[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to grow the reach, revenue, and impact of your learning business, you're in the right place.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Celisa Steele.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Jeff Cobb, and this is the leading learning podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are a leader navigating change, shift the expectations or questions about your organization's identity and future, this episode is for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether you work in an association or another kind of learning business, chances are you've felt the weight of uncertainty and are looking for a way forward that's both grounded and strategic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our guest for this episode, number four hundred and fifty-eight is Lowell Apple Bomb, CEO of Vista Cova, and a previous guest on the leading learning podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lowell works with association leaders and boards on visioning, governance, and strategy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he brings a thoughtful, deeply human approach to the challenges facing organizations today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lowell talks about how identity has to come before strategy.
[SPEAKER_00]: How you can't lead effectively if you're unclear on who you are as an organization.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also talks about bravery and stability about showing up with conviction even in volatile times.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not all high-level philosophy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lowell also shares practical advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: He talks about how to structure board agendas, how to equip volunteer leaders, and how to rethink learning design, so it's not just rigorous and content, but meaningful and experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also get into empathy, curiosity, and AI, and we wrap up with Lowell's perspective on lifelong learning both professionally and personally.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot in here, so let's get to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the conversation with Lowell Applebaum.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I think about the world right now, it seems like we're continuing to be served up a lot of uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got political uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got economic uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got a lot happening in the tech realm with AI.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm curious to know, what do you see as some of the most pressing implications of this moment when you think about the work that associates
[SPEAKER_00]: do and maybe also other learning businesses, you know, and just from that strategic standpoint of kind of what it means to do their work and exist in this world of uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to parse uncertainty into sort of two frames because I think in the early twenty twenties with the onset of COVID and what that did to our
[SPEAKER_02]: rate of change, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That, that unto itself caused an uncertainty, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: There was forced innovation that had to happen if you were going to adapt to survive through the time, a terrible time of challenge, but also that time of challenge, the forced adaptation gave us some base level of skill sets.
[SPEAKER_02]: for an organizational standpoint of how to be more adaptive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, at least from one working with organizations, whether it's through the idea of a changing generation of learning context or overall organizational direction, that rate of change.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not like we're five years into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even before that was moving quickly, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's an uncertainty that comes with, we need to be able to quickly
[SPEAKER_02]: adapt, perhaps not who we are, but how we are living, who we need to be, that we've had a handful of years to come up to speed, whether not organizations have embraced doing so, being quicker in that adaptation, in the face of uncertain times.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I'd point out, I mean, it's timely having this conversation, is this year's been interesting because
[SPEAKER_02]: The uncertainty of an ever-increasing rate of change has now intersected this year with volatility.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I mean by that is that even as things developed in change, right new technology, I'd say some of those bedrock places of foundation and stability that were the basis upon which organizations and their leadership could base their conversation and their projection has really been shaken.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether you look at that through the lens of threats to non-profit tax status and having to potentially have corporate tax rates on membership and learning and everything, whether you look at that to ramp-funded organizations and what that's done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether you look at that too, so many of my beloved scientific organizations and what that
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, I picked the things that were tried to test it.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you live in DC, how many people thought they were safe in their jobs for the rest of their lives?
[SPEAKER_02]: How many of your colleagues and friends and family?
[SPEAKER_02]: are now experiencing job of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So uncertainty, I think are sort of we're at the intersect of these two contexts.
[SPEAKER_02]: So right, we're at the intersect of a society that now is experiencing rapid evolution, shift and change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're doing so now in this time in age, that that has not slowed.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the pieces, the bedrock of stability that perhaps gave us a place to stand to navigate that are teetering.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you know any change management theory, sort of you know the slope that changes hard because when you experience change, you experience loss, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The loss of stability of what you once knew was true, the abandonment of the processes that brought you success.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have to like come out the other side of seeing like wins and returns that the change was worth it until you build a new platform of stability that like whatever you change to now is better is working.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the long way around to get to the answer to your question, which is, what is the opportunity I see in this moment for our organizations is that the tragedy of find those places to create even if it's short-term stability, right short-term bed rocks of knowledge, of convening, of community that together, there's a greater whole, that through volatility and uncertainty, there is still stability in who our profession is, who our community is,
[SPEAKER_02]: And perhaps the work we have to do has to change, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The problems we have to address our priority are still needed to be navigated.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if we have clarity on our identity, then I have a deep-seated belief that the nonprofit organizations that we serve are actually the beacons of hope and light in a time of universal uncertainty that can gather people, gather industries, gather professions together to navigate that certainty through the strength of unity in community.
[SPEAKER_00]: part of what you're saying there does make me think about the fact that when you were on the podcast last, that was not too long after COVID had hit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the points you were making was around the need to shift from the crisis mindset and sort of dealing with the immediate upheaval and uncertainty to a strategic mindset, which of course still fills very relevant in this moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm thinking, well, eh, do you agree that there's sort of still needs
[SPEAKER_00]: In this moment, there is still a need to shift from crisis to strategy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if so, then kind of, what does that look like practically?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are some of the ways to maybe get to some of that bedrock that you were talking about in your answer to that last question?
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that there is still a continual need for strategic mindset.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that what that means for this moment in time has a different lens from least my point of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: A strategic mindset for where we are in the mid-twenties heading towards the late-twenties means two or three critical pieces.
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one is a clear, crisp understanding of identity before you get to strategy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And from an identity perspective, what I'm talking about there is that if you take a group of leaders and say in the sentence or two, what makes this organization unique in what it brings to community and society, either cause what it can do that no one else can, or what it does better than anyone else, that makes a positive impact for its community and for society.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you make them do that in the context of what would that have been ten twenty thirty years ago?
[SPEAKER_02]: What is that today?
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that need to be in five to ten years?
[SPEAKER_02]: The articulation of identity of especially a present to future gives a few will sort of a core basis upon which you can build strategy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, a volatile and uncertain world should not change your identity.
[SPEAKER_02]: It should change how you utilize that identity and impact that you make and what you advance.
[SPEAKER_02]: by a found a muddying of the waters, then the face is so much uncertainty that identity is based off of past instead of future focus context.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I use that as one lens of strategy, of a strategic mindset, and the other is this balance of a place of, as I referred to earlier, being able to put in places of stability, like, what can you depend on us for?
[SPEAKER_02]: No matter what happens, what will we be here for?
[SPEAKER_02]: as well as a place of bravery, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If truly you are driven by mission and look, money drives mission organizations need to have political relationships to advance mission, there's many factors of what you need.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the ostrich philosophy of let's hide our head in the sand and hopefully these things pass by is simply going to lead to you drowning in the sand, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so where do organizations, if they are clear and they're identity, choose bravery to be the voice and the standpoint to be the champion of their mission of their purpose?
[SPEAKER_02]: To do so in a way that hopefully is a place of unification, recognizing there's many diverse parts of their community, and they have to be the platform that bedrock for all of those.
[SPEAKER_02]: But those places of unity should be places that they are loud, proud, and the leading voice of.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a strategic mindset for the place we are in the mid-twenties has a clarity of identity, has recognition of where we bring stability to our community,
[SPEAKER_02]: has the bravery to be the strongest voice to champion purpose and mission and the ability to convene and bring together build bonds between the community that is going to rally around that purpose and that mission in a way that in the world we're all too divided our organizations or places of strength together.
[SPEAKER_00]: the looking back and then looking at the current moment and then looking forward I really like that because it helps I think you know a group of leaders or those involved to sort of see the evolution and how that does shift slightly over time and then gives you that maybe the permission or the ability to think about the future and really imagine where we might go from the present moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think part of what's on my mind is just like, if this is a group of people and this idea of coming to a shared identity, I mean, it seems like that can be somewhat messy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what does that look like to actually get to agreement around this is our identity?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what people can count on us for so that then we can speak with this loud, proud voice about what the work that we do and how we're going to serve.
[SPEAKER_00]: So talk a little bit about just how multiple voices come to coalesce around an identity and what that looks like in practice.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the opposite of messy, and if you're talking about neat, has to it a finale, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like everything is neat, order and structure in its box, then you have a hard time moving things to a new structure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think you need a little bit of messiness, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But the messiness I would think of is the mindset of the identity of an organization has clarity, but maliability for a continual evolution.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that means that inherently leadership has to be emboldened, strengthened, recognized the obligation and trained to really be champions so that the identity of the organization and how it embodies its community is not something done to the community but with the community.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that means as we think about sort of the duties we look to our leadership to fulfill,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a primary one that has really emerged that we don't do the job that we should in terms of training our volunteer leaders to be this.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we think about them being champions of the organization, is there needs to be a continual place of effort and proactive outreach for dialogue and input with the many components and pieces of a community, not that it's the loudest voice changes direction, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you always get sort of the bell curve of like the loudest voice is the one and the loudest voice the other.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that there is a continuum dialogue in a place of input, right, a place of what are the trends, the themes, the perspectives that we're hearing, how do we, as an organization, steer not from our place of purpose and mission and like turn ninety degrees, but navigate like what makes our unique identity true,
[SPEAKER_02]: through the waters of what we're hearing as like the challenges that are being experienced.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's where you get the messiness, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The continual evolution of the solution, design and application to ever shifting challenges without losing the identity.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've often talked about strategy and a lot of people talk about strategy in terms of really that it's a framework to help make decisions, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you wrestle with sort of collective decision-making around what is the right decision based on the strategy?
[SPEAKER_02]: A strategic framework is a good reference point if you want to point to it in terms of decision-making.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's meaningless if you haven't incorporated it into practical ways of how you're living it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that there's a multi-tier incorporation that has to infuse the organization if it's something that's actually going to guide the organization.
[SPEAKER_02]: The concept that, you know, if I'm designing ideal board agendas, you have like ten to fifteen percent of the time is consent agenda with all the
[SPEAKER_02]: No one got on the board because they want committee reports read at that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I get all that stuff done there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the forty to fifty percent about the business of the organization.
[SPEAKER_02]: The idea that those things are directly correlated back to has this connect to what we set our strategic focus and priorities and things we're trying to achieve.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are things that are business of the organization that don't correlate to those things that become glarely obvious if that's part of your routine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and so that direct correlation onto itself creates a fluency of leadership that where we invest our resources is designed to connect to what we said is the critical places we need to focus.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think there's sort of an answer to the responsibility, therefore.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, there's a twenty-five to thirty percent piece of that agenda left for generative and futurist conversation of from all these conversations, what's coming that may need to shift some of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that it's just one piece of it, at least, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that if you really want to see strategy gotten an organization, besides a direct integration with how leaders spend their time in agendas,
[SPEAKER_02]: How is every committee of an organization's charge refreshed every real Phoenix philosophy that I believe every committee should be sunset every strategy cycle, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you re birth the ones that you need demanded by operational strategic priority with charges that directly align to those strategic operational priorities with what they're trying to achieve, correlate it to that with clear like many strategic plans.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we going to achieve this year?
[SPEAKER_02]: What's our scope of work there?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that their work can be celebrated for the achievements, but the story of strategic advancement from this framework is not that just of the central organization, it's every arm of the organization, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The committees, the same thing with the components or the chapters, the task.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you see is a really a hub and spoke model of strategy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That the strategy itself guides the organization
[SPEAKER_02]: as an absolute of identity, but as a valuable place that the many hands contribute to how it advances.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think from there, sort of the singular framework of we make decisions based on our strategy,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think before you started from a place of uncertainty, you have to recognize that if you are any organization that experiences efforts in the advocacy realm, in the learning realm, in grant-making realm, the world we're talking right now from the world nine months ago, it does not look the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't however think that that means framework that
[SPEAKER_02]: design what we're trying to accomplish, our necessarily immune.
[SPEAKER_02]: It may have shifted how we accomplish it, it may shift what groups we need to accomplish it, it may shift how we communicate it, it may shift who you can mean and how we can be.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think part of what you're talking about with who we convene, how we convene, we do the work to me that feels related to an importance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you place on things like empathy and listening and curiosity because that's part of how we're going to sort of diagnose in the moment what needs to actually happen and how we can.
[SPEAKER_00]: serve the community we've set out to serve.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess just talk a little bit about things like empathy and listening their role in an organization strategy and potentially even how one might operationalize something like empathy if that doesn't already sound like a contradiction to operationalize.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the three books I'm writing right now, the one that's my favorite is one that's titled Curiosity Driving Mission.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just for, I mean, play with me in the sandbox if you will for a moment of the space of an organizational mindset and framework that was driven by curiosity and how that would have to change how we function.
[SPEAKER_02]: Curiosity inherently means that we, all of us, need humility that what we know today is insufficient, like we are continually looking to expand perspective and horizon.
[SPEAKER_02]: because curiosity means exploration.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what does that mean for leadership?
[SPEAKER_02]: That when you get elected or selected for a critical role of the organization, much less an officer role, it's not because your wisdom is sufficient.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not because your experience and the length of your CV is all that's needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like a curiosity-driven organization is going to select leaders that all the more so are seeking
[SPEAKER_02]: the many voices that will continue to enhance.
[SPEAKER_02]: Staff driven, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if we think about that as lens and context, what is the difference?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think about customer service and experience of what we're trying to provide for our community?
[SPEAKER_02]: From a curiosity drive and mindset of, yeah, password reset.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's your answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what else are your curious about?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what else should we know so we could serve you better?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are we pro-actually reaching out so we can understand the experience you're having?
[SPEAKER_02]: how a curiosity mindset shifts that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in our communities, you know, you talk about empathy.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we were more interested in hearing others' voices than hearing our own.
[SPEAKER_02]: How would that shift the sessions we put on, the learning we design, the meetings we can being, the communities that we create, and the opportunities we provide for every single member to actually have deeper set relationships with one another, because what we're trying to introduce to them is that, yes, we need your shared wisdom, your individual lived experiences contributed.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the opportunity you have is not in those contributions, it's what you hear from one another's.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the relationships that's going to move forward, the stronger community we're going to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: A curiosity mindset that becomes part of the cultural foundation of an organization demands empathy because
[SPEAKER_02]: you're in the service of another and hearing what they bring to you, and there's a care for someone who's bringing you insight and willing to share of themselves with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if we think about powerful organizations that are able to rally many voices behind causes, it's because that there's a driving need, but there's also a community that sees in one another connection and a greater coherence.
[SPEAKER_02]: that comes from an empathetic we're going through something together and we will get through this together if we are together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like them for us on curiosity and I think there's also the benefit for the individual, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I know that personally, if I'm curious about my work, then that tends to mean I'm more interested.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm more engaged, you know, it's not just sort of the checking things off that to do list, it's me actually really enjoying the work that goes into doing whatever task is at hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking to association CEOs and we're talking about the role of learning kind of broadly and education more specifically in their organizations value proposition.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, you know, you're not in association CEO yourself, but I know you work with many and work with boards.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I would just love to get your perspective on sort of how
[SPEAKER_00]: often you hear learning and education come up as an aspect of that overall association value proposition.
[SPEAKER_00]: What role you see a play?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, nine times that attendance, one of the strategic pieces of identified sort of priority and identity of an organization.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think there's a real universality there in terms of what organizations and nonprofit associations bring to the table that once someone has finished with their formal education, but needs to be continued to learn to get better in their career.
[SPEAKER_02]: The role that associations have played and have the potential to continue to play in terms of supporting a workforce.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I unfortunately see that goes in tandem with that, though, is that the learning approach and methodology and even many times the platforms that are being presented are based off of what learning has been in terms of more modern and current, not just theory, but application of how adults learn.
[SPEAKER_02]: If what we are looking for any sort of upholding of certification is credit units,
[SPEAKER_02]: then if I can sign in for a webinar, have a playing on my third screen, like answer five true false questions at the end that these organization lets me answer as many times as possible until I get it right.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to assume best in tension, hope that they're learning, but let's be honest, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not a lot of rigor there and not necessarily a lot of learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And look, there can be great rigor in the quality of the content.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, that is where organizations traditionally were used to shine.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we bring a rigor to the content we are providing, we have fulfilled our obligation of bringing best in class learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would posit that is insufficient for what is needed for workforce development in the world today.
[SPEAKER_02]: You do not need less rigor in the quality of your content.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying diminish that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But in terms of the experience of the content, in terms of the acknowledgement of the modal learning that different learners need, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the idea and this time strapped time that people are able to dedicate a full hour versus having can things be broken down to smaller bytes and segments so they can do sprint learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was talking with one organization whose members often go back and take MBAs and they were talking about some of the programs emerging that you can do literally all the learning for your MBA on your phone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like listening to lectures, answering the things on your phone, like you don't need a computer.
[SPEAKER_02]: The idea of a, like not just a certification or a certificate, but a degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: That concept of like meaning the learner where they are at is a gap that I don't see as many organizations as I would like adapting to.
[SPEAKER_02]: In part because you have many of those in leadership that went through tried and true traditional methods of learning and so that's the context they have for what learning looks like, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The tolerance for a sub-par learning experience
[SPEAKER_02]: regardless of the quality and rigor of the content, there's less tolerance for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so organizations have chief learning officers that think not only about the rigor, but about the design and the experience, or has entails a head of those that only think about the rigor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you've begun to talk about it some, you know, with things like the MBA that you can do completely on your phone or sort of the need to evolve and look at the different modes and ways that we can engage learners.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you think about kind of learning that's happening now and what associations can do to serve those learners, you know, are there particular
[SPEAKER_00]: changes that maybe you haven't talked about that come to mind or issues that you see that sort of our hampering, you know, individuals, ability to learn, which of course then opens up the opportunity for association to help address some of those those issues that might be hampering learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the one that's not new but still not done well.
[SPEAKER_02]: is to really help learners right size the level of the content to the level of their knowledge experience in career.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: The idea that someone who is five years into their career versus fifteen versus twenty five versus thirty five, they have a different inherent potential learning place depending on what the nature of the content is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: The need to set a baseline of introduction is needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so organizations, I've seen more of them try to be like this as introductory or advanced, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's been some effort to it, but what I do not see is the fall through that actually holds the instructor accountable to what they say the level of their content is.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's one place that I think there's an opportunity.
[SPEAKER_02]: The second, if I'm being very blunt and I apologize to my many meeting professional friends out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: is stadium seating in learning settings is terrible, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the rows of sitting cramped in, so you have socrates at the front, giving you their wisdom that you are going to absorb through osmosis.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless there's never a place for it, like I understand in keynote, but that as default puts so many barriers in the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: of actually having the space to be creative, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The only person you be in dialogue is who's at my shoulders, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The only place to actually capture or create or write or draw or write is whatever I can balance on my lab.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no space to actually be an active learner when you're at those sessions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Third, I would say, is that there is a difference between a subject matter expert, and there is a difference between someone who is a learning expert that understands the many modes of designs of learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a difference if someone who's a learning expert in a virtual environment, and is rare to find one person that does all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'd actually say, as for none of them are negatives, you don't have the other pieces, but the truth is, you want all the pieces if you're really thinking about the holistic learning experience,
[SPEAKER_02]: And so how organizations are trying to explore in their learning design, the recognition of the strengths of who they're bringing to the table, and to supplement those who don't have those strengths, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If we care more about this being a workshop, and so it's really about the learning design and experience, we need the content to be rigorous, but can we have someone who's an expert in learning design and supplement them with someone who can provide them with the data, the facts, the knowledge, the research they could design often?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, we have this is more of an intensive learning about content.
[SPEAKER_02]: We still want some good activity in thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we give the subject matter expert a learning consultant to just help frame and how to shape the actual class, and maybe to facilitate some pieces of it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a real opportunity for organizations to think about the holistic learning experience and these different competencies of what you want designed to supplement the sessions you create, not assuming that one person has everything that you need.
[SPEAKER_02]: but that the organization takes on the responsibility of giving them the structure they need to design the best learning experience possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you seeing or thinking about in terms of AI?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that my answer today will take me different three months later, nine months later, and two years later.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I'd say right now is that when I am running sessions, the frame that I try to give to those in my sessions, I'll be clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, every session is a learning session.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like strategic planning is actually a classroom, and all you're constructing is a place for the learners to also be teachers so they can learn from one another, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you use the mindset that every session you do, right, is an opportunity for learning as a classroom, whether or not you state it that way, then AI is
[SPEAKER_02]: both a tool that can help enhance the learning experience as well as potential another learning contributor, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think the frame is where do you incorporate like AI capacity and capability to supplement the learning experience so that someone who wants to express something but doesn't have the right words?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I say, all right, give me three or four ways to express this idea, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That if you're thinking about a collaborative learning moment, the group can come up with like, what do you think, what do you think, what do you think AI?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is the collective of this look like together?
[SPEAKER_02]: That there's not a deferment of the responsibility of ideation or of conclusion-making to AI, but it's sort of at the table with you for a place of input and refinement and possibility.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it expands, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what you can potentially think about.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think really where AI comes in from a place of expanding perspective, refining possibility for directions.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's not the abandonment of the human ideation nor the human sort of assessment and refinement and conclusion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's in that middle piece that when it comes to learning, at least from my perspective right now, sort of AIs added strongly, strongness, and then active learning setting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd say in a separate learning setting, if you look at chat should be tea today and use its deep research button function, there's a whole lot of possibility there in terms of clicking that on and say, here's the topic I'm about to do a session on, deep research, like give me a whole bunch of background sources.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to check them, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But you want like twenty different citations about the curiosity mindset and how it's impacting nonprofit organizations.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't tell me that it doing that in five minutes, coming back, that I can't scan those articles, like these three would be good pre-reads.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's not gonna enhance my session, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's possibilities and preparation there as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's possibilities and confinement at the end, give me some different, we have a twenty different vision missions, like what would be the different places?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say that as a high level though,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a caution, but for a certainly current capacity, I do find that AI is better in an analytical than an aspirational space.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're trying to come up with citations and data, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're trying to access the Gigiian different references out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're trying to take ideas and synthesize and come out with possibilities, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there logic to this and give me different places?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like those analytical directions?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think AI is a great tool for.
[SPEAKER_02]: This concept is incredibly important and we want to make sure the next generation coming into our profession not only understand the concept of fuel inspired by it because the concept is going to be one that potentially gets them to decide that this is the profession for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I find there is less expertise at this moment for the empathy for the emotional element that the AI will still produce that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't see what it's producing to have as much heart as it has rain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me a little bit about how you approach your own lifelong learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: The most important thing in my life to me are my children.
[SPEAKER_02]: By nature, I'm a lifelong learner, but I'm a big believer that the example that we set is at least going to be a memory upon which future generations make decisions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so learning both feeds my, well, doesn't just feed my brain, it feeds my soul, but it's also as much as I feel like the work I do is my dedication and investment to building a better world for my children to inherit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe the learning I do is the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, finishing a degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had friends and family tell me I was not allowed to start another for at least twelve to eighteen months.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm on my mandatory hiatus period.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a few different paths.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I continue to seek structured learning because I find whether it's a certificate or a certification's not about the letters, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But one off learning for me is just for me like
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't leave as much as a memory, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be good for a singular skill set acquisition, but in terms of shaping my mindset, shaping my intent, like structured learning with segments and accomplishment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I look for what certificate of certification and programs would align to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a continual LinkedIn who's posting what and who's learning why and how should I think about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Degree is always out there, but I'll say, you know, being in a doctoral program for three or four years, I'm a voracious reader as are all the members of my family.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for three or four years, my reading was pretty much towards the doctoral program.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I got out of the doctoral program.
[SPEAKER_02]: My brain was like, feed me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I read probably between seven to nine books a month and listen to two or three.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm on a flight every week.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm a big believer in sacred spaces, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like saying good morning to my kids, saying good night every night in from out of board dinner or sacred spaces.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I leave the board dinner for fifteen to thirty minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like these are things that will not be touched.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, take off some landings and flights or sacred spaces for reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not for working, they're not for watching things, they're for reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that influx for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I struggle a little bit with like audio book versus podcast because I love both and fluctuate back and forth there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for me, it's this balance of I always am between four to eight books at a time that are out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I have the book or two or podcasts or two of listening to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually if it's gone thirty days, so that may be some kind of like small structured learning.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to find another one.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, can't sleep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me work on this a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then always just the playing with the thought of like, what's the next degree?
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, not for again, not for more letters, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But because, I don't know, as humans, if we're not growing, we're atrophy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and so it's important that my kids see that learning is lifelong and it's important for my own health, as much as exercise is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think exercise for your wisdom, your intelligence and your perspective is just as important, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Muscles grow because you stretch them.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not only true of your physical muscles.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not done quite yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep listening for our recap.
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll find show notes in a transcript at leadinglearning.com slash episode four, five, eight along with links to connect with Lowell, Apple One, and learn more about Vista Cova.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you got value from this episode, we'd appreciate it if you'd share it with a colleague or leave a rating or review that helps others find the show and it supports the work we do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we end, let's hit a few of the big takeaways from the conversation with Lowell.
[SPEAKER_01]: First, strategy has to start with identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know what makes your organization unique and why that matters, you're going to have a hard time navigating change with purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: and speaking of change, low emphasized the role of curiosity and empathy, both in how organizations learn and in how leaders lead.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those qualities help create space for dialogue, for evolution and for community.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you also challenged the idea that rigor and content is enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: As learning businesses, we need to be thinking about design, experience and engagement too, not just the information we're delivering.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like the metaphor that he used muscles grow because you stretch them and that's not only true of physical muscles.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a good reminder that learning isn't always easy, but it is essential.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening and see you next time on the Leading Learning podcast.