WEBVTT 00:17.725 --> 00:27.709 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Imaginal Inspiration's podcast with me, David Lorimer, where I talk to my guests about experiences, people and books that have shaped their lives and work. 00:29.090 --> 00:36.833 [SPEAKER_01]: The Imaginal cells play a key role in the metamorphosis of the caterpillar into a butterfly, which is also the Greek symbol for the soul. 00:38.074 --> 00:46.958 [SPEAKER_01]: These cells are dormant in the caterpillar, but at a critical point of development, they help create the new form structure that becomes the butterfly. 00:53.531 --> 01:03.554 [SPEAKER_01]: So my guest today is my friend Peter Mary, who writes that he's passionate about helping humanity evolve at this time of profound global change. 01:03.594 --> 01:04.535 [SPEAKER_01]: You can say that again. 01:05.375 --> 01:14.938 [SPEAKER_01]: His work bridges emerging consciousness and practical innovation, combining wisdom, systems thinking, an entrepreneurial action to create real world impact. 01:16.058 --> 01:20.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Through weird technologies, and that's spelled WYRD, and we'll talk about that. 01:21.740 --> 01:32.823 [SPEAKER_01]: He's pioneering consciousness interactive technologies that enable us to remember our interconnectedness and engage with intelligence beyond the individual mind to address pressing challenges. 01:33.923 --> 01:46.387 [SPEAKER_01]: He draws on decades of experience in societal transformation, integral frameworks and spiral dynamics, to help organisations and governments navigate complexity and unlock evolutionary potential. 01:47.790 --> 01:57.236 [SPEAKER_01]: Alongside his entrepreneurial work, he's offered four books, evolutionary leadership, wide work, leading from the field and evolution. 01:58.096 --> 02:04.440 [SPEAKER_01]: Offering clarity in practical pathways for leaders and change makers who want to navigate this era with deeper awareness. 02:06.060 --> 02:14.184 [SPEAKER_01]: Peter also designs transformative educational experiences, such as the programmes offer through a Biccati University that he co-founded. 02:15.164 --> 02:21.407 [SPEAKER_01]: His personal expertise is in supporting leaders, seeking deeper personal development and systemic impact. 02:22.247 --> 02:32.252 [SPEAKER_01]: His passion is to act as a bridge between mainstream structures and frontier consciousness, translating pioneering ideas into grounded actionable life-enhancing solutions. 02:33.195 --> 02:48.641 [SPEAKER_01]: He does what he can to walk the talk, purpose-driven, co-creative, ecologically engaged, committed to the never-ending personal development journey, and to inspire others to do the same, and we'll put his websites up in the show notes. 02:49.321 --> 02:53.643 [SPEAKER_01]: So Peter, welcome to Imaginal Inspirations. 02:54.624 --> 02:58.105 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you David, thanks for the invite, and we'll plunge straight in 02:58.811 --> 03:01.633 [SPEAKER_01]: to a shaping moment involving a choice of work. 03:01.653 --> 03:08.879 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know whether you have a number of shaping moments and you may have gone through various career changes where there were different shaping moments. 03:09.559 --> 03:12.201 [SPEAKER_01]: At any rate, tell us about a shaping moment. 03:12.982 --> 03:27.733 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, probably the foundational one was I was studying French and German at Exeter University in his time in my final year and it got a little into the absurdists and was generally questioning the nature of reality 03:28.480 --> 03:32.061 [SPEAKER_02]: when my mother gave me a copy of Fritz Schumacher's book, Small Disbeautiful. 03:32.181 --> 03:34.481 [SPEAKER_02]: So my mother's a Quaker. 03:34.922 --> 03:36.022 [SPEAKER_02]: It was beautifully timed. 03:36.862 --> 03:45.384 [SPEAKER_02]: And kind of got me realizing that, wow, you mean this whole economic and social system we have around us might not actually be the best way to do things. 03:46.184 --> 03:49.265 [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, you know, might be a lot that we want to change about it. 03:49.545 --> 03:55.607 [SPEAKER_02]: So actually that kind of radicalize me and tip me into joining Greenpeace and friends of the earth and all of that. 03:55.667 --> 03:56.827 [SPEAKER_02]: And they got very much into 03:57.488 --> 04:13.383 [SPEAKER_02]: environmental sustainability and all of that for a number of years, which I guess really started my pathway on this quest to work out how do we make the biggest positive impact with the least effort, not through laziness, but through inefficiency. 04:14.124 --> 04:17.667 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of being, I guess, a guiding question throughout my life and work. 04:18.835 --> 04:22.080 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so interestingly, well, I read languages as well. 04:22.100 --> 04:33.557 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know you were French and German background, and also Fritz Schumacher wasn't early network member, and I do also remember the time when I read as small as beautiful. 04:34.198 --> 04:38.240 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it had a shaping impact on me as well. 04:38.260 --> 04:41.002 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's now just fairly recent. 04:41.042 --> 04:42.643 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like he's seventy-three, wasn't it? 04:42.743 --> 04:46.245 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's over fifty years ago. 04:46.265 --> 04:51.508 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he was the man who said that we're now too clever to survive without wisdom. 04:51.528 --> 04:56.911 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's open quote there because I think it's such a good ballmode. 04:57.772 --> 05:02.694 [SPEAKER_01]: And then did you have influential mentors at this early stage of your development? 05:04.040 --> 05:21.815 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess after I'd been in the green movement for a few years, I came across Ken Wilbur's work and that really fundamentally shifted my perspective and I jumped into all of the spiral dynamics trainings with Don Beck. 05:22.455 --> 05:24.557 [SPEAKER_02]: So Don Beck was pretty influential. 05:24.597 --> 05:27.239 [SPEAKER_02]: We worked quite a lot together during those years. 05:27.940 --> 05:31.983 [SPEAKER_02]: Also around that time, Margaret Wheatley was somebody else I spent quite a lot of time with. 05:32.811 --> 05:53.025 [SPEAKER_01]: as we were trying to apply you know a lot of these approaches to organizational and societal well tell us a bit more about your interaction with them and what kind of advice they they gave you if any because these are both key people on they in the field I guess with Dom back it was always the 05:53.986 --> 06:12.833 [SPEAKER_02]: The vision he had for the large scale impact, so he was always looking at the benefit, you know, further for the world as a whole, and asking the kind of questions at the macro level that help us to understand the underlying patterns between what's going on around what's going on. 06:13.413 --> 06:20.296 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that maybe particularly resonates with me as it's in my DNA a bit, as my grandfather worked at Bletchley Park. 06:20.336 --> 06:23.377 [SPEAKER_02]: He ran one of the huts during the Second World War kind of 06:24.301 --> 06:30.082 [SPEAKER_02]: cracking the codes of the of the German messaging was actually Donny pointed that out to me. 06:30.122 --> 06:38.664 [SPEAKER_02]: He said, oh, you know, you're a co-breaker because like, you know, like you're a grandfather because it's part of the dynamics is all about understanding underlying codes and patterns and things. 06:39.324 --> 06:51.047 [SPEAKER_02]: So with with Donny, it was particularly when we were working together on things in the Netherlands around dealing with the fundamentalism questions, you know, so the Netherlands had a very advanced kind of postmodern 06:51.620 --> 07:00.943 [SPEAKER_02]: way of king of things, where they're very much relativizing everything and in an attempt to include it all in a kind of compassionate embrace, really. 07:00.963 --> 07:06.225 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm read in the Netherlands as people probably know being a very tolerant society of all sorts of things. 07:07.205 --> 07:13.687 [SPEAKER_02]: But when you get intolerance showing up, then they get stuck in the question, well, should we tolerate intolerance? 07:14.817 --> 07:16.497 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is a key one, isn't it? 07:16.517 --> 07:19.918 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a Voltaire said you should. 07:19.938 --> 07:28.141 [SPEAKER_01]: I really thought the yes, that you should have, that's one of the signs of an open society, so you tolerate the intolerable, but you argue against it. 07:29.061 --> 07:29.281 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 07:29.621 --> 07:31.081 [SPEAKER_01]: And then what about Meg Weekly? 07:31.121 --> 07:33.362 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you have some personal interactions with her as well? 07:33.992 --> 07:34.312 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 07:34.412 --> 07:52.427 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, just on that last point, you know, that's what we were doing is bringing in an understanding of development to the Dutch society where you realise that, you know, there are people who hold an ethnocentric perspective on the world and they will do all they can to fight against the world's centric perspective if it doesn't honour their own ethnocentric perspective. 07:53.108 --> 07:59.113 [SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, there is good reason, therefore, to set boundaries on that perspective so that it doesn't 07:59.706 --> 08:05.248 [SPEAKER_02]: damage the system as a whole while honoring the perspective and making sure people can express it in a healthy way. 08:06.088 --> 08:15.491 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we still struggle with that around the world in terms of how we draw boundaries around systems that could be very destructive to the world as a whole. 08:15.571 --> 08:25.615 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a tough conversation with people who are more in a post-modern perspective and find it hard to see that level of differentiation. 08:26.200 --> 08:28.622 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's a key one for humanity still at this time. 08:29.402 --> 08:37.629 [SPEAKER_02]: And with Meg, it was, of course, a lot was about understanding things from a systemic perspective, leadership in the new science. 08:37.649 --> 08:39.690 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I read that book when it came out. 08:39.790 --> 08:40.851 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not amazing. 08:41.091 --> 08:45.534 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think one of the most powerful experiences with her was where she had us sit in a circle. 08:46.680 --> 08:53.662 [SPEAKER_02]: And we went around the circle and she said, I want you to start a sentence with living without hope means. 08:55.702 --> 09:00.423 [SPEAKER_02]: And we went around and first of all, it was, you know, people were quite, it was quite a negative response. 09:00.463 --> 09:01.343 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, living without me. 09:01.843 --> 09:08.825 [SPEAKER_02]: But then as we dropped into it, it actually became an extremely liberating response where we realized that 09:09.465 --> 09:35.995 [SPEAKER_02]: hope is still involves attachment to something in the future and that takes you out of the present and letting go of hope but dropping into trust puts you in a very nice that's a really interesting insight because I think this I think this when I wrote this environmental book myself on the future of food and in the environment 09:37.236 --> 09:39.579 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm reading a lot of environmental books. 09:39.679 --> 09:46.568 [SPEAKER_01]: I found there was always a hopeful final chapter, but I also found that the hope was always conditional. 09:47.088 --> 09:51.874 [SPEAKER_01]: Now there was if you do this, then there's still hope, but if you don't do it, there isn't any hope. 09:53.536 --> 10:05.204 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also an orientation, I think, and I think from the point of existential point of view, it's somebody called an orientation of the spirit. 10:05.224 --> 10:12.990 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was Harval actually who said that, because I reviewed a book called The Spirit of Hope quite recently, but that's an arresting incident. 10:13.070 --> 10:13.631 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 10:15.452 --> 10:18.334 [SPEAKER_01]: And Meg is very large on community. 10:19.435 --> 10:20.336 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, as you know. 10:21.316 --> 10:30.341 [SPEAKER_02]: And understanding how systems change, you know, so this, you have these three levels where you have a kind of network which is where people are just connected to each other. 10:30.361 --> 10:50.392 [SPEAKER_02]: That evolves into a community of practice where people bring in their insights from their practice and share those with each other and there's an exchange of learning but then go back to doing your own thing to that the third level that she called a system of influence, where actually the collective then acts together 10:51.200 --> 11:07.843 [SPEAKER_02]: impact and she described that as like a maturity levels of a collective and I found that very very useful as well and how you put in place the conditions for a collective to move from just being a network into the community of practice, into actually acting together. 11:08.408 --> 11:09.788 [SPEAKER_02]: to make a big impact. 11:10.649 --> 11:14.210 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, well, that's a kind of perennial insight, isn't it? 11:14.230 --> 11:16.290 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it applies at any place in time. 11:16.330 --> 11:17.331 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very useful. 11:17.871 --> 11:26.713 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go on to books that have shaped your life and thinking, and I imagine Ken Wilbur comes up there, and of course, Don Beck and Meg Wheatley. 11:28.534 --> 11:30.634 [SPEAKER_01]: What books would you like to focus on here? 11:31.955 --> 11:35.516 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, certainly, I mean, Andy, as we said at the beginning, the small is beautiful. 11:37.768 --> 11:42.910 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the one that really, you know, the first book a Ken Wilbur side read was a theory of everything. 11:44.250 --> 11:53.373 [SPEAKER_02]: And that really kind of helped me make sense of things as I'd been in the green movement for a while and was just feeling some kind of dissonance with it. 11:53.973 --> 12:00.355 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't quite sure what it was and then when I read, you know, the spiral dynamics model really embedded within theory of everything. 12:01.035 --> 12:04.396 [SPEAKER_02]: That helped everything fall into place and then Ken's 12:04.880 --> 12:20.123 [SPEAKER_02]: for quadrants, you know, where he integrates, the interior, the exterior, and the individual, and the collectors, like the axes, because I'd been more on the activist world, and I'd been in the green movement, I'd been exposed to people who were doing their personal development and meditating in all of this. 12:20.183 --> 12:26.484 [SPEAKER_02]: But I couldn't find a good, I felt to me like it was a bit of a waste of time, you know, we need to do that. 12:26.945 --> 12:33.886 [SPEAKER_02]: And then when I read a theory of everything and saw Ken's quadrant, so I realized, oh, wow, so you know, if we don't do the upper left inner 12:34.299 --> 12:41.625 [SPEAKER_02]: Quadrant ourselves, then we just ended up projecting all of our inner mess into everything we try to do in the world around us. 12:42.365 --> 12:57.056 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was that point that I realized that if I was going to make a positive effect in the world, impact in the world, I needed to do my inner work because the quality of my inner state was going to affect the quality of the impact that I had. 12:57.657 --> 12:59.258 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was really a very key. 12:59.278 --> 13:02.901 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's when I got very disciplined about meditation and spiritual practice. 13:03.661 --> 13:05.622 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a theory of everything. 13:06.002 --> 13:06.702 [SPEAKER_02]: But he worked. 13:07.042 --> 13:09.663 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think Lin MacTag gets booked the field. 13:10.123 --> 13:14.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I was in Barcelona with Lin very recently. 13:14.944 --> 13:18.105 [SPEAKER_02]: Lin yeah, she came up to one of our early science and consciousness events. 13:18.345 --> 13:25.787 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was that book that made me understand this whole consciousness piece. 13:26.787 --> 13:28.589 [SPEAKER_02]: and it was written in a very accessible way. 13:29.049 --> 13:37.035 [SPEAKER_02]: But it also had embedded within it the story of the Princeton work, the Princeton Engineering and all these recent course which you've taken up yourself. 13:37.656 --> 13:45.182 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, which we've kind of we've come the new home for the equipment, you know, international consciousness research labs and Jeff Dunn. 13:46.023 --> 13:53.569 [SPEAKER_02]: They still look there, they kind of hold the legacy of the pair lab where we do now host that equipment. 13:54.182 --> 13:57.263 [SPEAKER_02]: that they had there at weird experience in Yorkshire. 13:57.643 --> 14:10.988 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was it was interesting that kind of started through Lynn's book and yeah that was very key because it helped me understand that dimension of reality in a grounded way and she linked in the science and everything because I was 14:11.527 --> 14:16.111 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, my mother's a Quaker and a Children's Nurse and my father's a mechanical engineer and a Roy. 14:16.512 --> 14:16.872 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 14:17.933 --> 14:23.799 [SPEAKER_02]: I need, you know, I can't get too much woo-woo without needing to ground it somehow and think about, okay, what do we do with this? 14:23.839 --> 14:24.960 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, why is this relevant? 14:25.080 --> 14:26.862 [SPEAKER_02]: How do you, how do you make it useful? 14:27.923 --> 14:33.268 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, tell us more about the technology aspect because you've been developing that very strongly, haven't you? 14:33.977 --> 14:44.540 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, what they discovered at the twenty eight years of work at Princeton was really that our inner states affect what should be purely random processes in the world around us. 14:45.320 --> 14:55.983 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was because they'd found that the actually one of the aircraft companies had come to them and said, look, the fighter pilots when they get stressed seem to be influencing the dashboard on the fighter aircraft. 14:56.683 --> 14:58.124 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, can you find out what's going on? 14:58.624 --> 15:02.605 [SPEAKER_02]: And so they actually funded the first period of research at the Princeton Lab. 15:03.244 --> 15:09.146 [SPEAKER_02]: and they used first mechanical devices and then digital technology around a event generator. 15:09.166 --> 15:17.649 [SPEAKER_02]: So they built these random event generators and we have them all at weird experience and big stack of them from these big huge boxes down to now what's in the USB stick. 15:17.669 --> 15:26.992 [SPEAKER_02]: You can see the evolution of the technology but what it does is it generates streams of ones and zeros using a quantum tunneling process. 15:27.492 --> 15:31.693 [SPEAKER_02]: So you get fifty percent ones and zeros if they're not being affected by anything. 15:32.330 --> 15:54.617 [SPEAKER_02]: and they use that to create interfaces for example on computer screens where people would try to generate more ones and zeros just with their intention like move a line up or down a screen where it should just be running along the middle if it was random and found that people were able to do that you know normal people not people claiming psychic skills or anything and in the end by the end of the twenty eight years of 15:55.230 --> 15:56.431 [SPEAKER_02]: research and publishing. 15:56.451 --> 15:58.471 [SPEAKER_02]: This was just cool of engineering at Princeton. 15:58.632 --> 16:01.413 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I wasn't even a school of wood or something. 16:01.713 --> 16:05.434 [SPEAKER_01]: So they had some other professors were less keen about it, like for example. 16:05.535 --> 16:06.015 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 16:06.035 --> 16:07.355 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 16:07.755 --> 16:09.656 [SPEAKER_02]: So they had to publish it and peer review journals. 16:10.437 --> 16:19.140 [SPEAKER_02]: And by the end of the twenty-eight years, if you looked, it did a review of all of the work they done, the probability of what they found being chance was nearly one in a billion. 16:19.861 --> 16:24.783 [SPEAKER_02]: So essentially, they proven beyond the statistical doubt that are in a state affects the world around us. 16:26.462 --> 16:28.584 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you ask, well, why doesn't everybody know about this? 16:28.604 --> 16:30.305 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, why isn't everyone talking about it? 16:30.465 --> 16:39.132 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was Professor Robert John, who was the dean of the school at that time, said, tell the story of a scientist. 16:39.192 --> 16:45.938 [SPEAKER_02]: He's saying, inverted common scientist who came up to him and said, Professor John, even if what you're saying is true, I wouldn't believe it. 16:47.499 --> 16:48.480 [SPEAKER_01]: There are a few of those. 16:49.140 --> 16:50.301 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that's the issue. 16:50.321 --> 16:51.382 [SPEAKER_02]: The issue isn't. 16:51.842 --> 16:52.703 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the proof there. 16:53.123 --> 16:53.724 [SPEAKER_02]: The issue is 16:54.444 --> 16:58.827 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, do you have a mindset that's able to actually accept the possibility of this being true? 16:59.627 --> 17:05.891 [SPEAKER_02]: So any of we ended up, I got to know Brenda Dunn who was the psychologist at the lab about six years ago. 17:05.952 --> 17:10.214 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, we were on a call and she said that we've got all this stuff in storage here. 17:10.795 --> 17:11.755 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you do anything with it? 17:12.896 --> 17:14.917 [SPEAKER_02]: What are those kind of magical moments? 17:14.957 --> 17:15.358 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 17:16.538 --> 17:22.002 [SPEAKER_02]: I'd met Roger Tempest and his partner, Paris, who run a owner of three thousand acre of state in Yorkshire. 17:22.696 --> 17:26.618 [SPEAKER_02]: and they're like being in the family for a thousand years and they're thirty-second generation. 17:27.198 --> 17:39.664 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just got this vision of creating a space there with all the technology where people could come in, general public could come in and experience themselves influencing this technology just with their kind of hearts and minds. 17:41.305 --> 17:42.646 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what we did. 17:43.306 --> 17:47.488 [SPEAKER_02]: We shipped the whole Princeton Lab across the Atlantic and established weird experience with a Y. 17:48.413 --> 17:53.436 [SPEAKER_02]: that being the original Anglo-Saxon Viking term for the interconnected web that generates all life. 17:54.417 --> 17:58.940 [SPEAKER_02]: And that became there was the source of the German word actually Verden, which means yes. 17:59.520 --> 17:59.880 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 18:00.521 --> 18:07.185 [SPEAKER_02]: Literally the word that describes how things spin out of the subtle into the manifest world. 18:07.705 --> 18:14.950 [SPEAKER_02]: So we decided we needed to reclaim that term and call it weird experience and they'd exist now so you can go up there and 18:15.720 --> 18:18.422 [SPEAKER_02]: experience yourself, influencing this technology. 18:18.842 --> 18:24.426 [SPEAKER_02]: From the mission of reminding people of the nature of their interconnectedness, that's really why we're doing it. 18:25.747 --> 18:44.059 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we further develop the technology and you know, with some more modern software and using two RNGs and now have a device called the weirdest scope, that contract the field of consciousness during an event can provide life feedback or record it and then you can see how the field was responding 18:44.759 --> 18:46.399 [SPEAKER_02]: at certain moments during your event. 18:47.540 --> 18:51.581 [SPEAKER_02]: And a light that glows as the field becomes more coherent. 18:52.041 --> 18:54.182 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's how I was going to ask you to talk about that. 18:54.582 --> 18:58.983 [SPEAKER_01]: The different colors represent different phases of coherence, that right? 19:00.103 --> 19:08.005 [SPEAKER_02]: Not well, no, the main, the kind of the brightness represents the amount of coherence in the field, so the amount of structure in the random data. 19:08.725 --> 19:11.226 [SPEAKER_02]: The colors are linked to certain data structures. 19:11.866 --> 19:14.267 [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes the two data streams stick together, 19:14.797 --> 19:16.318 [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes they mirror each other. 19:16.698 --> 19:18.820 [SPEAKER_02]: So there are various kinds of correlations. 19:18.860 --> 19:21.322 [SPEAKER_02]: So they actually have no universal meaning. 19:21.902 --> 19:26.006 [SPEAKER_02]: But people discover meaning in them, in their own contexts. 19:26.646 --> 19:31.710 [SPEAKER_02]: So for example, we have a family who would say, yeah, when we have our cozy family time, it always goes purple. 19:32.491 --> 19:40.397 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, people who were like, you know, I was on a call with Philip Cargom who I'm sure you'll know in two hundred and six years. 19:40.917 --> 19:43.479 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the two hundred and fifty druids on the Zoom call 19:44.219 --> 19:46.900 [SPEAKER_02]: And when we were talking, it was just flickering back and forth. 19:46.940 --> 19:51.283 [SPEAKER_02]: And then when he did his ritual, it brought everybody into the shared space. 19:52.023 --> 20:00.167 [SPEAKER_02]: It locked into green and just stayed there for the whole forty-five minutes until he dissolved the space, ended the ritual as it were. 20:00.767 --> 20:03.188 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it went back to kind of flickering between colours. 20:03.929 --> 20:12.653 [SPEAKER_02]: So what was relevant there was the stability of the light, reflecting the stability of the field that he'd created during that time. 20:13.164 --> 20:27.448 [SPEAKER_02]: So really, you know, the reason we create those is so people can have them in their homes, we can have them in meeting spaces, in yoga studios, and people can see how what they're doing, reflected is reflected in the field of consciousness. 20:28.528 --> 20:32.530 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll tell you what, have these sort of presidential offices as well. 20:32.550 --> 20:32.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:33.510 --> 20:36.691 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if they paid attention to them, it would certainly be useful. 20:36.711 --> 20:36.951 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 20:37.891 --> 20:40.592 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's got a lot of coherence in many of those places. 20:41.482 --> 20:51.087 [SPEAKER_01]: And let's move on, Peter, is there any key moment of insight in your work in relation to the nature of consciousness that you'd like to highlight at this point? 20:51.887 --> 20:56.809 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, when I was doing my PhD, that resulted in evolution theory. 20:57.810 --> 21:08.535 [SPEAKER_02]: It was the insight that, you know, things that, part of my impulse behind it was a feeling that things were less linear than the developmental models like spiral dynamics to describe. 21:09.515 --> 21:10.836 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was that there is 21:11.515 --> 21:33.215 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the past and the future are connected, correlated, and it was this realization that if you're wanting to take a step into the future, I can open your consciousness to an ex-stage or an ex-level, then you're going to have to heal or integrate something from the past that is holding the energy you need to be able to take that next step. 21:33.595 --> 21:36.558 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether that is from this lifetime or another lifetime, 21:37.208 --> 21:38.229 [SPEAKER_02]: and it doesn't really matter. 21:38.849 --> 21:43.713 [SPEAKER_02]: But the fact, the idea that, you know, it's like the brighter the light, the clearer the shadow. 21:44.894 --> 21:48.857 [SPEAKER_02]: When you bring in more consciousness and more light, you see more of the shadow. 21:49.457 --> 21:50.938 [SPEAKER_02]: And you got to integrate that. 21:51.239 --> 21:58.304 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, sometimes compare it to the tree, wanting to extend its branches higher. 21:58.985 --> 22:04.129 [SPEAKER_02]: But if it's going to do that, it needs to send its roots deeper, or else it's going to fall over. 22:05.269 --> 22:14.454 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the development isn't like a linear evolutionary process where you just, you know, go out towards as it were and expand more and more. 22:15.074 --> 22:20.917 [SPEAKER_02]: You've actually got to have that involutionary deeper, um, imminent process as well. 22:21.757 --> 22:34.123 [SPEAKER_02]: In parallel that, um, that would then, you know, shed light on something that's been separated out as it were split off in the past that needs reintegration to make you more whole. 22:34.816 --> 22:38.199 [SPEAKER_02]: so that you have the energy to take the next step, which is how I got to evolution. 22:38.219 --> 22:41.622 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was just sitting there one day going evolution in evolution. 22:41.962 --> 22:43.564 [SPEAKER_02]: There's too many here. 22:43.964 --> 22:45.245 [SPEAKER_02]: And really, there's too many here. 22:45.785 --> 22:47.947 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're too linear in their one process. 22:48.548 --> 22:49.869 [SPEAKER_02]: So what are they having common? 22:49.969 --> 22:51.971 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like you say, it was right in front of my nose. 22:52.391 --> 22:53.492 [SPEAKER_02]: Take off the end and the air. 22:53.972 --> 22:55.013 [SPEAKER_02]: And you just get evolution. 22:56.535 --> 22:57.816 [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't know what it meant at the time. 22:57.856 --> 22:59.277 [SPEAKER_02]: So I looked it up and it means spin. 23:00.692 --> 23:12.023 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's what everything does, what Taurus is the toroidial process, cells, the planet, the galaxy, and finally enough I found out later David that weird with a white also means spin. 23:12.043 --> 23:14.005 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's interesting. 23:14.025 --> 23:20.371 [SPEAKER_01]: When it reminds me of the, there's another remark of, yeah, Schumacher when he says sometimes people call me a crank. 23:21.752 --> 23:24.455 [SPEAKER_01]: But a crank is useful and it performs revolutions. 23:26.506 --> 23:26.987 [SPEAKER_01]: That's lovely. 23:27.067 --> 23:28.449 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was very good. 23:28.469 --> 23:40.646 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about the founding of a big property university and a little bit about that work because you do work with conscious studies and all sorts of different disciplines in a big property. 23:41.422 --> 23:44.445 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, so I was looking for a PhD. 23:44.465 --> 23:48.929 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a place to do a PhD actually on this stuff. 23:51.871 --> 23:56.515 [SPEAKER_02]: And I discovered I knew Jim Garrison and I discovered Wisdom University and he said, well, come and do it here. 23:57.256 --> 23:57.976 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I did. 23:58.377 --> 24:05.943 [SPEAKER_02]: And during that process, actually during the nine months I was doing an energetic balancing process on Wisdom University. 24:06.544 --> 24:08.906 [SPEAKER_02]: It evolved into ubiquity university. 24:09.790 --> 24:16.695 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was around the time that the MOOCs and all the online learning was happening in the eleven, eleven, twelve. 24:17.376 --> 24:33.548 [SPEAKER_02]: And we got a sense of the possibility that we could take the model that we developed at Wisdom University, which was an integration of the intellectual with the experiential and with the artistic to take that more globally by bringing it online. 24:34.547 --> 24:51.666 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was when we established and I kind of got interested and stuck my nose into it as a student and ended up being part of the founding team for ubiquity where we were really looking at what's the kind of higher education that's really needed for the world today. 24:52.487 --> 24:56.970 [SPEAKER_02]: and not what as the accreditors say or what are the existing institutions say. 24:57.430 --> 24:59.171 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, what are employers saying? 24:59.391 --> 25:00.732 [SPEAKER_02]: What are students saying? 25:01.232 --> 25:12.678 [SPEAKER_02]: And they were all saying, you know, with the level of complexity we've got, the business schools aren't providing the qualities needed in people to be able to navigate that complexity and speed of change effectively enough. 25:13.258 --> 25:16.240 [SPEAKER_02]: And they were pointing to what we now call the twenty first century skills. 25:16.320 --> 25:19.762 [SPEAKER_02]: So, creativity, collaboration, communication, 25:20.435 --> 25:23.037 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, all of which required the development of the interior. 25:25.198 --> 25:31.802 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we embedded into an integral approach as the kind of core DNA can well go became the inaugural chance of it. 25:32.703 --> 25:37.046 [SPEAKER_02]: And we developed programs that attempt to integrate the interior and exterior. 25:37.926 --> 25:47.673 [SPEAKER_02]: And from the SDGs that emerged as sustainability staff and the personal development, and then more recently have really focused more on the, on the inner work. 25:48.372 --> 25:56.977 [SPEAKER_02]: in the realization that, you know, it really is the quality, interior quality of the individual that will affect the kind of impact they make in the world. 25:57.257 --> 26:00.760 [SPEAKER_01]: And the being, yeah, being informing the doing. 26:01.400 --> 26:02.541 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah, exactly. 26:02.601 --> 26:07.303 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, how does your understanding of consciousness influence the way you live your life? 26:07.364 --> 26:13.027 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it does and you've said quite a bit about that already, like getting into meditation practice and so on? 26:14.528 --> 26:15.749 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it's, um, 26:17.279 --> 26:29.085 [SPEAKER_02]: The practice, as I see, is actually very much reflected in the way the weird light responds if you're interacting with it, which is, if you try to make it change color, it doesn't work. 26:30.425 --> 26:32.886 [SPEAKER_02]: The three issues with that sentence, one is try. 26:34.427 --> 26:41.230 [SPEAKER_02]: The second is, you know, make and the third is it, because within that is a causal linear paradigm. 26:41.831 --> 26:44.312 [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, there's a separation between I and the it. 26:45.190 --> 26:46.011 [SPEAKER_02]: So that doesn't work. 26:46.051 --> 26:49.874 [SPEAKER_02]: If you see it as an hit, you have to entangle yourself with it. 26:50.614 --> 26:53.637 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you kind of become an ironed foul in a way. 26:54.077 --> 26:55.698 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a second person relationship. 26:56.519 --> 27:06.167 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the approach has to be one of curiosity and exploration and lack of attachment to any kind of outcome. 27:07.348 --> 27:10.010 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, then the light starts to dance with you. 27:10.712 --> 27:15.736 [SPEAKER_02]: Now that is for me also the way that consciousness works. 27:15.756 --> 27:25.503 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to be living your life in a flow, in a co-creative flow, with consciousness, then it's about that same quality of presence. 27:26.177 --> 27:49.895 [SPEAKER_02]: where you are being curious that you're not attached to something the other side of the actions that you're creating are feeling what the need is for the next natural step and you take that step and that's all you do and then you sense again and you're in the whole time you're curious about what's going to happen and what the outcome might be without a preconceived notion 27:50.995 --> 27:52.456 [SPEAKER_02]: that you get attached to. 27:53.037 --> 27:57.599 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a living life in that kind of combination. 27:57.720 --> 28:03.263 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess it's presence and the more present we become, the more connected we become to the field. 28:03.883 --> 28:09.207 [SPEAKER_02]: And then when we're present in that way, we become sensitive to the evolutionary impulse. 28:09.387 --> 28:13.410 [SPEAKER_02]: One could say of the impulse of spirit or whatever that moves us. 28:14.070 --> 28:18.113 [SPEAKER_02]: And then in that space, these just becomes a world of synchronicity. 28:18.193 --> 28:20.254 [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't have to think up 28:21.013 --> 28:49.922 [SPEAKER_02]: how everything is going to work or how we're going to achieve the intention that we have because we know so very little about all of reality when we drop into that space and there's that clear intention like that will as it were but how that manifests is up to life so we then become present and we pay attention to how life starts to bring things to us 28:51.174 --> 28:53.856 [SPEAKER_02]: around that intention that we've uploaded. 28:54.416 --> 28:57.818 [SPEAKER_02]: I would say that's what it's taught me about the best way to live. 28:58.258 --> 29:01.340 [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't claim that I'm a hundred percent of my time. 29:01.580 --> 29:03.181 [SPEAKER_01]: No, none of us know what it is. 29:03.701 --> 29:09.425 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's not as you said, it's not just living or life, but life living you. 29:09.445 --> 29:09.505 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 29:10.946 --> 29:14.908 [SPEAKER_01]: And serve as a kind of reciprocity and flow and being less beautiful. 29:14.968 --> 29:18.350 [SPEAKER_01]: And do you have a proverb you live by or a favorite quote? 29:19.084 --> 29:33.654 [SPEAKER_02]: that you'd like to share with a dog is actually one that makes shared with me that she used to have on a signature in her email that she assigned to her to a nun somewhere and I can't remember the nun's name but it was it's proceed until apprehended. 29:33.674 --> 29:35.276 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it. 29:37.457 --> 29:48.265 [SPEAKER_02]: You know you never know until you act you don't know whether it's gonna work or not and for all the possible beliefs you might 29:48.655 --> 29:51.357 [SPEAKER_02]: come up within your mind about why it's not possible. 29:51.377 --> 30:01.423 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, as long as you just proceed until you actually can't proceed anymore, you'll find that, you know, the universe starts to organize itself around you. 30:01.463 --> 30:07.667 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a bit like that girl to what's assigned to girl to anyway, that boldness has courage and, you know, that one. 30:07.928 --> 30:08.648 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do. 30:08.668 --> 30:09.569 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do. 30:09.629 --> 30:12.130 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm taking initiative, acting towards. 30:13.071 --> 30:14.152 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I love that one. 30:14.232 --> 30:15.853 [SPEAKER_01]: Proceed until apprehended. 30:15.873 --> 30:17.494 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always like a police 30:18.567 --> 30:20.007 [SPEAKER_01]: injunction, but it doesn't. 30:21.188 --> 30:27.149 [SPEAKER_01]: And then finally, Peter, is there any advice you'd give to your younger self from your current vantage point? 30:27.589 --> 30:31.270 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's, you know, that path has got me where I am now and I'm very happy with it. 30:32.490 --> 30:34.430 [SPEAKER_02]: So, obviously, you can't kind of change that. 30:34.890 --> 30:42.692 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I would say, you know, you remove the more trust you can have, the less stress you generate. 30:43.532 --> 30:47.433 [SPEAKER_02]: So, trusting the path, trusting that you are in the right place, 30:48.129 --> 31:00.059 [SPEAKER_02]: At the right time, even though you can't tell what's going to happen next, trust that you will reveal itself to you, and it'll be the right next thing. 31:00.739 --> 31:07.905 [SPEAKER_02]: And then just stay in touch with that intuition or that heartfelt sense of what is the right next step. 31:09.627 --> 31:11.448 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it'll reveal itself. 31:12.089 --> 31:13.230 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it just flows. 31:13.250 --> 31:15.131 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to worry about. 31:17.653 --> 31:35.736 [SPEAKER_02]: what's going to happen next or how am I going to know you know where my next income is going to come from you know we've always in any business I've run and small business and myself it's always just been trusting that will always have enough even if we don't know where that comes from and that has touched wood you know 31:36.497 --> 31:38.198 [SPEAKER_02]: Always been the case, not until now. 31:38.518 --> 31:39.439 [SPEAKER_02]: There's always been enough. 31:40.239 --> 31:42.721 [SPEAKER_02]: And even when we haven't known where it's going to come from. 31:43.841 --> 31:48.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Peter, I think that's really excellent advice to all our listeners, including myself. 31:49.345 --> 31:52.506 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for joining me on Immanuel inspirations. 31:52.526 --> 31:54.047 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're welcome. 31:54.167 --> 31:55.248 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks David for the question.