[SPEAKER_03]: For those of you who think pornography's not a big deal, it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: It hurts your heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can say it doesn't end a million times.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know I said it, but it hurts your heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: It kills your intimacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that was something that we chose to step into this process, knowing that I knew it was going to be really challenging.
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the living-hole-hearted podcast where we help you lead with integrity at home and work and in the community.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Tara Massen, a licensed marriage and family therapist and executive coach.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Jeff Matson, an executive coach and organizational development professional.
[SPEAKER_04]: Together, we bring you two decades of experience and leader development and trauma informed therapy.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're so excited to do our here as we help you become the leader you would follow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back to the Living Well Heart of podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: When we talk about shrinking the integrity gap between what we preach and how we actually live, it's vital.
[SPEAKER_04]: This issue is vital.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's at the center of all of our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we know that none of us does this perfectly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're so grateful for Christ forgiveness and his redemptive work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And grace means that we can't earn God's love or favor.
[SPEAKER_00]: what Christ did on the cross sealed the deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's finished and so thankful that it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and however we know that many of us were just afraid and still struggle with trusting God with all of our stories.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even though we love God and we profess that we want to give them our heart, our mind, our body, and our soul, we really just do struggle trusting Him with our humanity, the pain of our stories and especially our sexuality.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we have two brave guests, special people with us today, as they want to tell us more and share with us the journey of their own sexual wholeness.
[SPEAKER_04]: They are in process and they're willing to let us in to their real journey together.
[SPEAKER_04]: So welcome, Josh and Jalen Harrow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're so glad to have you guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let's start, let's start with the the fun part of your story when you guys first met and help us understand how you felt love and a little bit of the background.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, it's a huge lot so much better than me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, I love our story because it's one because it's our story, but two because it's just fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we met Collie.
[SPEAKER_02]: We met in fifth grade.
[SPEAKER_02]: So way back, fifth grade church choir was our first first interaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all through middle school, we ran in the same friend group.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I actually, and everyone knows this, I had a big crush on her in middle school.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I told her
[SPEAKER_02]: and I just want you to all feel my pain because for response when I said that I liked her was you're a really good friend and I like your friend so-and-so.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if that gives you an idea, not all stories start off with both people being in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I brought it up and I was very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we went through, we went through all of middle school and high school running the same friend groups actually in high school.
[SPEAKER_02]: We went on frequent double date, but we were not together.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was with a friend of mine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was dating someone else, but we would go on these double dates and we would always joke about how alike she and I were and we would poke fun at it and be like, oh, ha ha, Josh and Jason should be on this date together because they're so alike.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and just through, you know, obviously a lot of times the relationship should have in high school don't stick in coming near the end of high school.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had both come out of relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, we were just, we felt so excited to just be able to hang out as friends because, you know, you don't hang out with your friends, girlfriend by yourself for obvious reasons right here when you're in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we just started spending time together as friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had told her actually that, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, after this long relationship I had been and ended and she was out of a long relationship to when we were in that kind of friend building stage and getting to another more one-on-one, I had mentioned in a conversation that I didn't want to date again until I was sure the person I was going to start dating was going to be who I would marry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this was, I mean, I'm a senior in high school at this point, but I, I early on knew how important it was for me how much I wanted to be married and to start a family.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I had made that comment and then
[SPEAKER_02]: probably within a week or two, I find myself, you know, falling head over heels for this girl that I've known for years and freaking out going, oh my gosh, I just hold her the next personality I want to bear.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, and much fit my surprise, but not to my surprise, she knew that that was how I felt and we started dating that summer after her senior year of high school.
[SPEAKER_02]: She went away to college, down in California.
[SPEAKER_02]: I started going to nursing school in Portland and it was the
[SPEAKER_02]: Every day, you know, back when Skype was the big thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every day, we were on Skype for, you know, two or three hours a night.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were texting all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were calling each other and we got probably part of the first semester.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we were like, this has got a, one of us has to move.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I got to go down the California.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to come up here because we just, this is, we both felt so sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we had talked about marriage early on in the months of our relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the fact we've been friends for so many years
[SPEAKER_02]: we didn't have to like establish a friendship first we had already done that and so we both knew what we wanted and it was um you know she ended up graciously and lovingly moving back up to Portland um and and you know we our relationship got more serious from there and we got married in two thousand fourteen we were both just barely twenty
[SPEAKER_02]: or sorry, do thousand twelve, one of my saying, do you know, the important thing we had to kid, do thousand twelve, we got married.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we were both newly twenty.
[SPEAKER_02]: There were, we had lots of comments from people about what that would look like, but it's been, you know, we've been, we're celebrating our eighth anniversary this year.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just super grateful for the journey that we've been on.
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys will hear more about this, but our story has not been a smooth sail perfect ride.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been a lot of things, but it's been filled with a lot of joy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's been filled with a lot of, I think, just deep connection that she's my best friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's the one that I get to ride all the ups and downs with.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I don't know if she wants to add anything, but that's my little take on our story.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nice job, Josh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nice job, Jaylid.
[SPEAKER_04]: And tell us a little bit about the stage of life you guys are in now.
[SPEAKER_04]: You've been married eight years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we have two boys.
[SPEAKER_03]: God bless me with boys.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we have a five in three year old and they're a handful and a half given me a taste of my own medicine as my mom says.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is just, it is such a fun time being a parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also the hardest thing I've ever done.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really helped Josh and I, we really have learned, I think the meaning of what God intends marriage to be through the challenge of children.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's amazing just how he's used this time to reveal things to us that we needed to work on.
[SPEAKER_03]: all through these kids that you think you're gonna teach them how to grow up.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you don't do life and then teaching you more about life than you teach them.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great, you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love what you're sharing already.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I would like to enter a little bit into some of the pain points.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell us a little bit more about how when you knew something was up in your marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: You alluded to it a little bit here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's begin with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll start just since I know I probably, you knew about it all along, I think, but I just, we were, you know, we were going through a typical marriage stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got married in twenty twelve, like just said in twenty fourteen, we had our first kid land in and he's five now and
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, I was just kind of convinced this is how life goes, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you get tired, you grow apart.
[SPEAKER_03]: And pregnancy does things to your very drillationship, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And we just were kind of doing our best with what we could.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were babies when we got married.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't realize how much of babies we actually were.
[SPEAKER_03]: First, not married because we were twenty.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we had a lot of growing up to do still that I didn't realize we did.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I started to notice.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, twenty eighteen was when we kind of faced our issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I was noticing a twenty seventeen that Josh was depressed a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he was very down on himself.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was changing careers almost every year.
[SPEAKER_03]: He just was, he was one person with other people and one person with me at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he was in a guard place.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember just being the wife that wanted to help.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted, I so badly wanted to help him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wanted to help him get out of the stunt because I knew this wasn't who he was.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this wasn't the guy that I married.
[SPEAKER_03]: just thinking, you know, what can I do to help?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I sat out, Tara.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, Tara, please help me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need help with this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I came to her looking to help Josh with his depression.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember Tara, you mentioned something to me about PTSD.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we went home and Josh and I talked about PTSD.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that therapy session, although it's coming in there, very codependent and very much like not knowing all that I was kind of unearthing at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Josh had been in therapy at that point for a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had been on medication for depression.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just wasn't seeing anything change, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I couldn't necessarily feel that anything was happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I thought taking me out of it in my own hands would be the best avenue.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I just suggested maybe if we go this other route.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think about maybe talking to a different counselor about PTSD and just like maybe I'll try that and what kind of happened for you, Josh, I'll let you take it from here.
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you notice at that point?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I just said, I mean, I have been at that point in twenty seventeen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have been seeking out counseling and therapy for probably a year or two year and a half already.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was on, you know, high doses of medication for anxiety and another one for depression and never really was getting
[SPEAKER_02]: clarity on what was going on, and never really understood what was going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't until Jay said, hey, why don't you want you looking to this person that Tara recommended?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I went and I don't know what, I don't know what came over me in that first session.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it was honestly just God's goodness and giving me the courage to just be brave and open up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that first, that first session was really where I started to discover that there was
[SPEAKER_02]: There was more going on inside of me than I was than I had been willing to let people into.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, a lot of that had to do with my own story, my own history.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I
[SPEAKER_02]: I had it for a long time just to kind of give like a yes abroad abroad for a long time before marriage and Jalen knew this and and we it was an open dialogue but but for a marriage to struggle for a long time with a really severe pornography addiction that had really.
[SPEAKER_02]: really it's saved its way into my life and become a really big crutch for me and that started back in middle school and you know at this point we're now in our twenties and married and had been this on again off again thing where there were there were seasons where it would have been flow and and I remember after she had land in that I guess that vehicle for my addiction had really subsided but I hadn't really addressed
[SPEAKER_02]: The root of why it was that I was dealing with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she had realized that my depression in anxiety was just getting worse and worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was in that first session that I had with my own therapist on my own, that I just poured out my story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I grown up in the church.
[SPEAKER_02]: I grew up being very open about my, with leaders and with mentors about my struggle with pornography and very open with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there was a part of my story that I had never really opened up about to anyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, not to jailing, not to, um, not to a counselor, even though I'd seen multiple.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the part of my story that I was really scared to share and then I think was the root of a lot of the things I knew was that I was really struggling with my own sexuality.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, um, you know, being a
[SPEAKER_02]: a man growing up in the Christian church where that the topic of sexuality is already so so tabooed most of the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then to take it one step further and say, I'm actually really wrestling with my sexual identity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm struggling with same sex attraction and I don't know where to go with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a safe person to go to with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that the revealing of that and me sharing that in therapy and then subsequently sharing that with Jalen shortly after really opened up
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a huge wound that I had, um, that at the core of it was, was an own struggle with my own identity that I had been hiding since I was a kid.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my earliest memories of struggling with that go back to when I was in late elementary school, early middle school, and here I am, you know, twenty six years old, and I've never told anyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it really, it did open up this wound that I had covered up for so long, whether it was through, you know, pornography is an outlet or it was, you know, utilizing just my own sense of humor to kind of mask up the things that I was dealing with.
[SPEAKER_02]: It kind of unearthed all that and it made this, it opened up this kind of raw exposed space that really catapulted, you know, the following weeks of months of our journey through that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so much there, both of you, thank you for being so real and honest.
[SPEAKER_04]: Jayland, a couple of things I heard from you was just, you sent something wasn't, I guess, right in your marriage and you sent from Josh, his depression and that things weren't getting better and so you were trying to have a posture of helping him.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Josh, that sense of anxiety and depression were just persistent in your life, but obviously on this side of your journey and all the processing you understand more of what was on earth, the holding of, and is it fair to say, hiding of this part of you, this struggle?
[SPEAKER_04]: They didn't know where to go and a totally validate that for especially for audience who's listening can be really hard in and out of the church, but particularly in the church and if you're serving with pornography addiction, things like the traction and just anything sexuality wise can be hard to find.
[SPEAKER_04]: Someone, so here you are, Josh, you're growing up in youth group, you're telling your mentors, your leaders, even we're talking to Jay Lane about your photography issues, but something turns there in that counseling office.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to start with you, Josh, in that moment, you know what?
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you think was that turning point to help you decide that it was time to face this part of your story that you had had in, since you were a little boy you said?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, I think there was, I remember a couple of distinct point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember one in in that session and just feeling like I'm just tired.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm tired of I'm tired of coming into these sessions being, you know, posing as being so authentic when in reality I'm hurting and I'm not letting anyone into it and here I am in front of someone who
[SPEAKER_02]: who is just simply here and invested in helping you move forward and helping me understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I can't be, if I can't be real with myself and you know, this person who's here to help me, then there's what hope is there for me being real in my marriage or being real in relationships with people moving.
[SPEAKER_02]: board.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think there was that moment of realization that I was just tired.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was tired of, you know, fighting a battle with without the weapons and just kind of letting this thing happen to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there was that moment in that session where I just let it all out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember I remember my therapist.
[SPEAKER_02]: just kind of like John the floor because this was our first session together and here I am just opening my entire you know I have been through probably fifty or sixty sessions with therapists before that and never shared this and here I am in my first one like I said I think honestly just like the conviction of the spirit my heart and saying like this is you need to take this step of healing that's the only reason that I did it and and so I did and so there was that turning point there but then I remember
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a few days later, I hadn't shared with Jalen about my struggle with sexual identity at that point yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I could tell like there was a day I remember it so vividly sitting on the couch in our living room.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just was, I just felt sick.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt this like weight on my chest.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt a pit in my stomach.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just, I was quiet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like clenched fist sitting there and I remember Jalen being at the dining room table and she's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: what's going oh yeah there there have been a situation that had happened that kind of she thought it was this was a response to something else and she said this seems like it like you're having a lot of a lot of anxiety over something that seemed pretty small and what she didn't know is that the anxiety was feeling was not related to this other situation but it was related to this this secret that I was holding in my heart and so I asked her to come over and we sat down and I remember just like tears in my eyes saying
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I know you know this part of my story and my struggles with pornography and and you've known that about us but what you don't know about my story is this and it was just this moment of I think it was that moment of transparency and honesty because up until that point I had done a pretty good job at keeping certain parts of my life in my heart pretty hidden from everyone and and there was as I started to move forward I started to realize that there was a theme and kind of a thread of
[SPEAKER_02]: low, just low level enough deception that it didn't feel like lying that I had been doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was that in that moment where I chose to open up about one of the scariest, I would argue, these scariest and hardest part of myself, opening that up to the person that I trusted the most and having to trust that she was going to be there on the other end.
[SPEAKER_02]: to receive that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I remember that being a news turning point and just in just stepping towards wholeness and transparency in our relationship that hadn't been there before.
[SPEAKER_04]: A enormous courage, Josh, and we're on right there with you as I'm imagining the choice you had to make.
[SPEAKER_04]: And just yeah, that I think many of us listening in those Jeff and I know those moments and just so sick, holding that and the years and years and years of that building for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the courage.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, to let her in.
[SPEAKER_04]: J. Lim before we move forward and talk more about disclosure and how to how to move through that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us about you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's a turning point for you in terms of you facing your story.
[SPEAKER_04]: You alluded to the fact that there's some things you've had to work on to here, not just Josh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Would you like to speak to those?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, certainly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a big I was very much in a victim mentality when I heard that stuff like I've been shut like this is happening in my life and It was it was a lot of survival mode But I immediately sat after You know guidance and honestly there wasn't much on this subject and there wasn't much for me as a wife of the same sex-attracted male in the church and
[SPEAKER_03]: I, the one thing I did hear though from listening to other betrayal stories was women who had owned their own stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, how have any stuff to own?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I was so into Nile about all of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, but I kept open and I think that was the really important part because over the last two years of journeying through this restoration process, I've really learned that I played just as much of a part in this as he did.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to some of you listening to this right now, if you're a wife or husband in nice same situation, or you've been betrayed,
[SPEAKER_03]: You might not feel like you are playing a part in this and that's okay, like be there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But just know that there's huge redemption on the other side of that, like God has healed my story in more ways than I could have even imagined and giving me a freedom of just like
[SPEAKER_03]: love and accepting and worthiness like he restored the worth that I always tried to find and then through my story and I actually realized through this process that I was sexually abused while I was growing up and it wasn't as bad I say this in quotes as bad as other people sexual abuse and I always used to write it off as that like oh I wasn't this
[SPEAKER_03]: But it was.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it took a little while for me to see what had happened in my childhood and in my story and how that had affected me growing up.
[SPEAKER_03]: to see the woman that God created me to be and how our marriage story and how Josh's, Josh's pain and my pain coming together and seeing God really, I mean, restored has been a word that we have sung on to in this process as a married couple because that's really what God has done here.
[SPEAKER_03]: He has taken what was broken and
[SPEAKER_03]: shattered and she has put it together with gold.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a, I don't know the specific Japanese term for it, but there's a process that the Japanese go through where they create our out of broken pieces using gold and they take the broken pieces and they put the gold in the middle of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it makes this beautiful work of art.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just, I envision that and I think about that when I think about our marriage because it's not perfect, but
[SPEAKER_03]: It's being pieced together with the love of Jesus and the restoration that is done in both of our lives individually and then when we come together, it makes this beautiful work of art because of what we walked through.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and before we move forward, I just want to speak back to that woman you were talking to or that man who's a spouse.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is not there yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Dale in your, your further down the road in your healing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it gives great hope and beauty for someone who feels betrayed in the relationship to say there is a day when you can actually.
[SPEAKER_04]: be grateful if you can lean into the healing journey and yet there's a lot of people listening that aren't there yet and that's okay I love that you said that just it's okay you're right where you are so yeah this is years down the road you guys are in process and working and so a few more questions on this and then we're going to wrap up this part one and move into part two
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you guys it's it's beautiful to hear the words he chosen to share the story and I just so encouraged by I know a lot of people will be I love the word they use by Jalen by sex I stayed open
[SPEAKER_00]: in that describes the process and that openness is not easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because initially you felt shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I want to ask you to stay in that moment of that disclosure on the couch and Josh, your fists were tight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jay, Jay, then thought you were reacting overreacting to something else that was seem more minor, but
[SPEAKER_00]: There you were, there you shared what you shared with her.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how did you feel Josh from sharing and disclosing this and this disclosure process with Jay Glenn in that moment and then Jay Glenn?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you just forgot how I'm initially you felt about it and how it's worked out in the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to hear just a little bit about that from Josh in that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a scary moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was arguably, there's, I wish I could say, I guess let's start with, I wish I could say that the disclosure all came in one big way, even it was a single moment and there was.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, everything's on the table now everything's here and it was like that first moment on the couch where I shared my struggle with her and I shared what have been going on my heart There was a huge sense of relief.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember in that moment because I was like finally I've shared with the most important person in my life You know the most important human being in my life knows this deepest part of me that I've hated for so long.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I remember there being a huge sense of relief
[SPEAKER_02]: I think partially because I had shared it, but I think also partially because of how she chose to receive it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, you know, she had lots of questions and the questions only started there.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, you know, months and months of lots of conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just remember there, I remember there just being a piece of, okay, this is this was the right next step and feeling like, okay, she's she's staying and maybe we can continue taking steps, maybe we can continue moving forward in that and and, you know, like I said, if I could go back again and disclose everything at once, I, you know, I don't think in that moment I was ready to, so it's probably good that I didn't, but
[SPEAKER_02]: There were other parts of my story.
[SPEAKER_02]: There were other parts of my addiction from, you know, before our relationship and early in our relationship that I had never shared with her and I remember that appointment where we sat down and I had Terry, you had asked me to prepare, you know, what's called like a full disclosure where you're sharing everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing's off the table.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's the full deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I remember sitting down
[SPEAKER_02]: And typing out this disclosure that I kind of wrote essentially like a letter of just everything of all the things that had happened before relationship within our relationship with in our marriage.
[SPEAKER_02]: All leading up to that moment in time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was a.
[SPEAKER_02]: looking back on it a freeing process but in the moment it very gut-wrenching painful process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just facing my own reality and facing my own choices that I think because they have been kept to me they didn't feel real because well if I only know about them then
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, then it's not it's not really important.
[SPEAKER_02]: No one knows and so it doesn't really matter, but sitting down and writing it knowing that I was about to share it with the woman who I had made vows to and promised to love and guard her heart and knowing that I had I had broken some of those vows in my choices.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that that process of and then going through and actually reading through that with her as we sat in the office with you Terran and I remember just
[SPEAKER_02]: There was the the weight being lifted off because I knew everything was finally on the table, but that I remember also looking at her and there was this new heaviness because what I had removed for myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: She now had this entire new story and narrative that had happened behind the scenes that she didn't know about, that she was now happy.
[SPEAKER_02]: having to absorb or not having to but choosing to graciously choosing to absorb and say okay I'm you know in listening and then I just remember watching her response to that and just seeing the heartache and seeing just the pain and and her eyes and I mean even start to make me tear up just thinking about it not because
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sad now, but because I remember just the pain and it was hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think back to my gosh, the fact that she sat through that and the fact that she's stayed through it all is just a testament to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her gracious heart and God's work in our marriage, but it was a hard, hard moment in our relationship for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys, you're showing commitment in this and then disclosure, it's normal and that the initial disclosure is not full and complete and you submit into a process.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a healthy process of taking time.
[SPEAKER_00]: preparing in advance as the one that's to disclosing and and realizing that Jeff was just called to hear your voice described how you even now recognize the land and the choice that she made to stay in this and she didn't have to make that choice and it's a beautiful story.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys are sharing such authenticity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to validate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Jalen, as with the wife, are you willing to maybe put words to some of that pain or what that was like for you to choose to listen to that full disclosure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because that is part of the option.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just want to make sure people understand that that only happens really with couples who are wanting to move forward and try for restoration.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that is a must.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a starting point to lay a
[SPEAKER_04]: kind of come to ground zero, basically, to say, here's what we're dealing with, here's the loss.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Jalen, walk us through that for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so, um, like Ter said, I, when he first kind of told me what was going on, I really had a choice in that moment, like I had a choice to walk away.
[SPEAKER_03]: And
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I really felt like because he had chosen to share those things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew that there was this person inside there that I needed to get this chance because he was willing to do the work.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I obviously didn't know that not everything had been said yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so every time I mean when he told me about the pornography when we were dating,
[SPEAKER_03]: Every time something was disclosed, it hurt a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for those of you who think pornography is not a big deal, it hurts your heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can say it doesn't in a million times.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know I said it, but it hurts your heart.
[SPEAKER_03]: It kills your intimacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that was something that we chose to step into this process, knowing that I knew it was going to be really challenging.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it felt honestly like my whole first year of going through therapy felt like I was wearing this weighted backpack of just like stuff that I was carrying.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I felt like I've been shot.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had all the questions ruling in my mind and I just couldn't get them out of my head.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was really thankful for good friends in that season that just let me took my kids so I could just cry and just were there in such strong community.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thankful for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But as I'm sitting there in that, you know, there'll be room in that moment and just hearing him say all of these things that I never even knew about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Chester is fully broken there, fully broken.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't really know how to feel at that point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just like, wow, like, I don't know what to believe anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then shortly after that, I said the words that I never thought I would be saying to your head, always said this was an option on the table, but we talked about polygraph testing and I did decide that I wanted that polygraph test.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know it would bring me such comfort.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I never imagined that I would ask my husband that ever in my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there had been so over the time where he first told me on the couch to
[SPEAKER_03]: his last sober date, which were actually celebrating this month, praise the Lord.
[SPEAKER_03]: There were multiple times in there where there were relapses and there were confessions that he had made, you know, where he was still very much in his addiction and wrestling with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as a wife, I was just taking everything day by day, choice by choice, and wanting to protect him in my own heart, but also
[SPEAKER_03]: just listening to God and listening to like, God, are you really going to restore this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you really going to restore his heart?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I want to make sure this is
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not getting to hurt in this either.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that was for me, it was very much unknown.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I didn't see the finite feature with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted it to work out, but I knew there was a, there was a long way to go before we were in any place of like we're good and we're doing this, but yeah, that was really challenging as a wife to just sit there and
[SPEAKER_03]: realize the deception that it happened that had zero clue.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much, Josh and Jalen.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is only part one.
[SPEAKER_04]: We want you to come back to part two as we unpack even more of how to Josh and Jalen get from that point to where they are today when they were sharing earlier about the joy in their marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, couple things that I heard both of you sharing that I just want to make sure it's clear to our listeners.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, one of the things we do recommend in sex addiction recovery and sexual patrol recovery is a polygraph when there is a need for some sort of accountability for someone.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not meant to be a punishment, but it always is the spouse's choice.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what it does for the person who's disclosing is it just gives them a sense of accountability.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's freedom in it, actually.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a loving thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not meant to be used in a court of law.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's meant to be in the process of you're going to have this accountability of this polygraph.
[SPEAKER_04]: And here's your chance to do full disclosure.
[SPEAKER_04]: And because oftentimes there is trauma.
[SPEAKER_04]: and disassociation and and we're blocking out for so many years things that we feel shame about.
[SPEAKER_04]: We don't remember at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it does need to be a process and it needs to be done well as Jeff was saying earlier.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so what I don't want is people listening to this and to go home and to do a full disclosure because it's like a bomb going off at like you said jail and you felt shocked so you could do harm.
[SPEAKER_04]: But maybe there's somebody that you can trust that you can maybe start this process with.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it's time to see a counselor.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it's time to meet with your mentor and tell them the full story.
[SPEAKER_04]: But whatever it is that you're feeling as you're listening to the story, we're trusting that there is someone in your life that you can connect with.
[SPEAKER_04]: that you don't have to hide anymore.
[SPEAKER_04]: And as a wife or a husband who's wondering about things, to listen to that, to trust that discernment in you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And living a hearted, we're available.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've got resources and recommendations of people that specialize here if we can't help you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, did you know that we're not just podcasters, one of the best ways to connect with Tara and I and our whole team at Living All Hard It is our website, LivingAllHardIt.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: There you're going to find the books that we've written, our e-courses, executive coaching, organizational development, and professional counseling services.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one of our favorite things that we're up to these days are whole-hearted leadership cohorts, where we take groups of leaders for one-to-two year journeys together.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_04]: of our growing years helping her to be courageous and confident in a day such as this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thank you for caring about being the kind of person and leader that lives within integrity.