[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everybody, we are so glad that there was a positive response to CC and I having our little one-on-one duo conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: You never know when we're going to set out for a new venture with the podcast or spending some time working on something, whether it's going to work out, but we're just so glad you guys enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's been so much fun just to see people on social media being like, yes, more Carly, more CC and I'm like, if I want to hear more from us, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still in shock for this, even after all these years, I'm flattered and thankful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I think, you know, I mean not to speculate what other people are thinking about their pair of social relationships with us, but obviously they listen to us in a more technical way when we're on books with hooks, you know, or other interviews, obviously in a more like agent capacity, but they follow us on socials and they've been to our workshops, a lot of you guys have taken our courses at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: They know our deep dive, so you know what we're about, honestly, a more personal level.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we thought we'd bring a little bit more kind of flavor and intimacy to the conversation, talk a little bit about our thoughts behind the thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm excited for today's topic.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have tentatively called this episode, shooting the shit about editors, the quote unquote death of the novel, and authors with the quote, it factor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So lots of stuff to talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start off with, did we read the Blackbird in the butcher?
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of gossip about our gossip on dark romance.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I read, I don't know, maybe like, forty percent in the novel when I started this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I finished it last night and then I had to go and buy lights out because again, once you start going down these rabbit holes of these sub-trans and sub-genres, you kind of just got to get on the bandwagon and I really wanted to see the difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of what I did with Akatar and then fourth-way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I think I did fourth-way and then Akatar, but you know, once you're starting to go down these sub-trans, you got to think, okay, what's the difference?
[SPEAKER_01]: The subtle differences between these sub-trans and so that's kind of where I'm at.
[SPEAKER_01]: So CC, did you read?
[SPEAKER_01]: I put you in the blackboard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the second time currently that you refer to a black word in the butcher.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's because the black word is the woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think you're unconscious is being feministic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, I approve.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a portrait of the black word.
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I saying it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, so now you said it right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then before you said black word, but then also when we were chatting before we recorded use also said black word first.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, Oh, unconscious.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to say to Emily.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just looking at like our notes that I wrote in Google.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one time I say butcher and blackbird in the next time I say blackbird and butcher.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think everybody knows what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, people know people know and they're loving the feministic change edit I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I did haven't finished it yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a big believer in
[SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to books specifically books.
[SPEAKER_00]: I usually don't share when I don't love something in a public forum, just because you never know how it's going to come across.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are exceptions.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a very famous memoir that I once mentioned.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't like because the memoir's so big.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure the person doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will say this was not my taste.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was expecting everything that I get from a dark comedy plus romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't get that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the writing strong, there were lots of really smart storytelling beats that were followed, like tension, escalation, all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are things I'm really struggled with that I was expecting to struggle with, like suspension of disbelief.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, and it comes to like the stuff that I like about Dark, which is really like the complexity and the depth and the contradictions.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was too tame.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what I am saying is this,
[SPEAKER_00]: Story that has like accidental cannibalism is too tame.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is like it's all writing on the plot.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like first of all, she's a serial killer who haunts serial killers.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is too easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone wants serial killers to die.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody goes save the serial killers.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like it's not like dolphins.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, too easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Too easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want it more mess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the attraction between them like
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, just get together.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason why they shouldn't get together.
[SPEAKER_00]: She isn't a him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He isn't a her.
[SPEAKER_00]: They both want to be with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I were to give her edits, I think she should do what vampires of El Norte did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she should do what meet me at the lake did.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm only Henry did in, which is the one that's called Beach Lovers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beach, Beach, Beach, Beach, Beach, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: where the two people who meet and who have the will they or won't they know each other from before in the story set up they have they had something like some frictiony thing and that complicates the present because that I could get behind like they're both single to both hot they're both attractive they're both clearly into each other just get together people
[SPEAKER_00]: But then if there have been something in the past, that would have helped with the plausibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, I have issues because this book is doing so well.
[SPEAKER_00]: The author does not need my notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure a lot of you guys are listening and going, hey, I love the CC.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so happy for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved reading it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly recommended it because I love studying these new genres.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm definitely going to read lights out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was just too, like, too tame, too tame.
[SPEAKER_00]: I needed more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, so I also felt like there's just so much suspension of disbelief required that it takes a while to be like, okay, are we going all in on this world?
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things like I just want to speak to the larger trend for a second, like one of the things I think really is really interesting about this quote unquote trend is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the women taking the violence into their own hands in a way that is very like forward and they're just like they're just going forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't want to do too many spoilers obviously and these are two like number one New York Times best sellers.
[SPEAKER_01]: You say today best sellers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Half of the people listening are probably already read these.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't need to worry about spoiler alerts necessarily, but I I can totally appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also really think there's quite a blending between the lines of
[SPEAKER_01]: horror, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked with this obviously on our other episodes of our books with hooks, this like horror romance, horror romance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the difference between dark romance and horror romance number one?
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we need to go on a deep dive of horror romance, because of like the goryness and the grossness of Blackbird in the Butcher, and I'm not super far.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, actually, I'm pretty far into lights out actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not as gross as that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like gross in its own way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But not really the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that like shock factor is is really interesting to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm very interested in this theme of like women taking this situation into their own hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, not feeling like the victim, you know, rising to this like serial killer or like murderous level.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think all that as a trend is very interesting, especially when you counteract that with the tradwife movement, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what are these two things that are common now?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like tradwives, studying this like simplicity, quote unquote soft life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's like feminist rage, like murderous hero ends, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And heroes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this like duality between tradwives and again, these like serial killer murderous female characters is really interesting to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: All this to say I actually think you're gonna like light out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It reminds me a bit more of you and are you a you fan?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I thought you meant it reminded you of me as opposed to the title you and I was like, is it deeply disturbed like me?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think of you as the nurse character in light out, but yeah, no, like you care like happiness is you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do enjoy you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do like yourself like do like you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think you're going to like light out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So finish that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just trying to get to a book club.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think more than you're investing anticipated it to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But readlights out and then let's talk about that one because I'm really enjoying the and somebody actually put this in the comments for one of our reels about shooting the shit, which is yeah, there's there's this like contradiction in the hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is very layered and very interesting, which I think will see that seems way better.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like logical.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to like the psychological implications of why the hero is the way he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I look forward to your take-on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fun lights out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, so hard my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to read for work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Poor me.
[UNKNOWN]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Such a bummer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what else do I have my list of things to talk about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the email drama.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I talked last week about the email drama.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, as I said, I'm not naming nature.
[SPEAKER_00]: So can you like, can you catch us up on that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: What did you do?
[SPEAKER_00]: What ripple effects were set off?
[SPEAKER_00]: How did the plot escalate?
[SPEAKER_01]: As I said, I'm not naming any names here, so I'm going to be Vegas possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anybody that missed the first episode of shooting the shit, I explained that an editor accidentally sent me an email that was not for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a rejection for my client written to the intern in a teaching way that was accidentally sent to me instead of
[SPEAKER_01]: the intern.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I did was, and I think I kind of mentioned what I was thinking I was going to do, which is that I wanted to wait a couple of days, because I like to wait and see if it will make the, they realize their own mistake.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's kind of not like I gotcha moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, again, we all make mistakes, especially in email culture, which I totally understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is what I wrote back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote dear editors name.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think this version of this email was meant for me, but the rejection is noted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for reviewing, and that was my email.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually had an interesting conversation with my assistant about this, because she formerly worked as an editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've really always worked as an agent, and so I'm always, as you know, fifteen years of doing a job, like your brain has always been an agent mode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, my assistant ran.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, when you were an editor, like, how would you have handled this situation from your side and how would you have thought about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I also used it as a teaching moment with my own assistant.
[SPEAKER_01]: who was formerly an editor for us to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, what this editor is going to be worried about is you taking her off her sublist.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when we started into the dialogue about this, what did you think about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now this editor's like, oh, no, this agent's going to blacklist me, which is, again, what my assistant was talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the editor wrote back being like, obviously, deeply apologetic, like, sincere apologies.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can it make this up to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is again where I got into the teaching moment with my own assistant to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, back to the editor, I understand we all make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: My hope is that you also looked at this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because my worry is an agent was like, oh, maybe the editor didn't even look at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, my other intern looked at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said, my hope is that like you also looked at this, not only the intern, I'll certainly keep you on my sublist.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope we can connect on a project in the future.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so just keeping it like, mostly up the, again, we all make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she reassured me that she did read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't just the turn that read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so she said I was using this as a teaching moment, which we assumed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so we both said, we'll hope we'll connect on a project soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, no bad blood.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a very personal business, but that's what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: All I like how you handled that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's such an interesting insight from Raya.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that she shared that with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: It had not occurred to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I have been taught.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, you know, we do the job in our, like, I always say, you know, it's like, I've been trained as an agent for so long.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have this mentality.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important for us to think about, you know, other perspectives of the situation, which I thought I was pretty understanding of the situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's like, what would the editor be thinking in that moment was very different than what I was thinking in that moment?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, C.C.
[SPEAKER_01]: tell me about what you've been up to.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you do last name?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so last night, I went to a so-who house, okay, so context.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last week, I opened the so-who house app and I saw that Penguin Random House was starting a book mixer and I was like, wait, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to go to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for context for people who've never used the app, you have like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you are alerted that an event will open and then when the event opens it can sell out as quickly as like one second later or it can just take days and it just depends on the popularity of the event.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was all set to like RSVP and I even texted my friend Emma.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like the app maybe you want to go Emma's also a reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, yes, let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then on the day, I log in one minute after the event goes live, and of course it's sold out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then I was like, oh man, bummer, I'm not gonna get to go, but then Emma had RSVP with a guest because Emma was just thinking ahead.
[SPEAKER_00]: When she was like, maybe CC won't get a spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: She let me go with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yesterday I was there and it was essentially various people from the marketing and publicity team from Penguin Random House and different imprints.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were all like all talking, you know, to a group of us can be honest here there was like one guy, it was mostly women.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it needs to be delicious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how I'm wishing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and reading too, I guess, but you know, essentially they were like asking us questions about like what do you like to read?
[SPEAKER_00]: And for the first half, I was just in cognito, like just as a reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then when we took a break and we all grabbed our drinks and started mangling, I did out myself and I was like, hey, and I'm so glad I did because one of the people who was organizing knew who I was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, we follow each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, I'm a secret books to grammar too and I'm like only following each other because like her face isn't on her account and so yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the fun reminder of like
[SPEAKER_00]: why we all go into this business, at least most of us, I think, is because we love books, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes going back to basics and just having a moment of, I'm gonna sit in a room, fill with people who really enjoy books and we each read different genres and all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are people who love stuff that I don't love and I love stuff that other people don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just fun and it feels very meaningful and rewarding to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's also kind of cool to see publishers investing in different ways of reaching readers, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's just a great way.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've like, we have this target audience who people who love books.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that they're sold out so fast, like, to hopefully get that feedback back to them and think, like, we should do more events like this because clearly we have.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's already another one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for the next month.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: What else is new in your agent life?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, not too much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not too much in my agent life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking that maybe this would also be fun to share, but
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a client reach out.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's at the stage where she's filling up the author questionnaire.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, for all her listeners, essentially the author questionnaire is something that publishers ask authors to fill out pretty early on right after you, you know, you secure the book deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you essentially go through like everything you can bring to the table in terms of like connections.
[SPEAKER_00]: And truly, you are meant to really dig deep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything from like where you went to school, do you have like any alumni connections that could help?
[SPEAKER_00]: No thing is too small to mention, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you really have to really take the time to fill up that questionnaire.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my client was like, this seems like a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is this normal?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, it's her first book, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, this is totally normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was asked, like, how would you position your book?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are some questions that you would want me to ask you?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so we can have like the canned Q&A.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't just put the questions else.
[SPEAKER_00]: So put the answers.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's just like brilliant, brilliant woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like one of the smartest people that I've ever met.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet she was like paralyzed.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was like, I don't know what to write about my own book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I know I know my own book, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I feel like when authors are put on the spot like that after so many years of working in isolation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, as an interesting exercise, if anyone wants to try answering your own author questionnaire,
[SPEAKER_00]: Let us know if you would like us to share kind of like a fake sample author questionnaire, so you can know what typically goes into one of these.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll create our own obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: We won't take it from any publisher, but I think it's super fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's super fun to know like what happens later, like after the book deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have any of your clients ever been like, Carly, I don't know what to write?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more just really overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, oh, this is actually going to take a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it is a lot of kind of deep work and thinking about in the positioning of their own work, which
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't normally contextualize themselves like within that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a lot of things like you said that they know is coming, but not all that some of them will ask for multiple versions of a log line, which again, if you're a debut, you probably worked on your query and your agent worked to obviously work deeply on the pitch and you probably have some log lines.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're an option project, you maybe haven't thought as deeply about what your log lines are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe your agent didn't write like a super and depth like pitch letter proposal if it was an option project sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just how these things go so it is always super important for every single project not just like again like the first book at a multi book deal to think about like how this project and this situation and this moment and the zeitgeist how it's gonna hit
[SPEAKER_01]: So I totally agree with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a sexual kind of framing of your work within the context of everything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: In my authored publishing playbook, I have like, you know, these like brand sheets you can do and there's just so many different ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as you said to think about how you want to tackle it, but at any stage at every stage, everybody kind of needs to realize we're selling a product.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in this industry, we have to think about all those unique selling points.
[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, we're actually going to talk about this as our first link article today, which is everybody in the publishing industry is doing so many different jobs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if we can simplify streamline this other questionnaire, which will help marketing, which will help publicity, which will help sales, which will help rights, which will help editorial, like that you're just helping everybody do their job better and better for you because their job is to serve the projects, obviously, as well as the
[SPEAKER_01]: business.
[SPEAKER_01]: So super important to do as much as you possibly can because if you leave things blank, nobody's going to tap you on the shoulder and think like, oh, you need to fill this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll be like, oh, she doesn't have anything to write there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just, you're leaving opportunities on the table.
[SPEAKER_01]: So super important to write it very enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: That that last line really is the the big takeaway I think too often authors don't realize this they don't realize that like if they're not doing a good job and not really like rising to to you know and doing what they have to do I think unconsciously we assume like people are going to tell me if this isn't good and like they won't necessarily like it really is up to you to
[SPEAKER_00]: Really just put your best foot forward like there's no wrong way to fall out the offer questionnaire I mean I guess you can lying is wrong but other than something like that there's no wrong way right like be honest and share every information you have but like the quick way to do it which is the least time-consuming way
[SPEAKER_00]: might seem appealing to you because you might think, well, they'll fill in the rest.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they'll make up the dance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they absolutely will not.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is not their job, but love for that to be the world we live in.
[SPEAKER_00]: That sounds like an awesome world, but it's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: If anyone does live in that world, let me know where you live.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to check out the visa requirements and I will move it.
[SPEAKER_00]: In our world, we have to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like in terms of like authors doing it, agent supporting them, but that's just, yeah, that's just reality.
[SPEAKER_00]: In other publishing news, how was New York?
[SPEAKER_01]: How was your trip?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks for asking.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a completely like sold out event.
[SPEAKER_01]: It went so well.
[SPEAKER_01]: The conversation was so deep and interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved your outfit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just loved it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So cute.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same perfect for the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I loved it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had my pack my cowboy boots and obviously cowboy would take up a lot of room in the luggage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, should I wear my cowboy boots on the plane?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that like playing appropriate for me?
[SPEAKER_01]: I ended up packing them.
[SPEAKER_01]: more of them to the event and yeah, no it was it was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had my account my black cardway boots, my gone he shorts and then I think I just had like a white top on and but they also had like cowboy hats for everybody to wear and bandanas and it was like an incredibly branded event.
[SPEAKER_01]: So eight three one stories put it on in conjunction with McNally Cport location, which is gorgeous if you haven't been to the McNally
[SPEAKER_01]: Super location, it's super stunning.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I highly recommend everybody make a pilgrimage out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I was to celebrate my author Bailey Hannah with her well's ranch series.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had also turned out for the publisher that was there and it was um, it was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I also
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to hang out with my assistant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had lunch with an editor that I recently sold a book to, yeah, it was, it was a good working vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also, so I just got back from New York, and then I'm getting formal again, because I just found out my client, Jane Haley, who's been on our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jane Haley is getting a billboard in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her publisher has paid for a week, right at my presentation, a week, every twelve minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: her book is going to show up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So women of Arlington Hall will be on a billboard.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, do I need to turn around?
[SPEAKER_01]: Go back to New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, get a picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think enough people will send me pictures.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it'll be after this episode's airing after the billboard's already gone out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can't have you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I normally would ask you guys to send me pictures, but I think they will already have happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, if you see me posted that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's probably like a huge author dream for her too, because it's not normal, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Most authors don't get to shoot me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put it in the conference room.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not normal, okay, please don't go to agents and go, hey, how come I didn't get this?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like that's not normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: We hope it happens to everyone, because of course you're going to hope for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know if it feels like even though it's not common in terms of reality, it is a common dream, like kind of like near times.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's also a common dream.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, having your book made into a movie, that's also a common dream.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's awesome, like good for you, good for you, good for your client.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very, it's very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any other words describe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's another fun age and anything that happened to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's get to some articles we've been talking about in sharing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So CC, do you want to introduce the first article that we were going to chat about today?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first article is, I mean, I thought it was so interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all about how editors these days have three jobs, but then plot twist.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's from the sub-stack, dear head of mine, read jobs of the modern editor.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Me and Carly, you pulled this quote and I think it's a such a good quote.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you hear authors and literary agents, gripe that editors don't edit anymore, it's because it's becoming more and more common.
[SPEAKER_00]: But essentially, you know, it talks about how editors are a project manager, which is just, you know, project managing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds boring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably is, it's just dealing with a lot of people following up with a lot of people, holding people accountable, making sure that things stay in schedule.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's tiring and exhausting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they also have their job of actual editing and so many of them do it on weekends.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I hear from so many editors, during the week it's too noisy, too busy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to edit on weekends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they're also investors.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this, for all of our like diehard fans, I, on our very first episode of Books with Hilux, or maybe it was like the one of the first few episodes I don't remember now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I mentioned how, you know, crying and I had both fallen over the query, so we would be like the agent shark tank.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like the actual shark tank though, like not the cute little shark tank that I'm mentioning.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is when the role of investors essentially when an editor has to decide what to spend the money they have on.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they have a budget.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a certain number of projects they have to buy for the future books that are going to come out two years from now and they have to decide what to invest in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine being an editor and
[SPEAKER_00]: Unlike the Shark Tank, it's not people walking in and talking to you, but it's like getting all these emails from agents.
[SPEAKER_00]: They get hundreds, if thousands of emails from agents a year, and they have to choose, let's just say, twelve books to buy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a really big decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, one of the reasons why it's so exhausting, and we don't talk about it enough, is because you have to taste something before you know whether you want to, you know, continue tasting it and potentially investing in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But tasting a book, I'm using ear quotes here, it requires so much brain power.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, reading is something that requires sustained periods of lengthy introspection.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I'm tasting a cookie to decide if I want to invest in a cookie that takes me what, I don't know, ten seconds, like with my palette, especially my palette is great for cookies.
[SPEAKER_00]: But even things like, do I like a TV show?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how much brain power am I actually investing in the first two minutes to see if that show grabbed me?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's much more passive.
[SPEAKER_00]: But reading, you just really need to focus your attention span.
[SPEAKER_00]: So these editors are essentially doing all these jobs, so project manager, editor, and then investor.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then plot twists, they also have to deal with everything that happens with the books in their backlist.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, plus stuff like their colleagues leaving and them inheriting titles.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, to me that article did a really good job of explaining why it's overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you feel that way too?
[SPEAKER_00]: Currently, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I just really appreciated Sean's honesty in this article.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought Sean Delone was the editor who wrote this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, for an editor to write, if you hear how there's some literature, it's great that editors don't edit anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because of becoming more and more common.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of editors that push back against that sentiment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, we still edit your books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you guys edit the books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say, it was that we work intimately with editors.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to be talking about that, relaxing, like, have a cocktail at lunch.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're working with such a select number of authors per year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, you get to kind of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: language in that, in a romantic relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what he's getting at.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I totally felt that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the ways to kind of heal this part of the industry and again, he talks about capitalism in the article, which is very realistic about the corporate nature of publishing and how this all works.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think
[SPEAKER_01]: What of the ways to kind of solve this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is an anti-capitalist idea, but we separate what these different jobs of the editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, at some publishing house, especially in non-fiction, this also happens in the UK, with commissioning editors, is there is an acquisition's editor?
[SPEAKER_01]: There are only jobs as soon network with agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the titles, like, do the auctions, all of that sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: They probably help with the sales conference and everything like that when it comes time to pitch the books they bought.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's their job.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're the acquisition editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it goes to like the editing editor, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the developmental editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it goes to copy editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think separating the job of the acquisition slash commissioning editor from developmental editor is so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I work with two different publishers that do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I always appreciate it because it's so much more streamlined about whatever these job is in house.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there is a bit of a mentality for the author who feels like, oh, the person that would me on the call isn't the person that carries through this project with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: because it is a very much like a quarterback kind of mentality where the editor is the person who's like everybody goes to for everything all the time because they always have the answers because they're one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you lose a bit of that like quarterback energy a little bit, but I think it's worth the health of the project.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's worth the health of the health of the editors, the literal health of the editors.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am huge proponent of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But another interesting quote from Sean's article was
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, now this is a joke, but remembering our axiom, the more culturally desirable and interesting a job is, the more work it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: You really have to love the work and find energy in it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, because you guys listening to this or part of these guys doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really, it's just like, it's a passionate, it's a calling, like, I'm doing my job as a calling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, like, point blank, just because of the level of risk and attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: commitment and what my skills and talents are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I feel like this is a calling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of editors feel that it's a calling as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you agree?
[SPEAKER_00]: See, a hundred percent.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the only way to do this job.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't make sense otherwise.
[SPEAKER_00]: And essentially being an author too, I've heard from enough authors that I do this not because it makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do this not because it is the path that that is most comfortable or most predictable or
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, easiest to to figure out my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really just because it's a calling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we're all doing this because it's a calling, honestly, and that means a lot that also makes it hard to because I love your idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love your idea of separating that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that hiring, you know, having making sure that editors have really good support staff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell like there's a difference when it comes to like the editors I work with with my clients.
[SPEAKER_00]: They want to have really good assistants who are like always on top of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even in terms of like sometimes I need stuff from them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I won't even like email the editor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just directly email their assistant because I know it's fine to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like to ask for files and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it just helps so much with the project management part.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, pay people well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's obviously really important publishing is a lucrative business.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly loves to say it and she's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it is a multi-million dollar in this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we can afford to pay people and unfortunately not everyone is super well-paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: publishing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's definitely important too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I so appreciate Sean's honesty as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that I did a really good job of explaining it in a way that someone who's not in the industry understands.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, when I'm talking to my non-publishing friends from now on, I will forward this article.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be like, hey, just read this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Read this so you can understand the people I deal with.
[SPEAKER_00]: People I have to sell to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now a word from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the next protocol I wanted to talk about was from this sub stack, I think the sub stack is called instead of doom scrolling and the articles called where to find media to consume instead of doom scrolling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I came out on July, thirteenth and so I got me thinking about
[SPEAKER_01]: how I consume content, how I find new content to consume.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so much, I mean, we've been referencing a bunch of sub-stacks, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, there's just so much to follow all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: CC and I have different brains and they work in different ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also interested in how CC thinks about doomsgrowing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you a doomsgrowing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to ask the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you doomsgrowing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, I mean, we can like loosely define, I guess we doomsgrowing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, I think doomsgrowing is
[SPEAKER_01]: When you don't have quote unquote anything else to do, where you just have that moment where you like plunk down, sit down or lay down, you're like on your phone and you're just like going through TikTok going through reals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're just looking for something on your phone, but like you can't think about what the thing is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I'm trying to question because I really only quote unquote doom scroll if we want to call it that kind of before bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because like obviously I'm busy working mom, like in my kids, I have one kid that's like a night owl.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't go to bed until pretty late.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't have a lot of quote unquote me time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my doom scrolling is kind of like when I pick up my phone before bed and I always think lately I'm trying to be better about this if like what am I looking for?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's one thing just to be like someone Instagram following whoever I follow scrolling through my scrolls, but I'm really trying to question what is it that I'm looking for?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can scroll for ten minutes, you can scroll for thirty minutes, you can scroll for like two hours obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, are we looking for the dopamine hit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we looking for a solution to a problem?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we looking for a feeling?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we looking for companionship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we looking?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm trying to be better but questioning that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's my feeling.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like so mindful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, to me, doomsurring is exactly that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like when you pick up your phone and you scroll and it's mindless and you don't even realize the time that goes into it or what you're even doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's not mindful.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's unintentional.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I say I don't doam scroll, I don't doam scroll in the way that people use the word doam scroll.
[SPEAKER_00]: So by this definition, I do not.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I do is I CC doam scroll.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a very vivid imagination and a really, really fantastic memory, episodic memory.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I by myself, I don't need a phone guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it's like CC three point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like I am way beyond phones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just
[SPEAKER_00]: catastrophize in my mind, I doomsday in my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think of every scenario that can go wrong in my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, I bet, okay, so I, I'm like a big believer in therapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, something my therapist always tells me is, okay, you're really good at being vivid and specific and detailed about the worst case scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now can we talk about what it's going to look like if it's the best case scenario?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do sometimes manage to catch myself and I go, okay, now let's think of the best case scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I do like the positive version of Doom's scrolling, like happy scrolling or, you know, eat whatever that word should be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Positive mindset.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but that only works if I do it out loud because if I do it only in my mind, my mind starts creating plot twists.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then something's going to go wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my mind just very creative guys let me tell you.
[SPEAKER_00]: very creative.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I talk to myself, like I will frequently talk to myself, if there were ever like a hidden camera in my house, they would have so much fun with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be so entertaining.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm creating these scenarios, like with a lot of specificity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I imagine like what people are wearing, what they're saying, what's happening, all these amazing things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if anyone also self-dune scrolls, I find that it really helps to do this positive shift.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't recommend starting the positive scenario that you're predicting with something about yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just something about the self that makes us pessimists too prone to going back to the doomsday.
[SPEAKER_00]: I recommend choosing someone you adore, it can be your pet, it can be your sister, it can be anyone in your life that you love so much, someone that you consider a vulnerable, someone you want to protect.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I recommend imagining a fantastic thing happening to them with great detail and great specificity, something in the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that really helps my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go, that's my antithesis to doom scrolling.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like CC's mental health.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tip of the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tip of the week.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's try and qualify to give anyone mental health tips.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although I struggle with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I am qualified.
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen, we have a podcast there for we are allowed to say whatever we want in is the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the next one I sent you, which is like such an interesting with like cultural conversation and you guys have been speaking of doom scrolling speaking of spending time in the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I get the New York Times papers on day subscription.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't always read it on Sundays because life, but I had picked up the article, which you guys probably, again, those of you who are super online, maybe read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Online has had a print, but David Brooks had a opinion columnist from the New York Times wrote this opinion piece titled, When novels mattered, and then goes on this long diet drive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you want to click the listen to the article button, it's like a ten minute long opinion piece about the death of the novel, essentially, being like, and he doesn't mean, he doesn't mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: All novels, he means literary novels, he means serious novels.
[SPEAKER_01]: He talks about like the best novels of nineteen sixty two, JD Sallinger, duh, duh, duh, duh.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, it's kind of like, like, is he just like trolling for hate each?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, properly, like he thought this was a great article to put out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the line that really got to me, because again, like novels and compasses, so many different genres and categories, like what a blanket statement to just say, like, we're only gonna talk about literary fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so he's talking about things that are on the bestseller list and then in the next paragraph he goes, today it's largely calling Hoover and fantasy novels and genre fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to scream because I'm like, this is your own, I didn't try not to swear, but you know we swear in this podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is your goddamn newspaper, the New York Times, who prints the bestseller list.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can literally pick up your own freaking paper and look, and right now, there are so many other novels that are on the list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, just this like calling, are you picking up a paper from like three years ago?
[SPEAKER_01]: No shade to calling Hoover.
[SPEAKER_01]: She still sells lots of copies, but there are other authors, genre authors, as well as fantasy novels and genre fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, they're just also so white.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what if it's genre on the best seller list?
[SPEAKER_00]: So what if it's no longer literary fiction as it once was like, like, why does this bother you so much, sir?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think that you need to examine this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you need to examine why this bother you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whenever you look at the world, you're like, oh, change.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Try to examine why.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he goes into a super long diet tribe, a bit like the decline of literary fiction, a story about social pressure and conformity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I was just like, rolling my eyes through the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I obviously read the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, maybe somewhere in here, he's making a point that's like legitimate in the year, twenty, twenty, five.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was hard to find one, couldn't really find one, but I did read the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the other thing I had sent CC in response to this was,
[SPEAKER_01]: I came across and patch it's response to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and patch it is a novelist and a bookstore owner, pronounced as books in Nashville.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great, obviously super talented author.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great business woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: She actually really great on social media because a lot of people don't think of authors of her caliber being on social media lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's great on social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, she does this super long Instagram reel posted on threads.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it's on TikTok as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on threads, Susan, PRBO said, one of the greatest literary fuck-use ever from a lady who looks so sweet and unassuming.
[SPEAKER_01]: and patch it takes David Brooks to school and takes his lunch money too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do you want to summarize?
[SPEAKER_00]: Go and patch it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just loved it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was the best thing ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we please give her a crown, a subter, just make her, make her queen of the responses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, she just goes through all these books.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, well, you think literary fiction's dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she like literally picks up one book after another.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then at the end, she's like, these people you're saying were more interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, you know, literary novelists are no longer interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them murdered his wife, the other one, you know, like had all these problematic things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, it's just, it's so silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's such a silly article.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what, if you were to examine it without the judgment, like why literary fiction no longer holds such a large percentage of the pie, that could actually really be an interesting thing to dissect, but without the
[SPEAKER_00]: The literary snobbery, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's just silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the idea that literature is only literary fiction.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if their layers are literature, romance is literature, it's all literature.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if this is how you feel, it's just so silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so silly, please eat a cookie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, number of things I wanted to comment there, but it also, again, opinion pieces are meant to create some discussion, some fodder.
[SPEAKER_01]: More opinion pieces will be in response to the opinion piece we're spending time on our podcast, you know, dedicating time to talking about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just really silly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to check it out, obviously, as we said in New York Times, if you can see books when novels matter, but go watch and patch its response with summarizes everything that we want to say, everything I think go on people have to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, Carly, let me ask you, why do you think literary fiction holds a smaller piece of the pie?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in the article he says, you might think it's the internet, but it happened before the internet became big.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, I checked out when it happened, like the eighties, nineties, but actually nineties more than nineties.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's because digital cable became so prominent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm old enough to remember like I was a kid when cartoon network became a thing and all of a sudden they had cartoons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like cartoons the whole day not just you know when hour a day or whenever it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that because of cable, our brains started getting more used to like genre storytelling, like typical storytelling beats, you know, and we just, that's our taste change depending on what culture feeds us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think as way more to do with that, then with like the internet or any type of political thing that's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't, again, don't think it's a bad thing at all, but more importantly, I think it has to do with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have theories?
[SPEAKER_01]: My theory is, and this is obviously untested and unresearched, but I think I have to do with the brandification of authors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Literary fiction authors are often a bit harder to put in a box other than this is a literary fiction author who is very serious and we're supposed to take them seriously in very, you know, this, that and the other, which again, sometimes we're going to get different things from that author, but some authors actually write a bunch of literary novels about different things that speak to some of the larger trends of what they're doing, but that's harder to package a neat and tidy way as opposed to
[SPEAKER_01]: Janet Ivanovich is, you know, forty book series where she's publishing a book a year and two.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's like how we are able to kind of summarize and brand things and market things in the era of the internet, competing with other things, see how our brains, like to package things and put them in little tight meat boxes, we're able to kind of wrap our heads around the marketing campaigns and the brandification of authors as consumable products.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be my take.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And does that also coincide with the timing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like does the timing add up for that theory?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean potentially I'm not an advertising and marketing, you know, expert of the series.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, talking to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're an expert at all things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're too nice to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was one other thing I sent you that I thought was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: From a, you know, I think we can't go through an episode of this show without talking about AI in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I follow an influencer, her name's Britt Moran, and she posted her stories a book and a lot of times influencers will get bookmarketing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll get book boxes.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're gonna open them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always curious about obviously like how they post them and how they talk about them and because obviously some influencers can move a lot of units.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what she posted
[SPEAKER_01]: was a copy of a book called Super Agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was published by authors equity, which is a newer publisher.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can kind of look up all of them because they have an interesting history backstory and kind of marketing campaign behind the newer business model.
[SPEAKER_01]: But basically, they are using AI to make each addition individual to that person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, for it's free copy had
[SPEAKER_01]: her on the jacket had an introduction with her in the book and was using AI to talk, you know, with the book is about AI.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was using in the marketing campaign AI to individually put together the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for any like CC getting a copy of the book and having like CCs picture in the back and like a forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: So skin when authors note from CC and so they're making these for all of these influencers.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I have a lot of questions about like
[SPEAKER_01]: consumption and production and obviously there's a high cost individually produced items.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why it sounds cool at the same time, but at the same time it's cool and scary and I have so many questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I love that you share that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it was in her stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's probably disappeared obviously, but she might post about it in her grid, but it's Britmore and M-O-R-I-N.
[SPEAKER_01]: The book Super Agency by Reed Hoffman in Greg Bito called Super Agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: What could possibly go right with our AI future?
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, as we said, it's on trend for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It stopped me and my tracks in terms of marketing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, whoa.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought maybe it's kind of excessive, as I said,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it costs wise to produce these.
[SPEAKER_01]: But bookboxes actually cost a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know a lot of authors have it on their wish list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they would love a bookbox to go with the marketing really expensive to like get on this product individualize each of these the labor the cost of the items the shipping actually is usually the most costly thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, it made me add the book to my TBR.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so I think it did the job, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's the job.
[SPEAKER_00]: The job is to make me curious about the book, especially because like what could go right in the subtitle and agency in the title.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just thinking it's going to help with my positive thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, positive thinking that us agents, I know that that's not what it's about, but us agents are going to have a good time with the AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think again, we're just creating a little book club here, but if you read it off and superport back and let us know if it lives up to the marketing because I thought that was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I was going to make a real about, and then I thought, I'll just talk with CC about this on the show, was I was kind of noodling and thinking about this concept of, like, how do you know whether an author has, like, the it factor?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is an it factor?
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be like an author you've worked with, or somebody followed, like, from their nascent stages of, like, their platform, and then, like, that person has the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because as agents, that's part of our job is to kind of curate this and think about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, what does it feel like to you or look like to you?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know, there's a really great line I love that says sales is transfer of energy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what a sale is at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the it factor is really when we recognize that someone is sellable, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, this is the best way possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you have that energy, when you have that genus Iqwa, like it really is special and
[SPEAKER_00]: unpin downable in a way, but at the same time, very clearly recognizable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I know when someone has the it factor, and I know other people know it too, because it's always like a beauty contest for people like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, like if you had to point to it, like it's so hard, like it's energy, it's something about the person's presence, charisma's definitely a part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so cool when you meet someone who has that sort of thing, who has like star power, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what does it feel like for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's an interesting question because I think also it's lately changes over time because the areas of marketing, again, like using social media for example, was like we were in a very like clean curated era of marketability.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there were author books like influencer books where it's like, oh, they were selling this like super curated version of lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they were selling like a equally curated version of life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like for example, like Lauren Conrad, early millennials, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd never really ever let anybody in super personally after being on TV, but would still was able to kind of sell and market something.
[SPEAKER_01]: like a lifestyle without letting people in and I think her brand star powers faded over time because she never was able to let people in because now it's all about like the storytelling and the authenticity and because with so much being able to be created by AI kind of coming back to AI right now and this is a trend we talked about on the shooting the shit episode last time which is so important for us to just
[SPEAKER_01]: like be authentic, show them behind the scenes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, so kind of, I think right now, that's what charm and charisma is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Charming charisma is the authenticity is the behind the scenes, because not only do you have to show them behind the scenes, you also have to be kind of charming and charismatic while you're doing the behind the scenes and the authenticity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously talent, I think goes without saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of super successful people that maybe are the most talented people in the room, which some people get upset about, they're like, well, they're not the best writer, but they're getting these multi-million dollar deals.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well,
[SPEAKER_01]: They're doing something that you're not doing, you know, and it's not there's no wrong with what you're doing, but what they're doing is something that is not uniform, but it's packageable and understandable, like within the genre and the category and the context.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not uniform is something special and something unique, but it's kind of comprehensible and understanding.
[SPEAKER_01]: understandable to what we're looking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think there's there's a lot of different things when I think about the instructor and sometimes it's just solely revealed over time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't also think it's like an instant thing all the time, but it's a lot of drive.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of talent.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of charm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I always say, if you give up, you're not going to make it to that point, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because of the people that like persevere through all these ups and downs that are able to say, like, hey, I've had this charm all along.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been this talent at all along.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to kind of lean and ride the waves with this, like, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's like the charm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that idea, but it changes, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The definition changes with the culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's so true.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can bring that back to our conversation about literary fiction earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we want people who are vulnerable, but still aspirational.
[SPEAKER_00]: It used to be that to be aspirational, you had to be perfect, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But now it's like no, no, no, like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: fake.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't believe that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want that vulnerability, but we still want to feel that aspirational quality in a more updated way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That seems like something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like even thinking about Sarah Jamas, it's been a while since she put out a book and everybody's banging down her door about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She posts in her stories that she finished a draft and everybody's like, oh my god, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this little insight into her life and her psyche and the process.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we want.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want her to just be like, anything's perfect and it's so easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's working really hard on this draft to make sure that all the fans are really going to love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people are going to be so excited when it comes because they know the like care and attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so her Instagram stories, her storytelling through social media, that she's able to kind of convey that to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I'm still kind of thinking about that topic and the idea, the instructor and all of that, but I was curious about your take.
[SPEAKER_01]: The last question I wanted to throw out to you before we let everybody go, and I let you go is, so we're not planning on doing a huge call-in Q&A kind of section with this shooting the ship, but one question somebody posted, Anna Harber M. Author, which I thought was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, I have question for shooting the ship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do agents have reading slumps?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing that happens?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it like the agent version of writer's block?
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I said, I'm not planning on taking a lot of questions, but that was a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, see, see, what do you do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, so is a reading slump when you can't get into reading?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that how you see it?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I see a reading slump as your picking books up.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not really grabbing your attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you put them down.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like getting out of the slump is like reading awesome book where you're like, wow, that blew my mind open again.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I've never had that in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what a reading slump is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please, please never come to me the gods of the slump.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that sounds terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have reading hangovers where I finish a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I finished the compound recently and I it's so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I read it in one sitting like it's so addictive, so amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I finished reading it, what a reading hangover for me is when you're like,
[SPEAKER_00]: But the book is done, there's no more book, like surely there are more pages that are hidden and I can't see them, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you kind of really want it to be true, but you know it's not true and that gives you a hangover.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I found it the best way to cure reading hangover is to pick up another great book into the reading it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still kind of missed the world of the compound.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted more that was such a great book, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have slumps.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have slumps?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's also a difference between like a work slump like I'm going through the slash pile.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really saying anything that's jumping out of me and like a personal slump.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rarely do those two things ever happen at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not, you know, I'm not like in it forever slump or anything like that or everything kind of not work.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I was talking about personal slump like reading published books.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That happens to you where you like can't find one that you love.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should call me when that happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes what I'll do is I'll just switch because I read a lot of fiction and nonfiction like I'll just which between what I'm reading.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I get an affection slump, then I will just read a ton of nonfiction and slow meaning like
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, just again, I'm really grabbing me immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or what I do often is I use a Kindle scribe, which I love my Kindle scribe.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just download the samples to a bunch of stuff where I'm like, I'm just going to see what grabs me and then when it goes, I'll go buy it and go off and run with it, but I'll just download a ton of samples on my Kindle.
[SPEAKER_01]: That helps with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how I normally read.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I read most of my E-reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I always try samples.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it grabs me, I buy it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If not, stop reading it, and it's like a
[SPEAKER_00]: Not even DNF, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if all you write is the sample, I don't even consider that DNF.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there you have it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some agents have slumps, some don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think most of us do in some capacity.
[SPEAKER_01]: As you see, like usual is a bit of it at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to call me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone is allowed to call me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will get you out of that slump.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will make it my mission.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll make it my mission to be like, you have to be this amazing book.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can love it so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's another episode of shooting the ship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remind her that this is an unscripted program in our conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author.
[SPEAKER_01]: As always, refer back to our written notes for the full-sum picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly Waters in CC Lera are agents at PS Literary Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and CC on this podcast are solely that of them as podcasts go host and do not necessarily reflect the views of opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: A reminder, but all the ways that you can support us as a show, rate us five stars on Apple podcasts, tell your writing friends about us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd love to help as many writers as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And follow us on our Substack newsletter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis bonus videos, articles, essays, advice, and more.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find it at the shit about writing.substack.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the shit about writing.substack.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's it for today's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, keep at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, it just takes one yes.