[UNKNOWN]: you
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Marvel Vision, a podcast about Marvel, the MCU, and right now, the final three episodes of Iron Hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Alex.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Justin.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Pete.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't watched them on Disney Plus, go watch them.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are called Bad Magic, Hermes, a glitch, and the past is in the past.
[SPEAKER_02]: The past is the past.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it a karma's glitch, not karma's a glitch?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's I think it's karma's ugly.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll have to work this out somehow.
[SPEAKER_02]: No way of settling it here on the podcast, but regarding this way, these are the final three episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go watch them.
[SPEAKER_02]: The broad overview here is biggest product overview.
[SPEAKER_02]: Final showdown between iron heart and the hood iron heart powers up with some magic armor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, executive stain powers up with electrical powers.
[SPEAKER_02]: This big showdown at the white
[SPEAKER_02]: castle.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called the earnest goes to jail power set.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then yeah, she powers up, but by the end, after beating the hood who is really losing it, we get the reveal.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have been waiting for since twenty twenty one, I believe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mufisto joins the Marvel Universe courtesy Sasha Baron Cohen and shocker of shockers makes a deal with reread to bring back Natalie her AI who got lost in the process but actually the real Natalie comes back meanwhile I'd be remiss not to mention we also get the introduction of Zelma Stanton who was a character from the doctor strange comics
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll read your academy among others in here.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a big part of the big mid-credits scene where the hood comes to see her setting up and this is pretty exciting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, obviously, see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's
[SPEAKER_02]: start broad we did the same thing for the first three chunks of episode three episodes but i'm sure there are different opinions here i can kind of a predict which direction pizza going based on certain character appearances i could do it
[SPEAKER_01]: We should grab and give our own feeling we should give each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I can also give you your, oh, really.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got a crystal ball.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'd love to know like the crystal.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just overall thought on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we were mixed trying to be positive as probably the way I described it for the first three episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how are you feeling after all six?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me let me say real just off the jump.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like we talked about I was pretty down on the first three.
[SPEAKER_01]: This continues to be the marvel formula of late where everything's a little underbaked and a little overstuffed.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I thought the last episode of this series was was pretty great and really like
[SPEAKER_01]: The themes the struck the themes are good in this show and the structure is almost there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just the dialogue at times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, what is this?
[SPEAKER_01]: The first idea?
[SPEAKER_01]: No one likes like this or talks like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think
[SPEAKER_01]: If they had just made this series about science versus magic, and someone from a science background having to let go and trust the magic, I think that could have wrapped in a lot of the emotional themes that they were trying to do that felt disparate and never really landed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think the stuff they landed in the finale, I thought, was like a good show and a good ending.
[SPEAKER_01]: A dark, like horror movie style ending for a Marvel show, I think is very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pete, what about you?
[SPEAKER_04]: I really liked Zelma.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought she was a great character.
[SPEAKER_04]: And even though the mid credits was whatever, I was happy to see her again.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think she is great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was rooting for this the whole time, but then I just kept getting kicked in the nuts and eventually you got to just walk away.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's what it is when you like go to work just a bunch of kicks of the nuts and you know, work is kind of like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a rough sometimes, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's nuts, nuts home.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do work at one of those nuts stands in Times Square, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it sounds for nuts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're kicked in the nuts and then you go sell nuts all day long.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like if you haven't been to Coney Island There's this thing called shoot the freak, but in this case, it's Pete and you get to kick him in the nuts for was it five bucks now?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you charge?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, it's twenty bucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's twenty bucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and your rich I believe is
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if you get some good points here, Justin I'll double down on some of the stuff I said with the first three episodes that
[SPEAKER_02]: thematically this was all over the place and I'd like the fact that it had more ideas that less ideas but like you were getting at I don't think really brought anything together in a cohesive or coherent way which it was a little frustrating because there was a lot of things that I did think
[SPEAKER_02]: were interesting, like the place that Ezekiel and Riri got to was interesting, losing Natalie and then trying to get her back is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The hood, less interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was, I think, one of the biggest frustrations for me over the course of the show is I really like Anthony Rabos, love the hood as a character.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just became less and less interesting as time went on and they kept trying to pump him up.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like we got to take down the hood.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is really important to take that hood.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he didn't even really seem to be coming for him.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was just going to like come for them eventually sometime down the road.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there wasn't enough to that particular conflict.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, he didn't know she was alive, but I do think that like he did the I did enjoy Ramos I I thought also the part where like they took the mansion and it was a funny bit where like he's kind of walking all badass and then You know what's his name Slade Slate what is it stain?
[SPEAKER_04]: Stain was like, sorry, punch of people.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought there was a fun kind of bit and a cool kind of like shot where it was like a fun kind of juxtaposition.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will throw out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought the first ten minutes of the fifth episode, basically the whole sequence started for the beginning in White Castle building up to that action sequence outside.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like a little bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's been a great case.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's very impressive.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's who I was really into to take it down a crate.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, come on.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was into the idea of white castle period.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing further there.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I thought that whole sequence builds really nicely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like first of all, good relationship between Zelma and Riri right at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was starting.
[SPEAKER_02]: small if the white castle, just like a very normal.
[SPEAKER_04]: And depending on her love of white castle, it was nice.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like starting with like a very typical conversation between kids, they're bringing up some plot stuff and whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then slowly building the tension of oops, a couple of members of the gang come in, taking them down in a really smart, interesting way that tie you to what Riri does.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then building it up with the bomb, lady clown and then building it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Found her names
[SPEAKER_01]: She's my least favorite character in a long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree that she's not great, but at the same time like that was cool because you have reread basically die hard at your way around to white castle, try to figure out how do I use my brain to get out of this situation and then building to the armor, punching the truck, is equal, steam, kick your ass.
[SPEAKER_02]: That flip-off move with the truck was amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like it just kept building and building and building, but this ties it to you one of my biggest problems with the series and it was interesting to hear you say what you said Justin about the magic versus tech conflict because the thing that really works with me about reread that we barely got it all in the series, but we did get it this Ted minutes is her using her mind to get
[SPEAKER_02]: out of situations work around ranks.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's most of the time it's either been brawn, somebody else giving her an idea or her making a deal with the devil or just full throttle going into magic and characters are allowed to grow in shades.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got this great, we know reread from the comics.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got this great set up from her in Wakanda forever that she is a genius.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how they set up the beginning of the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we barely gotten that here at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything, including like creating Natalie was an accident that she did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and her main character trait is being overwhelmed and having a mental breakdown, essentially, throughout five episodes of this series.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just... Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to speed pass something.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to kind of talk a little bit more about White Castle before we move out of here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what the people are.
[SPEAKER_04]: The people are literally crave casing it right now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, hey, man, if you're smart, you are.
[SPEAKER_04]: Listen, here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like there's this thing that can you hear that?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's the people that are chatting sack of ten, sack of ten.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know anything about these words.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know anything about these words.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyways, cheers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's what I'm saying, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: You love it so much, put a chicken ring on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a working knowledge of this, Alex?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you pulling a white castle?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I actually know there's stuff on that.
[SPEAKER_04]: There there is.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the show is a lot about AI, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And how you're supposed to react to it or you pro against whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they're in the White Castle, no White Castle employees.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's all automated, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the brought this up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had this note as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought that was fucked up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, very fucked up because my white castle, Janice, who worked behind the counter every time I saw her, we had a great time.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was just a big part of me going to white castle, but I also think that this show
[SPEAKER_04]: was back and forth in the AI thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes it was very pro.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes it was weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes it didn't address it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it kind of, I was like, oh, here's what he's used to maybe talk about.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, hey, the fact that good thing nobody's working here because otherwise, you know, Robo Adams.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, look what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry to interrupt you, but I know just like we can edit this out later, but I know are you proposing to Janice in this episode or are you doing it later?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you're doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I haven't seen Janice in years.
[SPEAKER_04]: I miss her very much because she's doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be setting up you have to propose to her on this podcast or is it on the podcast?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, probably another one.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we got to see if she's alive first before we do any proposing.
[SPEAKER_04]: But anyways, my point being is it was kind of back and forth and like, hey, I was right, hey, I was wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then she kind of had that talk with her maybe future boyfriend guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, he was like, yeah, he was like, yo, that was messed up, you know, delete her.
[SPEAKER_04]: She thought about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then it was like,
[SPEAKER_04]: felt like after talking with their family and having those moments in the shopping like hey I feel like I made a mistake by doing this AI thing you know and then it was taken away from her she tried and tried and couldn't do it again and it was like this thing of like I've got to let go I've got to learn how to let go people die it sucks I've got to move learn to move on and then at first opportunity she's like hell no I'm doubling down let's make a deal with the devil and it was just kind of like oh man I
[SPEAKER_04]: was a little frustrated that we weren't growing as much, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I hear you on that, like growing toward being like a hero, but the show set her up to make that choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: The show, like, she unabashedly to the point where we were like, it's very weird that she joined this gang.
[SPEAKER_01]: crime gang without thinking about it all and it's like she didn't think about it and if you take that choice as a true character choice of course you can take the deal with a devil and she does it to get to satisfy this thing that is bothering her with Natalie and I'd say it made me like that that idea progression much better but the whole time she's sitting with me for still and that's got to be a great pizza joint I mean if you keep going back to say what's got to be quality is going to be a great pizza joint but that was not Chicago pizza he was eating
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like a regular flat old pepperoni pizza.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it was like a grandma.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a square pie.
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a flat.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying it's not deep dish.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not deep to style, which is weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, you know, that's a kind of pizza in Chicago, though.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's my question for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know he's the devil because he's eating the wrong kind of pizza in Chicago?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or would it be more devilish to be eating Chicago style pizza?
[SPEAKER_02]: The grossest pizza in the world?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, here's this trick.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one likes Chicago pizza.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know if you what happened is everyone's like Chicago pizza versus New York and it was like a little bit of a fight with them when Detroit was like how about this this is a good version of Chicago pizza is like oh yes that is a good go back to what I was trying to say is this thing of like the whole time
[SPEAKER_04]: She, you think she's going to say no to the devil.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's going to be like, no, bro.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm not doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm not falling for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no, I'm doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then it's like at the end of the reveal is, oh, no, she's done her then we thought and not any close to being a better, you know, it's just like, oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_04]: It made her more interesting character, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Not to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Went the other way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm probably halfway between you guys here because I do think first of all we should talk about them a fisto of it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought Sasha Barricone was really good as Befisto and I wish I sent it to you like because he was doing like three once.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was purposeful.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a cool choice.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was this interesting thing you couldn't put your finger on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love the fact that like and they were very clearly presaging this throughout the series.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they're like foused posters on the wall or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that they just went for that, like a more theatrical version of the devil that you might see on the stage versus big red dude wearing his underwear with flames coming off of him, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's the best one.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not familiar because you've blocked him out of your brain.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what he looks like in the Marvel Comics.
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate the fact that it was just like an edict dude that was interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was really smartly done.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I did like those scenes with Anthony Ramos and later on with Dominique Thorne.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought they're really good.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were filled with tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: I loved his flippant like, wait, what am I going to have to give you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing you'll ever miss.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just throw them that off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't even work.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: My problem with the ending though is it doesn't resolve anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there was no dramatic arc that's finished off there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is very much outside the show, but the frustration of like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Next, if we see iron to hard again, it's going to be like doomsday or secret wars is literally at a go to be a go to the like, what are those demonic veins on your arms reread?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's deal with the fisto of the answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, they're not going to deal with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think the point of it wasn't to find a resolution on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a twist ending that was meant to really get us to lean in on this character, which I think I think it did and like it was purposefully unresolved.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think shows do that, hopefully
[SPEAKER_01]: So they can maybe get that next season, but like I don't mind that from a storytelling perspective because it did resolve her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't learn the lesson.
[SPEAKER_01]: She made the wrong choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the par.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the point of the character in this story that they're telling here.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was sacrificing all because of her guilt and you know downright obsession with Natalie.
[SPEAKER_01]: as the thing that's haunting her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she would be, she'd be willing to do anything to give that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: She crosses that heroic line to do the thing that she thinks she needs to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that to me is actually a nice mission statement that is a little bit different for a character.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they did a muddle job presenting that for a lot of this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I actually like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I thought the ending was really strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just want to say that I think the casting in this show is really impressive.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, when Mephisto was talking, I was like, don't say Mephisto.
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't say Mephisto.
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was like, Mephisto.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you fucking asshole.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I love it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was good casting thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I just while we're talking about that moment?
[SPEAKER_02]: I definitely, of course, thought about you, Pete, because I knew this was going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can feel it coming up, particularly what they're doing over the couple of episodes with Zaldives, like, oh, it's drama.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, it's not drama.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not drama.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not drama.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely going to be the fist out.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the fact that he
[SPEAKER_02]: This was one of those rare times where there was like pause for applause from the audience that it worked for me because he was like, I'm the fisto and then cutting, having the musical staying, then cutting to reread, being like, sorry, is that supposed to be something to be?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great punch line there because yes, the world nobody knows who that is or cares in any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I actually thought that moment was really well done as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: I also like to, you know, when she ripped the cape off of Amos there and he's like, you know, it hurts, you know, I thought that was all really well acted.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I can kind of go either way sometimes and I felt like it was done well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well let's talk about him because I do think no knock on him as an actor but the story just that he was the whole I think in the story like the and we talked about this a little bit they he's the villain they turned him into a protagonist for a lot of this show where like we're riding with him we're seeing why he made these choices bad bad parenting all of that reveal his cool though
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was fine, but like, I don't know, it just felt a little bit paint by numbers when I was like, make him big and scary, or make him like a dual protagonist with Regrie who have similar arcs of people on a path that is not good for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I do think that's what they were.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's just one, he's the, she's the sequel of the horror movie to the horror movie of Iron Heart for him, from his perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's about she made the same choice he did in is now on that path to get where she wanted so like there's there's potential there just they did a strange job with doing it and also the scheme of this series the season of the series of getting like startup to sign over their ownership to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like
[SPEAKER_01]: What this is like a kid break it up marriages you got my fist goes has dumb things that he does no matter the character this is this is Parker's idea and it's it's just it doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't we're the strings man
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, he just gave the person none of the, none of the characters stuff made any sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we talked about the Tuddle Lady, the fact that she was like, did he even have any dialogue just side to over her company?
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we had the guy in an heirloom, who had that very huge, huge security system that was based on heat and metal, like you kept that metal, does it make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: The Tuddle system didn't make it none of that, that whole art of the story could have been cut completely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess they took care of the security there, but the whole idea of like, well, I guess I don't have any other backup or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I gotta do this thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, none of that's gonna legally hold up and cord.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know we're living in a bad to see world or whatever, but it was all very weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: other part of it and i know i mentioned this on the previous episode but i felt like the whole dad thing was crazy exacerbated about the reveals with the hood the fact that the hood's like i have a really complicated relationship with my dad who hates me
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me never bring that up to a Zekeelstein who also has problems with his dad in any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And let's not talk to Riri about it who also had a good relationship with her dad, but lost him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the fact that they had those, clearly those three characters and those stories are in the show for that reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is no cross over there whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but it's not like you're going to stop being evil for a second to be like, let me tell you about your father.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did a show.
[SPEAKER_01]: The show did literally did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We spent so much time learning about how he became the hood.
[SPEAKER_01]: When in the at the end of the day, he was just another monster villain that we could have just made him like badass an evil and cut all of that stuff out.
[SPEAKER_01]: and just had it be a mysterious murderous evil thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it left more time to deal with other more interesting things.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the opposite direction.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're going to take that much real estate to focus on the dad stuff, figure out a way to make the villains, the villain and the anti-hero slash villain, the executive state is, whatever we want to consider him, connect in some way to our titular character.
[SPEAKER_02]: like actually connect those thoughts have those parallel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they need to say them out loud?
[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily, but it feels like the scripts maybe got whittled down so much that whatever connection was there got lost somewhere along.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just a real quick on, before you move on, Pete, I sorry, I didn't wrap you up.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's an original, there's an original sin in the idea that like superhero movies and TV shows need two villains.
[SPEAKER_01]: That way there's two, there's a mini-bubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbub
[SPEAKER_04]: This is, I just want to get back to the dad thing a little bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: The thing that worked for me was this, the, the, they didn't, I don't think they'd be just over the head with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: They showed the dad kind of all drinking this, you know, kind of whiskey and ice and then like later.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was doing the same thing when we were he showed up and I liked the mirroring of that like this whole time he's fighting to not be this person just like Stane is fighting not to be his dad and they both kind of end up being very much like them I thought that was an interesting kind of parallel play with the other thing I just want to say real quick is that
[SPEAKER_04]: the fact that like he was just like this you know the devil's able to use that what do you want and he is kind of biggest one was just like I want to be fucking richer than my dad I thought that was just like the way that they used that was interesting
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hear what you're saying here, Pete, but the problem is that like those paths don't cross in any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they are running parallel, but they don't impact or affect each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what you need to do with characters in a TV show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, you have one singular character, and that's the only thing you follow.
[SPEAKER_02]: which doesn't work most of the time as drama.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to have those characters clash with each other, change each other in some ways.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's what Justin loved about the show, which is interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like he didn't like the fact that reread didn't change at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm trying to say that was very frustrating.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I know you're not responding to what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking still about the dad thing, but right, but I'm trying to use that example to say that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're trying to know what's interesting that the thing that you didn't like is the thing that Justin liked about reread the fact that she didn't change.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that was the twist of the end is that she made the bad choice after we thought she had changed because I think there was a progression there because I think the big thing that she changed was she was like I'm gonna wreck this car
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like don't you dare destroy that fucking car to be there and then be wrecked.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So beyond Pete's feelings about the car.
[SPEAKER_03]: to John Lee's awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: The costume I also made probably talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think her armor was an upgrade and look now certainly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoyed him.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the problems that we have with the previous armor, but I did have two really big problems with that sequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: One ties back to the resources thing that I was talking about before.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that she's like where we're going to get all the parts to build my armor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this car will just take a part of car and turn it into magic armor and a janky garage, otherwise we don't have anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the most like I'm a writer is doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also, so what does she mean to you doesn't have?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like she's got all that money from the ice.
[SPEAKER_04]: She didn't spend all that money on the headphones.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe she did.
[SPEAKER_04]: Those are very nice headphones, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very good headphones.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the... Oh, gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: What was the other thing?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember what the other problem was about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it about the car being like a symbol for her father or was it stepfather?
[SPEAKER_01]: I forget.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was maybe her stepfather.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was my problem was time.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that like the hoods coming any second, let's take all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to turn this car into arbor and we'll work on it and we'll have a little montage sequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I did like the montage sequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the music was great too for the montage.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no, like, get up and go.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no urgency to anything that they were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, are you flew with a show called the A team?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, because that was a straight A team sequence.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, hurry.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're right on our trail.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, let's work and eat and also have a drink and then we'll have our armor done.
[SPEAKER_04]: We perfectly time to ready for when they show up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, if you start a montage, everybody knows time stops because music is playing so you can do whatever you need and then yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a lot of a lot of montages take as much time in real life to do as they do on the screen.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how like I say a lot of times during my day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sick of doing this work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's montage this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's just have this fact.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's done.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to say about the carpeting the step.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like the idea that like this, it was like we have your car and, oh, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she's like, let's ruin everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's armor that's also gonna get ruined.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I mean, I understand that there is a symbolic choice there, but I was like, ah, it does hurt a little.
[SPEAKER_01]: To be like, this is what the dad wanted for her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we get the, I actually like the scene that we get that Natalie shows her, the AI Natalie, and she's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: He can't erase the good memories to protect yourself from the bad memories.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that scene was cool, and I was like, oh, I like this, this dad character here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in the car came, I was like, oh, that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's garbage now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You wrecked all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: but I get it, you know, like the dad would be okay with the, you know, if he's, she's going to use the card to save the day, like maybe he wouldn't be okay with it, but part of him was like, you can't just rack this car or like, oh, no, just heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what else should we talk about?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we talk about Zoma a little bit because that's obviously a big part of these last chunk of episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was very surprised to see this character here and I was very surprised like there was a significant app up in, oh no, this is not an iron band show.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a Doctor Strange show in these last three episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: crazy way, like as soon as they got to statins, and they switched over to the magic thing, it started to feel more like agatha all along, which I guess is okay, but again, maybe not what I was expecting or wanting to see out of an iron manager's in show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the way that they did it, too, where it was very casual and arbitrary.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this feels like a Disney channel show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where it's like, today we're in magic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the way they're like, oh, no, did you just teleport us to a dimension I told you not to?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, what is the tone here?
[SPEAKER_01]: Feel crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say I did like the way they physicalize the magic, the way that Xama was sort of doing these sort of little moves.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was really cool and it was filmed well, those beats.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I did like, you know, the Agatha all along of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Once they got into the shop and then they went to the parallel universe and they were like, yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the mom like became cool with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I did like the kind of like we got to see the if re re was raised by like a different family and learn magic instead of science.
[SPEAKER_04]: That kind of Zelma re re relate that was kind of a cool
[SPEAKER_04]: those two to meet and that's why I was real happy to see him like asshole I was like oh this is gonna be great and then it's just all one south on me but
[SPEAKER_04]: started in a good place.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I like how you feel like the TV shows are happening expressly to you.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're the victim, you're the victim of this television.
[SPEAKER_02]: How often after you're watching a TV episode, do you call the cops and be like, hello, I'd like to report a TV episode that just happened to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Officer, I'd like to report a not kicking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you please come to my home?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, yes, P, you will be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It happens every now and then.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, what else from the episodes?
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously a lot of other stuff is going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: We should probably talk about the ending and mid credits and what they mean, but any other moments from the episodes you guys like to call out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just just a couple.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did like, I mean, the Zach character was weird throughout.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was felt important in the early episodes, but really was just as important as the kid who loaned the wagon to a bakery.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay, but I did like the moment of the Iron Heart Armor picking him up and bringing him to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was just a cool little idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: The scene where he was like, I'm mad at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, this is, I don't know quite by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a lot of like not quite buying, especially in the fourth episode I thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like I said, it progressed really nicely for me, except for clowns stood alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot in this series.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, clown stood up to the hood.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like, yo, you killed this guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was making moves.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something that didn't add her to anyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you guys think about the fact that Mephisto made a deal with Ringo?
[SPEAKER_02]: How you feel about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Pete?
[SPEAKER_02]: Ringo fan?
[SPEAKER_02]: You bummed?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was a real, you know, quite the reveal.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Ringo was, uh,
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was a fun line.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also liked the line.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, again, I really liked the first ten minutes in episode five.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's the blood sisters where they're like, here's a headline for you, girl, genius dies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, that won't make the news.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I was saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was just like a stupid thing to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: The exact sort of has stupid headline.
[SPEAKER_02]: They would say that and shooting back like, that's not it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you talking about, baby, laugh?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also really like the boba to pay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do that sequence after she punches the truck where she pukes out of the suit and that was really a great great punctuation on that particular part of the scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was, I know we mentioned this before, but I was very happy with Xavier's being horrified by Natalie.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was hoping that's what the reaction was going to be and I expected it, but I thought that was played really nicely because the fact that the mom was like, cool, hey, I sounds good.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're wrestling with no questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: No follow-ups.
[SPEAKER_02]: His was, I think, a more reasonable and emotional reaction that played out very nicely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, why don't we talk about the ending here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, Rie Rie has made a deal with the devil.
[SPEAKER_02]: She has Natalie back.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we get the mid-credit scene where the hood who is now powerless goes to Zelda and his own help with Xelmux.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's me and says, I know you don't know me at least not yet, but if you're up for it, how about a little apricot dabbara?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're lying.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're at idea across the board.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's what I think was going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was at some point a couple of shows that Marvel was developing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were not greenlit or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of them apparently was a strange academy show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Zelma Stanton was introduced to Dr. Strange by Jason Aaron and Chris Bachelot.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was a librarian for a while for Dr. Strange, but she was also used at the Spinoch Strait Academy, which is where Dr. Strange had a bunch of other
[SPEAKER_02]: Carval characters taught younger Marvel characters in the Marvel Universe, and she was a librarian and recruiter there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my guess is that was a way to set up those two characters to spin off into strange academy.
[SPEAKER_02]: But given that show has been indefinitely paused, they haven't canceled it because it was never green lit, but they've stopped development on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we're ever going to see that.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a bad strange academy can be fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, there's Natalie, like we talked about, and re-re-baking a deal with Bethisto, I also don't think we're going to refer to that in any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think we'll see Iron Heart again, probably in Doomsday or Secret Wars.
[SPEAKER_02]: At some point, she was going to be in Armour Wars, which
[SPEAKER_02]: was I maybe have this wrong was a TV show and then now is going to be a movie but the last time we heard anything about it was also like twenty twenty two so I'm very doubtful that's ever going to happen because I think that is not happening is would be was supposed to spin out of secret wars and everybody hated secret wars so yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's not secret wars, but you mean secret invasion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very similarly named things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Still a secret.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a secret.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone wishes they could have kept to themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't think we need to follow up on the veins art or arms or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we need to follow up on strange academy necessarily.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing gets those actors.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it does feel like we have to follow up on the fistrow in some way.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is, even beyond the outside speculation from fans, that's one of the biggest characters in Marvel.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the biggest villains in Marvel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think we're ever going to see him again?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or let's just know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at what movies do we have coming, fantastic four.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, then doomsday is like a year plus the year and a half later, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the only things that they've announced are fantastic for.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Spider-Man.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Doomsday and Secret Wars.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know there's a bunch of other like TBDs on the schedule, but that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they may be a TV nothings because I feel like they're chilling a little bit right now until they can see what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And plus they're spending a lot of money on Doomsday and Secret War.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, maybe they're just I don't know if they're going to be following up on much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is obviously like the big question mark going into fantastic for specifically, which probably will do well opening weekend, but we'll have to see how it sort of pans out because Brave New World and then Thunderbolts have increasingly done worse and worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if that pattern continues, we're not in a great place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I've said before, you know, I know this is a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Marvel podcasts, but I think like
[SPEAKER_02]: Doomsday and secret wars might be it, you know, or a total reevaluate should reboot after that if things are really not working, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it will be it, but I think it's just going to be different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe different at this point is better because of all the things we've talked about with this show with it, having problems that it doesn't need to have because it's doing too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they can be like, let's do things that just are themselves and not have to hit a whole run every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be great.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anything could be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always think you say will be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's bringing back all the old heads.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you love seeing a parade of things you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I love for AIDS.
[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing that I'll throw out there just pure speculation, just because I think this has the most likely hood of happening, is you could see Bethisto in a potential doctor strange three.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason I think we could see a doctor strange three is the second one did over a billion dollars.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's more of a reason for them to be like, yeah, let's figure out how to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Bethisto has tangled but doctor strange a bunch of
[SPEAKER_04]: He talks about Dr. Strange enough in the show to make you think there was another.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and let's throw out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Strange thing comes.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be a bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet between Dunesday and Secret Wars and a Dr. Strange three might be the bridge they want.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think it'll be a rainbow bridge?
[SPEAKER_02]: We shall see.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have no idea at this point, which obviously is a bummer of a note to end on here, but why don't we end here?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it for a very hard development.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it for the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Goodbye, everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just kidding.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back for a fantastic for in just a couple of weeks.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be talking about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the meantime, if you like to support this podcast on all the podcast, we do patreon.com slash comic book club.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, we do a live show every Tuesday night at seven p.m.
[SPEAKER_02]: Newsbook.
[SPEAKER_02]: And YouTube coming out, we will love to chat with you about Marvel, Apple Spotify, Android, or the app of your choice to subscribe.
[SPEAKER_02]: But listen and follow the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Comic book club live.com for this podcast and many more until next time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Badness.
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