[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: Happy shooting the shit day.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a new episode coming at you.
[SPEAKER_03]: A very important episode for many reasons, which we'll get into.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this has been actually anticipated episode because news that goes live on social media makes it to the podcast on a different schedule.
[SPEAKER_03]: And CC has the very biggest news of all, which, again, you guys would have already known by the time you make it to this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you click on the episode titled, because it's an episode titled, but CC throw everybody with the big news is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a new job.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have moved agencies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have now with Wendy Sherman, associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to share all the news.
[SPEAKER_01]: But before we do, Carly, what day of the week is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: So today is Saturday.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we actually never record on a Saturday's work.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's made me a little bit more of a loose weekend conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's Saturday, see?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And why is it Saturday?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are we not recording on our usual Wednesdays?
[SPEAKER_01]: What happened last Wednesday?
[SPEAKER_03]: I was having tech issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: I take full responsibility.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, no, that's not what I mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just mean, okay, this is how much we love you guys for everyone listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: We always record on the Wednesday and we started recording, but then Carly had internet issues, which is fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm head and issues too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Carly was like, let's just do it on Saturday because I don't want to delay the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that sweet?
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like everyone should be like a round of applause for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I couldn't miss out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, I feel this like responsibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I say, I'm going to do something, come hell or high water.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing the thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's just a part of my personality.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I do feel golden to everybody that listens to our show and expects the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, it's coming to you very live.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a huge shout out, obviously, to Alicia and Rosanna, who edited our show, who are turning this around very quickly because of my personal tech issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we usually see, see, and I have a Google Doc where we kind of talk about everything we're going to mention in the episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know where to start.
[SPEAKER_03]: Should we just start with the big move?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know people had lots of questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: They said in lots of questions to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're really to start with the questions or give us the backstory.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm giving you the floor, CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: You get this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will start with an ironic story.
[SPEAKER_01]: On my very first day at WSA, so excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys know how first days are.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like opening up a fresh new notebook that you're very excited about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my very first day, I wake up and I've been trying to regulate my circadian rhythm and I know that it's really important to wake up and see sunlight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do not sit down, do not look at screens, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I like to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to sit down and look at screens, but I was like, I'm not going to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got a cup of coffee, put on a really big hat because I never leave the house when it's sunny without a very big hat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we should do an episode on skin care tips.
[SPEAKER_01]: Never mind, I digress.
[SPEAKER_01]: Put on a very big hat and walk to my mailbox.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just because I needed to go on a short walk in my mailbox, the short walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I see writers digest in my mailbox.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: I am actually showing a writer's digest, so if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll be able to see the cover.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, this is interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't subscribe to writer's digest.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is there a writer's digest in my inbox?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not complaining, but why?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I thought to myself, oh, the podcast was probably featured.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fun!
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been featured before.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, in the irony of all ironies at my very first day at Wendy Sherman Associates, we have a profile.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, not a profile.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes it sound more important than it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there is a list of various agents and I am included on the list on page thirty-six with the name of my former agency Isn't that fun guys?
[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that ironic?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone who picks up this magazine is gonna be like, let me look up this agent and like, oh, she's not there anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're listening and you've found me via the magazine, this is where I am now.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is very deeply diplomatic.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was so funny you're talking about skincare because I was getting ready for this episode and I
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been thinking this weekend about how I've been spending way too much time in the sun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I went to France, obviously, was in the sun.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go to the cottage in the sun.
[SPEAKER_03]: I train for triathlons.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in the sun.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was literally thinking about how season's gonna look at me feel like Carly.
[SPEAKER_03]: You were too tan.
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to wear a hat because everybody sees you as completely right.
[SPEAKER_03]: She will wear a hat to go to blocks.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I am deeply impressed by it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I need to pull it together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I feel like it's such a full pause.
[SPEAKER_03]: It should be.
[SPEAKER_03]: It has been so much time in the sun.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm giving myself a little flap on the wrist.
[SPEAKER_01]: You look good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen, looking tanned, makes you look healthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, like long-term care, Carly knows this about me and hats because we went to London together last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And literally to walk two blocks, I was like, I need a pause in the shade so I can pull off my really big hat.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very big hat, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is ridiculous and embarrassing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to put my big hat on so we can walk two blocks so my skin.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do so much stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really embarrassing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we'll do an episode some day.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we'll have to connect into publishing somehow.
[SPEAKER_01]: How the world is skincare and the world of publishing will find a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I announced my big move on social media and I announced that I was leaving my former agency to join Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was obviously so happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was excited and made a real and I
[SPEAKER_01]: It started getting a lot of DMs.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, people just asking me like, what was happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: Some specific questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I shared in a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing I shared was guys, the podcast isn't going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the podcast is and has always been unafiliated with any literary agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't have to worry about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're stuck with Carly Bianca and myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just stuck with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're still here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the second thing I did was share like a question box in my stories and say just drop your questions here and then we'll answer them when we shoot the next shooting the shit and we got eighty two questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like obviously we're not going to go through every one of them, but I did round up because a lot of the questions were like the same thing in different wording.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am going to go through all these questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly has a copy of the questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you want to ask me if you want me to ask them how do you want to do this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'll all read them to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you ready for your first question, Susie?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and I do, do you want to say one thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the six most common questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the seventh question was not most common, but it was the smartest question.
[SPEAKER_01]: The smartest, bestest, most wonderful list question of all, which we are leaving last to keep you guys wondering.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: CC is tipping over some dominoes so you guys listen to the end of the episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so the first question that CC got, or I guess one of the top questions CC got was, what happens to recent queries that were sent to you, including requested false?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love this question because it's straightforward.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everything that was sent to my former agency stays with my former agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is as it should be, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you are querying the agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course you choose an agency there, but you're querying the agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, remember, writers are free people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you guys want to query me at the new agency or if you just want to query another agent everywhere else, like you can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't take materials with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just not how it works, but
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find me, you know where I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless, of course, you've already queried another agent at WSA, in which case don't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you guys know what the rules, you guys know this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I saw just a chime in really quick.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw a query come in recently into the PSLA box that said to Carly, I queried CC and she's not there anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, you know, we're totally fine to read query it to somebody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: We do see the bulk of queries coming to the inbox.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's again, the purpose of us having just a general purpose query inbox.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if it makes you feel better to redirect to somebody else, then again, you're definitely free to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: As always, do what your heart desires when it comes to this stuff, guys, because it's your choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so the next question, and I've already seen some of this on social media, which is will your app SWL change, which is your main news group wish list.
[SPEAKER_03]: So is your taste going to change now that you moved age?
[SPEAKER_01]: My taste has not changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still wrap adult fiction and nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still want all the stories I wanted before.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to lose myself in a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to find that book that hypnotizes me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So same taste, different agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will be posting more about my wish list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something more specific, just more detailed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Both in the WSA Instagram account and my own Instagram account.
[SPEAKER_01]: So make sure to follow me there and you'll get more information.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next question is, do clients get to move with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: That was probably the second most popular question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone was like, well, how does your clients, what happens to your clients?
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people did say, like, do your clients come with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: How does it work?
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a really interesting opportunity to talk about how it works and publishing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So when an agent leaves an agency, clients are free.
[SPEAKER_01]: to do as they please plans are always free to do as they please obviously they have to follow their contracts and there's ways to do that but let's say a client wants to stay within the agency they can say that to that agency they can say hey I want to stay can you assign me to a different agent can I have a conversation with this other agent there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say a client wants to move with the agent who's leaving.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then they terminate with the agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait whatever period they have to wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be thirty days.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be two weeks, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's different periods for different places.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they get to sign at a different agency if they want to.
[SPEAKER_01]: They could also decide to leave the agency and the agent and just go elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just go to a third different option.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just remember that you are free and that is as you should be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your books, if you've sold, like if your agent has sold books,
[SPEAKER_01]: under an agency's umbrella, those books stay there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, future books that you write and all that, you can continue your career elsewhere if that's what you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that it is very common for people to come with agents because it is such a personal relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like clients typically are attached to the agent way more than they are to the agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am sure there are exceptions, but it's really not my personal situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I know my clients are attached to me and I'm attached to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know of a story and this has to be said.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit gossip, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I know of an agent who used to work for an agency that would not let him take his clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when he left the agency, started his own actually, legally contractually, I should say, he was not allowed to take his clients, but he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the agency sued him and then he counter sued.
[SPEAKER_01]: And after very lengthy and annoying legal,
[SPEAKER_01]: dispute he did get the right to take his clients and he got damages and all that but like what I'm saying is different agencies might have different policies but a good agency will never hold clients hostage right like nobody's going to do that at a serious agency like that's just not something
[SPEAKER_01]: who wants that first of all like people who do that need to start eating more chocolate chip cookies and just becoming happier in their lives in general because that's just not a nice way to be but also like it would look so bad like even if you're not gonna do it for the right reasons for the wrong reasons like it would just look so bad so anyway I'll use an example be out got right be out because the perfect example like I sold which is a moonshine manner and I sold a most puzzling murder under
[SPEAKER_01]: the PS literary umbrella.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those books stay there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bianca can choose to terminate her contract.
[SPEAKER_01]: She can choose to sign with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: She can choose to stay with PS.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is entirely her choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has chosen to terminate and eventually will sign with me once the period is over.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which of course, I'm very happy about because I love Bianca.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the three-year-old remains intact.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one thing I just wanted to chime in on was just because this is such a good learning.
[SPEAKER_03]: Learning, opportunity for everybody to kind of chat about how this works.
[SPEAKER_03]: And CC touched on this, of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I just kind of want to nail it.
[SPEAKER_03]: the books stay with the agency and so it's kind of hard to fathom obviously things becoming like bad bladder and anything like that so this isn't based on CC specific situation but it's just one of those things where like always treat people really well like even if again you're turning you're moving on because you're gonna have so much future interaction with that agency even if you're like I'm turning with that agency if they've sold books for you you will be in contact regularly about
[SPEAKER_03]: royalty statements about tax forms, about foreign rights.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just so much that's encapsured with that sale of the book that the agency is continuing to manage it in perpetuity.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, always a reminder to be nice to everybody all the time in publishing because everything comes back around.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, if the agency has sold something for you, you will be in contact so much more than you think that you will be.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because again, the proper management of the rights is dictates so.
[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, even if you have not had a book sold there, it's good advice for everyone because you might need blurbs from a client of that agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: You never know if tomorrow you might decide to go back to that agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why not nurture relationships in an industry that's based on relationships?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not a bad thing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is, it can get awkward.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to that in a later question, but it can get awkward to be like, oh, leaving and going elsewhere, but at the end of the day, like, this is a business where all adults, and if we're all professional and kind to each other, there will be no drama.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the message here.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, we'll move to our next question, which is, why do agents generally change agencies, not crying for your personal reasons by the way, but maybe like a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people were crying.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people were like, I need to know your personal reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so this is why I love this question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like especially when we discuss shooting this shit and especially when
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in panels, conferences, and when I'm just answering DMs, and when we're doing our Q&A segment for newsletter subscribers, I feel like whenever I'm explaining publishing, I have to talk about an alternate universe, because so much of publishing is weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get to say, it's just like working in tech, it's just like working as a lawyer, like working as
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, marketing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so different from other corporate jobs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it such a specific industry?
[SPEAKER_01]: This question, though, I kind of love it because it's just like any other job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Agents move agencies for the same reason why many many workers change companies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has to do with incentives.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're listening to this, I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please tell me if you're listening on social media or on sub-stack, but I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever changed jobs to whoever is listening?
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have, sometimes it might be for reasons that have nothing to do with incentives, it might be for logistical reasons like you moved countries or moved cities that you had to move jobs.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm willing to bet that most of you changed because of incentives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And incentives can be financial incentives, like more money, agents obviously get paid on commission, but much commission we make.
[SPEAKER_01]: What the terms of that commission is, these things change, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So financial incentives is a big reason why agents move agencies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another reason is just growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes not always, but sometimes to grow you need to change.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it makes sense to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You might want to be at an agency that has, I don't know, a different path for promotions or a different way of growing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a different, like different systems that might allow you to grow in different ways that might be able to, can you access to things that you don't have at a different agency?
[SPEAKER_01]: A big incentive too in the corporate world is freedom.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much freedom you're going to have versus how much freedom you had before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another really big incentive is company culture, which comes down I think to management style in the business world.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a great line.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this line.
[SPEAKER_01]: that says, culture eats strategy for breakfast.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can change strategy all you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can adopt a new strategy.
[SPEAKER_01]: If the culture isn't aligned with a strategy, culture will eat strategy for breakfast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I won't discuss my own personal reasons because I do think that that is super personal, but I will say this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I followed incentives that mattered to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not about bad or good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about figuring out
[SPEAKER_01]: What incentives are most important to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: To your mental health, to your wellbeing, to your ambition, and excitement, and just life.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a big life decision, but I love this question because I get to say it's like so many other jobs.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a great answer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm keeping my mouth shut.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is supposed to be a gossipy show, but we're not going to gossip on.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm zipping my lips over here if you're watching me on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: spatially just a big my lips.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so next question, what will you miss the most about PS literary and what are you happiest to leave behind?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the missing most is easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm gonna miss the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am very lucky to say I won't have to miss Carly because I'll still get to hang out with Carly because we have a business together.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will miss the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some brilliant, like, actually scaryly intelligent people that I got to work with, people who fight the good fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: people who have taught me so much and I when I think back to the person I was joined my former agency I get emotional like I've grown so much I've discovered so much about myself about publishing about writing about life like I couldn't even like it could feel a book which I will not because that would be very very personal book but it could feel a book that is how much material I could talk about in terms of my growth and my learning experience and
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just deeply, deeply thankful, deeply thankful for the years there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they have shaped me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a dream come true to work there for as long as I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to make something clear, no place is perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like even if I were to open up my own agency, which spoiler alert, I have no desire to, it would still not be perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: But my time there was net positive, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I had so many good things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is an easy question to answer the first part, which is I will miss the people the most.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to name names, but there are people that I used to get to be on the phone with and ask questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their answers were always so scarily smart.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just, yeah, it was a really great place to work for as long as I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm very thankful.
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I happiest to leave behind?
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a hard one to answer because like I said, it was so positive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I want to answer the question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am excited to leave behind the fact that we don't have an in-person office.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be clear about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is twenty twenty five.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody needs an office.
[SPEAKER_01]: everyone works remote okay editors work remote editors who have offices in big buildings they still work from home most of the time at least many of them do it is twenty twenty five I am not suggesting it's a necessity I am saying I'm excited to have an office in the city I'm excited to I don't know grab coffee with an editor and then be able to head to the flat iron district and
[SPEAKER_01]: be inside my agency's office like I have said this actually before I said hey I love working here back when I was at PS but I missed the fact that we're never all together in the same place so yeah that's something that I will get to have occasionally it's not something that will go in all the time or anything like that but you have the option of going in and I like that so it works well for me yeah I mean I think that the work from home
[SPEAKER_03]: Return to office conversation is super interesting and like waking up steam again as people are trying to figure out what the right thing to or you know right obviously is in quotes because every it's so personal right for everybody's lies has changed so much since we started this like work from home culture and yeah, it's going to be really changing the next couple of years how that shakes out with our certain personalities where they just really thrive and being a more interactive environments and some people who are very happy to just like you know do their silo thing and work completely remotely so
[SPEAKER_03]: That's interesting and I think that topic's going to come up on our show.
[SPEAKER_03]: in other ways for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And number six, we're up to number six here.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are you most excited about your new agency?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like the hardest question because I'm so excited about many things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think working with Wendy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Wendy and I met in Kawai, November, twenty twenty four.
[SPEAKER_01]: Heated off right away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we grabbed a drink at the Japanese bar at the hotel and we just
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the conversation just flowed.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's great energy and I'm an energy person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the reason why I like her don't like someone or I want to spend time or don't want to spend time with someone is so energy-based.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we love this in books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she knows everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just one of those
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's such a known and respected figure in publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have received so many emails since I've announced a movie to be like, oh my gosh, you get to work with Wendy, you're so lucky and I agree I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the reason why I'm so excited in addition to like her being this person that I want to hang out with and spend time with is publishing is a business of soft power and it's hard to explain.
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't going back to publishing being weird and unlike other
[SPEAKER_01]: industries.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sales, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's selling emotions and it's corporate, but it's almost like a exclusive club and it's corporatness, like it is a business of soft power.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wendy wields that power in a very impressive way and I'm excited to be a part of that because I love power.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys know me, you guys know I love power.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I, I will say that is a number one reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: A close second is working with with the other agents who who work there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Cherice, Cali and Laura, I'm really excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I the biggest compliment I can give someone and people don't think this is a compliment, but it is is I feel safe with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is the highest compliment I can pay to a person because it takes me a long time to feel safe around someone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am I'm not a trusting person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am
[SPEAKER_01]: I can be very playful and warm and I appear extroverted so people get this wrong about me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am deeply, deeply interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I skeptical, I'm reserved when it comes to my deep emotions and I already feel like I belong in that group.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've had enough chats with them and I've interacted with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel comfortable like I feel comfortable being there and I feel lucky to be there and I don't know I like I said I'm an energy person so this is very much an energy match cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that yeah Laura was a fantastic editor for a long time and now she's a fantastic agent on
[SPEAKER_03]: Laura mostly does nonfiction, but yeah, she's incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: So look up all of Laura's books as long as, as well as everybody else's books.
[SPEAKER_03]: Laura has really great taste.
[SPEAKER_03]: Laura Maser on the nonfiction side over at Wendy Sherman.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, don't, don't, don't, we're up to number seven.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is when that CCT is.
[SPEAKER_03]: These two guys, and since we're recording on the weekend, I haven't read these questions in a couple days.
[SPEAKER_03]: So here we go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Number seven, which is, does this mean we can officially query you both?
[SPEAKER_03]: Was that a very popular question?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, only two people ask the horizon question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like could page ask this question was a first person to ask and another human did to forgot their name.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sorry, other human.
[SPEAKER_01]: Guys, guys, look alive guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: This should have been the first question everyone asked as it stands.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, again podcast, separate from agency, but like we are agents and you get to query agents if you so choose.
[SPEAKER_01]: As it stands, you guys up until now, you guys had to choose.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had to be like, I can either query garlic or CC and now you don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we get to put on shark hats.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, can I, can, do you know how to sing a shark song?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is a shark song?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know shark songs.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need musical.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the start of the little baby shark.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay, we can sing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we can sing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh God!
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but seriously, this is the first question everyone should be asking, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you guys, we're not.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys were all like, tell me the gossip, what's going on, what made you do this, what about your clients?
[SPEAKER_01]: Great question, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're missing the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: The point is now we have up the stakes, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: This podcast has done what we expect querying writers to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have given you a plot twist and we have up the stakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and you can sing the short song now for the rest of your lives in your head.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are welcome.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I won't do that in every episode of apologies.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, and now we're going to throw to our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, and we are now back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we have another half of the show to go here.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a couple of things we wanted to talk about today.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I wrote on my list is we've talked about this like vaguely on the books with hooks, segment, and various capacities.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in our deep dives, we've talked about this whenever I get some opportunities to be more long-winded.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that
[SPEAKER_03]: comes up from a time to time and again I could speak about it as vaguely as possible on the show is what publishers try to get away with when writers don't have agents this as you can imagine as an agent boils my blood like nothing else because I just it's just one of those things where I just know
[SPEAKER_03]: that if somebody had an agent, they wouldn't have been treated differently.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so many ways, whether it's the way that their acquisition was handled, the way that their contract was handled, the way that the contract was drafted, the way that they're publishing experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just so many things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to talk vaguely about an experience, you know, I'll mash up a couple experiences in this regard.
[SPEAKER_03]: But CC, how do you feel though, this doesn't boil your blood as much as it boils my blood?
[SPEAKER_01]: very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember the day I realized the degree to which this matters, it can be, it can be scary to do this without an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I know someone's listening and going, well, you guys are biased.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we are.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are also right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be biased and right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be both at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those situations.
[SPEAKER_01]: An agent is an advocate and an agent knows
[SPEAKER_01]: how this industry works.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And bad things could happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious to hear the mashup composite character situation we're gonna hear about now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I will composite the situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Usually, and I guess I should say usually, but the thing that's coming to mind for me is the kind of the way that the option clause and non-compete clause interact with each other can really get authors into a pickle.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the option clause is the kind of first write-in refusal in your contract and your book deal, which is
[SPEAKER_03]: You give the kind of exclusive opportunity for your existing publisher to consider your next work, which you know sounds relatively fair and theory.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, they took a chance on me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, you know, I'll let them have the, you know, the next look.
[SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't mean that you have to sign with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there's so many sneaky things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've seen things where the option clause includes, they have to acquire the book on the exact same terms, like financially and otherwise, that they paid on that first book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's say your first book was huge, your child bestseller.
[SPEAKER_03]: So no, these copies.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they bought it for a more modest sum, that they could still be that modest sum on your next advance.
[SPEAKER_03]: And anyway, just like, that's just diabolical to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Seeing things like, I'm just not narrowing down.
[SPEAKER_03]: of the clause, so say, you know, you are somebody that works in the romance genre, but the option clause wasn't near down to just your next romance.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like anything you'll ever write, but like again, what if you wanted to do a non-fiction book or a children's book or something in another category, which that publisher isn't a specialist in, why would you want to get them
[SPEAKER_03]: the first right and refusal on that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like narrowing it down, timelines to consider.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a big one on the option clause where you want your publisher to consider it a timely manner.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't want to give it to them and then they can sit on it for a year while making a decision.
[SPEAKER_03]: So some publishers will be kind of sneaky and say, like, we're not going to consider your option.
[SPEAKER_03]: meaning like you can't kind of get back to work and have a new deal and move forward to your career until your last book has like come out or even longer than that and then they they delay how long they can consider it and then all of a sudden your books been out and you have no idea whether your publisher's going to give you another deal contractually all of that stuff is just like yeah again just always so mind-boggling and then the non-compete clause is the window in which
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can't really have anything going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is very realistic in business, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're going to put out a product, you don't want somebody to then go out and then put another book out within two weeks of the existing book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because again, like, how are consumers going to know what to buy and things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there could be sneaky things like a non-compete for an exorbitantly amount of time.
[SPEAKER_03]: a year plus eighteen months something really long or again not carving out fiction versus thought fiction or self-published title.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's just, anyway, there's just so many sneaky things and that's what's got me all rolled up is like, and especially the way these two things interact and how we can just put the breaks on an author's career so fast because all of a sudden they're not able to submit their option material or
[SPEAKER_03]: They're tied to these terms with this publisher that doesn't really have their best interest in her and it has the publishers best interest and they're not able to like escalate their career because they just get stuck anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was what was on my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's for sure very frustrating and also
[SPEAKER_01]: there are elements that come into play where you make less money because publishers are not offering the same royalties necessarily to someone without an agent because they think they can get away with more at the end of the day it's a business.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are also things like the advance like I have seen not just what the deals I've negotiated myself but deals my colleagues have negotiated like I have seen the difference an agent can make in terms of like no, no, no, not this amount of money, this other amount of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: in terms of write scraps, you know, and in theory, a beginner author hears, they bought world rights.
[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that great?
[SPEAKER_01]: They want my book in the whole world.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it can be terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the publishers paying you the same amount of money for more territories.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you keep those rights and, you know, your agency's foreign rights teams can sell those rights, often you'll make a lot more money.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying that is necessarily the best situation, because every deal is a different situation you have to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes world can be very lucrative, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like that's up to the agent.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, usually to say like, let's put the gas pedal on here because if you think you can pay a lot of money for this, and watch it in the world, that's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if we're talking like a low five figures, a low four figures for a world, like that's a big question mark about whether that would be in your best interest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of your agent's job is to advise you there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And to be like, hey, okay, world is great in this situation, but they have to pay more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or world is great, and they're paying adequate amount of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have seen this happen so many times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of one case, one specific case, where I really wanted to work with this author.
[SPEAKER_01]: She works in on fiction, and her book would be so great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can picture her book.
[SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't come out yet, but I can picture it in my head just based on her content.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such an amazing book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I offered rap, she had other offers, and she called me and she said, if I were to sign with an agent, I would sign with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't want to sign with any agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think I need one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm, you know, two.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's really well known.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has connections.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people think that the unagents job is merely that of a matchmaker.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a huge part of our jobs, a part that I'm very proud of.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's just a tiny, tiny piece of what we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just connecting you with a publisher.
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, this person decided to go ahead with out an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: They asked me to
[SPEAKER_01]: They asked, would you consider reviewing the contract as a former attorney, as someone who has experienced some contracts?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, no, I said, if you want my brain, like, yeah, if you make client, and you don't want to be my client, and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, fast forward to this person sold their book.
[SPEAKER_01]: The book was announced, and then they reached out to me on social media to be like, I realized that I signed something I shouldn't have signed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she realized this after she had already signed the contract, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she spoke with a friend, this friend does have an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to get into what it is, but there is something in her contract that's going to make her very, very difficult from an expert point of view.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are no escalators in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she's so much, like, hardly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you had, like, you're just so much that we could have done.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, a good age, you could have been so frustrated.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know and it's like we spend our careers building these like these abilities like we are experts in this field.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what we do and so frustrating again everybody's allowed to make their own choice.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've even seen somebody hire a lawyer because we're always like if you
[SPEAKER_03]: If you don't want an agent, obviously hire an lawyer, but if somebody doesn't hire the right lawyer who knows the world of publishing, they can also get themselves into a pickle, because I've seen lawyers do things in contracts, which I've reviewed later, and I'm like, I wouldn't have expected that from a lawyer who would have expertise in the field like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: All lawyers are created equal.
[SPEAKER_03]: All agents are created equal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, again, no, but it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what you said, people should do whatever they want, happy for authors to do whatever they want.
[SPEAKER_01]: And listen, I'm sure they're unagented authors out there who are doing just fine and don't want one cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see the horror stories because no one reaches out to us and says, I have a great story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just tell you what great story for no reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's also true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, again, this is one of the situations where you can be biased and right.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are biased and right.
[SPEAKER_03]: This episode is just all the things we think were right about it I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is our show guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is our show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a question for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a question for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a question about this is kind of gossip.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I want to pick your brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I if there are any other agents who listen to this because I know a lot of publishing professionals have told me they listen to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel like does has this ever happened to you and if it has how do you feel when you when you get a query from a writer like random writer you don't know this person random query saying
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Carly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So-and-so referred me to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So-and-so is an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: So-and-so is an agent who works in the same space that you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: They wrap the same kinds of books that you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: How does that make you feel?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a really good question, actually.
[SPEAKER_03]: So not great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that what you're gonna say?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if somebody queries me and says, oh, so-and-so agent read this and liked it, but they can't work on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, well, there's probably a reason so-and-so agent who is my peer, my contemporary, who I probably know,
[SPEAKER_03]: and some capacity, or again, this is such a relational business where I know somebody who knows them.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they didn't want to work on this, it's not a good thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I've seen examples of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've seen queries where somebody says, like, I got this quote from an agent and then they'll quote the rejection in the query as if that's an endorsement.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, man, dude, that's from a rejection letter.
[SPEAKER_03]: don't like say that rejection letter back to me about why you think it's good because it could be the part of their rejection letter that's like I'm really connected with did you do do you know and that's yeah and I as an agent I'm like that's a rejection letter you just go to your rejection letter back to me so yeah I would say that's a no go yeah have you I guess I'm curious but like what's for this on was there something that this isn't happening to me okay there's an agent we're not naming names this is a very successful agent okay I've met her she's great she's very
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever really fold this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Does she ever really fold this, do you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: She's in growth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have theories about what she's doing this and we'll get to the theories, but she has a great age and I want to make that clear because if this were coming also from a bad age and it would also be different.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a great age in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have gotten at this point ten different query letters from people who said, I spoke to this person and this person has referred me to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I have many theories about what's happening here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got a couple theories.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's where I'm with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: One theory.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this person is supposedly anyway in growth mode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why they wouldn't be taking on your clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another theory is they met me and thought, because I'm in major growth mode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really want more clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're just like, hey, this is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't love it, but maybe CC will love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They might be trying to be nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another theory is they might be doing freelance work that I don't know about.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they can't sign the people they're doing freelance work with.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of theories.
[SPEAKER_01]: My brain is nothing but a theory factor.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a different theory.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but I was going to say, I really don't like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that I don't like that she's doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like I want to query letters that starts with so and so referred me to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That does not make me, that does not increase the chances of me liking the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I want to be honest, I would never hold it against a writer because it is not the writer's fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: The writer didn't nothing wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would read the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would review the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would still scroll down and read the pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would not let that of hurt a writer's chances at all because I just wouldn't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would override the part of my brain that resists.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think that's a smart move.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if sometimes writers ask me, hey, you don't want my story, but can you refer me to someone else?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, you don't want that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want me to say unless it's a genre I don't rep, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't read Kiddlet.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I refer you to a Kiddlet agent, then it's totally different.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just don't want to see.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the only time I'll get into my theories, I have two theories.
[SPEAKER_03]: The only time I would think this would be okay is if that agent says, hey, Carly, you know, I'm setting this person your way for XYZ.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like the referral comes from the agent, not the author.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because to me, that's not really a true referral.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's not fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it still make you wonder why?
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys have, I did it.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I got your theories.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have two theories.
[SPEAKER_03]: One theory is this from a conference.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this person was, it was like face to face at a conference and your name or like, I don't know, this person had a list of like other agents because that's a really nice thing to do at a conference face, again, we talked about conferences before actually some, we're going to talk about that on the next shooting.
[SPEAKER_03]: This should actually how we actually feel right at conferences.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I have a feeling like, is that writer's conference is when people pitch us, then it's like, oh, it's not for me, but it could be for someone.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a way to get out of a requesting it in a way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have a theory.
[SPEAKER_03]: One theory is it was a writer's conference.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why you got ten because it was out of writer's conference.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this person maybe had a list of other agents and was like, try a song.
[SPEAKER_03]: So try a song.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one theory.
[SPEAKER_03]: Second theory is they, again, I'm completely speculating.
[SPEAKER_03]: So nobody holds this against me.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're going up a turn to do leave or parental leave.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so they can't take on clients potentially because they're like, I'm going up because what I would on maternity leave when I found out it was pregnant, I just stopped signing clients because I just began to watch it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I just had it, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: All the reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those are my two theories.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a reddish conference or they are going up rental leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been happening for months.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't all the months and this person was going on leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those are good theories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are good solid theories because that could be the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've spoken to another agent about this and they were like, I don't like it when that happens because this other agent also has this has happened with to them like they've had emails where, oh, this other agent referred me in technical.
[SPEAKER_01]: If a person doesn't think it was good, why am I going to think it's good?
[SPEAKER_01]: Riders, if you're listening, like polishing professionals, if you're listening, I want to note this happens to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Riders, if you're listening, I would not put that in a query letter unless it's a different genre situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't rep Kiddlet.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I tell you, you should look up so and so, that is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if I get that, I don't want the Kiddlet agents.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm not even like, in my opinion, that's not even a good referral either.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have, like, I will say this, and in fairness, it was different because I contacted the agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I remember reading something that was really good, really, really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kidlet and perfect for my friend Linda Kamacho.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, this was built for Linda.
[SPEAKER_01]: I contacted Linda.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would do the work to be like, there is a reason this isn't for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another reason this is a red flag or yellow flag.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how we flagging this.
[SPEAKER_03]: We flagging this yellow or red.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think yellow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think yellow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, another reason this is a yellow to red in my opinion is for if it was that good.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is an orange flag.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a Taylor Swift flag.
[SPEAKER_03]: Orange flag.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another reason this is flag worthy is because if it was that good, why would they want to keep it within the agency?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because a lot of us work at mid-sized to larger agencies.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're a solo printer and so you have your own shingle and it's your name.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: You only work on nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: Somebody clears you with fiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have an agent fiction friend.
[SPEAKER_03]: off they go.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you were going to large demand size agency, super suspicious.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's like, we're happy because then you're going to say, well, why, if it was that good, why would you pass it on to a colleague?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Took the words out of my frame because that's something I mentioned too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Big agency guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is from I'm going to tell you soon we stop recording, but big agency, like huge, huge agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you should put this in your fridge.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're doing a good thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they think they're doing a good thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_03]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're all telling them maybe now.
[SPEAKER_03]: They can listen to this and not do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but probably we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And and then listen, that's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, like I said, I'm not going to hold it against any right because that would be.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's just not getting the writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's getting the writer's hopes up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess, yeah, writers who are interested.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: just know it's not if you think this is maybe like an endorsement or like yeah it's a referral in my opinion it is actually not a referral because it's not coming from the source of of which I want the referral to filter to me that's why yeah yeah we're about to talking about how weird publishing is publishing is weird we should have just called this segment publishing is weird like shoot in the shit are publishing is weird
[SPEAKER_03]: that'll be our placeholder.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so we have, we're going to just do one link today.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we only have time for one link.
[SPEAKER_03]: So CC, you put this link in our chat, which is kind of about like sales and best seller sales and things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So really interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: You want to walk us through the the link you chose to talk about tonight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is, and we will, I will ask our team to add the link if possible in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is from a sub stack by Helen Lewis, the blue stalking, three, seventy nine, the economics of writing a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really loved August first if you're looking for this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, published August first.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really enjoyed reading this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, she goes through a few things.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just published a book and she is talking about how have friend of hers also published a book and diligently followed the publishers advice about generating buzz on social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: But and did everything like studied how to record videos and vertical videos versus horizontal videos and like whatever the ratio is like all the thing all the big big social media work and then this friend I'm trying to look up her name Caroline Krampton wrote an essay called I'm done with social media and which she basically says look I'm just doing busy work here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not making any difference It's not actually generating buzz.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just stressing me out and taking my time and occupying my precious precious brain space
[SPEAKER_01]: I am obviously paraphrasing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and Helen was talking about how she agrees with this because she has also just published a nonfiction book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fragmented media landscape makes it really hard to have a book be discovered.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Once upon a time, media was controlled by a few big companies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you had a review in, I don't know, the New Yorker or Time magazine or New York Times or whatever it is, that review could sell books.
[SPEAKER_01]: And nowadays it's not like that anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: People are looking to social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they're looking to diffuse and disperse places.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so selling a book is harder than ever because it's not like you put this material in one place, you reach a large audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually more like you have to put it in multiple multiple places to hopefully reach multiple audiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's talking about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's also talking about how this is true across the entertainment industry where the business model seems to be spray and prey.
[SPEAKER_01]: like you just try everything and pray that something will go viral.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is also saying like there is appetite for my content because I do other things again she writes nonfiction so she's an expert and she's like well I'm wondering whether things need to be books and that's actually a super interesting conversation too but
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, the most interesting part of this though, to me was a footnote, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: A footnote that reads, you know, I'll read this to you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I highly recommend checking out this article.
[SPEAKER_01]: To give you a rough benchmark of sales figures, in the period between January, twenty twenty three and September, twenty twenty four.
[SPEAKER_01]: An industry source tells me that two hundred and fifty is best selling nonfiction book in the UK sold thirty thousand copies.
[SPEAKER_01]: The one thousandth
[SPEAKER_01]: did eleven thousand sales.
[SPEAKER_01]: This confirms my belief that most publishing is basically the same a model as venture capitalism.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make a few bets and the outlier success will hopefully pay for all the rest.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you guys watch Shark Tank, you know what it's all about.
[SPEAKER_01]: The sharks, they typically invest money in multiple businesses, most of them do not make any money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some make decent amount of money, but nothing that they couldn't get in a much better investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing that they couldn't get in a different investment that would be better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there is occasionally the few bets they make that pays for.
[SPEAKER_03]: everything else venture count model right yeah and that to me is so scary because I don't think writers realize this and we have to talk about that's what I'm just gonna say like are you actually surprised about this like no I don't know I guess I'm cynical where I'm like I think I thought we all I thought we all knew it was a blockbuster model I thought we all knew that
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not surprised by the model.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm surprised people don't know about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if you're going to start, like if you're going trying to break into an industry, you need to know not just what your odds are, but what the model is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's something people realize.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that people realize it's like, oh, it's really hard to break out and you see numbers like only whatever percent of books sell more than ten thousand copies or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: But do you understand that it's also a model where they are making bets on a lot of people and whatever breaks out is going to pay for the rest meaning even if you sell a book and they pay you real money.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't need to recoup that money necessarily with your book sales.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're happy to take that loss and then just make up for it in a different model like that needs to be talked about because Yeah, I don't think I mean, I could be wrong in a part of the editor and departmental right and then publisher why like everybody's in their own buckets and their own ways that they're kind of connected vertically But I mean, I guess all this to say so last week which most of you guys call me on socials I did six stats that every writer should know about publishing and talked about a bunch of this stuff which is like
[SPEAKER_03]: It is such a small percentage of authors that quote unquote make it by financial standards, by brand standards, by market standards.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a very small percentage and again, it's up to you whether you look at that as glass half full glass half empty.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like is this opportunity?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because that's what venture capitalism is, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like we are going to make bets and those bets will pay off.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what capitalism is, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: These publishers operate under capitalism.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they need some of these to break out.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like Broadway plays, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like not everyone's going to be a hit.
[SPEAKER_03]: right some of them are going to go on and you know live on for for decades of decades and some of them will have a very limited run and people move on.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it is hard to understand and I think what's really hard is that authors get really excited about sometimes these smaller book deals to think like somebody wants my book and they're just so grateful that somebody wants their book and then you think like somebody else like yesterday tomorrow
[SPEAKER_03]: like this week got a deal X times what you just got and that is going to be the one that's going to be the lead title or the one that's going to get invested in more and so this isn't to make everybody upset this this is also to remind everybody that that is something to work towards right so you can accept that smaller deal that is okay but again eventually you want to hopefully work towards being that top ten percent that is going to generate the equity
[SPEAKER_03]: and the resources and the revenue that is going to kind of create this umbrella, that sprinkles, you know, all of these benefits across all of these different titles.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's such a long game.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, I'll just continue on my rant, which is like, these books are available for lifetime, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: This is lifetime sales.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there is always opportunity for something to break out later, for something to kind of pick up steam in a different way, a TV film adaptation,
[SPEAKER_03]: Translation sales.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's just so many things to bring this back to Taylor Taylor Allison Swift.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just watching her on her YouTube channel that her YouTube podcast episode that she did when she talked about why she wanted to own her masters and how that was so important to her and she said it was owned by a private equity company and she didn't want
[SPEAKER_03]: those rights to be left to so-and-so's grandchild, like as a right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we just have to always have to remember, all of this is a right.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is all rights sales.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we have to think about the short term, the medium term, the long term, and how these are all in conversation with each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think this lives back to what we just said about agents and why authors need agents, because we can help you figure out how to navigate these things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully explain to authors the Blockbuster model, the private equity model, however you or guess the venture capitalism is how she framed it.
[SPEAKER_03]: The venture capital model, the Blockbuster model, because this is what TV studios do.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what Broadway does.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what publishing does.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is just what so many different businesses do.
[SPEAKER_03]: To figure out what is going to move the needle.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, it's such a noisy media landscape right now that we just never know what is actually going to happen and what's going to break through.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am an optimist, as we all know, I have my optimist hat on always, which is I have been worked on titles that are in that top ten percent, that top five percent, that top one percent.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it teaches you so much about how the model works and who it services and kind of bringing CC's.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know about power earlier, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like in how you can generate power through
[SPEAKER_03]: The revenue and being in that top percent percent, five percent, three percent, one percent, and how that power shift happens.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you take away one thing from everything we're saying, I hope you take away the fact that you are an entrepreneur seeking an investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: You listener, assuming you're a writer, you're an entrepreneur seeking financial investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: and put that hat on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't let the artist hat beyond while you're seeking an investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please keep the artist hat.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll need it to produce your beautiful works, but you are an entrepreneur seeking an investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: The mindset has to be, it has to be that of someone who's asking people for money.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I give you a chocolate chip cookie and I say, here taste this cookie, you're going to be like, yeah, yummy cookie.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I tell you, hey, do you want to invest real money in me selling these cookies?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we'll open up a bakery, all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will taste that cookie with a different perspective in mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you will not just say, yeah, yummy cookie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, any cookie, the bar becomes higher that the rules change the game's different.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are an artist, yes, you're a creator, yes, but you are also at this stage.
[SPEAKER_01]: at the querying stage, submission stage, production stage on entrepreneur seeking investments.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the biggest gatekeepers in all of publishing are not agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not editors.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are not publicists.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're readers.
[SPEAKER_01]: The biggest gatekeepers are readers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's everyone listening to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope I hope that's everyone listening to our show.
[SPEAKER_03]: On that note, we are out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for everybody for hanging out with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshermen.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.