[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me let me kick us off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just hear you know what the last couple we've been talking about baptism in the spirit and it's one of those things that I have not given any thought to in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have never I honestly didn't really
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard the phrase, but I have never once been in the conversation of what it is or when it is or how it is or any of those things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But spiritual gifts on the other hand, which is what we're looking to talk about or start kind of getting into this week, is something that not only have I heard a lot about, or fair share about, but I've also been very much interested in, as I think a lot of people are, and you know, it's one of those things that's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get to far ahead of ourselves, but it's one of those things promised in the life of all believers that you're gifted with at least one, if not a number of spiritual gifts, if I'm understanding it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a part of, I feel like most everybody's spiritual walk where they're very intrigued and understanding what there is and how they can use it and what that means and what that looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I have a number of questions and we could just kind of, you know, I'll let you do you and I'll, I've, you know, I'm not short on inquiries about the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you could just start by maybe giving us like just a general overview of just what is a spiritual gift, what are the spiritual gifts?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, part of it is, you know, it's like we segment these things, you know, to look at each aspect of them, you know, whether it's, you know, baptism, end dwelling, right, and then
[SPEAKER_00]: spiritual gifts it's like they all they're all interrelated all begin at the moment of salvation right I mean at the moment of salvation you're immersed in the spirit you're then brought into union with other believers there is that underlining a biting life that's in each one of us that one is that's in each one of us at the same time you know we're permanently in dwelt by the spirit
[SPEAKER_00]: and then he then leads and guides in our life, but at that same moment also, at the moment of salvation, we're given spiritual gift or gifts, right, in order to build up the body of Christ into edify the body of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that there's probably, if I would say, like, upfront, what are some things that everyone should know about spiritual gifts?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say that first off, that a spiritual gift
[SPEAKER_00]: in regards to an individual is God's enabling that person for spiritual service and every believer has a gift or gifts with this focus in mind of being able to serve the body of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: and Ephesians four is one of the passages that deal with this also first Corinthians twelve where first Corinthians twelve talks about the issue of for the common good right or the edification of the body and this is why each of us are given a gift this is also why Paul deals with in there that you shouldn't use like one gift to be sort of singled out
[SPEAKER_00]: from all the other gifts because they're all important because he goes on to talk about you know if we were all an eye right where would you know the hearing be and so on and so he establishes the necessity for all these gifts and Ephesians four you also deals with the issue of the common good or edification
[SPEAKER_00]: because he talks about in four, twelve, the ministry of those who have been given as gifts to the church and then the ministry of each member and the church verse thirteen unto the attaining of the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's everyone's active involvement in serving together.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd say the first thing is that spiritual gift is in relation to an individual that God has enabled
[SPEAKER_00]: every believer for spiritual service the second then I would say from Ephesians four is that
[SPEAKER_00]: spiritual gift is also seen in regards to a person uniquely equipped for the church's edification and given as a gift to the church because Paul talks about apostles' prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are gifted individuals given as gifts to the church for the building up of the body, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that for the equipping of the saints so that they could go out and minister to one another and then that is for the building up of the body and the edification.
[SPEAKER_00]: of the church so it's a gift given to individuals but also individuals given as gifts to the church and I would say probably the third thing in regards to talking about spiritual gifts is that they shouldn't be confused with natural talents and often times that there is that confusion there could be a relation between the two in the sense that you could use your spiritual gift
[SPEAKER_00]: and manifest it through your talent say if you had the gift of like an encouragement or what have you then you could and then you have the ability to you know sing and play music and that that you could use that natural talent then to use your manifest your gift towards the body of Christ but I wouldn't confuse the two and sometimes people do that because when they talk about what I'm serving in the body I'm using my talents
[SPEAKER_00]: but you may not be using your spiritual gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you might sort of limit yourself and say, okay, well, I'm doing this as a part of the worship team, but there may be more that you could be doing in the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a brother who is a part of worship and he plays guitar and he sings and so on.
[SPEAKER_00]: but he teaches midweek Bible study and so obviously then using his gift in that area to do that and so he's not limiting himself to just one aspect of but he realizes that he's got a talent but also has spiritual gift in in this other area
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what, say you take, take that, take that, um, example right there, someone who's musically talented, but also I'm assuming you're saying he's gifted a teaching, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the difference between being gifted a teaching and being talented at teaching?
[SPEAKER_00]: well sometimes well it's interesting because sometimes that happens in the church like you'll have someone who and it's usually with kids like if you have someone who's like a you know elementary school teacher they automatically think this person is equipped to also
[SPEAKER_00]: teach kids, and so oftentimes, if they're someone on the church who's an elementary school teacher, they'll come and approach him and say, would you be willing to teach Sunday school?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there isn't necessarily a crossover, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you could, there could be that relationship of that, you know, you can
[SPEAKER_00]: you know be able to be a teacher communicator scripture as well as be you know someone who's naturally you know equipped to be able to teach
[SPEAKER_00]: in school setting, but handling the scripture is a much different than dealing with, you know, teaching academics and textbooks because you're dealing with things like, you know, not only dealing with a different types of literature, but you're dealing with interpretation, you're also then dealing with
[SPEAKER_00]: understanding the spiritual principle that's given even concepts doctrine right theology so on and all these things and then being able to put them together in a way which you communicate them to others in which they're understandable to them so just because one can teach it one realm does not necessarily mean that they're they're gifted to teach in the other it's kind of like thinking that someone is
[SPEAKER_00]: If someone's an extrovert, obviously, they have the gift of evangelism.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not necessarily so.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen people who are total introverts, and man, they just are like sharing the gospel all the time they're on fire for the fate, and you wouldn't put the two together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think going back to the teaching one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that the teaching of the word to anyone, kids, adults otherwise, like the process of preparing and teaching that is different than the process of preparing and teaching any other subject?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because one is pure intellect for the most part when you're teaching in a secular or a natural setting in school, where you're not taking truths and applying to life and helping them walk through, applying these principles and so on to life and understanding the things of God and that there are dynamics to that that aren't the same as teaching in a classroom just sort of
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, passing on facts a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_00]: right there's there's insight that you can have into people and personalities in a way that that man functions and dealing with you know in particular truths and issues that maybe someone else doesn't have that that ability it isn't that they can't like for you know every believer it isn't that they can't read and understand right turbo scripture and then be able to pass each truth on to others but there clearly is
[SPEAKER_00]: there are clearly those who have an ability to be able to process these things in such a way in which and to a level which it's not like across the board the same for everybody and then to be able to present those truths to others.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think so so take again sticking with teaching
[SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to the job of someone who is teaching or preaching, would you call teaching and preaching, are they the same or are they not the same?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there are two different modes of expressing truth and communicating truth, preaching is different than teaching because you're
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more of a proclamation and so you're basically presenting the principles and concepts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes look at it as essentially like introducing people to passages.
[SPEAKER_00]: And truth and the teaching is more of a coming alongside of.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot more drawn out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's more of, could be more instructive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, usually it's like you're, when you're preaching, you're giving the principles, making them clear, showing what the passage, the kernel of passages and the surrounding elements.
[SPEAKER_00]: but then teaching my come along side and really then help you work it out as far as applying these things to life.
[SPEAKER_00]: What does it more look like in your life and so on and so forth?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have the time and preaching to do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that with either teaching or preaching that, trying to think of the best way to phrase this question,
[SPEAKER_01]: is the process of someone who is truly at the optimal state of preaching the word is an opportunity in which God speaks through the person preaching to the people there.
[SPEAKER_01]: The person preaching may not know the needs of those in the room who needs to hear what but God knows and is given them the words to say ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they are faithful to just trying to do their job and not try to take it out of their control and persuade people and like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, do the Holy Spirit's work for them, but if they leave that to God and do their job properly, then God will speak two individuals' hearts in a way that couldn't be done if God was not the one speaking through this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And once it's true on every level as a believer communicating the truth to others, I mean, one, the only authority that one has is a believer is the Word of God, thus the same for anyone who preaches or teaches.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only authority you have is not your own intellect nor your own personal insight or opinions.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's simply the truth of God's Word.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you always keep in mind when you're preaching or teaching the Word of God is that the Spirit is not only the one working in you and the process of studying and preparing the message and whatever you're going to teach, but also
[SPEAKER_00]: he's at work in the hearts of those as they hear what is being proclaimed and he's opening the eyes of their heart to understand and grasp the truth and you never know it's like you have such a diverse audience when preaching and teaching you don't always know what aspect is going to hit them it's all up to the spirit to do that and I think that also a difference between preaching and teaching because preaching
[SPEAKER_00]: you have more of this proclamation of principle and it's more of you know keeping the body all moving in the same direction in life right but then the teaching is to come alongside of and it could be in a in a less formal
[SPEAKER_00]: and more relaxed setting of helping them then you know take these trees and then bring them out in life whatever unique situations are then you help them work through that which then would lead into you know the issue of counseling and that kind of thing where you do it on a personal one or one
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't, I know, and again, I don't want to, I don't want to, because there's clearly a clear difference in teaching of preaching, but I'm kind of using them both as the dual example.
[SPEAKER_01]: But not to just swap over to preaching, but I guess if it's preaching is also a spiritual gift, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: is an ideal situation for a preacher, one in which they approach the word for that week, seeking the spirit to open their eyes to what they need to see whether that is for their own personal growth or insights, which obviously I'm assuming that any preacher that's doing their job well is being changed by the word that they're preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, whether they understand it, know it, see it in the moment or not, and they probably don't usually see it in the moment, opens their eyes to things that they need to see that need to be said that, then the spirit is also preparing the hearts of certain people for the hearing of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all, I'm not gonna attempt to work that I think I should say here, but it's all reliant on
[SPEAKER_01]: on the spirit opening the eyes of the preacher and I guess or teacher to the truth that they need to see that could just be for the people that they're then going to talk to whether that's one-on-one individually, whether that is preaching to the full congregation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the spirit is also in the process of opening the hearts of those who need to hear those truths that are now being unveiled to the preacher or teacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: is that kind of what the process should look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting because there are times where I, you know, knowing people in the body, I really try to stay away from trying to direct a message at anybody because I've learned, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know how the spirit is going to impact and what also keeping in mind that so then you have people who have been prepared all week long
[SPEAKER_00]: for what the Spirit is going to have them receive on Sunday.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's part of the process of us as ministers of the Word being open to what the Spirit is doing and how he's leading because there's even times where, you know, you've got your outline, you've got your notes and everything, you've worked through the passage and that, and then you're preaching it, but there are times where
[SPEAKER_00]: if you're if you're truly leaning on him he opens the eyes of your heart and you start putting pieces together while you're preaching and you start understanding like you're really whoa I didn't see his before but I see it so clearly while I'm preaching right and it's like things are falling into place
[SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, you're led to then just proclaim these things that you're seeing at that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you just trust that, you know, he's gonna do what he's gonna do.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other side is that there are times where I've prepared all week long and thought I understood the passage and then all of a sudden I'm sitting there on Saturday night and it's like, you just get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like everything just falls into place when all week long.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of more belabering it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: There isn't this sense of complete peace that you really get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just trying to put something together and then all of a sudden he hits you with it and you get and then everything just starts falling in place and you don't have to work at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's just coming you see it in the text it's there and you just laid out and I've completely just read down a whole entire sermon the night before just because you know you find I finally gain an understanding of what's going on
[SPEAKER_00]: and that sometimes it's like that when you're preaching because you know I've got to move on to the next thing and you just sort of keep processing but sometimes you just get into this routine of preparing and not really processing the truth for yourself and and so spirit works in a way in which he just helps you to understand but that is always the
[SPEAKER_00]: I always use Ezra seven ten a sort of my guide has always been because this is Ezra devoted himself to study and observe and observe the law of the Lord and then to teach its decrees and laws to the nation of Israel.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he searched the scriptures, he studied them, he sought to apply them to his own life and then he taught them to others.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I think that that's a part of the process of is not just merely us preparing to tell it to somebody else but our lives must be wrestling with the text all the way through the process because part of that I think the illustration
[SPEAKER_00]: for people is the way that it's hit your own life and they can see that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, reaching.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, if it hasn't hit you, you're just lifeless and there's nothing there and people can see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if it really has hit you and it's changed your life then it's going to come out when you're preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even as someone who sat in the congregation for a number of sermons where it to me, the pastor I was listening to, it felt like he was reciting things that he knows.
[SPEAKER_01]: And believes, true that I believe he believes, but nothing that was actually reshaping his life at the moment and changing him and growing him at the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just felt like
[SPEAKER_01]: something that he believed was true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also when you get this a pastor who will just go back to an old sermon, you know, uh, and just be like, oh, I have this one of the books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to always do this one and it's, and it's like, yeah, I mean, it's not that it isn't true.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because kind of my line of questioning is I want to get to the bottom of
[SPEAKER_01]: like we say there's a difference right you can just say that there's a day oh no it's different you know it's like it's it's this and it's that but I want to follow the spirit in this and understand what is exactly that makes it different because at least from what I'm understanding from what you're saying is
[SPEAKER_01]: You could be somebody who wants to be a pastor, wants to preach the Word.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could listen to the grates.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could learn the flow and the cadence and the rhythm and the movement of a good preacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can read the scriptures and read the commentaries and you can put together a good outline and good PowerPoint and deliver it well and yet
[SPEAKER_01]: that doesn't mean that you've been gifted for preaching, because there has to be something more going on than just the preparation of a well constructed sermon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you could be someone that understands how to put together a sermon that doesn't mean that the Spirit is working through you to preach.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if the Spirit doesn't choose to work through you for preaching, then your preaching will land empty
[SPEAKER_00]: time and time again no matter how good you are at making sermons because the spirit is not on your side in it yeah i mean you can you can you can manufacture you can manufacture a sermon but dead doesn't mean you can preach that sermon
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if you understand the rhythm and even if you understand the good talk or a good speaker and you can say the words very well, it seems to be that unless the spirit has chosen to use you
[SPEAKER_01]: The spirit is not going forth and preparing the hearts of those that are going to hear your word.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is not giving you the message that you need to hear in order to actually speak to the hearts of those in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just by your own will decision you've decided I want to preach on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've done your best to just research the facts.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've written the facts down.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know how to deliver me to deliver me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like in any other context.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've done your job as a speaker or you've done your job as a teacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're being a good teacher within the natural world, if that's what you do, but there's another level with him preaching and teaching when it comes to the spirituals that the Spirit has to have chosen to use you otherwise, no matter how good you are at delivery and preparation you're dead in the water.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing supernatural will happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a difference between you know just being a communicator and being a mouthpiece for God and that is essentially what a preacher is but that also then is what puts the burden on
[SPEAKER_00]: the ministry because James warns those who are, you know, teachers in a formal way like that who are the mouthpieces of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: In that sense, the judgment upon them is much more severe than upon just, you know, every other believer who communicates the truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's uniqueness to their role and what God has for them in the church and there's a greater responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: in regards to their communication of the truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the early days in the church, I mean, it's interesting if you read in church history, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there was a time where it was just purely seen as an occupation, one among many that were chosen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you could have these people who did this right in England where this was just a chosen route.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you read about their life and they weren't saved and they lived such a debauch life and yet
[SPEAKER_00]: They chose to quote and quote go into ministry because it provided a comfortable living for them Which you know and then you look at the state of the church when much of that was going on and it was dead in lifeless wife because they weren't a mouthpiece for God they were just communicators and they
[SPEAKER_00]: just chose a path of, you know, a career path as opposed to one who's been gifted and given specifically to the church by Christ himself, to fulfill a certain task, as a huge difference between the two.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then it means that there's no room for pride whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_00]: but absolute humility, and thus then every message that you preach or anything that you teach, you better be on your face before God all the time, because you're going to be held account for every word that comes out of your mouth.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know that there's that sense of burden
[SPEAKER_00]: then that men have an especially here in America because then in ways that that's often times how it can be looked at in ministry is that it's it's a money maker you can write books you can do all of this stuff there's there's money to be had at it but man you're messing with a lot
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's interesting because I mean, I can only assume that's also why a number of times throughout the scriptures.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, for me, the most clear example that I can think of right now is Moses where it's like he was the spokesperson for God for the nation.
[SPEAKER_01]: He'd spoke to Pharaoh and yet he spoke, you know, God chose somebody who was not in any way gifted at speaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not at any way gifted at the things that we're going to be required for him to actually be the mouthpiece for God and I think you know there's a consistent there's clearly a consistent pattern throughout scripture and throughout life as we watch and and walk with God that He chose He chooses those who are the least qualified in a lot of ways to do certain jobs just to show that this is not them this is me and
[SPEAKER_01]: It is just purely because I have chosen to use them.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I had not chosen to use them, they could never have done this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But because I choose to use them, I'm going to do something through them, which I think makes me kind of nervous when for somebody who is Ben chosen to preach clearly has the gift of preaching and yet also is talented.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I feel like it's even harder for someone like that to be a talented communicator or someone who's just naturally funny and charismatic and is also being gifted with the gift to preaching because I feel like it would be easier to blur the line and feel like you're the one delivering the lines that are changing people's lives and forget that it
[SPEAKER_01]: is it to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And no matter how charismatic, no matter how funny, no matter how well you put it together up there, if the spirit chooses not to use you, nothing supernatural, nothing truly deeply spiritual is going to take place.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's why I think then when it comes to spiritual gifts, then there's more of a tendency that they're going to be something that's contrary to who you are naturally, as opposed to something that's complimentary to who you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't mean that it can't be, but in other words, for people to realize and see clearly and distinctly, this is
[SPEAKER_00]: something of God that he has placed upon this individual.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's something about it, right, that people, because people recognize that, I mean, Paul went through the first time passing through, you know, Lister and Derby and so on, and Timothy comes to salvation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know under the ministry of Paul, and then Paul comes back the second time around, and people are testifying to this young man and Paul says, okay, I want to have him alongside of me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are obvious things that they could see that they could bear witness to an affirming.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people do that in our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a part of I think people understanding where and how they are gifted is that there will be a recognition of that in an affirmation of that by those within the body and people will affirm that.
[SPEAKER_01]: do you think so so maybe stepping off of that I'm sure that you know preacher and teacher or two of those gifts that not aren't easy to name in the sense that they're easy to pinpoint when someone is gifted any easier than anything else
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's one of those ones where it's like, well, clearly preaching is a gift to the spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, teaching is a gift to the spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's also a cup a number of other listings where Paul lists different gifts of the spirit, prophecy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll let you list them off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I don't want to miss represent them.
[SPEAKER_01]: those lists that we have, they're not, you wouldn't say that those lists are complete lists.
[SPEAKER_01]: Full stop, these are the gifts, anything else on this list, then it's not a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, because not one of them is meant to be exhaustive, and each one is written, particularly for the nature of the purpose of the writing of that letter, whether it's Romans, whether it's First Corinthians, whether it's Ephesians, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all written for specific purpose, and therefore the gifts that are listed there were done for a reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the fact that they're not exhaustive tells us that there are, you know, mirriots of other gifts that are out there that exist.
[SPEAKER_00]: One person is described as kind of like the spirit has a paint palette and he just takes and mixes a little of this mix with that and just, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: dabs every life according to however he wills to do it right as Christ leads and directs and everyone is is you know given a manifestation of his grace and various ways to various degrees right it's it's how he decides to portion it out you know and so it can be even to whatever degree or measure that you have this ability right
[SPEAKER_00]: some to a greater degree than others.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's all in his hand and his sovereign hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the point of Ephesians four.
[SPEAKER_00]: When talking about the fact that he ascended and descended and ascended to the highest heavens is that he's touched the completeness of filling the entirety of the whole universe displaying his full sovereignty over everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he talks about the issue of these gifts being given by him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's out of his sovereign guidance that he does this for his purpose and his intent for the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, there's not an exhaustive list anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even to take them and try to then put them all together and formulate that list that way is also as far as I'm concerned to be subscription.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why so?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because it's taking each one then out of it's given context and understanding it's original message and we make it something other than what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like your grandmother would she make these amazing quilts.
[SPEAKER_00]: and she would make them out of this fabric, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cut into patterns and designs and everything, but it would be old shirts, jeans, whatever, and you take these things and you take them and you put them all together and you make this amazing pattern and design and everything, but not one of those pieces of material that they cease to be what they originally were.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it made them beautiful and amazing and awe and whatever everybody
[SPEAKER_00]: But that material is not what it used to be, and people do that with Scripture.
[SPEAKER_00]: We take things out of their given context away from the message that they are a part of, and we use them to make our own points with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Ephesians, for I mean, it's simple to see that even just from that passage, because he talks about each gift, you know, each one is given a gift in verse seven.
[SPEAKER_00]: Verse sixteen, he comes back to that idea of each one,
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Working in their own specific way, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Using their gifts for the building up of the body of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he doesn't give any kind of listing of gifts at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just tells you you have him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's no sense of cross-reference this letter to see what gives you may have.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just says that everyone has them and the point is just get there and start serving and you'll start to see and understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that there is a greater challenge for the person who is
[SPEAKER_01]: clearly been given a gift such as preaching or teaching where it has been not only defined the not only has the role been defined fairly well within the scriptures, but also there is a long list of people who have clearly held the same gift as you that you can look to and see how they function in and around this gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there more difficulty in that or for someone who possesses a gift that is just has is in unnamed gift?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something that is specific more slightly specific to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely has been, you know, obviously it's probably been a similarly gifted to others throughout the years and even now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not like it's completely individual and that's they're the first person ever, you know, possess a gift like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that there is more struggle for the one or the other, or is it just kind of both have their highs and lows?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think sometimes there is a struggle with, you know, for those who can sort of, you know, put a face to the name, so to speak, right, who can, you know, I'm a pastor, right, pastor teacher, because those two go together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's harder in that sense because there is this element of comparison.
[SPEAKER_00]: and instead of realizing that we may have, it's like Paul with the other apostles, they're all apostles, but they're all totally different.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so unique in all the ways that God used them, the lives that they touched, the places that He took them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, even with Galatians, they came to that conclusion, look, you got your spear and I have my spear, you just, you know, shook hands and kiss and brace and said, go do your ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's hard when you, when you share that to see that you are unique and there doesn't need to be a comparison and actually it's sinful to start comparing yourself with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So once it's I think it's helpful for people when they can't just put a name on it, but they can see and use their gift and every time they serve right and get involved in and do ministry it's like it will be manifested.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that there's a less of a tendency in that sense to start looking at other people and start comparing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, we kind of do that anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's one of the things I dealt with going through Ephesians four is that we start comparing ourselves to other churches.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody is unique in a sense that God has gifted every church uniquely in a different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he has a design and intent for how he wants that particular body to manifest and minister within a community and within the individual lives of the people that are there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he does, as he designs it, and he can then transplant.
[SPEAKER_00]: He can take some from this part of his garden and put it in that part of the garden because he has specific purposes for why he's doing this and how he's
[SPEAKER_00]: building the body up to what it ought to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to just stay out of his way when he does stuff like this, but one of the things that we do to hinder it is when we start looking at churches and we start comparing ourselves to the church down the street and say, I've got to be more like them or we better have all the programs.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have that somehow if we don't have what they have that we're not going to be all that God wants us to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: When in reality he's designed us to be different and even in our own individual lives and how we're gifted.
[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, it's like it's interesting that when he lists these apostles' prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, there's a common denominator in all of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They all handled revelation from God.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was about ministry of the Word, but they did it in different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time,
[SPEAKER_00]: The each gift had something unique about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The prophets were not apostles and apostles were not prophets evangelists, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are not pastors and teachers in vice versa?
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's an element in which evangelists were kind of like apostles and so forth.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it helps us to understand that there is this one that we have a unity but at the same time there is diversity and we don't have to be like each other but we keep sort of looking at life this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean it's funny like I use example of John the Baptist and his disciples and John chapter three so they come to John and they say you know here here's this man down the way and he's baptizing he and his disciples whether talking about Jesus Christ
[SPEAKER_00]: And they said the man that you spoke of, you know, on the other side of the Jordan, he's done, and he's baptizing people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're sitting there looking at, like, look, the masses were coming to you to be baptised by you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were the man, all of a sudden they're going to him and John's going away, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're missing the point, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We were pointing to him, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all about him.
[SPEAKER_00]: but you can see what's going on in their mind they start looking like we were the thing and then all of a sudden the crowds are going somewhere else and you know we we've got to do something about this right and and we find ourselves doing that with other churches we start looking at will you know look how many people are going over there and look what's happened at this one or what's happened at that one and then we start going what do we got to do to be like that what we're not then
[SPEAKER_00]: functioning like the church is meant to function.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not even asking the Lord, what is it that He has for us to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: We just start looking at other churches and we start defining for us what we need to look like and be like.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my fears that just happens far too often in the church, that means that we have local churches that are not functioning as God intends them to function and be like He wants them to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: because they're so caught up in this whole Senate comparison.
[SPEAKER_01]: which would which would leave these like I think that that could leave these churches in a place where it feels it feels like whether they know it or not but there's a death there's a deadness and a lifelessness spiritually within their church because the spirit isn't moving like they're they are not they are not working with the spirit they are not like like you say with the pastor teach like the preacher you know it's like
[SPEAKER_01]: This only works if I have chosen to, if the Spirit is chosen to use that person and they walk accordingly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if all of that flows smoothly, the Spirit will then use them to manifest the power of God in the lives of other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like are the church supposed to be this community of people that have all come together and the Spirit is now interworking through all of them to accomplish whatever greater work God wants to accomplish through that body.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as soon as we
[SPEAKER_01]: you know decide that we actually want to accomplish something else it looks a little bit better there let's do this instead you get to this place where the church is doing all of the churchy things and yet there is no working alongside the spirit and nothing actually is happening no power is being is being manifested through them nothing is being done it's just an organization of people that get together and participate in an activity every week and that's really all it is now
[SPEAKER_00]: And I believe that you are quenching the spirit and that because you're not serving and how he would want you to serve.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because what happens then is that people do this and say, okay, you have this program.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you say, OK, these are programs that we're going to have in the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just these, this is all we're going to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people look at it and say, you know, either they look at it and say, you know what, I don't see how I fit into this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so obviously, I can't do anything or they're in it, but there's no relationship there.
[SPEAKER_00]: They go in their present.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're there, but they're not building a relationship with individual people and thus then, you know, truly using their gift and being led by the spirit to minister into the individual lives that are there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're quenching the spirit because you're not walking in him.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not being led by him, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not yielding yourself to him for him to bear forth fruit through your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: How he would choose to do so.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're now dictating how that church and body is going to function.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is why I find it so interesting that you have pastors and teachers and elders to think that somehow they design a strategy for the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: Says who?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's only one head.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's only one person that controls the church and that's Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not for us to design a strategy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's for us to ask him what it is he wants us to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when we look at our individual lives like this last week I met with several groups of pastors and in the process of doing so I was introduced to other ministries that were happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have to sit there and ask myself, okay, God's sovereignly brought this together, the way that He, you know, through my relationship with someone else, through someone else, we now get together in the setting with these pastors and here about this ministry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, God's putting it before us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does He want us to get involved if He does to what degree?
[SPEAKER_00]: How does it look?
[SPEAKER_00]: right and you start looking at how he is shaping things and leading you as a body and opening up doors and and pointing you in a direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean we have opportunities now with things like with item going over to Africa in different ways of just training pastors
[SPEAKER_00]: There are doors that are starting to be open for other things to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if we sit there and sort of plot out our scheme of how we think this church ought to go before we even ask the Lord and look to the Lord, then it's on us and it's us that are building the church and we're the ones directing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so therefore, I mean, we deceive ourselves and in reality, we're quenching the spirit, we're not yielding to what he would have us do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's so many different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can have a church on every single corner and still still not minister to everybody in the way that he and they need to be minister to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not one body that can touch every single lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's obvious because there are different bodies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, people are impacted in different ways because of how God brings them together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I even look at the body that we're a part of.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are different things as I've watched over the years how God has brought the people that He has brought.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some have gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's moved him onto other places and then other ones have come into place.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're always in looking and saying, okay, so how is he now redefining this body?
[SPEAKER_00]: How is it does he want it to look now?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's also
[SPEAKER_00]: why we need to be more flexible to his leading.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because to try and simply say that we're going to lock ourselves into certain programs and so on, a lot of those are just driven by trends and fads, like anything else, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Busting ministry and this kind of ministry and that kind of ministry and then churches get locked in on that, then people get tired of that and they move on somewhere else because they want to look for the new next best thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of that, man, we are missing the dynamic working of the Spirit and the leading of Christ in our life, and people are being short-changing, and the reality of what they can experience, and they're walk with Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: Simply because we want to control, and this is the reality of every false religion out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about us.
[SPEAKER_00]: telling God how we come to Him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even defining the God that we will worship in the way that we worship Him.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is every false religion, but we do the same thing in Christianity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my fear is in there going to be people who truly are going to stand before the Lord and He's going to say, I don't know you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We never had a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to be someone who propagates a setting in which people are easily groomed for that kind of existence that they think they are but they're really not.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it isn't just about mental ascent to embracing certain doctrines.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about intellectualism because there are those who go down that journey and that kind of mindset and that's also missing the bow.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's unfortunate because it's like the way that we handle spiritual gifts, we stand people and keep them from really being able to understand fully what God wants to do through life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So giving an example of this ministry I was introduced to.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's sort of like a gap here ministry for the target is ages eighteen to twenty five young people but they've also had people recently who were in their fifties as a part of this ministry that just trying to figure out what got has for the next and it's very missions oriented in that it's interesting because they were sharing about this young man that came to be a part of this ministry just didn't know if he should go to Bible school or you know
[SPEAKER_00]: move into a career but didn't know what career to do, you know, want to get married and wasn't sure, you know, if you should do that because you wouldn't even sure what, you know, path got had form as far as what he wanted to do in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it came to be a part of this program and what they do is each semester that's a two semester thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first semester you do a mission strip at the end of that semester and everything is building to two missions.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so the end of the first semester they do an international trip and they have all these missionaries around the world that they're connected with.
[SPEAKER_00]: That they can go do ministry with and then the second semester ends with a national trip where they go around the major cities in the US
[SPEAKER_00]: and they interact with synagogues and Christian reading moves all of this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you get a sense of the religious culture as well as the culture that is in America and the diversity of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this young man went off to Romania after the first semester and he's there and there's an international church there that this ministry was connected with and
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's an international church because there is a medical school there where students come from all over the world to study at this school and many of them can speak English and so there were missionaries who planted a church there and mainly it was a big influence because of the school that they could reach out to all of these various
[SPEAKER_00]: people groups because they're all spoken English but then they can send them back into their native countries right and plant churches and so on well he goes there and he is a part of this ministry and and got obviously had given him natural ability to just pick things up well he started he learned two different languages while he was there French was one of them
[SPEAKER_00]: He decided to apply for the medical school and got in, met a young woman there, who's a believer, got married, and now he's part of the ministry in Romania.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you just simply walked into context where someone just locks up and says, okay, these are the only areas in which you can serve and do, he would have never felt free to follow God's leading and guiding, to do something radical like that, like apply for a medical school,
[SPEAKER_00]: which that was never on his horizon at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: He would have never even thought about that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or even the realization that he could pick up language is he just never knew he had that ability to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But being in that context then, falling God's leading,
[SPEAKER_00]: This is where then, and then therefore God designed for Him what He wanted Him to do with His life and all of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you look at that and say, that's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's how every single one of us could and should be living, but we're not because we keep wanting to control and to define what God does.
[SPEAKER_00]: We limit by saying, I can't do this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he wants you to go teaching a ceremony, but you say, I can't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not my wheelhouse, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We say this oftentimes to ourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just not my wheelhouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's not my thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not comfortable with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you don't know how God has gifted you unless you're willing to step into these other areas of need.
[SPEAKER_00]: and see what he will do in a through you and you will find out things about what God has enabled you to do and given you capability of doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we just sort of draw lines in the sand and most often it's because of our personality.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we even seek in how we look in our spiritual gifts.
[SPEAKER_00]: We limit them based on our personality.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm an introvert.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's no way I can have the gift of evangelism.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't talk to an unbeliever or you know, I'm just not very smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can't go teaching a school somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can attest to my own personal experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, as someone who's still in the process of really understanding their gifting, I've, I think over the last, over, you know, most of my life, it's, there's been certain things that have been made clear to me that like, okay, and we'll get into in another episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: how do we understand our gift, how do we discover what our gift is, the way is going about that, maybe we'll do that next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of clear to me, one of my, like there's a part of my gift, it involves heavy conversation with other people and
[SPEAKER_01]: I am somebody who it's it's it's truly when I am participating in that and when I am doing that the way that is The way that I am capable of doing it when the spirit is working through me I have never done something more fulfilling in my life But I don't really like talking to people that much and it's not necessarily a fear It's just I really really do enjoy a lot of my life to be alone
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I do not I love people of hangout people, but I'm just somebody who just enjoys I just enjoy being on my own and and being able to be left to my own thoughts and thinking and doing my own thing and yet
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very clear that one of the gifts that God has given me involves the relationships where I am sitting down and talking to people and not just talking to people for a little while, talking to people for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it can only flourish in that context, which means that I need to step
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's a weird dichotomy because I love it and it's the greatest thing that I can participate in doing and yet it's so hard to take the first step to do it because it involves me starting a conversation when I would much rather not.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, and that seems, in a lot of ways how it goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we find ourselves being like, all right, well, it's gotta be over here because this is what I like to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's gotta be something over in the midst of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: because this is where I flourish, you know, and it's like, well, you know, which
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think, again, we'll talk next week about how to, you know, discovering your gift and figuring out what it is and how to use it and, you know, what gifts are supposed to be used for, but yeah, definitely don't box yourself into a place where you think it has to be within your things that you just enjoy, especially where you, I mean, it's hard to look past where you think you're not good at things, but
[SPEAKER_00]: certainly don't only look in the areas where you're like well this is what I enjoy doing so I hope my gift is over here because it's probably not well it's interesting so one of the interesting passages for me as far spiritual gifts are concerned is in the book of Acts and it starts in chapter six
[SPEAKER_00]: And I most would go there, but when I read through it and really started thinking about it, I'm like, this is an amazing passage.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you also then have to look at it and light at the rest of Acts.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in Acts six, there's a need in the church, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There are Jews that there are widows who weren't being ministered to, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: In regards to the body of Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: They, it's known to the apostles and the apostles say, look, we have to be about the word and prayer.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they understood their role, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll just leave it there at that for the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they understood their role was about the word and about prayer, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they said, you need to find some men who can take on this ministry of serving waiting on tables, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And caring for these widows.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at first, I thought, well, that's kind of demeaning, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, what are they looking at?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a lesser thing for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want it, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're two ways for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I realized when they gave the requirements for the men, they wanted men who were truly spiritual men who were spirit, led and guided.
[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, they took it as serious as what they were doing, ministering the word in prayer that they wanted, not just anybody, but these needed to be godly men and the body had to affirm that in their life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And two of them were Stephen and Philip.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here they are, they're going to wait on these widows and care for the ministering to them by, you know, caring for them with food and so on, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Providing for their material needs, but also their spiritual needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so here they're going to care for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then we find Steve and after that, preaching an amazing sermon.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you read it, I mean, it's just an amazing sermon, which ends up leading to his death, but it was the threshold over which the gospel left Jerusalem and spread out into the rest of the world into the Gentile world.
[SPEAKER_00]: But not only that, but you have Philip, who we later find out next, has the gift of evangelism.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the only one we know who's been called the evangelist.
[SPEAKER_00]: and we see him in Samaria, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And with the Ethiopian unique, so the Spirit did unique things with him where he leads Ethiopianic to Christ and then all of a sudden he's snatched and he's gone, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he's down in Samaritan.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they all had their role, but at the same time, there were other things that they did, Stephen waited on tables, but he also could breach.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had Philip who waited on tables, but he also was the evangelist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had the apostles who were concerned with the word and prayer, but yet then we find out they were gifted to do miracles and different things like that, and they had different spheres in which they operated.
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter primarily among Jews, although he was the first to deal with Cornelius, right, and bring news of Gentiles, and then you have Paul who has his ministry to the Gentiles.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is this sense in which you have them aware of their gift and roles and so on, but at the same time, there are different things that they could still do even beyond that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so part of it is like, you know, just being open to you, look, even if you understand what your gift is, be open that there's more there that God has for you, or different ways in which you can manifest that gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: because you may have a gift that isn't just limited to you standing before the church on Sunday morning and preaching.
[SPEAKER_00]: There may be other elements in ways in which God can use you and that gift that He has given you or gifts.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we start living, say, okay, well, I'm a table waiter and I just care for physical needs and that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we say that that's all, then we start drawing a line in the sand and say, God, can't do anything more through me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you may find if you surrender and are willing to follow him as he leads in your life, he might open up doors into things you never even imagined that he could do through you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it seems, it seems to be, and again, we'll get more into this, but like, my, our focus should be the practice and the learning of a life surrender to God, not the practice and the learning of our spiritual gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say like the first thing should be you trying to put a name to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just get out there and serve and see what God's going to do in and through you and you will come to understand and people will affirm that around you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and even once you, even once you know what your gift is, and even once you've seen, say one of your gifts, say you have one that clearly, you know, manifests itself in people are like, yeah, this is deaf.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, this is you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's clearly something that God's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even then you don't go okay awesome got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go from here It's then just a continued submission to God and just saying okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna just continue to walk the change to be faithful to you Follow you speak when you tell me to speak stop me tell me to stop go where you want me to go and Allow I mean because again at the end of the day The only I mean not the only thing but like what separates the gift a gift from the talent is that the spirit is
[SPEAKER_01]: is you are working is working through you to accomplish this task.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not up to you to now, but like, all right, now that I figured it out, I'm going to go take on the world with my gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I'm going to just continue to faithfully be submitted to God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Walking is will walking or lying on the power of the Spirit because this gift is only a thing that can happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: as long as this spirit continues to work through me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I need to make sure that I am moving one with the will of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, the spirit is not going to work against the will of God.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and you might find that there are different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are two pastors that I know now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like they were both missionaries, gift of evangelism, and they're out there planning churches for years and years of their life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of a sudden they're pastoring a church.
[SPEAKER_00]: And neither of them would have ever thought that this is what they would be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But just yielding to God in his direction in their life, this is where he is brought them to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't by choice and nor by their own design.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then so they come to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're going, you know, can I do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, why can't you do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the head.
[SPEAKER_00]: He directs you.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells you, he gives you the gifts and enablement.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the one who's going to unfold for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: What he wants to do with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, I said, so don't start to question yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because another thing, why didn't go to Bible school?
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't go to seminary right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't had all this training.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said,
[SPEAKER_00]: That isn't what makes you who you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the gift of this that God has given you that defines who you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: He defines us.
[SPEAKER_00]: The school doesn't define you.
[SPEAKER_00]: A board of people who you stand before, whether they ordain you or don't ordain you, they don't define you.
[SPEAKER_00]: God defines you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I said you know before the Lord that this is where He has you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, just step into it and do what He has for you to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, again, you know, it's like not that that other forms of training are going to bother school in seminary or bad, but if you had to get two options, either an inexperienced person who has never done this before, but the spirit is decided to use and is going to empower and work through or someone with all of the training at the most prestigious schools in the world who the spirit has no interest in using for this job.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, which one are you going to choose?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's your name?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to take as there is no schooling to compete with the spirit deciding that he is going to do what he wants to do and he is chosen this person to do it to do it through.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because someone can can read and gather facts and then regurgitate him does not.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is not a supernatural gift.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is that is yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I find that there are even people in the body where I find like they just don't understand that there's a brother I'm dealing with down I'm trying to figure out how to to lovingly bring him to an understanding of but for him it's like it's just about espousing you know
[SPEAKER_00]: facts and even if it's truth from scripture right there isn't this sense of truly ministering the truth though it's just it's just like throwing these things at people right and just quoting verses and then expecting like that's gonna change it right
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, no, it's coming alongside of and walking with them through life and helping them to understand these principles as the spirit opens the eyes of their heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the assumption is simply because you've stated it, oh, they got it now and they're gonna put it in a practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm simply thinking, but you don't do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't do this to God.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't sit down and read your Bible.
[SPEAKER_00]: See a truth and immediately respond to it, no, babe.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I know that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you've told me you don't evangelize ever to anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're not obedient to making disciples, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like you can see these things in your own life or you're not doing that but then you turn around and expect it just because I state these facts and truths to someone like somehow that's enough and it's like no and so you just sort of, you know, lead yourself into thinking that you're doing something when you're not doing anything at all really to serve the body
[SPEAKER_01]: which I think is I think it's why this these last podcasts that we've done these last episodes talking about different you know they're broken up into certain different topics and things with the baptism of the spirit and spiritual gifts and so on and so forth but like again at the end of the day it's all still our relation to the Holy Spirit which when I mean
[SPEAKER_01]: It's some people probably managed to do this, but you can't be a Christian and overlooked Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, he's pretty clear cut.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's pretty ridden right into the roots.
[SPEAKER_01]: His name is in the name.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to do something with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the whole testament, you know, we're dealing with with God is just a whole totality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, you see the manifestations of both the Son and the Spirit, but still.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like the Father, the Son, their relationship is pretty just like nailed in during the Gospels.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know it's hard to let go of those but the spirit again is one of those ones that can be so overlooked or it's just like a tag on it's like oh yeah well when I say father son I say holy spirit with it because it's a part of that whole thing you know and that's all it is just like well it's just like a part of the whole god thing it's like the spirit you know and we could be left in a place where
[SPEAKER_01]: No wonder our faith feels if you're someone who's been a Christian for you know
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, a couple of years or a couple of decades.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you've been a Christian for decades and you've never actually understood what your gift was.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've never, you've never utilized it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've, you know, maybe you've just assumed on talented at this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I must be this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've led worship for for two decades.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, yeah, well, you're gifting went, you just talented at music.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean you're gifted in a certain area.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you could wonder why your faith and your spirituality and your walk of God feels so intangible, feel so lifeless, feel so powerless, especially when you look at the stories from Scripture and see what God has capable of, like what I've never seen, any movement of God like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, you know, you've completely abandoned walking in the world of God, which then
[SPEAKER_01]: follows with the power of the Spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, all of these people when you see in the New Testament, God doing miraculous things, realize these people, they were walking faithfully with the will of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the Spirit is empowering the will of God to be done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's just like no wonder there's probably there's so many people, especially, so I can speak for the country that we're in, where
[SPEAKER_01]: They've been a Christian for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've probably even served in their church for a long time, and yet they have never experienced what it was like to have the spirit empower them to do something supernatural.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean just a power to heal or to speak in tongues or to whatever, but to do something ministry-wise where it's like, that was not of myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something else happened there, and I couldn't have made that happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like if you to miss out on that is got to be like I don't know what holds you into your I mean it's just the the sheer love the routine of religion I guess but like don't don't don't spend your whole life missing out on that you know
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it's essentially the entirety of our life as a believer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's sense that whether it's the fruit of the spirit, the graces, humility, gentleness, kindness, or the gift in of itself as far as, you know, ministering to others and doing service in the body, it's like all of it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like all of that is about us just yielding to the spirit working in and through us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think this was a great, a great foundation to getting into the gifts of the spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a load more questions to get into.
[SPEAKER_01]: And any of them were going to send us into a whole other rabbit hole of conversation that'll be at least another thirty minutes deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think this is probably a good stopping point over this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: And next week we'll get into more of the conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to put a name on what we're going to get into next week as who knows.
[SPEAKER_01]: God could guide us wherever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is great and I'm very excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like very intrigued by
[SPEAKER_01]: like I just would like to see the spirit be more real to me like and I think my lack of understanding of who he is and what my relationship is to him and what our relationship and that's not only just personally but I think it's something that I've heard you talk about a lot recently which I'll be excited to hear you continue to be able to get into that as we talk to these things but the relation is a church to hold and you know just how many churches just exist without the spirit
[SPEAKER_01]: with no participation of them and the spirit together in anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just them doing church, doing the motions of church, you know, predetermining, oh, well, these are the things church posts.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's what's do I want to?
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's do an I want to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get a couple of people that are good with kids, maybe some mom, something like that, throw them in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet none of this was guided.
[SPEAKER_01]: by the will of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: None of this was empowered by the spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing long lasting or outstanding is taking place and yet they would never know because it's like, well, this is what church supposed to be, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We got the kids to memorize the verses that was our job.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in reality, every program is man made.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Christ left no program.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not a single one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Period.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anything after that has just been us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really make it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It should really challenge us to start questioning why do we do what we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's true we could be we could be grieving and and and quenching the spirit repeatedly in our life and not even realize that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and you know, let's not just wait for next week's episode to to start a drastic and our own personalized like if if you're somebody listening or, you know, even myself probably needs to sit with this, but like
[SPEAKER_01]: I probably need to repent over, overquenching the spirit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to sit down and take time to reflect on the fact that I've definitely been guilty of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've definitely, you know, done a lot of Christian things on my own.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've also neglected to do a lot of things that would have unveiled the spirit to me and unveiled the will of God to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was just not worth my time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or it just wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not really something I'm interested in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But maybe that's your thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we should definitely be fighting on that, depending over that and looking to first some transformation in our life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And none of that will be possible without the help of the helping hand of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess until next week's episode.