[UNKNOWN]: Oh, no!
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello everybody and welcome back to the Shirley, you can't be serious podcasts, ladies and gentlemen, Shirley fans, boys and girls of all ages.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you ever thought there's no chance that any podcast in its right mind would cover the movie, Batman and Robin, what the day, freezes over.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am here with my co-host and best friend Jason Colvin and we have our special guest back again for another what the heck happened edition of the surely you can't be serious podcast you have Mr. Jeff Johnson from a film by Jeff how you doing man
[SPEAKER_02]: Guys, I'm doing great.
[SPEAKER_04]: You once told me that being part of a team means trusting your partners and sometimes counting on someone else.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's the only way to win.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm asking you, friends, brothers, partners.
[SPEAKER_04]: Will you trust me?
[SPEAKER_04]: Find out what the heck happened here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man, there are so many eye roll lines in this movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't wait to dive into a van.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've got Jeff Johnson here from the a film by podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jeff, tell us about your podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, Jason, over on a film by, we love to talk about our favorite directors, Hollywood's biggest directors, the best directors, but we focus on the underrated hits rather than their blockbusters.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also have a lot of fun, little mini series, which both of you, I'm happy to say, have been a part of our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you like discovering work that maybe your favorite director has done that you need to know about, that's, that's, that's what we do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, before we get into this, this is actually our fourth, what the heck happened matchup that the three of us have done.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the first one we even had Brad on with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe back in season two, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's doing that on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Several years ago, that one we did just for versus Superman for, which I think laid the groundwork that Batman and Robin should have learned from.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: We also did last action hero versus alien three, what the heck happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then last season we did Beverly Hills cup three versus just three D, what the heck happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so today we are comparing Batman and Robin, nineteen ninety seven to Superman returns two thousand and six.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today's episode will be focused strictly on Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Next episode, Jeff will be back.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will do Superman returns.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll not only say what the heck happened and how did these films go awry as they did, but we'll also tell you, picking between the two of them, which one is our pick.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we've got to watch it again, which one are we picking?
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we go too much further though, I do have to just pull this out here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, see these fantastic things right here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Got our mad magazine, little books that Jason and I read all the time when we were kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: Want to thank Jeff Mazuka of the thirty something movie podcast for sending those to us among a whole box full of other ones, just like it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interestingly, because that text thread was going on on Thursday or Friday of last week, I texted you and Jeff and I said, hey guys, I forgot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been conflicted.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't afford this afternoon and Jeff Mizzook went.
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I supposed to record with you guys?
[SPEAKER_02]: This meant for me, and I'm like, oh, wrong Jeff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but yes, Jeff, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Truly appreciate you listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sin and us those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were awesome as always.
[SPEAKER_02]: And guys, be sure and go check him out on the thirty something movie podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Jeff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great job.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So guys, this is the fourth Batman movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have Batman, eighty nine, which I dare say made a huge impact on all of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're a man dressed up as a bat.
[SPEAKER_01]: gets all of my presents.
[SPEAKER_01]: This town needs an edema.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Batman returns that came out in ninety two.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have Batman forever, which marked a shift in this franchise to a new Batman and a new director.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's when we lost Michael Keaton and we lost Tim Burton.
[SPEAKER_03]: We added Val Kilmer for one movie and Joel Schumacher.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you guys know this or not, but Val Kilmer is difficult to work with apparently.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, we have discussed how Val might be on occasion difficult to work with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now on this one, he actually was supposed to be in Batman and Robin, like they had they had the plan that he would be back as Bruce Wayne slash Batman, but he was making he'd already agreed to make the saint.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's kind of an interesting history because Batman forever was they didn't really think there's going to be anything that special like it was Batman Returns had been a disappointment Tim Burton had taken the character darker and when they are looking at doing the third
[SPEAKER_02]: And the franchise, they have to go out and kind of hustle to get investments and sponsorships and all these other things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Batman forever ends up raking the records for its opening weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they're like, oh, OK, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they don't have to go out for Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody now wants to be a part of it, including all the toy companies, which today we're going to learn a new word called
[SPEAKER_02]: Boy at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Toy edict.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boy at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boy at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that heard that word before I started researching this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: But all that to say, they are going to come back and make this Batman and Robin, but Val Camer's people don't tell them until literally the eleventh hour.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, hey guys, Val can't do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's already making another movie called The Saints.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they had to scramble and they scrambled and ended up on George Clooney.
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, the big one was getting Batman and Robin, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I call all my friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now remember, this is famously one of the worst films ever made, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Famously.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody was like, this is literally the worst film ever made.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when I got the part, I'm calling my friends going, yeah, I could be the next Batman movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, what do you play?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, Batman and...
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he didn't really realize you're on the Titanic.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not a bad result.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I think it's a good result.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's the hottest guy in town with E.R.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, he was on everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he's probably in the people's sexiest people alive.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's obviously very, I mean, E.R.
[SPEAKER_02]: was at its pinnacle at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody's talking about him.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got, you're bringing back Chris O'Donnell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can't believe we're fighting over a bad guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bad, yes, guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: you bring an in Arnold Schwarzenegger who is an absolute icon at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, everything says, hey, we just had a success.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got the same director, same writer, huge stars, all the top of their game.
[SPEAKER_03]: What the heck happened?
[SPEAKER_03]: Indeed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jeff, let's go back one movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell us your impression of Batman forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, I thought it was fantastic.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I was a little upset that we were going to go in a different direction, but that's going to happen with Hollywood.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to have to recast guys here and there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And for what it's worth, I think Joel Schumacher did a fantastic job with Batman forever.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, look at his track record.
[SPEAKER_04]: He admittedly talks about how he enjoys making darker films.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when you look at some of the movies that he had made up until this point, you know, whether it's the lost boys or falling down or flat liners, you know, he's a
[SPEAKER_04]: He's a proven winner.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I thought the, I feel like the franchise was in great hands, honestly.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I've always been a big valcomer fan.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, if Keaton's got to move on, call the Iceman.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Iceman, come with.
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you think about that forever?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I have not seen it since I saw it in the theater and what would that have been?
[SPEAKER_02]: Ninety-five, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do remember enjoying it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had expectations for Jim Carrey that weren't met.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I expected him to be not
[SPEAKER_02]: white as over the top as he was, despite the fact that he was coming off of Ace Ventura at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this was his first really, you know, large, large budget movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I kind of liked the retelling of the the origin story, you know, and I was really excited about the introduction of Robin, because before Batman eighty nine, I grew up, I watched the Adam West
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Nick at night stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I watched Adam West and Bird Ward together as Batman and Robin and I was kind of surprised on the first movie that there was no Robin and then the second movie again, no Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, man, what are they going to bring Robin and then they brought Robin in and it had had fun with the names of Nightwing and
[SPEAKER_02]: different styles.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, then you've got in that sixty-six TV show, but I was excited to see Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: I liked the new origin story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought Val Kilmer had a great performance because he gave you kind of the Bruce Wayne that's torn and depressed and dealing with a lot of demons.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I like Batman forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was afraid that I was going to be the only one standing up here defending Batman forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought maybe I was hypnotized by seal like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That song was the song of the summer, kiss from a rose.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, you know, I just really enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I trust, like you said, Joel Schumacher.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Jeff you said this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Joel Schumacher was a proven winner.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to see animals fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd like flat liners.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd like the lost boys a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, falling down is a good movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: A time to kill.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought was good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought this is in good hands.
[SPEAKER_03]: Warner Brothers made a right call.
[SPEAKER_03]: They've got a guy who knows how to do things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, his reputation up to this point was that he was an incredible caster.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So look at St.
[SPEAKER_03]: Emma's fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got Emilio Estevez, you've got Andy McDowell, you've got Demi Moore, you've got Roblo, you've got Judd Nelson, you've got Alishidi, I mean, stellar young cast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look at the lost boys, you've got Corey Hayme, you've got Jason Patrick, you've got Jamie Gertz, you've got Kiever Solin, you know, you're just crushing it, cast-wise, and then flat liners, it's Julia Roberts and it's Billy Baldwin.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oliver, Oliver Platt, Peter Platt, and Kievers Nolan.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so his strength was casting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think when you look at Batman and Robin, I think you've got the pieces to make a pretty good movie with Clooney and O'Donnell and Schwarzenegger and Uma Thurman and Alicia Silverstone, who was hottest a firecracker from the Erasmus videos.
[SPEAKER_02]: And from what was it, Poison Ivy?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was that the name of that movie?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the crush.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, crush.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And from the crush.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was a member of a movie for me at like fifteen years older.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that really, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you throw in Viveka A-Fox.
[SPEAKER_03]: You toss in Elmick-Pherson.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got Michael Guff from the first movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got Pat Hingel who played Commissioner Gordon.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you've got the building blocks for a decent movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: So all you have to do is pick up the ball and run with it and Jeff, what happened?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, if you want to, if you want to cut right to the chase, I'll tell you exactly what happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell me, studio executives happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's, that's what killed this movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, George Clooney had, there's a running joke in Hollywood that if you tell George Clooney that you paid for a movie ticket for Batman Robin, he will refund you.
[SPEAKER_04]: He'll give you money back.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, he, he always jokes it out how he killed the franchise.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, a lot of people went after a Kiva Goldsmith, you know, for the writing.
[SPEAKER_04]: That you're talking about an Academy award winning writer right there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wasn't his fault, you know, and I waited man.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got to keep a ghost myth a little bit on the hook for this one.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk about that here in a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, but I do agree with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: The studio meddled immensely in this movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've just talked about how great Joel Schumacher was, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: He is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Could be when you got into directing a movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the bottom line is the studio wanted a toy commercial.
[SPEAKER_04]: Batman forever was, it's supposed to be this massive hit that it was.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when it is, he comes knocking back and says, hey, I got a great idea.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's let's go dark now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's get a little bit darker.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to I want to adapt Frank Miller and they said no.
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_04]: We want this to be as kid-friendly as possible.
[SPEAKER_04]: And for that reason, we need more gadgets.
[SPEAKER_04]: We need more vehicles.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's got to be toy-edic, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: D-D introduced the phrase to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whether a movie is toy-edic or not, and how many toys you can get out of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that is what the studio wanted.
[SPEAKER_04]: They put the back cuffs on Schumacher, and he delivered what he was able to deliver.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's how I look at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was really impressed because I didn't realize that Joel Schumacher actually was pretty familiar with the comic books and his vision for his second Batman movie was Batman Your One.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what he was looking towards, which is a
[SPEAKER_02]: Much, I mean, it's a very dark.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the Frank Miller series that they did and what was kind of the inspiration ultimately for what we got when we watched the Batman.
[SPEAKER_02]: What was that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Twenty two.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, twenty two by the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you guys are interested, Jason and I covered
[SPEAKER_02]: Batman, eighty-nine versus Dark Knight, the two best in the whole stream of movies that we have, Batman movies that we have.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I follow up and went and watched the Batman, I think we got his preview of that, didn't we?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and we love all of those movies, but the key I think in all of them is you have to have real and you have to have tortured.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't have real and tortured, you're going the wrong way with these guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, before we get into what doesn't work, let's start with what works.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to leave us off on what works in this movie?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you guys are going to give me the dumb luck here in just a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm ready.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you ready?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, I didn't hate this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't okay now we we talked about the fact that I didn't go watch this movie because I heard so many people talking about how bad it was and how it was a betrayal of the original idea and honestly Arnold Schwarzenegger even in the previews it looks stupid to me and so
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not ever see this movie until a week and a half ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I came into it with is this movie is on par with Beverly Hills Cop III, which from our last years episode, you know that I said, should be buried deep, deep, deep down in the ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't even qualify as a movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is the worst movie I've ever seen in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you guys have made this comparison.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, okay, I can't be disappointed in this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's no way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Zero expectations here, but when I watched it, yes, there's a whole lot of ridiculous, but as a guy who grew up with Batman and Robin from the sixties in the TV show, I could see where they were going, like this is what it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then even in the midst of it, you start to get the cartoon
[SPEAKER_02]: when the bad guys fall down and there's unscathes and and vines, defying gravity and the bike when it ramps, you literally can see it just hover as whatever is carried.
[SPEAKER_02]: The special effects are terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing and the dialogue is also equally bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: All of this falls back to that sixties Batman, which was not only the sixties TV series, it was the sixties comic book.
[SPEAKER_02]: The comic books in the sixties had a lighter, more cartoony type of feel to them than any of the other comic books had had.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so as I'm watching this, the only thing that I'm missing is the cup how flashing up on the screen, but otherwise this is a modern day take.
[SPEAKER_02]: on the sixties Batman and for me I just thought it was funny like I was laughing out loud because of the campy ridiculous nature of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a movie that had I watched it back in nineteen ninety seven.
[SPEAKER_02]: I probably would have been very angry and upset and I kind of realized that which is what I didn't watch it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now, getting to watch it for the first time, it's kind of funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's just, it's silly and can be, it can be so bad that it's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the best way to define it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so bad that it's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: You mentioned, you use the word cartoony.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll point out that John Glover, who is an incredible actor, plays the crazy scientist that creates Bane.
[SPEAKER_04]: Jason, he shared a story.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, Jason.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a law.
[SPEAKER_01]: You look great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially for a dead woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello Jason.
[SPEAKER_04]: He shared a story that Schumacher would be on this boom with a big megaphone before I take yelling that everyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Remember everybody?
[SPEAKER_04]: We're making a cartoon.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he said it was so difficult to get into character and just and really act.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, because we
[SPEAKER_04]: She marker was in on the joke.
[SPEAKER_04]: He made sure everyone was in on the joke.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're here to sell toys.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not making films.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not making art.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was the horror of all horse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we're going to get to what what the heck happened in unwieldy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's I think, you know, you guys talked about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's easy to blame the big bad studio, which is typically the reasonable choice because they're usually the ones to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in this situation, you had something that had gotten
[SPEAKER_02]: so big and had so many expectations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so many people wanting to have their piece of the pie and be involved in this push that you basically, you had a fire hose that was out of control.
[SPEAKER_02]: And trying to hold onto it with all of the expectations that were out there was like trying to, I don't know, trying to hold down a fire hose that's just going crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: D off the top rope with a gentleman, let's broaden our minds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: D possibly suffering from a Granger sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: Find out what the end of the episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Jeff, what works in this movie?
[SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, I think what works is not what we see, but what's happening behind the scenes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got two things that I think I actually do work here.
[SPEAKER_04]: The first would be the soundtrack.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I know you were mesmerized by seal when Batman forever came out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Me personally, my firebird was jetten all over town, like the Batmobile, but it was hold me through all me kiss to be killed me by YouTube on that whatnot.
[SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, I think the soundtrack's not that bad here.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you've got the smashing pumpkins, you've got bone thugs and harmony.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know why you don't have a kuleo song, and I've Jason and I know we kind of mentioned that.
[SPEAKER_04]: We talked about that a little bit, but pretty good soundtrack overall.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Kuleo right off of gangsters paradise, and you don't have a song from him.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's he's the banker that's that's running the illegal street racing pre-fast and furious situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you not have it?
[SPEAKER_04]: He's got a prominent scene, you see him, but you don't want to ask him to give a song.
[SPEAKER_04]: He wanted to be appreciated for his acting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was in line to play the scarecrow in the next movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Next movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dad, I don't understand it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, it's not just the soundtrack, but it's, it's Elliott Goldenthall's score.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the music, the score in this is exactly what it needs to be.
[SPEAKER_04]: It feels very burdensome, you know, like a Danny Alpen score.
[SPEAKER_04]: But a little bit bigger and more over the top and it's pretty cool, you know, it wants some awards and you know, you gotta remember Goldenthall.
[SPEAKER_04]: He had a Grammy nomination for Batman Forever.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a guy that did heat interview with the vampire, demolition man, alien three.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, good composer, good music.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I think that works.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anything else?
[SPEAKER_04]: One other thing and I, you know, D, D might think I'm suffering from a Gregor syndrome.
[SPEAKER_04]: this time, but keep in mind, it takes a lot of people to do special effects, costuming, visual effects.
[SPEAKER_04]: It all works together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's not forget that the visual effects behind this movie come from John Dijkstra.
[SPEAKER_04]: Star Wars.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's one of the most legendary names in Hollywood when it comes to visual effects.
[SPEAKER_04]: Star Trek, Star Wars, the New Godzilla movies, Rainy Spider-Man, Caddy Shack.
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on, we do.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's, well, I, well, I cringe at vehicles ramping over giant sculpture arms.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the little things like like Mr. Freeze starting to cry and like the single tier coming and turning dice.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not mistaken.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the first superhero film.
[SPEAKER_04]: To feature a fully CGI three-dimensional superhero like the bat like there's certain scenes where Batman is as a hundred percent CGI and that's common practice now, but that wasn't a thing back back then, you know, so I'm going to say John Dijkstra and Elliott Goldenthall definitely work for this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with Jeff that I mean, the set was impressive like all of the all of the set pieces were genuinely for what they were going for for what they're looking for big colorful impressive.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the giant statues that they're writing around on through Gotham, they're big and impressive and the
[SPEAKER_02]: The techniques of the stuff that they had, you know, the telescope and the observatory that they had, plus all of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the Batmobile was supposed to be a toy, but I mean, if that's what it's supposed to be, and you're supposed to be appealing to tend to twelve-year-old boys, you nailed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm looking at that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like, if I was ten or twelve, I would want that Batmobile.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fantastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: the disco ball inside the engine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still see cars driving around a day that have those friggin lights under their wheels and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: My kids love the LED effect on cars.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just something that appeals to that age group.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me, let me say what I think works in this tail works Jason.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to agree with you guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's visually.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's dazzling.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's colorful.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's dazzling for like eight year olds, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean when when poison ivy and bane go break into the whatever the hideout where the bad guys are Where they've got like the Turkish bath where they have black lights and the guys got their makeup on and I'm like this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen these guys who gets up and puts on black light makeup for gang activity But for a seven year old for me this movie is like watching two hours of the electric company Spider-Man
[SPEAKER_03]: Skip.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you guys remember that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Saturday night fever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Batman.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But hey, I mean, you think about the Batman that first seen with those guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: They all had that same face paint on it just wasn't glow in the dark face.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were the juggleos of whatever got.
[SPEAKER_03]: But
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I still, I just, I can't get over the stupidity of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're supposed to be saying what you liked about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me, let me get back to the good stuff here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think that at this moment in time, I think the cast is good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Schumacher assembled a good cast, including some of the most beautiful women in the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I just want to throw this out there because at this moment in time, you have Elmick Ferson, you have Vendala, who had been recently on the cover of Sports Illustrated Swims Edition.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ume Thurman, you could do way worse than Ume Thurman, and Schumacher called her the most beautiful woman in the world, which is why he cast her, and then Alicia Silverstone, until she opens her mouth, she's extremely attractive.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I said it's it's it's the dialogue.
[SPEAKER_04]: I get I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: This movie is awesome if you're under the age of eight.
[SPEAKER_03]: Except it's too long.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's too long.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's two hours and five minutes or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: This needs to be forty minutes an hour and forty minutes, but there needs to be more action more Batman.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right with the movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: Having a hard time with this one, aren't you?
[SPEAKER_02]: I am.
[SPEAKER_04]: This movie is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a fun record.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good chance.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, just hey Jason real quick.
[SPEAKER_04]: You you mentioned the beautiful women.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is one name that you omitted.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, did I have a VIVK fox?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, you mentioned earlier.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Who else am I miss about?
[SPEAKER_03]: How about Julie Michaels?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I'm getting some blank stairs, but I'm about to, when I tell you who she is, you're going, oh, of course, I remember Julie Michaels.
[SPEAKER_04]: Julie Michaels, famous, playmate, centerfold, who probably most famous, playing Denise in the Patrick's Weissie Classic Roadhouse.
[SPEAKER_04]: The blonde that does the dance and she's the girl that kicks Keanu Reeves butt in point break.
[SPEAKER_04]: She played freight train in point break.
[SPEAKER_04]: She has that awesome action fight sequence with Keanu Reeves in the shower.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: She killed Jason Voorhees and Jason goes to Hell the Final Friday.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was the FBI agent.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, in addition to just being an absolute smoke show, Julia is also a very talented stunt woman.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she was one of the Gotham citizens initially that gets frozen by Mr. Furries and is Reagan.
[SPEAKER_05]: What?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: Miss that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I can go watch it again, but that is very interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Apparently, he has a cameo as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: I missed that one too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stop.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, one with cool, he's one of the biker gang members with coolio.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I swear I couldn't find any confirmation of this, but you know, you had those group of guys who had kind of the Mozart wig, but were dressed in like the gray Tuxitos.
[SPEAKER_02]: I swear one of them was Paul Ruben.
[SPEAKER_02]: I swear that it was, we had P. We Herman in that biker scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know which one, that guy looks a lot like him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know why they, those guys look like that D?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, tell me.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Schumacher happens to be a Kubrick fan.
[SPEAKER_04]: So those, those, those gangs that were kind of scattered throughout there, you do see the college guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember seeing that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the drugs and then next to them are those Mozart-looking guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's from a Kubrick film Barry Lyndon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a nice touch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not enough to go back and see it again.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted it out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, uh, before we go any further, I do want to mention you mentioned Paul Rubens, aka P. We Herman.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to bring up that without P. We's big adventure.
[SPEAKER_03]: We probably don't ever get that man, eighty nine, which leads us eventually to Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're here today, basically because P. We Herman and Tim Burton
[SPEAKER_04]: knocked it out of the park with pv's big adventure in nineteen eighty five okay yeah hey the MCU Kevin Feige has made this claim the MCU does not exist without Batman and Robin he pointed out that this movie needed to derail as hard as it did for them to recalibrate and find a new formula that's right so if you like the dark night and you like the MCU universe you can think this movie
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I'm seeing the tornado that leveled the build the build again Jason wait What was the the thing that you thought works for this movie though?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't I don't think I ever got that I said it's visually dazzling.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the cast works.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you had one more.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I meant
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think that bringing back Pat Hingel and Michael Guff worked as Commissioner Gordon and Alfred.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you can think Schumacher for Michael Guff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did you know that?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, what you got from me on that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, when they were casting for Batman Forever, you know, a movie, the movie prior, the studio said, all right, who's going to be, who's Alfred?
[SPEAKER_04]: He said, Michael Guff.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're like, no, he's done.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's, he's too old.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when he talked about Schumacher went over to the UK, found him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now this is after Batman returns, mind you.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's working for a very low salary, doing stage work in like London's West End or something like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, anyone years old, and Schumacher went back to the studio, told Warner Bros.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, look, this guy isn't better shaped than I am, and he is my Alfred.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's coming back.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Schumacher's the one that fought for him to come back.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say this about Schumacher.
[SPEAKER_02]: When he decides that he wants somebody in a part, he won't look at anybody else until he gets a firm.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you're not getting this person.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just doesn't want to allow himself to be enticed by any other people when he already has somebody specifically in mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I mean, that's a great feature of his directing work.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Before we tear into this movie, can we talk about the cast real quick?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about the cast because I think you have the building blocks for a pretty good mid nineties movie, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously we talked right off the bat George Clooney as the Batman.
[SPEAKER_03]: He steps into Val Kilmer's role.
[SPEAKER_03]: George Clooney coming off ER.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was coming off from Dustle Don, which was a very good.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wasn't stupid in that movie, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He was very cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Be cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then after this, he does out a site, which is a great movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love out a site too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fantastic film.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk about smoke shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like how you play.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, you made it as plural.
[SPEAKER_02]: Smoke shows because both J. Lowe and George Clooney were smoking hot in that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you guys think about Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze?
[SPEAKER_00]: What killed the dinosaurs?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: absolutely terrible.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, he's absolutely terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, you know, you might say, well, he just came out of heart surgery, before he made this movie, but he didn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't, unless he was speaking, it wasn't you seeing, you weren't seeing Arnold Schwarzenegger, you were seeing his body double.
[SPEAKER_02]: They had a whole bunch of body doubles.
[SPEAKER_02]: They had three shots, you know, three productions going on throughout where body doubles were used all over the place.
[SPEAKER_02]: but his speaking parts being the only parts that he had to be concerned with were horrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which I'd like to blame him or I'd like to blame the writing but it seems like it's both because he had delivered those one liners when he did commando and it came off effectively and then he gets these one liners again and it's just terrible.
[SPEAKER_03]: They wasted him because why do you hire Arnold Schwarzenegger and not show off the reason why people look at Arnold Schwarzenegger?
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got to have the muscles.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, Mr. if Mr. Freeze would have been like rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[SPEAKER_04]: You also don't ask him to, you know, feel free to add lib because Shumatra talks about this on the, on his audio commentary for the, for the movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: So guy, yeah, I don't know, loves his one lineers.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I just told him like, yeah, I have some fun with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I watched this movie three times in this past week.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I may have missed one or two, but my official count is thirty one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thirty one times Arnold gave some silly Arctic or ice themed pun in the film.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's so bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a walking catchphrase.
[SPEAKER_03]: The iceman come and loot it with the winter of your doom.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we think about Robin and Chris O'Donnell?
[SPEAKER_04]: I dislike his performance so much in this, but he's not the worst in the movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's redeeming quality there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can watch it go, well at least he's not this actor.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure we'll get to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so hold on, let's just, let's, let's look at it from that frame of reference.
[SPEAKER_02]: Compared to, and we're not talking about them as actors as a whole, but their performance in this movie, who was he worse than was he worse than George Clooney?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was he, was he worse than, who Mathurman?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was he worse than Arnold Schwarzenegger?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was he worse than Alicia Silverstone?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just said that when she opens her mouth, she's horrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're saying that she was better than him?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the answer is no.
[SPEAKER_02]: All of the main actors other than Chris Adonnell were horrible in their line delivery.
[SPEAKER_02]: These guys did not have a whole lot to work with.
[SPEAKER_02]: These were really, really badly written lines.
[SPEAKER_02]: And from my perspective, O'Donnell is the only one that pulled off what was given to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Granted, he's a whiny brat that you cannot stand.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's written that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he really just hams it up in some of his scenes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the, you know, when it's bat, bat, bite gets cut.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we cut the power on his bat, bite.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: He's having a Captain Curt Con moment there on that statue on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we don't need that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just dial it down, Chris.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a little.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you're talking about a guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to put this, but like, yes, it was bad, but it was surrounded by so much worse that he's still the best one there.
[SPEAKER_03]: That might be fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, but can you argue, can you, can you, I mean, George Clooney is playing George Clooney though.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know the word.
[SPEAKER_02]: George Clooney is smirking and smiling when he's delivering the news of the McGregor syndrome of the guy who raised him from the time he was a child.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no, like, what?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's, I have that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have that and what does it work?
[SPEAKER_04]: I have what does that, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: line delivery of every actor in this movie is terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just that O'Donnell's is the least terrible of them all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey Jeff, what was the line that Alicia Silverstone says that both of us were just dying laughing the other day?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, when when they're when they're plummeting to their death and he catches her and he's like, I've got you, but his line breaks and then she shoots her bat line and she's like, no, I've got you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, shut up.
[SPEAKER_03]: What about when she's like, hey, Bruce, it's me Barbara.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she shows up on an house.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bruce, it's me Barbara.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bring a no-crab, Barbara.
[SPEAKER_04]: What are you doing here?
[SPEAKER_04]: World's greatest detective.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you are?
[SPEAKER_03]: Back girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not awfully PC.
[SPEAKER_01]: What about bad person or bad woman?
[SPEAKER_01]: First it's me, Barbara.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found the back cave.
[SPEAKER_04]: We gotta get those locks changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: She knows who we are.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here she'll just have to kill her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, we'll kill her later.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have work to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do you?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you deliver that line?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, like, how can you say that?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no way.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really, at the time that I was watching them and he was like, I've got you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really wanted her to say, you've got me who's got you because that would have been the fallback to Superman, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they twisted it and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, again, some really, really bad lines to deal with in this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's me Barbara if she just wouldn't have delivered it like she was nine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that would have made a little more less crunchy.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, uh, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like your kid comes in with the Halloween mask and says boo and you're like, oh, then they tear up dad.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I fooled you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got a question for you guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to I want to pose the what ifs to y'all real quick.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was going instead of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's who they looked at as Mr. Freeze.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell me better or worse.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ed Harris.
[SPEAKER_04]: Way better.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm I'm just going based off like the like the comic and I'm not trying to be that comic nerd that's like he doesn't I'm just saying you need someone that can if you're going to hide him in this big bulky suit let it be a frail sickly scientist looking guy at Harris would have been better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Home run, Oklahoma sooner out of the ballpark right here, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: I was waiting for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: How about Patrick Stewart?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that would have been a different take.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what they had in my animated version.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: That would have been way better in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_02]: He might have, he might have found a way to deliver those lines, believably.
[SPEAKER_03]: I heard Anthony Hopkins as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't really see that, but as far as acting, he cannot be bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, let's just look at Batman for a second.
[SPEAKER_03]: George Clooney's who they hired David DeCovney is who they were looking at.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's worse, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it is worse.
[SPEAKER_04]: That would have been a worse choice.
[SPEAKER_03]: How about Billy Baldwin?
[SPEAKER_04]: worse.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not ready.
[SPEAKER_03]: Too young.
[SPEAKER_03]: Was Clooney the best guy they, they could have got at that moment in time?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I would say yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I kind of agree with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he's a choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: His deliveries on everything, but he's not like he isn't anything else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know what to do with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: These were bad directing decisions and terrible lines.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did it sounds like you just don't like how clearly likes to Bob is head and smile at you.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to die for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's about dying for years.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's dead.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't say.
[SPEAKER_04]: Jason, you did have some great picks there for for freeze.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know who shoe mocker wanted if he couldn't get Arnold?
[SPEAKER_04]: He got for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is from shoe mockers own mouth.
[SPEAKER_04]: I heard this on the audio commentary.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was looking if Schwarzenegger wasn't going to do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Stallone was his number two pick.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Logan was his number three.
[SPEAKER_04]: Based off of Rocky III, he has, like, I'll take Thunderlips.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I could actually see Hulk Hogan being print kind of pretty good in this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, he doesn't even kind of cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's so full cheese all of the time anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes what is coming out of his mouth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, yeah, I could see Hulk Hogan saying these ridiculous things because he just says that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: He is, yes, those lines were like, what a pro wrestler would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've solved the puzzle.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see Hulk Hogan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nigma.
[SPEAKER_04]: The E. Nigma.
[SPEAKER_04]: I speak in a speaking of a speaking of a hooking.
[SPEAKER_04]: You do know that one of the prominent actors in this film starred in, in nineteen eighty-nine's, no holds barred, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Bane.
[SPEAKER_04]: Bane himself.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jeeps Winston.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: Past away like two months after this movie was released.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sadly, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He got to go enjoy this movie before he met his untimely death.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He probably thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so Jeff did I did I send you the Instagram on him like he obviously he died as a as a very young actor right and like forty years old at one point had the Guinness Book of World Records for largest biceps
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he did leave behind a daughter who is now known as Viking Barbie because she also is a taller, stronger looking lady.
[SPEAKER_02]: Guys, if you're looking this up right now, might not have the kids in the room when you look up her Instagram page, just saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's actually got like a fifteen million followers on well who Instagram pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a really talented singer.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will point that out.
[SPEAKER_02]: She does sing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if Talon is the right word, but yes, she does sing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'll tell you, if you ever check out her cover of Creep that she does with Jelly Roll, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: Pretty good.
[SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll curl metal wrap stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying that's all that great, but when she wants to sing, it's pretty good.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got some alternate for you for Poison Ivy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna throw these names out to you, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: These are the names tossed around in place of Boomatherman.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know one of them and I'm already gonna say yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Demi Moore.
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: In ninety six?
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, you guys are crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll take it any more in a second.
[SPEAKER_03]: How about how about Julie Roberts?
[SPEAKER_02]: That would have been fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: She'd been better, but still.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not good.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not, I'm not, not vibing it yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other name I heard was Sharon Stone.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the winner right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Winner.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she just being just existing is hot.
[SPEAKER_02]: She just existing in the mid nineties is fire hot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you would have had to have been to pull off this horribly written part.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think they wasted like poison ivy has zero sexuality in this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were trying real hard and just missed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I heard Joel Schumacher say that he thought, you know, the first time he saw her was, as she came out of the shell as Venus in Baron von Moukhausen, which is when I fell in love with her because I was teenager and you saw her nipples.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and so I was like, yes, I like her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, I was, and she was also hot in Pulp fiction, even with the weird hair and all that other jazz.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, to have to see her do this and just be not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hot at all like it just almost unsettling nothing appealing about it at all and then she delivered I see those nipples And she delivered all of her lines as though she was May West in the nineteen forties.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't I don't get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: No guy finds that appealing
[SPEAKER_04]: She mockered gave her a lot of license.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you didn't know this, she's responsible for a lot of her makeup look and a lot of her hairstyles.
[SPEAKER_04]: She came up with those herself.
[SPEAKER_04]: The voice, I don't know where that came from or why, but real bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: And speaking of nipples.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, everybody's here to take it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how we have gone for something, thirty, five, forty minutes, whatever we've been going and have not talked about the bat nipples yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if these are supposed to be anatomically correct costumes, anatomically correct bands are in run.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've got female characters wearing costumes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't see no background nibbles.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or any poison ivy nibbles.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lack of equality in this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very disappointed.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, seriously, though, people were upset about the bat nibbles on the bat suit.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's like line item fifty on what sucks about this movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fact that they changed suits in the middle of a fight with Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy at the end of the movie, they all changed costumes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, what the crap is going on here?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because yeah, when that came on, I was like, ooh.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why didn't they wear that the whole time?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the silver on there.
[SPEAKER_02]: It looks badass.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, wait, man, throw that other one away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bring this thing out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, it will move.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had it.
[SPEAKER_03]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we had it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not to mention the fact that, you know, the max headroom Alfred gave Alicia Silverstone, the keys to the bat kingdom without any training and throws her out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she just shows up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, I'm Barbara.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so stupid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, she studied judo at Oxbridge or something or it will not.
[SPEAKER_02]: suit me up on go out for all my gosh and one more thing we have this whole thing where he's looking for his brother and trying to get this message to his brother and no closure on that moment like I don't really like I like that you know me that's check-off's gun man if you did that thing didn't go off and and act to you got a problem and it didn't go off
[SPEAKER_04]: You remember how upset you were over the Poison Ivy monkey suit strippedies?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can tell you the reason why that exists.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is almost a shot for shot remake from a movie called Blonde Venus.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in that movie, Marlene Adetrick, who was the the smoke show of her of her time, does a strip tease from a gorilla suit.
[SPEAKER_04]: and Schumacher just wanted to go old Hollywood and to sex up Poison Ivy he decided to go old Hollywood with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was, and that's why she's in the monkey suit.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Venus was who she was playing when he fell in love with her and very barren von mucus.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's has to be there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is mental connection there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we onto things that don't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're there.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna double the episode with things that don't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: What doesn't work, guys?
[SPEAKER_02]: The dialogue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dialogue is terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the delivery of said dialogue makes it even worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can have bad dialogue and pair it with good acting and you're going to be probably okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you pair it with horrible acting and horrible directing, there's just no saving it.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was it?
[SPEAKER_04]: You guys would know more than I would.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was it?
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a famous thing about Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford where
[SPEAKER_02]: Mark was considered was was worried about the dialogue in Harrison said something like kid if people are in the the trash compact your scene and Mark Hamill goes to George Lucas is is about to go to George Lucas and is like
[SPEAKER_02]: What would my hair be all like wet and foolish mults and stuff like that?
[SPEAKER_02]: And Harrison Ford is like, it ain't that kind of movie kid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, this is not that kind of movie, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Good acting.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can get away with stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, bad acting, bad dialogue.
[SPEAKER_03]: At what point did this movie lose you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because for me, it's like it literally is like one minute in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because the movie starts with cod pieces and bat butts.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I'm just going to say keep in mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's at one minute and thirty seconds that those, that that little, the very first thing that you see is them throwing on the costume, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The pre-credits are a minute and fifteen seconds long.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you call, if you're looking at the actual movie and not just who all of the actors and directors and everything else is you're looking at the actual movie, it's fifteen seconds before you see jiggling butts and jiggling crutches.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's impressive.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't lose me at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just went, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know what, I know what to expect at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: How far we've fallen from Batman?
[SPEAKER_03]: Where the opening credits, you know, you're kind of moving around the bat signal and you're like, oh, it's mysterious.
[SPEAKER_03]: You got the great soundtrack.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, man, that's the bat signal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm so hooked in.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this literally, thirty seconds, I'm like, this is stupid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you go back and you listen to our our episode on Batman eighty nine that was a a prime decision making factor on not making the movie honestly they did not want to have the nineteen sixties Batman Tim Burton did not want to direct it if what they wanted was the nineteen sixties Batman it was it was the agreement that this should be more in the frankmiller dark night style
[SPEAKER_02]: that got the movie made in the first place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And obviously, it was the right decision because the movie was an astronomical blockbuster, defied all expectations.
[SPEAKER_02]: So why three movies later do you go?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's just do it like we did it in the sixties.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just make it a cartoon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the other thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: They had the playbook already laid out for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Superman went from awesome Superman one, pretty good Superman two, bad Superman three, bad, bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ed Superman three, two, horrible Superman four.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, jaws, same playbook, same story.
[SPEAKER_03]: Incredible, pretty good, bad, bad, too horrible, although we like it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: They're both pretty bad, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's your playbook.
[SPEAKER_03]: All you have to do is not follow the what what they did to not end up in the place you are.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just it's so inexcusable.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't even put words to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I will say this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wholeheartedly understand why every one of this of our age group at the time that they watched Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: felt the way that they did because to them it was the same experience I had when I watched Superman Four.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't just that this was a bad movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was this was a bad movie after you had made me fall in love with you for the first at least two movies, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was such a betrayal.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is why everybody despises this movie as much as they do.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like last action hero when we discussed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I went in with no expectations at all and was not disappointed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a different take that I can see why everybody hated.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think there's anybody that can watch Superman four and say, oh, yeah, I can see what they're going for here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think there's any way that happens.
[SPEAKER_04]: But Jason, ironically, the scene where you lose me is also the scene where you win me over at different points in my life.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when I'm watching this the first time in the movie theater is a kid, there's a scene where I'm like, oh, really?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that what we're doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: And as an adult, the scene, the same scene hits and I'm like, yeah, all right, let's have fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's after the gratuitous cod peace nipple display.
[SPEAKER_04]: We spent four and a half minutes watching the neon disco ball car come spinning out of the ground.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're on their way and the little TV pops up with Commissioner Gordon Batman.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to new villain and town is called himself Mr. Freeze.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is straight out of Batman.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sixty six.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And as a kid, I was like, I grew up on, you know, there's Nick and night reruns and I loved it, but I was already onto
[SPEAKER_04]: Frank Miller and I was already on to Tim Burton and all that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't want can't be Batman anymore, but as an adult, you know, D talked about this earlier.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of fun to watch this movie as an updated.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sixty six Batman.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're exactly right.
[SPEAKER_03]: That line where Robin's like, don't wait up, Alfred.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, oh, counsel the pizzas.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm just going to disclose the process that we went through.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jason was like, I cannot make it through this movie in one sitting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to have to watch it in pieces, which is what you did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Think about four tries.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that has to have system from your anger that you still feel thirty years, nearly later.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm bitter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I could also tell you this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I rewound it to take some pictures.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I rewound the, uh, do we call that anymore?
[SPEAKER_02]: I reversed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do we say when we're streaming?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go rewind.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thirty seconded back a couple of times.
[SPEAKER_02]: One was to get the face of the, the goons, you know, the, the ice hockey goons, because hockey team from hell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the hockey team from hell.
[SPEAKER_02]: After he punches him through the tray, punches him the guy through the tray.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you see his face like through the tray.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like that mask is the predator mask.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's in it to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: A hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like dude predator mask, which I thought that's fun because Arnold was in this movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Arnold and Jesse both in this movie, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why not have that's that's fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also, the closer I had it, because it goes by fast.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was seen by fast and so did the next one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I guess this was before that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Batman talking about how much money he has.
[SPEAKER_02]: What?
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, is that a terrible dialogue between the two of them like you have the money to bid on her.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll take it from you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll borrow from you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he flashes a credit card and it's on the screen for about half a second, but I managed to freeze it at the right spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it says, it says on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's got the Gotham card, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And it says Batman.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's his name on the card.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I Bruce Wayne Batman.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it says good through forever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, Oh, that's a good touch.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that is, that is a lot of work for us for a point zero five clip.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they got a lot of money to put that in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, don't leave home without it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't even have it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have visa.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have American Express.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like Gotham Card or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's not even a there's not even a merchandising thing on that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you imagine Batman going to the bank to fill out the paperwork to get that card?
[SPEAKER_03]: It almost says ridiculous is him going to court as Batman and Batman forever.
[SPEAKER_04]: I like the thing that maybe he that was like he got a letter like you're pre-approved.
[SPEAKER_04]: He just called the number man.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I laugh every time I hear this this love this line of dialogue when we're talking about how bad the writing is the dialogue.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's not forget that the movie has dialogue from Uma Thurman to Arnold Schwarzenegger where she says the line, I'll help you grab your rocks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come on man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, that's not half as bad as Clooney every time he says Dick Grayson's name.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like Dick Dick.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's no accident when he does that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you happen to know where he got the decision to choose Bane and Poison Ivy as the don't?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, that was not a studio decision.
[SPEAKER_04]: And on the audio commentary, he talks about how, hey, this is the fourth movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're running out of people and who do we go to?
[SPEAKER_04]: And you gotta remember, Batman, the animated series was wildly popular, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: At the time, Schumacher sought the advice of his six year old Godson and asked this child who should Batman and Robin
[SPEAKER_04]: fight in the new movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this kid said, my favorites are Bane and Poison Ivy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is the main reason, the only reason that they were chosen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, get that credit for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I watched this, I literally thought I've seen Star Wars Kinder commercials that had more drama and where there's like, Chibaka, let's go see what's going on down here.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, okay guys I want before we I've got a few tidbits.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to cover with you guys before we do I've got a I wanted to call them cut this with you a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's just a few changes that you could tweak to make this maybe not a good movie But at least Batman forever type of good, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: I am always excited to hear the call from cut.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's what I have in mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: See what you guys think about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously we toned down the campiness, the costumes.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to make that meant for over here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So just ton it down a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: The ice puns just a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not asking for everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just ton it down a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I want to see the origin story with Mr. Freeze.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to see his wife.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why should we care about her?
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like his entire motivation.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't care about her.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got Vendola.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we don't get to see her walking around in real life.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a waste.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to see.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's see the wedding video.
[SPEAKER_02]: And try it with someone into the movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's so stupid.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to legit origin story for freeze and I want to see vandalow walking around on on a Schwarzenegger's arm doing life together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Number two, somebody has to die in this movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm up for anybody, okay Robin Jason died.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now forget Jason Jason
[SPEAKER_03]: Robin, Barbara, I want to see, not Alfred Nott and McGregor syndrome.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to see him killed by Poison Ivy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Commissioner Gordon, any of these people could be killed by a villain.
[SPEAKER_03]: Somebody has to have real malice in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Somebody a meaningful character has to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Number three, we have to streamline the villains.
[SPEAKER_03]: Two max, not three.
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't need Bane.
[SPEAKER_03]: He did nothing.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was just a goon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Number four, we need streamline the heroes.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have too many.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have too many people in this movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have Batman, you have Dick.
[SPEAKER_03]: you have Barbara, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: Get rid of Dick.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it would have been cool actually to see Robin launch into a new movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, hey, like they were supposed to do?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, hey, Metropolis needs Superman has been gone for five years and they're having trouble.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go to Metropolis and help out.
[SPEAKER_03]: See a Dick.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Nightwing or whatever you're going to call yourself, seal and get him out of there, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: You want a dickless movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want a dickless movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I want what I think you should have done was should have taken El McPherson's character of Julie and Poison Ivy, who with her written character?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you combine that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You take one woman.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you give Batman or Bruce a romance where she also is a villain.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's very similar to Catwoman and Selena Kyle, but it adds a hook, it adds interest.
[SPEAKER_03]: If he's thinking about marrying this girl and she turns into Poison Ivy, I think that would have been way more interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: So just a few tweaks.
[SPEAKER_03]: I still don't think you can say this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the best thing you could have done to this movie was burn the negative.
[SPEAKER_03]: But with just a few tweaks, you could have had at least a watchable summer blockbuster movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: All I'll say about that COVID cut is that Julie, El McPherson's character, actually is Ken and she was a Gotham socialite that Bruce Wayne, she was like his, his, his sweetheart for a long time back in the forties and fifties.
[SPEAKER_03]: So turning her to Poison Ivy, I don't know, but that's what we just, maybe he's hitting on this botany teacher named Pamela Ivy or whatever name is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Other than that, I agree that some stakes, like someone dying would have been given a little more gravitas, but I don't want to see poison ivy kiss, Michael Gough, or Pattingle, because that's just sad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Watching those guys act like buffoons when she blows powder in their face.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so stupid.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very bad in it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jeff, you got anything you're going to do to improve this movie other than burn the negative.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the only the only way to enjoy this movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's one or two ways either you hop in the door in you go back and you convince the studio to let Schumacher make the movie that he wanted to make or you live in this world where
[SPEAKER_04]: You sit down and you go, I grew up loving the reruns of the Sixty Six movie and the Sixty Six show and I just want to live in that world a little bit more and you just embrace it for what it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then you get a palette cleanser with like the Batman or Batman begins or any Batman really that's not this movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the way you fix it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything you can do to fix this movie?
[SPEAKER_02]: And don't say it doesn't need fixing.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fix on this one is to go rewrite the script.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't mean that you have to change the storyline.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that you think it's just this, you know, two hour long toy advertisement.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there was actually like a story arc to the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you go back and you change the dialogue and you change the delivery,
[SPEAKER_02]: then this movie becomes a really good movie, I think, actually.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, you know, there's been a lot of talk in the past year or so about Batman forever, the shoe mocker cut, which makes it a darker movie and a better movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you guys have seen any of the behind the scenes, like the the takes, like the alternate stuff, it would be a lot cooler.
[SPEAKER_04]: It'd be a lot better film.
[SPEAKER_04]: Batman forever that is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: My question is there was a lot more bat girl stuff that was in the movie and was supposed to be in the movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was this whole, I'm sure you guys remember this whole smear campaign against Alicia Silverstone because God forbid an eighteen year old girl gains a little weight here and there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there was some issues with the costume, so they cut a lot of stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm wondering, is this a better movie?
[SPEAKER_04]: If you put more Batgirl in it to kind of flesh out her story, so maybe aren't just liking her?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm asking.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just putting it out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen, Alicia Silverstone can give you clueless.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she obviously couldn't kind of, you know, she can play a tougher part like she did in the crush.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that girl has to be wise, sophisticated, alluring.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if we look back at, if we look back at other takes on it, she needs to be more than just a teenage kind of ditzy girl, which is what we got.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know that doing more of that would actually be a good thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: One quick tidbit before we uh, kept this thing off.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this movie is the reason why the Tim Burton Nick Cage Superman movie was killed off.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you can credit that to this.
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, Nick Cage was one of the ones considered to play scarecrow had they made.
[SPEAKER_02]: another had Schumacher made another Batman over he was a possibility now he would have been a great scarecrow like scarecrow has to be nuts and the cage is good at nuts but yeah now I think that that's yeah that is a that is another positive you know check that on the positive category that we didn't get
[SPEAKER_02]: Nick Cage as Superman.
[SPEAKER_04]: Three movies got killed because of this one because it killed the Superman movie it killed Batman and Chained which was gonna be the next one and then it killed the Nightwing movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: They were gonna do a spin off with Chris O'Donnell.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, there you go.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this movie kills three movies
[SPEAKER_03]: By the way, just you brought up Batman and Chained.
[SPEAKER_03]: The idea for that was you have the scarecrow you introduce Harley Quinn and through the scarecrow's those hallucinogenic things that he does to your brain, whatever Jack Nicholson as the Joker was going to reappear.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: take my money.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't care what Batman forever was or Batman and Robin was seeing Joker with Jack Nicholson back on the screen.
[SPEAKER_03]: That would have been awesome.
[SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I'll give you one laugh.
[SPEAKER_04]: It actually killed four movies.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I'm just now remember in this one Arnold does this movie and ends up saying no because the production is going to run too close together.
[SPEAKER_04]: He says no to the third Conan the barbarian movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was going to be, it was Conan, Conan the Conqueror, and when they couldn't make a deal, that studio went forward with it and changed to coal, the Conqueror, and got, and brought in Kevin Cerro.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our third Conan movie that we've always wanted and waited for didn't happen because of Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_02]: One more quick to bet.
[SPEAKER_02]: The guy who is the skinny, serial killer that they turn into, Bane,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that actor's name is Michael Reed McCay, and if you, you see a really skinny guy in any particular movie, it's probably going to be that guy, but one of the parts that he did play is the mummy and monster squad.
[SPEAKER_02]: which I'm just throwing out there because Jason and I are going to cover Monster Squad versus Teen Wolf.
[SPEAKER_02]: You will film October when we're doing her Halloween stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Heck yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just, I mean, I'm not going to give away which movie I'm picking between this and Superman Returns, but I will say this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't put this in the worst Batman movie category.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would rather rewatch Batman and Robin
[SPEAKER_02]: than the Josh Weedon, Justice League, five days out of the week.
[SPEAKER_02]: I might watch the next week, two of the days, but I would rather watch the throwback to Adam West than the throwback to crap.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, well, everybody, come back next week where Jeff, you're coming back and we're going to talk about Superman Returns.
[SPEAKER_03]: Brian Singers attempt at the Superman Universe.
[SPEAKER_03]: We get a kind of a Christopher Reeve look alike.
[SPEAKER_03]: We bring back John Williams music and it all comes together and is kind of a fizzle.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, we're going to talk about what happened in that and come back for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jeff, what do you got coming up on your podcast?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, if I could, I'd like to talk quickly about what already happened on our podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just because, you know, it's relevant to this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm imagining if you're, if you're listening to this, obviously you're, you're Shirley fans like I am, but you're also Batman fans.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm happy to talk about this one recently.
[SPEAKER_04]: We celebrated our four hundredth episode with a very special
[SPEAKER_04]: Batman episode and Jason you know what I'm talking about I promise you it's it's like nothing you've ever heard before if you like Batman check out our four hundredth episode which is called Batman a film by Richard Donner and that's all I'll say I'd love that episode by the way nice thank you thank you yes that was a lot of fun alright we'll see you guys back here next week yep thanks Jeff see you guys thank you guys looking forward to it
[SPEAKER_04]: Every day until the weekend when I'm fly to Florida.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nice.
[SPEAKER_04]: What are you doing in Florida?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, me and Drew and two of our other buddies, they got permission from the wives to head out on a guy's trip.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're going to go to Disney World.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, hold on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I said the same thing when they're like, I was like, really, that's what you guys would do.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they Andrew made a good point.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, man, he goes, Devon doesn't care about Star Wars.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my kids are like three years old.
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't care about Star Wars.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just want to go to Galaxy's Edge.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to build a lightsaber.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to fly them on any Falcon.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, all right, I'm in.
[SPEAKER_04]: You sold me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said, because I've never been to Disney World.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't care about Princesses and T.K.
[SPEAKER_04]: Uprides and bullshit like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now,
[SPEAKER_04]: But I definitely want to hang out in Star Wars world for like a whole day or two or three, whatever we're gonna do.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's what I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna love it, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm super excited.