[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, Your Host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Nazineen Moali.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey there, welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Dr. Nazanine Moolly, and you're listening to the start of a new series that many of you guys have been asking for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Over the years, we had incredible guests on this show, research, therapists, educators who've explored the science and psychology behind consensual non-monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And while those episodes sparked a lot of interest, one of the most common requests I get from listeners is this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can be here more stories from people who are actually living it?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're doing exactly that.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the next few episodes we're talking to people who are navigating non monogamous relationships, not just as researchers or professionals, but from their own lived experiences.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today, we're going to talk about monochemish relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: My guest is Carrie Jurislow, a bestselling author, podcast host and relational diversity advocate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Carrie is passionate about helping people
[SPEAKER_02]: step outside of the old shoots of relationships and into structures that truly reflect who they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her podcast relationship diversity explores everything from solar amory to monogamy to polyamory and she approaches it all with deep curiosity and respect.
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're exploring what it means to choose monogamy unpurpose, not because it's expected, but because it's a line.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about how to say connected with your evolving self, how to bring intentionality into long-term relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are interested in exploring monogamous, how can you navigate it with yourself and with your partner?
[SPEAKER_02]: And before we get started,
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank our sponsor, Wifey, part of the Wixen Media Group.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a sex therapist, I've seen firsthand how shame and misinformation often hold people back from exploring the kinds of relationships that might actually serve them.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I'm excited about Wifey.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're creating a dark, huge style content that showcases real couples navigating ethical non-monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: specifically through the lens of hot-wife life aside.
[SPEAKER_02]: Their stories are raw, real and human, and they include candid interviews, expert insights, and lived experiences that helped demystify this dynamic in a
[SPEAKER_02]: thoughtful, respectful way.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to learn more head over to their Instagram at wifi updates or visit their website at wifi.vng.studio and see all the wonderful videos that they have there and let us know what you think.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find a link to their website also in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let's get into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to another episode of Sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited to welcome Carrie Jerslow to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Carrie, welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited for this discussion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well,
[SPEAKER_02]: Many of our listeners, they wanted to hear from colleagues, other professionals that they are and non-monogamous relationships about how they go to their journey with their story bin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being so generous to share your personal experience with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I know that you talk a lot about
[SPEAKER_02]: how you transition, your relationship structure, one thing that sometimes people hear about a term that might be, they're not quite familiar.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a term monogamous.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us a little bit about what does that detail and how did you transition to that form of relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So monogamous was is a description of a type of relationship structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was coined by Dan Savage, who is a love and relationship in sex, columnist, and he also has his own podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was a way that he found to describe his relationship with his partner, Terry.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why it really worked for him was because he felt like what he was doing was not white monogamy, but it was also not quite polyamory or open relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of in this mid-range in between the two.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so monogamish seemed to really capture what he was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what monogamish is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not quite full monogamy as we know we've learned it to be and it's not fully open.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's somewhere in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that can be different for so many people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone will do it differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is why I absolutely love this term because I really believe that that's what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all are doing our relationships in our own way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this gives us the ability, the flexibility to create a structure that really works for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I came across monogamous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know that that's what I was doing because this was back in two thousand four.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had just gotten divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was, I had had a traditional monogamous relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I didn't even think that it was called that because at this point, I was really just going on what felt right to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I met this man and he was also going through a divorce.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had confided in me that he had been cheating on his wife for most of their marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had done, I had had a massive healing from my divorce up until this point where I healed a lot of my old relationship wounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really a transcendent three months that had me in a completely different place because my father had had an affair when I was twelve.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was really a triggering.
[SPEAKER_01]: experience for me, if this would have come, you know, three months before my healing journey, but it became, it came after.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when he confided in me that he had had this experience with this first wife, I was interested enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was enough good stuff between us that I said, I would like to start a relationship with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: However,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want any lying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just be honest with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: If that means that you want to have an experience with someone else, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just tell me, I want to know if anything came up with me, I will tell you the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was our journey into a monogamous structure, which I didn't even realize was that at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a really powerful and pivotal experience in my relationship journey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's so interesting that depending on where we are with ourselves and people disclose, go out of the relationship, it can come up different things, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That sometimes people get angry.
[SPEAKER_02]: They, as you said, our own wounds can get activated, but also here at many of my clients, they discover cock holding that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But oh, I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just turned me out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know what comes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the beauty of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also sometimes the harder aspects when we're going into something other than what we've known is really confronting these old belief systems.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is like my biggest message and what I work with my clients on
[SPEAKER_01]: is what our old belief systems that are not serving us, that we just took on because that's just what we were shown, but isn't really me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it was like I wanted in that experience to push myself to really question, you know, what does it mean if my partner
[SPEAKER_01]: has a sexual experience with someone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean about me?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is that bring up in me?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it really gave a great potential for me to grow and learn and heal some old stuff that wasn't working for me anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is interesting, what is interesting, you know, for many people, they often are an monogamy and then transition to monogamous.
[SPEAKER_02]: But with this person, it seems like you started from monogamous, from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you have any challenges with them?
[SPEAKER_02]: Have they?
[SPEAKER_02]: Building emotional intimacy because it was kind of like an earlier interrelationship and trusting that there are being open.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me more about how was that like with him?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, and yes, challenges, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: My God, there were so many challenges at that time because I was still really getting to a place where I was falling in love with myself, which I think is the most important thing of seeing myself as, you know, a good, I don't know, a good partner, someone who is sexy, you know, is kind of growing out of this little girl,
[SPEAKER_01]: image even though I was in my thirties just how I saw myself and so there was a lot of challenges and I do think that because we started from a place of honesty and we ended up having an eighteen month relationship so it was a pretty significant relationship
[SPEAKER_01]: We created a lot of hard to heart conversations that I don't think that he opened up to anyone until me, like to really show who he was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when someone is vulnerable, at least with me, that creates a lot of trust.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, every time, so we weren't with other people that much, but in the times that we were, it took a lot of host care after care is what they call it in, you know, the swinging world is a lot of after care.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had to come together to talk about what the experience was and to be honest with what it was bringing up with in each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't seem to have much trouble with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was with other people, but it was hard for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to work through a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The biggest thing that that relationship taught me was communication and how to be open.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm the kind of person that if I feel hurt, I hold my heart close to my chest and I will with whole communication which never helped.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he was pretty encouraging with wanting to know what was going on with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I learned how to communicate and that was like the biggest gift from that relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: How did he go about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like with him being vulnerable, kind of created openness.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell us more about how did you guys cultivate that good communication?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that his openness to hearing what I had to say helped me feel safe to express myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And over the eighteen months that willingness and what he was asking of me helped me actually become more confident
[SPEAKER_01]: in how I communicated and interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wrote a book called What Are They Always Break Up With Me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was because that was my experience up until that relationship was the guy always broke up with me and I tried to figure out, like, why is this happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, did figure that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in this relationship, I was the one who said, like, I think that we have
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it had everything we were going to have from this relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's, it's time to end it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the, his encouragement of me sharing myself helped me gain confidence to be able to share myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: So authentically and find that, oh, no, this relationship actually isn't working for me after eighteen months.
[SPEAKER_01]: It really wasn't till it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, when you said that you wrote that book sounds brilliant, like I bet that many of our listeners now they want to know what was happening there was that are you leaving to relationships soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm kind of curious like what what did you learn about that journey?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I said, my dad had an affair when I was twelve years old, very pivotal moment for a twelve year old.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my life before that, like pre-divores, pre-parents divorce was ideal.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't see anything going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never even saw my parents argue before.
[SPEAKER_01]: They never raised their voice to each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Within
[SPEAKER_01]: About six months it came out that my father was heading in fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was with the close friend of my mom's and it was like war broke out in my house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that began the programming, the belief unconscious subconscious programming that men always leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: because he like my dad was my hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I was going through, you know, I had my first marriage and it was actually a good marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: My husband and I remain friends after our divorce, but I started doing an energy modality called Lady Healing, which works with subconscious programming.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I realized was how much my subconscious beliefs that men will leave me?
[SPEAKER_01]: actually came into my world and it is what happened like men cheat on me it was just something that just I didn't even know consciously that it was that was the belief that I took from my parents to worse men cheat on you and men leave you and so so I have like
[SPEAKER_01]: this eight-step process that I went through pretty much to shift that and I shifted it through acceptance and gratitude and forgiveness and then this belief reprogramming and forgiveness to really shift the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I found was my divorce was all about my relationship with my dad.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was unhealed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was all the wounded parts and that was my inner work to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I went in, you know, to the super shadow sides of me,
[SPEAKER_01]: And really looked at that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was when that shift happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a darker period, but I had great people to guide me through and to support me through it, which was incredibly helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this modality is so powerful.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was three months and everything had shifted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, my relationship with my dad, totally shifted as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are close to this day.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is so incredible to have such a healing and meaningful journey.
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for sharing that part with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so much of what we learned is through what we learned through our family of origin and culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I would I often talk about is so as
[SPEAKER_02]: My audience now, and you probably guess from my accent, I'm Iranian-American.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in Iranian culture, the only type of non-monogamy that was known was polygamy, which was kind of coming from the place of
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of like this empowerment for women.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have no other way of saying it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like lived experience of generation and after generation, paired with religious kind of like beliefs that so, so many women felt trapped in these situations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that my great-grandmother told the story of her mother, to my grandmother.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like a bear with me that like her husband remarried and she died, like her mom died from sadness.
[SPEAKER_02]: because it was like that toxic and then I came here and now I know in new era through my education that non-monogamy can be very healthy and healing for people, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like one thing that it could be a possibility of coming from the place of this empowerment and kind of like rooted in people's generational pain, but it could be a source of liberation.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it could be a source that many people can discover.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I can do relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: This serves me better.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that you went through this journey of like you went to monogamous relationship and then did more understanding of yourself and then you were curious about the monogamous kind of dynamic with this person.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is fantastic and it seemed like they showed up that person showed up in an authentic way, because as we both know, sometimes when people go out of the relationship for them, it's more about secrecy.
[SPEAKER_02]: The secrecy piece is what turns them on, so which is interesting with this person, it seems like they were open when you made an invitation for kind of like having this honest communication.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely, definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think he was on a spiritual journey of coming to terms with what had happened during his over twenty year marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he felt good about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think he knew another way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think he wanted to make a men's through being honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I appreciate that that was my first experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think, you know, it is the harder choice to be honest with attractions and experiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: It definitely is like it's easier to just not say anything, but I really feel that their gifts are so much more and the opportunities are so much more vast when you enter in with consciousness into a non-monogamous structure.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I'm hearing from many people that I identify monogamous is that they go to sex parties and that's the kind of way they can explore with other people or they kind of go on these trips and it's like a once in a blue moon kind of dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you guys decide what does the issue part would look like?
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you guys talk about the boundary?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think we did it in a pretty clunky way to be honest, because that was so long ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we talked about, I knew, so he was kind of in the rock world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was exposed to a lot of women.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I kind of knew what the times that he was out, we did live together for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I knew where he was going to, where his attention would go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so I think it was more that we, I don't know that we pre-create spoke about any of it, which again is like I think a lot of back then you think in two thousand four there was just not a lot of education.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was not a lot of information about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have friends who've been nominogamous for twenty twenty five years and they talk about like in the beginning, we just didn't know now all these amazing resources where people can actually say, okay, what are the things that I need to talk about before we even go in that and pre-agrements and you know, more structure to it, that's all really great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at that point, we were kind of kind of tripping our way through it all and just figuring it out as we went along.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the honesty piece was just so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, because that relationship was not anything I think either of us thought was going to be a super long term relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was more leeway.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just got an out of long term relationships and we were just kind of in this place where we wanted to
[SPEAKER_01]: have fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: We never explored together.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was more like he went out with, you know, someone, I went out with someone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And interestingly enough, I started the relationship with my current husband from that relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: You really never know what's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we want to have all the security to go and stretch boundaries and like, you know, try new things.
[SPEAKER_01]: The truth is we don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can do our best to prepare as much as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I met this man who became my husband and we've been married for almost twenty years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and we started monogamous.
[SPEAKER_01]: We knew we were going to explore open, but we went right into monogamy and having kids and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we had a little bit, my current husband and I had a little bit more information to talk about what are the boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we want to explore?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is not okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we feel good about?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we not feel good about?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say the most important thing is to know that you can always come back and restructure.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can always like check in what revisions, what is working, what is not working, and that has always helped me.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I love about this story is that oftentimes we hear this through love, oh, maybe like half a amount of the time you've been in relationship, you have to wait until to find your person and here you were like in a monogamous relationship found your life partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the chapters, you know, I have this one podcast episode where I go through all the chapters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't personally identify as any structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just like, where am I at my life?
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I needing?
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I wanting?
[SPEAKER_01]: What will best serve that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, with your husband now, I would imagine you communicated that you're in a monogamous relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: How was that kind of encounter was?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like was the dating app?
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you communicate it with him then?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we met, we actually had known each other since the late nineties.
[SPEAKER_01]: We worked in the same company, but in different cities.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in two thousand five, we found ourselves in the same city.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just he had also be gone through divorce and I don't know he came into my office and I was like, wait a second, you were not like, I thought you were and he's like, you weren't like, I thought you were and we started having very long conversations about what we want in life and we knew
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that brought us really together is we knew in relationships we didn't want to do what culture said we should do or society said we should do we want to write our own script.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was that from the very beginning and in all aspects of our lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: We wanted to just pay our own path and that's what we've done.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is beautiful that like he was someone that did you and then you had this kind of rekindling while you were in this relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and after done like you've done all the beautiful work with kind of shifting your perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you weren't in the now which reflecting back on that relationship, what were some of the things that you think you learned about love and commitment there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that love doesn't have restrictions.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much programming about love and relationships, specifically leaning more towards monogamy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I love someone and I'm married to them, it is them and only them till death do as part.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just there's just so much programming.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I learned that I can care about and
[SPEAKER_01]: be with other people and still have great experiences with my partner and still be close with my partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard though, like at the honest, like I don't actually tell anyone they should do this unless they want to do their own in a work because it is really about continually, you know, coming back to self.
[SPEAKER_01]: Coming back to self, what is this triggering in me?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is this jealousy?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is underneath the jealousy?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, like, I learned to become intimate with jealousy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to say, like, what is underneath the jealousy?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is this really about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because jealousy, specifically in that monogamous relationship, was pretty strong for me because
[SPEAKER_01]: My partner at that time, he liked a certain kind of body type.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was not my body type at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I had to learn how to fall in love with my body.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, came at the very top of like, oh, he likes that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He likes like big boobs and like very shapely and I'm not that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it started with what is wrong with me?
[SPEAKER_01]: That was where the jealousy started.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I realized, no, what's underneath that is me falling in love with my body.
[SPEAKER_01]: Me falling in love with exactly how my body is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so again, going underneath the jealousy, that process was really powerful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I learned so much about what's really going on with me and not stopping at the jealousy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was something that I really learned.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just love that I can have an experience with someone else
[SPEAKER_01]: and talk to my partner about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it can be a conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's a turn on, but more times it was like more of a triggering thing that I wanted to work on.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have, I'm, I love working and going deep within self to heal.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was like my jam.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also hated it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was like really hard, but it was it led to good things.
[SPEAKER_02]: That it sounds like such an enriching experience on conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can imagine, hopefully it was healing for him to write because definitely people are hiding and they going out of the relationship, create this kind of shame inside, but being able to share about their experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can imagine that was also powerful for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you learn that this is the time to transition out of this relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because sometimes relationship ends because people go with someone else and that's a bridge egg, but it seems like in the monogamous relationship, that wasn't the case.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you tell us more about the ending?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, he, this man, had a daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were living in Las Vegas and he's from LA and the daughter was in LA and I looked at him and I said, I don't see this becoming a long-term relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: because it was at the time where I was in my mid-thirties and I was thinking, I think I do what I would like to explore being a mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was really new for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was mainly career oriented, but it was just kind of something that came up and I just didn't see it happening with this person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also because I had been in his daughter's shoes,
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was like quite a different perspective like oh now I'm kind of the other woman and now I'm seeing all the stuff I put my that woman which became my stepmother still my stepmother to this day like what I put her through and
[SPEAKER_01]: He was feeling like maybe I should be more present with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was wanting to encourage that because I wanted that from my father.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just kind of like this beautiful coming together of a lot of different aspects of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: What wasn't there, what I want, what he wanted with his daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just didn't see myself moving to LA.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't see myself in a long-term relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then things were starting to build with my current husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just kind of this whole, you know, all the pieces came together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just went to him and I said, I think it's time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we've, I think we've run the course with this relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really think you should go back to LA and be with your daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he agreed and it was actually beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we still text each other to this day, happy birthdays and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I've been pretty
[SPEAKER_01]: Less to have a great ending with all of my, you know, significant partners and we, you know, remain friends afterwards.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what a beautiful and meaningful story and how powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't know that your stepmother now is the same person that you're that married like your mom's friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have been in a relationship for over forty years.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, blink.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and also, I'll say that being in a merit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So viewing it from a twelve year old girl, you know, it was like, how could you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all your fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know,
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a lot of healing just by growing up and being in a marriage and understanding more of what being in a marriage is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, my dad was the bad guy, my mom was the good person, but growing and evolving and being in relationships made me think there's always two people in her relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, even if it's my dad that had an affair, it's my mom that that had her at her parts to play as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: No make wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And both my mom and my dad had incredible relationships afterwards.
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad is super happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: My mom, while she was alive, was with her husband of thirty, twenty-five years, thirty years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I just look at that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, it in a gave me an opportunity to grow and learn.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that was my evolution in this lifetime was to grow and learn about relationships in that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that, such a beautiful opportunity to reflect and with a beautiful story to hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I sometimes missed the kind of idea of how things were black and white when we were younger.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, no, this person is wrong or liking my own family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I grew up.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can see all sides of things, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not like people can take accountability for their part because that was my experience with my dad and my mom.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's interesting that you say, yes, accountability is important, but there's just like our relationship dynamics are just so complicated.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now that we have an option of maybe exploring non monogamy or monod different types of monogamy, it keeps people opportunities to do the relationship the way that's
[SPEAKER_02]: aligned with their personality, with their values, with integrity.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for our listeners, they're curious about monogymish.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you invite them to think about?
[SPEAKER_02]: How can they know if it's a right fit for them or not?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is such a great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say first, are you open to working on yourself?
[SPEAKER_01]: To think like are you willing open curious to question everything you think you know about relationships about monogamy about marriage because even like I'm in my second
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, round of this that I've been doing for six years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm still coming up with beliefs of like, wow, I had that belief about marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that true for me?
[SPEAKER_01]: So being able to question and and go inward to look at what your beliefs are and if you align with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So someone who is super curious to get to know themselves and do the work.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second part I would say that I think is very important is how stable is your relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is your current relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you are going to venture into opening it up, even just a little bit, things are going to come up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to want to feel stable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it doesn't have to be perfect because no relationship is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just be real about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But are you at a place where you can trust that you can have conversations
[SPEAKER_01]: with your partner, hard conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: And are you willing to bring in a therapist, a counselor, a coach, to help if you get stuck?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's helped me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You would also then come to the specifics.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what does what excites you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we don't want it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called consensual nominography for a reason because it is agreed upon with everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: No pushing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people say that you go the slowest, you know, you go the pace of the slowest person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're thinking you want to go ahead and get on dating apps right away, but your partner is not ready, then you want to listen and understand what's going on and have those conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: It takes longer in the beginning, but if you build that solid foundation, then you will be more successful.
[SPEAKER_01]: So once you have those conversations, you want to talk about like, what is it that excites you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it excite you to have an experience with another couple?
[SPEAKER_01]: Another person, would you prefer to go on your own date?
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you prefer for it to be sexual, non-sexual, online, offline?
[SPEAKER_01]: away from your town or in your town or with friends or with no one that you know and so you just like go and you can I'm sure find those checklists in a lot of places like what are all the things I should be thinking about as much preparation as possible and again patience and space for everyone to catch up because each person will probably go at a little bit of a different pace.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a great place to start.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for that invitation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Kay, I was thinking about when you were talking about, if you want to work on yourself and kind of have emotions come up, I feel that is the work of being in any relationship, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think when we are in monogamous relationship, because people have sometimes this kind of a rigid way of thinking, really, kind of immediately think, oh, it's our partners fault.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have, I'm jealous, my partners fault.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're watching porn.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like porn.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have porn addiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like all this label that we quickly put in and it just gets in the way of curiosity and understanding ourselves on what's happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: So regardless of if you are a monogamy or non-monogamy, emotion will come up, but I love that disinuitation of you getting really curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that you're kind of like
[SPEAKER_02]: having different options, like to talk about different options, it people, because maybe some people feel safer having sex with people they know, some people like strangers and all these boundaries and agreements that's important to discuss and being able to be flexible with yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you mentioned that back then it was monogamous and then it before was monogamy and now it's a different types of relationship and that's common for people to shift from dynamics to dynamic differences and so of life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I do tend to gravitate towards the term relationship diversity, because again, these terms, monogamy, monogamish, open relationships, polyamory, they have a lot of preconceived preconceptions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we can just say, okay, who am I and what do I want?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like let's just let all of the labels go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who am I and what do I want?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who is my partner?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do they want?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we want together?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then design it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you can maybe put a label on it to try and describe it to others.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that that's what labels are helpful for is to either describe it or to find community.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think labels are helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: But other than that, really, you know, what is it that you want?
[SPEAKER_01]: And and what is your partner want?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, carry I feel people would want to learn more about you, about your story, about all this wealth of knowledge that you have.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, if our listeners are curious about you, where can they find your contact and contact?
[SPEAKER_01]: And finally, at either carryjerislo.com or might be easier, relationship diversity, podcast.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: That'll take you to my podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always recommend for people to start with episode one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have over a hundred and twenty episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm currently on hiatus doing my own inner work because I never tell people the two things without me doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been a time of me needing to go inward to go to the next level and expansion in my relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have a hundred over a hundred and twenty episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So go to episode one and learn what my perspective of relationship diversity really means and how that could look in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do believe that by embracing these concepts of relationship diversity that we can really find what is most fulfilling for us as individuals.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the best way to listen, to get to know me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I share a lot about myself and my stories in almost every episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also interview really amazing people because I believe that it's a conversation and I don't have all the information.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love to bring on people who have more information.
[SPEAKER_01]: on certain relationship structures.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also have some real life people's experience about non-categorical relationships and how people are really doing it different because once you start to learn you're like, oh my god, anything is possible and it's really, really liberating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's the best way you can also sign up to get my relationship diversity.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a PDF that will help you to start to design what might work for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It teaches you about some of the different structures and what is really like to design a relationship as unique as you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the best way to get into it with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for sharing all of this resources with our listeners coming on this show and I hope we have the end future.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: As we wrap up today's episode, I want to leave you with a little truth that often goes unspoken.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people think they are in a monogamous relationship, but they might not be because the truth is, fidelity means different things to different people.
[SPEAKER_02]: For some,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about physical exclusivity.
[SPEAKER_02]: For others, it's about emotional intimacy, flirting, or even what counts as cheating online.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very few people are practicing traditional monogamy in the way it's historically defined.
[SPEAKER_02]: But most have never had a language, space, or support to define what monogamy actually means to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why it's so important to have conversations like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether you're exploring non-monogamy or committed to a monogamous relationship, having clarity, shared language and agreed upon boundaries can transform how you show up for yourself and your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: Intentional monogamy is just as valid and complex as any other relationship structure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when it's chosen, not assume it can be incredibly powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also want to give a big thank you to our sponsor, Wifey, for supporting these series.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wifey is offering a nuanced, sex positive and visually stunning perspective on the ethical non-monogamy lifestyle and doing it without sensationalism we often see in the media.
[SPEAKER_02]: Their content focused on real couples, real stories and the emotional update
[SPEAKER_02]: behind alternative relationship structures.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this kind of normalization helps pave the way for more honest, open, and fulfilling relationships for all of us.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're curious, make sure to check them out at WiFi.
[SPEAKER_02]: dot VMG dot studio or follow them on Instagram and Wi-Fi updates.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're enjoying these conversations, don't forget to follow, rate and subscribe to Sexology Podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have an exciting lineup of episodes coming your way sharing real stories and expert insights on all kinds of relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: You won't want to miss it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Dr. Nazmin Mowali and this is Sexology.
[SPEAKER_02]: See you next time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening to Sexology Podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: For more great content, visit www.sexologypodcast.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please be advised that information presented on this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health provider.