[SPEAKER_00]: They're in welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_00]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Bianca Morey and I'm joined by Callie Waters and CC Lira from PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And though everyone, welcome to another episode of Books with Hux, if you're watching us on YouTube, you'll already know that it's just CC and Carly today, just us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because our fearless leader Bianca is getting ready for her book launch.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the time this airs, that will already have happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like we're time traveling, which is kind of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is actually a great opportunity to remind everyone, go buy Bianca's book, and most puzzling murder, or check it out from your favorite library.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please support Bianca as she makes this whole podcast happen, and she won't say it herself, so we will.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll say it for her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Carly, do you want to kick us off by reading the first Korean letter?
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely, and I will echo what CCC said, which is, please support our lovely Bianca as CCC said, you know, she is very humble, but it is also very hard to get on your own podcast and talk about your own book all of the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then she's been doing such a great job of putting together incredible social content and her launch, which I hope a bunch of you will be at because we will see you and again, this is coming out in the future, so we will have already seen you.
[SPEAKER_04]: but we just were so proud of her and you know, she'll listen to this and be bashful, but we are very proud of our fiancée.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, um, most puzzling murders should be all in your shelves, in your audio library, in your ebook library, and all the places, and we look forward to hearing what you guys think about her great book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, here I go.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dear Carly, CC and Bianca, thank you for all you do for us writers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Your voices get me company while I was plotting and drafting this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I found my amazing writing group thanks to Bianca's beta reader matchup.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yay!
[SPEAKER_04]: I submitted an earlier version of this query too, books with hoax in twenty twenty three.
[SPEAKER_04]: It didn't get selected, but I'd love to get your feedback on the current version.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've sent some queries and had a couple requests, but I think the letter could be improved before I query widely.
[SPEAKER_04]: Taking out this paragraph, the query is three hundred seventy two words.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm looking for representation for my ninety thousand word debut.
[SPEAKER_04]: We were the good girls.
[SPEAKER_04]: Set in Finland and Barcelona.
[SPEAKER_04]: Given your interest in commercial women's fiction, I hope you might find this multi-POV novel in which the feminist themes of whisper network meet the political ambitions of Rotom and the complex friend group dynamics of the new season of the White Lotus, a good fit for your list.
[SPEAKER_04]: thirteen years ago three best friends spent a dizzying summer in Barcelona.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was supposed to be the perfect post-high school getaway for aspiring photographer Anika, future political powerhouse Mina, and party girl Sophia, art, food, boys, and a never-ending fiesta by the Mediterranean Sea, until an assault brought the group's simmering tensions to a boil.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now in their thirties, each is wrapped up in their problems.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anika is an upcoming food blogger and mother of three whose husband is almost certainly having an affair.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mina is one of the youngest women in finished history to reach chair position in a major political party, but she struggles to hold on to power surrounded by the toxic man of her past.
[SPEAKER_04]: World travel and comedian Safia is a strange from her friends and still trying to get her life back on track after a decade of self-destructive behavior.
[SPEAKER_04]: When a journalist lets Mina in on a scoop of the PM's shady quid pro quo with the man who assaulted her friend all those years ago, the women reunite in Finland.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sophia devises a plan to take him down, but their nemesis is not happy to find them digging up the past.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now the women need to bring him to justice without revealing their own secrets and destroying the lives they've worked so hard to build since that wild summer thirteen years ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a finished former political ghost writer and stand-up comedian living in Buenos Aires, where I studied international relations and journalism and stayed for the wine, sunshine, and vibrant culture.
[SPEAKER_04]: This book was inspired by fierce female leaders like Finland's Santa Marin, as well as my personal experiences of Barcelona, men, and working in politics.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've included the first five beaches below May I send you the full manuscript.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for your time and consideration.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Carly.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the workout and what did you think of the query letter?
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, so there was that opening paragraph and the author said, if we take that out, it is three hundred seventy two words without it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Taking out, it is four hundred seventy three.
[SPEAKER_04]: So quite a number of words added in there, but we always appreciate the context in which you guys find this podcast, so we appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I really like this title.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the comps are really strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think what I'm struggling with a little bit with this query is it's one of those things where I want to like this so bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to like this dramatic story.
[SPEAKER_04]: these three women kind of talking about their dramatic past and what's going on in the present.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm coming to the word, which gets used in publishing a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: And CC Knight can talk about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this word called familiar?
[SPEAKER_04]: agencies this word sometimes familiar, editors use the word familiar.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like what does it mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure you guys who have been in the querying trenches or submission trenches might have heard this word before.
[SPEAKER_04]: So here's the reality, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: There are so many kind of novels, news stories, pop culture bits that kind of get thrown around in our culture that get revisited a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so sometimes those stories are with fresh eyes, sometimes they're not.
[SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes the stories do have fresh eyes, but it's not being pitched to us in a way that really focuses on what is especially unique about the story.
[SPEAKER_04]: think this pitch is relying a lot on the familiarities of, you know, if you like what lotus, then you'll like this or whisper network you'll like this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, I think the comps are strong, but I really don't fully understand what is overly unique about this particular story of women with past secrets trying to take down a man or a collection of men or something like that, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: and especially multi POV because each of these stories has to have their own stakes in the matter and then we need a group stake as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I just didn't really feel like we were getting to all of those juicy pieces that actually set this book apart.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to use word familiar.
[SPEAKER_04]: It felt familiar to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: See, I don't know if you want to expand on what familiar means to you because as agents, we get this for matters sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a brilliant assessment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I fully agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish this weren't the reality because if it weren't, it would make our job so much easier.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if all we had to do was care about a subject matter and enjoy a type of story in order to sell a book, we would sell so many more books.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't just mean Carly and me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean all agents out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every literary agent out there would be like, yes, selling ten books a day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hooray, it's so much fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the reality, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we do need that really like fresh originality coming through while also letting us know where it would sit.
[SPEAKER_01]: like what the comps would be, you know, where I would sit on the shelf.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like a really hard balance to strike.
[SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned that you thought that the query letter might need a little bit of tweaking and I think that your instincts are correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if you take Carly's note and really flesh out the originality here, it will help.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will add that at least to me and Carly, please, I want to know what you think.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for me, it wasn't clear who was assaulted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
[SPEAKER_01]: If it was the group, if it was one of them, I think because of the way it's framed with Sophia's journey last, I kind of imagined that it might be her.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like truth be told, I have no idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wondered if that's something that we need to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if you're keeping the story under wraps a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you didn't say this bit, what else aren't you saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which kind of leads into the previous note, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe there's originality here that you're not sharing with us because you're like, well, I have to
[SPEAKER_01]: After withhold to keep people curious, but it's that dilemma.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much do you withhold?
[SPEAKER_01]: How much do you reveal?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you need to reveal a little bit more here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely reframe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's it's hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: We empathize very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly was that clear to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can let us know that and then you can let us know what the summary was as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think, you know, everything CCC said as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: I definitely think that I'm struggling with, you know, the what's that state question, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it says Sophia defieses a plan to take him down, but their nemesis is not happy to find them digging up the past.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like what's that state?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it the reputation?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it their lives?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, again, this takes it from
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, drama to thriller.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's pitched as women's fiction, which worries me about what is at stake.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because sometimes with women's fiction, what's at stake is something internal or pride.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't have a pride at stake.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's, that's not what we need.
[SPEAKER_04]: We need like dramatic, you know, plotty things to happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, oh, and one note was just the bio.
[SPEAKER_04]: The bio's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: You clearly have an incredible background in terms of knowing the subject matter, having traveled yourself, having a super interesting life.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure you've met a lot of interesting people along the way.
[SPEAKER_04]: well done there.
[SPEAKER_04]: You see like a very interesting person.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so let's get into our summary.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we start with the POV of Anika.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is May, twenty-nineteen.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is in her kitchen.
[SPEAKER_04]: She clearly has some sort of like vlogger, YouTube, you know, Instagram set up going on where she is doing a live event with her followers.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are not told kind of where, how many, but some sort of like live internet event where she is doing some baking.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the baking isn't going the way that she wants.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's trying to make facasha.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not rising and she's like, why am I trying to do this for the first time live on social media when it's not working?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we hear somebody pull into the driveway and she's like, holy crap.
[SPEAKER_04]: My family wasn't supposed to get home yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I'm trying to juggle this Instagram live social media live situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not going well.
[SPEAKER_04]: My family's home early.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have young kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're going to be loud.
[SPEAKER_04]: All of this is kind of not working.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we see the family through the protagonist's eyes talking to the neighbor who she clearly has a beef with or is jealous of who also was involved with something with social media seems always to be perfect and that's obviously bothering her.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so she's like doing this social media live clearly very agitated.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I know Sexy's gonna have a lot to say about what's going on externally versus what's going on internally because there's a lot of interesting kind of dilemmas, which I think comes off really strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's pretty much it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then she reflects at the end on what would her friends do in this situation because one of her friends showed up on the Instagram live, which adds to the drama of bringing these friends back together.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is where we end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Carly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what did you think of the execution?
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, I really liked it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I felt like I was reading a book which is the highest compliment really because it takes me out of the reading a manuscript or critique for my show and that it does is a checklist item.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's a thing is a checklist item.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, oh, I'm in this world and I'm absorbed in it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think what's going on is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: I found it incredibly tense.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I can just imagine myself on an Instagram live and something not going right and you're just frustrated.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're trying to be like, did it, did it, did it?
[SPEAKER_04]: Everything's like we've done this on the show before when it's like some sort of construction catastrophe happening outside of our houses while we're like trying to be on the show and everything's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I know that like tension.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it can be really stressful.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I have recorded this show.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you guys listened to the early episodes of our show, my children were here because of his COVID.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you can hear them chattering in the background all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, I'm trying to record this podcast trying to focus on what I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anyway, I can totally relate.
[SPEAKER_04]: I found a very stressful because, you know, anxiety, capital A anxiety was coming through here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some questions that I had about this were the following.
[SPEAKER_04]: It seemed coincidental to me that the neighbor also had some sort of like social media star online entrepreneur career.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she also seemed a little bit like caricature to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: The paragraph I'll read is kind of describing her.
[SPEAKER_04]: How did you need to even look like that every single day?
[SPEAKER_04]: How was her hair so perfectly wavy every time she stepped out with the twins in the morning?
[SPEAKER_04]: How was her makeup always applicable with a pair of toddlers in the house?
[SPEAKER_04]: And how did she manage to walk in those yoga pants if they were pulled up all the way to her teeth?
[SPEAKER_04]: Didn't they give her a rash?
[SPEAKER_04]: That did not feel as fresh to me as it could because this could be any woman.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you could be literally talking about a woman walking down the street.
[SPEAKER_04]: What is this specifically?
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't really understand what specifically about Janita was wrapped up in this.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we've seen a lot of quote unquote perfect moms with their yoga pants pushing their toddlers in a stroller.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, I just didn't really understand why this was the way you chose to describe her or what we were learning about your neighbor through this description.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would re-evaluate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just felt like the writing was so strong otherwise that that really stuck out to me as
[SPEAKER_04]: that would just need a rework just because of the strength of everything else.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was totally taken with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was really interesting and I liked at the end how you brought it back to the friends for this sample of, you know, what would my former friends thought in this situation?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I thought it was pretty strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you see what did you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely echo the comment about it reading like a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like because it does.
[SPEAKER_01]: It reads like a published book and this doesn't happen very often.
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually I can tell that I'm reading a draft and this is an educational show so it's totally fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is a treat to be reading something that feels so polished.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did a really good job.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that, you know, to the writer, this is very fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: The pace is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does feel more to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a very CC specific thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the beginning of a show or a movie as opposed to the beginning of a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not because books can't begin like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's because I am the queen of I want tips.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want interiority.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want emotionality.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want psychological acuity.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's a hundred percent of me problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't think you should listen to my note.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you should be very confident in your writing and very happy with what you've done.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are curious about the perspective of someone who will get usually like something that's a little bit more
[SPEAKER_01]: Just different, I guess it's not more or less anything, but it's just different.
[SPEAKER_01]: The juxtaposition of having her like live with her husband arriving, with her kids, with seeing him like flirt with the neighbor or potentially flirt with the neighbor, that was too much information.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's three seas to storytelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's curiosity, connection, and context.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were giving us all the context, like all the information.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't in doubt of anything, right, because you were so clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I felt like because of the overload of information, I could have used with more connection and more curiosity, especially for Sophia.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did a great job of saying, Sophia would have laughed at that, and suddenly her absence was a stab between the ribs.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's really hard to pull this off.
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks easy when you're reading it, but it's really hard to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that it was just a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: especially because of the query letter like I'm almost wondering if this story doesn't need and I never thought I'd say this a prologue like to add that layer of mystery right because if we are going to go on an investigation of this man I almost wonder if we don't need a prologue like frame the mystery element of this although I don't know I don't know if mysteries such a huge deal in your story because you are
[SPEAKER_01]: pitching it as women's fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe I'm trying to make it into something that it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I very much wish you were on the show with us because I wanted to ask you like these questions like how much is the mystery, how much is the suspense just so we could know, but you did a really good job.
[SPEAKER_01]: You should be very proud.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you to this author.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to throw it to CC now for her to do her query.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, before we do that, let's hear from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dear CC, Bianca and Carly, I'm so grateful to have found the shit no one tells you about writing and the beta group matchup.
[SPEAKER_01]: Both have become invaluable parts of my writing routine and have improved my novel immensely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Word count from here.
[SPEAKER_01]: For a hundred and twenty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Due to your interest in dysfunctional families, morally ambiguous protagonists, and settings that double its character, I'm seeking representation for my work of book club fiction, The Fire Pit, completed eighty-two thousand words.
[SPEAKER_01]: Through dual points of view, it explores what happens when a grandmother and granddaughter go from estranged to entangled.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fire pit narrates present-day impacts of generational trauma within a strong summer home setting, as in the paper palace by Miranda Kali Heller, and has made characters in a similar emotional stage despite their age gap as in the one hundred years of Lenny and Marco by Marianne Cronin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Spreading her husband's ashes three years after he died is the last instruction Loretta Brenner will ever need to follow from Elliott, the man who dominated her life for fifty years.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's relieved to finally gather her family at the island's camp.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've gone to for generations until her estranged granddaughter Josephine shows up unannounced.
[SPEAKER_01]: Josephine can no longer delay adulthood with international trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's time to say yes to the woman she loves and find a career, but she can't move past the transient lifestyle her mother raised her in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Josephine comes to the only place that's ever felt like home, hoping to learn from the legacy of her grandparents' relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: When she discovers Loretta is secretly planning to sell the camp, Josephine vows to stay and stop her, even if it risks her romantic relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Loretta agrees hoping to keep Josephine quiet so she can finally escape the burden of the camp and everything it represents.
[SPEAKER_01]: Having gone from estranged to entangled, Loretta and Josephine are surprised at how much they enjoy being together.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, when Josephine betrays Loretta and the true extent of Elliot's abuse is revealed, Loretta and Josephine must decide if they can work together to reconcile their family's past in a way that allows each woman to move forward with her future.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been a full-time freelance writer for more than a decade, working in journalism and content marketing.
[SPEAKER_01]: My writing in the Washington Post, Oprah Magazine, the independent business insider and more, has been read by millions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I live in rural New Hampshire near the cabin where six generations of my family spent their summers, which inspired the fire pit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was previously represented by redacted at redacted literary agency and amicably parted ways after a non-fiction project died on submission and my agent left the industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: My first five pages are below.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could I send you the full manuscript?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sincerely Kelly Birch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, CC, and what did you think of that query letter?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I need to start with the author paragraph, which I never do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going like all over the place today.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is such an impressive author paragraph, like so impressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: We rarely see something with so many credentials.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just really, really impressive and it's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So congratulations.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm gonna hop to the title, which as you guys know is not something I usually obsess about at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always like, who cares?
[SPEAKER_01]: The title, who cares?
[SPEAKER_01]: Give me the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think this title is great for your story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I read the fire pit and I'm like, I don't, like it didn't give me those vibes, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the summer campy vibe, the intergenerational trauma vibe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it didn't feel like a dual point of view grandmother granddaughter story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never thought I'd say this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always like,
[SPEAKER_01]: So impressed when Carly talks about titles, but I'm like, doesn't really matter to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is contagious maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that now I care about titles too.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had something you have to care about.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's part of the rant.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think personally I'll just jump in really quick and CC can hop back to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it sounds like a thriller to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like the fire pit.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, something like fire.
[SPEAKER_04]: very dramatic unless something has to do in the story with the fire pit with somebody pushed into the fire pit like again I don't know where the story is going we could come back to the fire pit as a central location but also again also I say one more thing to see
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, when you're thinking about the cover, when we're thinking about the title, you have to put a fire pit on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't like titles sometimes where we have to spell it out, though fire pit.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then what else you can put on the cover, a fire pit.
[SPEAKER_04]: So then it's like the fire pit and then picture of a fire pit.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know what I'm trying to say?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like doubling down on the imagery and the branding, which makes it feel like a thriller.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, back to CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was bitten by your bug and you were bitten by mine because you were like a quick thing and then you went off on a CC ramble.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is the best guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're now being contentious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ricky Friday.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, if we had a freaky Friday, I wouldn't be able to run a marathon.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that the query letter is good, but I'll be honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: I finished reading this query letter and the first thought that popped into my head was
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's the present day conflict?
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is actually a lot more common than people might think.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see it as literary agents all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pitches that have strong elements, uninteresting premise, simmering tension between the protagonists, plenty of backstory, a really cool hook like grandmother granddaughter is strange and tangled.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is a cool hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: but no present-day conflict, tension isn't conflict, they're different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the key word here really is present-day, like icy sources of conflict in the past, but not in the present.
[SPEAKER_01]: My best guess is that the present-day conflict exists, but the writer either got carried away, adding the backstory, which is so interesting, or maybe the writer got worried that revealing the conflict would result in spoilers,
[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, for me, it's way too amorphous to vague.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's depicted in words like reconcile and move forward, and that really doesn't paint a clear picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I want clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want compelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be buried actually in the line that reads, and I'll read it for you, when Josephine betrays Loretta.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that's the present day central conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's the climax, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish the author were on the show so I could ask her about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another possibility is that this is a quiet novel, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: If that's the case, I'll be honest, I don't think you should pitch it as book club fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, book club fiction requires sharp gripping, present-day conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really a non-negotiable.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am really grateful to the writer for submitting their work because it does give us an opportunity to talk about the importance of ensuring that your stories present day conflict is really present in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do love the hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be clear about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like having estranged grandmother granddaughter, like that's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot that we can potentially unpack there.
[SPEAKER_01]: As someone who is very, very close to my grandmother, she has already passed away, but I still
[SPEAKER_01]: referred to that in the present because the relationship feels alive to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that I would a hundred percent read a book with this hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think that we need to flesh out that present day conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly, what did you think?
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, I definitely agree.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was kind of like a searching for what it was like to me, I think the way that I read it is that
[SPEAKER_04]: The present day hook is going to be in the battle for who owns the property.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's going to happen to the property.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does she want to keep it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I do think there is something there, but it's not spelled out at all in CC and I both had to go looking for it and we said so many times on this show.
[SPEAKER_04]: agents aren't always going to have time be looking for those details.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I had some fun with this query today.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had a little bit of extra time on my hands, which I don't usually have some extra time on my hands.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I decided to rewrite your hook for you in five different ways.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I never do this because again, it takes a lot of time and
[SPEAKER_04]: thought about what is actually hokey about this, but I think season I could both sense, like there is a hook here, it's just not being communicated very well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you're part of my author's publishing playbook, you have access to all of my hook templates.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what I did was I took my hook templates from my program and kind of plugged in this book into my hook templates.
[SPEAKER_04]: So
[SPEAKER_04]: And then it gives you five hook examples today where I took my templates.
[SPEAKER_04]: I took this query, mash them together using three different templates of mine.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you'll kind of see what I mean by that.
[SPEAKER_04]: In my course, I have eight different templates, so lots more options, but not every template is always going to be for every book.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to give you my examples here for the rest of them that aren't kind of on display.
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, you guys can head to my authors publishing playbook and have access to.
[SPEAKER_04]: all of this right in front of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so the first one that we are going to go through is the character plus goal plus obstacle hook.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when I take this template, the character goal obstacle template, and I take all of the elements of this book, this is what we get.
[SPEAKER_04]: A grandmother must finally escape the burden of her family's vacation home, despite her estranged granddaughter's unexpected arrival in determination to save it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we have, what is our character?
[SPEAKER_04]: What is their goal?
[SPEAKER_04]: What is their obstacle?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because we have two primary characters here, we also have to make sure that both characters are mentioned.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think this example does a good job of what are the characters, what are their goals and what are their obstacles?
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's that example.
[SPEAKER_04]: The next example is the what if question template.
[SPEAKER_04]: The what if question template isn't my favorite because it's kind of rhetorical question.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's kind of got a question mark at the end.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not right for every query letter and we do see a lot of those like question mark hooks where you're like, oh, are you just like leading us where you want to go, but sometimes a query requires a what if question hook template.
[SPEAKER_04]: So
[SPEAKER_04]: here are my examples for this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: What if the place you called home held the key to your family's deepest wounds and to heal them you had to risk losing it all?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a little bit vague obviously but sometimes for some books you need a question mark so that's an example there, another one.
[SPEAKER_04]: What if scattering ashes meant unearthing decades of secrets forcing a grandmother and granddaughter to confront a legacy of abuse?
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're getting like
[SPEAKER_04]: the ashes leads to the secret we get the mash up of the two characters and the legacy of abuse is essentially I think what everything is hiding under here.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's a couple examples of the what if question.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now the last template example I'm going to tell you guys is the irony or kind of like twist hook.
[SPEAKER_04]: So
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, what's the twist that we're going to get to?
[SPEAKER_04]: So here's a couple of examples applied to this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: A grandmother's attempt to finally find freedom by selling her family's summer home is thwarted by the one person she never expected to see again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Her estranged granddaughter who believes the camp is her only true home and she'll risk everything to keep it in the family.
[SPEAKER_04]: Another option.
[SPEAKER_04]: The family's summer home meant to be a place of soulless and family tradition becomes a battleground for uncovering a dark history of abuse that binds two women across generations.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you'll see all of my examples there are getting a little bit more kind of like heat and heart of the story.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're getting at what's bringing these two characters together, what's that stake for them?
[SPEAKER_04]: And even if it is quiet, you can see how you can still write hooks in a way that don't sound quiet even if they are quiet because
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not trying to fool anybody.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're just trying to get them to read your book.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I wanted to take the time today to rewrite those hooks for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I hope that was helpful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody listening.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are lots of templates out there that you can use to kind of plug and play and figure out what it works best for your story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Carly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will go ahead and summarize the opening pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the protagonist is scattering a handful of her late husband's ashes on a boat with her family.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is directing other family members to do the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they see like a kayak approaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: It turns out that
[SPEAKER_01]: That's her granddaughter, Josephine, and she was not supposed to show up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this causes a lot of emotions on the protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not good emotions.
[SPEAKER_01]: The protagonist clearly does not want her there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And didn't think she'd come.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they continue scattering the ashes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone just says hi to Josephine, but she kind of like stays back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they continue scattering the ashes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then her son asks, well, shouldn't we say something?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she, for a moment, she feels her heart swell with emotion, but she's like, listen, there's nothing else to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now my thoughts on the pages, this is either not starting in the right place or it's not starting in the right way or there's something missing from your story setup.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll try to explain what made me reach these theories.
[SPEAKER_01]: A question every storyteller needs to answer when they are writing a novel or a memoir is what do I want my reader to be curious about?
[SPEAKER_01]: The best answers are specific.
[SPEAKER_01]: Answers like everything are not specific.
[SPEAKER_01]: Answers like my protagonist's feelings or my protagonist's motivation, these are not good answers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do not recommend that these be your answers.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need not just specificity, but we need really juicy specificity.
[SPEAKER_01]: And right now, I am being shown
[SPEAKER_01]: a protagonist who is clearly bothered by the arrival of Josephine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a disruption, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like every beginning needs a disruption.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's clearly the disruption.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not feeling with the protagonist any of these emotions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have emotionality and we have interiority.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that they're absent.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have emotions like rage, even hints of disgust.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have interiority that includes the protagonist thinking how dare she.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, accusing her of showing up in a dramatic fashion, all in her inner life, all that it's just for the reader.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's really, really well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's no plot to back it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because to me, the fact that her rival was dramatic and bothered the protagonist is excellent, but not enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you definitely keep that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also need to understand why this is bothering the protagonist so much, not in a way where you're gonna spell everything out, but you're gonna give me just enough to be curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm left feeling more confused than curious, because I know from the queer letter there is strange, but what exactly is so threatening or disruptive about her presence?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what is she expecting this presence to do to the group dynamics to her own situation?
[SPEAKER_01]: It all comes down to power and power dynamics, and
[SPEAKER_01]: In order for this disruption to be the disruption that's going to kick off your story, you need more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe you don't have more because this isn't the right disruption, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe you do have more and you just didn't give us enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will say it's very rare that interiority and emotionality are present on the page without the plot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually writers, they'll issue the plot, but then they'll forget about the interiority and emotionality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in you, you have the opposite problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people think that emotional arcs can be seen in isolation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that question all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do I map out my character's emotional arc?
[SPEAKER_01]: And my answer is always, you don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Forget about the emotional arc.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no such thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is, but it doesn't actually matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you map out an emotional arc, you will
[SPEAKER_01]: probably forget about the plot, like you need to map out your character arc, and Emotionality will be a part of that, right, as well the story beats, their goals, the disruption, the challenge, the obstacle, the emotions have to exist almost like in a pinball effect with that, you know, where
[SPEAKER_01]: where you'll turn on the levers and the ball will go pinging around and hitting a whole bunch of things and the motion will cause action and action will cause emotion, reaction will cause action and so on and so forth it's not a neat chain reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so here you have two elements, but one element is missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I don't know, I think your story set up is fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I had to guess, I would say your story set up is totally fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's missing is really just including the information in a way that reveals just enough to get us curious, but not too much that just gives it all away.
[SPEAKER_01]: How about you, Carly?
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you think?
[SPEAKER_04]: I was really taken with the writing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to read a couple pieces that I thought were really well done.
[SPEAKER_04]: The right off the top here, we're starting at the beginning of the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: The red I had expected the ashes to float and sashay like pollen in a spring breeze or the first fine snowflakes of the season.
[SPEAKER_04]: Instead, the fragments of her husband dropped like shooting stars through the dark water gone before she could make a wish.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now that she'd ever been one for wishing.
[SPEAKER_04]: At last, she thought the words to her wedding song had been a relief fifty two years ago and they were a relief now.
[SPEAKER_04]: She tipped her hand again watching her husband's ashes cascade across her skin.
[SPEAKER_04]: until all that was left of him was a fine dust filling the deepest cracks in her palm.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's just really beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like this is one of those openers where I bet to this writer wrote this a hundred times, edited it, changed it, but like every word choice here is so perfect and we thought they're clearly got to a place where they're like, I have every word just right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was really, really taken with the writing here.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think what I was confused about a kind of what CC was, is actually getting at was, which is, you've set up an interesting situation, and yet you're not giving us enough of the why, like why is she a strange?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why did they choose the boat?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I don't know, you just need to give us a little bit more here in terms of how they got to this exact moment, which is I think what CC's getting at where it's like, why don't we're starting at the right place if none of us can understand why we're starting in this moment, because I don't really think we have a why.
[SPEAKER_04]: I usually stay, we always have to start at the most interesting point in the character's life, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is clearly the start of a new life for her after her husband has passed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, this is the moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like, why did they wait three years?
[SPEAKER_04]: How did they get everybody together?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, how did the granddaughter know to show up on a kayak alongside the boat?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's just too much unanswered here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think maybe, and if I could speculate that the author's being a bit precious, you know, they're being a bit precious with the words for the sake of the plot.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we just need to like bring plot.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now that you really have this
[SPEAKER_04]: you know again incredible craft down we have to go back with a plot lens and I just don't think we went back to the plot lens to think of is all of this making sense does the reader know enough what did your beta reader say about this because I'd be really curious what your beta reader saw to this because again the writing is great and sometimes our beta readers are too close to us you know because they know too much in the rent to many drafts like did a fresh beta reader read this I would be very curious about that and what their feedback would be but I think the writing is is great
[SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely echo that fantastic writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that we were able to spend so much time critiquing the content is always, always joy because if the writing weren't so great, we wouldn't be able to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you currently.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next week, we will have Bianca back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll be back to our usual group.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you everyone for listening.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some projects I work on come together so clearly in vision and message.
[SPEAKER_04]: And let us play with one of them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Harrison Brown, the first trans professional hockey player and a sister investigative journalist Rachel Brown, co-wrote an incredible book debunking miss about trans athletes in reveal how the opposition towards gender diverse athletes is fueled by fear and a moral panic as opposed to facts around what makes, quote, a level of playing field and quote.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let us play dismantles the illusion that sports have ever been fair that trans athletes pose a threat to women's sports, and that gender-affirming healthcare for athletes should be preventative to play.
[SPEAKER_04]: I always say this is the type of book that will make you the smartest person at the dinner party about this topic, and help you be the best ally that you can be to our trans brothers, sisters, and non-binary team members.
[SPEAKER_04]: Today, I have an exclusive audio excerpt of Let Us Play, the introduction read by Harrison Brown himself, enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: College was also a time for me to figure out who I was, free from the watchful gaze of my parents, and the microscope of my small, conservative hometown.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was living on my own for the first time, and surrounded myself with like-minded people, and I gained confidence to express myself in a more masculine way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was liberating.
[SPEAKER_02]: My college team mates became my second family, and I soon trusted them with my biggest secret.
[SPEAKER_02]: In my second year, I came out to my team and coaches as a transgender man and had my first taste of living my life as Harrison, within my hockey locker room.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still wasn't sure that I could compete on the women's side as a trans man.
[SPEAKER_02]: So beyond coming out to those people, I didn't come out publicly out of fear that I could lose my scholarship and not be allowed to play anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thus lived a double life for my entire college career, being Harrison in one aspect, and someone I wasn't in every other way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was agonizing and disorienting.
[SPEAKER_02]: For Transmen, an AFAB non-binary elite college athletes, often their only option is to transition socially.
[SPEAKER_02]: When a trans person changes aspects about themselves, separate from medical treatments to align with their gender identity.
[SPEAKER_02]: As they are beholden to strict policies,
[SPEAKER_02]: Those considering a medical transition with hormones will most likely take testosterone.
[SPEAKER_02]: A band substance for athletes who play on women's teams as it's seen as providing an unfair competitive advantage.
[SPEAKER_02]: Later I'll explain why this reasoning isn't necessarily correct.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was at the end of my sophomore year that I knew I had to do something with regard to my gender dysphoria and my desire to live openly as a trans man.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as I said, hormones were absolutely out of the question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that beyond letting my team mates know my secret, there were other officially sanctioned ways for me to be Harrison, a man, in my league.
[SPEAKER_02]: That wouldn't be revealed until my school's compliance officer called me into our office one day in late spring after our season had ended in a disappointing way.
[SPEAKER_02]: My team had been eliminated from the playoffs after the first round.
[SPEAKER_02]: It still stings to think about the breakaway I missed in over time, against Boston College.
[SPEAKER_02]: The top sea to team in the hockey east conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would have been the upset of the century, and even my best friends still nags me about it to this day.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't sure why the compliance officer had called me in.
[SPEAKER_02]: We started chatting and she mentioned that one of my teammates who remained anonymous had told her that I was transgender.
[SPEAKER_02]: My anonymous teammate wasn't being intentionally malicious as far as I could tell, but I was stunned and a bit confused as to why I had been outed without my consent.
[SPEAKER_02]: The compliance officer, however, was completely nonchalant about me being trans, and wanted to support me in my social transition while reminding me about the NCAA's testosterone policy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I shared her I wasn't planning on taking the hormone.
[SPEAKER_02]: She also said I could have my own locker room if I wanted, and changed my name and pronouns on the roster.
[SPEAKER_02]: I decided not to take her up on either of these options.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to get ready for games and practices alongside my teammates.
[SPEAKER_02]: The locker room is a place of joy and camaraderie.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't feel like a woman's room to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's simply where I felt most comfortable.
[SPEAKER_02]: As for publicly changing my name and pronouns, I just wasn't ready yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was too scared of how I might be perceived by those outside my little hockey bubble and how my parents would react.
[SPEAKER_02]: As I still wasn't even out to them, at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Looking back, I realized how important it is for trans and non-binary student athletes to have those options, whether or not they take them.
[SPEAKER_02]: These choices provide a baseline of institutional acceptance and acknowledgement for gender-diverse athletes at all levels.
[SPEAKER_02]: Something that is becoming even more important amid the anti-trans backlash that is only getting worse these days.
[SPEAKER_02]: The process of transitioning socially is something that's often left out of the conversation about trans and non-binary people in general and for athletes specifically.
[SPEAKER_02]: The focus is usually on the physical and medical aspects of transitioning.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the beginning of my journey in the public eye after I came out publicly, my body was all journalists really focused on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was asked numerous times about surgeries and other very intimate things.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was jarring and violating.
[SPEAKER_02]: They likely would have never asked cisgender athletes such personal and specific questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: For many trans folks who don't undergo surgery or take hormones, it can be isolating and leave them feeling like they aren't valid members of the community.
[SPEAKER_02]: In recent years, I've been having conversations about this with athlete ally, a group based in New York that supports LGBTQ plus athletes who compete in sports at all levels from recreational to elite.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a bath, athlete allies director of research told me, it is exceedingly uncommon that college athletes are going to undergo hormone replacement therapy, any sorts of surgeries while they're in school.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a big void right now in college level sports, both in terms of the policies and overall awareness by coaches and administrators, and in terms of supporting athletes who seek to transition, at least socially.
[SPEAKER_02]: Filling this void will make things more comfortable and inclusive for all athletes and help people understand that there's more than one way to be trans.
[SPEAKER_02]: The only examples of transgender people I was aware of before I came out were folks who had transitioned physically and medically.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't fit into that category yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think I would be accepted as a man in society, let alone in men's athletics, as someone who didn't necessarily look or sound like one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Had I been able to see more out-trans people that had only socially transitioned, it would have empowered me to come out sooner and live my truth at an earlier age.
[SPEAKER_02]: But more importantly, it would have given me the knowledge that I can absolutely be myself while still playing my sport.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it had to be one or the other, but it can, and should always be both.
[SPEAKER_04]: A reminder that this is an unscripted program in our conversations, have been edited and condensed, and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author.
[SPEAKER_04]: As always, refer back to our written notes for the Folsom picture.
[SPEAKER_04]: Carly Waters in CC Lera are agents at PS Literary Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency, and the views expressed by Carly and CC on this podcast are solely that of them, as podcasts go host and do not necessarily reflect the views of opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_04]: Reminder, but all the ways that you can support us as a show, rate us five stars on Apple podcasts, tell your writing friends about us.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'd love to help as many writers as possible.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You can find it at the shitaboutwriting.substack.com.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the shitaboutwriting.substack.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's it for today's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, keep at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, it just takes one yes.