WEBVTT 00:02.312 --> 00:10.477 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we give you a strong biblical framework and lots of practical ideas on how to live intentionally as a father and a husband. 00:11.097 --> 00:21.083 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Brooke Moser and I'm Justin Whitmore Early and we're your host to guide you through the many roles and challenges that God is calling you to to live intentionally as a father. 00:21.543 --> 00:29.148 [SPEAKER_01]: We're following a visual framework that you can check out at intentionalfatherhood.org and it's gonna help you break down fatherhood into eight columns. 00:29.648 --> 00:39.072 [SPEAKER_00]: And in each one, we're going to talk about how God made you to be a father and what practical habits you can start trying today in order to live intentionally into that home. 00:39.472 --> 00:44.094 [SPEAKER_01]: So come along with us as we follow Jesus on this journey towards being more intentional fathers. 00:48.195 --> 00:50.436 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, welcome back to the intentional Fatherhood podcast. 00:50.456 --> 00:53.637 [SPEAKER_00]: We're here, Justin, I episode six. 00:54.757 --> 00:56.118 [SPEAKER_00]: We've made it this far, my friends. 00:56.658 --> 00:57.718 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got some coffee with us. 00:57.798 --> 00:58.638 [SPEAKER_00]: We did this round. 00:58.698 --> 01:00.099 [SPEAKER_00]: This round was a coffee round. 01:00.439 --> 01:03.700 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're listening and you're a person that enjoys coffee, pour yourself a cup. 01:04.060 --> 01:06.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Brooks said in espresso, I have an error press. 01:06.661 --> 01:07.561 [SPEAKER_00]: How is it? 01:07.601 --> 01:09.121 [SPEAKER_00]: Your, your error press setup. 01:09.481 --> 01:11.022 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's pretty impressive. 01:11.102 --> 01:11.922 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty legit now. 01:12.022 --> 01:12.382 [SPEAKER_00]: I do. 01:12.622 --> 01:15.303 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't do that extensive of a setup with travel. 01:15.803 --> 01:18.224 [SPEAKER_00]: I do have, though, and everybody needs to know this. 01:18.464 --> 01:19.824 [SPEAKER_00]: We are not sponsored by Stanley. 01:19.904 --> 01:25.185 [SPEAKER_00]: Although if Stanley wants to sponsor for whatever reason, we're up to it. 01:25.705 --> 01:28.986 [SPEAKER_00]: But Stanley has like their, you know, they have all their classic thermoses. 01:29.026 --> 01:30.127 [SPEAKER_00]: They make like a coffee one. 01:30.227 --> 01:31.527 [SPEAKER_00]: That's also a French press. 01:32.167 --> 01:33.949 [SPEAKER_00]: So I travel with that because it's a cup. 01:34.009 --> 01:34.589 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a French press. 01:34.609 --> 01:35.390 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like one thing. 01:35.410 --> 01:40.495 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I told you about the water, the travel water boiler. 01:40.996 --> 01:41.876 [SPEAKER_00]: It's chosen. 01:42.137 --> 01:43.898 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a little accordion thing. 01:44.219 --> 01:47.322 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're encouraging people to leave feedback. 01:47.362 --> 01:48.162 [SPEAKER_01]: Give us comments. 01:48.823 --> 01:54.209 [SPEAKER_01]: Send us questions and if one of those questions or comments wants to be, tell me about your error press setup. 01:54.249 --> 02:03.038 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to tell people the grams I'm using the way I'm steeping it, the kind of beans because I'll just, this is dialed in just to tease you that a little bit. 02:03.498 --> 02:04.379 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying like, 02:05.060 --> 02:07.921 [SPEAKER_00]: There's boiling water, things are upside down, then right side up. 02:08.461 --> 02:11.002 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a, I invert the error press to use it. 02:11.102 --> 02:11.803 [SPEAKER_01]: You invert it. 02:11.923 --> 02:13.483 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's, and you're going to have to ask about that. 02:13.503 --> 02:19.886 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but then also you also, you have the scale with the timer and the grams at the exact time this morning. 02:20.306 --> 02:24.708 [SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to use some boiling water for my coffee, and you're like, I'll be able to give that to you in thirty seconds. 02:24.928 --> 02:25.948 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know the way thirty seconds. 02:27.809 --> 02:30.531 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like steeping the ground, which is moist, sitting the ground. 02:30.891 --> 02:33.894 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, he's more of a coffee guy than I am, but I appreciate that. 02:34.414 --> 02:42.140 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're getting coffee, please, and Justin already mentioned it, but thank you to everybody who's rated and subscribed and also left a comment that is amazingly helpful. 02:42.720 --> 02:49.846 [SPEAKER_00]: And like we've said each time, if you haven't had a chance to rate or subscribe or leave a comment, all three of those, and if not, just one of those is very helpful. 02:50.286 --> 02:51.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you can watch all this on YouTube. 02:51.687 --> 02:55.110 [SPEAKER_00]: Links will be in the show notes, so you can watch this content if that's more helpful. 02:55.990 --> 03:03.897 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's really been really fun to have these conversations our last episode as we just kind of were reflecting afterwards. 03:04.757 --> 03:05.458 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a deep point. 03:05.538 --> 03:06.519 [SPEAKER_00]: It was heavy. 03:06.699 --> 03:10.382 [SPEAKER_00]: And we recognize, you know, not every episode is going to be that way. 03:10.422 --> 03:14.045 [SPEAKER_00]: We just want to give you guys heads up that that is not going to be every episode. 03:14.185 --> 03:16.326 [SPEAKER_00]: But we also just that life is heavy. 03:17.227 --> 03:26.356 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like so far the pacing and the topics and the content of our podcast specifically has been kind of what is true of life. 03:26.817 --> 03:40.170 [SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of fun moments, there's lots of like moments of intensity and learning and then there's hard moments and so we understand all that but today we actually want to really talk about what it looks like to be an intentional father from our perspective. 03:40.730 --> 03:52.315 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, you're going to hear mostly failure stories, but you're also going to hear some of the stuff that through our failures, we have hopefully, you know, like we all do, we stumble into figuring stuff out. 03:52.475 --> 03:53.936 [SPEAKER_00]: God has used them as used. 03:53.976 --> 03:54.596 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the stumbling. 03:54.616 --> 03:59.378 [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe Justin would be super helpful to set up this episode before you do. 03:59.818 --> 04:04.420 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's also important to let everybody know that we were trying to figure out the lyrics for memory. 04:07.321 --> 04:10.343 [SPEAKER_00]: to your body is a wonderland because I don't even know why it happens. 04:10.483 --> 04:13.645 [SPEAKER_00]: But then I was thinking, we haven't done an episode on marriage. 04:14.646 --> 04:19.749 [SPEAKER_00]: We went on this deep dive of like we need to do an episode on marriage and sex and marriage and a handful of things. 04:19.769 --> 04:20.530 [SPEAKER_00]: So don't worry. 04:20.630 --> 04:21.651 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about them. 04:21.671 --> 04:22.251 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get there. 04:22.271 --> 04:23.432 [SPEAKER_01]: That was like a little tease. 04:23.472 --> 04:25.193 [SPEAKER_01]: We realized that is an omission so far. 04:25.313 --> 04:25.853 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so far. 04:25.893 --> 04:26.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 04:26.454 --> 04:27.234 [SPEAKER_01]: Play with John Mayer. 04:27.915 --> 04:29.896 [SPEAKER_01]: John Mayer brought us the Miranda. 04:29.976 --> 04:32.318 [SPEAKER_00]: And ironically, you know, I don't listen to that song. 04:33.178 --> 04:41.085 [SPEAKER_00]: on regular rhythms ever, but just from like a long time ago, shows you how strong songs stick with you, because I knew a handful of phrases that just stuck with me. 04:41.266 --> 04:43.427 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, that's not important for us. 04:43.468 --> 04:46.530 [SPEAKER_01]: It was me walking around the apartment that made you remember the song. 04:47.894 --> 04:52.295 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely not, but that would have been nice if that was a case. 04:52.335 --> 04:52.896 [SPEAKER_00]: But no, that's not. 04:53.296 --> 04:54.336 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's get into today. 04:55.156 --> 04:55.636 [SPEAKER_00]: Take us there. 04:55.817 --> 04:56.217 [SPEAKER_01]: We got it. 04:56.297 --> 04:56.717 [SPEAKER_01]: All right. 04:56.737 --> 05:00.198 [SPEAKER_01]: So you remember that we're on the go to intentional fatherhood.org. 05:00.398 --> 05:02.639 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the diagram that we're sort of working from. 05:02.679 --> 05:05.620 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, we're in episode six here. 05:06.140 --> 05:08.561 [SPEAKER_01]: Episode five was on facing your past. 05:09.041 --> 05:10.341 [SPEAKER_01]: Looking into the darkness. 05:10.921 --> 05:12.962 [SPEAKER_01]: How God can redeem your story. 05:13.162 --> 05:18.543 [SPEAKER_01]: Knowing your story, like how we can redeem the brokenness and also how you are called to build on your blessings. 05:20.083 --> 05:23.644 [SPEAKER_01]: So now we're balancing that with, okay, if we know our past now, what do we do now? 05:24.244 --> 05:26.044 [SPEAKER_01]: And how do we create the future? 05:26.104 --> 05:28.385 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're really going to focus on what to do now. 05:28.585 --> 05:39.547 [SPEAKER_01]: And that idea is, what does it look like to set up rhythms, habits in the household that become a part of your family's spiritual formation? 05:40.608 --> 05:47.911 [SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of the core of what, you know, I'm not sure what everybody expected when they came to listen to this podcast, but I think perhaps you expected this. 05:47.931 --> 05:52.973 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to know about what that actually looked like to live with your wife and your kids and what are your spiritual rhythms and how do you set that up? 05:53.013 --> 05:55.233 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you do with children at certain moments? 05:55.253 --> 06:04.177 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're diving into that today, but there's a reason that we want to focus on rhythms and habits as sort of the core of how we become intentional. 06:05.157 --> 06:11.143 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'll just dive in and share one of my stories of failure that kind of got me here. 06:11.924 --> 06:18.391 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you've been listening, you probably remember that I have four boys right now the time of this recording. 06:18.551 --> 06:21.213 [SPEAKER_01]: They are between six and thirteen. 06:23.049 --> 06:27.892 [SPEAKER_01]: But this story, you know, time of this story, they were all like little little. 06:28.572 --> 06:38.638 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm putting my little little boys to bed one night and putting four boys to bed is exactly as messy and chaotic as you think, putting four boys to bed. 06:39.179 --> 06:44.482 [SPEAKER_01]: Are we have a lot of escapes from bath if we even do bath, you know, and that's not a given. 06:44.682 --> 06:46.243 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of dirty boys in our house. 06:46.263 --> 06:49.145 [SPEAKER_01]: So if that time was happening, it was this particular night. 06:49.785 --> 06:50.867 [SPEAKER_01]: tons of boys are escaping. 06:51.568 --> 06:53.512 [SPEAKER_01]: They're slippery and soapy so I cannot catch them. 06:54.734 --> 07:01.287 [SPEAKER_01]: They end up in their room doing what we call their Greco-Roman wrestling matches which which is what naked wrestling. 07:03.711 --> 07:06.352 [SPEAKER_00]: such a real picture in due fatherhood. 07:06.372 --> 07:13.874 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the amount of things that you end up tolerating like, okay, this is weird and wild, but you can't say no to everything, right? 07:13.894 --> 07:15.415 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't stop everything. 07:15.435 --> 07:22.097 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is happening, and I'm getting how I normally get, and that is increasingly frustrated, increasingly out of control. 07:22.337 --> 07:22.537 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:23.277 --> 07:28.359 [SPEAKER_01]: And I snap into what I have now termed my impotent dictator mode. 07:28.779 --> 07:30.880 [SPEAKER_01]: impotent impotent dictator. 07:30.960 --> 07:37.763 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I like because I start yelling and shouting commands threatening, you know, significant violence. 07:38.543 --> 07:39.623 [SPEAKER_01]: PJs are not put on. 07:40.804 --> 07:41.104 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man. 07:41.184 --> 07:43.785 [SPEAKER_01]: So much like a dictator, but yeah, impotent dictator. 07:43.825 --> 07:44.625 [SPEAKER_01]: No one's listening. 07:44.685 --> 07:45.366 [SPEAKER_01]: No one cares. 07:45.426 --> 07:47.287 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm raising everybody's stress volume. 07:47.627 --> 07:47.787 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 07:47.867 --> 07:49.047 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not helping at all. 07:49.788 --> 07:56.510 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember saying, you know, saying like getting to the weird stuff like I'm like, I don't care if that's your toothbrush or not, just use it. 07:57.190 --> 07:57.671 [SPEAKER_01]: We just got 07:58.651 --> 08:05.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's your mom's putting in your mouth messed up with your teeth or I remember saying We're done with water no more water. 08:06.134 --> 08:22.939 [SPEAKER_01]: You're drinking it going in it because you don't they they figure out how to abuse every if you got a poke like okay You can always ask for more water and like no stop like you can't so it's just one of these bad night I Kind of forcibly get them all in bed and say, you know God loves you. 08:22.979 --> 08:23.960 [SPEAKER_01]: I do too and shut the door 08:25.160 --> 08:31.225 [SPEAKER_01]: And the irony of that statement on top of all my actions that night begins to set in in the hallway. 08:31.825 --> 08:35.288 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have an epiphany that was not good. 08:35.308 --> 08:38.410 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just that this is what it's like to live with me. 08:38.430 --> 08:42.493 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is kind of part of the question of this episode. 08:43.787 --> 08:45.128 [SPEAKER_01]: What does it feel like to live with you? 08:46.509 --> 08:49.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether from your wife's perspective or for your children's perspective. 08:50.211 --> 08:51.712 [SPEAKER_01]: What's the norm of the house? 08:51.752 --> 08:56.675 [SPEAKER_01]: What is what is what typical mood rhythms? 08:56.715 --> 08:59.017 [SPEAKER_01]: What's it like to live with this father? 08:59.597 --> 09:01.298 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you can imagine, this is an uncomfortable question. 09:01.318 --> 09:03.319 [SPEAKER_01]: It's uncomfortable for me for two reasons. 09:03.400 --> 09:04.720 [SPEAKER_01]: One because of what had all just happened. 09:05.241 --> 09:08.183 [SPEAKER_01]: But two, Brooke honestly, it was doubly 09:09.285 --> 09:12.646 [SPEAKER_01]: painful because I'm the guy who just had finished writing a book. 09:12.746 --> 09:15.467 [SPEAKER_01]: It had just come out on, you know, habits. 09:15.767 --> 09:17.067 [SPEAKER_01]: This is my first book, it come out on. 09:17.107 --> 09:17.267 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 09:18.227 --> 09:20.228 [SPEAKER_01]: Habits is liturgies and why rhythms matter. 09:20.288 --> 09:24.949 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I felt like I'd done a lot of work to get my technology rhythms and my work rhythms together. 09:25.389 --> 09:31.211 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm realizing in the hallway the night, I have this other very uncomfortable rhythm of shouting my kids to bed every night. 09:32.051 --> 09:35.192 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just felt kind of condemned by my normal. 09:35.392 --> 09:36.112 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought embarrassed. 09:37.012 --> 09:40.455 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we're going to talk about a lot of rhythms for the household and this episode. 09:41.015 --> 09:45.458 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you have that feeling of like, oh my gosh, I'm not very good at this. 09:45.478 --> 09:45.919 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 09:45.939 --> 09:48.300 [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to know that's exactly the feeling that I had. 09:48.901 --> 09:53.644 [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt really embarrassed because I was talking about it in other places of life as I was failing as a father doing it. 09:54.445 --> 09:58.288 [SPEAKER_01]: So I confess this some of this to my pastor at the time. 09:58.988 --> 10:04.530 [SPEAKER_01]: And he encouraged me just out of practical help, which, by the way, a lot of this episode will be practical help. 10:04.970 --> 10:11.692 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe you should try a bedtime liturgy with your kids, like something that sort of helps you steward that moment into something different. 10:11.732 --> 10:18.074 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, yes, okay, a little bit ironic that I just wrote about habits as liturgies and now I'm being told maybe you should try a liturgy. 10:19.058 --> 10:26.005 [SPEAKER_01]: So I do, and I go to the bedtime with a sticky note next time. 10:26.045 --> 10:30.169 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've written my first bedtime letter G. And can I say it with you? 10:31.290 --> 10:32.210 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to do it like this. 10:32.291 --> 10:32.551 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 10:32.611 --> 10:33.972 [SPEAKER_00]: I love it weird. 10:34.272 --> 10:36.294 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be the dad and you're going to be the kid. 10:37.263 --> 10:38.845 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, that's bound to not be weird. 10:38.886 --> 10:39.787 [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead, dominant. 10:40.027 --> 10:49.421 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is just after you were really concerned that my input on the on the actual microphone input space is number one and yours was number two and your question was, why is my number two? 10:49.441 --> 10:51.023 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to reclaim some authority here. 10:52.593 --> 10:56.115 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I will be the son to the impotent dictator. 10:57.717 --> 10:58.017 [SPEAKER_01]: Perfect. 10:58.057 --> 10:58.597 [SPEAKER_01]: Now we're set up. 10:58.977 --> 11:03.340 [SPEAKER_01]: So I go in to an evening with my kids and I've written down a series of questions on a sticking out. 11:04.781 --> 11:05.482 [SPEAKER_01]: And they go like this. 11:06.082 --> 11:10.285 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to know the answers because all of them are yes until the Sunday school answer you're going to get you're going to do fine. 11:10.345 --> 11:10.525 [SPEAKER_01]: Ready? 11:10.665 --> 11:11.026 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope so. 11:11.326 --> 11:11.986 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see my eyes? 11:12.547 --> 11:12.827 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 11:13.687 --> 11:15.409 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you see that I see your eyes? 11:15.929 --> 11:16.229 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 11:16.890 --> 11:17.430 [SPEAKER_00]: You know that I love you. 11:19.458 --> 11:19.999 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually do. 11:20.640 --> 11:20.961 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. 11:21.602 --> 11:22.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Not weird at all right. 11:22.263 --> 11:22.704 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that weird? 11:22.824 --> 11:23.145 [SPEAKER_01]: Just fine. 11:23.165 --> 11:24.066 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know that I love you? 11:24.387 --> 11:25.749 [SPEAKER_01]: No matter what bad things you do. 11:26.551 --> 11:26.811 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 11:27.593 --> 11:28.194 [SPEAKER_01]: You know that I love you. 11:28.234 --> 11:29.156 [SPEAKER_01]: No matter what good things you do. 11:30.478 --> 11:30.738 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 11:31.620 --> 11:32.542 [SPEAKER_01]: Who else loves you like that? 11:33.262 --> 11:33.683 [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus. 11:34.403 --> 11:34.784 [SPEAKER_00]: There you go. 11:35.064 --> 11:35.825 [SPEAKER_01]: Rest in that love. 11:36.185 --> 11:36.446 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 11:36.706 --> 11:37.487 [SPEAKER_00]: You got the right answer. 11:37.527 --> 11:38.108 [SPEAKER_00]: I got the right answer. 11:38.188 --> 11:38.808 [SPEAKER_01]: You got the right answer. 11:38.949 --> 11:39.629 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 11:40.771 --> 11:43.013 [SPEAKER_01]: That, that is, that wasn't super awkward. 11:43.194 --> 11:46.157 [SPEAKER_00]: No, and even two men, it wasn't that awkward, but that's powerful. 11:46.297 --> 11:50.582 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, whatever's out there, whatever you think of what we just said. 11:51.683 --> 11:58.106 [SPEAKER_01]: sentimental or weird, just know that doing it with my four young boys for the first time had to be the most. 11:58.126 --> 12:00.287 [SPEAKER_01]: Was very chaotic and very weird. 12:00.307 --> 12:01.008 [SPEAKER_01]: It did not work. 12:01.308 --> 12:03.049 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, can you see my eyes? 12:03.909 --> 12:06.290 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, I can poke your eyes. 12:06.450 --> 12:07.971 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're literally like, yeah, they're right there. 12:08.391 --> 12:09.912 [SPEAKER_01]: Or they start like, I see my brother's eyes. 12:09.932 --> 12:12.833 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you see, you know, they know the right answers to the questions. 12:12.994 --> 12:16.115 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked them, do you know that I love you no matter what bad things you do? 12:16.735 --> 12:19.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And they just simply were like, no. 12:20.137 --> 12:23.582 [SPEAKER_01]: because they thought that was the right answer that I didn't love them when they did bad things. 12:23.622 --> 12:28.108 [SPEAKER_01]: It was very like, oh, oh, oh, huh, that's uncomfortable. 12:28.289 --> 12:32.314 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so, and I partly forgot what I was going to say. 12:32.354 --> 12:34.197 [SPEAKER_01]: You can just, I tell the story because 12:35.138 --> 12:37.280 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing is normal in the household until it is. 12:38.581 --> 12:45.087 [SPEAKER_01]: And anything that you want to do, whether rhythms in your marriage or rhythms with your kids, you have to just practice. 12:45.147 --> 12:48.129 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be weird and awkward at first, just like that was. 12:48.690 --> 12:53.114 [SPEAKER_01]: I did know enough about habits and parenting by then to know that I just should persevere. 12:53.754 --> 12:54.275 [SPEAKER_01]: So we did. 12:54.855 --> 12:56.136 [SPEAKER_01]: And then a beautiful thing happened. 12:57.174 --> 13:03.276 [SPEAKER_01]: About two weeks later, we had a bedtime night where one of my sons said, a pop, do we have our bedtime blessing now? 13:04.057 --> 13:12.400 [SPEAKER_01]: And we exchanged these, if you think about them, these beautiful words of the gospel that no matter our behavior, 13:12.980 --> 13:22.626 [SPEAKER_01]: We can look at each other's eyes and say the dominant fact of this place, our house, our family and the world and today is that God loves us. 13:23.427 --> 13:27.870 [SPEAKER_01]: No matter how it went, despite my misbehavior and despite my best deeds. 13:29.270 --> 13:30.571 [SPEAKER_01]: He loves us anyway. 13:30.711 --> 13:32.411 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a place to rest. 13:32.871 --> 13:33.871 [SPEAKER_01]: That's you can sleep on that. 13:33.891 --> 13:34.672 [SPEAKER_01]: You can rest in that. 13:35.212 --> 13:38.332 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember closing the door that night and having another epiphany. 13:38.372 --> 13:39.793 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of epiphanys and always. 13:39.813 --> 13:46.294 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we're doing all my major thinking outside and having outside the bedroom door waiting for somebody to ask for water. 13:46.314 --> 13:53.896 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, but it was much better that night because what I realized was that the circumstances of that evening were really not that different. 13:53.916 --> 13:55.176 [SPEAKER_01]: There was still bathwater on the floor. 13:55.816 --> 13:57.377 [SPEAKER_01]: There was still a lot of misbehavior. 13:58.457 --> 14:11.508 [SPEAKER_01]: The circumstances had not changed what did change was my reaction to them because in this I think it's the power of a good parenting habit, of a good fatherhood habit, of a good habit for your marriage. 14:12.429 --> 14:17.413 [SPEAKER_01]: The Lord can use rhythms to change your knee jerk reaction to ordinary circumstances. 14:17.673 --> 14:19.054 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you said it again. 14:19.214 --> 14:25.999 [SPEAKER_01]: The Lord can use these rhythms to change your knee jerk reaction to ordinary circumstances and thus 14:27.127 --> 14:35.515 [SPEAKER_01]: open you and your children and your wife up to new moments of loving each other and loving God in those moments. 14:35.575 --> 14:35.795 [SPEAKER_01]: Good. 14:36.095 --> 14:41.300 [SPEAKER_01]: And if that's not the goal of family and what the Lord wants to do in your family, I don't know what is. 14:41.780 --> 14:42.641 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's it. 14:42.841 --> 14:53.530 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's such good news because if God can work in the ordinary messy moments of families doing things wrong, 14:55.492 --> 14:59.456 [SPEAKER_01]: That means he can work in a family like mine because most of my moments are messy. 15:00.377 --> 15:01.739 [SPEAKER_01]: Most of my moments are ordinary. 15:02.279 --> 15:13.571 [SPEAKER_01]: And I sort of had, I think up until then, thought the real moments of family formation were going to be in some deep conversation or like family devotion context, probably at church or just out of the house. 15:13.611 --> 15:16.974 [SPEAKER_01]: I was looking for spirituality outside of the chaos. 15:17.655 --> 15:22.318 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was when the Lord showed me no right here in the mess and the churn of the household. 15:22.979 --> 15:30.684 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to come and form you into people who learn how to love each other, who learn how to love the fellow centers they live with. 15:31.404 --> 15:34.426 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, the gospel lives here. 15:34.626 --> 15:35.907 [SPEAKER_01]: This is where he's going to shape us. 15:36.447 --> 15:41.351 [SPEAKER_01]: And ever since then, I've been trying to look for gospel formation in the ordinary moments. 15:43.592 --> 15:46.153 [SPEAKER_01]: So bedtime litigies, that's one way to approach it. 15:46.293 --> 15:48.694 [SPEAKER_01]: I want, we're going to cover this episode a bunch of different ways. 15:48.934 --> 15:50.914 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's look at marriage. 15:50.974 --> 15:52.115 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at moments of discipline. 15:52.135 --> 15:53.535 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at how we use technology. 15:53.595 --> 15:55.296 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at conversations with our kids. 15:55.336 --> 16:01.037 [SPEAKER_01]: How can we look for rhythms that open up new ways to love each other and receive the Lord's love for us? 16:02.218 --> 16:02.978 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk to us about marriage. 16:03.599 --> 16:07.465 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, I was going to say I had so many questions on what you're saying, but I would just note. 16:07.605 --> 16:09.408 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't we don't have to move too quickly. 16:09.448 --> 16:16.117 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to write out what I just think is important to say that the actual bedtime letter G will be written out in the show notes. 16:16.257 --> 16:18.140 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's what I want you to do if you are a father. 16:18.780 --> 16:20.242 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no need to reinvent this. 16:20.322 --> 16:29.052 [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, you were the first one when you said that when you when you first time we connected, you had told that story. 16:29.392 --> 16:32.876 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we took it and we've done it with our kids. 16:33.377 --> 16:34.217 [SPEAKER_00]: Now you've done it with your kids? 16:34.237 --> 16:37.942 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, not as like religiously meaning like not every single night. 16:38.442 --> 16:43.587 [SPEAKER_00]: But just to note, it was insanely awkward at first and just like similar deal. 16:43.607 --> 16:44.928 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they just don't want to do. 16:45.008 --> 16:58.160 [SPEAKER_01]: As it turns out, pronouncing love over each other, blessing each other, blessing your children, blessing your wife, it is actually awkward at first because we are not used to speaking intentional words of love to each other. 16:58.660 --> 17:03.363 [SPEAKER_01]: But what do we all need more than intentional words of love? 17:03.403 --> 17:12.147 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I imagine there's something awkward to the heavens opening up and the Lord in the Holy Spirit speaking down to Jesus and saying, you are my beloved son with you and well, please. 17:12.167 --> 17:14.328 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is very direct. 17:14.548 --> 17:14.988 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 17:15.028 --> 17:19.891 [SPEAKER_01]: But those are the moments that change us that actually speak the words that need to be spoken. 17:20.272 --> 17:21.132 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes. 17:21.212 --> 17:28.235 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to say take that copy it, put it in the note and use it, try it. 17:28.555 --> 17:36.138 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to rewrite your own, but I think all I'll just say from, you know, your lived experience, but also my lived experience of using that as an example. 17:36.779 --> 17:44.382 [SPEAKER_00]: It is really helpful because your kids start to realize some stuff after it becomes a little normalized like, hey, remember? 17:45.422 --> 17:47.503 [SPEAKER_00]: And you said this before, but what do we use? 17:47.523 --> 17:52.726 [SPEAKER_00]: I've used this with my own girls of like saying, hey, you know that I love you no matter what, right? 17:52.746 --> 17:54.707 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. 17:54.847 --> 17:55.588 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so yeah. 17:55.808 --> 17:59.550 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's it's reinforcing, but I just wanted to pause and say do that. 17:59.570 --> 18:07.214 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very practical thing to live into, but I also like that, you know, what you're saying is again, it came out from a place of desperation, frustration. 18:07.234 --> 18:07.374 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 18:07.654 --> 18:30.885 [SPEAKER_00]: weakness doing it wrong for a long time and this is the reminder like that you can change your mind you can all the stuff that we've talked about up to this point you have things like neuroplasticity and choice and spirit and body like there's all these things together but you can do some of these things and so even tonight if you're listening to this try it just try it yeah don't overthink it just try and see what happens and take some notes you know mentally like oh that was weird or 18:31.982 --> 18:34.563 [SPEAKER_00]: They have a softness or do it for a week instead of half a day. 18:34.863 --> 18:50.909 [SPEAKER_01]: And part of the wisdom here is, we talked about this in earlier episodes, but the way that habits guide you and make things normal, even when your upper brain's doing more complicated stuff, habits can bring you into new rhythms of norms. 18:51.110 --> 18:55.471 [SPEAKER_01]: And so once we realized this was helpful to bedtime routine, this was helpful to be intentional. 18:55.491 --> 18:56.372 [SPEAKER_01]: It was also just helpful to 18:57.572 --> 18:59.734 [SPEAKER_01]: for everybody to know where this time was going. 19:00.754 --> 19:05.377 [SPEAKER_01]: We started to do all these other ones, somewhere we call them tickle blessings that were just like more lighthearted and fun. 19:06.398 --> 19:11.261 [SPEAKER_01]: Some were body blessings where I got blessed each part of their body and like, speak words of love over them. 19:11.461 --> 19:16.124 [SPEAKER_01]: And I aggregated all these and put them in the last chapter of happens at the household. 19:16.164 --> 19:16.445 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's 19:17.445 --> 19:20.528 [SPEAKER_01]: In case you're wondering, wait, is every night really that serious? 19:20.588 --> 19:26.011 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, like lots of nights, I'm tickling them as I say, you know, may you laugh for joy all your days, amen. 19:26.232 --> 19:33.177 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as a way, because there must be hating or they're like jumping around and I'm like, I'm not going to try to bring this moment to a super calm, serious thing. 19:33.417 --> 19:33.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:33.877 --> 19:37.860 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to fight fire with fire and tickle the heck out of them while pronouncing a lesson out of them. 19:38.400 --> 19:40.362 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is all like younger years stuff. 19:40.382 --> 19:42.243 [SPEAKER_01]: This is, you know, both of us have older children. 19:42.263 --> 19:42.824 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not doing this. 19:42.904 --> 19:44.565 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I shouldn't do this with Duke my fifteen year old. 19:44.645 --> 19:45.826 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm blessed this part of your body. 19:46.647 --> 19:48.769 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not opposed to it. 19:49.109 --> 19:50.991 [SPEAKER_00]: I just think of him at this point. 19:51.252 --> 19:55.196 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, you know, he drew us around. 19:55.276 --> 19:56.637 [SPEAKER_00]: He's a man. 19:56.657 --> 19:57.118 [SPEAKER_00]: He's a man. 19:57.238 --> 19:59.881 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, why are you touching my leg, Dad? 20:00.001 --> 20:02.463 [SPEAKER_00]: What did the flesh mean there? 20:02.523 --> 20:03.985 [SPEAKER_00]: I could just see all of them. 20:04.145 --> 20:05.967 [SPEAKER_01]: What I love about this though is that 20:08.512 --> 20:09.913 [SPEAKER_01]: You said, you know, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. 20:09.953 --> 20:12.095 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, go look at chapter ten of habits of the household. 20:12.115 --> 20:13.196 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of ideas for you. 20:13.236 --> 20:22.383 [SPEAKER_01]: But on the same token, what this is trying to give you is a format of speaking intentionally, thinking intentionally about your rhythms. 20:22.963 --> 20:28.628 [SPEAKER_01]: And you more than me will figure out how to adapt that to your particular children in your particular house. 20:29.088 --> 20:33.532 [SPEAKER_01]: And their particular age, like I don't do that blessing really with my oldest son anymore. 20:33.792 --> 20:33.992 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:34.232 --> 20:35.113 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what I do do. 20:35.753 --> 20:40.775 [SPEAKER_01]: as I put my hand on his shoulder and look him in the eyes and say, I love you, I'm proud of you. 20:40.795 --> 20:41.795 [SPEAKER_01]: God is too. 20:42.375 --> 20:42.655 [SPEAKER_01]: Good night. 20:43.155 --> 20:47.517 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and you will know better than me how to adapt it to your age and stage. 20:48.017 --> 21:02.021 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think understanding that this is a paradigm, if there's a way that it feels to live with you, there's a normal of your household, address that and think in intentional patterns, your children need you to pay attention to the habits. 21:02.081 --> 21:03.382 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the thesis of this 21:04.202 --> 21:08.387 [SPEAKER_01]: is, you know, we become our habits and our children become us. 21:09.007 --> 21:16.075 [SPEAKER_01]: So paying attention to the habits of the household is to pay attention to the spiritual formation of our families. 21:16.736 --> 21:20.800 [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to allow the name of this podcast be intentional about that. 21:20.920 --> 21:21.880 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes. 21:23.381 --> 21:32.805 [SPEAKER_00]: I have so many thoughts, but I think you said, I mean, just so many like, yes, any men's and then add ons, but I think you said it so well, so beautifully. 21:32.925 --> 21:34.546 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a great resource. 21:35.567 --> 21:44.511 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, marriage is a different combination, you know, as a father, most of most fathers, depending upon situations, obviously there's different circumstances. 21:45.431 --> 21:46.492 [SPEAKER_00]: You have a spouse, you're married. 21:46.692 --> 21:52.734 [SPEAKER_00]: And in that, there's an intentionality that every father needs to have with his wife, first. 21:52.854 --> 22:02.538 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's nothing more important than a strong healthy marriage to reinforce your fatherhood, but also to reinforce the security of your home. 22:03.318 --> 22:06.899 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just be, I'll be straight up transparent with you and anyone listening. 22:07.500 --> 22:13.162 [SPEAKER_00]: The last six months has been not my brightest moments, not my best, not my most like, 22:13.422 --> 22:16.044 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm living into the city even as you're saying this right now. 22:16.565 --> 22:18.827 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, what's it like to be around me? 22:19.868 --> 22:20.348 [SPEAKER_00]: Not great. 22:20.548 --> 22:22.550 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know because I have active feedback. 22:23.411 --> 22:24.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the problem. 22:24.752 --> 22:30.977 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually, I do know and I'm working towards like getting to a better place mentally, emotionally. 22:31.658 --> 22:37.022 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm telling, I'm saying that because I think it's important to know like there's a lot of times that we are 22:37.843 --> 23:01.228 [SPEAKER_00]: We feel like we are slaying it in that department when someone at when someone like how is it living with me like let's actually great and you're doing wonderful and this is wonderful and then there's seasons when you're working through things and going to things and you might not be particularly easy to be around in that moment I'm saying that to just give permission like you might be in either of those spaces and just just tell you like I've been in where you where you're talking about and even currently working through like 23:01.828 --> 23:02.408 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been hard. 23:02.448 --> 23:09.870 [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason I'm saying is because I feel like I can't sit here with integrity and talk about marriage and knowing my wife will also hear this. 23:10.110 --> 23:13.530 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, she's going to hear like, I know it's like living with him right now. 23:13.610 --> 23:13.850 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 23:13.971 --> 23:14.831 [SPEAKER_00]: But he better be honest. 23:14.911 --> 23:16.111 [SPEAKER_00]: He's been working through a lot. 23:16.311 --> 23:19.092 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's been, and that has made him harder to be around. 23:19.292 --> 23:25.033 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and that's actually just, I think that's just the, the realness of the rhythms of life. 23:25.393 --> 23:30.494 [SPEAKER_00]: But to say from the place of like, I am with the human listening like, yeah. 23:31.194 --> 23:32.375 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to do better in this too. 23:32.535 --> 23:33.937 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the good news of grace, right? 23:34.017 --> 23:38.501 [SPEAKER_01]: That God meets us in our bad behavior and our even right now speaking neither of us. 23:39.101 --> 23:42.084 [SPEAKER_01]: We come out of difficult moments in the past, but also right now. 23:42.304 --> 23:42.684 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 23:42.784 --> 23:49.130 [SPEAKER_01]: And the good news about message of Jesus is that he actually wants to come in to the broken moments we have right now. 23:49.610 --> 23:49.830 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 23:49.850 --> 23:50.511 [SPEAKER_01]: Do something with him. 23:50.531 --> 23:50.731 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 23:50.931 --> 23:55.756 [SPEAKER_01]: If we're not honest about that, then we kind of cut off our ability to participate in that. 23:56.356 --> 24:00.840 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so let me maybe just to add you said speak on marriage for a second. 24:00.860 --> 24:05.544 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think just a practical thing that has been incredibly helpful for me. 24:07.486 --> 24:11.569 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I'm glad to do is I get to lead a ministry called intentional, right? 24:11.669 --> 24:14.992 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that we've been focusing on even in twenty twenty five is marriage. 24:15.052 --> 24:18.055 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's been a lot of stuff that we've been actually doing. 24:18.075 --> 24:19.696 [SPEAKER_00]: We have some retreats coming all that's really fun. 24:20.457 --> 24:31.762 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's forced me in a way to go even deeper in my understanding of like the things that really do work in our marriage and the things that don't and the things that I've learned the hard way and things that I've just come naturally. 24:32.743 --> 24:42.027 [SPEAKER_00]: And if there's one thing, there's a couple of things I'd say that are very important about marriage, but I will just give a very clear picture that I do not have a categorically easy marriage. 24:42.187 --> 24:44.088 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know many people that do. 24:44.928 --> 24:49.390 [SPEAKER_00]: I think marriage in many fronts no matter how good your personality dispositions 24:49.630 --> 24:51.251 [SPEAKER_00]: fit is work. 24:51.491 --> 24:52.051 [SPEAKER_00]: It's tension. 24:52.091 --> 24:52.451 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard. 24:52.471 --> 24:54.372 [SPEAKER_00]: There are moments of high highs and low lows. 24:54.872 --> 24:59.293 [SPEAKER_00]: It's somebody seeing the whole view, the clearest of you, the deepest of you at all moments. 24:59.353 --> 25:05.195 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's very over the course of time that has a lot of blessing and beauty. 25:05.215 --> 25:07.196 [SPEAKER_00]: And it also has different moments of pain. 25:08.036 --> 25:13.521 [SPEAKER_00]: All that to say, I know there's something that have like extreme personality differences, plus you're married, and that makes it even harder. 25:13.581 --> 25:14.061 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah. 25:14.301 --> 25:24.169 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know where you're at listening, but I'm just gonna tell you a couple of things that no matter where you're at, have been very helpful for me, and are universally, I think, as I've shared it with others, and as others have jumped in, it'd been very helpful. 25:25.570 --> 25:30.454 [SPEAKER_00]: I was reading the scriptures once, and, you know, I was trying to figure out what biblical love was. 25:30.534 --> 25:32.015 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's all these different types of love. 25:32.035 --> 25:32.876 [SPEAKER_00]: You have a goppé love. 25:32.916 --> 25:35.838 [SPEAKER_00]: You have all these different types of love. 25:37.078 --> 25:41.521 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would just say, one of the most basic translations is to will to go to the other. 25:41.861 --> 25:44.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's what biblical love is. 25:44.883 --> 25:47.385 [SPEAKER_00]: It's to say, how can I look at your life, Justin? 25:47.725 --> 25:49.526 [SPEAKER_00]: And will it to be better than it is right now? 25:49.686 --> 25:50.507 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a version of love. 25:51.470 --> 26:10.979 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I remember hearing that and thinking and realizing like, I say, I love my wife all the time, but truly that is the feelings of romance and in and out that that goes in and out or feelings of romance are not often the the initiator feelings of romance follow active love willing the good of someone else. 26:11.019 --> 26:17.262 [SPEAKER_00]: We often put romance or the feelings first and wait for, you know, the desire for this to come and it never does because this is not how it works. 26:17.542 --> 26:22.464 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever seen the short film collection, Perry Jutam? 26:22.825 --> 26:23.045 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 26:23.645 --> 26:23.865 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 26:24.085 --> 26:25.186 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's very sophisticated. 26:25.686 --> 26:28.567 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah, it's very simple. 26:29.928 --> 26:35.871 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a short film in that collection that changed my life of thinking about what you just said. 26:36.511 --> 26:37.552 [SPEAKER_01]: Because there's a short little film. 26:37.592 --> 26:38.312 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't even remember the name. 26:38.392 --> 26:39.573 [SPEAKER_01]: It's in the center of the collection. 26:39.593 --> 26:40.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 26:41.274 --> 26:44.235 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a character says by acting like a man in love. 26:44.315 --> 26:45.335 [SPEAKER_01]: He became a man in love. 26:46.496 --> 27:00.701 [SPEAKER_01]: And that messed up my categories for a while because I has been talking all my life just like everybody else that love was a feeling first and then you know because you love her you because you're so emotionally overwhelmed by her all the time. 27:01.722 --> 27:02.482 [SPEAKER_01]: Thus you do things. 27:03.542 --> 27:07.043 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, it almost was unromantic to me. 27:07.203 --> 27:09.984 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, by acting like a man in love, he became a man in love. 27:11.184 --> 27:23.967 [SPEAKER_01]: That is, that's not the full definition of biblical love, but that pushed on a side of the scale for me that helped me understand what it means to act like Jesus to our, to our wives. 27:24.447 --> 27:30.148 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is saying, I'm gonna, will the, you're good, I'm gonna act for your good, even when I don't feel like it. 27:30.768 --> 27:32.989 [SPEAKER_01]: And amazingly, when we do that, 27:33.469 --> 27:53.209 [SPEAKER_00]: We start following love game changer that that's a beautiful way to say and I would say what what I experienced from that was To will her good made me realize I need to learn how she gives and receives love like how does like it's nice that you might say I think a framework that's helpful is you have the love language right like that's a pretty basic one. 27:53.330 --> 27:53.470 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah 27:53.810 --> 27:58.137 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, acts of service, physical touch, you know, there's different kinds of love. 27:58.638 --> 28:08.773 [SPEAKER_00]: But it was to say like, I wonder how she feels love because I think some of the ways that I try to love her doesn't necessarily translate as the way she feels most loved, right? 28:09.274 --> 28:15.279 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I started studying her and asking her, I think one of the best phrases I also heard was the last. 28:15.379 --> 28:16.460 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I'm sorry, interrupt. 28:16.500 --> 28:17.221 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to pause there. 28:17.341 --> 28:19.022 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody just think about what you just said. 28:20.343 --> 28:21.364 [SPEAKER_01]: You started studying her. 28:21.384 --> 28:22.265 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 28:22.806 --> 28:23.026 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:23.066 --> 28:24.807 [SPEAKER_01]: I think father should be students of their children. 28:25.087 --> 28:25.248 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:25.308 --> 28:26.689 [SPEAKER_01]: It should be students of their wives. 28:26.889 --> 28:30.352 [SPEAKER_01]: We should study them and figure out what makes them feel loved. 28:30.672 --> 28:30.892 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 28:31.433 --> 28:32.193 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't do this. 28:32.413 --> 28:49.286 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's moments like I said that I'm where it's like not this is a hundred percent of the time, but I think it was like generalized studying and understanding of her and realizing from her feedback like hey, the way that she feels the most loved. 28:49.886 --> 28:51.027 [SPEAKER_00]: is like acts of service. 28:51.127 --> 28:59.473 [SPEAKER_00]: So when I do stuff for her and it's been said that every young mom's love language is acts of service or help, you know, like just turns out there's a lot to do. 28:59.493 --> 29:07.940 [SPEAKER_00]: Turns out that it's, I mean, every mom in that situation and we were even, you know, talking before and how many similarities both of our wives have in this stage have four kids. 29:08.000 --> 29:10.722 [SPEAKER_00]: They're, you know, variations of homeschooling at different times. 29:10.742 --> 29:13.624 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, yeah, they need their love language. 29:13.664 --> 29:15.586 [SPEAKER_00]: Just please help all the time. 29:16.586 --> 29:17.867 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's fair because it's overwhelming. 29:17.927 --> 29:18.127 [SPEAKER_00]: And so 29:19.729 --> 29:28.115 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember it was acts of service, and then she's by nature a very strong, she's a social introvert, but she's introvert. 29:28.155 --> 29:29.456 [SPEAKER_00]: She's recharge by being alone. 29:30.237 --> 29:33.740 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I made this connection, which is very brief in my mind. 29:33.780 --> 29:39.564 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, oh, to love my wife really well, I need to leave her alone and do stuff for her. 29:40.865 --> 29:42.046 [SPEAKER_00]: Fine, you wanted. 29:42.566 --> 29:45.509 [SPEAKER_00]: And that sounds the most unromantic. 29:45.549 --> 29:46.329 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, ever. 29:46.469 --> 29:46.649 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 29:47.510 --> 29:54.932 [SPEAKER_00]: Until I started saying, hey, it's Mother's Day, I'm gonna send you away for a night or two. 29:55.413 --> 30:05.656 [SPEAKER_00]: Like Mother's Day, we're supposed to be celebrating you as a mom and we did celebrate her before, but like your gift is to just go away for a couple nights at a hotel and we'll just take care of stuff here. 30:05.736 --> 30:05.876 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 30:06.316 --> 30:23.338 [SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen her come back so loved so affectionate so kind no we go in and out of these rhythms right but that was like a data point for me of like whoa she will always feel loved when I empty the dishwasher without her asking with if I just start mopping the floor 30:24.459 --> 30:32.810 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sensing like you anticipate her needs, anticipate what she wants, and serve her before she even needs to ask for it. 30:32.830 --> 30:38.997 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's- Yes, sometimes she does ask, but I think it goes even further because for her specifically, and this is just her bent, 30:39.678 --> 30:41.900 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the thoughtfulness that also means a lot to her. 30:41.940 --> 30:44.182 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that I'm taking time to think of her. 30:44.242 --> 30:47.384 [SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't care what gifts I give her like on a birthday as an example. 30:48.165 --> 30:50.146 [SPEAKER_00]: As much she cares about did I think about it. 30:50.206 --> 30:51.087 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't thoughtful. 30:51.107 --> 30:51.247 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 30:51.527 --> 30:55.630 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's more important to her than like, hey, I got you the thing on your list. 30:55.830 --> 30:56.311 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? 30:56.411 --> 30:56.671 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 30:56.911 --> 30:57.171 [SPEAKER_00]: And so 30:59.714 --> 31:09.887 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying to will the good of your spouse is an important thing to remember because as husbands, it is our job to get a PhD in all things our spouse. 31:10.628 --> 31:13.953 [SPEAKER_00]: We are to become studies and studyers and learners of them. 31:14.473 --> 31:16.656 [SPEAKER_00]: the phrase and I'm blanking on it right now. 31:17.737 --> 31:24.765 [SPEAKER_00]: But the scripture that talks about basically husbands love your wives well so that your prayers aren't hindered. 31:25.365 --> 31:26.006 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? 31:26.046 --> 31:30.531 [SPEAKER_00]: Like do you want to get like God cares so much about how you treat your spouse? 31:31.352 --> 31:38.260 [SPEAKER_00]: that he says, I'm not going to listen to your prayers unless you treat her well. 31:39.141 --> 31:46.050 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm paraphrasing obviously, but that's essentially the heart of that text and that's a very sobering thought. 31:46.590 --> 31:50.012 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just to say, like, dudes, we have bad days. 31:50.172 --> 31:53.794 [SPEAKER_00]: Father's we have bad days, but in general, are you asking the question? 31:54.034 --> 31:55.135 [SPEAKER_00]: What makes her feel loved? 31:55.255 --> 32:02.499 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you need something from her, whether that's physical affection, attention, conversation, 32:03.600 --> 32:10.044 [SPEAKER_00]: and you're going about it by just being angry, grumpy and rude, you are never going to get, it's the opposite way. 32:11.085 --> 32:17.549 [SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing what follows and how your needs become met by taking the initiative and going first. 32:17.769 --> 32:19.390 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to love you this way. 32:20.250 --> 32:26.893 [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't mean that your problems are gone and it doesn't mean that things are just all of a sudden easy and it doesn't mean like these dynamics go away. 32:27.653 --> 32:30.654 [SPEAKER_00]: But it makes your life far, far, far easier, far better. 32:30.674 --> 32:31.534 [SPEAKER_00]: It's richer. 32:31.554 --> 32:33.235 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the last thing I'll say. 32:33.255 --> 32:35.756 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you have to have a categorical moment. 32:36.376 --> 32:47.980 [SPEAKER_00]: for yourself and your spouse, where you decide beyond all heaven and earth that no matter what comes, you are going to stay married. 32:48.740 --> 32:49.120 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 32:49.360 --> 32:51.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen, dude. 32:51.761 --> 32:52.982 [SPEAKER_00]: Look at the vows. 32:53.002 --> 32:57.503 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just say something on this just practically because we were twenty one when we got married. 32:57.563 --> 32:58.883 [SPEAKER_00]: So I said a lot of stuff. 32:59.124 --> 33:00.044 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm a husband now. 33:00.584 --> 33:04.349 [SPEAKER_00]: had no idea what it meant to be husband, but I had the title, right, and we step into this life. 33:04.669 --> 33:11.799 [SPEAKER_00]: And I meant what I said when I vowed to her, but at the very same time when life gets going and life gets hard for my girl, you have to go like, 33:12.492 --> 33:13.753 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, man. 33:14.153 --> 33:21.759 [SPEAKER_00]: This wasn't the same set of circumstances now that it wasn't in like we were in our best shape, which is the point of the vow. 33:21.919 --> 33:26.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's absolutely that despite come what may, I will love you to your dying days. 33:26.263 --> 33:27.644 [SPEAKER_01]: Like a movie here, move on, Rouge. 33:28.124 --> 33:28.705 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 33:29.565 --> 33:30.986 [SPEAKER_01]: But you, thank you. 33:31.767 --> 33:32.968 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing better interrupting you on this. 33:33.168 --> 33:34.389 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're moving me. 33:34.709 --> 33:35.570 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good. 33:35.630 --> 33:36.230 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was. 33:37.131 --> 33:43.234 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Chesterton said, when we make a promise, we make an appointment with ourselves in the future. 33:43.294 --> 33:44.415 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I've heard this. 33:44.595 --> 33:50.417 [SPEAKER_01]: And that idea that you made vows precisely because you don't know what the future is going to bring. 33:50.898 --> 33:53.399 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, if we knew, we wouldn't do it. 33:53.959 --> 33:56.080 [SPEAKER_01]: If we knew how hard it was going to get, we'd be like, you know what? 33:56.140 --> 33:56.580 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm out. 33:57.261 --> 34:01.583 [SPEAKER_01]: But, but we make the vows because, and then I think it was Lewis Meads who said this, 34:02.423 --> 34:04.465 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, my wife has been married to five different men. 34:04.505 --> 34:04.705 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 34:04.845 --> 34:05.025 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 34:05.126 --> 34:07.087 [SPEAKER_01]: Over the course of our marriage and all of them have been made. 34:07.107 --> 34:07.468 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 34:08.288 --> 34:16.816 [SPEAKER_01]: We've you changed she changes your body changes her body changes kids change everything and all of it becomes difficult. 34:16.856 --> 34:22.361 [SPEAKER_01]: But I I love the courage and the countercultural nature of the statement that you've got to decide. 34:23.542 --> 34:26.685 [SPEAKER_01]: to obey your valves and say, yeah, we're going to stay mayor. 34:26.705 --> 34:33.690 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to work as hard as we can to stay married because it's that that brings the beautiful sanctification of marriage. 34:34.210 --> 34:37.253 [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, we wash, we wash here by the word. 34:37.293 --> 34:39.054 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, that's friction. 34:39.234 --> 34:40.836 [SPEAKER_01]: Like marriage creates difficulty. 34:40.936 --> 34:41.196 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 34:41.336 --> 34:43.718 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I want to just add a few caveats. 34:45.079 --> 34:49.362 [SPEAKER_00]: What I mean by that is I know so many that experience in fidelity, right? 34:49.402 --> 34:52.385 [SPEAKER_00]: There's their spouse and their other spouse is cheated on me. 34:53.178 --> 34:57.244 [SPEAKER_00]: Biblically, there's permission to divorce after that, right? 34:57.564 --> 34:58.005 [SPEAKER_00]: We see that. 34:58.846 --> 35:00.528 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not, it's not commanded. 35:01.009 --> 35:02.110 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would just say this. 35:02.771 --> 35:05.194 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know every situation, and I don't know every story. 35:05.735 --> 35:10.682 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's a lot of stories that God would be interested in redeeming, and then we eject on very quickly. 35:11.682 --> 35:15.404 [SPEAKER_00]: And let me just be very honest with for real reasons because it is really hard. 35:15.444 --> 35:16.384 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very overwhelming. 35:17.045 --> 35:31.511 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, if there's things like abuse, if there's things like, yeah, there's certain reasons that, you know, obviously divorce becomes the only option because one spouse or both ejecting such a hard way that it is becoming dangerous and toxic for that person. 35:31.771 --> 35:31.931 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 35:32.211 --> 35:35.693 [SPEAKER_00]: That said, though, if some of those big factors are removed, 35:36.613 --> 35:41.338 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people get divorced out of the fact that there is inconvenience. 35:41.558 --> 35:42.639 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel it anymore. 35:42.659 --> 35:43.780 [SPEAKER_00]: I want more options. 35:44.281 --> 35:52.609 [SPEAKER_00]: These things that are, maybe feel true, but are not, it's like the lowest common denominator to quitting. 35:52.809 --> 35:53.009 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 35:53.249 --> 35:57.654 [SPEAKER_00]: Why I'm saying that we, because that for me has been the most helpful. 35:58.991 --> 36:20.341 [SPEAKER_00]: thing in my marriage to say commit to my wife like I'm in this with you for like a very long time so it's very advantageous for me to figure this out with you right and for her to say the same and then then also lastly I'll never forget the moment in like a lot of with chronic health and families which we have a lot of my wife and my kids we have some health stuff and 36:21.521 --> 36:28.204 [SPEAKER_00]: It creates so many micro systems, micro ecosystems of pain and trauma. 36:28.784 --> 36:30.144 [SPEAKER_00]: It adds a lot to marriage. 36:30.184 --> 36:36.046 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, most people that meet us and hear about our story professionals that is, they're like, you guys were still married. 36:36.447 --> 36:37.527 [SPEAKER_00]: They're surprised. 36:37.607 --> 36:39.768 [SPEAKER_00]: We just met with the behavioral therapist for our daughter, Birdie. 36:40.208 --> 36:41.688 [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, you guys are married? 36:42.349 --> 36:42.929 [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing. 36:43.109 --> 36:44.309 [SPEAKER_00]: Most people are not anymore. 36:44.429 --> 36:45.410 [SPEAKER_00]: So stay married. 36:45.690 --> 36:47.050 [SPEAKER_00]: Do not give up on this. 36:47.090 --> 36:48.391 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the fact that you've been married so long, 36:48.811 --> 36:51.032 [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, and she's not no Christian background. 36:51.052 --> 36:51.332 [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing. 36:51.372 --> 36:55.653 [SPEAKER_01]: She's just like, category love that the therapist in the last episode. 36:55.673 --> 36:56.153 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 36:56.633 --> 37:04.136 [SPEAKER_01]: And this baby or health counselor in this episode that there are professionals looking into your life and your marriage and your family and saying. 37:05.356 --> 37:09.878 [SPEAKER_01]: Whoa, I think they're saying a version of the Lord must be working for you to still be standing. 37:10.238 --> 37:12.318 [SPEAKER_01]: The Lord must be working for y'all still be married. 37:12.799 --> 37:12.899 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 37:12.919 --> 37:15.720 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think it's neat that people are seeing the testimony. 37:15.740 --> 37:17.080 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and even if they're not naming it. 37:17.100 --> 37:18.080 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need you know, so funny. 37:18.801 --> 37:30.545 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a hard time even like if I'm being honest with my own identity, like I don't want to be the guy that's like hard marriage or hard situation, but I categorically do and and I would just say like we don't have a categorically easy marriage. 37:31.185 --> 37:36.187 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would just say the best advice I ever got from the same counselor from the last episode. 37:36.947 --> 37:41.289 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, man, I got to be honest, life is so hard. 37:42.250 --> 37:53.954 [SPEAKER_00]: I so understand why dad's especially just ejected because I would be able to basically get out of this insane pain that I'm in all the time. 37:55.655 --> 37:57.216 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know logically that 37:58.297 --> 38:01.834 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's going to hurt, but it's a relief, right? 38:03.298 --> 38:08.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he told me he said, okay, well, go on a walk, entertain what it's gonna look like to be divorced. 38:09.559 --> 38:12.220 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, whoa, well, this is a Christian counselor. 38:12.620 --> 38:13.440 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not supposed to tell me that. 38:13.480 --> 38:14.601 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's, you can't say that. 38:15.061 --> 38:19.602 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, no, no, go on a walk and just think of it to its logical conclusion. 38:19.642 --> 38:32.745 [SPEAKER_00]: I give you permission, go on a walk and think about your life, think about your wife's life, and use all the details and data that you have to think really objectively about what her life would be like, your kid's life would be like in your life would be like, whoa, you have permission. 38:32.965 --> 38:35.185 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh my gosh. 38:36.146 --> 38:37.286 [SPEAKER_00]: So that night I go on a walk. 38:38.346 --> 38:46.428 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was asked the spirit to help me, like, please just give me the ability to objectively see this. 38:48.128 --> 38:52.089 [SPEAKER_00]: And so many beautiful bombs of truth going off. 38:52.229 --> 38:57.910 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I immediately almost immediately saw that I will exchange 38:59.681 --> 39:02.984 [SPEAKER_00]: momentary pain relief for a lifetime of pain. 39:03.584 --> 39:05.426 [SPEAKER_00]: So I won't have pain for three months. 39:06.006 --> 39:08.528 [SPEAKER_00]: What I'll be doing is cementing pain for the rest of my life. 39:08.848 --> 39:11.450 [SPEAKER_00]: Different kinds that I don't even have now that I'm not even experiencing. 39:11.831 --> 39:13.652 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm trading that. 39:13.772 --> 39:13.952 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 39:14.032 --> 39:20.838 [SPEAKER_00]: The second thing that I saw immediately was that my life will be empty. 39:21.799 --> 39:26.703 [SPEAKER_00]: My life will be confusing and I'll be sewing in pain for potentially generations. 39:27.443 --> 39:29.305 [SPEAKER_00]: by my choice to get out of discomfort. 39:30.566 --> 39:35.892 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was, I mean, so that advice sounds almost naughty, right? 39:35.932 --> 39:37.754 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like you can't say this. 39:38.795 --> 39:42.619 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the best advice anyone could have given me because I quickly saw logically. 39:44.002 --> 39:44.903 [SPEAKER_00]: divorce is off the table. 39:45.143 --> 39:47.104 [SPEAKER_00]: It is destructive in every way that it could be. 39:47.304 --> 39:48.565 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not even an answer. 39:48.885 --> 39:50.226 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a legitimized answer. 39:50.286 --> 39:56.050 [SPEAKER_00]: So after doing that, I was like, well, that's off the table because that will not actually do anything but cause pain. 39:56.691 --> 40:05.937 [SPEAKER_00]: And then after that, I think after that whole process, just got to a settled place in my heart where I was like, this isn't ever going to change. 40:06.277 --> 40:08.939 [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, like my marriage status to my wife. 40:09.559 --> 40:14.404 [SPEAKER_00]: And I started to realize in process, I need to start working on this. 40:14.684 --> 40:23.112 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I guess the phrase I would say is, this is something Elizabeth and I teach on really honestly, but it's worth the fight. 40:23.592 --> 40:24.113 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. 40:24.373 --> 40:24.933 [SPEAKER_00]: It's worth the fight. 40:24.973 --> 40:25.914 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the title of the teaching. 40:26.275 --> 40:30.078 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw that on a bag that you guys had made for the marriage retreat. 40:30.198 --> 40:30.839 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth the fight. 40:30.939 --> 40:32.020 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that so much. 40:32.120 --> 40:32.981 [SPEAKER_00]: It's worth the fight. 40:34.522 --> 40:36.644 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would just say that's all I can say about it. 40:36.805 --> 40:38.927 [SPEAKER_00]: It is worth whatever fight it's going to take. 40:39.407 --> 40:40.128 [SPEAKER_00]: It is worth the fight. 40:40.508 --> 40:43.672 [SPEAKER_00]: Can I I want to go with habits. 40:44.092 --> 40:45.133 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to bring this to a habit. 40:45.153 --> 40:47.536 [SPEAKER_01]: Please and and one quick caveat. 40:47.556 --> 40:48.797 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you you already said it. 40:51.404 --> 40:55.327 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you talk about the subject and it's so difficult because some people listening are divorced. 40:55.587 --> 40:57.188 [SPEAKER_01]: I know some people feel like they're headed there. 40:58.149 --> 41:02.992 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people are wondering, wait, I'm being abused or this is really unhealthy. 41:03.012 --> 41:03.933 [SPEAKER_01]: Do I not have permission? 41:04.413 --> 41:08.456 [SPEAKER_01]: I just love that God is more nuanced than we are. 41:08.476 --> 41:10.797 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you are whoever's listening. 41:11.698 --> 41:16.441 [SPEAKER_01]: He can say with the same Bible, God hates divorce. 41:18.377 --> 41:23.040 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, you know, there are some situations where even Jesus says, hey, you know, this permits it. 41:23.721 --> 41:27.063 [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that he's more nuanced than us. 41:27.283 --> 41:27.523 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 41:27.703 --> 41:31.046 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that he loves anyway, despite our brokenness. 41:31.206 --> 41:35.389 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that not we don't have all the answers, but you can say the main theme. 41:36.109 --> 41:38.432 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is that God is a God of covenant love. 41:38.932 --> 41:49.424 [SPEAKER_01]: He sticks with us through so many metaphors in the Bible, or of us, the bride of Christ, as the unfaithful lover, and yet he comes after us. 41:49.904 --> 41:53.868 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think about this theme of covenant through the Bible, and I think about 41:54.509 --> 41:57.110 [SPEAKER_01]: in habits of the household or in setting up rhythms. 41:57.711 --> 41:58.611 [SPEAKER_01]: I think about this in marriage. 41:58.631 --> 42:05.114 [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the most important rhythms that Lauren and I have set up is so simple and yet so profound. 42:05.874 --> 42:07.235 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's we call it date night. 42:07.555 --> 42:08.436 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, okay, really? 42:08.456 --> 42:09.676 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the best you got, Justin. 42:09.876 --> 42:10.237 [SPEAKER_01]: But wait. 42:10.557 --> 42:10.877 [SPEAKER_01]: But wait. 42:11.897 --> 42:13.898 [SPEAKER_01]: I think of it as practicing the covenant. 42:14.739 --> 42:17.580 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think of we typically like Wednesday night. 42:18.140 --> 42:19.281 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always date night. 42:19.441 --> 42:19.781 [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously? 42:19.821 --> 42:20.001 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 42:20.161 --> 42:21.262 [SPEAKER_01]: I better not get text from you. 42:22.934 --> 42:24.095 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 42:24.195 --> 42:25.096 [SPEAKER_01]: I will be busy doing it. 42:25.116 --> 42:37.067 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, there's a reason that we like Wednesday because right in the middle of the week where there's there's always more to do, there's I could always get on my laptop and send client emails. 42:37.447 --> 42:39.729 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always more dishes in the sink that I could get done. 42:40.030 --> 42:42.652 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always more tasks that Lauren could be working on for the boys. 42:42.692 --> 42:48.838 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is, we just have formed a rhythm of saying pause and stop. 42:49.899 --> 42:55.204 [SPEAKER_01]: We would be ships in the night, except that right now, we stop and say, we're married. 42:55.605 --> 42:57.767 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not just a mother and a father. 42:57.867 --> 42:58.528 [SPEAKER_01]: We're also lovers. 42:58.708 --> 42:59.649 [SPEAKER_01]: We're husband and wife. 43:00.430 --> 43:00.870 [SPEAKER_01]: All right. 43:00.890 --> 43:05.034 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to bring in my third movie, Richard Link later's the before sunrise trilogy. 43:05.074 --> 43:12.502 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's called, there's a line in that movie where one of the characters says, I feel like I'm running a daycare with someone I used to date. 43:14.065 --> 43:15.406 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, wait. 43:15.907 --> 43:16.367 [SPEAKER_01]: Sit it again. 43:16.727 --> 43:20.570 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm running a daycare with someone I used to date. 43:21.251 --> 43:21.531 [SPEAKER_01]: That. 43:21.651 --> 43:24.553 [SPEAKER_01]: And it set off a bomb in me is when I, when I were full. 43:24.573 --> 43:24.773 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 43:24.913 --> 43:30.898 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think so many of us, particularly in the younger, you know, the hard driving years of younger kids. 43:31.178 --> 43:31.398 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 43:31.818 --> 43:34.060 [SPEAKER_01]: You are going to be running a daycare with somebody who used to date. 43:34.140 --> 43:36.462 [SPEAKER_01]: Unless, unless you date them. 43:36.982 --> 43:38.022 [SPEAKER_01]: unless you keep dating them. 43:38.382 --> 43:47.005 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we would, we set up this Wednesday night, day night years ago to say, despite the chaos, despite that neither of us feel like it actually, we're going to try to find each other. 43:47.405 --> 43:49.505 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's as specific as I'll really get. 43:49.625 --> 43:53.807 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what it is, mostly is just a rhythm of trying to find each other. 43:54.647 --> 43:57.227 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that's actually going out to dinner rarely. 43:57.908 --> 43:58.528 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually we're just 43:59.468 --> 44:21.183 [SPEAKER_01]: maybe having glass of wine and sitting on the couch or maybe like having like a dessert together like of course I'm always hoping that we'll have sex and usually we are finding sex on a date night of course she's always hoping that I will actually ask her about her life and and usually we are doing that we're making time for yes you know as much as we can just to be to get send and honestly sometimes it's just we watch a movie together because we would need to relax so whether it's 44:21.683 --> 44:26.304 [SPEAKER_01]: finding relaxation together, finding physical intimacy together, finding emotional intimacy. 44:26.924 --> 44:30.825 [SPEAKER_01]: It creates a window every week to say, let's try to find it. 44:30.865 --> 44:31.465 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's try to find it. 44:31.485 --> 44:32.425 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we often fail to find it? 44:32.465 --> 44:32.806 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course. 44:33.306 --> 44:36.306 [SPEAKER_01]: But the beauty of a rhythm is that you've got lots of chances. 44:37.067 --> 44:43.028 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just want to kind of say that if you were to walk away from this episode, 44:43.748 --> 44:45.670 [SPEAKER_01]: and ask your wife out every week. 44:46.551 --> 44:49.814 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that would be probably one of the most holy things that could happen in your family. 44:50.254 --> 44:53.197 [SPEAKER_01]: And I suspect that she would like it to, I don't know, she would. 44:53.717 --> 45:03.727 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just, yes, and I'm ending to all that, because that's where we find ourselves as far as the realistic nature of what you just painted, which is, I mean, half the time we don't have the energy to go out to dinner. 45:03.787 --> 45:05.108 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we're not one to go out to dinner. 45:05.128 --> 45:07.671 [SPEAKER_00]: We're just wanting to like not have to do anything. 45:08.571 --> 45:28.813 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's so funny one of the practical things I'll say that is interesting if you do out to dinner or if you do like hang time I this is just one of those this I don't think this is TMI I just think this is like practical if there's any way you guys can talk about like sometimes intimacy is safe for the end of the night and I know for us we have like babysitters and all this stuff like you have like this tension 45:28.973 --> 45:30.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Before you go out, it's also great. 45:30.434 --> 45:32.115 [SPEAKER_00]: That was just because you got a lot more energy. 45:32.135 --> 45:33.376 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying. 45:33.396 --> 45:37.319 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just talking about like maybe pregame that stuff. 45:38.300 --> 45:39.461 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's beautiful too. 45:39.541 --> 45:41.943 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's just strategies built in, right? 45:41.983 --> 45:46.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think it's also like knowing like in this stage of life, you know, you were mentioning about Lauren, but also Elizabeth too. 45:47.547 --> 45:47.787 [SPEAKER_00]: There. 45:48.768 --> 45:53.631 [SPEAKER_00]: The stage of life is so full, I'm full on in career. 45:54.452 --> 45:59.835 [SPEAKER_00]: Elizabeth works too, but she's also full on in homeschooling and mothering in the home. 45:59.895 --> 46:09.781 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, half the time, it's like, can we just like not have to, can we just wear comfy clothes and sit on the couch and just talk, or even sometimes, can we not talk and just laugh together and watch something? 46:10.021 --> 46:10.821 [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer is yes. 46:10.982 --> 46:12.703 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, tell us what you're doing. 46:12.743 --> 46:16.165 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I just, the risk of being super redundant. 46:16.965 --> 46:20.529 [SPEAKER_01]: Just suggest thinking about this in rhythms rather than rules. 46:20.589 --> 46:22.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't have to be the same way every time. 46:23.191 --> 46:30.498 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you set up a rhythm of finding your wife once a week or trying to find each other, what you're doing is practicing the covenant. 46:30.538 --> 46:32.540 [SPEAKER_01]: You're saying that love is not a feeling. 46:33.241 --> 46:43.536 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a covenant of work that I will continue to try to love you even when in sickness and in health or for poor for less time or more time for less kids or more kids in tragedy. 46:44.838 --> 46:48.403 [SPEAKER_01]: As we're dealing with our difficulties that you commit to finding each other. 46:48.543 --> 46:57.985 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, one thing I was going to say funny enough tonight today's Wednesday when we were filming this and tonight, uh, Elizabeth and I are going out to dinner and you're going to be on our date with us. 46:58.285 --> 46:58.906 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I invited? 46:58.926 --> 47:00.026 [SPEAKER_01]: This is really special. 47:00.226 --> 47:01.726 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, originally you and I were going to dinner. 47:01.826 --> 47:04.007 [SPEAKER_00]: The Elizabeth was coming and I was like, this is kind of like our date. 47:04.067 --> 47:06.047 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, maybe you just don't say too many things. 47:06.087 --> 47:06.648 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't be too thrilled. 47:06.668 --> 47:07.488 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, remember that. 47:09.228 --> 47:15.072 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's marriage, but we have a couple more things before we get more places to bring rhythms in a couple more things. 47:16.392 --> 47:17.613 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about pause prayers. 47:17.733 --> 47:27.198 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, so we've talked about, you know, bedtime's the general idea of setting up rhythms in the household, applying it to marriage, applying it to moments of conflict and discipline. 47:27.378 --> 47:27.659 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 47:27.979 --> 47:29.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Are really in some ways the 47:31.870 --> 47:50.101 [SPEAKER_01]: center of where this matters because whether you have a toddler who's just enraged on aisle to the grocery store or a teenager who is like saying things that are really catching you off guard on a typical Wednesday evening you're like I'm supposed to be going to bed, but here you are like some big issue. 47:51.001 --> 47:54.724 [SPEAKER_01]: The fact of conflict and discipline in the household is that we are always caught off guard. 47:55.664 --> 47:56.725 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not like we didn't want 47:58.004 --> 48:01.566 [SPEAKER_01]: this moment to be like this, but here we are needing to respond to something. 48:02.206 --> 48:04.347 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is truly the realm of habit. 48:04.367 --> 48:11.731 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so many of us find ourselves snapping on our children and acting like what was done to us or like why do I do that? 48:11.751 --> 48:14.172 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do this because we are in rhythms of it. 48:14.292 --> 48:19.515 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we said in a prior episode, you know, you can't think yourself out of a pattern that you didn't think yourself into. 48:19.555 --> 48:21.696 [SPEAKER_01]: You practiced your way there, so you need to practice your way out. 48:21.976 --> 48:22.176 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 48:22.316 --> 48:25.358 [SPEAKER_01]: And habits and moments of discipline are that. 48:25.538 --> 48:26.098 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the idea of 48:27.419 --> 48:31.244 [SPEAKER_01]: How do I practice my way out of this unhealthy response to my kids? 48:32.065 --> 48:34.588 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll give you an example. 48:34.608 --> 48:38.773 [SPEAKER_01]: I lie on the anger spectrum of response. 48:38.813 --> 48:42.938 [SPEAKER_01]: I think some people, some guys are on the passive, like I'm just not going to address that. 48:43.959 --> 48:45.921 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people maybe more like me are like, 48:46.662 --> 48:47.704 [SPEAKER_01]: I am bigger than you. 48:47.724 --> 48:48.785 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm louder than you. 48:48.805 --> 48:50.747 [SPEAKER_01]: I will jack up on you. 48:52.349 --> 48:59.938 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of this comes from the nature of having four boys, where it's just like they need physical authority, they need volume in my voice literally to even hear it sometimes. 48:59.958 --> 49:01.019 [SPEAKER_01]: So some of this is natural. 49:01.620 --> 49:02.901 [SPEAKER_01]: But some of it is also just my sin. 49:02.961 --> 49:09.944 [SPEAKER_01]: I just tend to say, I'm going to behave your control, the situation, which is just the antithesis of what the Lord does to us. 49:09.984 --> 49:14.245 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he disciplines those he loves to bring us back to relationship with him. 49:14.265 --> 49:16.847 [SPEAKER_01]: He isn't control our behavior for his convenience. 49:18.167 --> 49:26.494 [SPEAKER_01]: He comes into our misbehavior and sacrifices himself through the life death and resurrection of Jesus to bring us back to him. 49:26.574 --> 49:32.539 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's willing to enter into pain in the moment for our good, just like you said, like willing the good of another. 49:33.359 --> 49:35.561 [SPEAKER_01]: And so often my memory of discipline is the opposite. 49:37.022 --> 49:40.947 [SPEAKER_01]: Just a couple months ago, we're on a ride, of course, to church of all places. 49:41.167 --> 49:44.191 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of my older sons, I'm going to try to be a little vague in this story. 49:45.933 --> 49:48.316 [SPEAKER_01]: Just decks one of my little sons. 49:48.677 --> 49:51.780 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the little guy was being annoying. 49:52.161 --> 49:52.381 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 49:52.401 --> 49:52.601 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 49:53.182 --> 49:56.826 [SPEAKER_01]: But the big guy was a lot bigger and did not respond in kind, you know. 49:57.947 --> 50:06.815 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like, you know, saw him hit him, I saw like the little kid start crying and I just turned around in like ferocious anger. 50:06.835 --> 50:11.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, with like this, if I could reach you to hit you right now, I would. 50:11.780 --> 50:21.909 [SPEAKER_00]: Part of like the father me was like I want to put so glad you said that because like that is the most visceral natural earth like that's what comes over me to like yeah, I'm going to punch you in the head for this. 50:21.949 --> 50:23.590 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean like to be super clear. 50:23.610 --> 50:28.534 [SPEAKER_01]: I have never been anything like physically abusive to end my children. 50:28.714 --> 50:29.215 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's got. 50:29.235 --> 50:31.056 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and nothing ever like that was done to me. 50:32.017 --> 50:39.284 [SPEAKER_01]: But parenting for just a couple years shows me why so many people do fall into this. 50:40.625 --> 50:41.847 [SPEAKER_01]: You can get so mad. 50:42.888 --> 50:45.510 [SPEAKER_01]: And many of us men do not know what to do with our anger. 50:46.251 --> 50:48.873 [SPEAKER_01]: And we realize that this is a lot of the typical male struggle. 50:50.975 --> 50:52.795 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm bigger and I'm stronger. 50:52.815 --> 50:54.616 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know what to do with my rage. 50:54.656 --> 50:55.836 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know to do with my anger. 50:56.516 --> 51:00.697 [SPEAKER_01]: But I know that I can shut this thing up or shut this thing down or just leave. 51:01.497 --> 51:09.699 [SPEAKER_01]: And so out of passivity or aggression, we use our superior strength to silence others or to hurt others. 51:09.779 --> 51:14.861 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can just see it like, you know, but for grace, there go I. Because I turned around and I wanted to hit this child. 51:14.881 --> 51:16.541 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to give him what he gave the other one. 51:16.561 --> 51:16.761 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 51:16.781 --> 51:18.541 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm literally thinking in this moment. 51:18.581 --> 51:20.522 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, Hey, Justin, you're the guy who 51:21.362 --> 51:24.085 [SPEAKER_01]: right, right, and talks about pause prayers. 51:25.966 --> 51:32.391 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're about to unload on your son, maybe consider taking your own advice and just praying before you enter this moment of discipline. 51:32.831 --> 51:33.212 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do. 51:33.292 --> 51:42.018 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I have a chapter in habits of the household about using prayer in moments of discipline, because like, surprise, surprise, inviting the Lord into these moments helps. 51:42.399 --> 51:42.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 51:42.719 --> 51:47.502 [SPEAKER_01]: And confessing to him before you go and address the situation, just briefly, like, and I'm really talking like brief. 51:48.303 --> 51:50.304 [SPEAKER_01]: Just saying like, Lord help, help. 51:50.544 --> 51:58.746 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if that's the extent of time and emotional energy that you have to pray before you go in a moment of discipline, that is enough to turn to him and say help. 51:59.466 --> 52:00.626 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we want to be more like him. 52:00.646 --> 52:05.967 [SPEAKER_01]: We want to be more like his graciousness and his truefulness and less like us in those moments. 52:06.768 --> 52:07.628 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I did that. 52:07.648 --> 52:12.989 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, hey, son, I'm going to part the car and let off the family to church. 52:13.769 --> 52:16.330 [SPEAKER_01]: And then why don't you and I take a little walk and we'll talk about what just happened. 52:17.634 --> 52:18.915 [SPEAKER_01]: And we did that. 52:18.955 --> 52:19.655 [SPEAKER_01]: They got out of the car. 52:20.016 --> 52:20.616 [SPEAKER_01]: I turned around. 52:20.676 --> 52:21.296 [SPEAKER_01]: We take a walk. 52:21.877 --> 52:25.599 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not know, Brooke, what I'm going to say, because I'm still mad. 52:25.719 --> 52:26.920 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know what's wise here. 52:26.980 --> 52:30.682 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like frustrated dad with kids who are hitting each other on the way to church. 52:31.683 --> 52:34.585 [SPEAKER_01]: Just like all of the rest of you out there. 52:35.085 --> 52:43.350 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's was amazing is that before I could say anything, my son turned to me in one of the most mature moments that we've now ever had. 52:44.231 --> 52:44.811 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, 52:46.905 --> 52:47.705 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry. 52:47.725 --> 52:50.146 [SPEAKER_01]: I just get so angry. 52:50.166 --> 52:55.808 [SPEAKER_01]: And I hate that I do things like this, but I don't know how to do otherwise. 52:55.828 --> 52:57.408 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to control myself. 52:58.589 --> 52:59.749 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to be like this. 52:59.789 --> 53:05.631 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm, you know, paraphrasing this moment that he gave, but it was this moment of like, I don't want this either. 53:05.651 --> 53:12.893 [SPEAKER_01]: And gosh, it was such a good conversation we had after that, because I basically turned to him with tears in my eyes and was like, 53:14.258 --> 53:15.218 [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds a lot like me. 53:15.459 --> 53:15.739 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 53:15.939 --> 53:18.140 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's exactly how I feel like right now. 53:18.180 --> 53:18.840 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah. 53:19.641 --> 53:20.521 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be like this. 53:20.621 --> 53:21.982 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be as angry as I am. 53:22.182 --> 53:22.522 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 53:22.722 --> 53:24.483 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just so mad about things. 53:24.903 --> 53:25.123 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 53:25.183 --> 53:26.264 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to hit the world. 53:26.564 --> 53:26.884 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 53:27.484 --> 53:28.445 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really like you. 53:28.625 --> 53:28.865 [SPEAKER_01]: And like. 53:29.385 --> 53:33.546 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Father and Son, we're also just brother to brother, friend, friend, friend, center to center. 53:33.566 --> 53:38.928 [SPEAKER_01]: This and I told him, this is why we need Jesus because we are so broken. 53:39.988 --> 53:41.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Us man, and you're becoming one. 53:41.609 --> 53:44.990 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want you to become an angry man who hits the world when it hurts him. 53:45.010 --> 53:46.050 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want you to do that. 53:46.450 --> 53:47.330 [SPEAKER_01]: But we need Jesus. 53:47.510 --> 53:48.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, we will become that. 53:49.011 --> 53:49.271 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 53:49.751 --> 53:52.912 [SPEAKER_01]: And what was so amazing about this moment is that here's the kicker. 53:54.258 --> 54:00.079 [SPEAKER_01]: If I had done what my instinct allowed me to do, we would have never had that conversation. 54:00.459 --> 54:00.859 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. 54:00.939 --> 54:05.320 [SPEAKER_01]: But that I paused for a moment to pray, which is the Holy Spirit's work in my life. 54:05.380 --> 54:08.801 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I've been working on this for years, just pausing brain, pausing brain, pausing brain, pausing brain. 54:08.821 --> 54:12.842 [SPEAKER_01]: It was that pause that allowed my son to say one of the most important things he ever said to me. 54:14.062 --> 54:17.883 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to say it's worth it. 54:17.963 --> 54:19.963 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth practicing 54:21.728 --> 54:26.430 [SPEAKER_01]: being like Jesus because he will honor that he will bring you to pause for a moment. 54:27.290 --> 54:34.552 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, like we said at the beginning, open up new ways that you guys can figure out the love of him and the love for each other in those moments. 54:34.572 --> 54:35.492 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a beautiful moment. 54:35.513 --> 54:40.634 [SPEAKER_01]: I think my son and I will probably build on that moment for years to come. 54:40.694 --> 54:44.675 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, remember when we talked about how we're both like this, you know, it was a beautiful gift. 54:44.936 --> 54:48.037 [SPEAKER_01]: And the Lord used the discipline of habit to get us there. 54:48.177 --> 54:49.157 [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say the 54:51.560 --> 55:05.529 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact, the way that you just said that and just the story of the power that's so convicting personally for me and how many moments I short circuit God's activity because I bring in my own power in my will. 55:05.749 --> 55:06.410 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know. 55:06.510 --> 55:06.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 55:06.990 --> 55:07.771 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for sharing that. 55:07.791 --> 55:14.115 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a very helpful perspective and I think the point is like something simple for fathers today's build-in pause press. 55:14.515 --> 55:16.697 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be working on that as well. 55:16.777 --> 55:17.997 [SPEAKER_00]: So join me in that journey. 55:18.157 --> 55:18.398 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 55:19.098 --> 55:22.180 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we have lots of moments throughout the day where we want to stop. 55:22.721 --> 55:25.763 [SPEAKER_01]: And in toddler or teen, we don't know how to respond. 55:26.143 --> 55:26.324 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 55:27.845 --> 55:28.585 [SPEAKER_01]: But the Lord does. 55:29.386 --> 55:38.873 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think asking him to be with you and your response is just seems like an obvious thing, but it's been a beautiful thing for us. 55:40.354 --> 55:43.797 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, a couple more things before we wrap today. 55:45.776 --> 55:51.739 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about the one thing that I know has been super helpful as our kids have gotten older and just the concept of bottom up versus top down. 55:52.000 --> 56:04.246 [SPEAKER_00]: Do it most of us have grown up with parents that when we have big emotions when we have big thoughts when we have, you know, big emotions when we hit the other kid, you know, those big things. 56:04.286 --> 56:05.427 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was a bottom up moment. 56:05.667 --> 56:06.488 [SPEAKER_01]: He was enraged. 56:06.808 --> 56:07.648 [SPEAKER_01]: I got enraged. 56:07.868 --> 56:08.109 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 56:08.609 --> 56:14.052 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I just wanted to respond out of my anger. 56:14.372 --> 56:14.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 56:15.092 --> 56:17.113 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, unless you want to address that, what's going on? 56:17.233 --> 56:17.754 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. 56:17.814 --> 56:30.100 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think the top down approach is what is common, you know, the, you squash the behavior, you go and you with your intensity and your life and your being, you squash the behavior, but that never produces fruit. 56:30.300 --> 56:32.421 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that from failure, time and time again. 56:32.461 --> 56:34.262 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it doesn't produce fruit, it doesn't help them. 56:34.302 --> 56:35.842 [SPEAKER_00]: They usually get even more angry. 56:36.423 --> 56:39.004 [SPEAKER_00]: And it especially does not work as your kids get older. 56:39.264 --> 56:41.345 [SPEAKER_00]: My kids are almost sixteen and thirteen and 56:42.506 --> 56:51.311 [SPEAKER_00]: My older two, and I'm telling you, there is not a moment where if I go top down, it just immediately stops any sort of relational connection. 56:51.351 --> 56:51.631 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you? 56:52.412 --> 56:56.054 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I know what you're doing, but for anybody who's wondering, what do you mean by bottom up and top down? 56:56.934 --> 57:02.278 [SPEAKER_01]: What is the, is it over being overly logical as you address what is 57:03.610 --> 57:05.871 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an embodied emotion coming up in them. 57:06.211 --> 57:09.232 [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's using top down approach. 57:09.633 --> 57:10.713 [SPEAKER_00]: Know you can't do this. 57:10.953 --> 57:12.154 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not. 57:12.694 --> 57:18.837 [SPEAKER_00]: It's shutting them down and just categorically making a command or a know we don't do that stop. 57:18.917 --> 57:21.778 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a bit like washing bottom up. 57:22.358 --> 57:23.218 [SPEAKER_00]: versus top down. 57:23.278 --> 57:26.360 [SPEAKER_00]: Bottom up is my, let me give you an example. 57:26.420 --> 57:27.720 [SPEAKER_00]: My daughter has a big emotion. 57:27.740 --> 57:29.541 [SPEAKER_00]: She's very irritated, moody. 57:30.382 --> 57:33.323 [SPEAKER_00]: And instead of me being like, hey, stop being a punk to your sister's sister. 57:33.463 --> 57:34.523 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't talk to your mom like that. 57:34.643 --> 57:35.924 [SPEAKER_00]: Like this doesn't help. 57:35.944 --> 57:36.744 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like stop it. 57:36.944 --> 57:37.124 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 57:38.305 --> 57:39.786 [SPEAKER_00]: If in that moment, I do that. 57:40.186 --> 57:43.947 [SPEAKER_00]: She will usually just get more frustrated, hurt, angry, respond even bigger. 57:44.648 --> 57:47.369 [SPEAKER_00]: But if I stop and I go, hey, sweetie. 57:48.960 --> 57:49.481 [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on? 57:49.901 --> 57:55.426 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like you're really overwhelmed and you really mad at mom and you mad at your sisters and you're kind of watching out. 57:56.067 --> 57:56.727 [SPEAKER_00]: What's up with that? 57:56.807 --> 57:57.288 [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on? 57:57.468 --> 57:57.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 57:58.048 --> 58:02.733 [SPEAKER_00]: You become curious about why they have the big behavior they're having, right? 58:02.973 --> 58:06.696 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead of just telling them not to have that behavior stop feeling that way. 58:07.397 --> 58:12.982 [SPEAKER_00]: And nine times out of ten, they get to the spot where, you know, your son got, which is 58:13.863 --> 58:14.763 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm sorry. 58:14.783 --> 58:18.584 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm feeling a lot of stress about this and I'm overwhelmed and I shouldn't have responded the way. 58:18.604 --> 58:22.425 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just really irritated, you know, and it almost resolves itself. 58:22.505 --> 58:28.926 [SPEAKER_00]: So just to simply say, if you can pause instead of with little kids, this works too, although it's a little bit different. 58:28.946 --> 58:37.987 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to use the same language, but when they're freaking out and losing it and throwing themselves on the ground, instead of saying, stop screaming, stop throwing a fit, which only makes it worse. 58:38.027 --> 58:40.348 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't listen to you have the time anyway at that point. 58:40.988 --> 58:41.729 [SPEAKER_00]: It's to get curious. 58:41.829 --> 58:43.410 [SPEAKER_00]: Why is a kid throwing you so many? 58:43.590 --> 58:44.531 [SPEAKER_00]: Have they slept today? 58:44.631 --> 58:47.133 [SPEAKER_00]: Have they overwhelmed? 58:47.173 --> 58:48.594 [SPEAKER_00]: Have they been overstimulated? 58:48.614 --> 58:49.795 [SPEAKER_00]: Have they been out of routine? 58:50.116 --> 58:54.779 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you get curious and I think why that has been still helpful. 58:55.500 --> 58:59.944 [SPEAKER_00]: Practical tool for Elizabeth and I but also for our kids is it gives us the perspective. 59:00.684 --> 59:03.266 [SPEAKER_00]: that there is a reason why these things are happening. 59:03.286 --> 59:06.487 [SPEAKER_00]: These are not just behaviors that come out of nowhere because they're trying to be punk kids. 59:06.768 --> 59:12.251 [SPEAKER_00]: They are hard figuring out feeling they're mishandling their emotions. 59:12.271 --> 59:14.172 [SPEAKER_00]: They're definitely misplacing their emotions. 59:14.792 --> 59:16.053 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's our job to teach them. 59:16.073 --> 59:21.316 [SPEAKER_00]: And most of parenting isn't punitive and tense discipline and punishment. 59:21.936 --> 59:24.578 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of it is, hey, not that way this way. 59:25.237 --> 59:25.377 [SPEAKER_03]: Mm. 59:25.557 --> 59:25.938 [SPEAKER_00]: That's good. 59:26.318 --> 59:27.679 [SPEAKER_00]: So much of parenting. 59:27.819 --> 59:28.099 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that? 59:28.239 --> 59:29.480 [SPEAKER_00]: And the majority, a.k.a.d. 59:29.520 --> 59:35.003 [SPEAKER_00]: percent of parenting is that because your kids, you've, you've instilled, like, hopefully by this point, what is right and what is wrong? 59:35.023 --> 59:36.424 [SPEAKER_00]: They know the big stuff. 59:37.164 --> 59:39.966 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it is like, hey, you know that that's not okay. 59:40.226 --> 59:48.912 [SPEAKER_01]: I like, I like the not that that way this way, because as you talk about that with the bottom up paradigm, I'm getting the feeling of it's not just looking at them and saying, hey, 59:49.994 --> 59:56.821 [SPEAKER_01]: wrong map, like look this way, it's sort of that coming alongside them, armor around them and saying, hey, I'm gonna slowly direct you. 59:56.841 --> 59:57.622 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's this way. 59:58.182 --> 01:00:07.512 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that sort of whole, is this connects to, you know, two episodes ago talking about our embodiment and how spiritual our bodies are. 01:00:07.612 --> 01:00:11.315 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is, I think your bodies are wondering, yeah, well, that too, yeah. 01:00:13.078 --> 01:00:14.179 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, this is a quick call back. 01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:14.519 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyone? 01:00:14.539 --> 01:00:15.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 01:00:15.620 --> 01:00:16.760 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll go there. 01:00:17.001 --> 01:00:24.906 [SPEAKER_01]: But addressing the fullness of their humanity to say, even to dignify them in this situation to ask, are you tired? 01:00:25.106 --> 01:00:25.686 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you hungry? 01:00:25.826 --> 01:00:26.347 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 01:00:26.387 --> 01:00:27.187 [SPEAKER_01]: Especially with little kids. 01:00:27.227 --> 01:00:28.308 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, oh, for sure. 01:00:28.488 --> 01:00:33.211 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you be giving a toddler a lecture when what they need is to be carried up to a nap? 01:00:33.571 --> 01:00:35.372 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, oh, because it feels better to us. 01:00:35.392 --> 01:00:35.993 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 01:00:36.073 --> 01:00:38.675 [SPEAKER_01]: And why would you be shouting a command at a teenager? 01:00:39.593 --> 01:00:46.916 [SPEAKER_01]: when you need to use your loving authority to put an arm around them, sit down and understand the emotion. 01:00:47.156 --> 01:00:50.478 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do not want to say, this doesn't mean you don't say no. 01:00:50.498 --> 01:00:52.399 [SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't mean you're not the authority. 01:00:52.539 --> 01:00:53.939 [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say, I was going to get to that. 01:00:54.039 --> 01:00:55.220 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all. 01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:59.041 [SPEAKER_01]: It just means you use your loving authority the way that Jesus did. 01:00:59.102 --> 01:01:08.326 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is we come into their situation and say, I am too loving and too truthful to let this go unaddressed. 01:01:09.586 --> 01:01:15.028 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm also too gentle to shame you into it or just yell you into it. 01:01:15.048 --> 01:01:16.908 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to come with you and alongside you. 01:01:17.448 --> 01:01:23.670 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe this calls back to what we said a couple minutes ago, you're going to know how to do this better than we do with your particular show. 01:01:23.690 --> 01:01:23.950 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 01:01:24.330 --> 01:01:29.432 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, you can hear our examples and be like, well, that wouldn't work with, of course, it wouldn't work because you have to know your kids. 01:01:29.712 --> 01:01:30.452 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're there parents. 01:01:30.772 --> 01:01:31.893 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, God made you 01:01:33.413 --> 01:01:34.094 [SPEAKER_01]: They're dead. 01:01:34.434 --> 01:01:37.317 [SPEAKER_01]: Not us, which is the greatest gift to you and to them. 01:01:37.397 --> 01:01:41.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you're going to have to figure that study them, figure out what it means to address them in the moment. 01:01:41.460 --> 01:01:46.885 [SPEAKER_01]: But don't just yell, don't just use your anger and your strength to shut them down. 01:01:47.406 --> 01:01:48.207 [SPEAKER_01]: Disciple them. 01:01:48.307 --> 01:01:49.187 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't just discipline them. 01:01:49.668 --> 01:01:50.268 [SPEAKER_01]: Disciple them. 01:01:50.288 --> 01:01:51.710 [SPEAKER_01]: That means coming into their moment. 01:01:51.870 --> 01:01:52.130 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 01:01:52.851 --> 01:01:53.912 [SPEAKER_00]: Bottom of versus top down. 01:01:54.712 --> 01:01:58.494 [SPEAKER_00]: Lastly, and we could go more on that, but we'll pause there with that particular one. 01:01:58.974 --> 01:02:02.436 [SPEAKER_00]: Lastly, we need to just talk because this is so important about technology rhythms. 01:02:02.876 --> 01:02:05.958 [SPEAKER_00]: As fathers, we have a certain responsibility to have technology rhythms. 01:02:06.438 --> 01:02:09.079 [SPEAKER_00]: I will also say, there's so much on this. 01:02:09.219 --> 01:02:12.961 [SPEAKER_00]: I know as an organization intentional, we do a ton of work on this. 01:02:13.001 --> 01:02:16.302 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you and your wife do a ton of work on this just an exciting step. 01:02:16.322 --> 01:02:17.223 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about in a second. 01:02:17.723 --> 01:02:25.028 [SPEAKER_00]: But technology rhythms are incredibly important and I would just say as a general principle and we will get to this but this just has to be foundational. 01:02:25.628 --> 01:02:29.470 [SPEAKER_00]: Do not ask your kids to do something that you yourself and your spouse are not doing. 01:02:31.091 --> 01:02:36.695 [SPEAKER_00]: And you cannot expect there to be a real family change unless you are doing it initiated in it and living in it. 01:02:36.775 --> 01:02:38.976 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just an uphill battle you will never win. 01:02:39.056 --> 01:02:40.918 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just a heads up. 01:02:41.078 --> 01:02:44.660 [SPEAKER_00]: It has to start with you, the parents, mom and dad, but primarily it's a father. 01:02:44.980 --> 01:02:46.121 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it starts with you. 01:02:46.141 --> 01:02:49.623 [SPEAKER_00]: It starts with your, do you have healthy digital habits? 01:02:50.303 --> 01:02:51.263 [SPEAKER_00]: What's your digital hygiene? 01:02:51.644 --> 01:02:53.805 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to have a certain level of that in your life. 01:02:53.945 --> 01:02:54.025 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 01:02:54.045 --> 01:02:54.765 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to pass it on. 01:02:54.825 --> 01:03:01.049 [SPEAKER_00]: So two things we just want to point you towards tell me really quick about this thing that you and Lauren developed called the Hingtain Movement. 01:03:01.109 --> 01:03:01.929 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a cool thing. 01:03:01.949 --> 01:03:11.494 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to talk about, you know, this, but I also think pointing you to these two resources are very important or rather they're just going to be 01:03:12.875 --> 01:03:26.940 [SPEAKER_01]: very helpful in explaining what we, what we, because we're ending on technology rhythms here, because you can't talk about rhythms and habits in the household without addressing the fact that technology has reformed what it looks like to live in a family. 01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:28.761 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's done it by habit, right? 01:03:28.821 --> 01:03:29.921 [SPEAKER_01]: It's done it by habit. 01:03:29.961 --> 01:03:31.502 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, we got to fight habit with habit. 01:03:32.862 --> 01:03:38.904 [SPEAKER_01]: Technology is changing your children, changing you, and we need counterformative rhythms to address it well. 01:03:39.465 --> 01:03:39.625 [SPEAKER_01]: So 01:03:40.445 --> 01:03:45.088 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot more we're going to talk about it for a minute here, but that's because there's resources on this. 01:03:45.148 --> 01:03:49.792 [SPEAKER_01]: So my wife, Lauren and I have been working on something called the hang-tend movement. 01:03:50.432 --> 01:03:54.075 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can go to the hang-tend movement.com and look it up. 01:03:54.295 --> 01:04:01.340 [SPEAKER_01]: It is ten technology practices for forming children in healthy use of technology. 01:04:01.960 --> 01:04:02.121 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 01:04:02.261 --> 01:04:04.162 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's divided up into three tiers. 01:04:04.342 --> 01:04:05.063 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll see it is 01:04:06.865 --> 01:04:17.447 [SPEAKER_01]: parent practices, because of what you just said, Brooke, it actually, as it turns out, really matters how we do this before we turn, but, well, can you believe it before we turn to them and say do it? 01:04:17.487 --> 01:04:22.028 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's three practices for parents, then there's three household practices. 01:04:22.548 --> 01:04:26.889 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the idea, particularly in the younger years, that you, you get to set up the household. 01:04:27.129 --> 01:04:30.210 [SPEAKER_01]: You get to define what screen time looks like and you need to own your authority there. 01:04:30.270 --> 01:04:33.510 [SPEAKER_01]: You need to think about what devices you're allowing, what time you're allowing. 01:04:33.530 --> 01:04:35.951 [SPEAKER_01]: So you'll see three technology practices for setting up the household. 01:04:36.271 --> 01:04:53.818 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but we are in a moment both our family and our nation of realizing really kind of having the epiphany for the first time that unless we do this together with other families in churches, in schools, 01:04:55.407 --> 01:05:00.108 [SPEAKER_01]: If we don't coordinate our habits, communally, it is a race to the bottom. 01:05:00.408 --> 01:05:06.969 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you can try to say to your son or daughter, hey, we're going to wait on getting an iPhone, we're going to wait on getting a smartphone, all you want. 01:05:07.450 --> 01:05:10.790 [SPEAKER_01]: But if Johnny or Sally often the sixth grade, they have one. 01:05:11.430 --> 01:05:12.010 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, guess what? 01:05:12.050 --> 01:05:12.731 [SPEAKER_01]: Two things are happening. 01:05:12.911 --> 01:05:14.151 [SPEAKER_01]: One, you're getting all the pressure. 01:05:14.191 --> 01:05:15.351 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they have one, can I? 01:05:15.691 --> 01:05:16.371 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the only one. 01:05:16.952 --> 01:05:21.853 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's portals to the adult world everywhere on the playground and then in the school. 01:05:21.913 --> 01:05:23.233 [SPEAKER_01]: And so your child's going to see 01:05:24.345 --> 01:05:30.849 [SPEAKER_01]: something wild and something crazy that, you know, you don't want, so we need to work together on this. 01:05:30.969 --> 01:05:34.712 [SPEAKER_01]: So the top tier of the hang-ten movement is communal habits. 01:05:34.772 --> 01:05:40.636 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's built around this idea of hang-ten weight until tenth grade to give your children access to smartphones and social media. 01:05:40.896 --> 01:05:43.698 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, which is a whole other conversation in and of itself. 01:05:43.958 --> 01:05:48.761 [SPEAKER_00]: And we Elizabeth and I have a conviction of our kids need to be adults before they can do social media, right? 01:05:48.781 --> 01:05:53.964 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, so you know, you probably are even a little more strict on this than than I am. 01:05:54.064 --> 01:05:56.785 [SPEAKER_00]: And some in some ways, just out of practice. 01:05:56.825 --> 01:05:59.127 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like out of just our kids are getting older. 01:05:59.287 --> 01:06:04.410 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a lot of different devices like we have devices in our home, but we were in it. 01:06:05.250 --> 01:06:09.513 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't want to deal with what we're talking about what you're saying, but yes, I'm just to give you an example, though, like 01:06:10.133 --> 01:06:20.401 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say when it comes to phones, yes, but for us, our conviction on social media is even older because we put it in the category of adult because it is an adult, you have to have an edge. 01:06:20.421 --> 01:06:22.282 [SPEAKER_00]: It's an adult world exactly. 01:06:22.342 --> 01:06:26.466 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what anyway, that sounds extreme for some, but I'm just giving heads up like different. 01:06:26.506 --> 01:06:28.787 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's helpful though to realize like 01:06:29.850 --> 01:06:32.473 [SPEAKER_01]: We probably all need to be more careful than not here. 01:06:32.913 --> 01:06:36.877 [SPEAKER_01]: We have not realized how significantly technology has been deforming us. 01:06:36.937 --> 01:06:45.245 [SPEAKER_01]: So that the hang-to-end movement is an attempt to give you some hooks for personal practices, household practices, and communal practices. 01:06:45.605 --> 01:06:49.069 [SPEAKER_01]: And probably more than anything, it's an excuse to start a conversation. 01:06:49.309 --> 01:06:50.270 [SPEAKER_01]: You can do it right now. 01:06:50.330 --> 01:06:51.811 [SPEAKER_01]: You can literally go to hang-toonmuma.com. 01:06:52.712 --> 01:07:01.019 [SPEAKER_01]: and then just send it to a friend in your church or your school or your neighborhood, you know, a parent and say, we should talk about has sync our technology rhythms. 01:07:01.260 --> 01:07:02.080 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this a free resource? 01:07:02.301 --> 01:07:02.661 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. 01:07:02.721 --> 01:07:04.042 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 01:07:04.242 --> 01:07:05.303 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a huge landing page. 01:07:05.363 --> 01:07:14.471 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a book yet, maybe one day, but it's just a landing page of ideas and it's all free and I'll stop with this because it points to y'all's resource. 01:07:15.412 --> 01:07:18.615 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the commitments is commit to communal commitments. 01:07:19.135 --> 01:07:24.016 [SPEAKER_01]: Like as an adopt adopt a rule of life in your community, how are we going to do this together? 01:07:24.036 --> 01:07:25.917 [SPEAKER_01]: Because otherwise it's a race to the bottom. 01:07:26.277 --> 01:07:31.878 [SPEAKER_01]: And you guys have a really helpful resource of creating a digital rule of life, which is basically what this prompts you towards. 01:07:31.938 --> 01:07:32.878 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, yeah. 01:07:32.918 --> 01:07:43.781 [SPEAKER_00]: And I, you know, it's a little bit more spiritual formation, language, but a lot of the same thing on our website, intentionalparents.org, you can go check out resources and it's just digital rule of life. 01:07:44.181 --> 01:07:44.761 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just a 01:07:46.081 --> 01:07:47.362 [SPEAKER_00]: a template to fill out. 01:07:47.522 --> 01:07:54.068 [SPEAKER_00]: And we basically created this resource and it's very simple on purpose. 01:07:54.629 --> 01:07:56.330 [SPEAKER_00]: But it gives you a handful of categories. 01:07:56.490 --> 01:07:58.032 [SPEAKER_00]: It gives you a handful of examples. 01:07:58.112 --> 01:08:03.877 [SPEAKER_00]: And the whole point is for you to look through and just start to spur the conversation. 01:08:04.998 --> 01:08:06.218 [SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do with TV? 01:08:06.779 --> 01:08:07.199 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it? 01:08:07.259 --> 01:08:08.219 [SPEAKER_00]: Do we do family movie night? 01:08:08.259 --> 01:08:18.502 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have a category for TV for games that I know like we've decided and I know that what I like about our differences here is you've addressed it in an actually unique way. 01:08:19.062 --> 01:08:20.443 [SPEAKER_00]: We've decided with video games. 01:08:20.483 --> 01:08:21.423 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't even like touch them. 01:08:21.523 --> 01:08:23.183 [SPEAKER_00]: We just like just give them out. 01:08:23.523 --> 01:08:24.604 [SPEAKER_00]: We have one son though. 01:08:24.904 --> 01:08:26.504 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say our son was interested in it. 01:08:26.544 --> 01:08:27.845 [SPEAKER_00]: Got kind of interested in it. 01:08:28.025 --> 01:08:29.325 [SPEAKER_00]: Then got slightly addicted. 01:08:29.445 --> 01:08:30.505 [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't like how that felt. 01:08:30.626 --> 01:08:32.006 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're like, hey, we will 01:08:33.246 --> 01:08:45.989 [SPEAKER_00]: We're actually thinking we're gonna sell this, but we're gonna give you the money to pick something that you like that's like, you get to spend whatever four, five hundred bucks on something that you love that's not technology. 01:08:46.529 --> 01:08:48.069 [SPEAKER_01]: We've been in it up in a different place. 01:08:48.409 --> 01:08:51.330 [SPEAKER_01]: My son's played video games, but I insist on doing it communally. 01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:54.531 [SPEAKER_01]: This is always multi-player. 01:08:54.811 --> 01:08:57.871 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if it's one player, they have to do it side by side so that they're engaging together. 01:08:58.251 --> 01:08:59.152 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm so afraid. 01:08:59.492 --> 01:09:00.812 [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's not the right way to put it. 01:09:01.512 --> 01:09:11.015 [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm so aware of how addictive video games are for young men, and how much it creates a problem into adulthood of whittling your life away. 01:09:11.215 --> 01:09:14.216 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, for example, it was really tricky for us. 01:09:14.356 --> 01:09:25.980 [SPEAKER_00]: This is where I love the dynamic between what you're doing, what we're doing because there are two different samples and what you're doing might make sense for people what we're doing might make sense and maybe both people don't know. 01:09:26.460 --> 01:09:29.261 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say for us, we pivoted towards that. 01:09:29.522 --> 01:09:30.822 [SPEAKER_00]: He was really motivated by that. 01:09:30.862 --> 01:09:32.483 [SPEAKER_00]: Got a really tough mountain bike and liked it. 01:09:32.763 --> 01:09:37.866 [SPEAKER_00]: And realized like, in our digital rule is like, we're not going to own video game consoles or anything. 01:09:38.006 --> 01:09:40.827 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you want to go to a friend's house and play all day, great. 01:09:41.087 --> 01:09:42.128 [SPEAKER_00]: Go hard. 01:09:42.188 --> 01:09:43.868 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can play video games. 01:09:43.908 --> 01:09:48.711 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the other caveat is he has some a few games that we've said are okay on an iPad. 01:09:48.751 --> 01:09:50.712 [SPEAKER_00]: So he has two hours on Saturday. 01:09:50.772 --> 01:09:53.253 [SPEAKER_00]: Then he gets to just go hard on video games and then after that he's done. 01:09:53.413 --> 01:09:53.753 [SPEAKER_00]: That's good. 01:09:53.773 --> 01:09:56.055 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it doesn't seem to really bother him. 01:09:56.275 --> 01:10:00.958 [SPEAKER_00]: But we only had one son and our daughter, who's almost three years younger, was not interested at all. 01:10:00.998 --> 01:10:04.440 [SPEAKER_00]: So this whole idea, laying together, or even mutual interest, right? 01:10:04.460 --> 01:10:05.521 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't even there. 01:10:05.841 --> 01:10:06.141 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course. 01:10:06.181 --> 01:10:08.923 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we had a different problem. 01:10:08.963 --> 01:10:14.687 [SPEAKER_00]: If I had four boys, and they all wanted to play, and they all had that same kind of energy, I'm sure we would do a different. 01:10:14.927 --> 01:10:17.648 [SPEAKER_00]: But the digital rule of life is a free work, resources, as well. 01:10:17.708 --> 01:10:21.311 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just simply to start categorizing what are we going to view. 01:10:22.011 --> 01:10:31.996 [SPEAKER_00]: And it just says, if you have a rule of life around how you spend money, time, energy, rhythms, basically, this is a way for you to create, how do we interact with technology as a family? 01:10:32.376 --> 01:10:33.337 [SPEAKER_00]: When do we use phones? 01:10:33.357 --> 01:10:33.977 [SPEAKER_00]: When do we not? 01:10:34.537 --> 01:10:40.921 [SPEAKER_00]: We go all the way to the extent of like devices are never supposed to be, aren't, are never allowed in bathrooms or rooms of the door closed? 01:10:41.281 --> 01:10:42.802 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, just, we spell all that out. 01:10:43.002 --> 01:10:45.003 [SPEAKER_01]: Our family leaves devices outside. 01:10:45.043 --> 01:10:49.165 [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the, um, the hang-ton household practices is keep devices in public places. 01:10:49.345 --> 01:10:49.665 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. 01:10:49.765 --> 01:10:50.505 [SPEAKER_00]: Parents and children. 01:10:50.525 --> 01:10:51.346 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:10:51.746 --> 01:10:55.007 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, all to say, that's the resource. 01:10:55.687 --> 01:10:59.908 [SPEAKER_00]: And even today, like, I think your your fatherhood needs your intentionality. 01:10:59.988 --> 01:11:00.709 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, let's go. 01:11:01.409 --> 01:11:07.171 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think at the end of the day, like this conversation today is it's really to just hopefully give you some real handlebars on like 01:11:07.751 --> 01:11:08.511 [SPEAKER_00]: What does it look like? 01:11:08.611 --> 01:11:17.114 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, if you've heard all of these stories, all of the ones today were from places for Justin and I, that have been, these are, has not come from strengths. 01:11:17.134 --> 01:11:18.154 [SPEAKER_00]: They were messed up. 01:11:18.234 --> 01:11:19.094 [SPEAKER_00]: Best got better. 01:11:19.354 --> 01:11:19.574 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:11:19.754 --> 01:11:23.015 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're in the spot where it's like messed up, try this. 01:11:23.055 --> 01:11:24.476 [SPEAKER_00]: If it doesn't work, try the other stuff. 01:11:24.516 --> 01:11:25.636 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you don't have to stick here. 01:11:26.036 --> 01:11:29.917 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just to say like the best thing to do is to take initiative to try. 01:11:30.337 --> 01:11:35.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And whether that's a bedtime liturgy, whether that is pause, prayers, whatever it is, 01:11:36.899 --> 01:11:47.632 [SPEAKER_00]: take it and run with it be intentional with your wife, be intentional with your kids because you, fathers not only will like just begin to see your family flourish, you yourself will flourish. 01:11:48.052 --> 01:11:48.373 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 01:11:49.053 --> 01:11:56.202 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is a great place to land it because we've given people a lot of rhythms, you know, bedtime liturgies, date nights, pause prayers, technology rhythms, 01:11:58.575 --> 01:12:01.358 [SPEAKER_01]: And this you need to know this is a menu of options. 01:12:01.778 --> 01:12:02.058 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:12:02.138 --> 01:12:11.607 [SPEAKER_01]: And that you need to like do it differently than we do it you have you have permission but but you should know this the core idea is that your family is already unfolding in rhythms you have habits you have responses. 01:12:12.628 --> 01:12:14.930 [SPEAKER_01]: So be intentional about choosing them on purpose. 01:12:15.270 --> 01:12:17.212 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean perfection lot of our. 01:12:18.393 --> 01:12:23.479 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of our rhythms as we discuss are coming out of our own brokenness, but it does matter, it matters. 01:12:24.099 --> 01:12:30.746 [SPEAKER_01]: So as we always say, these rhythms won't change God's love for you, but God's love for you should change your rhythms. 01:12:31.287 --> 01:12:32.288 [SPEAKER_01]: So go be intentional now.