[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes a world looks like you ain't ever seen it before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just be how never ended with those, how you need as a door.
[SPEAKER_00]: Searching for something to put a smile back on your face.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just remembering unusual times that can come from on an usual place.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need a partner for a ride Cause everybody needs a ride Such a bird is to the side Just ask See the word and I'll be there Just ask
[SPEAKER_00]: I know the greatest things in the life I'll come in a pair They say hindsight's twenty twenty That ain't far enough behind me So we can walk this sweetest honey I think hindsight's nineteen nineteen Isn't need to pretend I got a hand I can land Who's like you really need a friend Just ask
[SPEAKER_00]: Shit-nine shows dot me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shit-nine shows Tommy was not filmed before live studio audience.
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you ready to slay another day?
[SPEAKER_04]: So are we welcome back to shit nineties shows taught me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just a link here with my co-host Sarah Humphrey Sarah, how are you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm doing really well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just got the FedEx man just came he's actually really cute and he just delivered a humongous box and I've been waiting for this for like a good long while actually It's like been back ordered.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's
[SPEAKER_03]: Jonathan March actually.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been worse.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I got the T shirts.
[SPEAKER_03]: The posters.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got a couple of posters.
[SPEAKER_03]: What about the trading cards?
[SPEAKER_03]: I did, but I got to be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just got them for resale.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm really hoping to make a good dime off of those cards, especially those one of them I got like pre-signed.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really hoping that that's gonna get me some good money, maybe I'll be able to pay off the rest of my husband's student debt with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really excited.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would show you the hope, but I also don't
[SPEAKER_03]: want you to know what I have, because you're like here and steal our deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's so, yes, with valuable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we're not alone today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Joining us in the opening credits for the first time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you have AJ Mas, AJ, how are you?
[SPEAKER_01]: These are all lies.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_03]: I would never lie.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would never, ever, ever lie.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're covering students.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're doing very good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Season four episode, seventeen of Buffy and AJ, I'm noticing a pattern with episodes you pick.
[SPEAKER_04]: Number one, it may be slightly divisive episodes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Number two, episodes that heavily feature our Guy Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and part of it is because the Jonathan episodes were written by Jane Spencer and Jane is someone who I reached out to when I was writing my book and she was very generous and you know, it allowed me to interview her and we spoke a lot about these ear shot and superstar.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a little bit more behind the scenes stuff that she told me from these, but yeah, I
[SPEAKER_01]: I love shows that take a character that who's not like part of the core and like give something to do from time to time without like totally derailing the storylines for the season and then I think Buffy did that more than I'll show us and in a very strong capacity.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Jonathan, Jonathan makes a splash this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: The moment I saw the opening credits, I was like, what are we doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: What is happening?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is Jonathan a member of the opening credits in like a very big way?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the more time when on I was like something is so very wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, when Buffy is like, do you know who we need?
[SPEAKER_04]: And especially Sarah, I don't know about you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I'm gonna, I feel like I want to start fast forwarding through the previously ons because I'm so done with them showing previously ons that make no sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then it's like all to just spoil something, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like when faith showed up, they had a previous end that had faith with Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like previously on Buffy and
[SPEAKER_04]: Jonathan, it's like the shooting episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, what do you mean previously on Buffy the shooting episode?
[SPEAKER_04]: That was the season.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that, I mean, I don't think that that's a hot take for somebody to skip.
[SPEAKER_03]: the previously ons because it's so spoiler heavy and to be honest with you that was the original premise of previously on which is a whirlwind podcast of how much can you know what's happening in a show if you only watch previously ons and in a lot of shows
[SPEAKER_03]: It can't get very spoilery.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess like that's where like the edge it comes in as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't really like think about anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess I don't really read into it too much when there is a previously on.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just like, oh, it's there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I definitely think that it was a giveaway.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought that
[SPEAKER_03]: I felt like something was off from like the very second the episode started.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just felt like we were in a fantasy land and I guess like my original question was, is this a dream?
[SPEAKER_03]: We just saw a dream's type sequence in, yes, the cold opening with faith and buffy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that that was my original assumption of what was going on maybe
[SPEAKER_03]: It was some sort of dream from Buffy or Jonathan or something, but it was a lot more nefarious than that a bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, my first like two notes that I wrote down for this episode are why is Jonathan in the opening credits?
[SPEAKER_04]: Question mark, exclamation point.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then why are the schoolbies going to Jonathan?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this a dream sequence?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then my next note was, this is definitely a fucking dream sequence.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think like I called right away because like you know Adam's been watching this with us and it was like he was like what's up with this episode and it's like I think it's a spoof episode like and that's what it felt like it felt like a spoof episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was kind of like AJ like a marriage between like a spoof episode and like something that's like canon you know I mean I guess it is going to be canon.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't a dream.
[SPEAKER_03]: like all the elements.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but originally it felt like, oh, this is like a spoof episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking kind of back to Felicity where just we had that episode where like everybody was in the box.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like a twilight episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this actually happening?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it not?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: But AJ, do you recall when you first saw this episode and like what was your original inclination about what was happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Originally when this episode aired, it had been about a full month since we last saw Buffy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you know, reruns were a thing and we were waiting and waiting so when, you know, the show starts and it's just kind of like, wait, what's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: These credits, like you thought you missed a couple of episodes because it had been so long since you didn't like
[SPEAKER_01]: What happened last week did I miss?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there was definitely that error confusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they use that to their advantage.
[SPEAKER_01]: So put this episode here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and after this episode, it's going to be another three weeks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, good.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just like in the an island of itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in many ways, I think that hurt the reception of this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, you're so want to see what happens next on my gosh, you know, this whole buffet thing and the body swap and like, what is the fall off from this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are we doing here?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's why I think this episode at the time got a lot more negative reception than now where it's like, you know, you can go episode episode episode and it's like, okay, it kind of works now because you didn't build up the sense of the patient of waiting for something that didn't happen this week.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I could see people being upset about it, specifically because it really, there's not a ton of like main storyline progression, like Adam makes an appearance, but he's not really doing a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: Most of this episode feels
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the, it feels like the point of the episode, Sarah is like, what you can, what Easter eggs you can point out in the background of every scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like how many Jonathan things can you point out like this actor?
[SPEAKER_04]: How many photo shoots have to do?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like all this posters and the playing cards and the even the balls posters there.
[SPEAKER_04]: The balls poster was replaced by like a Jonathan doing the Michael Jordan jump.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let me be clear.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like the,
[SPEAKER_03]: Prop department had a field day.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like this was where they really got to shine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my, you know, I've, I was a film major for a good hot minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I specifically wanted to do props and sets.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this would have just been like an absolute field day for them to be able to
[SPEAKER_03]: in this alternate universe that they were living in where Jonathan was this was the savior was incredible was had all this power, all this strength, all this whatever for him to have all of these Easter eggs.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Easter eggs, I think, and the little details are the best part of this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_03]: it's funny because like did I enjoy it like no like it was the stupidest fucking shit I've ever seen but like I can appreciate it for like the bet and like if there's anything that I love in this world it's it's the bet like I love the bet so I think like just giving credit to all those details and all those little easterize and all of those little like
[SPEAKER_03]: Blinken you miss it moments.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think like elevate this episode's cloud or maybe clouds not the, like it elevates the level that it differentiates it from like another stereotypical bad episode like the pact like beer bad like right ever other bullshit that we complained about.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like I agree with AJ in that I could see how this would be very a very frustrating experience.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're coming off of a three week break where some big stuff went down like faith in Buffy or body swapping like first of all, faith comes back like and then their body swapping like that's a big
[SPEAKER_04]: story progression beat to then jump into an episode that feels like a love letter to like a very tertiary obscure character and AJ I'm a fan of TV you could say like I get it right like I was on the message boards when lost was on like I could
[SPEAKER_04]: This is almost like a love letter to the fans of like, hey, remember that guy, Jonathan?
[SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna have a field day with him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we're gonna have a great time and everyone's gonna enjoy themselves.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if I'm a fan and I'm coming off of that episode, we just left and it's been three freaking weeks and this is the episode you put in front of me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, it's like starving and then being like, okay, you ready for this epic meal?
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's a bowl of rice when you were like promised steak.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like,
[SPEAKER_04]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like silly, but like there was a certain point where I was like, okay, what am I doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: What are we actually doing here?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like once Jonathan got called in like for the seventh time to help out, I think I was like, I am ready to solve the mystery of what is happening in this town right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's hard because I'm a two-mind to here again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know what my action was when it aired and I know what the general reaction was, but also going back to the episode now after all these years, knowing where the show goes from here and having seen it through its completion there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot going on here that I think on a rewatch years later is so much more to appreciate about this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what Josh does.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what's so frustrating about Josh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you know, it's getting personal issues aside and all that other stuff just as an artist and writer in the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like at the beginning of the season, you know, you got your first episode and he basically
[SPEAKER_01]: has a long tracking shot where he shows you the whole season, you know, you know, they go, they're, who are these strange military guys is the initiative walks by and like, oh, who's this girl?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is she?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is Oz like paying attention to her?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everything from the season, he kind of seeds in that first episode, the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here what he's doing is he's continuing the theme of the season in a very interesting way, I think, because to me, the main theme of the season is can I reinvent myself?
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I who I thought I was or am I someone different?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, when you have in addition to, you know, Willow's journey is like she's developing her sexuality and like it is that something that she can do and, you know, can, can Buffy move on from angel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the addition of angel being his own show, can I do a new show with angel and make that work as well?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, Giles, can I recognize Giles as this demon?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, faith in Buffy, swapping bodies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there something about the core of me that makes you able to see me, even though I don't look like myself, like, that's the whole theme of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to now continue that theme with Jonathan, this character is like a forgotten character from, you know, the year before.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, Bobby saves his life.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was going to kill himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, this episode is kind of like, Bobby, yeah, she saved him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what he wanted was to be part of the gang.
[SPEAKER_01]: What he wanted was to have friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: What he wanted was long.
[SPEAKER_01]: and he doesn't, like they barely even checked on him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even after he develops this newfound confidence for a sharpening time and gives Buffy the award of the protector award at the prom, what happens in this episode?
[SPEAKER_01]: The story is flipped.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember when you give Jonathan that protector award at the prom, like it's such a commentary on
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's forgotten people who don't get a chance to change their lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: And where his buffet is getting all these opportunities to change again and again and again and again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just find that that conflict very, very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: In addition to the whole, this is a Mary Sue episode and making fun of the whole fan fiction like, you know, oh, what if I came into the episode that was buffet's best friend, like the kind of the whole Mary Sue at all?
[SPEAKER_01]: parodying that on top of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a serious undertone, especially because at the end of his episode, even Jonathan himself is beating to forget everything that happened in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's forgotten again, despite all of this, at the end, he's not going to be the friend again.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's still on the outside looking in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even though he comes up with an amazing revelation that us as the fans, the people watching the show go, oh, this is how you defeat Adam.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they even going to remember this five minutes from now?
[SPEAKER_01]: He saw the whole thing and yet that could be gone to the wind as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Jonathan is like a big, a big player in this episode for many reasons, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It seems like he's the guy now that the scobies are going to like, oh, there's too many demons for us to handle, too many vampires for us to handle.
[SPEAKER_04]: We need to pull in Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: Every he's kind of like the default leader now instead of Buffy.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he does more than that beyond like the paparazzi and everyone wanting his autograph and all of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: He does have a lot of
[SPEAKER_04]: one-on-one time with our characters, Sarah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like, two of those people are Riley and Buffy, because even though this episode feels a bit kind of off the beaten path, there is the continuation of the story of Riley and Buffy and the fallout of Riley unknowingly sleeping with faith, sprain and Buffy's body and how Buffy feels about that and Riley's reaction to that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Firstly, I think a lot of things about Buffy age surprisingly well for them like a lot of it does more so than other shows we've covered Sarah, but I do think something we should point out that it doesn't age particularly well is that Riley is not treated as much of a victim as he should be considering he did not consent to sleeping with faiths mind either just like
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, just like Buffy is upset that Riley slept with Faith.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, Riley didn't even know it was Faith.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he couldn't possibly have said, yes, you know, and so a lot of this episode revolves around Buffy trying to parse out her feelings about what Riley did.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm saying that in like quotes is like, you know, what he accidentally did.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's really interesting there that we get two different conversations with Jonathan, where he's the one rolling out advice to them, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, yeah, I think that it is, I think that Jonathan kind of helps our characters process a couple of different things throughout the episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do appreciate what you're saying about Riley, because I think that we, because like my fews bodies, the one that got snatched, and she's the one that feels like she got cheated on, we do forget that Riley was part of this really uncomfortable
[SPEAKER_03]: situation as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of it's like positioning Riley to be the one that needs to be forgiven.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: He apologizes over and over and over again in this episode, which yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I understand him feeling guilty, but also he's a victim as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like I remember saying in the last episode, like, oh, man, like, I'll be really bummed out if like, but he has a really hard time getting past this or if it becomes a big thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know exactly what Jonathan said, but he really did feel like the advice that he was giving, tracked, like it felt like good advice that was also fair advice, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think AJ is like, and especially because like you were bringing up AJ at the very end of the episode, Jonathan is saying, like, listen, I know I gave you some advice.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I still think you should like take it, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so interesting that like he is the person that they turn to when never in a million years, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like a buffie would probably turn to Willow and she does.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Riley would probably turn to, oh, maybe he wouldn't turn to those like the other guys in the initiative anymore, because they're not really as close anymore, but they're kind of mean.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, one of the best.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a big time, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the guys is just like trying to like follow orders.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, AJ, do you know what these guys are named?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I just call him like Riley's buddy and like that other guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like that might be a little disrespectful because everybody does have a name, but yeah, what do you know will Riley's buddies are named?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's one of those things where I'm at the age now where I can forget names that you tell me two seconds ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that he's he's not gone from angels.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a character at age.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's also the only black eye on the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like, yeah, it's it's might my brain power just just goes out the window.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting to me that, yeah, like these are not guys that Riley would turn to, you know, the part of this brotherhood, like we were inseparable, but you know, the reader goes away and it's like, well, we're going to blame Buffy and he's not going to blame Buffy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It goes back to your whole circle of blame that's going on here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say one of the things that's interesting about the whole Riley Buffy situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, with the whole caveat that no one's going to remember this episode, because the reality is kind of wisping, but I think Bobby has this kind of realization in the middle of this episode where I think she's getting a little angrier at Riley, and it's completely unfair to Riley, but what she's saying to herself is, look, when Giles turned into this demon, I was able to see through, and I was able to see that Giles was in there, like why couldn't you see through
[SPEAKER_01]: When when when a boy like why couldn't and as this episode going on where she seems to be the one who's like oh and you know something's not quite right here and she's trying to figure it out and you know even the
[SPEAKER_01]: one of the negatives is episode is like, even the magical Tara and Willow, who were able to figure it out last week, couldn't figure it out this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, I thought she was as powerful as you could sense these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, no, they couldn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't like that step back in their development.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, Buffy's the one who figured this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just think there's something, you know, so much is going, making her even angrier, Riley, for not being able to figure out and notice the difference, even though that's unfair.
[SPEAKER_04]: And completely, you're completely correct, AJ in terms of like, in her mind, she's thinking I was able to see that that was Giles, but also I just don't, I think it's more of an apples and oranges sort of situation because with Giles, he was a completely, he was a demon.
[SPEAKER_04]: He looked totally different versus Riley is having a conversation with a person who looks exactly like Buffy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why would he, why would he think it wasn't Buffy?
[SPEAKER_04]: you know like he had no reason to think it wouldn't be her and he he we as we established the last episode when he's like wait who is faith like he doesn't know faith for most of the wall like he has no idea that like her signature stuff is like leather pants and a vampy lip you know like he doesn't know her he doesn't know what to look out for um and I think
[SPEAKER_04]: At least I liked what I will give the show credit for and I guess buffy credit for is I like that she's upset that she's upset versus just being angry or just being like annoyed with Riley.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is saying I want to be over this but I don't know how and I feel like that's a big step up from just being him down and making him feel worse and making him feel guilty.
[SPEAKER_04]: She knows that he didn't intentionally do anything wrong
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I like that that is the way the character acts because I think, again, I've said this so many times, like a lesser show would go the easier route of she's just angry at him and she takes it out on him.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this feels like way more of an emotionally intelligent character, kind of realizing what their own feelings are, being able to identify how you're feeling and trying to solve it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm going to give extend that credit as well to Riley, because both Buffy and Riley
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is like a great, this is a sign of action.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to give you going to be very happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a sign of a very healthy relationship when each party member is like
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm upset because things aren't going well and I'm actively seeking out someone to give me advice to fix things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like neither of them is like just, you know, hoisting blame on the other person and then being like, okay, I do anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what am I supposed to do?
[SPEAKER_04]: Both of them are trying to get advice to then fix what's wrong, which I was really impressed with.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, part of Riley's tactic, in my opinion, seems to be just going around shirtless.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, so, you know, to each their own, um, what is the root?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let it be.
[SPEAKER_03]: AJ, I am dying to know what, what is your stance on the Riley?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you a ruffy fan?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was so funny because to prepare for this episode, I went back and I read the Q&A I did with Jane Spencer and her email about these two episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I actually asked the question, so say that you were a fan of a show and you wanted to like, you know, change the course of the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you wanted Riley to go away and ever be seen again because you hate to like to see her.
[SPEAKER_01]: specifically, of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was like, is it what is the reason you're not?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm really interested in knowing I personally feel like it's it's the a little bit of a lack of chemistry and I find him to be a little plane for me, but I don't know if that's what everybody feels besides Sarah who obviously loves him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say, I don't like Mark Lucas as an actor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I never liked the character.
[SPEAKER_01]: He got better in the role over overtime.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, yeah, there's no chemistry between them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Never saw it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's nuts.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no.
[SPEAKER_01]: No spoilers, but next week's episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh no, I know, yeah, the next week's episode Sarah is, if you'll remember, way, way back in time, when we had Hannah on, and she was asking for another episode to sign up, and I heard the word wild, and I thought she was asking for where the wild things are, and her reaction was pretty much that, and she was like, no, no, no, no, no, wild that heart, not where the wild things are.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this next episode we have on our horizon is I think known to be really awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I do think there is like, I will defend Riley a little bit, and maybe, I don't know if I'm defending the actor or the character, but like, I do think there is just this like, boyish earnestness.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so fast.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I like.
[SPEAKER_04]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's what you're looking for.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Meanwhile, I see like a very like spicy, intense scene between like buffy and spike.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I am like, oh, that's what I want to watch.
[SPEAKER_04]: But again, teach their own and I can understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: I totally get now the the ruffy the ruffy stands because Sarah the other thing I wanted to bring up about Riley.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was so pleased that we got the answer to our question of is he still taking those meds.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was so pleased that the show addressed this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, like I know I shouldn't be surprised at this point, like we're four seasons in.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I was so happy they didn't just let that storyline just fly off into the ether that they were like, nope, he's not even eating the food they're giving him because he doesn't trust that they're not trying to like secretly drug him.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was so happy and very proud of Riley because how easy would it be to just eat that food and like be super strong?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the thing is that Riley, I truly believe and is especially, I truly believe he is a good guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: He is a good guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he is too good for Buffy, because I, not in a way that I think like Buffy's not good enough for him.
[SPEAKER_03]: What I mean is that I do think that Buffy's going to want that passion, that grit, that like little dash of evil, that interest.
[SPEAKER_03]: He is too normal.
[SPEAKER_03]: In an ideal world, the fact that Riley has this military experience and he's like has his, like has the ability to fight and respect her and doesn't care that she's like ten times stronger than him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I deal worlds that should be enough, but we all know when you're an eighteen year old girl.
[SPEAKER_03]: or you're in your early twenties, you're toxic as fuck and you choose the spikes of the world or you choose the guy that barely has a job and like maybe like just got fired from Walgreens and like, you know, it's like
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like the guy that's like not the good guy or like the good guy for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: We all but he's hot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, maybe it's the guy you and yeah, that's like what you go after, but Riley is husband material and Buffy is not ready.
[SPEAKER_03]: She said college.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like a man that's husband material.
[SPEAKER_04]: Riley is the guy you bring home and introduce to your parents and like them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Elias the guy that you're like, this guy is stable.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's steady.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's kind.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, those are the, like, when you're in, like, your first year college, like you're looking to fuck around, you're looking to make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like, Riley isn't to mistake.
[SPEAKER_04]: Spike is a mistake.
[SPEAKER_04]: Riley is not a mistake.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, I, I.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get the the other side of it, but also you have to like respect the fact that like if I'm like who if we're trying to find who is the best match for Buffy I firmly believe it is Riley like I cannot imagine her finding somebody that is as nice and evenly matched, but I don't think that's what Miss Buffy girl is going to be looking for.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, at least they're not like star crossed lover sort of like always going to end in tragedy in the way that her and Angel were like that was just they were only gonna ever end poorly and so that and they were like social group EGA I could not they were way too schmoopy it killed me I don't find Riley and Buffy to be as schmoopy although she did get on my narrative and she's like look at him eating that twinky like he's gonna be punished like okay enough
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, and, you know, Buffy made her mistake with Parker earlier in the season, certainly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we all know that that was, you know, bad news.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she think she's over-corrected.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of the problem with this relationship where it stands right now, I mean, even now, I don't think that Riley believes he's good enough for her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's always there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it makes it that makes me watching a little unappealing.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's so fair, though.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's interesting because Sarah, we complimented him on like he takes it in stride when Buffy could beat the shit out of him, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he takes that in stride.
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It must be even harder now that he
[SPEAKER_04]: is even less strong than he was, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's really difficult and for him to for that not to even be in consideration for like what is causing strife in their relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think is actually a credit to him as a character.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a good old boy, but you know, sometimes we don't end up with a good old boys and it's just a fact of life, but yeah, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do like Jonathan being involved in that relationship he seems to be freaking
[SPEAKER_03]: everywhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's definitely feels like we're in the Twilight Zone because it just gets progressively weirder and weirder as the episode went on with all of the Jonathan sap over exposure.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did like the paparazzi.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was pretty funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like it was like he was
[SPEAKER_03]: a like military informant, but also like a Hollywood actor, but also like a star basketball player.
[SPEAKER_04]: He does it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like a, he's like a dolly part in, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's a country artist.
[SPEAKER_04]: She owns a freaking theme park.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's, she's an every woman.
[SPEAKER_04]: She can do it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: Truly, truly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, it was so bizarre, honestly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Those are some of my favorites.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that as much as it like it got a little grading by the end, some of my favorite things were just how much they were leaning into the bit like one of my absolute favorite things was finding out that onions and are we arguing because on your moaned Jonathan's name like while they were being intimate and
[SPEAKER_04]: it killed me it was so funny like when he's at the bronze and everyone is mesmerized by this man on stage like the fact that at the end of the episode rightly says I felt like I was too tall like
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just so, so funny because it is so opposite the trope of like, you know, men lie about their height and always want to be taller and women love tall men.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, that being a whole trope, I thought was, I really like how they flipped it on its head.
[SPEAKER_04]: And because, you know, Jonathan is a short king.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I just, I thought that was, I was tickled by it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really was.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, that, that cracking up, especially seeing him as head of the initiative, when like he, you know, you got these like beefy military men and then like the shortest guy in the room who's like, you know, a petite guy is at the head of the table, really did crack me up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, AJ, I want to shift gears a little bit and I want to talk about you brought up Willow and Tara and I want to I want to bring them back up again because I've been very much on team like I feel like the Tara stuff is a red hearing like I don't actually think she's bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that like the reason that she threw the dust under the bed a couple of episodes ago and hid that from Willow.
[SPEAKER_04]: I felt like there was like a reason behind it like maybe she
[SPEAKER_04]: She has some sort of demon history there that would have showed up.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I got a little bit of a red flag this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: And here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it's, I guess it is canon.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like, are people going to remember it because of the whole Jonathan thing?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, when Willow is having a conversation with Tara and she's just telling her about like all the Scooby adventure stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tara is like specifically asking about Buffy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like in a way where, on one hand, you could read it as, oh, she's like being a very kind friend of a friend.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like, oh, she's interested in a Buffy's well-being.
[SPEAKER_04]: She cares about her, whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or you could look at it as like, hmm, she's asking a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is she so close to Willow?
[SPEAKER_04]: Willow's BFF's so Buffy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this a way to get close to Buffy?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think so, but I feel like I had to throw it out there, AJ.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, and of course, you know, zip zip the lip.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, you'll just have to see, I'm not gonna spoil it.
[SPEAKER_01]: One way or the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think, you know, I think, I think last week's episode also was kind of lonely, you know, like, why don't you introduce me to your friends?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if we're together or why won't you?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I think if we've established that Willow talks about Buffy, like, you know, oh my god, Buffy, this Buffy that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, yeah, one, one, can I meet Buffy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can't, and we'll go to the Bronx when she's not here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, oh, she is your crap, you know, kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that's more of the of what's going on there, at least at this point, you know, red herrings notwithstanding.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just, it's a relationship, it's a new relationship and it's like, yes, we use the wick as, you know, code for what's really going on here.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, hey, I'm, I'm not embarrassed by any of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you embarrassed?
[SPEAKER_01]: fight by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet so far Tara has been type of personality who like, you know, well, I'm content to stay at home and never leave the house really, but I still want to meet your friends like so yeah, it's that it's that we're kind of, and is there as there are cultural stigma on this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, there is more so at that time than present day, but yeah, it certainly is, it's again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Willow is not used to this, you know, she just come off this, this whole Oz heart break and is questioning, you know, even though she may think she's kind of gay and an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and Sarah, part of me also, and I guess there's two ways to look at it, but like there are so many moments this episode where now that Tara is is a little more present with the rest of the Scoobies, I feel like there are so many moments where there is such obvious like chemistry, sexual tension, whatever you want to call it between Tara and Willow, that like
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like Buffy as her best friend should be like, hey, how's it going with Tara?
[SPEAKER_04]: Or like, but maybe you're feeling like you're putting a little on the spot.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you why.
[SPEAKER_03]: My mom came out.
[SPEAKER_03]: as a lesbian as six years old.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was telling all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was always out.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was always at these women's clubs.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was always doing this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: She would like stay over the night at her friend's house.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like my arms like just getting drunk all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like she's just like
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, having a night out.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, she had a girl in the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and then when she finally came out like, number one night, like my therapist called to before I did, but like when she finally came out to me, I was like, oh, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that especially when you're in it,
[SPEAKER_03]: I think or like when you have like a preconceived thing like she just had, you know, Willow just had this like big affair with Zander.
[SPEAKER_03]: She had a crush on Zanders and she was a child.
[SPEAKER_03]: She had this like love affair with with Oz.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think that like you just sometimes just don't see it that way when you're when you're in it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like even though you're that close to that friend sometimes you just like don't realize it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just feel like there are times when Buffy like
[SPEAKER_04]: And we've talked about this in the past where so much of stuff revolves around Buffy, obviously not this episode, it's Jonathan's episode, but like usually that's Buffy, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the whole all the stories, all the everything happening revolves around Buffy and Buffy is like
[SPEAKER_04]: little like main character energy and there are times where we've said that and like Willow has felt like I'm just like side character in my own life and I always feel like I want to put a little bit more of the onus on Buffy to like she should be the one reaching out to her friend like she should be the one taking that step because
[SPEAKER_04]: Willow is like timid in that way and I think never really wants to like grab the spotlight and shove it on herself.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, there's it's really touchy and it's very difficult as AJ said like trying to figure out who you are and you could just scare Willow or like make her uncomfortable or make her fear like you're putting her on the spot.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was just something I thought was really interesting because we've never really seen Tara hanging out with the Scoobies.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, it's been made a plot point that like
[SPEAKER_04]: Willow doesn't really want to introduce her and she wants to keep these things separate.
[SPEAKER_04]: But this episode, she seemed pretty integrated into them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I just thought it was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like they're all kind of, AJ, it's almost like there.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like three couples hanging out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that was the vibe it gave off, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, and on top of that, you know, you have Buffy so into Riley and yet upset that Riley couldn't tell the difference, but she herself can't tell that something's going on with Willow because partially she's obsessed with her own life, but also she is the slayer and she's got this really important stuff that she also has to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not her fault as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And from Willow's point of view, it's like, look, I brought Oz around.
[SPEAKER_01]: And everything was great for a while, but because we were on all these dangerous situations and, you know, all the stuff and everything all of a sudden, oh great, you know, and I wake up one day and he's in a cage with another woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, well crap, maybe if I don't bring her around, she won't get infected by that same sort of stuff too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe this is just for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can keep it safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we feel like on this show that no, you can't ever do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one is truly safe just from existing, but I think the longer she can go without exposing her, the safer I think maybe she feels like this is a way to, you know, to retreat away from all that stuff in her current little place.
[SPEAKER_04]: Although I will say, we do see Tara get into a bit of conflict this episode, getting attacked by these demons.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is all alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sarah, Tara gets the best witch award.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_04]: We already knew, but like, we're just gonna reiterate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: This, she's like being attacked all by her lonesome and she's able to get, have the wear with all to be like, poof, smoky magic on you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I will escape into a janitor closet.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, like I'm serious.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is the best willow.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know Willow's a new witch.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not her fault.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's learning.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like she kind of blows as a witch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she kind of just does.
[SPEAKER_03]: She doesn't have those innate natural abilities.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, a tarot does like a rat Amy does.
[SPEAKER_04]: Although yet again, we don't get to see someone being like, hey, Tara, I have this friend who's a rat.
[SPEAKER_04]: Can you help?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I just ask you all just ask if rat Amy was really a good witch.
[SPEAKER_03]: She wouldn't have been able to turn herself back even if she was a rat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like usually there's verbal components to spell Sarah, if she's weak, that's not going to do anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we even zander can cast magic by the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her mom is literally stuck in a trophy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like the two of them together are really in some bad situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, that wasn't Tara.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you're from around.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm talking about, right, Amy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, I'm getting free in my mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, what if Tara and Ratania are related?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because didn't Tara talk about her mom being a very powerful rich.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, when there's sisters.
[SPEAKER_04]: What about the pop point?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone listening is like taking their headphones off and just sort of like, you know what being interesting because it's just like I'm so happy that like my wenge of a sister who is like super popular is like trapped as a rat.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now I'm free.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's so fun listening to you and you know obviously I'm just biting tongue really hard on all this stuff but you know it is a traditionally on this show and it's an episode like this where again when you when you know what happens all the way down the line and come back and see all of the hidden little thing
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't even know if it was intentional when they wrote this episode to see the future, but because the show has such a memory and always goes back and pulls from episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the episodes like this that they pull for.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were about six or seven different lines in this episode and comments and looks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, the fact that you are looking to everything is just fantastic, you know, and sometimes you're wildly off base and sometimes you nail it perfectly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just love the fact that you are, look, please continue to look.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll never forget, Rattini.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like she's always on her minds, just know that people, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll never forget her.
[SPEAKER_04]: We love her so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: We want justice for her, truly.
[SPEAKER_04]: But Tara does help out this episode though, because we have the whole thing with the symbol, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: We're Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: We see the symbol on Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the same symbol that's on the demons.
[SPEAKER_04]: And after the Scooby's do some research, they find out it's an augmentation spell.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that Jonathan has cast it on himself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Meanwhile, Buffy is already starting to be a little suspicious.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what's with this guy?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why does everyone love him?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, why is he like more famous than me?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, why is he the go to?
[SPEAKER_04]: the frickin' slayer, you know, like Buffy is starting to figure it out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it turns out that I like this Sarah, this balance, right, there always has to be a balance, what's the Thanos gift, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: There has to be balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so when Jonathan made himself the best at everything, of course you then had to make an evil demon at the same time because the world must balance out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the evil demon just starts like creeping everywhere, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, he's stalking a stalker, which is kind of funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to Jonathan's fans is like trying to like peek into his house and the demon just comes out of nowhere and attacks her.
[SPEAKER_04]: They attack Tara.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're all trying.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the whole time, Buffy is like, hmm, Jonathan's acting a little special.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I feel like he knows more than he's letting on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so they do team up.
[SPEAKER_04]: They a job because Jonathan offers like him and Buffy are going to go figure this out together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um,
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, they do, it's interesting how it all resolves.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I really loved the inclusion, AJ of Anya in this, because it makes all the sense in the world for Buffy to approach Anya, who is like this, the man-hating demon I forget, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: She does like the wish stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: This feels like a wish thing, this feels like a wish demony thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it makes so much sense to approach her.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're the scenes they had together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Lavanya with all my heart.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love her so so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Her being like, oh, you're still here.
[SPEAKER_04]: She doesn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that she of all, she's one of the only people that doesn't like worship, Buffy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like she's just like, oh, you're here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like she makes no qualms about like, I'm dating Zander, but I don't have to be friends with any of the rest of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do what you need to do and like, I'm gonna read my book about Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was great aging.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's stuck.
[SPEAKER_01]: She stuck is this high school girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, post high school, but like she's she's luck.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not what she has what she's in for life in several lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just have to be stuck here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and yeah, this is all I've been there done that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, alternate reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: her and she doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_01]: She really doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is great that nothing in this reality is so different that it changes the backstory of these characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just the glamour spell that Jonathan has done and I think part of it is like
[SPEAKER_01]: It really doesn't make sense, you know, when we find out, like, oh, you know, I was in therapy and, you know, I met this, I met somebody who taught me how to do this spell and I kind of do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is this spell?
[SPEAKER_01]: This spell is not for him to like be the most famous, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's for him to get attention and to be the hero and in a way, in a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: by giving up the spell, you know, so he achieves a goal and the tragedy of it all is that he achieves his goal and he won't remember it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's really sad, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He has an opportunity like at one point to like shove Buffy into a pit and like remain the hero of the world and keep everything intact.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he doesn't do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: He helps her and he gives up what he really, really wanted and tracks with this again, this tertiary character.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it still tracks with who he was when we met him in high school that he feels like just invisible.
[SPEAKER_04]: It sucks to feel that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: It sucks to feel alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: It sucks to feel like no one notices you, no one cares about you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, he would want more than that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to be selfless enough, yes, he like did this fall in the first place.
[SPEAKER_04]: But to be selfless enough to like experience all of that, like the amount of fame he created the internet, Sarah, like the amount of fame this guy has.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he has women mowning his name while making friends, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he's able to give all of that up, which is a costume with that guy old though.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's amazing now because he's never experienced this.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's been in his opinion.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's been absolutely invisible to everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it would be cool for a certain amount of time, but eventually it has to wear thin.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it was nice that he does get to
[SPEAKER_03]: be the hero in a way because he is the one that gives it up, but he's also one that started this whole mess.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's sad like after the fact, after everything goes back to normal, everyone's like mad at him, but also we know that eventually everyone's going to forget, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that just like the thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a glimmer of hope there at the end because Buffy doesn't have to walk over when she sees him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she does finally take the moment and go, you know, I'm going to see how he's doing throughout all this because that's what the hero was supposed to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of not what she did in earlier episodes involving him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, in those earlier episodes,
[SPEAKER_01]: when Willow is interrogating him back when they were trying to figure out if he was, you know, what she's saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have fantasy where you're big on famous and everybody works for you and everybody in the world where all's found you was like, yeah, who gave him that idea was well on the first place?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Danny, Danny strong acting in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, who knew he was this good of an actor?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because Jonathan's superstar is so, like, confident in control.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that last scene when he reverts back to the Jonathan that we know is like, it's like watching a different actor.
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: He looks shrink inside of himself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's very, yeah, he does a really great job.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, he's freely well done like there's a, I will say, I'm in a joke.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, who did this actor have to pay off to get this episode created on this like very famous show all about him, but he does a great job like you're asking a lot of
[SPEAKER_04]: a very small character in a past episode, or episodes, but like still.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's in the background a lot, and he is so much just put upon him in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he is carrying a lot of this episode on his shoulders.
[SPEAKER_04]: He does a great job.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is ridiculous and silly, but he's doing a great job.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I did really like the ending, like him kind of making that sacrifice.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I believe, because
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, we can line him because he did this in the first place.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think he knew that like a demon would be created.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like in his mind, it's like, I'm just making myself the hero.
[SPEAKER_04]: He didn't know that like, oh, then there would be this like other side of the thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I am curious at the point where Buffy involved him to try to track down the demon entity.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like he had to have known it was going to come back to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, he knew this symbol, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because he had the symbol on him.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for you, that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because, you know, he was trying to be like, no, no, no, I'll take care of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to think about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he wouldn't get found out.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then, Buffy persisted.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then, obviously, like, he knew who was going to get caught.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, he was giving, it's almost like he leaned into, he's like, I know it's inevitable.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess that's my question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, did he know that the jig was up at the end of it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes back to you can't escape who you are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he has imposter syndrome and he has no self confidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even with all this augmentation and all this stuff that was going on, you know, he knew who he was and he knows that he knew this wasn't him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he couldn't be your dad.
[SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't be the bad guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if he wants to be the hero and he can be the hero.
[SPEAKER_01]: But by being the hero, he's going to go back to who he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's not, he may not like who he is, but there's got to be a better way.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least, at least his solution this time wasn't, I'll just jump into that Kravass and kill myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was, you know, let me try and help save today, which is progress.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you could be like Uber famous like Jonathan for a superstar for a day, would you give it a go?
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I would hate this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I would not like people coming up to me asking for autographs.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't like paparazzi like this so invasive.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like I'm, I'm like, I'm not a fake.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not a private person, but like I am not a big fan of just being approached in the wild.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't, I don't think I would like this at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I think the anonymity factor like I look I have been in another life I was I was mascot for the New York Mets for four years and so like I know what it's like to be a superstar that everyone's like oh, let me take a picture take a picture
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, a few minutes later, I could take the costume off and walk past the same people and know who I am and that's perfect.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's the benefit of that costume, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Also, now I really appreciate you while you were able to sit out in ninety five degree heat and be fine with it because you were in a Mr. Met costume in ungodly temperatures.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: High tolerance for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do want to mention Adam.
[SPEAKER_04]: He does appear in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we do get a little taste of the Adam stuff we get Jonathan again, Superstar Jonathan says that he noticed that like Adam doesn't eat and he knows that Adam has a uranium to three-five derived power source in his chest.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so like he has to be completely destroyed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it reminds me of I can't remember the baddie.
[SPEAKER_04]: AJ will probably remember the baddie where they had to like take all his limbs and separate them and like put them somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's it, the judge.
[SPEAKER_04]: It reminds me of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're like, we have to completely annihilate him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which it's like, I mean, I probably could have told you that, but like, sure, okay, thanks Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we figured that out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Adam is the only one who is not under this like spell.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, who cares about Jonathan?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, he says that, yeah, he's like, everything is lies.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know what's going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's like he's like an evolved being who can't be put under the spell, which does AJ make me a little concerned that like, okay, do spells not work on him.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like if this spell doesn't work on him, does that mean all the spells don't work on him?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because what the heck are we low and terror going to be doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like they're supposed to be back up with the spells.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I think, you know, every year you got to up the stakes with the big bat and you know, whereas you just came from having the mayor who
[SPEAKER_01]: in embrace being affected by magical creatures and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sure, now when we're going to want up it, this is some sort of automaton who just doesn't get infected by anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So have, you know, at least they've given you the in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And whether we remember it or not, it's a different story.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, you know, there's a power source in there, explode the power source.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go boom.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so there isn't a kill switch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's not invincible.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just going to be really, really difficult.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, how are you feeling about Adam?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I know he's he is the big bone that people have to pick with the shores.
[SPEAKER_04]: So how are you feeling about him now that he's getting more of a storyline?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of, he's just, he's just there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like he's background noise for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't really care about him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just have like so much more interest in like pretty much everything else about this show that like, I just like can't be bothered.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like I am, I am so fully down the ruffy rabbit hole that like I
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that is where my passion and interest lies.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't hate it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, he's like, I don't know some dude.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that I'm very aware that like, what we could have had, what might have been.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, in that sucks, but also once again, I'm too
[SPEAKER_03]: in the weeds with with Riley to camera.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's just nowhere near as interesting as most of the other villains we've encountered.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so yeah, like obviously we do our villain rankings at the end of the season.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like of course, if he's our big bad and not counting Walsh, then yeah, of course, he's the the lowest on the rankings if we're comparing us to a
[SPEAKER_03]: mayor to a, drew Lulu to a daddy vams.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, of course, he's like the worst of the bunch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, but also, I mean, like, the big bad is not what makes me like the Buffy the vampire slayer.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like, of course, that might not be like, I might not be the average Buffy fan.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, we all know that like, I'm kind of in here watching a supernatural show when I'm,
[SPEAKER_03]: like I'm I'm here for the teen drama, but that's not what like the average fluffy fantasy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, you know, this wasn't a full story arc where it was planned that he was going to be the opposite.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this he wasn't supposed to be the big bad the whole way throughout and kind of tap dancing and adjusting on the fly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that I will say.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a complete work, it fits in, you know, I think it fits in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think next season, this big bad is probably my favorite and the whole story arc.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then people debate six a lot and I actually like six a lot in terms of what they chose with the big bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's a natural progression at least, and you know, your mileage may vary on the success factor, but at least they're trying to make make him a lot more formidable now than he was a couple of episodes ago when he wasn't supposed to be the big bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I, I would assume that like his original attention intention was just to be a tool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, yeah, he was washes tool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he was a weapon.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so was Riley, like supposedly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So technically, you can play with the whole military industrial complex was the big bad this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if I, if I were to combine Adam with like the whole initiative, essentially, then like I don't really have a problem with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I don't really have complaints.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's different because the thing is is that it's interesting because it is so different from the vampire big bads from the mayor who's a demon big bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like a little bit more
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's more sciencey than grown.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's grown a little more grand.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which, you know, I think is fine because I think that it's interesting that it's different.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I would be curious if like everything else for the rest of the seasons are more go back to like the supernatural aspect of it rather than a science fiction aspect of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe that's why it's like the outlier, why it's like,
[SPEAKER_03]: not light but I don't I don't have a problem like I happen to have a problem with like really anything this season at all like I'm happy is I can be and I I wonder if it's like a case of like
[SPEAKER_03]: are buffy fans to serious sometimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, are they not here for the laws?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm kind of just here for the laws.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe like we take our buffy to seriously sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think kusher core audience and, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, the people who are watching the show because they love seeing, you know, buffeting angel together are not necessarily watching the show for the same reason that other people are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think from a plot standpoint, the sci-fi, the supernatural, that whole thing, I think this show never fails to hit on all cylinders, but, you know, it had to lead into the fact that it's a WB type show.
[SPEAKER_01]: that that's the audience that you were also trying to hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, certainly when you had those overly soapy scenes in the first couple of seasons, it's like, okay, that maybe not wasn't for me, but it was for an audience that kept the show on the air.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm willing to tolerate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the thing I will give the show credit for as far as the big bad of this season is at the very least I feel like there's been seasons that have been much more of we're just going to drop off the main storyline for like six episodes and then bring it back around.
[SPEAKER_04]: At the very least, the initiative and all of that has been a consistent presence in this season, so that I've never been like, but what are we angling at?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what is the story this season?
[SPEAKER_04]: Cause they're, and I'm, and I'm, I've liked every season.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm not really shading the seasons too harshly, but it's like, there have been times where I'm like, okay, I feel like we're messing about a little bit too much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm ready to dig into the meat and maybe Adam came a little bit out of the field.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't, you can't.
[SPEAKER_04]: really blame them when like stuff fell through with an actor on the show that was supposed to be the big bad because if the keep wall shows the big bad, that's fabulous.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's been around the whole time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's it's incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I will give them that much credit that like I've never had to say, what are we doing here?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like where is our big bad?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's always been an integral part of this season.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even when we had a stupid episode like beer bad, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, love.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: And even if there was fluff like we enjoyed the fluff, you know, it was like peanut butter and fluff like it was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, Jazz, you can enjoy the fluff.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you enjoy the fluff, why don't you marry it?
[SPEAKER_04]: really loving the season and I don't think people are going to change my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think every season I think builds on the last and it's the problem is is that again, when you're watching it, the switch in the middle kind of end three weeks to this episode, really next episode and it's just like this is what we get.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that kind of sour people in the moment, again, next episode,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're probably one of my least favorite of them all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I can't wait.
[SPEAKER_04]: Listen, Sarah, we're going to stand it like we did go fish.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's my thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if everybody hates something, then I'm just going to go the other way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to find a way to love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm going to try to really love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll see.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anything else about this episode before we do a speed run of a courty's corner?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, yeah, I just said, going back when you're done, if you watch this episode again at the end of the halt, but it all, you'll see some things that like, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think look for that going forward, especially when you get to the season finale of this season, that's such a great episode because of this whole
[SPEAKER_01]: See, I don't know if this one was intended to see it all the future, but the season finale certainly was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's so much in there that at the time we were all just like, what did we just watch?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, but looking back, you just like, oh my, you magnificent writing writers room.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's shift gears to Courtney's corner where we watched eternity season one episode, seventeen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Basically, Courtney is not the best actor, but that's okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: We still love her.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is admiring this other actress Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rebecca has this stalker.
[SPEAKER_04]: She has this chance encounter with Angel.
[SPEAKER_04]: Angel and her definitely have some sort of chemistry.
[SPEAKER_04]: She finds out he's a vampire very quickly because my guy cannot avoid a mirror and
[SPEAKER_04]: She, of course, she's getting stalked and I knew what's her agent right away.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like this guy's shifty.
[SPEAKER_04]: He has shifty as hell.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, he has shifty eyes and all the basically what happens is she is like she's very famous, but also as we are want to do
[SPEAKER_04]: We age, gone for bed, we age.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, how that business is there, it's always what the newest hotness is.
[SPEAKER_04]: It has the tightest skin.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so she's like feeling the pressure of the job she's in.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she decides in her infinite wisdom.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how she plans to shoot things in the sun, but she is like, I'm going to become a vampire because all be immortal.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think this is a great idea for her to quite honestly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like this was the move.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want to be eternally young, then become a vampire.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that it's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, some people opt for fillers about ox, some become a vampire.
[SPEAKER_04]: just don't look like the logistics of like shooting on set like all this other stuff like what are you thinking Rebecca like you're on and show the way she goes about this age I she drugs angel to try to like loosen his inhibitions and somehow
[SPEAKER_04]: because we know the way that he turns into Angelus is by fucking and by like having the best time of his life.
[SPEAKER_04]: And motion.
[SPEAKER_04]: And motion is Jessica, whatever, motion.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep, sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's emotional and he's so happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so apparently this whatever I forget is X to see or something that basically makes him so, so, so happy that he turns back.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a moment of pure happiness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so stupid.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love, I mean, who knew all he needed was some molly to be rolling.
[SPEAKER_04]: Truly, I'm not, I'm not advocating for this in real life.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying that out loud.
[SPEAKER_04]: Drug him every episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love angelicery.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know this.
[SPEAKER_04]: and jealous over Angel Angel playing boring white toast give me and jealous I love a baddie and the moment I heard him like you know he we couldn't see his face but he was like near her neck I'm like oh no oh he has been face oh I'm ready for it oh it's Angelace and I was I was thrilled I love not that I wanted him to hurt Courtney's feelings okay I'll be all know I love Courtney but when he's just like so cruel and mean
[SPEAKER_03]: I really love it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Be me to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, yes, be me to me daddy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's why I want to see.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, AJ, can you remind us, you watched Angel, I assume, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I feel like we've definitely talked about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So do you remember, do you recall this episode?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't recall this episode, and again, I mean, as you're describing it, I know I've seen it, but there's nothing like the problem is, is that this was the first season of Angel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next two episodes of Angel, I mean, I don't know how much spoilery you want, but the next two episodes of Angel are picking up from, you know, you were saying, oh, that's story about faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: We definitely got instructions.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll have to look from a friend of like what watch order to watch.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to be next.
[SPEAKER_04]: You kind of have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it kind of makes sense to now watch the next episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called five by five.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you understand that's it's.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just tell us exactly what's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Angel, but the title.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what does it think they promoted this as the huge thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, where do they go?
[SPEAKER_01]: Faith went to Angel for two weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then our, you know, that story line then resolves itself in the two more episodes on the road of Buffy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: These are all intertwined and incestuous at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of in order to get the full season four slash season one, you kind of have to now follow faith there for two weeks, watch those then come back here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, actually, I would watch next week's Buffy first, then go there for two and then hook back here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're, you're caught up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next week, but it is kind of part of this, the, the, the Buffy story as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I believe this, those episodes were on Michael's list.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when you come back and see the Yoko factor in two weeks here, you're going to be like, wait, what did I miss?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was on age.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, thank goodness gracious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is there, can you think of another show that is this heavily linked to like another set of shows?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, it just so reminds me of T.G.I.F.
[SPEAKER_03]: like those of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sabrina and like boy means world and all that stuff but like they've done stunts like this obviously with with the long orders where they started on one and go to the other and that's sort of thing and certainly you had the arrowverse where you had the arrow on the flash and they would like both part once here part two's there and that's just kind of what they did at that time and so like said normally I would say you know you don't want to watch it but you know there's
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just important stuff going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Listen, I'm in for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm watching Angel.
[SPEAKER_04]: Am I watching as closely as I'm watching Buffy?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, because it's a lesser show.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we have a lot of things we're doing now.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I'm just going to say.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the same thing we went through with Buffy's season one with people being like, it gets better.
[SPEAKER_04]: We promise.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the same story with Angel and every first season of a show is a little bit of trial and error.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we'll keep plugging along.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that Cordelia needs to get a new career aspiration?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: I hate to say that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I do.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think she is doing herself a disservice.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't think acting is her thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think she's much more of a people person.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I do think she's she thrives in like a social environment.
[SPEAKER_04]: So finding a way to leverage those skills maybe.
[SPEAKER_04]: sales or something like there's she could be doing more than not that I think isn't you know, but you don't I mean like I don't think she has the right skills for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think she has skills and other arenas that she's not exploring.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Eventually this business is going to take off and then she won't need a side gig.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's the one who's trying to put the business on the map more than literally anybody else.
[SPEAKER_04]: So credit to her because Angel sucks at it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we can all agree that Angel just sucks at trying to promote his own business.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, truthfully, the like Angel shimpy, the one being no, he's not personable at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all.
[SPEAKER_04]: My name is not of a personality unless he's angelist anyway.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's get into some feedback here.
[SPEAKER_04]: We got an email from Andrew who's checking back in.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was catching up for a while.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he wants, yes, some questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm through two seasons.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I thought I'd check back in again.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just have one question for Sarah at the end of season one.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was
[SPEAKER_04]: desperately hoping, Zander would die in the coming seasons.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, haha, does she still hope for Zander's demise?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so funny, especially because like I was the one that came around to Zander first.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and you were the one who was like, just wouldn't have had so much news.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, oh, he's just gonna, I said that he's going to die or you, I think you were hoping for him to die.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he's gonna die without a doubt.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, you're not hoping for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I mean, I'm fine with Zander, but I also think that Zander has an incredible talent to pick women that I really like that force me to give him the bump like the
[SPEAKER_03]: He chose Cordelia.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, hey, I like him because of Cordelia.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he chose Ania and I'm like, I really, really like Ania.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now I'm like, okay, like I like Sanders.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like he is has a good taste.
[SPEAKER_03]: A good picker.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not a picker.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, maybe he does.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Ania thinks so.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then also Andrew from the past are Andrew would like to clarify to past us that Angel and Angela are two separate entities.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of funny that we're reading this on this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And also I'm glad you've gotten to the Tara era of the series or the Tara if you will low.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my Andrew stop it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tara isn't necessarily my favorite character in the entire show, but I would argue that she's the best character.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think there's anyone else in the show as purely likable and lovable as Tara.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if I get caught up to this point in the podcast to find out that either of you don't like Tara, I may have to stop listening and disown the entire podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's does not cross her out all.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Jess has been saying, like really awful things about her.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just saying, I don't want you to leave Andrew.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you leave the podcast?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not being stressful of her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is a pure person.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love Tara.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, this is the first episode where I was like a little bit of a red flag because I've always thought like they were red herings, not red flags.
[SPEAKER_04]: This episode I got a tiny teeny tiny red flag.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think it's your anxiety talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I think it's your anxiety talking.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also got an email from Rowan, speaking as someone who grew up just a couple years younger than the age, Riley is supposed to be.
[SPEAKER_04]: He won hundred percent saw all those old live action Disney movies from the sixties and seventies.
[SPEAKER_04]: because that's what the blockbuster in his hometown had when he was a kid.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not only did he watch the nineteen seventy seven freaky friday, but he watched it more than once because he had a big old crush on Jody Foster.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess that tracks.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess it's
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the reason a lot of old school fluffy fans have a hard time with season four is a combination of Adam as sort of a lackluster big bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: People think Riley is boring and the big shift in setting a character dynamics from the first three seasons at high school.
[SPEAKER_04]: Speaking for myself, I like season four a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure, there are a couple of dead episodes, but the show has really come into its own and isn't and isn't afraid to take risks and try something different.
[SPEAKER_04]: I totally agree with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: How can you like
[SPEAKER_03]: a high school show more than a college show.
[SPEAKER_03]: A college show is a breeze life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love college shows.
[SPEAKER_03]: You really love a college show more than anyone I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love a college show.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you put me in a college setting, I thrive.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also got an email from Justin, mostly about the two-parter from last week.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he's very excited, Faith.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's back.
[SPEAKER_04]: I absolutely love how they showed her literally fighting for her life inside her mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: Only when she beats Buffy and crawls out of the grave, did she wake up?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I love how they unveil Faith at the college too, just standing there as Buffy and Molo are talking about her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Speaking of that eventual fight between the two, Willow, I applaud you for trying to get into the fight, but what the hell were you even going to do to her when she takes the bag and like with it?
[SPEAKER_04]: That was very funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, like you guys, I absolutely loved the Tara Willow scenes, especially Tara telling Willow.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's hers.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really felt for Tara to during the meeting up with
[SPEAKER_04]: the fee at the bronze.
[SPEAKER_04]: As someone who stutters, it was a gut punch to see her being mocked for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: As people did the same to me when I was younger.
[SPEAKER_04]: That really hurt my heart when it happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just watched an alley make bill episode where Nell mocked John Cage's setter and I was really pissed about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yum.
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... the buffy meeting up a spite moment she had no right being as sexy as she was there uh... as for the riley uh... slash the post-buffy sex scene my guy riley is a nice guy they say nice guy's finished last and it's true because we make sure the women finish exactly exactly i love that i love that we are sure the men that listen to this podcast no facts or talks be gently
[SPEAKER_03]: the women should finish first exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: So funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just since those fades talking to jiles to get him to believe her, Eliza Dushku is cute as is, but her questioning cute face when she asks what a stevador is was everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I absolutely love the faith Buffy fights in at the end, especially because as soon as she sees who killed the vampire, her inner hatred ever self comes out.
[SPEAKER_04]: She starts beating on her body, even letting her inner thoughts out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Buffy's knowing look at the end is she finally understands faith ironically because she was also in her skin as faith eludes to earlier is everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: For guarding the freaky Friday stuff, I can't blame you just for wanting to peace standing up.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we'll basically tell the cop third around because if I became a woman, the first thing I do is play with my boobs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Justin.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, we all, every, I'm sorry, but every person in the world wants to stand up peace standing up at some point.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just, you can.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I could get like one of those female urinal thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, just stand.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not making a mess of myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying, you can do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want to be free, then do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fuck it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Go.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also just in volunteer to Freaky Friday with me, which is so kind of.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's really nice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Drugs.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much, Justin.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, that's really nice because I'm so glad you trust me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just wanted to Freaky Friday with.
[SPEAKER_03]: He said no.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: My husband did, he didn't say he would, but he said that he wouldn't want me to with anyone else.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think that means that if there ever is an opportunity, I could guilt him into doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we also got an email from Linda.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, ladies, you know I'm here to show my love for my boy Jonathan Levinson.
[SPEAKER_04]: Superstar is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember when Linda wrote in the last time AJ was on and showing her love for Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this tracks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, super stars on my favorite episode of the Center series.
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine I did like the very first time this episode air.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I saw Jonathan was in the opening credits.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been waiting for this episode ever since I found out you guys were covering Felicity and Buffet the same time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm meant to mention this earlier.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so happy you brought this up Linda because one of the vampires was freaking richer for the city.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I I to just recognize him purely by his voice.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was pretty cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like his face shape is the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: He looks
[SPEAKER_03]: like Richard, but yeah, that was that was a really cool crossover.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was kind of funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, especially because I was just where I can on Richard.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we don't like Richard.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're mad at Richard again.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're mad at Richard.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you did a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Going to keep the rest of the short and sweet like my boy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I absolutely love seeing Danny Strong get to shot in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to point out Jonathan never had any ill intentions.
[SPEAKER_04]: He never wanted to hurt anyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: He just wanted a place where he belonged and he just wanted friends.
[SPEAKER_04]: He created this world where he was everyone's everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yet you see the basketball posters in the background.
[SPEAKER_04]: The main focus Jonathan had was helping Buffy and Riley work through what happened with faith.
[SPEAKER_04]: Being able to help others was his focus in this world where he could have had anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like Xander echoes the sentiment perfectly when he says,
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll remember how he made me feel about me, valued and respected.
[SPEAKER_04]: I did love that line too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also, a fun fact for those not watching during the original run, there was a rumor going around at the time that Joss was doing a sock puppet episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: which makes Buffy talking about them being actors in his sock puppet theater way funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: You all just jinxed yourself to talking about how amazing this season is because the next episode is in my opinion the second worst episode of the series with beer bad being number three.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it's the best episode of the series.
[SPEAKER_03]: I refuse.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't even see it yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's the call?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's my favorite episode ever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where the wild things are?
[SPEAKER_03]: I said what I said.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's my favorite episode of all time.
[SPEAKER_04]: So thank you so much for your feedback, Linda.
[SPEAKER_04]: And sock puppets, like, what are we?
[SPEAKER_04]: What?
[SPEAKER_04]: That was a rumor.
[SPEAKER_04]: What sock puppets?
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope that never happens.
[SPEAKER_04]: That'll be bad if it does.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yikes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we got an email from Michael who was listening to one of our bonus episodes on varsity blues Sarah back when we covered that one.
[SPEAKER_04]: He said our accents are ridiculously funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he wants us to bring back the bonus episodes.
[SPEAKER_04]: What I will say is we are so close to finishing Felicity.
[SPEAKER_04]: We will revisit at that point because it's a summer and we're both very busy people at this moment in time.
[SPEAKER_04]: But possibly once Felicity's over, we can do some more bonus stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I got you having fun with the varsity blues.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was a good time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's all our feedback.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone really showed up, showed out for Jonathan.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're like, everybody, like, it's nice because Jonathan just wants to be seen, appreciated, and heard, and it seems as though America loves him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's been heard, he's seen by all our listeners.
[SPEAKER_03]: He truly is a superstar in his own right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's for good for John and her.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, um, was there any tidbits AJ from the use of the writer, right, or the director, I forget.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the writer, Dana Spencer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, was there any tidbits that you got from her?
[SPEAKER_01]: She just loved writing for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was such a joy on this set and they just loved having around, which is why they just started drawing them in more and more episodes because he was, and he was, it should be coming a writer and you know, one day will win, you know, an Emmy for writing and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: What did he, what did he want an Emmy for?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he, he, uh, there was an HBO special, uh, Sarah Palin's, uh, it was called Game Changer.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I threw that joke in.
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I thought it was a survivor joke.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gotcha.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was an HBO.
[SPEAKER_01]: He, he was involved in the TV show Empire, and he's been writing for games.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he's, like, he's done a lot of stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I mostly know him as Doyle from, uh, Gilmar Gross.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now she was saying, like, how, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Josh came up with his idea to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just didn't know where they're going to fit it in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she said, I have to write for it, because she just loved writing for this character and she loved hanging out.
[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't even like really close friends at the time, but they became really good friends as a result of working together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, yeah, it was just such a fun idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was just how many how many things can they throw in the background, how many things been still make the story go here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it was
[SPEAKER_01]: The crew really got into this episode because they love supporting him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said the only downside was that he can't sing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they had to get somebody else to provide the voice.
[SPEAKER_04]: The trumpet thing was very funny to me as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sarah did Adam was playing the trumpet for real.
[SPEAKER_04]: She used to Adam appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, he wasn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: Adam was upset.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was pissed about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the, has expected.
[SPEAKER_03]: It has been like main grape in life that he hates it when people fake play instruments.
[SPEAKER_04]: What are they going to do?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you can't, what are you going to make the guy learn trumpet for one scene of a shuttle?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, it like Adam has a real problem with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could understand shuttle to Everwood, which is covered on Moreland podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can understand being upset if like a main characters, main hobby or activity is an instrument and they don't either find an actor who plays that instrument or have that actor learn to play the instrument that I get.
[SPEAKER_04]: For like a one-off scene, I feel like I don't have high expectations.
[SPEAKER_04]: But well, it's a pretty strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's his cross to bear Sarah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can't care about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: He does.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we've already talked about the title for next week's episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Where the wild things are.
[SPEAKER_04]: So as we're expecting it to be our favorite episode ever, I can't wait to watch it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then angels five by five.
[SPEAKER_04]: Angels five by five.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're going to watch two angel episodes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think so we'll do that for next five by five and six by six.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that would be funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me lower it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, five by five.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been sanctuary.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, basically got it right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's next week.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, AJ, thank you so much for joining us again and bringing all your fun little tidbits.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love having people on who like are so ingrained and they know everything from like you're like, yeah, there was a three week break.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, who would know that?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know that and we appreciate you bringing it in the knowledge.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for joining us today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it is my pleasure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me and I promise to get this that to remove immediately and like this is there's someone in the back here and I have to take care of myself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we'll be back next week with where the wild things are until then everyone here and if the lesson.