[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lorehouse podcast where the Lorehounds your guides to psychohistory.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is our coverage of foundation on Apple TV+.
[SPEAKER_02]: Season three episode two.
[SPEAKER_02]: Shadows in the math.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to get in contact with us, send an email to empire at the Lorehounds.com or head to our Discord server from the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you like what you've heard, you want to support us or get ad-free and bonus content, check out the same link trio in our show notes for our Patreon and Supercast subscription options.
[SPEAKER_00]: Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: John.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're back.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're back with another episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want to head this time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now I can really speculate.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't either.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you were a good both time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I won't make it this time.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're always good, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about your thoughts on this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I noticed a lot more book references in this one, which I felt very interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, maybe it's just because I've been recently rereading them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So more is familiar to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they seem to be healing closer to the storylines than they were in, of course, season one.
[SPEAKER_02]: They had to set up all the new stuff they were doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now it's very interesting to see what they're keeping and what they're altering of what they're keeping.
[SPEAKER_02]: and how they're altering it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really like it, but I realize there may be some people that are not happy with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we'll see.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, by the way, I'm reading foundation and Empire right now and I just got to the part.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting by next week by the time we record next, I think I'll be able to talk more fully about foundation and Empire.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, that is course where a lot of this is picking up from now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're focused on part two because it's the book split up into two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Part two of foundation and empire is really the focus of this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Seems that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, go on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, such creativity still.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just really so fun to see the things they come up with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although there's one or two that I have caveats with, which I will mention in the following program.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love the little conundrum they present is, so I have to ask you, John, did you see the missing belly button?
[SPEAKER_00]: I will, I did not.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll come to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, bring it up when it comes up in the blood.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will definitely do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're doing a really good job.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think with handling the multiple threads, you know, they have like three or four different plot lengths when you once.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so far, I've liked where they've transitioned.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've liked how they've woven things in.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it'll be interesting to see how they continue to weave these things together, although again, in this episode, there is one significant piece of evidence of that at the very end, which we talk about when we get there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was a rather unexpected development to me, but from a book perspective, it was kind of satisfying.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're talking about the ending, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what about you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I too was really taken by surprise with that ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really liking them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You old.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is a very interesting character.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you didn't like the brutality of him in the first one, and I can agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a little much, but I think in this episode, it really showed that like, one, he's not going to just waste people for no reason, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And in general, maybe the first episode he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you could make a case that he did, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: He, but he's really interesting the way here he shows like, I don't want to expend all this effort.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can, I can make you feel like you're part of this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that fascists regimes you all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also something that abuse partners do, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Just trying to make you get your hands dirty so that you feel like you're in,
[SPEAKER_00]: Make a hoots.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about your culpable now, which is probably one of the reasons why.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like it's so intensely.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's good writing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's it's so well written.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's written well, but it's a horrible concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I'll stand by that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we'll tell you something really.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the seat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we wait till we get to this point because I do have some things to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, fair enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very curious is what's happening with Harry and Kale especially because I have no idea like that feels like the most outlandish thing right now
[SPEAKER_00]: Very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happening there?
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like the politic in between the different empire or characters I like that all of them are not one dimensional All of them have these different facets like dusk has this Kindly conciliator and yet the conciliator is building a bomb That's gonna the death star basically like come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the death star can we just be honest about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit of a rip off, but that's all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: How many how many weapons like that can you have right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and day, I thought was really humanized in this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the way he really shows empathy towards his friend in that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and since, you know, I wish there was something I could do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even, even empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is something that happens in the books that doesn't happen in the show is that there's like a sickly clown, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And the sickly clear on they make the point as it makes the point like even empire even even an emperor has to deal with the with illness can't you know an emperor can be all powerful and yet be ill and this is empire here saying I wish you was something I could do about your daughter here I like that in the gambling so you have to bring that up
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where he's talking to his friend in the game.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also the way that he won't lengthen dusk's time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I can't stop us from degenerating sooner.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, that was pretty dramatic wasn't it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I thought that that was very dramatic, but also I think I think interesting that he made honestly probably the wisest choice based on this worldview and didn't go for the easy way out, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, no, and it also gave me some entirely new insight in what it's like to live within
[SPEAKER_02]: the bodies of this, whatever you want to call it, you know, this, this clone existence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think last season, it really emphasized how much the clones are really just puppets of Demorsal, and they know that now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, and that comes up very clearly in this episode doesn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'm just really liking all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how I feel about Gayle on the second foundation right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: That seems to be the shaky spot line for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we'll get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they're making it out of almost entirely whole cloth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't know what's going on there.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could end up being good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't have enough there yet to tell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I think, as with the previous two seasons,
[SPEAKER_02]: They're much more focused on empire and to some degree it's easier to focus on empire.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the things that make the second foundation are more difficult to convey in a visual video.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you think about from the books, most of what we get about the second foundation, it's all mine to mine communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't know much about the second foundation, but I guess we'll let's stay away from the book spoilers for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will tell you, I was talking to Alicia because she has access to the screen and she needs to sub in because she watched the first episode and she was saying how she last season didn't like
[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't like season two as much as season one because she felt like all the plot lines were a lot more separate, not converging into one location.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if I agree with that critique, but that's her critique.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought to myself, I think it's actually going to converge really well in this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: This seems to be all melding into one climax.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, the nexus being the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really like that the mule is not a crisis.
[SPEAKER_00]: that the mule is something unto itself, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I've originally.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, why don't we get right into the episode then?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fifty years ago on Ignis.
[SPEAKER_00]: The second foundation awakens Gale and Harry.
[SPEAKER_00]: The two leaders decide to split the foundation into two teams, one to help overcome the third crisis and the other to defeat the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Needing more time a week to train them in Talex.
[SPEAKER_00]: Harry remains awake while Gale has put back into cryosleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So old man Harry's coming up, but for now, what do you think about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: It did Harry make the right call to sacrifice himself so that Gale could live?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll find out what we... I guess so.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can certainly see why he did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, because this is so completely different from what we get from the books themselves, it will be, it's entirely, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead and the show in your scheme to win your to lose.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just falling along and I'm really interested to see how, how are they going to handle this?
[SPEAKER_02]: I loved all the ritual elements of the awakening, which won't surprise you and probably won't surprise listeners even before.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do host a podcast about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do a host of podcasts about rituals, although it's in the context of the rings of power.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, seeing the first awakenings was an excellent way of showing how stark that third awakening was when there are only two people left to greet the sleeper.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the language they used, Awake and Sleeper, the first speaker welcomes you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It brought tears to me and eyes because first speaker, and suddenly I'm back in the books again, remembering who and what the first speaker was.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I like the way they're using the terminology from the book series.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're making it into something very different.
[SPEAKER_02]: The second foundation welcomes you on the own Neil.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a little awkward, but it also is interesting because the show points out that it mirrors what the first foundation went through.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the next awakening and they kneel, gale's response is, our religious phase is over.
[SPEAKER_02]: No more kneeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, it's a nod to the books because there was that whole sequence of this phase and then this phase and then this phase.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is interesting, they're much less aware of that in the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the books, they're like, there's characters at least who are like, hey, we did, and Harry Selden's recordings will come out and be like, hey, it seems like you move fast to religious phase, and now you're in the economic stage.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't do that in the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's better that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: They actually think it's a bigger improvement to have it more naturally go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they do it a little bit because in the second series, when Harry meets brother constant for the first time, he says, oh, I see their religious faith and this is full swing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're alluding to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they're not making a meal out of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot about that part.
[SPEAKER_02]: It fits.
[SPEAKER_02]: It fits this series better.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think to be doing it in that more subtle kind of way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that does a vasuno can be.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes, of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't sound odd or off for the people who for whom this is all new.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I found it interesting that they plan to look for other mentalics.
[SPEAKER_02]: in the galaxy again, definitely not what happens in the book series, but I think it works well the way they've set this up and to place observers all over the galaxy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a thought about that, which will come to later.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was, I've been confused at first by the time frame.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, wait, where are we?
[SPEAKER_02]: What, you know, I felt like I was just waking up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what's going on?
[SPEAKER_02]: What day is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do I have to do today?
[SPEAKER_02]: And the narration was pretty good at keeping us clear if we were one year after this left or now it's hundred fifty two years later and so on and so on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as far as Harry, well, we can talk about that because we have an exception to go to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, I don't know how to introduce them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We could talk about it as a whole frame.
[SPEAKER_00]: So four years before the start of this season, Gail awakens from cryosleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: She discovers an elderly Harry who has sacrifices remaining years to give the second foundation a chance against the upcoming threats.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells Gail, she threw the plan off by surviving, but got everything back on track.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, if the mule is defeated, everything is heading towards the indivictus.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also learned there will be eight crises in total.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something that I don't think was stated before now.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I've never heard that before.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in either version.
[SPEAKER_00]: My story.
[SPEAKER_00]: That night Harry is visited by Kale, who refuses him a new body, but brings him through a portal to find out who wanted him to have skin in the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gale sleeps again until the present and awakens in time to face the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cream shows her the new inflection point.
[SPEAKER_00]: to a lot here, but I mean, first of all, why don't we, why don't we go to Harry, the statue, Carver, the sculptor, I should say, the, you know, the trainer of mentalics, like he, he really made a name for himself, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're like, Prima.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like how he goes, here's my new guy for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like Prima.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can very much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it seems like a solid dude.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as soon as we were told that Harry was going to stay asleep, I still awake about what Gail went to sleep.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a feeling that he wouldn't be around that song.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is fascinating because, and I really hope they do something more interesting than just kill him off because we did spend a whole season getting him a new body and confirming that he's human.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it would feel really disappointing to me to then have him disappear from this foundation completely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, we're told, you know, Kelly tells him when he asked her for a reprieve, she says that this current body of his was his reprieve.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then she brings him to the portal.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is happening here?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I feel like there's something else going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, as you said in your in your summary, she tells, she takes him to the portal to find out who wanted him to have skin to the game, who wanted him
[SPEAKER_02]: to be able to, excuse me, as long as he did, and baby born and all those stuff, or reading, read, come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we want to call it?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is, it seems like magic, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the closest to show feels like magic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was, again, thinking of every restaurant, mysticism.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, what else could this thing be, but like a god, like, figure, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's not, you know, quote unquote, god, like, it's clearly, it's some kind of being with powers beyond anything anyone imagines right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, a being who sees very broadly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And can resurrect a human being?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, maybe she takes him in front of a mirror and he looks at himself and said, oh, yes, it was me all along.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's another possibility.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the image of entering a portal crossing a threshold, going passing through the veil, all common images of death.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for many cultures, religious and otherwise, a symbol for being reborn into a new way of being.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, she makes very clear that he's not dying, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because she basically says like, you know, be out very honorable to die here and be done with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then she takes into this portal.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's very true that that's not what's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not metaphorical.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a portal that he just went through.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good point.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you've watched it more carefully than I have, and it's been a while since I wasn't in any way, but I'm suffering from the absence of subtitles.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to say, you know, I don't know what it is, but I was able to turn them on today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really?
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to, you've got to look, we'll talk off air, but I think there are actually some sort of subtitles.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, you give me hope that yes, they will keep this area because I do like him better than the Voltaire.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he seems like like like we were talking about yes, skin in the game, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it gives him more heart where the other Harry feels like some kind of chess player treating humans as pieces.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and also the fact that he turns to sculpting to me that's a very human creation, creating art.
[SPEAKER_00]: of himself, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of himself, well, but of course, by creating art, you know, from within yourself and so forth, it's not something that a computer could do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a computer can be generated, but original creation, as it were, is I think a sign of humanity of some kind.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've loved watching his relationship with Gale develop over time and, you know, have some pretty high highs and some pretty intense lows, but throughout it, I think they've always known how much they need each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, Gail is going to be there by herself.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also was very interested that the way the account for the changes in this iteration of the story is that racing Gail's actions brought about a change to the plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: But Gail's being there with the second foundation was an unexpected event that is seen to be essential for the safe conclusion of the plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, cause an effect kind of out the window here, to some degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although, you know, the fault in the fabric or whatever was the very thing that brought about its mandate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's, there is some, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some religious image of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the stone that the bill was rejected became the chief quarters stone, that was the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think last episode, I compared it to the Wheel of Time, the pattern of the major events will have ended the same thing in talking about Spibbimmy.
[SPEAKER_00]: The same thing will happen with the major events.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just depends who does it, who's injured.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why, you know, they repeat this a million times in the book to the point where it's exhausting of like a single individual is not going to change the main plan, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Of Harry Selden's crises.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But
[SPEAKER_00]: It depends how it will happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the plan cannot happen without individual actions, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: The mathematics of it is based upon the actions of multitudes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but doesn't necessarily have to mean that
[SPEAKER_02]: The accomplishment of it does not depend on individual human.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe not this particular one, but some one particular human will develop in a certain way, again, based upon large numbers, perhaps.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also true that Gell and Harry were able to stretch their influence by using the cryosleep training.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you have
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, a society that has been for generations trained in the same pattern which again is not to send what happens in the books it's just that the same people aren't training them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really liked the segue that they gave us from the second foundation to the empire.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they they gale and hurry and watching what I've taken to calling them you'll tell.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this fuzzy thing, you know, kind of staticking out in the prime radiant predictions model.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like that they focus on that and then next thing, you know, within the new section where they're also focusing on the new detail.
[SPEAKER_00]: So nobody's happy about it, huh?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't understand why they would be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have one last thing to ask you about this scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why was there no statue of Markly?
[SPEAKER_00]: We know he was integral to last season, according David.
[SPEAKER_00]: So why, why don't statue of Markly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it Markly entirely in the vampire?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm just joking around.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just joking around.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just joking around.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're saying, John, you got me.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was just the David Gooyer came on our show to tell us how wrong I remember.
[SPEAKER_02]: I listened to his delight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go back and listen to the interview if you must sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, do.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's delightful and he's delightful.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, something that I think about the I'm thinking about this whole season because of that interview and this is why you know, I joke about it, but it was actually a really thoughtful interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gave us a really grateful that he came on to explain the saw process a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said that he had different offerings for the series, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get canceled.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking about that in the first the first off ramp is season three.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what season three I thought it was season four?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's three five eight.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you listen to it more than I did.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't listened to it in a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I could be wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's your script of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should probably look it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just, I think that that's really interesting because I think we're going toward a really, a really satisfying conclusion here, whether it gets renewed or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it will get renewed because we did just get a new showrunner, didn't they?
[SPEAKER_00]: They just announced that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't see that, but I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they did.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did for a season four.
[SPEAKER_02]: I trust you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I could see them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they put all the pieces in place so that if they really truly did the horrible thing of denying them a season four, there could be a fairly reasonable wrap up.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, there is an off ramp.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really hope they don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope so too, and I don't think they're going to, but I like the idea that there isn't an offer amp here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because I think it will be a very satisfying finale.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's, you know, it's like having your bags or seat belts.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's a backup plan if you need it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a lot of oxygen, your oxygen mess will drop down from the ceiling.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a lot of season four.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your conclusion will drop in from that step.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just being silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we are going to drop out of our plane right now to take a quick break.
[SPEAKER_00]: On Trantor, Demerzel and the Cleans observed the inflection point, which she tells them is not fixable with PsychoHistory.
[SPEAKER_00]: Day plays the nihilist and dusk pleads for his life, which ends in ten days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demerzel tells him she has no agency in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Later, Day gambles with his family heirlooms.
[SPEAKER_00]: He confesses to Song that the end of the dynasty is coming soon, and says he wants to go with her to Micogen.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm saying that right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Looks good to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does Capaldas today and asks him to extend the lifetime of dusks as the previous day had shortened it due to earlier waiting?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, something just occurred to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where Demosel just becomes this fascinating nexus.
[SPEAKER_02]: She says that it's not fixable with psychohistry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Psychohistry is profoundly mathematically based.
[SPEAKER_02]: a computer could generate out all possible whatever and come to that conclusion.
[SPEAKER_02]: But can she, as a positronic robot, include this unpredictable human sight?
[SPEAKER_02]: Already, this crisis has happened because I'm an unpredictable event.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, a sport, or if you will, which is what the genetic
[SPEAKER_02]: difference is often called, you know, just this genetically completely unexpected human being is not the opposite also true that there could be, you know, common every day human being who would also just by this one individual choice managed to save it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because she is not able to calculate for that or keep that in account, she's making this absolute prediction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's exactly right though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're proving her point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that psycho history would say the whole movement has to be working against this threat.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she's saying the movement's not doing anything about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going right towards the third crisis.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like you say, we need an ordinary person or perhaps a group of super people like the mentalics to come in and defeat the villain, right, defeat this aberration.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have to be careful what I say here, because I know what happens in the third novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know how it has worked out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not at all sure that that's how they're going to do it here, for a variety of reasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I still think, because of the way they're showing this contrasting idea of, you know, Demousel, the positronic robot who tears over in her chest to store the prime gradient.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Demousel, the being who needs to consult with a priestess, because she's having an existential crisis.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't, I don't know that many robots that have existential crises.
[SPEAKER_02]: I certainly assume and so do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in the asthma of novels, everybody who witness as a violent act kind of has an existential crisis.
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose I have not read any of the robot novels.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they are the only ones that I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, at any time, they witness a human being coming to like severe harm.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're brain just breaks.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, we just can't do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can maybe rehabilitate them, but
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they actually do have these crises themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess that's what she might have been referring to in episode one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although she seems to slice people in half pretty easily.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she does.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, but see her programming had been rewritten.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Only one now.
[SPEAKER_02]: right instead of all the three and you know the the the greater good peace and all the rest of the right so yeah I love that phrase something has passed shadows in the map which again says okay the map is what I know yet there is something that has managed to do real it will that can't be more math can it it's got to be some other kind of human or other watch
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true, you know, when I was in high school, I remember those TI-E-E-E-E-III, they didn't have light up screens.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need light.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't have a shadow in the room.
[SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are the shadows?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is speculation, more questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are those shadows in the math the result of the meal?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they possibly shadows of the members of the second foundation who are expanding throughout the galaxy?
[SPEAKER_02]: And could that also be the shadow of Gail herself?
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the beauty of this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just the mathematics, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more than that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it does in the end of the day take human creativity to help the math along if you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hadn't considered it was gay and I really like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea that because Harry goes on this whole thing, I've like, oh, you threw the whole plan off and you brought it back.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what if what if she didn't bring it back?
[SPEAKER_00]: What if it was back on track for a while?
[SPEAKER_00]: But her presence is now too much for the system.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's certainly possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that she trained this army of
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that she'd become Professor Rex for the X-Men.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's too much for the system, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this, this network of mental X has just warped everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's be fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was Harry who trained them by at large.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like she did, they did a hundred years together, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did a hundred years of a few weeks a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then Harry did fifty years by himself, which
[SPEAKER_00]: Did Harry at that age have fifty years left like what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or did he go to sleep at some point?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I might be in flesh, the implication I took from it was he stayed awake for those fifty two years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: He used up the rest of his remaining life span as it were, not that it's calculated out to the, you know, the month of the day, but he used up his, the rest of his mana if you like.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, no, no, that was going to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: The sentence from day, this toy obeyed that toy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Meaning, Demerzel obeyed the prime radiant.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's so sassy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just the brilliant summation of the whole thing in a way, as you say, sassy, um, absolutely to the point.
[SPEAKER_02]: And wow, what is in there that just goes right in both language and image.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just funding.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Demerzel comes back with, I am the clock for every Cleans Life time I keep is exact.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm boom.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: My drop.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it goes back to what I was saying in our hot takes is that this day.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the first episode, he kind of seemed silly and without much depth, like very well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we see that he's not that right.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is drowning his sorrows for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he still sharp as a tack when he wants to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, again, you know, to some degree, cloned all the little nanobots that can come from completely deteriorating maybe until the time has come.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's extremely smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's extremely perceptive.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's extremely empathetic in a way that I don't think any of the other either dusk or dawn are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think dawn is empathetic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Dawn is calculating and is smart and is charming, but I don't think he's empathetic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he's all those things, and I think he does have a certain degree of compassion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't seen it yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he played the passion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, he, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, you know, who has he been compassionate towards?
[SPEAKER_02]: Dusk.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's himself, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure he feels that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: He seems to because dusk and day are so diametrically opposed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all the more easy to see them as three individual.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we know, the genetic drift has been so massive at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: that they're really, they're not, you know, it's they're not all eating at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're not doing all the similar gestures and, and for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So no, they're no longer trying to present as one coherent hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I just, I don't know, I haven't seen at least for like the little people or for humanity as a whole.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't seen a lot of compassion for
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen him be concerned that his reign will end, but I, and that's different from, and he even makes clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, you know, I'm not concerned with the people of Calgary, and I'm concerned about a threat to the rule here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if that's for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see a threat to the galaxy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember, but I, more to Empire, which could be interpreted both ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm concerned with rest to Empire, I.E.
[SPEAKER_02]: the survival of this massive constrictive human beings and planets versus, you know, these three clone beings who are really one supposedly, but not anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, I've just been too much an actor if they are as individuals they can be.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also, I thought, you know, observing on something, well, okay, it's not much good to ask a robot for a peep anymore that it is to ask Kali for one, you know, in their different ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're being, you know, strict to some kind of timetable or intercompletion of whatever happens to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the necessity.
[SPEAKER_02]: The necessity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, that's a distinction there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not afraid of dying, but I'm not afraid of being dead, but I'm not looking for the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it all depends on how.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's all so many different ways, but I think we're drifting if not genetically now this point of the course of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, when does asks day to adjust the thread, being the change the time of sentient procedure that is coming, you know, basically let him extend his life the other ten days.
[SPEAKER_02]: Days demonstration.
[SPEAKER_02]: That such a request is impossible.
[SPEAKER_02]: He slits his arm from the wrist to elbow and watched the nanobots heal himself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thus proving the reality of their artificiality.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're rhyming.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, isn't that close?
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that they have these inner perceptions of themselves, I think, now as individuals.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they are still these artificial constructs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or they certainly don't have one might call a few of full human experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they're feeling more and more human on the inside.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where my belly button joke came in.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's one scene in particular where it is shown beyond shadow of a doubt because of where his loincloth has slipped to.
[SPEAKER_02]: That day does not have a belly button.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't doubt it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a good attention to detail with that kind of thing in that show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and some of the, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: stories that came up before the first episode drop talked about the belly button.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was kind of on my favorite argument.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: All these little, all these little hints of, yeah, we can, we can react to them as human beings and characters and all these other stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we can get these singers of reminders that I can't slip my, you know, my arm from wrist elbow and survive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a belly button.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: As interesting, I honestly took the nano thing as more of an evolution of the personal shields, because that was a big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last season, what's Empire was really mad that foundation had personal shields, as well as as well as Empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here we have a thing beyond that, which is you can hurt me all you want, but the nano bites are gonna heal me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, see, I thought I remembered from the season two,
[SPEAKER_02]: that one of the whole intentions of the kidnapping of Don by that underground rebellion group was to get his blood so that they could incorporate his nanobots into themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Lister's writing up a gun that completely wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm going back and forth.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should remember things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, that's pretty firm in my mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think it's something I could make up myself, but who knows?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I again, I'm really enjoying the development of all of the Empire brothers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should say, all the Empire brothers in this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to this development with song because it reminds us that there was this Don who wanted to escape with a woman before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: this day was like I didn't you know it could just be him waxing on a dream here he might not really mean it but I don't know he seemed pretty genuine to me if you really like to move away with her yeah no I thought I remember didn't the first episode somebody refer or desk refers to song as um days drug dealer so that might have been where the relationship started so there's a pragmatic aspect to it but no I agree um
[SPEAKER_02]: She certainly seems to play an important part in his life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's one more bit that I wanted to say, I can't remember when we learned this, that song that song comes from a planet called MicahJune.
[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned that already.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanted to say, in the books, that is the name of a food producing sector on Trantor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_02]: So already we have the association of, you know, supplying something nourishment food, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: It also happened as I found out when I looked it up to be the name of an in real life food company, food production company that got swallowed up by a larger company, a well back.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it reminded me, in fact, I thought it was the word my ceiling of interest.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that got me thinking about, of course, mushrooms, because my ceiling rather than network of fibers that support mushrooms, which grow underground.
[SPEAKER_02]: So interesting associations of food, underground networks, and things that spring up unexpectedly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can only say the last of us when you talk about undergrad fungal networks.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just fair enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm guessing it so.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been ruined for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: The powers of association.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, let's go on to the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: The mule on Caligan.
[SPEAKER_00]: The mule enjoys the spoils of war.
[SPEAKER_00]: He greets Skylet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also known as Little Bread Roll.
[SPEAKER_00]: The daughter of Caligan's late ruler.
[SPEAKER_00]: The mule compels her to hold a gun to her head.
[SPEAKER_00]: and implicates one of the bystanders in giving the final countdown.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demonstrating that he only needs to control key players, not whole populations.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought this was a really elite dog scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: More than anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was great, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was brilliant.
[SPEAKER_02]: He done.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was absolutely horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, but that's what you hear, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, obviously, China, if there's no conflict, whatever, what are we going to do here?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't don't make the overstate my case.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, I'm straw manning your argument a little bit here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, take your straw man outside and turn it in the molds, okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I recognize.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very difficult to convey the concept of mental control and individual medium.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they have to come up with other ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do like the point that he says something to the effect of, he doesn't really have the ability.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's tiring.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's expenditure of energy for him to try and control whole populations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so as long as he converts key figures, then the rest of that can kind of come along.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not dissimilar to some of the stuff we see in the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the kind of psychological violence that got enacted there really gratuitous and using the viewer's own mind to project the bloody horrors that in this case don't actually occur, but could.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in some ways, that's even more terrifying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you become your own jailers.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're mentioning little bit earlier.
[SPEAKER_02]: You become your own, you know, you generate your own fear all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's, it's, it's very dramatic.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no doubt about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it certainly is a form of line control.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was horrific to see the girl save more than anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, and again, and again, and mechanically joyfully, you know, just up-eating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, first of all, amazing performance, you know, child actors, you know, they're sometimes, sometimes not the best part of the cast, but this one did a great job, I don't know, a name in front of me, but I fantastic job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really enjoyed the person on the sidelines, one of the soldiers, who he made, say, three, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: One, two, three.
[SPEAKER_00]: She can't even believe she would have said it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I thought was the really moving part of it because they were focusing on her a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, why are they focusing on her?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, she's gonna do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a feeling he was gonna do something like that with her, but I didn't know he's out to what.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the performance really sold it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This like, shock at her own actions.
[SPEAKER_02]: It did.
[SPEAKER_02]: It absolutely did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which again is all the more devastating because
[SPEAKER_02]: You've lost your personal agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: She and another herself would never have done that, we're said that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But something else inside her overpowered her own agency and made her say something that was important to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, these demonstrations are incredibly vivid.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no doubt about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And convey in very stark and unmistakable terms what he can and can't do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although we haven't really seen what he can't do yet, I suppose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, I am loving this villain.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that you're a little skeptical of some of his actions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think he's a terrible person, but I think he's fascinated me to watch.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I did read an interview with him, or maybe I watched, I can't remember which.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he does have, no, it was an article.
[SPEAKER_02]: He does have a sense in his own mind of
[SPEAKER_02]: who this character is in part of his motivation and so forth.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's more to him than just what we've seen so far.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I won't say any more because, you know, some people just don't want to be spoiled at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: So apologies just for you like I've already spoiled it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm looking forward to seeing what more he does and how those other aspects get portrayed to what extent they do get portrayed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm really excited to see more of the mural.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're only a fifth through the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sure there's plenty more to come.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know next episode we're likely to go to this party with the Mallows.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm ready to get Marshmallow with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get head on to the Mallows.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was to say, unless it's the herb Marshmallow, which is good for the digestive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just save.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Mallows on Kelkin, Torin, Mallow, and his new wife Beta.
[SPEAKER_00]: enjoy their honeymoon.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are interrupted by Han Pretcher, who implores them to infiltrate the mules upcoming party.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretcher is using the traders to give cover to the foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love their little AI sweetheart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was kind of a whos on first bit with it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, sweetheart, what is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which one?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Once again, this is a nice nod to the books, having Hobart Malos descendants established the Alliance of Traders, which is what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, I'm having thought backs to the original to Hobart Malos and also to further constant because clearly there was a child.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The descendants of both of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lovely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that the current mall of his name is Toran.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't sure if it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: But his uncle is also one of the traders, which is also per the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just got up to their introduction, the books actually, like a little while before we recorded this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Baby is very different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the most, as about, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the past, in the
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's already showed a lot of agency in a couple chapters that I've read with her exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, even with that agency, she's still colored by Isaac Asumov's, you know, by his he is, it's very interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, how could she not be?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is, she's a foundation or in the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's never really clear to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: If she is also a foundation or here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there, the resemblance comes to an abrupt halt.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are party kids interested in cyberitic pleasures.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they don't really seem to be entirely concerned about them, y'all.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless they're putting on a stupendous act.
[SPEAKER_02]: But why put on an act when you're by yourself with your robot?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think they're going to have a similar journey to their ancestor, Homer, whereas they're kind of forced to care.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's interesting that they've gotten invited to one of the Meals parties.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm wondering why?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it sounds like the Meal wants to, you know, there are people in our real world who we do a lot of what they want us to be respected by what they see as their peers, who don't see that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I suppose there's that whole thing like you can't buy class, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, you're a lot of little children.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wants to be accepted as the legitimate ruler now, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't want to have to force a whole.
[SPEAKER_00]: He holds aristocracy, except him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wants anybody with money, anybody with influence to come here and be in, you know, kissed the ring.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I can't say any more about the difference between this and the books, but... And I hope he clean the ring, my God.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's a dick.
[SPEAKER_02]: And having a hundred-priture right here,
[SPEAKER_02]: is very interesting in the matter and the way it happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, familiar faces familiar themes and so forth, and I'm liking them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because of the changes I've already made, I'm enjoying watching how this retelling of the story works in them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So many details, but also given the changes how they're going to, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: arrive at the same end of the arc as the books do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe they won't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who knows?
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see them going.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they already have diverged quite a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I am totally fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not tied to these books at all with the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, you haven't lived with him for several decades.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, but... Like some of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just mean, I think this is, you know, it took me a while to, like, go, the Wheel of Time show, you know, diverging from the books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it did.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that diverges quite a lot less.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is, this is, but from the beginning, I think this show has been honest with us in the fact that it is not a retelling, but a reimagining.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I am much less attached to this one than I am in a lot of other adaptations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm content with that, and it's also interesting to see, again, the change over time, how it does them off, convey the adjacency, how will the show convey the adjacency.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how to pull that reflect the gender relations of the times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this will, this will be a really interesting plot line.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not a lot to say here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a very charming couple here, you know, just just right off on their honeymoon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's when they, I like that they were like, oh, it's an old custom money mooting.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: We even got married.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: We know it's not many do it anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, ready to wrap up the episode with foundation and empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: See what I did there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: I named it after the book this section.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that was that I appreciated your nod.
[SPEAKER_00]: So dusk arrives to prepare for dawn's ascension as he will be acting in place of day.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gives dawn words of encouragement and promises him a gift.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dusk is to the preparation of that gift, the Novakila, a black hole bomb, which can kill a planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dawn and Dusk meet with foundation ambassador Quint for drinks, except Dawn is in a drinker.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dawn expresses concern about the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dusk assures him that he'll be prepared.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quint pushes Dawn, who says he is concerned about people like that, people like them, you all with abilities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dawn locks himself in a room and opens a comic to Gell, who says it's time to make yourself a useful empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh man, so first of all, it's the death story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we can just move on from that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was very disappointed in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would have liked something more creative.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess what there could still be something interesting with it because this quote stuck with me, you know, dusk asks, what's, is that everything gone?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said nothing is gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: It remains, but forever changed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't issue you brought that up, and it is a good thing to remember.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also felt there was more than a shade of the Up and Hairs, up and Himer syndrome in that technique.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was describing a whole thing to ask me shades of the A-bomb, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a deterrent.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one ever uses deterrence.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think I'm right in saying that
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm confused because the Invictus was mentioned very early on in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did he say that they found the old Invictus and they used its black hole technology to create this new black hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't fully follow the tech here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's true, but listeners please write in and clarify for us if you are so inclined.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it circles the beast, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was a lot of poetic language here that made the science very wibbly wobbly to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a good cover for wobbly wobbly, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, that was what let me think up in time.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's this name in Rogue One says when he finally sees the Death Star effects coming towards his face?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, saw.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, not saw.
[SPEAKER_02]: the guy who oversaw the entire product.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Krannick, thank you, Krannick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this whole thing about empire and foundation making, making nice with each other is quite interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea what's going to come from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I mean, see, this is the kind of plot cliffhanger that I really like is because that tells me exactly what's happening, but not exactly how it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, game changers versus cliffhangers.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a game changer to have empire and second foundation working together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so covertly, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: To end with that whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: quite quite the jarring connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although Quint I think has some suspicion?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she says, gosh, you know a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then all of all together, certain how you know them, particularly since the foundation doesn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But Dusk also knows them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think Dusk is involved in this partnership.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have no idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think Dusk knows about the communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have no idea how dust causes sources, who knows.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say, yeah, dust lurking in the corner going, oh, you'll be prepared.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is a little bit too supervillaining for me, like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quint, I turn around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at this guy in the eye and be like, all right, what's going on, buddy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, seriously.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, it did sound very vengeful, didn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, oh, you'll be prepared.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was even like in the super villain tone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had to, he should have a white cat that he's just stroking.
[SPEAKER_00]: White fluffy cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, poor white cats.
[SPEAKER_01]: They get a bad rip.
[SPEAKER_00]: The white cats, the black cats, you gotta be something in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I make sure is always best.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what's interesting, again, about the whole Death Star plot, does consist that Demerzone knows nothing about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be profoundly surprised if that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, he put it out there so we can say, all right, fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demerzone might not let him know that she knows anything about it, but that doesn't mean she knows nothing about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course she doesn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you don't show your whole entire hand.
[SPEAKER_02]: until it's time to lay down cards.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wondered if it was the almost example of Dave that led to Dawn deciding not to drink.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: That could be, I mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look what it led to, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have family members whose parents were alcoholic's and would not touch a drop of alcohol their whole life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the trauma does do something to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can attest from personal experience, it does.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will still drink on occasion, but you know, only celebratory.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: A couple times of year.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it has an effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: It definitely has an effect.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that's part of why I feel more not sympathetic, I'll exactly with him, but feel that he might have a little bit more empathy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: than we think.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's the enterprise.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is that guarding yourself?
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be some preservation, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, I also was fascinated that he's following Seldon's teachings.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that he kind of calls out Quant, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he goes, are you even following Seldon's teachings?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if I bought her defense, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, I didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has a very nice life over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think there was more, you know, the lady had to protest too much in that particular response.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, has he been following Selden's teachings?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or has he been following Gail?
[SPEAKER_02]: And her interpretation of Selden's teachings.
[SPEAKER_02]: And her understanding of the plan and, you know, the, the mule tail at the end of the primary
[SPEAKER_02]: showing the end of the plan and all those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that ending left a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, dangling with sparks flying at the end, if you'll let me use that imagery.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It also injects a small amount from the other books in the series.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know how deep we should go into these.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think perhaps we should maybe we should save them for like a spoiler section.
[SPEAKER_00]: We could do in the finale where we talk about books for listeners.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to work these and put these later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But maybe you mentioned the books that it's pulling from.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was just going to say that readers of parallel to foundation and forward the foundation will definitely know what I'm talking about here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can see the how they're drawing from the entire series and taking things out.
[SPEAKER_02]: to some degree, repurposing them and dropping them in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I mean, they definitely took a few functions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I, I just read the whole Bell Rio section in the books and the way they were going out and reorganized that in the show is almost unrecognizable and yet still tells a similar story.
[SPEAKER_02]: It tells a similar story.
[SPEAKER_02]: It gets you to the next level.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will be honest and say I liked the whole Bell Rio C plot from the series better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then from the original book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was a, it was less hand-wavy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was less hand-wavy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was more personal.
[SPEAKER_02]: You really got into them.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was much more character-driven.
[SPEAKER_02]: You kind of lose the echo of the Roman Empire and their generals.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is what, as I'm off, was drawing from, oh, and also that scene where Dave was drinking and drugged with his journals.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, very narrow, like, you know, slumming with the guys or whatever, even as he felt these were his best friends in the world, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because their whole commitment was to, you know, keep into my life, not that that's a big problem if you have them to be a Clionic clone.
[SPEAKER_02]: As we've seen demonstrated more than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, um, and as you said, you know, day showing a bit of empathy.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so sorry that I can't do anything for you for your daughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, good stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, any other thoughts on this episode before we wrap it up?
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I liked it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I liked it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, it left us with some interesting questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, some possibilities.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, I, I, I certainly have faith in them still, but they're going to
[SPEAKER_02]: offering this off and I accept the meal as they have created it as being more fitting with the story they're doing here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to like it but you know it's cool and they're doing making good use of what they have created.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm I'm two for two on great episodes by my ranking and I am I am very excited to see what episode three breaking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will see you then Marilyn for episode three for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about what else is going on on the network or wrap it up murder bot or we did wrap up murder bot last week by the time you read this by the time you read this by the time you listen to this
[SPEAKER_00]: And so go check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're enjoying foundation, you already have Apple TV plus go back and watch Murderbot or really hoping it gets renewed because it was a really fun season.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a little really heartwarming story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Marilyn, I think you would actually like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not actually as much violence as you would think for a show of that title.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you said that to me before.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I certainly do have the intention of
[SPEAKER_02]: wrong up on that, but John, forgive me, I haven't even finished Dr. Who yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just not going to add one more series.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I could give you a pitch on that note, there are about twenty minute episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you said that, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, everybody should go check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're liking the Apple TV sci-fi stuff, go check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had full coverage on there with me in Alicia.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alicia also just did iron heart with John and they seem to really like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that you will be very pleased with both the show and the coverage if you check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know David has alien earth coming whenever that premieres at least have peace maker on the fall and we got a lot of other stuff coming up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're to do space balls soon for space balls to the search for more money.
[SPEAKER_02]: But please do Galaxy Quest.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please do Galaxy Quest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please do Galaxy Quest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll think about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's Bob's and one of my, our favorite comedic films.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just excellent.
[SPEAKER_00]: For you, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll commit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And check out second breakfast this month.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be on tacos and the Lebanese are going to be on one of the velkoma movies that Alicia picked.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're a subscriber, go vote on that right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, it's probably over by the time you're hearing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't vote on it anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just listen to what I come to out.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, and check out our affiliates currently active, our properly Howard movie review with their bacon wrapped Kevin Bacon series.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're having a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just did put on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I was listening a very, very, very funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: Over at the movie?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think on the movie, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I should definitely make sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And neither of them wants to show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm reminded of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm reminded of people who rant on about books that they never read, but anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: Moving on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely also check out different mind the music, weekly coverage with psychology and music, beautiful coverage over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And check out Wolchif Dust is started on their Doon series, Alicia is leading you through the first Doon novel.
[SPEAKER_00]: So go and listen to that wherever you get your podcasts.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also get Japanese and rituals if you want more Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, brings a power, rather, that's the name of the series.
[SPEAKER_00]: Season one with Dr. Sarah Brown.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and we will be doing season two.
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably midway through twenty twenty-six times in order to lead right up to the opening of season three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking forward to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: and radio active rambling doing their fallout coverage leading up to season two of fallout in December, I think it's coming out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And lastly, the Star Wars kind of timeline podcast and it will be just stuff coming up soon with newer public stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you say subscribe and keep an eye on that feed.
[SPEAKER_00]: For now, I want to thank our Discord server boosters, Aaron Kay, to live with the real-are-dork of the ninjas.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dove-seventy one, Athena A, Tina Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Partition and Radio Active Richard, and our lore masters, Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian E, SC, Peter O'H, Adam S, Nancy M, Dove-seventy one, Brian eighty sixty three, Frederick H, Sarah L, Karat C,
[SPEAKER_00]: Matthew M. Sarah M. Andre B. Kwangiew.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I Jedi Bob?
[SPEAKER_00]: Nathan T. Alex V. Sub-Zero.
[SPEAKER_00]: Aaron K. Deli V. Mother Ship-Sixie-One.
[SPEAKER_00]: NARS?
[SPEAKER_00]: Kathy W. Lestu.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jeffrey B. Alyssa U. Neil F. Benby.
[SPEAKER_00]: Scott F. Steven N. Julia F. Kalias.
[SPEAKER_00]: Illmarion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ford slash Tim.
[SPEAKER_00]: Paul K. Bobby C. Anodrion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you everyone for all your support, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you on the next Transmission Secret Transmission between Empire and Second Foundation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Lower Hounds podcast is produced in published by the Lower Hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lowerhounds.com slash contact.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get early and add free access to all Lower Hounds podcast at patreon.com slash the Lower Hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.