[SPEAKER_02]: All right, ladies and gentlemen, all of you good, wonderful citizens of Cripp Nation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to another episode of the crypto one-o-one podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am super pumped.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a guest joining us today who's already been on the show back in October of this past year, October of twenty twenty four.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the redstone co-founder, Marcine Casmiarcheck, calling in and going to have a great talk with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Marcine, how are you doing today?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've been fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Business is growing, a load of challenges and interesting use cases on the horizon.
[SPEAKER_00]: So really pumped about this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for joining us for staying up late.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe you're on the other side of the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, uh, we're over here just getting the day started.
[SPEAKER_02]: Brendan, how are you doing, man?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing good as well, Bryce.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, enjoying some of the volatility, preparing a little bit for the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the overall just good and happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Redstone is playing a really important role in the crypto industry, particularly as it comes to real-world assets or this whole theme of tokenization.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, Marcine, we want to have you jump into, really like the core message, the core mission, the vision that you guys are building, you know, at Redstone, you know, why do you get to decide to build this protocol in this platform?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good place to start.
[SPEAKER_00]: We started a redstone to create the most scalable and builder useful Oracle platform out there, delivering reliable, secure, and diversified data feeds.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is the infrastructure we've been building since late, twenty, twenty, early, twenty one is ready to support thousands of blockchains.
[SPEAKER_00]: almost infinite number of assets and all the builders that are out there, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So by principle is just that we are ready for the mass adoption of the blockchain technology globally.
[SPEAKER_00]: We believe that ledger that technology is fundamentally better than the financial system that was created like use back and is very much segregated and detached from each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: They use the US financial system is different than European land and Europe.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have Poland where I call from where we have a lot there which is another currency and we have our own banking system and you go to I don't know Singapore or Japan and they have their own banking system and all of those systems do not talk with each other like efficiently.
[SPEAKER_00]: So our belief is blockchains are just ultimately more efficient.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in those blockchains you just need to deliver accurate data feeds because blockchains by nature don't have access to real-world information from the internet or from day-to-day basis like what's happening at the economy or governments and whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we want to be this critical infrastructure that is enabling that for all the builders so that you can build
[SPEAKER_00]: and informed smart contracts, defy applications, composable finance, and all the other juicy and beautiful staff that the blockchain technology gives you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you're really what I would call the connective tissue between a lot of defy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's important because, you know, people might not really be, you know, familiar with the redstone platform because it's not maybe as front and center or something like Uniswap where people are on the front and using it day in and day out.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it really is a lot of the infrastructure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, are there areas of redstone where the user or the consumer is really going to be interfacing or are you guys going to just be interfacing with other protocols, other developers,
[SPEAKER_02]: and so on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are the, let's call them silent nights of making sure that the protocols are secure and the funds of the users that the deposit are priced correctly that no wrongful liquidations are happening in defy markets because primarily right now at least Oracle's are used for making sure the liquidations happen when they are supposed to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when the position hits the liquidation threshold,
[SPEAKER_00]: And everything in DFI is without but that because this is very contagious and can spread across other protocols and can cause like also a dominant effect out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can say that we would behave like the night so making sure that everything is very much secure in according to the book in that sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talking about the user-facing aspect, in example, we did launch a token since we chatted last time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in March of this year, six of March, we launched RET, which is the primary token for the RETstone ecosystem that allows users to stake it on eigen layer ADS.
[SPEAKER_00]: and secure the ecosystem of redstone, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So making sure the data feeds that are delivered by data providers in the system are up-to-date, accurate, and in the case, there is any malfunction they can be soluble as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a couple of ideas for user-facing products to can I share the screen of it here by the way?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe those permissions should be enabled on the bottom of your screen should say share
[SPEAKER_02]: feel free.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, if people are following along on Spotify or Apple with no video, hop on over to YouTube and you will be able to check out some of these cool graphics.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, can you see that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so for everyone who's listening on, you know, Spotify, I'm presenting app.redstone.finus, which is essentially like a user-facing interface for the data feeds that we deliver, specifically on the push model.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can see that we deliver all together, five hundred, twenty-two unique like tickers in the push model.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you go to the pull model, you're going to see that it's two hundred, fifty-six in production used right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And data feeds, so all the stickers that we have configured, but not all of them are actively used, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We have over one thousand, three hundred over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you go to the push model, so maybe quick reminder push versus pull.
[SPEAKER_00]: in simplistic terms.
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine you have data of chain and push model is pushing it onto the destination blockchain in intervals.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in example here you can see B and B chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can see the address where the updated feed is being done.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in example, let's take this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Vibil, which is the tokenized Tbil market fund by Van Ek and Redstone is the sole
[SPEAKER_00]: Oracle delivering that price feed on bnbchain to that contract and you can see the latest answer was one dollar and the deviation threshold upon which the next update is going to happen is ten bips so zero point one percent and it updates every twenty four hours regardless whether the deviation threshold is met or not right so those are the two major conditions for the push model
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you go into a specific like feed over here, you're going to also see like historically how it has been behaving.
[SPEAKER_00]: This one is, you know, tea bills.
[SPEAKER_00]: So nothing spectacular.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just holds like one dollar, but on other fees.
[SPEAKER_00]: like BTC would see like more volatility.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is one of the aspects that let's say users can go and play around to see historical data to look on the networks that we support right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are sixty-six in the push model and one hundred ten across both push and pull all the crypto so they can select specific one to see how it's configured across the chains.
[SPEAKER_00]: But one thing I want to show you, that is the feature we haven't announced yet publicly, so giving you guys alpha, is if you go to send update transaction, you've got a note that update with metamask with metamask transaction, if you click that, you're going to be informed that besides the regular deviation threshold in hardbeat,
[SPEAKER_00]: You as a user can update the feed right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can essentially ensure that at that particular moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you click push on chain and update, you would get a metamask notification to execute the transaction.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to pay gas for that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you interact with the blockchain so you update the state on chain for the freshest data.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason you can do that is because every single package like this has a unique signature to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you were to, in example, click push on chain and then try to tamper with the data that is within this package, the signature is going to change and the online validation of the signature is going to revert because it's going to be changed, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So as long as you are just the messenger, let's call it the pusher, then everything is all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason we created that there are two major ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first one is to showcase the user that they can update and unchain themselves so that they can interact a bit more with our infrastructure, which is predominantly B to B focus, but to give them at least an idea of what's happening in the background.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, too, also, if you don't want to trust fully that we keep delivering according to those parameters over here, you can create your own relayer that, you know, would do a zero point three deviation threshold or an example, zero point seven, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you are afraid that we are going to miss zero point five percent,
[SPEAKER_00]: You're free to set up your own relayer that is going to update on chain every zero point seven percent So that in very unlikely case that Redstone fails you have a backup in a sense and here an imported note Redstone has never ever had a single hiccup in a sense of Miss pricing event downtime or not delivering according to those parameters of here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that'll be the quick demo
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: It almost seems like, and I don't know if this is a crude analogy, but similar, but like a chain link two point oh or something where it's kind of connecting a lot of these, you know, disparate value pools and securing so that there's no spoofing or tampering in between the communication channels.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that a helpful way to think of it or a hurtful way to think of it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, depends who is the listener, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: For my perspective, I would compare into change specifically.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have their own decoled DOM, decentralized Oracle network.
[SPEAKER_00]: So only white listed addresses and white listed providers can deliver on chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Issue that we see in that is if those fail, there is no like a proper backup plan to that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because no other person has access to the actual data and delivery on chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: And over here with such a system, you can always configure your backup systems as you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine you would, in fact, configure for, let's call it BTCUSD, like one of the kings of the price feeds on BNB chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: We push it every zero point one percent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we pay gas for every single update on chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is let's call it fairly expensive to maintain.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you want to have a backup, but don't want to incur the cost like ongoingly, you can just set up zero point two over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And only the moment we start missing your system will activate and you know, keep track of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it has never happened historically, but
[SPEAKER_00]: We believe black swans are real, and they happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: People will try to neglect them and try not to think about them, but you have to be ready for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And from the principles we create the system that is just extremely extremely robust.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it's fascinating how Redstone is able to be compatible with so many different blockchains and projects.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what that really empowers you all to do is to help out and bolster a variety of other crypto verticals.
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually when we look at crypto projects, they are kind of hyper focused in on a niche.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Redstone is almost uniquely positioned to help out a number of industries just with what you all do at a base level and how flexible you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen that one of the big areas that you all have been involved with here recently is the RWA and tokenization space and RWA stands for real world assets.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this industry has been one that's just a common reoccurring trend on the pod.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you all again have been getting more and more involved with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What role do you all play in that tokenization side of things?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I hope you don't mind that they do it live demo this time because actually like to brag about the visual aspect of our platform.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as you were mentioning, we play a big role in RWAs and one of the major aspect of it is security ties, which is the biggest organization platform in the world, decided to pick rest zone as the official primer Oracle for all tokenized assets they offer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, we are the official Oracle for a BlackRock Biddle, the Unic Vibil, a Hamilton-Lane scope, and Apollo Acret.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are like the four major funds that secretize tokenizes.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also KKR, some stuff happening on Mantle, and some that are in the works right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we will be providing price feeds on goingly to new and new assets.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there will be a very, very good question why do you need an Oracle in the first place when you tokenize something, when you have a real word asked in the chain?
[SPEAKER_00]: An answer is pretty simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: What securityize does is they do a token representation on chain of a specific asset.
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine you have a, like, let's call it a Tbil.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have one Tbil, and you give it to securityize.
[SPEAKER_00]: What they would do is they take a custody of that Tbil.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they give a talker representation on chain, imagine only two specifically.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that talker representation on chain is living over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: The issue is that talking on chain has zero information about the price of the asset that is in the real world, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: and tables are crucial.
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually it's daily, so specifically for a bit of a daily accrual.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you see over here, like a bit of Ethereum dairy accrual, it's not going to show just one.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to show like the accrual over time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So specific percentage points.
[SPEAKER_00]: that it accrue every single day, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you would put like a magnifying glass to what I'm showing over here is, in example, over here, June tenth at eight a.m.
[SPEAKER_00]: fifty, I believe it's CT or UTC.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember exactly like what it was the configuration over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But every single day at the same time, it's being updated on chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that the protocols have any information.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was the actual
[SPEAKER_00]: yield accrual over the past twenty-four hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as you can see, even over a course of one month, there has been pretty decent variability in that sense, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then specifically, Biddle by BlackRock is also different across specific networks.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Biddle on Solana, Biddle on Ethereum, Biddle on other networks have different asset class.
[SPEAKER_00]: which means they're not fully formidable to each other like one to one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as we progress with real-world assets, we keep on delivering the price feed aspect over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we already are talking about enriching the information with some other data such as volume or maybe information about how many new users onboard it to this specific asset.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a matter of what people actually want to use because
[SPEAKER_00]: The the premise I told you about in the very beginning like being able to support all the builders out there is being executed in the sense that we deliver what people asked for and what they need not necessarily like to deliver everything out there because then we are just going to get distracted and people will also ask like okay what can I do with it and if we don't know what you can do it and you don't know what you can do it that is a problem
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you come to us and ask us, hey, I have this specific problem I would like to solve, then we can bring you a tangible solution.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it's so cool we're at a spot now where BlackRock, the world's largest asset manager over ten trillion dollars in assets under management.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're coming in.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're partnering with the crypto industry and you all are able to be a service provider and even involved in that process.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I got two questions for you in regards to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what is that like and how does that conversation even initiate?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that where like they're seeking you out or is that something where you're seeking them out?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a really good and viable question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I stop sharing, I can come back at any moment, but I believe that's not related to the platform itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're specifically our gateway with security ties.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the story of Redstone is that in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four, we brought a lot of innovation to the defy market.
[SPEAKER_00]: In example, we were the first Oracle to create price feed for USDE for itina, and WEE for Ether-Fi.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were helping LIDO to spread across many blockchains back when liquid-staking tokens were bought, like, you know, twenty-twenty-two.
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember those days very well, very vividly, because that was also the moment that they asked us to use liquid-staking token instead of liquid-staking derivative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe remember initially, they were called LSDs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it turned out that derivative is a pretty problematic word in the regulatory aspect.
[SPEAKER_00]: So liquid-staking token was just more friendly and better for them to utilize.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now that you have this partnership with BlackRock, there's been other, I guess you could call them like financial providers, there's been other asset managers getting into the space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this kind of open up the door to a bunch of other, you know, trad-fine names that can kind of join in in a similar manner?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you already talking?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know if you can even mention this, I'm not sure what you've signed, but are you already talking with like other big asset managers and trad-fine institutions?
[SPEAKER_01]: about doing similar things, or maybe even doing different things where they want to come in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know me and Bryce were talking earlier today, and this is away from the topic of tokenization, but like JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank of America,
[SPEAKER_01]: are all looking into stable coins and you know now that we have a black rock and I believe Vanic and Apollo already working on chain with Solana.
[SPEAKER_01]: You gotta think that there's other big names like that out there that want to get a piece of the pie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot comment on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just joking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on, like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, okay, being like transparent, I was surprised how
[SPEAKER_00]: What to work to use?
[SPEAKER_00]: Easygoing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of those stratified people have been.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because many times a person that is leading, let's call it the digital asset sector, is a guy that is, or a lady that is, let's call it, thirty, thirty, five-year-old.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those people also were growing up getting the first, let's say digital revolution happening, like going from cash to internet money, the first one.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's call it credit cards and regular internet banking services.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they understand also the shift that is happening out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they can use a lot of analogies over the use.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they are still, let's call it
[SPEAKER_00]: Sign it really enough to embrace the next challenge that is going to take again, let's call it ten, fifteen years, altogether to properly embed into the broader economy and the system, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's baby steps, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't in Poland, in example, we, we've never had checks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I believe in the states, it's still a thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You can write a check, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so this is like, I don't even understand exactly like how this financial construct works to be honest and like how not to make sure it's not like, you know, a pampered with and those kind of aspects.
[SPEAKER_00]: But answering your question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: majority of big serious financial institutions right now look into blockchains, and the reasons are simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: One fundamentally, it's a technology that decreases the cost, as I mentioned in the beginning, to the biggest financial institution globally, BlackRock, is very active over there, and Lara Fink, many times mentions Bitcoin, as you know, a very interesting asset class that gives a good exposure for diversification in the portfolio and so on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are new ETFs being discussed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have the Bitcoin and Ethereum one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably so we are going to see Solana and other coins out there, which some people would say, hey, this is against the decentralization nature of blockchain.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would say, look, it's adoption.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if people want to trade ETFs, like why wouldn't you allow them to do so, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Those that truly care about decentralization,
[SPEAKER_00]: would always go to the on chain rails, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's say self custody and whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But those that want just to have the ETF exposure fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, let them have it, let them cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: So vast majority of those big players are already in talks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can tell you like every week, I have a call with a new institution trying to understand where they are in the cycle.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if they have a specific project, they want to implement
[SPEAKER_00]: and they are working on it, or they right now want to explore what's possible, what's in the let's say, why the spectrum of solutions that we could offer, but there is one caveat.
[SPEAKER_00]: In crypto, people have
[SPEAKER_00]: ADHD, you're saying English, I believe, like they do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, the attention spans and they do expect things to happen overnight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they expect if a product works, let's make a ten X within a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's make ten X leverage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's make
[SPEAKER_00]: distribution like globally immediately and let's go and don't care about legal, don't care about the second order effects of it during whatsoever and this is absolute, you know, the case with the big boys with the big institutions, they take it step by step to see if nothing is going to break in the process and then they can encourage and
[SPEAKER_00]: showcase to the management.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, this is actually working.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should dedicate like additional budget, you should dedicate additional like team to make it grow and expand as you progress.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the beautiful part is, I believe in the next two, three years, we are going to see a lot of innovation and breakthroughs happening in the online environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: because I see some of those bigger projects being starting to be implemented right now, and the effects of them are going to be again, and eight months, twenty months, thirty months, and whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess my question there is, do you think it's going to come on Ethereum or Solana?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you guys work with both, and Ethereum is really the backbone of a lot of this institutional level of D-Fi, but Solana is where a lot of the consumer adoption and crypto traders went.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do you kind of see that breakdown?
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if people come, ask your council and your advice on building a solution and you say, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, Solana's gonna be the right way to push you for this kind of application, Ethereum will be the right way for this kind.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, giving me a hot potato, let me first like turn to table, this will do like guys better, Ethereum, Solana.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess for me, I like them both, you know, kind of like for different reasons, I guess, like, I like, you know, some applications, some of the defy applications, using them on Ethereum, but I don't really go out and do much of the,
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, the L-tos that much, but then for meme coins, of course, it's all on Solana.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you got to have a Solana wallet and Phantom.
[SPEAKER_02]: What about you, Brendan?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was going to agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like them both for different reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that if you want
[SPEAKER_01]: the security and the legacy, then you have to go with Ethereum.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has been the household name a little bit stronger, more secure, I think than Solana.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where you have your reputation, but you're going to be sacrificing scalability.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Bryce is right, when you start getting involved with some of these more like fine
[SPEAKER_01]: meme coins even things like deep in that's where Solana starts to dominate and they also have more scalability so I kind of view them as great at different areas and I think that's why we see projects kind of split.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now the unique thing is that up until recently I've noticed that Ethereum dominated the tokenization in RWA space but now we are starting to see that Solana is
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if taking some market shares the right word, but it's getting involved and really stepping its feet.
[SPEAKER_01]: into that industry where previously, you know, I'd say a year ago, didn't have a giant presence and now it's been building that up over the maybe last twelve to eighteen months or so.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when people come to me, I say, you know, what's your approach?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you like a very serious methodical, secure person?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, then maybe look at Ethereum.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you like being a little bit more risk on, you like new tech, you like scalability, like some of these
[SPEAKER_01]: maybe more volatile ideas than I think go with Solana.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's not like once horrible, once amazing, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see them being at both significant players in the same way that if you look at most modern companies, there is a competitor to everything, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: For a Walmart, there's Target.
[SPEAKER_01]: For, you look at the auto industry and there's a million different players.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's Home Depot and then there's Lowe's.
[SPEAKER_01]: Microsoft and then there's Apple.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of view it the same as Ethereum and Salana.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like Ethereum is maybe more like Gucci and Salana is Walmart.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the comparison.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what do you think we're seeing?
[SPEAKER_02]: I like Brendan set up there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, those are maybe I'm going to steal it.
[SPEAKER_00]: YouTube is Gucci and Selena and Walmart.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, that's a good one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so here's my, my, the reason I asked you that question is because you're going to realize probably three years ago or two years ago, even you would probably answer differently, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And Solana has shown a pretty at least I would answer differently in a sense that I would three years ago, I would say, you know, because of the FTA's connotation and some of the, let's say, uptime hiccups of Solana.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has a lot of excellent value proposition to the end user.
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to UX, when it comes to speed, when it comes to gaskos, those things you cannot deny, like they are present.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they also have very good defining infrastructure.
[SPEAKER_00]: In a sense, like there's Camino, there's drift, there's Jupiter.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are many other protocols out there that are very well structured.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are often a good yield and good strategies out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But two years ago, still those kind of
[SPEAKER_00]: FDX and uptem hiccups would be also part of the evaluation of Solana let's call it and now because there hasn't there's been a pretty long period right now with Solana not having any issue with the hiccup
[SPEAKER_00]: FTX situation is being resolved.
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, I don't follow it that well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think even people who had money over there ended up getting more or like the asset that FTX hold it are more than the payouts that they have to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not an expert over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it ended up not as bad as people assumed in the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also Solana has shown a huge huge
[SPEAKER_00]: Consistency, when it comes to building.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, throughout even those lower times, they kept on building, they kept on encouraging new people, they kept on shipping good conferences.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, Solana breakpoint is also known for being very well organized and it also shows that you can attract the regular people that do care about those kind of aspects.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nowadays, I would say they are being compared more and more, not like that Ethereum is detain and so on and it's like one of the competitors, they are chosen for different reasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for institutions, specifically, they in general prefer Ethereum, at least that's my experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: because it's been bulletproof and those kind of huge institutions like a lot years of resilience, years of working without any hiccups.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a reason a financial let's say railway in traditional finance hasn't been updated much over the past decades because if something works and it doesn't break, let's keep it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the kind of mindset on a traditional final institutions.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's also the reason before crypto we had a fintechs that were popping out and they were disrupting a lot of those big banks and big players.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we have let's call them crypto fintechs that are utilizing that kind of relay way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Having said that, they look at Solana as the potential go-to-market distribution ground, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they also acknowledge Solana has its momentum.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got a lot, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, a contrary aspect, these are the name coins.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've also heard some of the institutions don't like that the general public associates Solana with name coins.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then next to it, you would have a very serious, traditional product that is tokenized.
[SPEAKER_00]: which from the portfolio diversification perspective actually does make sense, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can create like interesting constructs like, let's call it, three percent to casino called the meme coins and ninety percent is something reasonable and seven percent is some interesting strategies.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, you know, giving an example over here, but having those assets and availability on the chain like from the logical perspective makes sense, but from the PR and branding perspective, it's not necessarily what those
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like, um, the early days of the internet, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, people were like, oh, I'm never going to put my prestigious, uh, you know, Louis Vuitton dot com on the internet because somebody could type in the same URL, uh, you know, Walmart dot com for instance.
[SPEAKER_02]: or something really bad, or something that's objectionable by many people's taste, but it's all on the same internet.
[SPEAKER_02]: And kind of in the same way, it's like you could go and you could find high quality assets on Ethereum or Solana, but you could also find low quality assets there.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's because it's a free market, it's because it's kind of a permissionless technology, and it's pretty much what you would expect.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anywhere where the technology is also being used for good, it's going to be used for other things.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I kind of want to zoom the conversation in to just like the everyday user, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is crypto one on one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of the people who are watching are just maybe the everyday investor or the retail trader or whatever, how can they kind of, in your opinion, best.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess you could call it capitalized on this opportunity, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're kind of at a cool inflection point in the market where there's a lot of upside opportunity and being a part of an industry that is growing from, you know, three trillion dollars to potentially tens of, tens of drillians or hundreds of drillians of dollars.
[SPEAKER_02]: How does the everyday investor kind of get some upside here?
[SPEAKER_00]: A trillion dollar question is it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say the easiest way to interact in the beginning is via yield brewing stablecoins because this is very simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have dollar, let's call it regular dollar.
[SPEAKER_00]: You all run into USDC, USDT, PY, USDT by PayPal or any other stablecoin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you look for yield strategies that
[SPEAKER_00]: Most simple one, I would probably say is providing liquidity on AvA or other robust lending market because this is very simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just click Lent and that's done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you could look into some interesting products such as Etina, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, just mint USD and then stake it for SUSD.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is very simple for regular person.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then if you want to
[SPEAKER_00]: and brace the RWA revolution, I would say A-Crit, so that tokenized private credit fund is very, very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is one of the reasons we went to launch on Solana, so Rect on launch on Solana in May, and we enable RWA revolution over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are the Oracle providing A-Crit and S-A-Crit, which are the tokenized private credit funds.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're saying, Incrid, like ACRED is the name of the token, Acred.
[SPEAKER_02]: There we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so he's got it pulled up here for those watching.
[SPEAKER_02]: Acred ACRED and then sacred, S-A-C-R-E-D.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me break it down.
[SPEAKER_00]: For anyone who is willing to read it later and is listening right now, you can go to a blog that read some of the finals and go to one of the most recent blog posts about S. A. Crette.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to summarize the story over here, it's a pretty long article going into the private credit and how it works in the under the hood.
[SPEAKER_00]: But TLDR is
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got Apollo who is like a huge traditional finance player with right now in the article we write a five hundred billion dollars which is actually inaccurate because later we go to the latest data and right now there are at seven hundred fifty billion dollars in asset management so you can see how quickly they scale as the organization.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they have a traditional diversified credit fund called ADCF, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is without crypto.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like some regular stuff they do every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in a simplistic way, what private credit is is lending and borrowing between people who cannot do that in the banking infrastructure.
[SPEAKER_00]: In simplistic words, you can think of a guy that wants to build a railway between free factories in, let's call it, Arizona.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Bang wouldn't give him the credit to do so.
[SPEAKER_00]: So such a person would go to Apollo and Apollo would facilitate such a boroughland with some of the people who want to lend the money and get higher yield than they would do going into the tables or any other financial product.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is like the traditional finance work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now what's secretized that is they tokenize that fund.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they tokenize
[SPEAKER_00]: diversified credit fund by Apollo and you get a credit which is this Apollo diversified credit security fund which is the tokenized version of that fund so that people who have USDC and actual stablecoins can have exposure to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this fund historically has been giving somewhat between five to eleven percent in terms of the yield because private credit depends on what kind of credit deals are made under the hood, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are the rates between those who borrowland and how many of the defaults you have?
[SPEAKER_00]: So how many people are not able to pay back the loan and the interest that they are supposed to to the landers, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And this
[SPEAKER_00]: Acret is launched already on Polygon Solana, Ethereum, and some other blockchains.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the issue is Acret is a security.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as a security, it cannot be transferred between wallets from one word to the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you cannot use it in DFI, why?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in order to use something as a collateral in DFI, it has to be
[SPEAKER_00]: qualified for being liquidated.
[SPEAKER_00]: And liquidation is nothing else than closing a position, taking an asset from an owner and selling on the market an example.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that you cannot do with a security.
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore,
[SPEAKER_00]: At least yet, yeah, we were talking about, you know, nowadays.
[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, security has created a construct called S.A.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cret, which is a vault.
[SPEAKER_00]: A very simple vault with a mechanism that you put in a Cret.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you get S.A.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cret.
[SPEAKER_00]: that you can already use in D-Fi.
[SPEAKER_00]: So S-A-Cread can be put as collateral, in example, into a more-fo-drift Camino.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of those are secured by Redstone price feeds, as I was explaining before, we deliver the current price of A-Cread on-chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then on those markets, so I'm going to scroll down a little bit because I think this is a pretty good representation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have Acrid on Solana.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can deposit this Acrid on Solana to get SA credit from SA credit vault.
[SPEAKER_00]: This S.A.
[SPEAKER_00]: credit is being brought to drift as collateral.
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine it's one million dollar or worth of S.A.
[SPEAKER_00]: credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And imagine there is, let's call it, seventy percent liquidation threshold.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you to be on the safe side, you borrow fifty percent.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you would borrow fifty, sorry, five hundred thousand USDC, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then with this five hundred thousand years DC, you would go to securitize again, get a credit, go to as a credit vault, mint as a credit, and then get again the loop over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can repeat that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's call it five six times to increase your exposure to the as a credit as the product.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the risks that you are taking over here, one is the platform risk, naturally.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if drift is getting hacked or security test isn't, you know, problem or hiccup, that's the risk that you are taking.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the second one is that a-crete, as the tokenized funds might have, you know, like, downfall.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you go on a redstone platform, so I'm going to share the screen again for a-crete, specifically on our website.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're going to notice quickly that in general, it goes upwards, like as the font, but there are moments where it's stagnant between the days, so nothing changes, or sometimes it's actually going down, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like slightly, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So if there are some of the loans within the
[SPEAKER_00]: accurate product going default then it's going down right that's the reason you shouldn't go crazy with the leverage that you're taking over there but technically it's a pretty secure product because it's delivered by Apollo which is a huge trust and it's you know a qualified institution to offer such a product and with this looping in the example that they shared with with the listeners you can transfer the five to eleven percent yield to
[SPEAKER_00]: some will be between twelve to even seventeen percent.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're still having exposure to each other's final product, but with the loop that gives you just better rate at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: And with this loop, I mean, does it every time you loop, does it like lever up and compound a bunch of risk or is it something that, you know, is not necessarily compounding risk?
[SPEAKER_00]: It depends how you look at that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not compounding the platform risk because you're still using the same platform, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're accepting still the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are increasing the risk of your loss when things go south within the Acrit product.
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine Acrit.
[SPEAKER_00]: For simplicity, imagine a credit is constructed via a thousand loans and all of them would be in the railway industry in the US or even in Arizona, excellent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you have an earthquake in Arizona.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be a killer for the project.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a credit expert risks, you know, like anything, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but here you accept that it's a polo that is you trust a polo that they constructed the product in that way, that you are not going to have cascading defaults, and you know the domain effect, because this is the job of a polo.
[SPEAKER_00]: A polo would never allow for one thousand loans to be on railway on Arizona.
[SPEAKER_00]: They diversify it a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: One is in the aircraft industry, one is in the railway, and another one is in the ships that's called industry and so on and so forth, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is a very diversified portfolio.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if one of them is going to default, it's not going to take another one down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there won't be those, the systemic risk, like everybody remembers watching the big short were the CDOs, the CDOs squared and one falls and the whole thing is falling because they're all the same loans in a sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it sounds like this, this is a whole new world, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole new world of bringing securities on chain and it's just the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not the end form of where this is all kind of going.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the very, very
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, nascent form of what this all looks like.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you mentioned earlier, you know, Larry Fink, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Founder CEO of BlackRock has come out and said like tokenization is the next step.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the next future here for where finance is going.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to need platforms like Redstone.
[SPEAKER_02]: to secure the data and to connect everything like we said.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Marcine, we really appreciate you coming on kind of painting us this picture of really, yeah, like the crypto revolution that we're having here in D-Fi.
[SPEAKER_02]: And where can people kind of stay in touch with your journey?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you mostly on Discord?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you mostly on X?
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll put that in the show notes for listeners.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm most active on X, you know, previously tweeter.
[SPEAKER_00]: My handle is Marcin Redstone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So very much associated with the brunt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very proud of what we are building at Redstone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it also actually I was changing my handle a couple of months back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the previous show, I might have still had Marcin Pass, which is related to my surname, but there was like one free in the end and it was hard to remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, okay, I need to change it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my question was to myself, is if I take Marcin Redstone, am I confident I am going to keep it for the next couple of years?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you shouldn't change your handle too often, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: This also shows like the commitment to what we are building at Redstone.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are very much long-term builders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another aspect that is showcasing where serious is we are very public people in a sense that we are not frogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are not anons.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are none of those pretty weird concepts out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can Google as you can see our link things you can see what we are doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: In a sense that we are even if things go south because there is a way that we are going to make a mistake.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're going to be some liquidations because of our infrastructure whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But still, we are going to be taking responsibility what's happening out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if anyone wants to follow our path, I recommend following Mars and Redstone and Redstone underscore DeFi.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are the two major platforms out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will do the shameless plug at the end because this is a product I'm extremely proud of, which is Redstone, Redstone Bolt.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's de-fastest Oracle on the market right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to repeat it de-fastest Oracle on the market.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason I'm repeating it is because we deliver price feed to MegaEef specifically on TestNet every two point four milliseconds.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to give you perspective, one second has thousand milliseconds.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we update more frequent than four hundred updates a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when they're talking about it, we've already sent thousands of updates on chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason we do so is this is the infrastructure that is going to be ready to allow the most efficient trading bots and those kind of algorithms that are present already in traditional finance.
[SPEAKER_00]: You probably know the book Flash Boys.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is exactly what we are doing on chain right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are fighting for every millisecond or soon even every nanosecond, which is below one millisecond, which for regular human brain is impossible to comprehend.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is a kind of efficiency that we are striving for.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to give you an attempt of visualization, there is a great platform by Enveo.
[SPEAKER_00]: that try to visualize the speed of redstone bolts.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called OracleWords.xYZ.
[SPEAKER_00]: And over here you can see like every let's call it half a second.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got hundreds or dozens of those dots like appearing on the screen, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see how the if price is moving.
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually those are like, you know, small changes updated very frequently, but for the bots and high volume, it does matter and it does make the difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, yeah, just pulled that up right now and pretty interesting looking chart there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you guys have got a lot of amazing things going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're excited for you guys and we'll have you back on again soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys are developing a lightning speed.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm sure six months down the line or whatever, there's gonna be a lot new stuff to talk about, but until then, we really appreciate you coming on and everybody at home watching and listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: We appreciate your guys' time coming back same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same place next week.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love some more great guests.
[SPEAKER_02]: For ya.
[SPEAKER_02]: Take care.