll has ended, but like airplane is like fifteen votes ahead.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't, I think it's going to be very definitive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's going to be a fun one.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you want to hear us talk about airplane, don't call me surely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just sign up for the, you know, this sign up for the supercaster page around.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, plenty of other stuff coming, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_02]: Including just recently dropped as of this recording, Alicia did a one shot for seasons one through three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of the guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for reminding me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to remember all the things we have.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have too many things going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Too many things to remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: The guilty age with our lovely contributor and moderator of the community, Brian, eighty sixty three and his sister.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, how wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: His sister Red Zippy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen any.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I've always seen one or two episodes of the season one, but I might just go ahead and listen to their one shot, even though I will be monumentally spoiled.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you can kind of see where the major plot threads are probably going to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're going to really enjoy their coverage.
[SPEAKER_00]: They talked for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had a great time with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alicia was saying how good everything was.
[SPEAKER_00]: So listen to Brian, Lisa and Alicia had to announce it there.
[SPEAKER_00]: To, oh, I see Alicia made special art for it and everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So go check it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, everybody, quick thank yous.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have our Discord server boosters, Aaron K, to live the thriller Doves-Sovety-One, Athena A, Lestu Nancy M goes to partition and radioactive Richard, and our lore master, Samarshan Michael G. Michelle E. Brian P. S. C. Peter O'H.
[SPEAKER_00]: Adam S. Nancy M. Doves-Sovety-One, Brian A. D. Sixty-three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Frederick H. Sarah L. Garath, C. Matthew M. Sarah M. Entra B. Kwang New.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dead I Jedi Bob, Nathan T. Alex V. Sub-Zero, Aaron K. Dally V. Mothership, Sixty-One, Narls.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kathy W with a stew, Jeffrey B, at least to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you'll have Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Colle S, Illmariel, forward slash Tim, Paul K, Bobby C, Jessica H, Red Zippy, Lisa.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is our newest lore master.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for being on the guilty dates.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking forward to listening to that episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll listen to the spoiler free section because I've never watched the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, and Adriana is our last one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to skip our last, our last, our always last, Adriana.
[SPEAKER_02]: But never least.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really helps enormously, and it's great to have such a wonderful crew.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's fun to hear from all of you on the discord channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, if you want to hear book spoilers or you're not averse to them or you've read the books, stick around after the credits.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about some theories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Lower Hound's podcast is produced in published by the Lower Hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the LowerHounds.com slash contact.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get early and at free access to all Lower Hound's podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lower Hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, Marilyn, we've got some things to talk about here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we sure do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I jotted down some of your notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So why don't you start with that speculation you wanted to talk about earlier?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which one about the meal?
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote it after the outro.
[SPEAKER_00]: It down here.
[SPEAKER_00]: The meal being the older child or the younger child.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting to reflect.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my first thought was, well, okay, maybe he is and maybe the baby becomes magnificent because
[SPEAKER_02]: insufficient food intake as an infant can develop, you know, affect brain development and all kinds of other things.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just don't know, he they're coding him visually and also in terms of the, you know, suddenly, getting these abilities to tell people, I put a journey and you're going to love it, which are certainly coded to
[SPEAKER_02]: The Viking Meals, I like to call him.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the series.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the very last thing where he puts the child down on the stoop and leaves his last piece of candy with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I first thought, oh, we'll go to he has enough of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I thought, but why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why does he not drown his little brother?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who was all the sister, whoever?
[SPEAKER_02]: That was for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, true, but still, you know, this was this was the one that was responsible for, you know, I mean, he wasn't responsible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me and daddy love you more than they love me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, you could see a child reacting like that, but I, he is older than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you could, you could also see a child not reacting like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like you didn't do anything wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was our parents, you know, we didn't have to fight.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then at the end,
[SPEAKER_02]: When Southern says, you know, a very sad story, I wonder if it is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you said I wonder how much of it is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: How much of it is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll completely full of shit here, but not, not willingly, not willingly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think this mule is not the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Magnificos still the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is an implanted memory from Magnifico.
[SPEAKER_02]: which then begs the question, well, who is Magnifico, which is why I was thinking initially, well, maybe the baby brother.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if it's just some random pirate, that's a little more, I don't know, a little less satisfactory to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that the Mule was the pirate that that was terrorizing them and Magnifico as the Mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: joined up with the pirate because he said I joined up with the pirate that was terrorizing us right so so I think Magnifico grew up joined up joined up with the pirate and then made the pirate thank he was a meal and implanted these memories
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting so we don't know anything about the origin of the magnificent code right I mean it could be that part of that is true like like maybe maybe that that happened to Magnifico but Not you know that that person was Would look more like Magnifico right the the kid would look more like Magnifico
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I really do have to say that visually they were leading us down the path of yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the one who you see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the real one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that they added Harry at the end because it kept my hope alive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll be interested to see if, you know, what happens with the younger sibling?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did enjoy that they said, or I thought it was interesting that they said he took up with the pirate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, like I said, I think that that is who the mule is, who this current, who the outward mule is, is that pirate?
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, Han was not affected.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about that when he was running up to the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was not effective this time and the mule wasn't trying to get into him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course not because this mule is not the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Magnifico is missing right now, so he's on the planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Magnifico, first of all is the one who over broadcast was able to, you know, turn all these pilots, turn all these captains.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when he was playing in that room,
[SPEAKER_00]: he was converting the people there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he left out beta and torrent because in the books there was this whole thing of the mule wanted to leave beta pure because the beta actually liked him and was like him and he didn't want to take away the genuineness of her love for him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was the one who ever showed him any affection and kindness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe she leaves him.
[SPEAKER_00]: She calls torrent her pet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he doesn't take torrent seriously and he's like whatever I'll leave the pet on touch so she's happy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty much how my thoughts have been turning all along.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I said what I said about, you know, maybe beta will be protected by, you know, um, Magnifico.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: When she's isolated by herself and uh, found a new foundation ruled by, um, and by the military meal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to, it's hard to keep teams of reference here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm calling him like the outward mule, the public face, the face of mule, like the face of bow and doctor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think I am still firmly planted in Magnifico.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: The mule is really a puppet.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a figurehead.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm still of that mind as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we just have to wait and see.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think also, I just think that they're going to drag this out to the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is going to be a big finale reveal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, we don't even have access to the finale right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so trust me, I'm not spoiling it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you could tell based on our coverage that we've not been watching ahead because we've been wrong about things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think they're going to save this one for the finale, this reveal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And book readers, book readers are guessing it already, but I think that they're going to keep us on our toes until the finale.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because otherwise, we don't get the same pleasure of, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Surprise, astonishment, whatever that the non book readers do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: All beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, it may be somewhat less of a reveal for us, but it's still a reveal because they keep teasing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have enough doubts, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We have enough doubts, we have enough doubts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any other thoughts on book spoiler stuff before we head out of here?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, another thing I discovered just today in my continued re-through of prayer-led definition is a deeper discussion of the whole zero with law.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have a character who says, but what is humanity?
[SPEAKER_02]: to what can we point when we speak of humanity?
[SPEAKER_02]: And how can we define harm to humanity?
[SPEAKER_02]: When will a course of action do more good than harm to humanity as a whole?
[SPEAKER_02]: And how can one tell?
[SPEAKER_02]: The robot who first advanced the Zeroith Law died became impermanently inactive?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because he was forced into an action that he felt would save humanity, yet which he could not be sure would save humanity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Zero with law makes no allowance for unwitting harm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it the needle that said this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: His name wasn't a needle in the.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but it was a needle.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, it was, it was this one robot.
[SPEAKER_02]: The deal is the duration is cheddar Hut.
[SPEAKER_02]: Come in as Eto, Denver, Zell.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really interesting to watch how as a mob linked these different series, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the first two robot books, I haven't read the third robot book or the fourth robot book, and I think the fourth one is where he really links it to the Empire and Foundation series.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the first two robot books are really just procedures.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're really just like detective novels that happened to have a robot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got, I got part way through the first one and I was for seeing a really unhappy turn and I just thought, I'm gonna set this aside for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, wait, it's not too dark, honestly.
[SPEAKER_00]: There.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm sure it isn't, but I just, I just didn't want, you know, the unhappiness of a little kid because they were taken away a robot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who she loved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fair enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think we have a very exciting rest of the season for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're in a really good time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'll go watch the next episode now because I am I am feeding.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't watch it now, but I'm almost certainly going to watch it.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, enjoy Marilyn and we'll be back next week with episode eight.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, can't wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye everybody.