[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, Your Host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Nazineen Moali.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to another episode of the psychology podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Over the past few episodes, we've been diving deep into many expressions of consensual non-monogamy, and today we are focusing on relationship and arcade.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm joined by Roy Graff, a London-based relationship counselor and coach who specializes in helping individuals and couples explore non-traditional dynamics through a lens of self-compassion, self-avernance and radical honesty.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this conversation, Roy shares his personal journey from traditional relationship models to becoming a relationship anarchist.
[SPEAKER_01]: How certain partnership is shaped his values, how he navigated jealousy and what it really means to love without hierarchy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But before we dive in, I want to thank our sponsor Wifi, a leader in the world of ethical non-monogamy storytelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wifi offers an authentic nuanced and visually stunning looking to real relationships that challenge outdated stereotypes and invite you to think differently about love.
[SPEAKER_01]: trust and desire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their darkest style content spotlights real couples, especially in the hot-wife lifestyle sharing handy interviews and intimate moments that break the mold of mainstream portrayals.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you curious about exploring these dynamics further, I highly recommend checking out their content at wifi.vmg.studio and following them on Instagram at wifi updates.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, let's get into the enlightening conversation with Roy Graff as we explore relationship and ackey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am so excited to welcome Roy Graff on our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Roy welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's good to be here?
[SPEAKER_01]: We are very excited about this opportunity of learning about you, about your journey and also your clinician, about your clinical work as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that we talk about relationship on Arcade a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us a bit about your journey with love and relationships?
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you arrive to this as a form of relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: That speaks to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will try and give you a short version because I'm fifty-five but I've been in romantic relationships for about forty years already.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot to cover.
[SPEAKER_02]: In terms of how I got to where I am now, as with most people, I started my romantic life very much looking for monobomy looking for the one looking for a life companion partner, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: been a serial monogamous, we can say, until my early forties.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've had about three or four long-term monogamous relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what was common to them was that after about three years or so, I started feeling routine and that everything was basically anticipated, you know, it was not surprising.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was, I guess, before the age of, like, internet advice and, and look in knowing that you can go and see a therapist and figure out what's wrong with your love life, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, in each case, I felt that something was missing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what it was, but I felt some restrictions, some constriction around my freedom.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I often would find myself also noticing and somehow developing some feelings for other people while
[SPEAKER_02]: being in a good healthy relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that felt confusing to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it felt that something was wrong with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I can't really fully commit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm blaming maybe my divorce parents, my growing up in different parts of the world, and not really having a lot of stability in my early life.
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe being avoiding the attached to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, both that was on my mind and ultimately by the time I hit Forty, I was separated, I had a small child and I felt that just one of them it doesn't work for me and because I didn't know the way other alternatives, I also thought this is relationships are not for me and I will just date casually, I would tell the people I was dating that I'm not looking for anything serious and
[SPEAKER_02]: and basically we contend with having a friends group and friendship group.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that was kind of where I was in my early forties and I then met somebody on a dating app that introduced a concept of nominogamy to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Prior to that, I had been in some form of, I guess, open marriage for a few months where our six life, you know, died after ten years together and she suggested that I just sleep with a lot of people, but don't tell her about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What we call, don't ask, don't tell no dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that maybe extended the relationship a bit longer, but ultimately was not a fix.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't kind of approach a non-monogamy from that place of like trying to rescue the relationship that isn't working for other reasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's really all I knew.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was talking about non-monogamy as an ethical, conscious, open and transparent choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where everybody is talks about what they're doing, where we share information, where we also mind sexual health and get tested and everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And where there is responsibility for everybody involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was like a re-commoment of, oh, well, this is actually something that people do.
[SPEAKER_02]: That me having feelings from one person at a time is in a freak thing, you know, I'm not a weird or a wrong thing for doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what's my kind of disorder that my journey in the last, yeah, about twelve years or so I have been through different iterations of non-monopoly and
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose come to accept that I am polyamorous as an identity, as my orientation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always been, and this is why monogamy never felt like it was quite a fit, and I feel much more myself, much more authentically when I am able to practice polyamory.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as I mean, I always need multiple partners, but that they have the freedom to connect with people organically and naturally if we both want that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that can look like a committed relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can look like something more like friendship, maybe friends with benefit.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be romantic and non-sexual.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be lots of variations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this brought me into religious banarchy, really, which isn't so much a religious dynamic as a religious philosophy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can be a religious anarchist, even if your choice is to be sexually exclusive with one person, for example.
[SPEAKER_02]: because what it really talks about is challenging the nature and the priority and hierarchy of all of our relationality universe, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And which includes even family, friends, relatives, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: And really what it says is, don't
[SPEAKER_02]: a fixed value to relationship just because society deems that this is the value that you have, because say somebody is your sibling or your parent or your child, then they automatically get access to you in a certain way versus somebody who is a friend that you met.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just look at the internship individually, what value can generate together, how much interest you can have, and then what do you represent in each other's life?
[SPEAKER_02]: So my close friends are just as important to me as my romantic partners.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was so prioritized time with different people, but it wouldn't be based necessarily on whether I have sex with them or with kids or we kind of know it's not about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that as a philosophy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I try to live that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't always mean that it's easy because my friends might be monogamous and how partners who wanted the man more their time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're not available to me as much.
[SPEAKER_02]: And having a romantic and sexual partner that also is compatible with you in activities makes it much easier and more accessible to do things together.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do try to challenge that narrative in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it brings me a much richer experience because
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm able to go much deeper with more people in a way that I wouldn't be able to, if I say state in the mononormative mindset, where that mononormous partner should or need to provide and meet all of my needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: That feels like a lot of weight and responsibility to put on one person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what a beautiful journey, you know, sometimes people think about, okay, when you are in four days and fifty I am in my four days, people think about, oh well, you know, like there's not opportunity for sexual discovery.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm glad that you had opportunity to learn more about yourself, kind of like curate this beautiful new chapters when it came to relationship and sexuality.
[SPEAKER_01]: You brought up such a great point that I know many people come in to me for couples counseling and they want to open the relationship because it's not working.
[SPEAKER_01]: Often time it's like one partner, the desired discrepancy is a lot, one partner is not interested in having sex, whether they identify as asexual, which is very valid.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you said that didn't work for you, it just like worked a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so you're experienced, what was the setback with that approach for you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it's more like we didn't know to communicate around our needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we basically became popularized and just stopped talking and it was easier to say just go and do this thing that you have a need for somebody else and it wasn't that she didn't have the needs but she didn't have the windows needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just that.
[SPEAKER_02]: She couldn't connect with me in that way anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we missed that really important step of first of all, let's talk about our intimacy and our communication.
[SPEAKER_02]: If somebody loses desire, but still as well as somebody realizes maybe after many, many years of giving something that is very difficult for them, like a very sexual, but they're having sex for the other person from a people pleasing.
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of drive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then yes, maybe the opportunity to say, you know what, I am a sexual or my desire, my individual is not the same as you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't mind, and I'm happy for you to go and explore that with somebody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: The same thing can apply to if you discover you have a certain thing, but your partner is just not interested in that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, if we're open and we can make an agreement that helps us feel safer around it, then you can go and explore it with somebody that shares that same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can focus on the things that do connect us, that do that we do have in common, that we do love still to together to share.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think in this case, it can help because it just brings more responsiveness.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but what, again, it's important to go through that process.
[SPEAKER_02]: which I often do also in my very practice of just making sure that you have optimal communication.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when I hear a couple of times you have this experience of having a discussion around the conflict, I just observe how they communicate, how much ownership it takes over their own part.
[SPEAKER_02]: an issue and that has to be the first point you started before you go and go on a date or introduce a third person to your love life or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that will just trigger a lot of the insecurities that you probably didn't even know you had and if you can't talk about them in a mature and empathetic way it will introduce a massive chasm into your connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad that it seems like for as you said, like for many people, I'm glad to see that they're looking for solutions.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think I have thinking about opening up the relationship as an ultimate solution.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's often as you said, lead to disappointment, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: People, it's often time is not necessarily only about sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about the connection for many people.
[SPEAKER_01]: If people want to start that journey kind of like improving the communication piece also would be very important.
[SPEAKER_01]: They talked about meeting with like a fine someone and dating app, but they were into consensual non monogamy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell us more like how did your journey from there started?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you kind of like did you start a dating that person or you started going on apps?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of curious what was that transition like?
[SPEAKER_02]: My connection with her was based on matching, having getting a ninety-nine percent match on OKQ pit, which was quite rare for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was quite excited about how compatible we are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've had experience in the past where we had this high match, but in person, there's no chemistry, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Without a well-incent chemistry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, I would have said yes to anything just to go on a second date with Earth.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I really liked her.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the fact that I found what she said actually made little sense, with the fear of jealousy, potentially coming off, etc., was the stiffness things that I noticed in myself as a man growing up with quite a bit of toxic masculinity.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I was excited about trying something that I haven't tried before because what I did try didn't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: or didn't work enough to stay in a long-term relationship beyond a certain marker, a certain time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we started dating.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were in an open relationship for a year.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess made a lot of mistakes in terms of not sure how to talk to her about meeting other women, struggling to maybe accept one.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is going on date with developing another relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was open for a while that it turned into polyamorous relationship when she had another partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: But over time, it was validating to see that when I go away and I have somebody else and share that with her, which is very cool about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's very accepting, happy to hear that I'm had a nice time, but I did, you know, some of the, I guess early mistakes I've made was going to be rushing to tell her I'm connected with a new person and I want to have a relationship with them before I even was sure that
[SPEAKER_02]: there is a real connection there just because I was excited somebody was said yes to try and pull the armory you know but that person also wasn't experienced so if you get too inexperienced people trying to do that they think they're quite messy and yeah so I learned to like slow down and actually talk about boundaries about making some agreements about how to share information as well it has to be the right time and this you know the person has to be kind of ready to receive it
[SPEAKER_02]: So, ultimately, I met her other partner, we became friends, and while neither of us are seeing her anymore, ironically, we're still friendly, you know, that was nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, that lasted about a year, ultimately, what she wanted from her relationship changed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was quite, I guess the truth is I got quite excited about this new life and maybe a little bit radio wanting to date a lot and see what people and she felt I was giving her less attention and I think that was true.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we separated it in a very nice way with still friends and that was quite an old time ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: From there I suppose I discovered that there is also a community around that and you don't have to necessarily only go online and for dates, the dating apps are quite tricky for non-monogamous people and for the Amazon people since all of them don't certainly make space to filter people by that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if I match with somebody and they don't read my profile very carefully or they don't really understand what it means and just match and then when I expected them or tell them, you know, maybe you should read my profile before we keep talking,
[SPEAKER_02]: then the reaction usually if it's a good if it's a person that has me that some work they'll be like you know they'll be not for me but thank you for your clarity for your transparency honestly good luck right
[SPEAKER_02]: which is fine, but it does waste time to go through a lot of people who don't necessarily read right off.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I've also had people who get angry, it's like, because I'm essentially, I'm not available to them because of this and there are kind of upset even that they are polyamorous people on the dating out.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a bit, it's kind of a scarcity mindset around having to lock down that person that is right for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So nobody else will have them.
[SPEAKER_02]: which in polyamory we don't do.
[SPEAKER_02]: My journey was moving from the scarcity mindset to a more abundant mindset of just enough for everybody and it's great to share in terms of sharing a time and energy with different people and me finding somebody special unique doesn't exclude
[SPEAKER_02]: other people finding that way and I'm not worried that I'm not special just because she also has another partner because our time together is special and it's a guarded for that regardless of what she does with the rest of her time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think when I think about things like jealousy that often comes up when couples open up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never been very jealous even in another me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was kind of enjoyed where when men were searching with my partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: It felt kind of auditing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, so she's hot and in demand.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and I'm lucky that I have a connection with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I wasn't really worried, even though in the past, too long past, I was cheated on.
[SPEAKER_02]: with my first girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_02]: But even then, I don't remember being very upset that it happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was upset that she lied about it and didn't tell me.
[SPEAKER_02]: That probably said something.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I see a lot of people getting quite jealous and that being an embodied reaction of panic attack anxiety, freeze or fight or fight response around that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, clearly points out to some deep insecurities.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where I think a lot of the focus needs to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I find happens often in polyamory is that people are open to working on these issues in order to facilitate a smoother relational dynamical round.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that means, if I notice something is coming up in me, I don't just say, oh, it feels bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to stop what you're doing because I know logically that I also want to explore, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm opening up, it's worth my partner and for me to explore.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't say, you can do it only I will do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that will be polygamy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's not ethical.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the ethical part.
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically, it just means that if I'm noticing it, I need to go and work on that and find a therapist or find a group, a peer support group or something where I can start working on these insecurities and understand why they're there and find ways to self-regulate.
[SPEAKER_02]: often involving somatic practices, breath work exercises, trauma release.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can just talk about it in a calm, mature way and process together.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that takes time.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there's such beauty and beautiful kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: nuggets of wisdom and golden and just becoming a person that can handle these difficult things and talk about the difficult things.
[SPEAKER_02]: One thing I always think about is that our society is so focused on giving fast to the instant junk food style fixes to emotional problems and emotional challenges.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, you feel bad if you'll depressed, take some pills.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here in the UK, our health system is generally really good, but you also price to save money.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when somebody goes with any kind of mental health concerns, the first thing they try to give them is medication because that's cheaper than giving them a course of therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel that it's very important and it's the practice that the family is crucial in non-monova me to sit with the difficult feelings and learn to be okay with not feeling okay sometimes, not just look to distract myself or self-medicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the self-righteousness that comes at times with kind of having this idea that monogamy is the solution.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not doing this, you're a drunk and there's so many programming that can ever reaffirm that, right online that if your partner has emotions, even towards other people, when there's just emotional cheating things that I feel like you're sitting ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: for failure, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like because like attraction and emotions, like living in modern world is just such a common experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it puts people in the place of secrecy and kind of contributes to not having great communication.
[SPEAKER_01]: What they often see in many clients that they are at their place of, don't tell, don't say, don't tell a situation in the open relationship is often that one partner wants to remain in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to them, it feels like they are kind of a have to compromise.
[SPEAKER_01]: It becomes from the place of lack of
[SPEAKER_01]: having freedom because they love the partner and the other partner feels like they are responsible for regulating people of the partner's emotions and it's hard for them to talk about their joy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talked about kind of being intentional when you were talking about your journey of when to bring it up, how to bring it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the suggestions you have around that when people want to share about the other partner or the other experiences?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are practices that work for you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, my former own personal journey, I've been in several polyamorous relationships since that first one and somewhere very difficult and challenging.
[SPEAKER_02]: The one was very toxic and traumatic actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for the last eight years, I've been in long-term relationships that feel really healthy and supportive and where we have really good communication.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if they don't last, we can transform into friendship and stay in connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: For me being in somebody's life is what's important.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I find that I care for them and I appreciate them and I value what they bring to the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't need to hold on tight to someone if somehow if something is not compatible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's our sexuality, maybe it's our lifestyle, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think of relationship as successful just because we're together for a long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Success is more about what do we represent in each other life, what have we
[SPEAKER_02]: what legacy did we leave the other person.
[SPEAKER_02]: When it comes to sharing information, so different tactics of different, and I don't want to close strategies, but different ways of communicating will depend on what type of communicator you and your partner are.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are people who are roughly speaking, there are some people who can put in category of gessers or people who are very much
[SPEAKER_02]: anticipate your needs and if you grow up in an in an asshole where maybe your parents were like that or you need it because of emotional volatility, you need to anticipate their needs before they got upset or before they lost their temperate etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll become really good at this kind of empathetic listening and not having to communicate too clearly because you just anticipate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Often what you're anticipating is how to keep the person from getting upset or like, temperate.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you pacify them or you kind of give them what they need or what they want.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't lead into anger into a fight.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in that process, you kind of often abandon your needs and the self betrayal in that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But guessers will find it very difficult to have the direct communication of being kind of radically honest with each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have the askers who don't read about the languages necessarily, we don't participate, who are actually quite comfortable just when you can tell the person tells them what they need.
[SPEAKER_02]: But okay, what you told me now I know, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they also happy to ask for what they need.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes if you have a guess or an asker, like, together, it can create difficulties and figuring out how to share information, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: So figuring out what you are, what's going to go into what's happening, can it help communicate to your partner?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I like sharing information?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I like receiving information?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you'll find hopefully some common ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or you'll learn the other person's communication style.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you have like avoidance and anxious people because again, sometimes you, the way you say things or the timing, et cetera, can impact or kind of basically affect the person's response.
[SPEAKER_02]: And their response will affect how you then we have in a moment and whether you try it again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, I was with somebody who had a temper who had anger management issues and if she was tired or has a bit to drink, was anxious about something.
[SPEAKER_02]: She would have every action if I said something about say, and we're on a date or I had a date and it was very nice and I want to go on another date something.
[SPEAKER_02]: And other times where she was very happy and relaxed, she would have a different reaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I needed to basically figure out what sort of mood before talking, why before bringing this up, or risk a conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you came tricky, because it feels like walking on neckshows, when is it open to say it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also then started being selective in filtering.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's not so important to talk about it because I don't know if I'm going to second date or I don't really know what we're going to do yet on the stage.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll just talk about bringing it up when I really want to continue that relationship because it's worth the risk of turning into an onion.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that was an unhealthy ratio, but I would argue that if you're feeling like you're walking on hotels in any relationship, then it's an unhealthy relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you really either should walk away or go to a therapist, you should never feel fear bringing up any topic with an intimate partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is, you know, they may not like to hear it, but they can still
[SPEAKER_02]: Here you listen to you even if you don't agree by acting defensively or attacking because somebody shares your true their true for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's toxic in my view and it's I'm also like emotional kind of can be a emotional manipulation Especially if you know that person has like a people pleasing part or it's already hard for them to talk about what they need what they want
[SPEAKER_02]: So my, what I learned is to even if it's something that they're telling you coming and bringing to me and I maybe, that's what I'm happy to hear it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe, you know, and again, examples from the past is I have a date with my partner and the day before the day she calls me and called me and said, hey, this new person, I just started it and invited me to the birthday party, which is tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just invited me, you know, and do you mind if we change dates if we go on another time?
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, so they before, so it also means I will need to find something else to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I could be angry that she just, I don't know, prioritizing enough of her, but she's so easily can just change of her last minute that this other person is not considering it, you know, and didn't invite her in time, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's lots of things that could be angry about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then, other day, what I realized in the moment is first, not to react right away, it'd be like, okay, I'm not to something, or let me think about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just process it before I answer you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the process is basically, this is a new relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they haven't yet figured out how to communicate the most effectively, how to communicate around all the Amorias, well, and considering the other person.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I insist that she doesn't change her plans, she will probably say, note to them and then be with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I already know that this is not where she wants to be, I understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: She already made clear her choice, or her preference.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why would I want to be with somebody who is with me, but wishing there were somewhere else?
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no drawing that for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I only want to be with somebody with a hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where they want to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and also this flexibility means that, you know, I made myself sometimes in double book prefer to change because it's opportunity to see somebody that maybe otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to see.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's different reasons why I might ask for flexibility for my partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, by showing that this is how we do things.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're also introducing, I think, a healthy culture of negotiation of flexibility.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, ultimately, yeah, I think that works and that's what I did in that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can also talk about my feelings about it without making it a responsibility to appease me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not happy about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like the fact that I might stay home or have to figure out like a last minute plan, but that's my issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need to change your plans.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay for you to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: to your choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I might be grumpy tomorrow but I'll be okay the next day.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels it requires lots of emotional maturity, because it's easier for people to kind of in a way project blame on someone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes me feel certain away, but it seems like in this way it's an opportunity to kind of explore what's inside, regulate, and communicate their need.
[SPEAKER_01]: With sexual of a relationship on our key, it seems like there's not a kind of, I think that's a beauty of it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not a specific script.
[SPEAKER_01]: That fits all.
[SPEAKER_01]: How early do you recommend people to communicate?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the view.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have what that communication can look like.
[SPEAKER_02]: The issue of anarchy is actually a pretty simple concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a very short relationship, anarchy manifesto online.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can Google and read and it's a few paragraphs.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an easy to digest concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if somebody doesn't know what it is and they really did some of this profile or they hear about it on the first day, they can just go Google search read it and understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't necessarily point to what kind of relationship dynamic you will have.
[SPEAKER_02]: As I said, you can still choose to be sexually romantically exclusive, but it leaves room for when negotiating.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is no script.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you've listened to this as familiar with the concept of the relationship escalator.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is this idea that, yeah, that it's scripted for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's already the path is chosen once you start editing somebody.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything after that, as long as things go well, is going to be on this kind of escalator of events, activities, coming closer together, you know, going exclusive, having joined friends planning a wedding and each other and buying a house, all of that, having retirement plans.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if anybody at any point doesn't want one of those steps, it messes up the whole dynamic, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If all of a sudden one person doesn't want kids, but you want to go missing you, love each other, and you, everything else fits, but you know, you don't get, or you don't want to live together.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Grinschinsch, but I know that you really challenge us to not follow a script, and to just choose for ourselves what makes us happy, and what makes us so fearful, filled, and what works with a particular partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, maybe, in polyamory, it is quite
[SPEAKER_02]: possibility to say, I want to live with you because we're living together, but I want to co-parent with this person who is very independent from us to live alone, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But because you, my, my nesting partner, I live with doesn't want kids, then maybe we'll figure this out in a different way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's obviously quite challenging and requires a very high level of communication and of maturity, but it's possible in these people to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So by having this unscripted,
[SPEAKER_02]: open-ended possibility where we're kind of we're called on to be more responsible to be responsible for people's hearts, people's emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I make it any kind of decision that is for me, I still want to think how it impacts not just my partner,
[SPEAKER_02]: but also their partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in some cases, their partners are the partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for example, moving countries.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I have two partners and one of them is willing to move and you either know, it doesn't mean automatically one gets to be my primary.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I don't have, if I don't do hierarchy and I personally am not in a hierarchical relationship, I can talk more about my dynamic and I got to.
[SPEAKER_02]: It means that we're going to have some negotiation around how do we safeguard our connection and what is a, how can we adopt it?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it is such a beautiful way of looking at it and I think it can kind of be very reassuring to know that as you said, it's not like we're not going based on default, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to be communication about different parts.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a view that you have that the relation on anarchy and having the freedom of
[SPEAKER_01]: making choices.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's romantic partnership with people in your live sexual partnership and you said you're in a polyamorous relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us a little bit about that and you alluded to it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how you set up the structure is a different from relationship to relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I identify as solo polyamorous, which to me means, and there are lots of terminologies of people who had to come up with, because there wasn't a script.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's still easy to use a term, so other people understand where you are, and what you're looking for.
[SPEAKER_02]: So locally, I'm very often people who want to live alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: but want to be in deeply committed attach relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they have this relationship with themselves in terms of wanting some degree of freedom and autonomy and the being alone often gives you that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they develop relationships with different people and you can have multiple partners.
[SPEAKER_02]: My own situation is that since the eight years ago, where I think realized that I'd rather live alone and be solo polyamons.
[SPEAKER_02]: For most of the time, I had two or three after four partners at one time, a couple of years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a long-term partner now for seven years.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the moment, I have other connections or different dynamics that aren't necessarily not in the place where
[SPEAKER_02]: We would term it at partnership or commit the relationship, but it's definitely a emotional connection and care and friendship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I'm open and available to more relationships, but I don't force it and I'm not like looking for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very much whatever, if it happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if all that we are like, you know, good friends or lovers, then that's fine too.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it works, you know, logistically.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I was having say two or three or four relationships for me, there isn't a primary part of the reason, like one partner who is like somehow gets better or two over the others.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that speaks with things like time spent together, communication overall, and it means trying to be there when something, if I don't need something.
[SPEAKER_02]: But also, they have, they see other people, so I'm not the only emotional support to say for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's one thing that I think relationship, I know that you can bring is,
[SPEAKER_02]: your emotional support looks like multiple people in your life, not just your romantic partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: In another way, it's almost always the case that your romantic partner is also your emotional support.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also your best friend, it's also your activity partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this challenge is that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if my partner is available, I can go to a friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my intimacy with friends in terms of what we share is just as good or deep, sometimes even more than my romantic connections.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is such an interesting way of organizing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So getting support, I think, in this day and age, it's very helpful to have different communities and being able to access and showing up for them as we're living on their life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just, it can help people to have more enriched life, but here it's also the key is consentual, because what I see in dating apps when people, whether I have clients that they're a monogamous,
[SPEAKER_01]: They're finding someone to open relationship oftentimes what the experience is someone that has a relationship, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The primary relationship, and they're trying to be secretive about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like an unethical way of having the open relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know some people have reaction when we call it unethical, but I think when you're keeping a secret and violating a relationship agreement,
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fair to say, and sometimes people think about when you're in a polyamorous relation, you never experience cheating, which is not true, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: People can violate agreements all the time for different reasons, so not necessarily even for sexual connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for our audience, that they are seeking relationship, honor, what would you like them to know?
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I would like to know that it's a process of really discovering who you are deep inside of bringing up your insecurities, looking them, facing them directly and processing them and finding a way to communicate.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't mean you have to be healed to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It means that you need to be self-aware.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can find lots of different ways of
[SPEAKER_02]: dealing with a certain insecurity.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, you may be okay, philosophically, with the concept of nonmonautomy or polyamory, but you react when you see a partner kissing somebody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe it's okay if you know that they're doing it, just don't want to see it because that creates a reaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't mean you have to force yourself to be friends with your
[SPEAKER_02]: partners of the partner or what we call the metamorphor.
[SPEAKER_02]: As we have to hang out together all together and watch them, you may try it because you don't know how or what how you will react.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it doesn't work, if you're feeling no, this is like too much.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can just say to partner, I don't want to see it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, let's have a parallel dynamic where you go on your little dates, I go on my dates and then we come together and talk about we can share information, but I don't want to hang out with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe next year, maybe there are a few months I'll be more ready to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Once I've worked on my inner issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, note that you can have boundaries around a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really good to identify and be the one that upholds your boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't expect that that's your partner's job to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think often we, I see that a lot of them are not going best.
[SPEAKER_02]: It also in open dynamics or haven't maybe done that work is I somehow I expect my partner to just know my boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they don't, then my story is they don't love me enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't care about me enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why they can't.
[SPEAKER_02]: know that I have a boundary here, or that this is too hard for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, they're not mind readers.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you are the only person that knows your boundaries, know yourself, because your emotional reactions and can uphold the limit, your limits.
[SPEAKER_02]: So be very clear about it, learn how to communicate about it, and also invite your partner to have boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: If my partner said I don't have any boundaries, whatever you want, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really trust that because I think something will come up.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just means they haven't done the work yet to figure out what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: that is so true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, sometimes as we're moving forward, being in the new places, we discover parts of ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's part of becoming more of a emotionally aware person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm glad that you're kind of framing it or sharing with us that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have an emotion, but you're responsible for regulating it, managing it, and communicating it in effective way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for our equipment, many of our listeners, they want to know more about your practice and on your counselor, what are some of the places they can access your information?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I practice in the UK and London, where I see people as clients in person, both individuals, couples, sometimes triads to keep moving their relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also work with both monopomus and normal monopomus clients.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would general psychotherapy practice, but I also work in coaching specifically on either open relationships or dealing with the complex issues that arise out of polyamory practice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will work online, I see clients all over the world in private practice and that usually the first place is to go to www.webebsite.blv.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instagram is open-related and there is a lot of content about relationship dynamics, about expansive relationships, it also gets
[SPEAKER_02]: information on my website, beyond scheduling a session with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of articles that touch on all the things we've talked about today, including like how to process jealousy, what are the steps that are ideally would take when you open up a relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of really good information there, and there are also recorded workshops and other podcasts episodes, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of information that is accessible there.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then people who are in Europe I also offer workshops and sometimes there are nine often there are in person one thing that I do which is a good balance for the talk therapy is play fighting and body play workshops
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's quite dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not verbal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about finding your own physical limitations and expressing yourself and expressing consent through the bodies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also just this primal experience that's really, really seen a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can catalyze a lot of emotional change and movement.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do that in London and Brighton in the UK as well as events in Berlin and Amsterdam.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like such an interesting gathering.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is it non verbal?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it just the communication through your body?
[SPEAKER_02]: But we talk about the safety rules and about consent and everything, of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: But once you're actually active together, sparring, wrestling, playing, dancing together, you can express your physicality, whatever you choose.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a non-sexual space for the workshop.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, we kind of invited to be non-verbal.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you really communicate with the body and you are tuned to the other person's body.
[SPEAKER_01]: incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for all the wonderful work that you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate the openness you brought to the conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know as clinician it's hard to talk about our experiences because of the teaching we had, but I appreciate that you shared it in an intentional way so it would be helpful for others.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your time and it was a pleasure to have you on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: As we wrap up today's episode, I hope Roy's inside offer you a fresh lens through which to view connection, commitment and love itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Relationship Anarchy isn't about chaos, it's about choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: honesty and intention.
[SPEAKER_01]: And while it may not be the right fit for everyone, it does invite important questions that would be helpful for all of us to ask herself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Such as, what could your relationship look like if they weren't shaped by default assumptions?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you ever felt like traditional relationship models don't quite fit, what would it feel like to design something that truly does?
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to thank our sponsor Wifi for supporting this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wifi offers a beautifully real, sex positive look at ethical and monogamy centering intimacy, diversity, and emotional help truth over sensationalism.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're curious about how other couples are navigating these dynamics, check out their exclusive.kistalk content at yphi.vmg.studio and follow them on Instagram at yphi updates.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great way to expand your understanding and challenge all narratives around love, sex, and trust.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who might be curious about what's possible in relationships, because your support helps us keep these honest, expansive conversations going.
[SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, I'm Dr. Nazanim Ali and this is Sexology.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to Sexology Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: For more great content, visit www.sexologypodcast.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please be advised that information presented on this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health provider.