[SPEAKER_04]: She's a woman on a mission over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is your microphone working?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, um, my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout out to my mom, shout
[SPEAKER_04]: And so my, one of my siblings was like, I wanted to do a party or a trip.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my dad was like, why not both?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I sent this email that I was like, here's my dream.
[SPEAKER_04]: We do a trip.
[SPEAKER_04]: We do two surprise parties.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I just wanted to have a blowout.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I get a call for my mom.
[SPEAKER_04]: two days ago and she's like, carry, hey, um, I heard that you wanted to do a party so fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to do a party.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think part of me and I told her as a part of me, I think wanted to do this because I wanted to take a little control away from her.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like to force like to answer that she had no part in it and it would have been fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my brother's band would play.
[SPEAKER_04]: And anyway, um, so the pitch she now has is going on a three day cruise around Thanksgiving.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, we did that last year or so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really wanted to ask you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have some advice.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell me the advice actually, because I do and my mom's going to be listening to this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So mom, tune in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Try to pick a cruise that has a little kid friendly activity.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's ours, Ted's officer, which was enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was playing the activities for my kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, this is perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: What cruis did you take, Royal Caribbean?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was Royal Caribbean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say the one thing that really bothered me was that they didn't like kids in the escape room and they didn't have any kid programming.
[SPEAKER_01]: The kid's own looked so depressing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Was a lame as fuck?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was just like a room with nothing in it and kids watching TV.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't pack a wine in your bag.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll take it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it'll break.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wait, where'd you go on the cruise?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's Candido, Mexico.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, this is a, we would be leaving in Florida.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, like, have a Caribbean island.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which I've never been to a Caribbean island.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I kind of love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you'll have a blast.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just being with the family will be really fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked just that we all had different big dinners together every night.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that parts really fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what was, oh, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's tricky about a cruise.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys have little kids, but I hadn't thought about them when we were on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, what's nice when you're all staying in a house together is when the kids go to bed, everybody can like play a game or do a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially the crews will have a lot of nighttime programming that's like this show, this event.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me and Brianna, we would put our kids to bed and then we would be stuck because you can't leave your kids alone on a cruise ship and go to those things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you were in a house, you could all be together.
[SPEAKER_01]: But instead, we wouldn't really hang out together when it was bedtime because it was just like, it's like, we had a curfew and we had to find bad TV on our room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is, I am worried about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, because don't you remember there was, I think there was a woman who was accused of
[SPEAKER_04]: leaving our kids unattended on a cruise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can see where you would want to, like, basically the cruise will have all these fun things for you to do at night and you'll be trapped in your room.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, what do you do about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: We stayed in our room.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Matt and Josh went and saw a show together.
[SPEAKER_01]: which I do like.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Josh was doing really funny impressions of the show, which was apparently a very old school, very like, a guy's a very gay man singing about how he loves women and being like, I love all kinds of ladies and then the ladies would come out of feathers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was old school.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did I ever tell you when we weren't on a cruise to Alaska?
[SPEAKER_04]: There was like a world music crew.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was a world music show and it was... What are the most offensive things I've ever seen in my life?
[SPEAKER_04]: They like did.
[SPEAKER_04]: They did a world music so they like explored music from like all over the globe in this mostly white
[SPEAKER_04]: like group of people and like what is the what is the like um pattern is a dashiki or is it like yeah like having white people come out into shikis and sing Lion King feels
[SPEAKER_04]: offensive to call that world music or sing like Toto's Africa.
[SPEAKER_04]: It just was what I was saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: What?
[SPEAKER_04]: And the old people were like jamming, like loving every second.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like, did we learn nothing?
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think to be fair, I think cruise ships are kind of like a shitty club in Europe.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think time freezes and they're like twenty years behind.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's my pitch.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think cruises are stuck in time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we should definitely give them a pass.
[SPEAKER_04]: It actually makes sense because the people on the cruise are leaving.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're all stuck in time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our stuck in time and our on like nine month long tracks around the meeting new people like your style.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's wild.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say that what is cool about a cruise is that
[SPEAKER_01]: Being on it, a cruise is not my favorite kind of vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being on it with little kids and being like, we're on a boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the boat's gonna leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we go somewhere else and you can look outside and see that we're going somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_01]: All that was very cool to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so getting to show my kids that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that was very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that I think that part of it, that piece of the puzzle is really nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I went on another trip, a big family trip, I would rather be in a big house where we can all be together all day and all night, and never say good night, and never say goodbye.
[SPEAKER_04]: What a creep you are, what a creep you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just love my dream.
[SPEAKER_04]: Change.
[SPEAKER_04]: Another thing I had to tell you is I'm reading the final, the last available horny dragon book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you sad that you're almost done?
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, I mean, I'm voraciously reading.
[SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't sleep last night and so I read until three in the morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't sound healthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it doesn't, but it's there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I wasn't tired and I was in a good part of well, when you're in an exciting part in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're like, and you're just like, what are these dragons going to say?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what is happening?
[SPEAKER_03]: They met all these dragons.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are dressed like Koa, it's shocking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why it makes sense that this weekend, we're all going together, too, medieval times.
[SPEAKER_03]: medieval times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did tell.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was going to medieval times last night.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, with kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, no, I looked at her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, no, I'm going alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just got one ticket.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that weird?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it'll be fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: She looked at me like, with murder in her eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, all right, I'm going with kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: But come on, like, what a question.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, well, it's not a question.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are people that go to medieval times with no, I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love a good time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I didn't have kids, I would go to middle times with grownups.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have kids,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you will let you go without them.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the judgment I'm giving that you're sensing in me.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it was so funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were talking to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you can't come.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going like it's like if I took a trip to Disney with just Matt and we got a sitter like it's just we're doing people do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I judge that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's what I think is funny is that when we were initially going to Medieval Times and talking about it, at one of your backyard hangs, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, I'm just having flashbacks to the AI of it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: After, after, oh god, that was a dark time this week.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was really, really dark.
[SPEAKER_01]: One night, the AI cartoon that's been made of you, where you look so disgusting, you look monster.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he was showing you the one it made of him and Adam and it was so handsome.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was really funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well mine looks really bad too.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a different way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I look like a weird school farm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Truly?
[SPEAKER_01]: I made him remake mine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does it look better?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just need to be like, can you use more pictures?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that AI knows my music.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I have twenty chances of the woman of a thousand chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you're so red.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, be so crowds.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's really what's the most and you're like all your all-gums like it's very intense you're like three yellow teeth look like an ogre I was heckling so hard and the funny thing is is like I see how it looked like me like I saw it did not
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I saw it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I saw where what it was holding onto.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, it's grasping at the straws.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I saw the straws.
[SPEAKER_04]: I saw where the straws were like, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was the most, I like, would post it online, but I'm worried that some of your mother would have a heart attack.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please don't do that to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carry?
[SPEAKER_01]: Take it down.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't get it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not coming.
[SPEAKER_04]: We call her the beast.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is truly, I mean, when I tell you, it's just like the most offensive thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: May, oh God, it was so bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you think if we, do you think if we, do you think if we promoted that we're gonna put the Spencer generate an AI on our Patreon?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think people would join us for that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put it up today.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to put it when this episode is revealed because there's a lot of coordination.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to remember when that happens.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, because I put them, I'm going to post it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to know this was the episode where we did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The organization.
[SPEAKER_04]: We completely do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Look at the episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're recording two, thirty.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, so we're posting the AI, the Spencer AI come after this episode is out and you're fucking welcome and join Patreon.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the plug.
[SPEAKER_04]: Who goes first?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, welcome to truly dark people who goes first.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's me, I go first.
[SPEAKER_04]: I go first.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_04]: Say we have to say.
[SPEAKER_04]: Say what you have to say.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm still dying over that fucking.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, this is what I wanted to say before I got rudely interrupted by my own imaginary thoughts about AI is we were at a barbecue and one of your friends is in the backyard and I was talking.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I'm so excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to medieval times and she looked at me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I was absolutely unmanaged.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it hell-a-rain?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I feel like it'd be.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I, yes, and she looked at me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she's like, wait, I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, I know they're going because they have kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why are you, where are you, where are you going?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why would you, why would you do that?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, why would I not?
[SPEAKER_04]: And she was like, absolutely gobsmacked appalled that young adult humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: would go to medieval times.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know me, I'm for the fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a gal who loves a good time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just for this people.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm for the peak.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just like carry for the people what we all live.
[SPEAKER_04]: I live in fear of a phomo.
[SPEAKER_04]: I live it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'll tell you that in the Patreon because I'm starting a new thing today.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll see if it works if I keep up with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm here for the fun and why wouldn't I go and enjoy a weird chicken dinner while watching actors joust?
[SPEAKER_04]: Also, and wouldn't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she was like, I would never want to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I fear that my children will be lacking in experiences because I will refuse to participate.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, I get that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I get capitalism is popping off and do we want to contribute?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I get all of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like, let's raise our full kids, but also like,
[SPEAKER_01]: who doesn't need to time travel because this because we start to wreck the world and we need to go back to a time of jousting and she's the fool that doesn't know anything about it while the rest of us have been doing our homework.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who will survive?
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you have teeth black out shit?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really wanted us to go as wedges.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really liked that idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe if you order it now, it'll come in time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to spend extra money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's probably worth it, but... Oh, it might be worth it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but it's... Those pictures will last forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe A.I.L.
[SPEAKER_01]: generate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, maybe we could just go in and correct the picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: put in some black to remove.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please remove several teeth from this picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we got to just sub in the picture AI already made of you because that is a bar wedge if I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think that person's a barwedge.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're a kitchen maid because they should not be customer-face.
[SPEAKER_04]: Put her in the back.
[SPEAKER_04]: That woman, are you kidding?
[SPEAKER_04]: Wenches should be a little sexy, should be like a little bit like trying to lure men to get their money.
[SPEAKER_04]: This woman is so in a scolary made.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this woman is making all boners just fall at what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll write off the body, run in fear, detach, and leave the scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's dangerous.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's really, it's, you know, when you're, when you're a person in the world, and you already have, you know, maybe confidence issues, things like that, to have AI confront you with an image of me that is possible.
[SPEAKER_04]: like the most terrific version of yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would love it if it made me be like, I'm beautiful now compared to it, but it doesn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I got this information.
[SPEAKER_04]: Who?
[SPEAKER_04]: From Wikipedia vibe, people rolling stone in article by now, Capello, and it was great, and the Atlanta Black Star.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to take you to Cummings, Georgia, and I want to introduce you to Tamla Horseford.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is born in St.
[SPEAKER_04]: Vincent and the Grenadines, and she moves to the Bronx in nineteen eighty nine.
[SPEAKER_04]: She then goes on to meet her husband in Florida, and she has a daughter from an earlier relationship, but then her and her husband have five boys.
[SPEAKER_04]: really intense.
[SPEAKER_04]: A lot of boys in that family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's two thousand eighteen and she's forty years old mother of five and her youngest is four at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the moms in this football team are all hanging out and one of the moms birthday celebration is what she wants to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: She wants to have teenage sleep over party.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which sounds fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, all the moms come.
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, some moms, you don't have to sleep over.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the idea is, let's all drink.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's all have fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's not worry about getting home.
[SPEAKER_04]: Have a breakfast the next morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's one of the moms, forty-fifth birthday and it's November third, twenty-eighteen.
[SPEAKER_04]: She gets to the party and there's an article that says she gets there.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's an article that says she gets there at ten.
[SPEAKER_04]: Either way, what we know is she makes dinner for her family and then she comes to this party.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the party is consisting of nine women, two men, and one husband.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the one husband only dropped off and picked up his wife.
[SPEAKER_04]: The other two men are like boyfriends and friends of the host or whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the boy Jose Barrera, I believe as the boyfriend of the host.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so he's there with his guy friend, whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Tamla shows up.
[SPEAKER_04]: She brings her overnight bag.
[SPEAKER_04]: She has a bottle of tequila and she gets there and she changes into her white onesy pajamas with paw prints on them.
[SPEAKER_04]: The moms are drinking.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're laughing.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're watching football.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're playing cards against humanity.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's videos of them singing happy birthday.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's photos of them sitting on the couch together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Having a good time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And according to those at the party,
[SPEAKER_04]: Tamla is the only habitual smoker.
[SPEAKER_04]: So occasionally she would go outside to the balcony and she would smoke cigarettes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Apparently she would also smoke weed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And some of the women called her like the female Bob Marley.
[SPEAKER_04]: The host's boyfriend, the sky Jose Barrera.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's this pre-trial officer.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I guess he didn't really approve of the weed smoking.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway,
[SPEAKER_04]: The event seems fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: Photos are taken.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's eleven thirty and people start leaving for the night who are not staying overnight.
[SPEAKER_04]: And those who are staying the night start going to bed over the next couple of hours.
[SPEAKER_04]: The host in Barara, I don't know the host name.
[SPEAKER_04]: The women's names were taken out of these articles and I figure you probably don't need to know them necessarily.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the hosted her boyfriend, Jose Barara, go to bed at one thirty in the morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then another mom whose husband is getting her at one forty seven in the morning, she heads out and she sees Tamla eating a bowl of gumbo and Tamla says that before bed she's going to go smoke a cigarette and go to sleep.
[SPEAKER_04]: The home has a home security system which registers the back door opening and closing at one fifty seven in the morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody's asleep.
[SPEAKER_04]: The next morning at eight forty five.
[SPEAKER_04]: The hosts aunt who lives in the house.
[SPEAKER_04]: She goes downstairs into the kitchen to make her morning cup of coffee.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she looks outside the window to the backyard and she sees something strange.
[SPEAKER_04]: She sees Tamla Horstford lying face down and motionless in the grass under the porch in her pajamas.
[SPEAKER_04]: She immediately runs to her niece and tells her something was wrong with her quote, friend from the islands.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I said, she was born in the Caribbean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, feels a little racially loaded, still.
[SPEAKER_04]: It does feel racially.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're gonna find out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know about this morally nickname.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know about this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do know about this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've read about it, but not extensively.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you're like going through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do know that there's a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: That really made.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, spoiler, I mean, I was, what is important to know at this sleepover?
[SPEAKER_04]: I was gonna say this later, but what's important to know to this sleepover is that Tamla is the only black woman there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So these microaggressions of calling her the female Bob Marley and this ant saying you're friend from the islands.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's just certain things that just feel bad, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's eight fifty nine in the morning and
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a nine-one-one call from Jose Barara.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the call, she says she's not moving one bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's not breathing.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's completely faced out in the yard.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is stiff.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was drinking and it looks like I'm guessing maybe she fell off the balcony.
[SPEAKER_04]: He also mentions a small cut on her wrist, suggesting it might be self-inflicted, and a woman's voice is heard on the call saying, that maybe she fell from the balcony.
[SPEAKER_04]: The police get their eight minutes later at nine o'clock and she's gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is not alive.
[SPEAKER_04]: When the police inform their husband, when the police inform Tamla's husband,
[SPEAKER_04]: This is where it gets challenging because they do not corner off the crime scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: They do not preserve the crime scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't know if it's a crime scene at this point.
[SPEAKER_04]: But early on in the investigation, a police officer will tell her husband, hey, she tripped over some garden edging.
[SPEAKER_04]: and had a fatal injury.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the aunt who lives there was like, yeah, I've stumbled on it in the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they say, so that I'm not dead because that's not how you die.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not how you die.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so
[SPEAKER_04]: They bring the coroner over and they find multiple injuries related to blood force trauma.
[SPEAKER_04]: They see she has an incredibly high blood alcohol level.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some reports say it's like point two, three, eight, which is incredibly high.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's this time after they tell the husband that she fell over some lawn edging.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's when they see the blunt force trauma, they go, oh, she must have fallen from the balcony, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what killed her.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the cause of death is listed as multiple blunt force injuries and acute ethanol poisoning, which is acute ethanol intoxication, which is alcohol poisoning.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we do know based on the alarm system that she opened the door and closed it at one fifty seven in the morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now the question is, is if she some article, it was a little confusing, but I wasn't able to determine if it opened again and closed again or for just opened and stayed opened and then closed.
[SPEAKER_04]: But either way, that's what they believe happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: They believe she went out for a cigarette at two o'clock in the morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she fell off the balcony.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe she was sick.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's no railing on the balcony.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a four foot railing on the balcony.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I see.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the idea that she was sitting on that railing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she might have been sitting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're gonna cancel.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't be standing and fall over a railing that's for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: If she's, if she's drunk and she falls over, if she's leading over, maybe she's feeling sick, maybe she tips over.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm never, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like up at my boobs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't lean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like science says, gravity would not do that work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So at this point, the initial conversation her husband has and then finding out that they changed it that she fell something just doesn't feel right with the family.
[SPEAKER_04]: They feel like she didn't get enough of an investigation.
[SPEAKER_04]: They also don't like the initial autopsy findings.
[SPEAKER_04]: They think there's more.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not attributing this cut on her wrist, things like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's also interesting is that her blood alcohol level being that extraordinarily high.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is videos of that night of her singing happy birthday and someone with that high of a blood alcohol level would possibly be incoherent would possibly be getting sick.
[SPEAKER_04]: It just doesn't totally add up with how with in her faculties she is.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, she's having a bowl of gumbo with her friend leaving at one forty seven in the morning shortly before it just seems
[SPEAKER_04]: in Congress with this idea that she was so drunk she sat on the balcony she sat on the railing and fell over.
[SPEAKER_04]: How could no one hear her fall?
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
[SPEAKER_04]: People went to bed at one thirty in the morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: If she falls at two o'clock in the morning, was really nobody around to hear her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Could have fifteen to twenty foot fall be really responsible for all these injuries that we see on her body.
[SPEAKER_04]: Additionally, the crime scene or the scene of the incident was not preserved.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the position her body fell in.
[SPEAKER_04]: didn't look like she fell.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the way they described it as both of her feet were facing in one direction.
[SPEAKER_04]: Her arm was at a Kimbo and her head was at a place where it felt like she was placed there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Barrera, who made the initial nine one one call, he told investigators that he touched the body and that he moved her leg while trying to figure out if she was alive.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that might account for the position that she was lying in.
[SPEAKER_04]: He also said in an interview that he found and moved the unlit cigarette.
[SPEAKER_04]: and lighter that was on the deck before he saw her body.
[SPEAKER_04]: So now we have this lack of preservation and these last moments of her as what the police say, these objects and all these things are moved which just feels
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's not telling the whole story and nobody knows the whole story.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because the police believed the death was an accident, there was no evidence that was fingerprinted.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Barrara, Jose Barrara on the call, he says that there were security cameras that were installed and they were pointed at the backyard, but the batteries were dead and the cameras were not recording.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: So while they have this security system, there's no video.
[SPEAKER_04]: During the autopsy, they did not do a rape hit.
[SPEAKER_04]: They did not look for any evidence of sexual assault.
[SPEAKER_04]: They did not take any fingernail clippings.
[SPEAKER_04]: So these like cuts on her arm that they believe she got on the way down from this house.
[SPEAKER_04]: It also, they think it could have been defense wounds.
[SPEAKER_04]: The family calls for a second autopsy and that is carried out by the Georgia Bureau of Investigations, the GBI.
[SPEAKER_04]: And while the autopsy is being done, because it takes time, it's not an overnight thing, news of this spreads on the internet and speculation of foul place spreads online.
[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the reasons they have to believe that there is foul play is because two months after her death, Jose Barra, the person who called nine one one, he was fired from his job at the county court.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was a court officer.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they fired him because he was accessing the incident accident.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was accessing the incident report internally on multiple occasions.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the incident report in relation to Tamela's death.
[SPEAKER_04]: He kept referring to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like tampering with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the there that alleged?
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't know if he's tampering with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's fired.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why do you keep going back to this incident report?
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you covering something up?
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you worried how something appears?
[SPEAKER_04]: And those can be true, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like as soon as speculation of what happens, maybe
[SPEAKER_04]: He is checking to make sure nothing looks suspicious, but the fact that he goes back and looks is an at least suspicious.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's also accessing, am I saying that word, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Accessing.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's also accessing a report about a stalking incident involving his girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know if his girlfriend had alleged there was a stalker, but he's using his position in this court as a way to access these documents that he shouldn't be fucking accessing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hundreds of people start sharing her hashtag calling for justice.
[SPEAKER_04]: This internal, this, this family requested second autopsy say that she has injuries to her head neck and torso.
[SPEAKER_04]: They discover cuts to her face, wrist, hand and lower legs and elaceration to the right ventricle of her heart.
[SPEAKER_04]: The toxicology report, they find THC anxiety medication and a blood alcohol level of point two, three, eight, which again is extraordinarily high.
[SPEAKER_04]: The police would go on to interview thirty people, including friends, family, and other people at this party.
[SPEAKER_04]: However, on February, twentieth, you're birthday.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Over two months after her death, the case was officially closed and ruled as an accidental death.
[SPEAKER_04]: The family is not happy with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: In relation to Jose Barrera, his lawyer says curiosity got the better of him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our clients are completely innocent.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was not murder.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was not anything other than a tragic accident.
[SPEAKER_04]: They cite no foul play.
[SPEAKER_04]: The explanation from the police of the time of revealing this verdict.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it's a verdict, but revealing their findings is they said,
[SPEAKER_04]: This police officer goes it's a party.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was drinking.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was drinking.
[SPEAKER_04]: Most of the party goers had gone to bed at the time and she was on the deck alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: The case was seemingly closed.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was in early, two thousand nineteen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Fast forward to a over a year later and it's twenty twenty and we are in the heat of the George Floyd anti police brutality protests in twenty twenty and this
[SPEAKER_04]: woke up a lot of feelings that Tamla's case didn't get the attention or consideration and fully deserved.
[SPEAKER_04]: And just to highlight at that time, we have Ahmad Arbery who is in Georgia.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we are in Georgia.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also bring out a Taylor's case.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's like a lot of names that are coming out and we're calling into question, what happened around these cases?
[SPEAKER_04]: We have this black woman who died mysteriously and someone was on the inside and the police wrapped it up pretty quickly and the family was really dissatisfied with how that happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also, to talk about where we are at, locationally, we're in Cummings, Georgia.
[SPEAKER_04]: Coming's Georgia has a really bad history of racial injustice.
[SPEAKER_04]: It experienced a racial cleansing in nineteen twelve when two black men were accused of crimes against white women and the whole black population was driven out and it remained mostly white for decades later.
[SPEAKER_04]: White supremacists gathered there as recent as nineteen eighty seven.
[SPEAKER_04]: In nineteen ninety there were only fourteen black residents in the county and as of I think the time of her death there eighty five percent of the population was white
[SPEAKER_04]: What's also interesting is, in twenty-fourteen, the coroner who, the deputy coroner at the time of her death, he resigned from the police force, a nearby police force in twenty-fourteen, after distributing photos of himself posing with mami dolls.
[SPEAKER_04]: Two years later, he is in photos with the sheriff that is leading this campaign or leading this investigation.
[SPEAKER_04]: After the sheriff gets elected, he is appointed deputy coroner.
[SPEAKER_04]: June fifth, twenty-twenty, Tamla's family attorney writes a letter to Tamla's husband, Leander, saying that according to his team's investigation into the details of the case, that it strongly suggests homicide.
[SPEAKER_04]: It said,
[SPEAKER_04]: Witness statements are in conflict, a potential suspect handled the body as well as the evidence prior to law enforcement arriving.
[SPEAKER_04]: Evidence was disposed of and no inquiry followed.
[SPEAKER_04]: The scene was not preserved.
[SPEAKER_04]: He also says that her injuries were consistent with those of the physical struggle.
[SPEAKER_04]: but that the absence of photos from the initial autopsy prevented a definite conclusion.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Atlanta journalist published the letter a couple days later.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, we are in a, we are in this reckoning moment where once this hits the internet, it spreads like wildfire.
[SPEAKER_04]: At this point, some of the women at the sleepover are receiving death threats.
[SPEAKER_04]: and accusations that they had a hand in her death.
[SPEAKER_04]: Protesters in Cummings, Georgia, include her name alongside the other black Americans who were killed by police.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is a change.org petition that is created to reopen the case and it collects more than seven hundred thousand signatures very quickly, including names like wrappers, TI, Fifty Set, I guess Kim Kardashian.
[SPEAKER_04]: They all shared the case and they're all asking for a second investigation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it spreads extraordinarily quickly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Seven days after this letter was sent, the local police send a letter for the case to be reopened.
[SPEAKER_04]: The local police are like, hey, we stand by our investigation, but we understand it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we're happy for you to reopen it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we believe that it should be investigated by the Georgia Bureau of Investigations, the GBI.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because we want a second,
[SPEAKER_04]: impartial party to lead this investigation.
[SPEAKER_04]: We want an independent law enforcement agency and the case was reopened June eighteen so this is happening very quickly.
[SPEAKER_04]: They spend the next year looking into the case.
[SPEAKER_04]: determining if there is any bad action, what happened, and a year later, July, twenty-eighth, twenty-one, the investigation concluded and they decided not to pursue any criminal charges.
[SPEAKER_04]: and the case still remains that it was an accidental death.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is, of course, a lot of conspiracy theories online.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is, of course, a lot of anger surrounding this case.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what's heartbreaking is that these six kids of hers, her daughter and her five children and her youngest was four, lost a mother.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was the life of the party.
[SPEAKER_04]: She liked to laugh, she liked to dance, she liked to have fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if she'll ever get justice because at this point, I don't think there's anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's not enough evidence to convict.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even if they believe that this person did something bad or nefarious, to prove it in the court of law, I think would be near impossible considering the crime scene wasn't preserved and all these things that they should have taken from her like nail clippings and things like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: they never did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now it feels like it's too late.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it could have been an accident, but because we're not able to rule out the possibility based on evidence that was it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now we just are left with a big question mark over our heads and asking what did happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's not a ton of information, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think obviously the racial politics plan part one because she is the only black woman in this photo.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in a historically racist town, additionally like
[SPEAKER_04]: the way the police handled it, as well, felt like she was neglected and not cared for.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this case was not fully properly investigated as it should have been.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's also, we've talked about this too.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a really small town.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure these police forces don't know how to necessarily, they're not used to preserving a crime scene, perhaps.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've talked about that with your dad, where it's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: towns will not ask for help from bigger fish to come and help with these cases if they think it's open and shut.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in that, that leaves a lot of questions that are not answered and cannot be answered.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, that's so stressful.
[SPEAKER_04]: it is and it's really sad because this family is left with a lack of closure and always asking the question what happened and always feeling like maybe somebody did something and they're not yeah yeah there's no justice I hate that
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a really uncomfortable story.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I had seen it around a bit as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, oh, I have to figure out.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to get all the information.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, I'm sure there's more theories on Reddit and stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just these reports that I read.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't think there's a lot of information to be gleaned from it, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously not.
[SPEAKER_04]: And these women were, the women at the party ended up, I think, suing
[SPEAKER_04]: her friend because her friend was going online and calling out these women and so they were receiving death threats like wow the messiness of it too also like it affected and it's just heart it's just so sad mm-hmm oh I hate that I just had a story
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope one day they solve it magically.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you never know.
[SPEAKER_01]: The backhand happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's hold that happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: We hold that hope.
[SPEAKER_04]: We hold that hope that the family can get closure and whatever form of justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got my story.
[SPEAKER_01]: From Ranker, Wikipedia, and Murderpedium.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's the story of Julia Martha Thomas, who was a schoolteacher, twice we'd owed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And no, is she killing him?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the late, eighteen hundreds and no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that we know of.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's in Richmond, London.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has this cutie cottage next to a place called the Hole in the Wall pub.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds so cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's in her fifties.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a smart dresser.
[SPEAKER_01]: People think she's eccentric because she does
[SPEAKER_01]: crazy things, Carrie, like, leave town and not tell her friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just decides to travel sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she'll come back and they'll be like, you are a wild girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do whatever you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, you know what I do?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have that much money, but I really like to have a maid.
[SPEAKER_01]: So on January, in eighteen, seventy nine, January, twenty ninth, she hires Kate Webster to be her servant.
[SPEAKER_01]: and Kate Webster's deal is she's like, hi Julia, I used to be married to a sea captain and I had four kids but all my kids died and my husband died and it's really sad and she's like, okay, I'll share it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll share it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll share it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate's real deal is that she moved all around London with all kinds of aliases, web, webster, Gibbs, Gibbons, Lawler.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's always getting arrested the first time when she was fifteen for Larsonie.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she spent some time in Wham's Worth Prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she got arrested for Larsonie again and got another imprisonment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just if you look at her track record, she's just getting arrested a lot for Larsonie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Julia doesn't do a background check and she's like, hey, and you do a got the job in the eighteen hundreds.
[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't go to Google at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you believe?
[SPEAKER_04]: She doesn't go on LinkedIn.
[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't go on LinkedIn.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just hires this woman that says she's a widower and she's working there for two months and Julia's feeling like you're not good at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no notes and she and
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate's running around complaining about Julia saying that Julia annoys her all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, God, my boss is like, on my ass saying I'm not doing a good job, but I'm following me and being like, you're doing that wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, I don't like her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they don't like each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: And which is exactly what you want is a living nanny.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a living a maid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a good job.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'll make her redo a room because she'll come into the room and check it and be like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know Kate, it's not clean.
[SPEAKER_01]: So could you actually clean at this time?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Kate will be like, God, you're such a bitch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So finally, after a couple of months, Julia says to Kate, look, you're fired.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not going great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or according to her journal, she says, today I gave Katherine morning to leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate says, can I stick around and work for you till March second, just a couple more weeks?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Julia's like, yeah, yeah, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but this Sunday you usually have
[SPEAKER_01]: half a day off and then you come and you help me get ready for church.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Kate's like, yeah, and then Kate goes to a bar all morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love what she does on her day off and then comes in the afternoon, but really late.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a really big fight when Kate gets there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Julia shows up in church and is telling everybody, oh, that Kate, like she was late, she made me late for church.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had this big fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is just the worst.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says that when I, you know, I reprimanded her when she got home late and she went nuts on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to this woman is out of my hair.
[SPEAKER_01]: She shows up home from church around nine o'clock and Kate's there and according to Kate, this she says that Julia came in when upstairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I storm after her.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a big fight and at the height of us having this altercation, I just throw her down the damn stairs and
[SPEAKER_01]: She gets really upset and I get upset and I lost control of myself and I don't want her to scream.
[SPEAKER_01]: She screaming at me so I then strangled her.
[SPEAKER_01]: and choke her and throw her down on the floor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whoa, whoa.
[SPEAKER_03]: This just doesn't seem so nice.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And very, very mad at her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And according to the neighbors, they did hear a big thud next door that they thought was a chair falling over.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next thing that Kate decides to do, because now she's killed Julia, is to chop her head off.
[SPEAKER_01]: with a razor and with a razor and a carving knife and cut up the whole body and then boil water in a copper pot and put a lot of the body inside to boil it and she said I just I opened the stomach with a carving knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: I burned up as much of the parts as I could.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile the neighbors were like wow something smells
[SPEAKER_01]: very, very bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she can't fit Julia's head and be into these containers.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to take to throw everything out.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to throw everything in in the garbage in a nearby town.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she can't fit at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's getting creative.
[SPEAKER_01]: She buries the head under the hole in the wall sails, which is close to their house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then
[SPEAKER_01]: Right after killing her and disposing of a bunch of the body, she goes to see her old neighbors, the porters, who she hasn't seen in six years, and she shows up wearing Julia's clothes, and has like Julia's luggage, which has remains of Julia in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, hi, you guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I missed Thomas and they're like, oh, we haven't seen you in a long time and she's like, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I missed Thomas.
[SPEAKER_01]: I married.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but then I was widowed and I got left this really nice house in Richmond by my aunt.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you guys want to go to a bar with me?
[SPEAKER_01]: I love going to bars and they were like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and then on the way to the bar, she's like, hang on, I just have to get rid of this bag I have and throws it in the river teams while they go inside the bar to drink.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they don't see her do this, but she like trashes the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never recovered this part of the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she asks the young son, can you help me carry this box from the cottage I inherited from my aunt?
[SPEAKER_01]: to the train station.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they start to carry it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as they go across a bridge, she's like, actually, let's just throw it in the river.
[SPEAKER_01]: Red flags abound.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it says that she explained that away in a way that didn't make him suspicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't be like, help me carry this box across town and then be like, you know what, we're over the river.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just throw it in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to see.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you just need crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's wild.
[SPEAKER_04]: Should we just throw to the pub?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Throw it in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to the pub.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to the bucket.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that box they do find.
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets washed on a bank and the police get called right away and they're like, this is the trunk of a body minus the entrails inside and a leg minus a foot of a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Around that same time, another leg is found.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, this is the same person.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're finding this person's body parts everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: but they still don't know who it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they dub it, the Barnes mystery.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not sure who this person is, but their body has been chopped up and they're finding them all over the place.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a rumor that people start at some point that also, people start, they start at some point and they travel wide and far.
[SPEAKER_01]: that she boiled the body down to make lard, and said it was pig fat, but it was really Julia, and that she fed it to some people, and that she sold it to a pub and said this was her best drippings for my cooking.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, you're doing this for the pub.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine she did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's too impractical.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not, she's just trying to, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just taking advantage.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to get away with murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to wear her clothes and live in her house.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not trying to, as a hobby, do a weird, make people eat her thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for weeks after she kills Julia, she lives as Julia.
[SPEAKER_01]: In her home, wearing her clothes, calling herself Miss Thomas,
[SPEAKER_01]: And dealing with people that won't know and saying that it's her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she makes a deal with somebody to sell Julius furniture and a bunch of other stuff for a pub.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's opening called the rat called the rise in sun.
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is called the rising sun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: They cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the neighbors do know who Julia is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they haven't seen her in a few weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they start asking delivery guys that are pulling shit out of the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, who asked you to take this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, Ms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thomas, Julia Thomas did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the neighbors
[SPEAKER_01]: think to themselves, but we haven't seen Julia Thomas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then at some point one of these delivery men is able to point out Kate Webster.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's when the goose is cooked and they're like, oh, but Kate sees it happen and is like, yeah, and runs and beats it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the police get called and they search the cottage and there's blood stains.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's burnt finger bones inside the fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are fatty deposits inside the copper pot, which is probably where the rumor got started.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also a letter left by Kate.
[SPEAKER_01]: foolishly that has her home address in Ireland.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they now know who she is and where she's from.
[SPEAKER_01]: They give a description of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She does have a son.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're on the lookout for them and they figure out that they're in Ireland or they're riding to Ireland currently on a steamer.
[SPEAKER_01]: They beat them over there and get them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another piece of evidence that seals the deal is that there's a bonnet maker named Maria Durden.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I want to be very clear, Quinza's bonnet because Coa calls it a bonnet.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, a bonnet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And don't you picture she just makes bandanas?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really good.
[SPEAKER_04]: And where's I'm like a little bit Bushka?
[SPEAKER_01]: A bonnet maker named Maria talks to the cops and says, here's the thing, before Julia was killed a week before I was talking to Kate and she was telling me that she had a bunch of property in jewelry that her aunt had left her and she was in the market to sell it, which to them is now
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, this is pre-meditated.
[SPEAKER_01]: You knew you were going to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was not a heat of passion.
[SPEAKER_01]: You knew when she got home from church, you were going to kill her.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just didn't know how.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were sticking around when she fired you to find an opportunity to murder her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they go to Kate and they say, is there any reason we shouldn't kill you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's the eighteen hundreds.
[SPEAKER_01]: We think we should kill you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, actually, I'm so glad you asked.
[SPEAKER_01]: So glad you flagged that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't know what to do about that because it's still the eighteen hundreds in this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in church, they're like, uh, razor hand if you're a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come here, women.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get a group of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Name a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, you got to tell us if this broads a quick with child.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like quick with child.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, this is how we talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: It means really about to have a baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they get sworn in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so does the surgeon.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they all go into a back room.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they all examine Kate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like,
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't know if she's pregnant because there's no way we could know that, but she's not quick with child.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she's not about to give birth to a baby, we think.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, okay, okay, okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this, do this by a woman's organs once again.
[SPEAKER_01]: The president of the Obstetrical Society of London says that then protest and I quote the obsolete medical assumption that the unborn child is not alive until the so-called quickening.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically saying she could be pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really wacky where you guys are drawing this line and also what are all these women doing just saying they're feeling about whether this was so bizarre.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beyond.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nearly I don't feel anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just it's not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, we're gonna kill you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything you have to say?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, yes, it was actually the father of my child who made me do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's really abusive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He makes me do terrible things all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's led me into a life of crime, but it's all pressure to do things for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, okay, tomorrow you die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the next day, she says, ugh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it was actually just me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I take full responsibility.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't anybody else.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm the guy and they're like, yeah, we kind of knew that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they hang her, not Wandsworth prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the hangman uses a newly developed method he's excited to try called the long drop technique.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it will make her die instantly instead of hanging there till she dies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they make her, I imagine it's a long drop is the technique.
[SPEAKER_04]: How did you, how did you find that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I just reasoned, I reasoned through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just looked at the key words and the sentence and started to get sure what that might mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So after they, after they, I don't know, are like, yep, you're dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know if you're pregnant, but we do know you're dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: They bury her in an unmarked grave in the prison exercise yard.
[SPEAKER_01]: which seems strange.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, well, it's two birds with one stone.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can kind of get people are working out, dipill a dig in a hole.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good afternoon, Jim.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they roll a big black flag over the prison wall, and everybody cheers and knows that justice has been done.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a very, very big story at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: All the presses covering it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because someone who's killing people, people like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, did you know, my dad and two sows was around?
[SPEAKER_01]: They create a hole.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do access to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they're like, do you want to see the Richmond murderous?
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's songs that people sing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know to what melody, but that's never stopped me before.
[SPEAKER_00]: The terrible crime at Richmond at last on Katherine Webster now has been cast, tried and found guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: She sentenced to die from the strong hand of justice.
[SPEAKER_00]: She cannot fly.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's tried all excuses, but to no avail about this in murder, she's told many tales, she's tried to throw blame on others as well, but with all her cunning at last she has fell.
[SPEAKER_04]: Lynn, H.J.
[SPEAKER_04]: Posner, really incredible work.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yes, your middle niches are H.J.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's more rumors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you believe it that people are seeing a ghostly nun that hovers over where
[SPEAKER_01]: Julia Thomas was buried, which is only a weird, because I don't think Julia was a nun.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, there's just a little bit of a ghost nun praying for her.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was Irish.
[SPEAKER_04]: She could have been Catholic.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so they're like, a nun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember that they didn't find all of her, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, of Julia.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where it gets even weirder.
[SPEAKER_01]: Flash forward,
[SPEAKER_01]: Guess who buys a house right by the Mayfield Cottages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nick next door to the Mayfield Cottages where this murder took place.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alan Rickman.
[SPEAKER_01]: David Addonborough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, next to the hole in the wall pub, which closed in two thousand seven, but
[SPEAKER_01]: Sad pubs are closing in the UK, but it was bought by David Adamboro and he's like, I'm going to redevelop this adorable pub.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for using your money for good sir David Adamboro.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh sir David Adamboro, I forgot to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Speak with distinction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that he moves in and then in October of twenty ten they're excavating to help build out this pub and they find
[SPEAKER_01]: a woman's skull that had been buried there for a very long time could be even a hundred and thirty three years it was at least forty and everybody's like I bet that's Julia Thomas is no one ever found her head and that broad Kate Webster said she buried it here and so they asked the Richmond police like what should we do with this head and they're like will look into it and then they do carbon dating and they're like this school is from between sixteen fifty and eighteen eighty
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has fracture marks that are consistent with Kate's story of how Julia died, and it has low collagen levels, which means it could have been boiled for a time before being deposited here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they conclude, like we can't do DNA testing, but we're gonna say, this is Julia's had.
[SPEAKER_01]: David, sir, David, Adam, Burrow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whoa, I was shocked when she decapitated the body when you said with a razor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's a lot of tools.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know, but the razor, I was like, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: She did phrase that that she just used a razor for the head.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then she pulled out all that other stuff for the rest of the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I'm kind of editorializing because in like, bitch, there's no way you would all those other tools and use the razor for the head.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole thing shocking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the story.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whoa, that's incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, thank you for telling that story.
[SPEAKER_04]: You told it in such a good way.
[SPEAKER_04]: You told it in such a fun way.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think good work.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they sang.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you sang, uh, what if you give the people what they want?
[SPEAKER_04]: Truly a hero, what they want.
[SPEAKER_04]: We should stop recording and we should record our Patreon episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Goodbye.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do even!