[SPEAKER_00]: Hey there, this is Sean.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's revisit some terms like rat and roll, rock and wood docking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they forgotten?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is the music translate?
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably not.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you tell me, Motley Cruz, the only glam metal band worth remembering?
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, you can't be serious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alrighty, what do you get when you take a Kruner, a metal guitar god, a wild man in drums, you mix it all together, a lot of vodka, a lot of cocaine, and a little bit of Freddy Kruber, what do you get?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, what are you getting?
[SPEAKER_03]: You get talking!
[SPEAKER_03]: My question to you today is, were they great or did they just get lucky?
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everybody to the surely you can't be serious podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are here talking about docking.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking with docking underlocking key.
[SPEAKER_01]: Underlocking key.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the second of two episodes that we're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: First episode we talked about rat and invasion of your privacy and we're comparing it to this album today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And before we really get going, I mean at the end of the episode we're going to tell you which one of these albums we think are the best of the two albums, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the last episode, we talked about kind of the the incestuous relationship of these two bands.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, two thirds of rat has played with Doc and at some point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you had mentioned, and you know, I told a story about Jake E. Lee, who had been a guitarist for rat, getting to leave that band to go play with Ozzy Osbourne.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you had mentioned this kind of interesting story about George Lynch trying out for the part, and Jake E. Lee trying out for the part,
[SPEAKER_01]: and how they were both just kind of talking together and then Aussie came by and said if you've got the part you blew your chance and it sounded like when we talked about the story that like it was like they both went in and you know on the same day both played their their addition and then they both left I found out in researching docking George Lynch had the job
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he got hired to be the guitarist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Went with the band, did sound checks with the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he was there and involved.
[SPEAKER_01]: And within just like, I don't know, three days a week, not very long.
[SPEAKER_01]: They decided they didn't want him anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: really right which is why that you know it's a terrible thing to say to somebody you've only just met you blew your chance but if it's a guy who like you I hired you and you were either so bad which you can't say that George Lynch was bad at his job
[SPEAKER_01]: it had to be his personality that they were saying now I saw something where it was like he was you know poor at the time and he had a job as a liquor delivery guy and so he had to have short hair and so the the story was that that Sharon Osborne didn't like his look
[SPEAKER_01]: didn't like the short hair and so she said I don't care if J. Keyley doesn't play as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got a better look.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna go ahead and call BS on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean if you get George Lynch's abilities on the guitar who cares if he's got short hair throw a wig on, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean give him the haircut from Jamal or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: right right what was what video was that that we were that you sent me where he's got the haircut of the guy who's saying never an extraordinary a lumol lumol not jumol i guess the cosmic show confused there for the guy who sings never did story right you had that haircut on which one I'm still at for who but yes yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the interesting thing, I totally agree with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's his personality.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's very unbending.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's very difficult.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's temperamental.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Ozzy did not have to put up with that crap.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's the other thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ozzy had shaved his head at this time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So pointing somebody out for having sure it short hair doesn't fly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we could have jumped into this album now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it before we do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to give a quick overview of this album under lock and key.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was docking third album.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think this album has something for everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got balance, you've got speed rock, and you've got to see sort of these mid-paced melodic rockers that we love from the sense it's straight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was, this was their biggest selling album, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or at least at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was their kind of, it was bigger than the previous two.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were building to this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had a live album, I think, that did really well, too, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: They did because they could no longer handle each other in the studio.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll talk about that, though.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: First song on the album is a song called Unchained the Night.
[SPEAKER_05]: I met all I was trying to find the wish and will
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I'm just gonna I'm gonna tell you like we're comparing this to Rat out of the gate By the way, it's the first time I've ever listened to this album.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no experience with this album at all Right, we decided to do this podcast on it and so and researching it's first time forty nine years old that I ever listened to this album and Out of the gate first song.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like this is gonna be better than rats
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it's a great melodic introduction.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can feel the build of a concert.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's about to happen slow, dark.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got some synthesizers going on, but it's not, it's not new wave kind of deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more like a orchestral backing to this kind of, I mean, these guys could have, you know, they could have done a song for like nightmare and upstairs.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll get to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when I listen to this song, first of all, to me this should have been a single.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a great song.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can feel that concert opener.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, this is a great concert opening song while I looked, and during the underlocking key tour, this was the concert opener, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fits, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Now we'll say, for me, in particular, like, I run to Party Rock.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's my, it's my go-to.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really like these guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like their songs.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like their music, but almost none of this is Party Rock.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's kind of a dark tone to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely a dark tone.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had a style that they were going for, you know, we talked about rat being a fashion band.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these guys were definitely married to a style.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were given their own spin on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to say about Don Dawkins' choice of hats.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about that in a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: the friend on the leather and all that other stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, it's just that Richie Cymbour can pull it off and don't dock and cannot pull it off.
[SPEAKER_01]: But all that aside, I love don't dock and's voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he has got a melodic voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that screamer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He can whale, but he's got some, he's got some, you know, cruner chops to him, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He does.
[SPEAKER_03]: No doubt about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, here's the interesting thing about Dundocking.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he, he can sing, he can't hit those note.
[SPEAKER_03]: He can climb and he can whale.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think he's taken very good care of his voice over the years.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's very gravely.
[SPEAKER_03]: He sounds like he's smoked a lot of cigarettes.
[SPEAKER_03]: The problem is that George Lynch was like a bodybuilder at one time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he looks still cut up and he looks forty and he's nearly seventy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I've got the backstory on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to tell you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got some fun stuff for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in nineteen seventy six, Don Dawkins starts this band called Airborne.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now within this band, you have one, Kruse A, who played for a course later, Lanson Ratten plays on an invasion of your privacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they had added Bobby Blotzer, who delivered a pizza.
[SPEAKER_01]: One day.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell that story again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no Bobby Blotster.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he was a drummer, but he was like every other drummer on the cent stretch set strip.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was poor as dirt and livin' in a rat hole.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, delivering pizzas and he delivered the pizza to the place that Don Dockon was practicing with his band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he sees the drum set.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, you know, I play drums.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, oh, yeah, let's see what you can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Week later, he's in the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, our drummer is out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are in.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, here's the interesting thing to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, in this band, you've got, like I said, Juan Cruz C. A. Bobby Blitzer, both guys ended up in a rat.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was another band at the time named Airborne, who had a record deal, so they had to ditch the Airborne name.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Air with an A. He, like, a aerosmith kind of deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, during this time, they had Greg Leon and Gary Holland.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those guys were in a band called Sweet Nineteen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sweet Nineteen had a drummer, he may have heard of.
[SPEAKER_03]: His name was Tommy Lee.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a lot of incestuous recruiting, adding, you know, building.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nikki Six has been in the mix with them at some point, you know, yes, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they toured Germany in the nineteen seventy nine and they met up and coming producer Michael Wagner who had worked with the band except.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so let me tell you about Michael Wagner, like he had been in this band, and then he gets called, he gets drafted into the West Berlin Army, and it makes it hard to practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, Army.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when he finishes his military service, that's how he starts working in production.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gets a job with an audio studio, and that's where he meets Don Dockin, and because of Don Dockin, he moves out to L.A.
[SPEAKER_01]: and produces that first album with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: really.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Don Dockon is probably a large reason that he got his kind of introduction to bigger bands, but the bigger bands are pretty impressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was the one who produced Skid Row Skid Row.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I had forgotten about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was, so we talked about him back when we did our Skid Row versus as a doctor feel good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that we
[SPEAKER_01]: did that when he was getting over stuck feeling that's okay yeah and then he also mixed master puppets not too shabby what and engineered the single version of Janet Jackson's black cat so he's he's got a whole rain how about that that crazy black cat known to be Janet Jackson's rock song
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and known to be Michael Wagner's pop song.
[SPEAKER_03]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Michael Wagner obviously German.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So here's an interesting story for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, Greg Leon leaves Docan or Don Docan.
[SPEAKER_03]: To replace Randy Rhodes in quiet riot because Randy Rhodes had left quiet riot to join Ozzy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: He dies.
[SPEAKER_03]: He died in a tragic plane crash.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: Greg Holland left Don Dockon to join a band called Dante Fox.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about because that Dante Fox band later became great white.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, one crusade came back to Dockin.
[SPEAKER_03]: And during this time, they go to Germany in nineteen eighty one to secure this record deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, Don can't go without a guitarist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he needs a drummer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he goes and he talks to George Lynch and Mick Brown, who had been in Exciter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exciter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It also been in a band called The Boys, which I saw like Van Halen actually opened for The Boys at one point.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, here's a story on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to tell you the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, George Lynch, everybody, you know, wants to say that he stole Eddie Van Halen's style, you know, and that speed metal stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they were really contemporaries on the L.A.
[SPEAKER_01]: scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: But throw back to our Van Halen episode from season one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: The boys were supposed to have a showcase for Gene Simmons because Gene Simmons was looking for a new band for his new record label.
[SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately for the boys,
[SPEAKER_01]: Van Halen opened up for them that night and Gene Simmons was like, I don't need to see the second band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is how you get him producing their first basically demo album out in Europe.
[SPEAKER_01]: How about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when Don goes, let's and don't let Van Halen open for you on your showcase exactly, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So when Don goes to talk to George Lynch and Mick Brown, he's like, Hey, I've got this thing happening in Germany, Anita Gatorrest, Anita Drummer, but what I really am interested in is this song you guys used to sing in your band called Paris's Burning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this is where it gets really murky.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you've got two people actually you've got three people who have absolutely opposing opinions of what happened and what transpired.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Don says I went to George and I said I would like to record your song, Paris is burning.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: And George said, well, I mean,
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't really play that song anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in another band and that's kind of old and that's not really happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, just keep me informed of what's going on with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's Don's version.
[SPEAKER_03]: Making George are like, Don stole our song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like he just took it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is the beginning of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Deving Don stole our song and we freaking hate that guy from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_03]: From the outset.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they do go on to play it.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, let's listen to it here.
[SPEAKER_06]: Why do you seem fun?
[SPEAKER_01]: That song begins with a solo, again, very eruption by Ivan Halen, but moves into something that's entirely different.
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw George Lynch talking about that first album, and how he was like, you know, we had this great sounding album that was like a throwback to the seventies, had all the right sounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we left and behind her back, Don Dockon like comes in and his adeva and turns his vocals way up too loud, which suppresses everything else and makes it just sound like a mushy mess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Don Dockon says George Lynch wasn't even in the band at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hired George Lynch from Exciter for twenty five hundred bucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: The albums first pressing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Don Dawkins.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not the Bandokins.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Don Dawkins.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don Dawkins.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were playing on my CD.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were a band and I went behind their backs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were hired guns and that's how they got involved with the album at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: The lots of crazy stories with these guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go into the next song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next song in the album is a song called The Hunter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, do you have you listened much, Dio?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, to me, I mean, just as a guy who doesn't have experience with Doc and he has a very, runny James Dio sound to his voice.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which, Jeff Wilson, play bass for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: would then go on later on to play for Ronnie James deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually got a story on that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a docket story, but it's a Jeff Wilson story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Drop it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he's like, he's at his house and Ronnie and I don't remember who the other guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of his other bandmates just knocks on his door and he's like, he opens the door and he's like, he knew him because they had toured together, like they toured with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, hey, Ronnie, what's up?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, okay, so like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Jimmy hasn't shown up at the studio for like three days.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know anybody who would want to play based on this album with the word that we're recording?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, yeah, me, I would love to play based for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, but I've got this issue with my sprinklers and they won't work and
[SPEAKER_01]: Ronny Dio is like, let me see what I can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fifteen minutes later, he has the sprinkler system fixed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so basically, he fixes the sprinkler system.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff Pilsson then goes with them, records, and they're like, you're great, come tour with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's in the band for the next four years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it, just like that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine Ronny Dio is in your yard, you know, on his knees, digging through the, fixing sprinklers?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's just crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: No problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a shovel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a screwdriver.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get this fit.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this song, this is the first single for this album.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's released December tenth, nineteen eighty five, it reached number twenty five on the mainstream rock chart.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a mid tempo rocker.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's melodic.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's got a great chorus.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've started off bang bang for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Got two great songs right after that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk about the video.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is the era before they really figured out the music video.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You think they figured it out?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they in the larger sense figured it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that Doc and had not yet figured it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because videos were of much better quality by this time in history, but they were still making videos like it was nineteen eighty-two.
[SPEAKER_03]: They, yes, they were.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I watched this video, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you've got the guys walking the streets of L.A.
[SPEAKER_03]: So far so good.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're showing the gritty streets, whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you have this weird scene where Jeff Pilsen is like being pursued by like rednecks with coondogs, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like chasing him through the woods.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like
[SPEAKER_01]: What does this have to do with nothing about somebody so twilight zone the night before they made the video and they're like, hey, I got an idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: You do have the LA tunnel where the we're terminator was shot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they pull out the red Magnum PI Ferrari that looks friggin fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I wanted to get back to what was happening in Germany.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Don Dockan goes over to Germany, and he meets Michael Wagner.
[SPEAKER_03]: Things are not happening in LA, and so he up and moves to Germany.
[SPEAKER_03]: I sent you a trivia question today.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, what is the surely you can't be serious song that we have covered on Patreon?
[SPEAKER_03]: The Don Dockan Hates.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, answer is my Shorona.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I said so he has terrible taste in music right now but I mean it was a it was a different sound than the doc and sound for sure but I don't understand how it ruins the music scene for years so I saw him talking about this he said that overnight rock
[SPEAKER_03]: went uncool and like nerdy pop new wave was like the hot new thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, Don, I think he's got a tendency to embellish and overstate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at the time, I did at least cause him to say, forget this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to Germany.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's worked out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it did, it did.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, of course, he takes George Lynch and Mick Brown with him, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: And Juan Crusoe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, while in Germany, he's over there, and Klaus Meina, for the scorpions, is having a vocal issue.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the scorpions are not sure if he'll be able to sing anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you imagine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: So they bring in Don Dockin to maybe take over for class minor in the scorpions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he does some demos with them as the scorpions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, of course, class recovers and it's all fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he actually does end up singing back up on the album Blackout.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Don Dockin sings back up vocals on the scorpions album Blackout.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, blackout, I saw that he had, he said that they were, you know, called them the rough tracks or whatever the rough vocals, where he would just, and he said he kind of just did it as a favor for class because he didn't have any great expectation that he would be in the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was just like, they needed someone to do the singing parts until class got back, hoping that class was going to get back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, there you go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: While they're over there, Georgian Mick are sitting around doing nothing while dancing and with the scorpions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so they become studio musicians for Udo Lindinburg.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I don't know a lot about him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gathering and just from the looks of it, he kind of looks like the German version of Mick Jagger or David Bowie.
[SPEAKER_03]: He just kind of an older rocker who needed some guys playing guitar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so they're like, well, we're here.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got our guitar, we're, you know, we're available.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those guys benefited from the trip to Germany as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now then, they come back to the States and they take Michael Wagner with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they go back and they sign with Cliff Bernstein, who is with Q prime management.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember who we talked about with them, but I do remember talking about them beforehand.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those guys represent a death leopard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was it then.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is a big thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw George Lynch talk about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: He said we went from being a mediocre band to being a big-time band mainly because cube management was pushing us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, it's not the first time we've heard that story, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you gotta go get better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the first song that they released right out of the gate is a song called Break in the Chains.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a fantastic song.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great video to go with it, too, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the video, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very literal, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: They're all like... George Lynch's got the chains on his guitar.
[SPEAKER_01]: And before we get too far away from the origin story of George Lynch, you know, we mentioned that he was with Mick Brown in the boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I sent you a text today because they had two lead singers, a man and a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: The man's name was Greg Sanford.
[SPEAKER_01]: The woman's name was Lisa Firstbanker.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe the best last name I've ever heard Lisa Firstbanker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lisa Firstbanker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, whatever happened to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but I hope she had a boy.
[SPEAKER_03]: No kidding, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Don talked about how breaking the chains was what they called a passive radio hit.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what that means is that radio played the heck out of it, but it didn't sell a lot of albums.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is kind of a success and kind of a failure too.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, do you remember we talked about Allen Niven when we talked about Great White?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Allen Niven was a record producer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, Don Dockon talked Alan Niven into going to see this band called Dante Fox.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Alan Niven went in and was like, no, no, thanks.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Don Dockon's like, well, no, go again.
[SPEAKER_03]: These guys are really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go check him out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, we talked about this in our great white episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dante Fox ultimately becomes great white.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he goes back a second time and he sees him and he's like, nah, not for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Don's like, I'm coming with you on this third time because you're missing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when he went and saw the third time, of course, magic happened on course song that they did was what's interested.
[SPEAKER_03]: At that moment, great white as we know it was born.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks to Don Dawkins.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go back and check out our twice shy episode where we covered great white.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, before we go any further, let's go to the next song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next song in the album, Big Hit song.
[SPEAKER_03]: This song is called In My Dreams.
[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Dan Huff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So many times over the years, you have huffed me and finally had the opportunity to huff you back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't been huffed in a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, the band giant.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was see you in my dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: One giant song from ninety ninety.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great song.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you in my dreams in my giant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, we covered that one in our Patreon as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for those of you who don't know that see you in my dreams is a favorite song of
[SPEAKER_01]: Jason's in the band, Giant and he would sneak it in and every opportunity is along with Dan Huff who has played brilliant, brilliant guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's played on a bajillion albums that he had produced a bunch more fantastic guy, but I go back and check out our Patreon page because you would get to hear that episode, but she don't get to hear unless you are a Patreon member.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're missing out on Giant and Dan Huff and see you in my dreams.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're missing out on a ton of other stuff as well, go to patreon.com slash surely podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sign up for free.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pay little as five bucks a month to get access to all of our prior one hit wonder episodes, which are some of our best.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't forget to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, back to the actual in my dreams song that we're here to talk about the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here is Docan.
[SPEAKER_04]: Your love is strong, it still remains
[SPEAKER_01]: So now as I mentioned, I didn't listen to Doc and in my high school days, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: At all, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe unless, you know, just they were on MTV while I was doing something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I heard this song, and I was like, I know this song.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know this song, and the answer is, I didn't listen to Doc and but it did listen to the party from the new Mickey Mouse Club.
[SPEAKER_01]: Had a total crush on Tiffany Hale, got a rest of her soul.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just found out about her passing terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, I probably very much knew the party version of this song.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's listen to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We listen.
[SPEAKER_01]: He brought us here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's listen to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: We must stop this crap immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to tap into the boy band craze that was hitting in the early nineties, late eighties early nineties, like new kids on the block, the new Mickey Mouse club decided to put together a not even just a boy band as a boy and girl band, but took some of their
[SPEAKER_01]: older, more attractive, mosquitoes, and made the party.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how they chose to do a dock and song from nineteen eighty five.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this song by docking charted at seventy seven on the hot one hundred.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the party version charted in the top forty at number thirty four.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, uh,
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, now the rest of the story is if you go look at Spotify, Docan has eight hundred and ninety five thousand followers.
[SPEAKER_01]: The party has five thousand followers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it tastes, you know, at certain points in history, it's some things prove themselves out better than others.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a great song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the second single.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you said, number seventy seven on the hot one hundred.
[SPEAKER_03]: Number best song in the album me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm spike in the football.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is best song.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's truly a great doc and song.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there is one song, this better.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk about that here in a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I love the, you know the drama behind this song?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, tell me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Don Doc and writes this song while on a beach in Mexico.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's just him, the sand, the surf, and his acoustic guitar.
[SPEAKER_03]: and he's out on the beach one night and he's just looking at the sunset thinking man this is just so beautiful it's like a dream out here okay so he just starts to kind of strum his acoustic guitar he kind of have a knack for coming up with courses right yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: So he comes up with this great chorus, takes about forty minutes according to him to just write this song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: When he brings it back to the guys from Mexico, George Hates, hates it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not playing that stupid song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yes, you are George because it's a good song and we're playing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're putting it on the record.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So George says, I am not
[SPEAKER_03]: not playing guitar on this song and does like fine I'll play guitar on this song because he can play yeah so George is like fine I'll play guitar well then he plays it but he plays it poorly on purpose like he's sabotaging the song and does like freaking screw you George if you can't do it right I'm taking over so ultimately they push each other and they got it done and it goes on to become like a docking classic but the whole time George was like this song sucks I'm not playing it
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's more melodic than most of the other stuff on the album.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to say this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, George Lynch's guitar skills are incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're outlier level, but quite frankly, it's not Roquetschi.
[SPEAKER_01]: His guitar solo is not one that you're going to hum along to do with Hotel California or any Jimmy Page solo or any
[SPEAKER_01]: Jimmy Hendrick solo like that just I mean even even Eddie Van Halen with his speed had a melody to what he was playing Kurt Hammett it's the same thing but I don't know George Lynch's stuff is just like a lot of notes all together that fit but just agree it's not singable when you watch him climb and tap and do it's absurd it's absurd it's what what he does is amazing to look at but it doesn't make my heart sing
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk about this video for just a second.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is without a doubt.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they're most ridiculous video.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's done Dawkins favorite though.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: He said he really likes the energy of this video.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he's got his, you know, he's got his hat on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's got his hat on and he's got this leather jacket that's got all these tassels and and it's like pouring down rain.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's swinging his arms and tassels going everywhere and it's pouring down rain.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's
[SPEAKER_03]: It looks like it's made with two BCRs.
[SPEAKER_03]: You remember the old two BCRs?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to watch, you know, George is playing guitar.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody wears gloves.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's, they look like batting gloves to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, why do you guys have batting gloves on?
[SPEAKER_03]: So the video is goofy.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's raining and they're, but not in a good way.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just looks terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not in a good way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where you can actually see the faucet head over.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, now you should like showering.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, but I do think that this song is a truly great doc and song.
[SPEAKER_03]: It really is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, is this the video where, like, at the end, it's a split screen and the woman is holding a paper.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, that was breaking the chains.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you know the story on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell me about the woman in the video of breaking the chains.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I'm not, I may be, I may be mixing my stories here, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I am pretty sure they, they, like, met this girl, like, they're having a pre-party or whatever it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was Italian.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was trying to get, have them tell her how to say, you know, hello, how are you and like a cool swab, you know, you know, slang kind of way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Dawn tells her, you say, I'm a swala.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's, and he's, tell them, I'm a swala.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like a swala.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, yeah, like a bird, like a swallow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell them, I'm a swallow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody says that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's walking around the party saying, I'm a swallower.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I'm right, she's the girlfriend of the director of the video.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're, you're mixing your stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, anyway, that's a good story, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, so Alan Arkish is the one who directed the break in the chains video.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he wants his girlfriend in the video.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not that good looking.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she is, she's not.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's just not.
[SPEAKER_03]: She looks like she left the gym and needs to go fix her hair.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't kick her out of my bed for eating crackers.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I wouldn't put her in a music video.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right, that's right, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, they're like, no, we can't, you're not going to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, what Alan, who, I mean, at that point, he had directed like rock and roll high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you saw that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: With the Ramones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because he, that was the other stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had done Ramones videos.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and not even mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I don't want to interrupt your bet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep in mind, rat is, they have Tony contain.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then this is like the director's girlfriend No, yeah, no bad idea, but they tell him no and then they see the video and he is basically snuck in recorded her and then done a split screen.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like
[SPEAKER_03]: She's doing stuff until I was terrible.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess we can't totally blame the bad videos on the band.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that was eighty-two.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was eighty-two when they were hiring guys who had done a bad Ramon's movie or a Bud Light commercial the day before, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm glad that you threw back the break in the chains because I've got a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to tell you about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the record company only produced one hundred thousand copies of their EP.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when that sold out, they were not going to produce anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was going to be the end of Dockon because the record company just that did not believe in these guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: They had a great song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Radio played it a lot, but people didn't buy the record.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, it didn't work out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, Don says wait, guys, listen.
[SPEAKER_03]: We showed you we can write hits.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just going to give us one more chance.
[SPEAKER_03]: We just got to have one more chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he begged them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's why they call the next album.
[SPEAKER_01]: to the nail.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the full story on that is they had gone out and they had toured.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and they had, they were doing very well on their tour.
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't do super great on the album sales.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they had done very well on their tour and they had the same thing that happened to Van Halen.
[SPEAKER_01]: They get back from this tour where they've been bigger and bigger and bigger shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the record company has, like, guys, that was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: you almost paid for the album you only owe us three million dollars.
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which I mean, I was thinking about that because we were talking about that today because album sales used to be the driving factor for record companies and money and ultimately bands, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's who would pay that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now it's the concerts because everything's available for free basically on YouTube or a ten dollar subscription on Spotify.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's going out and buying twelve dollar albums anymore except for you know you've vintage heads out there hikersweber and
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for our wool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love you, Chris Weber.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you see those tickets from back in like, nineteen eighty two and it was seven dollars and fifty cents to see rat, motley crew and docking on the same bill right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, but now it's a hundred and fifty dollars for the nosebleeds of a gigantic arena.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have ticket steps in my Jordan stairs.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bon Joven Skid Row, twenty three fifty and I thought
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, that's kind of fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the next album is tooth and nail.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, this is where they get Cliff Bernstein producing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about him with Q prime management.
[SPEAKER_03]: They want an A list producer for tooth and nail.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so who do they get?
[SPEAKER_03]: They get the hot new producer Tom Worman who had just had Motley Cruz big album, their breakthrough album, shout at the devil.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Motley crew comes out of the gate with this massive album shout out the devil.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of a hair metal game changer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe the greatest hair metal album of all time.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got to cover it at some point.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they respond with, we hate Tom Warman.
[SPEAKER_03]: The band, like Docan, they can't stand the guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why?
[SPEAKER_03]: So here's the story.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, they all hate each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're toxic personalities.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I heard Jeff Pilson talking about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when Tom Wormman actually, he talked about how they got along great until kind of the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Don Docket was working on his vocals and Tom Wormann was working with him and they were trying to do it and it just wasn't happening and finally, Tom Wormann had to say, you know what, this is just gonna work, but I have an idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jeff Pilsen, you're in the band.
[SPEAKER_03]: You want a people producer, eventually?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why didn't you sit with Don and work at the vocals?
[SPEAKER_03]: So Jeff was like, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so they did, and it worked, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Bandmate basically led the other bandmate into singing, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: Now then, the story with George Lynch is amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know this one?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the studio, they had this other guy who was one of the engineers for tooth and nail is this guy named Jeff Workman.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had worked on the mix for Bohemian Rhapsody, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Very talented, very gifted engineer, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He was also a cook addict.
[SPEAKER_03]: and another toxic personality.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one of the things that he did, I don't know Jeff feels to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that he did was he would record the conversations that Tom Wormman had in the like in the booth, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's this crazy, it's this wacko story of him setting up sound equipment to record his boss saying things during the course of whatever, whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he would go home at night and he would edit that to make it and say awful things, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so Jeff Pilsen's like, listen, I'm partially responsible because I knew he was doing it and I knew it was going to be supposed to be kind of a practical joke, but he goes, but I also knew George wouldn't take it well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and so Jeff workman made it sound like Tom Mormon, and I'm reading between the lines here a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Had sexual feelings for George Lynch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So keep in mind, this is all behind Tom Mormon's back.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so Jeff workman is playing this for George Lynch going, listen to what he said about you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now Jeff Pilsson's like, we were using tapes.
[SPEAKER_03]: You could clearly hear that we were editing works together.
[SPEAKER_03]: He goes, I thought he would understand that we were joking.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, guess what?
[SPEAKER_03]: George did not get the joke.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was funny at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one day Tom Warman's listening to George's solo and he says, you know George, you're a really good guitarist, but that's just not very melodic.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you work on something and make it a little more melodic?
[SPEAKER_03]: And let's come up with something better.
[SPEAKER_03]: And George blew his...
[SPEAKER_03]: So he throws his guitar and he's like, that's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't take it anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, Wormann actually says, you know, through the callback that in George, I can see you're very unhappy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Would you like to come in here and hit me?
[SPEAKER_03]: And George, he said, George declined.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Tom Wormann's like, I can't.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm out.
[SPEAKER_03]: See you guys later.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so Michael Wagner had to come in and finish the mixing for to the nail because Tom Mormons like got to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Tom Mormon, well, he did a lot of stuff, but he goes on to do the musical direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe for a
[SPEAKER_01]: movie that they're making based on the Judas Priest story called Metal God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the in the story, it's this guy who gets the job to replace the lead singer who's in some tribute band to the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just like the Judas Priest story.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just ultimately they decide, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: the band that Judas Priest the band was not happy with how things were going and so they're like okay we'll pull it back and we'll make it more general and instead of naming the movie metal god and starring Brad Pitt which was the initial plan what they made it rock star starring Mark Wahlberg yeah so yeah metal god became rock star to give have a broader audience appeal
[SPEAKER_01]: and Tom Wormen being the guy who's in charge of the musical direction and also involved heavily with the rest of the reduction is like, hey, you know, I know guys who are actual musicians who would be great to come in and play some parts in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he gets Zach Wilde.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Play guitar.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jason Bonham to play the drums and Jeff Pilsen to play the bass.
[SPEAKER_03]: How about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you guys watch the watch the movie Rockstar, those are the guitarist, the drummer and the
[SPEAKER_01]: bass player are all actual musicians.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, next song of the album is a song called Slip In Away.
[SPEAKER_03]: skaters moved to the center of the rink yeah yeah i i think i could have made out to this in nineteen eighty five pretty sure i'm really i'm pretty sure i could have okay i was i was nine going on to eighty five so i wouldn't make it out with anybody yet
[SPEAKER_03]: maybe eighty six.
[SPEAKER_03]: But so to me, this is their attempt to recreate the magic that was alone again.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was a swing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was a miss.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is your saccharine ballad on the album.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's any great ballads on this album, but there was on tooth and nail.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I want to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: During the course of writing to The Nail, To The Nail has a few big hit songs, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: They've got a song called Into The Fire, they've got a song called Just Got Lucky, and then they've got another song called Alone Again.
[SPEAKER_06]: Now the truth, they fall on the plate of the love of you, the love of you, the love of you, the love of you,
[SPEAKER_01]: I set it in our rat episode, and I'll say it again, when the hard rock and heavy metal band breaks out the twelve string of the piano, it's time for powerbellet.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a great one.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great tune.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, alone again, was the song that pushed docking up from just another band with some songs and some videos to next level.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's when they went up a notch, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the funny thing is, is that George Lynch hated that song as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and literally that when you talk about docking songs, that's in your top five of which maybe that might be number one biggest docking song.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it goes on to become this massive hit, third single.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, Don was trying to sell it to the guys, he's like, guys, listen, this is the time when people expect you to write a solid ballad.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's another, that's a song that can sell another million copies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And turns out, Don was right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, and I mean, this in addition to all of the other fights that these guys have, I think this is kind of a major point of contention, especially as the band progresses and we get to the nineties that Don wants to
[SPEAKER_01]: become more radio friendly, more melodic, more, I don't want to say pop, but closer to pop than they've been, and George is wanting to push the envelope in the other way and be even less melodic, which this album, just throw the idea out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously they've got Michael Wagner back, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so he's done all these great metal albums, but they also have producing a guy named Neil Kernan.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's got a whole slew of things, but his big, like his most important deal was, in eight, eighty, eighty, one, and eighty, two, the Holon Oats, albums, voices, privatized, and H-to-out, like, changed their career trajectory, were huge pop.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: talk about Kruner that kind of music and so I can see you know like they're this push to try to get a little more of a little more of the radio friendly ideal for this metal band and I can see George is just fighting tooth and nail against it on that note yeah let's go to the next song okay next song in the album is a song called lightning strikes again
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is definitely an answer to that last song.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: A George Lynch answer to the Don Dawkins song.
[SPEAKER_03]: They let George off the leash on this one.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, I mean, you still have a great course.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a hard, more energetic rocker.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's solo, man.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is a face melter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, still not melodic though.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not melodic.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's blazing speed metal that you just kind of, it's fast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look at it, go by.
[SPEAKER_03]: What was it, was it, I can't remember if we talked about it on Van Halen, but there's a difference between playing a melodic solo and what they call wanking off.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you say George Lynch is a wanker.
[SPEAKER_01]: He likes to wank off a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, who doesn't, but I mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he does, he does it all over the album.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like this one.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a hard rocker.
[SPEAKER_03]: Most of the time, those are a little bit too much for me, but I think it's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so far, I'm on board with the exception of slipping away, which was kind of a miss ballad.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought for side one is great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hit stop on your tape player.
[SPEAKER_03]: Kick it out, flip it over.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go to side two.
[SPEAKER_03]: We start off what I think is the best song in the album.
[SPEAKER_03]: This song is called, It's Not Left.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I can see why you love this song because this is very Banjovi-esque.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I heard this song and I'm like this sounds like the beginning of bad medicine and I realize it predates bad medicine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I at this point fully believe that John Banjovi and Richie Sambora listened to the dock and we're like, hey, we could do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just switch it up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but all that being said, I don't follow you at all for picking this as the best one.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely a
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a jammer man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see this one being like, they've played their whole set.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Cleveland.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good night.
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody's like, oh my God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the crowd just goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the course of this song not only is it melodic, but it's also the crowd can sort of chant it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's not love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'd love this one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk about the video.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, this is the third single off the album, third and final single.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was released June of eighty six.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now this video, I told you, I called you this week and I said, this is like you two's where the streets have no name.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you'll remember in that video, they're on top of a warehouse and they start a concert.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And docket is just to remind our audience the where the streets have no name is the rooftop video where they actually perform in the rooftop and it starts off with the the cops saying you guys got to get yourselves out of here and they managed to sneak in wanted to which of course that was totally stolen from the Beatles so so this you can say since it predates it this is their version of the Beatles this never has to song okay for life performance
[SPEAKER_03]: So instead of being on top of a warehouse or a store or whatever it is, they rent like a flat bed trailer on like an AT Wheeler truck, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they've got the drums and you've got the guitar and they've got speakers and they're driving around the streets of LA.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget the driver.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, good gracious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the, from the ground shot of her climbing into the big rig with her, but dunk a, but dunk a booty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, holy smoke.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those were some sprayed on jeans right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was glorious.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a glorious time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they're driving around LA.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can actually see you see gizaris.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: You see tower records, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just the sunset strip now.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to point something out to you, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: George has a couple of very identifiable guitars that he plays.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of them is what they call the Tiger Stripe guitar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's from the earlier like breaking the chains and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: In this video, he's got a special made skeleton guitar.
[SPEAKER_03]: He plays it in the Dream Warriors video, which we'll talk about here in a second.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know his name for that guitar?
[SPEAKER_01]: do but I can't remember it tell me he calls it mom mom that's right right now what kind of growing up did he have
[SPEAKER_03]: The skeleton guitar, which I, as a kid, I thought, man, that is the coolest guitar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was created by George's neighbor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you hear this story?
[SPEAKER_03]: It was J. Frog, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: J. Frog?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Johnny Garcia.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: They call him J. Frog.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was a Hollywood special effects guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: He carved it from solid maple.
[SPEAKER_03]: He even added his own tooth to the skull in this guitar, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: How did it get his tooth?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just report the news.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: That guitar is now in New York City's hard rock cafe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's on display.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now in, I sent you and James Buckley this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I'm just watching this video and the crowd is gathering and people are cheering and having fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is as close to party rock as duck and kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I told you guys, I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: the Brawless Beauty who jumps Don Dawkins' bones at the end of this video.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just harkens back to a wonderful time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's everything that made me want to be a rock star.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to say more.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wowsers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next song.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next song in the album is a song called Jaded Heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just say, I love my twelve string power ballots.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, give me when the children cry, give me one a dead or live.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I love them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is a mystery.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a good song.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a, it's like multiplicity when you get the copy of a copy of a copy.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the one with a boot on its head.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was an attempt.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's got some similarities, but overall it just isn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next song in the album is a song called Don't Like to Me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I like this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is absolutely a Redeemer for the last one.
[SPEAKER_01]: No question about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very scorpions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here I am, rock me like a hurricane.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would fully believe that George Lynch lifted, if not the cords, the kind of pacing and style of that song from the scorpions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I have heard him, like they asked him, I can't remember what the doc and song was, but they were like, I tell us about this one, he's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I was listening to Judas Priest and this was this I absolutely stole this from heads are gonna roll.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember what the dog and tongue is, but I mean, he like every other artist that we've talked about heavily borrowed from other folks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this the point in the podcast where we talk about Nightmare and Elm Street?
[SPEAKER_03]: Nightmare and Elm Street three dream lawyers.
[SPEAKER_03]: There we go, all right, which I believe to be the second best nightmare in Austria, right, in the original.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the video for Dream Warriors, there's a spot where George is supposed to come crashing through the wall, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like reminiscent of a scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: And who's the actress that was in Trisharket.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Trisharket is supposed to be their screaming or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's in true romance.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't even think about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's in true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we talked about her on a true romance versus natural born killers episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: How does a freaking firecracker?
[SPEAKER_01]: Both in the late eighties and the early nineties.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I have a couple of stories here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one, first let's just talk about George Lynch, all right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we've talked about him plenty, but Jeff Pilsson talks about the first time that he met George Lynch.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was playing in a cover band, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the guys from Dockner needing a base player.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they're going to come listen to him play.
[SPEAKER_01]: And before the show, he knows that what they're coming for, but he's like, hey, guys,
[SPEAKER_01]: other guys in the band.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't really know about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we could keep it, you know, quiet, that'd be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said George really can't handle his alcohol very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like halfway into the show, he has bombed out of his mind literally screaming to the entire place.
[SPEAKER_01]: This bass player's bad ass.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna steal him from this band.
[SPEAKER_01]: Later.
[SPEAKER_01]: George is based.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the day they met.
[SPEAKER_01]: George is face down in Jeff Pilsson's front yard in a pool of his old food.
[SPEAKER_01]: His vomit, his former
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is a photo out there that Jeff's girlfriend took of him with like coffee and a piece of burnt toast holding it over a George Lynch face down on the lawn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so by the time he had Nightmare in Elm Street money, he had graduated up to cocaine on a pretty heavy scale.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had, you know, as the Coke addicts do, basically quit eating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's supposed to bust through this wall and he's like, this is a wall that like an infant should be able to bust through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's made to be bust because I was so high and so weak.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't bust through the wall, which if you look at the rest of the video, you see him laughing.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's laughing at himself at how bad a shape he is in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now,
[SPEAKER_01]: The rest of the story, the one I called you about, and I was like, do you know this story?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, no, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, don't, don't research it, because I get to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he wasn't the only one at the set who was doing cocaine back in the late eighties.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we know that he kind of hooked up with Patricia Arcade later on, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: There was something right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was something that happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Robert England was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: and he had some cocaine and they literally did coke off of Freddy's knife fingers.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said they cut it and then they used it like a spoon to sniff it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you got to say at that point in history, I'm going to drink more of your three.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is everybody knows who Freddy Kruger is and you're like, I am doing coke with Freddy Kruger off his
[SPEAKER_01]: glove.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I finally made it.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's hilarious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, great story.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know that back for the attack album.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the album after Underlock and Q came out in in eighty seven.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's really where I kind of jumped on board.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had heard songs, but I bought back for the attack partially based on dream warriors.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I just love the movie, I love the song, the video where they defeat Freddy by playing rock music at him.
[SPEAKER_03]: but the best docking song in my opinion is off back for the attack and that song is called burning like a flame.
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, production wise, dawns of voice sounds sonically better on that song than I think any of these any song on this album.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next song the album.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next song the album is a song called Will the Sun Rise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, how are you going to have an album at the height of the Reagan era and not have a song about the apocalyptic atomic war and what happens the next morning?
[SPEAKER_03]: Will the sun rise when it's over?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like the song though.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's that good.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a hair metal.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of a feel good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, it's not felt it's on, but
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one where the music thinks you should feel good, but hey, we are talking about the end of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So put this one in the positive check mark for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's good.
[SPEAKER_03]: By the way, I don't know if you know this or not, on their next album, I think the opening track on back for the attack is a song called Kiss of Death.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's about eight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like fully about eight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's pretty impressive.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, at a time when nobody was doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, last song in the album.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Last song in the album.
[SPEAKER_03]: This song is called Till The Living End.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't like winking off.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a bit self-massibatory, yes, a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I didn't really have another place for this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just this kind of, I heard this, and this is a very, like, it's weird how things turn out sometimes, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: So Jeff Pilsson, Lost's Dad, when he was like four years old, in a car wreck.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he was in Wisconsin, maybe a young kid, like, twelve, thirteen years old, something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he and his buddy are walking around singing a commercial for like a local Wisconsin route beer, like just having fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I mean, we did this stuff when we were thirteen, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you talked about where is the beef?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: all that and so they're they're walking around on the playground you know just rattle and off this song just being silly and this other group of thirteen year olds is like hey you're actually sing pretty good we've got a band you want to come sing for the band and he's like yeah sure yeah great yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, what we need a base player too, you wanna play base for us?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, yeah, okay, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's like, he thinks, oh, this is a great opportunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never played an instrument before, but I figure I can learn how to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he, like a kid, has a paper out, gets enough money, has a paper out to buy an amp, and a base guitar, and that band never materializes, and he ends up moving away the next year.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that one little seed, that one little moment where he's singing, you know, Wisconsin's, you know, root beer brew or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it changes the course of his entire life because he's not, he's not like most other base players that were like, yeah, I started playing guitar and then I moved into the base.
[SPEAKER_01]: He started with the base and has been a base guy his whole life.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a great story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, before Doc and imploded in nineteen eighty nine, which I'll tell that story here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Second.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Pilsson, you know, he talks about how music flipped in nineteen ninety one and went from basically people calling him to nobody calling him like.
[SPEAKER_01]: that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not even taking his calls.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he ended up playing for Forner for twenty years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to talk about the implosion of Dockon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think they were kind of on borrowed time anyway because they could, I mean, George and Don, the two most important members in the band could not be in the same room together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you ever watched them perform like if you look at Dockon, they don't interact on stage.
[SPEAKER_03]: They just move around
[SPEAKER_03]: like they're playing two different bands.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is after Dream Warriors and back for the attack, they're still climbing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I saw both Don, Jeff and George talk about how they were poised to take it up a notch and kind of become mainstream from next level to go up and up a level.
[SPEAKER_03]: but they just couldn't stand each other, okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this is when it all hit the fan.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep in mind, I read an LA Times article where Don very clearly said, Georgian I hate each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they hate each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're in the limo and they're going to play at Wimbli Arena.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're opening for ACDC.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Don is changing management at the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: He gets in the limo and he says, Jeff and Mick, I'm changing management.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you guys ought to do the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: George, I don't give up what you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then fist were flying.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was on like Donkey Kong.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think George got him in a headlock.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw Don talk about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is like on a VH one special years later.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, last time I saw George Lynch, his hands were around my throat and he was trying to trick me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it just all blew up in that limo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even with all of that animosity, these guys still have gotten together and played again together.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it usually goes bad pretty quick, but they on multiple occasions have gotten back together for some sort of reunion tour show or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the money is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think now, I think Don's just the only, he's the only member that's still left.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everybody else has moved on, and he's still playing as Docker.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was gonna tell you this, George Lynch has done a couple of side projects.
[SPEAKER_03]: Got the Lynch mob, I mean, that's not.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lynch mob was major, moderately big, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he also decide project with Michael Sweet, who is the lead singer for Striper.
[SPEAKER_01]: Big, I feel like that James Buckley is a big Michael Sweet fan if I'm not mistaken.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would be up for doing a Striper album.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that'd be fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure, he would.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he also did a side project with Cory Glover, who you may remember is the lead singer for Living Color.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're a Glover and George Lynch.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I check that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a time for final judgment.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here we are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you go first?
[SPEAKER_03]: You had not, you had no history with these albums.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm anxious to hear what you have to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is an honest struggle for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It genuinely is.
[SPEAKER_01]: As I mentioned, whenever I first turn on the very first song on this album, after we had, you know, we're done with rat.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've listened to
[SPEAKER_01]: to the entire album of invasion of your privacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hear this first song and right out of the gate, I'm like, I'm going to like this better.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I just got, I got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got, I know this is just going to be better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this album, this doc and album has
[SPEAKER_01]: more variety.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I like Don's voice probably better than I like Stephen Pierce's voice, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason, it just was underwhelming to me once I continued on through the album.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like
[SPEAKER_01]: It probably was only partially due to the quality of the music, but also partially due to the quality of the production.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt like it kind of had a flatness about it that I just say what you will about, I mean, what I'm going to say is,
[SPEAKER_01]: If you like one rat song, you like all the other songs, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they just, they all, it's ACDC back a black every single song sounds the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you like it, you like them all.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I lie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love them all, but I like them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was disappointed in the lack of variety on rats album on invasion of your privacy, but
[SPEAKER_01]: Sonically better, melodically, it's better.
[SPEAKER_01]: The lyrics are more catchy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Songs have more staying power.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm just into the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I can't say any more than it's just this just how I feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm walking out the door and I get to pick one of these two, I'm picking invasion of your privacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I like both of these albums.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the best song out of these two albums is laid down.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think the second best one is it's not love.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's close for me, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I like the variety that you get on this album.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for me it's a question of do I like great riffs?
[SPEAKER_03]: or do I like great courses?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I tend to gravitate a little bit more towards the melodic songs, and I like Don's Voice Better.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for me, honestly, if I'm walking out the door and I'm surprised to hear myself say this, I'm grabbing under locking key.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm surprised to.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought this would be one that we were on the same page on.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, I just, as I broke down the song, so I was like, you know, I like that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that one.
[UNKNOWN]: I like that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell us what you think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we are you picking Doc and are you picking rat?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's some major overlap there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, who knows?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, if you feel like, hey, we didn't pick the right two albums and you, you guys are like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You should have done back for the attack and out of the seller.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, out of the, that would have been great.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would have been great.
[SPEAKER_01]: We actually talked about it last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just missed that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think we covered all of those songs pretty well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you guys tell us what your favorite album is, tell us what your favorite tracks are and tell us who you think is the top contender between rat and docking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rock and docking.
[SPEAKER_03]: D next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come back.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's our what the heck happened series.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's time and I'm so excited because you have not seen one of these movies and it's going to be terrible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't wait to put you through that torture.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to cover Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_01]: George Clooney's only attempt at the Batman as what the heck happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Versus Superman returned with Brandon Ralph and both seemed like they had a whole lot of potential.
[SPEAKER_01]: and just really fell flat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the one I haven't seen, I was going to tell you, I haven't seen Batman and Robin.
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw that Uma Thurman's hotness could not overcome the ridiculous idea of Arnold Schwarzenegger ball this Mr. Freeze for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I'm not watching that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now I have to watch it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jason told me he couldn't make it through in one sitting.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, I gotta quit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I gotta go do something else is just making me feel yucky.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep in mind, last summer, the worst movie that we've covered here at Shirley, can't be serious is Beverly Hills, cop three ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's the worst movie we've covered ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a contender, ladies and gentlemen, I can't, I just can't even imagine that how bad it must be.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come back next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're gonna have Jeff Johnson on and we're gonna go through this and ask what the heck happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, see you guys next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.