WEBVTT 00:00.171 --> 00:10.719 [SPEAKER_01]: This episode of True's Table is brought to you by our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, True's Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation. 00:11.140 --> 00:12.641 [SPEAKER_01]: Get it where all books are sold. 00:16.150 --> 00:17.491 [SPEAKER_02]: Brothers, y'all all right? 00:17.872 --> 00:21.115 [SPEAKER_02]: If this is your first time at truth's table, welcome to the table. 00:21.315 --> 00:23.838 [SPEAKER_02]: And you've been sitting at the table with us all these years. 00:24.118 --> 00:33.788 [SPEAKER_02]: We are so grateful that you have been listening to us through these years and we are inviting you to partner with us and support our work at patreon.com slash truth's table. 00:34.088 --> 00:37.011 [SPEAKER_02]: Now pull up a chair and have a seat at the table with us. 00:37.832 --> 00:39.194 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey y'all welcome to please table. 00:39.214 --> 00:40.815 [SPEAKER_02]: We rise a culture for basically. 00:40.915 --> 00:42.497 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a community and I'm Christina. 00:42.957 --> 00:45.520 [SPEAKER_02]: This table is built by black women and for black women. 00:45.540 --> 00:46.601 [SPEAKER_02]: So welcome to the table. 00:46.641 --> 00:47.702 [SPEAKER_02]: See how y'all doing. 00:48.322 --> 00:49.884 [SPEAKER_02]: I am doing pretty good. 00:49.944 --> 00:53.147 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess, you know, it's um, you know. 00:54.020 --> 00:54.900 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a wild time. 00:55.341 --> 00:56.401 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a wild time. 00:56.521 --> 01:03.524 [SPEAKER_01]: So I went to the doctors this morning in the nurse practitioners and some of the different providers were like, how are you doing today? 01:03.704 --> 01:09.586 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just kept saying, you know, decent, decent, which is not how I answer that question typically. 01:09.626 --> 01:14.528 [SPEAKER_01]: But I recognize that it's a city, I just see the city and reality, but how are you doing friends today? 01:14.588 --> 01:15.048 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? 01:15.908 --> 01:17.810 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I know that question of how are you? 01:17.970 --> 01:19.031 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like a trick question. 01:19.131 --> 01:22.914 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the question is a trick question. 01:25.437 --> 01:26.758 [SPEAKER_02]: I am maintaining, okay? 01:28.019 --> 01:30.821 [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, the Lord is maintaining me upholding me. 01:30.881 --> 01:31.422 [SPEAKER_02]: How about that? 01:32.303 --> 01:34.845 [SPEAKER_02]: And for that, I am grateful. 01:35.485 --> 01:38.987 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so that I'm grateful to be here at this table with you, my sister. 01:39.027 --> 01:39.507 [SPEAKER_02]: We are still. 01:39.567 --> 01:40.187 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. 01:40.307 --> 01:44.649 [SPEAKER_02]: Fortune had doing what needs to be done still resisting in the name of Jesus. 01:46.229 --> 01:47.110 [SPEAKER_02]: All of the things. 01:47.450 --> 01:47.650 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 01:47.890 --> 01:48.430 [SPEAKER_02]: All the things. 01:49.631 --> 01:50.471 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 01:50.651 --> 01:51.912 [SPEAKER_02]: And we go for a chat. 01:52.132 --> 01:53.592 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we do here at True Stable. 01:53.612 --> 01:57.894 [SPEAKER_02]: So I am and so honored and grateful. 01:58.954 --> 02:17.405 [SPEAKER_02]: for our guest who is on our still resistance series which we are we are turning the corner we are rounding the corner on this on this series you know and so I hope we are who knows what might happen it is a day by day situation it's like 02:21.508 --> 02:30.074 [SPEAKER_02]: We are so honored to have the Reverend Nontomi Naomi Tutu with us at the table for this still resisting episode. 02:30.114 --> 02:32.336 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the table Reverend Naomi. 02:32.396 --> 02:32.977 [SPEAKER_02]: How are you? 02:34.658 --> 02:36.540 [SPEAKER_03]: I am doing well. 02:36.560 --> 02:37.841 [SPEAKER_03]: I am doing well. 02:38.902 --> 02:43.646 [SPEAKER_03]: I hear you about the answer to that question. 02:43.746 --> 02:49.671 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember I just recently, I had to go and get a new social security card. 02:50.391 --> 02:54.935 [SPEAKER_03]: I have never changed my name from the time many, many years ago. 02:55.996 --> 03:00.980 [SPEAKER_03]: And I said to the young woman who was helping me, I said, how are you doing? 03:01.829 --> 03:05.712 [SPEAKER_03]: And she looked at me and I said, no, seriously, how are you doing? 03:06.712 --> 03:19.481 [SPEAKER_03]: We know, we on this side of the counter, know the stress that you behind the counter, dealing with, that's what it's, you know, with the job cuts and all of that. 03:19.941 --> 03:27.186 [SPEAKER_03]: And she said, just having you acknowledge that, has made a difference in my day. 03:30.008 --> 03:31.089 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that, you know, 03:31.673 --> 03:55.409 [SPEAKER_03]: when we ask people how are you that to give them the opportunity to say, I am not doing well rather than how are you and keep moving, that at this point it is really important for us to open the space to one another to really say how we are doing. 03:57.002 --> 03:59.683 [SPEAKER_02]: Come on, and be ready to receive the response, right? 04:00.743 --> 04:03.344 [SPEAKER_02]: No matter what that is, thank you for that Reverend Naomi. 04:03.364 --> 04:08.746 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, just in case our listeners do not know or not familiar with who you are. 04:08.806 --> 04:13.067 [SPEAKER_02]: What can I tell them a little something about you before we get into our conversation? 04:13.127 --> 04:14.808 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm grateful for that mini homo, though. 04:15.028 --> 04:20.850 [SPEAKER_02]: I really am, because I was in the truth, that we have to be able to hear people see them where they are. 04:20.930 --> 04:25.351 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the Reverend Nontumbi Naomi Tutu, new from 04:25.911 --> 04:31.132 [SPEAKER_02]: early age that the one thing she would never be is a priest. 04:31.772 --> 04:37.073 [SPEAKER_02]: She has always said, I have my father's nose, I do not want his job. 04:37.513 --> 04:46.055 [SPEAKER_02]: However, after years spent as a development consultant, educator and race and gender activist, she accepted her call to ordained ministry. 04:46.535 --> 04:52.696 [SPEAKER_02]: She is an episcopal priest who most recently was associate-rector at all Saints Beverly Hills. 04:53.256 --> 05:00.979 [SPEAKER_02]: The challenges of growing up black and female in apartheid South Africa have been the foundation of Naomi's life as an activist for human rights. 05:01.459 --> 05:12.284 [SPEAKER_02]: Those experiences taught her that our whole human family loses when we accept situations of oppression and how the teaching and preaching hate and division injure us all. 05:12.824 --> 05:13.064 [SPEAKER_02]: Rev. 05:13.084 --> 05:19.427 [SPEAKER_02]: Tutu is the third child of Archbishop Desmond and Namalizo, Leah Tutu. 05:20.067 --> 05:24.092 [SPEAKER_02]: She was born in South Africa and had the opportunity to live in many communities in countries. 05:24.452 --> 05:31.220 [SPEAKER_02]: She was educated in Swaziland, the US and England and has divided her adult life between South Africa and the US. 05:31.641 --> 05:34.985 [SPEAKER_02]: Growing up, the daughter of has offered Naomi to two. 05:35.585 --> 05:42.171 [SPEAKER_02]: Many opportunities and challenges in her life perhaps one of the greatest challenges she has struggled with is the call to ministry. 05:42.451 --> 05:47.836 [SPEAKER_02]: This call refused to be silence even as she carried her passion for justice into other fields. 05:48.217 --> 05:52.520 [SPEAKER_02]: The call to preach and serve as an ordained, clergy person continued to tug at her. 05:52.941 --> 05:57.005 [SPEAKER_02]: Finally in her fifties, she responded to the call and went to seminary. 05:57.665 --> 06:10.755 [SPEAKER_02]: Her professional experience is ranging from being a development consultant in West Africa to being program coordinator for programs on race, gender, and gender based violence in education at the African Gender Institute at the University of Cape Town. 06:11.136 --> 06:18.481 [SPEAKER_02]: In addition, Reverend Tutu is taught at the University of Hartford University of Connecticut and Brevard College in North Carolina. 06:19.402 --> 06:29.084 [SPEAKER_02]: As well as speaking in preaching, Reverend Tutu has established Naziziwei consulting, which means mother of many lands in her mother tongue, Hosa. 06:29.604 --> 06:41.787 [SPEAKER_02]: It is a name she was given by her maternal grandmother, the guiding principle of Naziziwei consulting is to bring different groups together to learn from and celebrate their differences and acknowledge their shared humanity. 06:42.107 --> 06:48.848 [SPEAKER_02]: Reverend Tutu is a recipient of four honorary degrees from universities and colleges in the US and in Nigeria. 06:49.388 --> 06:52.510 [SPEAKER_02]: She is the single mother of two daughters and a son. 06:52.650 --> 06:55.952 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the table, Reverend Naomi Tutu. 06:56.712 --> 06:57.433 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 06:57.793 --> 06:59.094 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you to have you. 07:00.534 --> 07:06.438 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you are the daughter of Archbishop Desmond Tutu. 07:06.958 --> 07:13.402 [SPEAKER_02]: You have a very rich history and called to ministry, actually. 07:15.764 --> 07:17.926 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you accepted the call in your fifties. 07:17.986 --> 07:19.628 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that is amazing. 07:19.648 --> 07:28.457 [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to hear more about your story about how what did that look like to be resisting that call. 07:28.597 --> 07:29.578 [SPEAKER_02]: How does one 07:30.058 --> 07:44.243 [SPEAKER_02]: both through their life, filling this call toward justice, but then also the call to ministry, but maybe ignoring or pushing that back, maybe there's somebody at our table who's ignoring that call to, can you talk to us about your own call? 07:44.904 --> 07:47.124 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just a ministering what that looked like for you. 07:47.765 --> 07:58.949 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I always tell people that my origin story and part of the reasons for this struggle is that when I was born, my father was actually in seminary. 08:00.056 --> 08:06.301 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, and he could not come to my grandparents' house where I was born. 08:06.882 --> 08:19.713 [SPEAKER_03]: And instead of friend of his came, and when she went back to report about the baby, she said to him, well, this one, all we need to do is put on glasses and a cast like, and it's you. 08:20.953 --> 08:25.058 [SPEAKER_03]: So that was the story I heard from the time I was at the airport. 08:25.599 --> 08:32.228 [SPEAKER_03]: Every time anybody talked about me, it was that I had, if I had glasses and a cast of, I would be my father. 08:32.748 --> 08:38.616 [SPEAKER_03]: So you can imagine that first of all, no girl wants to be told how much they look like their father. 08:39.567 --> 08:47.472 [SPEAKER_03]: But then, that they added the casket and the glasses, I was like, I am never going to be called bad in the casket. 08:47.953 --> 08:50.815 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the only way that I can get out of this. 08:51.575 --> 08:56.218 [SPEAKER_03]: And I couldn't do anything about the glasses because I was short-sighted. 08:56.358 --> 08:59.040 [SPEAKER_03]: So that one I could not find. 08:59.440 --> 09:00.661 [SPEAKER_01]: No, you gotta see. 09:00.681 --> 09:01.862 [SPEAKER_01]: You gotta see. 09:02.142 --> 09:03.343 [SPEAKER_03]: I could fight the casket. 09:04.502 --> 09:14.546 [SPEAKER_03]: And so the first time I had a real sense of my call was just after I had graduated from my master's. 09:14.646 --> 09:16.106 [SPEAKER_03]: I was twenty four years old. 09:17.207 --> 09:21.788 [SPEAKER_03]: I had been invited to speak at a church in Connecticut where I was living. 09:22.689 --> 09:26.690 [SPEAKER_03]: And as I stood in the pulpit, it just felt right. 09:27.850 --> 09:32.412 [SPEAKER_03]: And I said to a friend of mine who was, you know, day in the Piscopal clergy person, 09:32.960 --> 09:37.202 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, you know, I think maybe I need to be thinking about ordination. 09:38.542 --> 09:46.845 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the next morning, I woke up, I was like, I guess I was broke or something because that is not happening. 09:48.466 --> 09:50.387 [SPEAKER_03]: That is definitely not happening. 09:50.427 --> 09:54.128 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I kept having those kinds of experiences over and over. 09:54.617 --> 09:59.282 [SPEAKER_03]: And I kept having excuses, you know, the first was, you know, I'm pregnant. 09:59.402 --> 10:02.384 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't, I can't be going to seminary then. 10:02.825 --> 10:03.946 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a single mother. 10:04.146 --> 10:06.769 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't, how can I go to say, I know. 10:07.558 --> 10:10.801 [SPEAKER_03]: And then my sister went to seminary. 10:10.841 --> 10:12.442 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, and we look a lot alike. 10:12.942 --> 10:15.424 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, oh, the Holy Spirit had got lost. 10:15.444 --> 10:18.286 [SPEAKER_03]: You're knocking at my door instead of a door. 10:18.347 --> 10:20.048 [SPEAKER_03]: Now she found the right person. 10:20.128 --> 10:21.709 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm off the hook. 10:21.769 --> 10:25.472 [SPEAKER_03]: So there were always reasons that I could come up with. 10:25.712 --> 10:29.555 [SPEAKER_03]: But oh, this was not a real experience. 10:30.096 --> 10:35.600 [SPEAKER_03]: And then finally one of my spiritual directors, because I've always been, 10:36.163 --> 10:40.646 [SPEAKER_03]: a person who felt the importance of a relationship with God. 10:41.307 --> 10:45.990 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I have had spiritual directors since I was in my mid-twenties. 10:46.971 --> 10:51.074 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of my spiritual directors finally said to me, what are you running from? 10:51.455 --> 10:54.817 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't even know if there really is something you are running from. 10:55.378 --> 11:00.822 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe there is no clue to ministry, but you are running so hard, you will never know. 11:00.842 --> 11:05.185 [SPEAKER_03]: So why don't you stop and turn and face 11:05.765 --> 11:08.367 [SPEAKER_03]: and see what this is. 11:09.728 --> 11:28.083 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I did and with lots of people praying over me and supporting me and telling me that, if I couldn't pay my bills, they will be there to help me and the children. 11:29.704 --> 11:31.065 [SPEAKER_03]: I finally gave up. 11:35.027 --> 11:41.511 [SPEAKER_03]: And finally enough, I still didn't completely give up, because, you know, I was still testing God. 11:42.812 --> 11:49.016 [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I don't want to go to seminary, because if I go to seminary, then it will be that I'm going into ordained ministry. 11:49.577 --> 11:51.318 [SPEAKER_03]: But I'll go to a divinity school. 11:51.958 --> 11:56.721 [SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe there is a ministry, but it's not necessarily as a priest. 11:57.602 --> 12:03.586 [SPEAKER_03]: And then just to update a little bit more, I said, God, I'm only applying to one divinity school. 12:04.311 --> 12:11.753 [SPEAKER_03]: And if I don't get in, and I don't get any money, or if I get in, and I don't get any money, then that means this is not real. 12:12.873 --> 12:18.754 [SPEAKER_03]: And I applied to the Divinity School down the road from where we live, because we lived in Nashville at that time. 12:19.515 --> 12:24.436 [SPEAKER_03]: I applied to Vanderbilt, and I got funding, and so I was like, okay. 12:25.796 --> 12:28.457 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 12:28.497 --> 12:33.238 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's stop this process and start in that process then. 12:36.932 --> 12:38.573 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that's a great story. 12:38.613 --> 12:44.776 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, often think about the scripture that, you know, God's goodness in mercy follows us all the days of our lives. 12:44.836 --> 12:51.160 [SPEAKER_01]: And this image of us sometimes running from the goodness in mercy and needing to be still so we can catch up with us. 12:52.161 --> 12:59.545 [SPEAKER_01]: And as we were selling your story, that is the image I was getting in my mind and at spiritual director saying, stop, turn around and just face it. 13:00.265 --> 13:02.567 [SPEAKER_01]: and see if that is actually what is happening, right? 13:02.587 --> 13:06.030 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's just such wisdom and shout out to Vandy, Dave, my husband's a grad. 13:06.070 --> 13:14.278 [SPEAKER_01]: So we know that school, and you're right, and it does produce sometimes people who go into clergy, but also it's a many, many different things as well. 13:14.398 --> 13:21.024 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I want to talk a little bit about if we can just roll back time, right? 13:22.145 --> 13:23.927 [SPEAKER_01]: About your childhood. 13:25.064 --> 13:41.309 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm thinking about children in our context right now who are growing up in the political moment that we are in in the US, but also in other parts of the world who feel the tension of political unrest, who may even feel a sense of deep unwelcome as children of African descent in this country. 13:41.349 --> 13:49.532 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just curious about a childhood, your childhood, under apartheid, and how that has shaped your sense of justice, 13:50.982 --> 13:52.763 [SPEAKER_01]: You're calling around those things. 13:53.064 --> 13:56.807 [SPEAKER_01]: How does that work out for you and who you are as a woman today? 13:59.210 --> 14:10.341 [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, obviously, the experience of being viewed as less than in the country of your ancestry. 14:10.581 --> 14:12.563 [SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, all of my ancestors 14:13.055 --> 14:16.197 [SPEAKER_03]: come from South Africa, Southern Africa at least. 14:16.817 --> 14:30.684 [SPEAKER_03]: And so to be told that because of the color of my skin, I was less than because of the color of my skin, I was not fully human because of the color of my skin. 14:30.944 --> 14:35.907 [SPEAKER_03]: I had no rights in the country of my birth. 14:36.247 --> 14:42.650 [SPEAKER_03]: That obviously has an impact on the view of self. 14:43.163 --> 14:43.483 [SPEAKER_03]: Right? 14:44.144 --> 14:54.034 [SPEAKER_03]: But at that same time, I was surrounded by a community that kept saying to me, don't listen to the lie. 14:55.535 --> 14:57.717 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't take the lie in. 14:58.598 --> 15:07.507 [SPEAKER_03]: And from, you know, even from my grandmother's who were both uneducated, both domestic workers, 15:08.653 --> 15:14.962 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember I always tell people about my favorite theology was actually my father's mother. 15:16.041 --> 15:20.002 [SPEAKER_03]: who is the person who introduced me to church. 15:20.022 --> 15:26.504 [SPEAKER_03]: For many of us, I'm sure our grandmothers, our mothers, were actually the people who took us to church, right? 15:27.325 --> 15:44.630 [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember being the church that I was baptizing, sitting in that church with my grandmother and looking around at this church in a black community where everybody in the church was black, but all the art was white. 15:45.981 --> 15:46.821 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 15:47.222 --> 15:51.624 [SPEAKER_03]: So we're looking at a white God, white angels. 15:52.404 --> 15:54.445 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody in heaven is white. 15:55.606 --> 16:04.790 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I sent to my grandmother, I was like, how can we expect a God who looks like that to love us? 16:05.651 --> 16:10.053 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, God is looking like the people who oppress us. 16:10.453 --> 16:12.354 [SPEAKER_03]: So how can we expect that God 16:13.019 --> 16:19.286 [SPEAKER_03]: to have the same care for us that God would have for white people. 16:20.147 --> 16:22.650 [SPEAKER_03]: And my brother did not miss a beat. 16:23.791 --> 16:26.795 [SPEAKER_03]: He said to me, that's not a photo of God. 16:28.105 --> 16:32.587 [SPEAKER_03]: That is not somebody went up to heaven and took a picture of God. 16:32.607 --> 16:33.387 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 16:33.987 --> 16:37.028 [SPEAKER_03]: I know that I am made in God's image. 16:37.128 --> 16:39.809 [SPEAKER_03]: That is what God's word tells me. 16:40.470 --> 16:47.172 [SPEAKER_03]: So what I know about that art is that it is somebody else's perspective on God. 16:47.752 --> 16:53.114 [SPEAKER_03]: And people who built and painted this church were white missionaries. 16:53.714 --> 16:57.476 [SPEAKER_03]: And so the fact that they think God looks like them 16:58.345 --> 17:00.087 [SPEAKER_03]: That's their problem, not mine. 17:00.947 --> 17:05.031 [SPEAKER_03]: My eye, I have a knowledge of a God who loves me. 17:05.411 --> 17:27.730 [SPEAKER_03]: And so having a community that was constantly saying to me, if those paintings of God are not the truth of who God is, then everything about the system of apartheid that tells you that you are less than when God has said you are made in God's own image is a lie. 17:28.372 --> 17:32.315 [SPEAKER_03]: And we need you to know that this is a lie. 17:33.195 --> 17:41.801 [SPEAKER_03]: And the other thing that my other grandmother used to like to tell me is, this is not the end of the story. 17:42.761 --> 17:46.223 [SPEAKER_03]: And I heard that from so many people in different ways. 17:48.305 --> 17:51.627 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was one of those lazy children growing up. 17:52.427 --> 17:56.290 [SPEAKER_03]: And in our community, when you got your report card, 17:57.032 --> 17:58.492 [SPEAKER_03]: It didn't end at home. 17:59.373 --> 18:02.233 [SPEAKER_03]: It went to every house in the street. 18:02.873 --> 18:07.835 [SPEAKER_03]: And all the adults in the community had something to say about your report card. 18:08.595 --> 18:13.816 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you had a good report card, you would get candy, maybe money. 18:14.536 --> 18:18.877 [SPEAKER_03]: If you had a not so good report card, you would get words of encouragement. 18:19.378 --> 18:24.959 [SPEAKER_03]: If you had a bad report card, you would have words of lecturing you. 18:26.062 --> 18:34.488 [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember as a teenager at one point saying, you know, lazy but smart, smart mouth. 18:35.247 --> 18:49.170 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, well, what's the point of working hard in school when we know that a five-day has a job reservation act so that they are jobs that I cannot have simply because I am black? 18:49.530 --> 18:57.231 [SPEAKER_03]: Why would I try and be educated knowing that there are barriers in place simply because I'm a black woman? 18:58.191 --> 19:02.772 [SPEAKER_03]: And my grandmother's saying to me, this is not the end of the story. 19:03.409 --> 19:06.172 [SPEAKER_03]: This is not what you are preparing yourself for. 19:06.632 --> 19:10.856 [SPEAKER_03]: You are not preparing yourself to live forever in an abadate system. 19:11.417 --> 19:27.392 [SPEAKER_03]: And I heard that from community members from the church, the church I belong to, that what you are working for is what God has promised all of God's children, freedom and justice, 19:28.230 --> 19:32.233 [SPEAKER_03]: and a place of belonging in God's beloved community. 19:32.393 --> 19:35.356 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that is what you need to be working towards. 19:35.796 --> 19:46.244 [SPEAKER_03]: So even in the midst of a part-dates oppression, I had this primary community that kept saying to me, don't listen to the lie. 19:47.165 --> 19:54.270 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's important that we, at this time, are saying that to our young people. 19:54.690 --> 19:55.111 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. 19:55.171 --> 19:56.672 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't listen to the lie. 19:57.473 --> 19:58.073 [SPEAKER_02]: listen to the live. 19:58.133 --> 20:04.857 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't take in the lie about who you are, about these systems, about empire. 20:05.637 --> 20:07.938 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't listen to those lies. 20:09.339 --> 20:10.720 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't listen to the lies. 20:10.760 --> 20:16.423 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I am stirred up by the prophetic imagination. 20:17.695 --> 20:20.497 [SPEAKER_02]: and prognostication of your grandmother. 20:20.518 --> 20:40.154 [SPEAKER_02]: And just the work of disentangling, the true gospel, the true Eastern Christian faith from the white supremacist images, you know, controlling images that the white missionaries brought 20:40.895 --> 20:50.805 [SPEAKER_02]: For you know, so I'm thank you for sharing that because that is a powerful Corrective and it's a question that a lot of Black folks in the U.S. 20:51.405 --> 20:52.326 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me not just the U.S. 20:52.386 --> 21:00.354 [SPEAKER_02]: but grapple with you know how how do we make sense you know of our faith as black as black people you know 21:01.655 --> 21:21.561 [SPEAKER_02]: Reverend Nama, you know, you've carried the privilege, you know, and the pressure of being the daughter of Archbishop, Desmond Tutu, and I'm curious about how your father's prophetic legacy has shaped and sometimes complicated, your own vocation and voice. 21:21.601 --> 21:22.342 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you speak to that? 21:24.342 --> 21:29.684 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it goes back to that, I will first question about why did it take me until I was fifteen. 21:30.165 --> 21:32.727 [SPEAKER_03]: to go to the very right. 21:33.228 --> 21:44.438 [SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, one of the other things that kind of convicted me was my son's godmother when we were talking about it said to me one day. 21:45.879 --> 21:52.866 [SPEAKER_03]: So what you're saying is you are going to ignore your call because your father accepted his. 21:54.427 --> 21:56.449 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was just like, you meant to be my friend. 21:57.008 --> 21:57.848 [SPEAKER_03]: That was, that was cold. 21:58.188 --> 21:59.029 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 21:59.429 --> 22:00.489 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:00.909 --> 22:01.489 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:01.809 --> 22:02.329 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:02.349 --> 22:02.790 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:02.890 --> 22:03.430 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:03.450 --> 22:03.930 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:04.010 --> 22:04.450 [UNKNOWN]: That was cold. 22:04.530 --> 22:05.050 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:05.070 --> 22:05.610 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:05.630 --> 22:05.930 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:05.970 --> 22:06.691 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:06.731 --> 22:07.151 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:07.171 --> 22:07.731 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:07.791 --> 22:08.671 [UNKNOWN]: That was cold. 22:08.831 --> 22:11.212 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:11.232 --> 22:12.492 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:12.512 --> 22:13.332 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:13.773 --> 22:14.453 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:14.573 --> 22:16.013 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:16.413 --> 22:17.153 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:17.173 --> 22:18.554 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:18.574 --> 22:19.114 [SPEAKER_03]: That was cold. 22:28.368 --> 22:35.254 [SPEAKER_03]: where was I independent of him and and there was not 22:35.821 --> 22:41.564 [SPEAKER_03]: in my parents, anything about, you know, you are representing us in the world. 22:41.664 --> 22:44.286 [SPEAKER_03]: That was never anything that they spoke about. 22:44.726 --> 22:53.291 [SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, my mother was very clear, you know, when we were growing up and people would say, oh my gosh, and she's a priest child. 22:53.811 --> 22:56.153 [SPEAKER_03]: And my mom would say, yeah, that's what you said. 22:56.213 --> 22:58.414 [SPEAKER_03]: You said she is a priest child. 22:58.854 --> 22:59.855 [SPEAKER_03]: She is not a priest. 23:00.495 --> 23:02.697 [SPEAKER_03]: She did not choose to go to seminary. 23:03.097 --> 23:05.058 [SPEAKER_03]: Only one person in this house 23:05.872 --> 23:11.394 [SPEAKER_03]: has gone to seminary so far and he is doing his work as a priest. 23:11.974 --> 23:17.455 [SPEAKER_03]: There is no job description that says priest child, so leave my child alone. 23:18.636 --> 23:26.098 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that was really empowering for me to always have that to hold on to. 23:26.738 --> 23:29.639 [SPEAKER_03]: And that my parents had always said to us that 23:30.183 --> 23:50.393 [SPEAKER_03]: We all expect you to follow in our footsteps, but we do expect you to be people who see a world and want to make it better and want to do something in your power to bring our world closer to justice and freedom. 23:50.873 --> 23:58.597 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you have benefited from people who died for you to experience 23:59.794 --> 24:14.818 [SPEAKER_03]: Even the experience of going to live in England, that there were people who sacrificed that my father could go and study in England and we could spend time in a less toxic environment than a part-state South Africa. 24:15.758 --> 24:25.300 [SPEAKER_03]: So, but it was, you know, people would still have these things like, you know, oh, so your father is Archbishop Chu Chu. 24:26.021 --> 24:26.201 [SPEAKER_03]: And I, 24:27.882 --> 24:36.686 [SPEAKER_03]: would feel like I don't want to embarrass my parents with cussing people out or anything like that. 24:36.947 --> 24:47.192 [SPEAKER_03]: Because power is a good one for cussing people out in a hot second. 24:48.512 --> 24:57.517 [SPEAKER_03]: And so being aware of, I have my own gifts, my own challenges, 24:58.000 --> 25:23.705 [SPEAKER_03]: that I have come into the world with, and I have my own opportunities and my own challenges that are beyond being the daughter of, and I remember at one point being in conversation with Adrian Belafonte, Dissimia, and Zuzi, and Zany Mandela, and talking about study, a club. 25:24.652 --> 25:26.394 [SPEAKER_03]: the daughters of club. 25:26.874 --> 25:45.250 [SPEAKER_03]: So we could congratulate with one another and act out with one another when it felt like that better off thing was being heavy on our shoulders and having that kind of friends to help me. 25:45.550 --> 25:48.273 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm not 25:48.716 --> 25:59.359 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not Nelson Mandela, and yes, I am Nelson Mandela's daughter, but there is so much more to me than what that describes. 26:00.760 --> 26:17.205 [SPEAKER_03]: And so having those relationships, having my parents encouraged me, and having just the opportunities I had to be me, has been great. 26:18.313 --> 26:21.474 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and you know, I've ever been to you or such an amazing storyteller. 26:21.494 --> 26:27.736 [SPEAKER_01]: I have, I have laughed and learned which is something I really appreciate listening to people who communicate that way. 26:28.196 --> 26:33.178 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that people at home are also likewise having a similar experience getting to know you. 26:34.258 --> 26:40.403 [SPEAKER_01]: and also dismantling whatever they, whatever they have projected about who they think you should be and what you should sound like, right? 26:40.904 --> 26:42.725 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm so grateful to have you here today. 26:42.765 --> 26:48.250 [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna pause just for a moment, take a short break, and we will be right back with more wisdom. 26:48.370 --> 26:54.535 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're gonna get into the United States and what's happening in our world right now, but more wisdom from Reverend Tutu today. 26:58.058 --> 27:01.841 [SPEAKER_01]: Our NAACP Image Award nominated book, True Stable. 27:02.302 --> 27:07.523 [SPEAKER_01]: Black women's musings on life, love, and liberation is making waves and shifting culture. 27:08.283 --> 27:15.604 [SPEAKER_01]: I close this book feeling like I had just partaken in a multi-course meal, filled with grace and the courage to carry on. 27:16.445 --> 27:19.405 [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe you'll finish this book feeling the same way. 27:20.065 --> 27:22.406 [SPEAKER_01]: Morgan Harper Nichols, artist and poet. 27:22.986 --> 27:26.906 [SPEAKER_01]: By Truth's Table, Black women's musings on life, love, and liberation. 27:27.487 --> 27:29.987 [SPEAKER_01]: At our website, or wherever books are sold. 27:31.698 --> 27:33.118 [SPEAKER_00]: As you can see, we're not good for asking. 27:33.138 --> 27:36.139 [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking for money, but we are asking for money today. 27:36.260 --> 27:37.020 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's why. 27:37.380 --> 27:41.341 [SPEAKER_00]: In order for us to bring the concept that we've been bringing to you for years at this point. 27:41.401 --> 27:41.801 [SPEAKER_00]: Eight years. 27:41.921 --> 27:49.044 [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a whole background of folks who are talented and gifted and loving people who we have to pay for which we make these things happen. 27:49.444 --> 27:52.545 [SPEAKER_00]: As well as ourselves, and we want to keep bringing great content to you. 27:53.185 --> 27:56.246 [SPEAKER_00]: We are in a desert of truth right now. 27:56.266 --> 27:59.307 [SPEAKER_00]: There seems to be lots of lives happening last night. 27:59.327 --> 28:08.269 [SPEAKER_00]: And so with you support the idea of promoting security in any way, shape, or form, we invite you to partner with Sri Stable and become one of our Patreon supporters. 28:08.410 --> 28:13.011 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, actually when you become a supporter, you actually get the episodes a couple days before. 28:13.571 --> 28:14.911 [SPEAKER_02]: the rest of the world. 28:14.952 --> 28:18.893 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's your turn to speak to, you know, of course, communicate with us. 28:18.933 --> 28:20.533 [SPEAKER_02]: Let us know your thoughts about that episode. 28:20.874 --> 28:26.315 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, we will be having some more private discussions about things going on in pop culture. 28:26.335 --> 28:31.157 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I don't know, whatever. 28:31.257 --> 28:33.078 [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing's been in my imagination. 28:33.478 --> 28:34.598 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be talking about the things. 28:34.618 --> 28:39.060 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd like to join our community today and thank you for your for sitting at the table with us all these years. 28:39.980 --> 28:52.449 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're back at true stable and we're joined today by Reverend Tutu and we are just listening, learning, laughing and taking it all in and I'm just so grateful again for your accepting this invitation. 28:52.610 --> 28:58.274 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to talk about what is happening right now in the United States context, right? 28:58.354 --> 29:04.038 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and what it means to try to respond to this moment in a both pastoral and prophetic way. 29:04.298 --> 29:05.859 [SPEAKER_01]: And those are not contradictions. 29:06.360 --> 29:07.981 [SPEAKER_01]: They necessarily hold hands, but 29:08.721 --> 29:21.491 [SPEAKER_01]: As you think about caring for people who are full of this may and frustration at this moment, what would you say to show them the hope that we have? 29:21.931 --> 29:28.816 [SPEAKER_01]: But also what would you say to push people forward to necessary engagement because of our calling as people who do justice? 29:29.557 --> 29:30.417 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 29:31.598 --> 29:36.802 [SPEAKER_03]: So the first I would always say to people is that hope 29:37.661 --> 29:41.622 [SPEAKER_03]: is in fact one of our strongest weapons. 29:41.902 --> 29:49.144 [SPEAKER_03]: It is hope that sustains us and it is also hope that propels us into action, right? 29:50.324 --> 29:58.186 [SPEAKER_03]: And what I've been saying to young people is, this is not a new game for us. 29:59.006 --> 30:03.307 [SPEAKER_03]: This is not something we have never experienced before. 30:04.407 --> 30:06.868 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a reality 30:07.803 --> 30:37.193 [SPEAKER_03]: in this world and in this country it is a reality that maybe today is larger than it has been for many years but it is the experience that the ancestors in this country know of and that the reality is when you look at the cycles of violence 30:37.970 --> 30:59.631 [SPEAKER_03]: of oppression, of injustice, metered out on black people, especially, but also indigenous and other brown people, that it has been in response to our upliftments, and usually our self upliftment, right? 31:00.354 --> 31:23.661 [SPEAKER_03]: But it has been, so when you look at the Tulsa massacre, when you look at the Atlanta massacre, when you look at those, when you look at all of those acts of violence that happened on black communities, it was when black communities had shown themselves resilient and able to build their own prosperity. 31:24.738 --> 31:30.462 [SPEAKER_03]: and what nationalism could not bear to see black progress. 31:31.643 --> 31:38.368 [SPEAKER_03]: And therefore, attacked black communities that were showing black progress. 31:38.888 --> 31:52.578 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, if we remember that, if we start off by remembering that, then the first thing that we recognize is that means that this is a response again to our progress. 31:53.446 --> 32:01.592 [SPEAKER_03]: This as a response of a people who have shown themselves willing to do anything. 32:03.413 --> 32:13.341 [SPEAKER_03]: Enslavement, lynching, Jim Crow, massacres to keep black people disempowered. 32:14.281 --> 32:23.148 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you like, there is a way that it is a word about our power. 32:24.698 --> 32:28.861 [SPEAKER_03]: that there has to be, there has to be this response. 32:29.541 --> 32:35.525 [SPEAKER_03]: Each time we have shown what we are capable of, right? 32:36.366 --> 32:53.518 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of my favorite sayings right now, particularly to young people, is a saying that comes from a Greek poet and I cannot remember his name right now, but he says they tried to bury us. 32:54.918 --> 32:57.000 [SPEAKER_03]: they did not know that we are seen. 32:57.400 --> 32:57.880 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. 32:58.501 --> 32:58.801 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 32:59.401 --> 33:23.640 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is the story of black people around the world over and over empire, right supremacy, Christian nationalism have tried to bury us and over and over we have started a harvest that just makes them 33:25.171 --> 33:26.692 [SPEAKER_03]: lose their minds again. 33:28.373 --> 33:42.302 [SPEAKER_03]: So for me, I say to people that remember that when I was growing up, we were told that above dates would be there forever. 33:43.783 --> 33:50.567 [SPEAKER_03]: And the above date government responded to all peaceful protests with violence 33:51.169 --> 34:02.753 [SPEAKER_03]: with the killing of children, with imprisoning our leaders, with banning organizations, with forcing people to flee into exile. 34:05.033 --> 34:17.617 [SPEAKER_03]: But the passage of time and people's determination said, you can keep on thinking you are buried in us. 34:18.677 --> 34:20.078 [SPEAKER_03]: Where you kill one, 34:21.453 --> 34:26.677 [SPEAKER_03]: thousands grow out of that martin blood. 34:27.117 --> 34:30.940 [SPEAKER_03]: And we will continue being produced. 34:31.360 --> 34:35.263 [SPEAKER_03]: We will continue to fight this injustice. 34:35.543 --> 34:47.511 [SPEAKER_03]: We will continue to speak out because as long as there is one person oppressed, none of us are free. 34:48.652 --> 34:49.233 [SPEAKER_03]: Even you 34:50.120 --> 34:57.282 [SPEAKER_03]: Right supremacists will never be free as long as we are oppressed. 34:58.042 --> 35:12.125 [SPEAKER_03]: You will always be looking for scapegoats for your suffering, but the truth is your suffering is because you are imposing suffering on others. 35:16.019 --> 35:22.686 [SPEAKER_02]: That is so profound and just true, you know, revenue. 35:22.726 --> 35:23.566 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for that. 35:23.626 --> 35:30.293 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, part of the reason why we wanted you to come to the table is because of your own social location. 35:30.873 --> 35:38.516 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, as one who is rooted in both the African, but specifically South African, but African too, right? 35:38.556 --> 35:48.120 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you have experienced there in West Africa and in Nigeria specifically, but you're also rooted in American struggles for justice. 35:48.380 --> 35:54.982 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm wondering what, from your vantage point, where are the common patterns that you're seeing and that you're observing? 35:55.702 --> 35:57.043 [SPEAKER_02]: And where do you sense 35:57.563 --> 36:01.028 [SPEAKER_02]: with your own Holy Ghost imagination. 36:01.509 --> 36:08.538 [SPEAKER_02]: Where do you sense the Holy Spirit inviting the church to repentance and reformation today? 36:08.899 --> 36:12.964 [SPEAKER_02]: Because we know that the church, all of these institutions that we know of will crumble. 36:13.485 --> 36:17.206 [SPEAKER_02]: yet the church is an organism and he will never ever die. 36:17.286 --> 36:19.346 [SPEAKER_02]: The gates of hell cannot prevail against it. 36:19.366 --> 36:32.048 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm curious about where you sense the spirit inviting the church to repentance and reformation today from your own vantage point as one rooted in the struggles here in Africa and here in the US. 36:32.548 --> 36:32.829 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 36:33.629 --> 36:40.210 [SPEAKER_03]: And to do the first part first turns of similarities. 36:40.490 --> 36:40.750 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, 36:42.302 --> 36:46.144 [SPEAKER_03]: When I first came to this country, I ended up in Kentucky. 36:47.004 --> 36:52.587 [SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, I was in Kentucky and I was like, oh, I am home. 36:53.027 --> 37:01.971 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the South in the US is very much like the South Africa that I know of. 37:02.111 --> 37:11.775 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we were, I was in a small town, Burilla, Kentucky, which the college was the biggest thing at that point in the town. 37:12.547 --> 37:28.216 [SPEAKER_03]: And there were places that when we arrived at the freshman, that the upper class and the black students told us, don't try and go to that restaurant, because they do not treat black people properly. 37:28.856 --> 37:38.442 [SPEAKER_03]: So, excuse me, for me, it was like, oh, you know, this is familiar to me. 37:39.302 --> 37:40.703 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a reality. 37:41.769 --> 37:49.595 [SPEAKER_03]: But also the other part of the similarity for me was being in the black community. 37:49.675 --> 37:55.699 [SPEAKER_03]: So one of my friends is where I would go to Gay City, Virginia. 37:56.811 --> 38:21.208 [SPEAKER_03]: for my holiday because the friend of mine was from the city of Virginia and when I said I recognize him I mean she used to tell her now she's encouraged she was still taking her report her up and down the street in the city of Virginia to all the black people in that community because they were in this so I was like 38:21.808 --> 38:28.789 [SPEAKER_03]: This is the reality of our shared experience. 38:29.789 --> 38:49.333 [SPEAKER_03]: And so there are so many ways in which our oppression mirrors each other and also the ways in which our community has bonded and been a place of reminding us that this is a lie. 38:50.053 --> 38:52.834 [SPEAKER_03]: right in this country and in South Africa. 38:53.034 --> 38:53.274 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 38:54.254 --> 39:08.758 [SPEAKER_03]: And so in terms of the church, I always tell people that I have a little bit of like almost like a split personality because I am a priest in the institutional church, right? 39:08.798 --> 39:15.520 [SPEAKER_03]: So I am part of the church as an institution as a clergy person. 39:16.467 --> 39:33.459 [SPEAKER_03]: while also recognizing that the church as an institution is not necessarily what Jesus had imagined when he sent the disciples out to make believers of all people. 39:34.560 --> 39:43.526 [SPEAKER_03]: But the idea of the institution that the church has become, and in fact, I have a friend 39:43.948 --> 39:47.811 [SPEAKER_03]: who, and I always tell people that he said this, not me. 39:48.752 --> 40:02.084 [SPEAKER_03]: But he always said to me, the institutional church is the devil's response to the life, death, resurrection, and ministry of Jesus. 40:03.385 --> 40:10.972 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say, okay, I'm not sure if I can go about far, I can, I hear what you are saying. 40:11.639 --> 40:34.417 [SPEAKER_03]: that the church as an institution has started to pay more attention to the institution part of it than the church part of it because the church that Jesus founded, if you like, was meant to be a body of Christ that 40:35.145 --> 40:42.949 [SPEAKER_03]: Our sense of ourselves was connected to the sense of all of God's children. 40:43.670 --> 40:46.111 [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, of all of God's creation. 40:47.291 --> 40:55.416 [SPEAKER_03]: And as the institution, the church, and again, as I said, this is where my split personality comes in. 40:55.496 --> 41:01.819 [SPEAKER_03]: Because I wrap that paycheck to come in from the church. 41:02.679 --> 41:03.880 [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate 41:04.415 --> 41:07.516 [SPEAKER_03]: that paycheck from the church, okay? 41:08.676 --> 41:34.120 [SPEAKER_03]: And yet, I think that sometimes we as a church have become focused so much on who brings in the money to the institution that we have forgotten that our church was founded as gatherings in people's homes as people caring for one another. 41:35.043 --> 41:40.587 [SPEAKER_03]: that the people would say, look at these Christians, how they love one another. 41:40.907 --> 41:43.809 [SPEAKER_03]: Because there was never a hungry Christian. 41:44.110 --> 41:51.215 [SPEAKER_03]: There was never a homeless Christian because the community took care of one another. 41:52.316 --> 41:58.700 [SPEAKER_03]: That our identity was in our love for one another. 41:59.941 --> 42:03.484 [SPEAKER_03]: And so how we can put 42:04.672 --> 42:11.573 [SPEAKER_03]: Christian nationalism into the frame of Christianity, I don't know. 42:12.234 --> 42:14.854 [SPEAKER_03]: But even, I don't even have to go that far. 42:15.314 --> 42:29.697 [SPEAKER_03]: But even, I was saying of recognizing the person who pledges ten thousand dollars as opposed to the person who is only able to give ten dollars. 42:30.017 --> 42:31.517 [SPEAKER_03]: Book of Jones. 42:31.877 --> 42:34.398 [SPEAKER_03]: The value of God's love 42:34.808 --> 42:36.349 [SPEAKER_03]: where it is a dollar sign. 42:39.091 --> 42:50.501 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that our church has to first of all do the work of acknowledging that we have become an institution more than the church. 42:51.602 --> 43:03.091 [SPEAKER_03]: And then ask ourselves, how do we reclaim that identity of loving one another as God loves us? 43:05.218 --> 43:05.779 [SPEAKER_01]: So helpful. 43:05.859 --> 43:14.747 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, I often make a distinction, at least in my own mind about the church as an organism versus an organization. 43:15.974 --> 43:35.155 [SPEAKER_01]: and that it is very well alive and subject to the head of the church and the way that it moves in the earth and upholds the priorities of our Lord and also just John, thirteen, thirty, five by this everyone will know. 43:35.716 --> 43:47.385 [SPEAKER_01]: that you're my disciples, if you love one another and that real, that ministry of love and care, even amongst the siblings in Christ and what that shows for to the world. 43:48.086 --> 43:57.353 [SPEAKER_01]: I am curious, Reverend Naomi, as you think about your ministry of word and sacrament and caring for people, what do you feel like? 44:00.039 --> 44:14.771 [SPEAKER_01]: If you could preach a sermon to the United States right now, or even more specifically those who are in positions of a power who you are misusing power and resources, what text are you taking? 44:15.732 --> 44:17.554 [SPEAKER_01]: What sermon are you preaching? 44:17.654 --> 44:22.378 [SPEAKER_01]: What is the word that you have for this moment? 44:25.042 --> 44:28.383 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I have to go to the process. 44:29.003 --> 44:30.624 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to go to the process. 44:31.524 --> 44:37.386 [SPEAKER_03]: And I have to tell you all that, my favorite process is Amos. 44:38.146 --> 44:40.086 [SPEAKER_03]: Because Amos does not care. 44:40.827 --> 44:42.847 [SPEAKER_01]: Me as well, I did a little bit of that. 44:42.927 --> 44:44.248 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, no, no. 44:44.308 --> 44:47.348 [SPEAKER_03]: So, any says to anybody, right? 44:49.269 --> 44:52.270 [SPEAKER_03]: Amos is as rude as they come. 44:54.070 --> 44:54.711 [SPEAKER_01]: He's clear. 44:54.771 --> 44:55.491 [SPEAKER_01]: He's clear. 44:55.511 --> 44:57.212 [SPEAKER_03]: He's right. 44:57.872 --> 45:03.054 [SPEAKER_03]: He knows that he is not an unstoppable prophet. 45:03.974 --> 45:22.182 [SPEAKER_03]: And so for me, it would be to speak the words of Amos to leadership right now to say that God is not a God to be played around with. 45:23.831 --> 45:27.112 [SPEAKER_03]: that God is not a God to be jaded around with. 45:27.152 --> 45:27.612 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. 45:27.892 --> 45:28.372 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. 45:28.412 --> 45:49.297 [SPEAKER_03]: And that when, you know, I love that when he speaks about how they are cheating the poor in the market place, how they are stealing land from people by using illegal use. 45:53.764 --> 46:03.087 [SPEAKER_03]: That is the message, I think that our political leaders need to be hearing on a daily basis. 46:03.167 --> 46:06.248 [SPEAKER_03]: God is not a God to be played around with. 46:06.348 --> 46:11.150 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you think the fact that you can cheat people, that's right. 46:11.170 --> 46:18.613 [SPEAKER_03]: You mean that God is brushing you, then you have lost your way. 46:19.930 --> 46:27.339 [SPEAKER_03]: You, you, you might as well be back in the desert in the sunlight for thirty more years. 46:27.359 --> 46:27.880 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 46:27.920 --> 46:36.590 [SPEAKER_03]: Rather being around because you have ignored what God says God's curl on you is. 46:40.247 --> 46:50.872 [SPEAKER_03]: And particularly, I like that almost, you know, starts off by having the prophecies to all the other nations, right? 46:51.272 --> 46:53.673 [SPEAKER_03]: But he is cursing all these other nations. 46:54.073 --> 46:57.114 [SPEAKER_03]: And says, you know, there is right to stand in this thing. 46:57.234 --> 46:57.795 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 46:58.015 --> 46:58.715 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah. 46:58.815 --> 46:59.595 [SPEAKER_03]: My God. 46:59.976 --> 47:01.036 [SPEAKER_03]: That's my God. 47:01.096 --> 47:02.177 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, God. 47:02.457 --> 47:04.698 [SPEAKER_03]: You must still decide to go. 47:05.138 --> 47:07.399 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're getting our love in it. 47:07.959 --> 47:09.940 [SPEAKER_03]: And the worst 47:10.433 --> 47:13.414 [SPEAKER_03]: Condemnation comes to them. 47:14.054 --> 47:14.554 [SPEAKER_03]: Like a word. 47:14.614 --> 47:17.414 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not about it. 47:18.734 --> 47:21.315 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not being about a wearing nation. 47:21.415 --> 47:26.196 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not about that you have conquered other places. 47:26.396 --> 47:35.217 [SPEAKER_03]: It is about how you are treating the people right in your own community. 47:35.657 --> 47:37.458 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is that's it. 47:37.538 --> 47:39.738 [SPEAKER_03]: That would be my sermon. 47:40.387 --> 47:41.208 [SPEAKER_03]: for the year. 47:41.808 --> 47:42.289 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 47:42.849 --> 47:43.369 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 47:43.950 --> 47:44.190 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 47:44.210 --> 47:44.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 47:44.350 --> 47:44.590 [SPEAKER_01]: Amen. 47:44.610 --> 47:46.692 [SPEAKER_01]: And you should bring two amen's for yourself for them. 47:46.752 --> 47:47.132 [SPEAKER_02]: Come on. 47:49.660 --> 47:50.040 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 47:50.461 --> 47:52.302 [SPEAKER_02]: Reverend Naomi, you got me shaking in my chair. 47:52.382 --> 47:55.364 [SPEAKER_02]: Once I start moving and jirating in the channel, it means it's getting good. 47:55.424 --> 47:55.624 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:55.644 --> 47:55.724 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:55.844 --> 47:56.064 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:56.084 --> 47:56.184 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:56.264 --> 47:56.424 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:56.444 --> 47:56.504 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:56.544 --> 47:56.665 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:56.725 --> 47:56.805 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:56.865 --> 47:57.005 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.025 --> 47:57.085 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.105 --> 47:57.185 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.285 --> 47:57.425 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.445 --> 47:57.505 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.525 --> 47:57.585 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.665 --> 47:57.785 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.825 --> 47:57.945 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:57.965 --> 47:58.025 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:58.466 --> 47:58.646 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:58.726 --> 47:58.966 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:59.066 --> 47:59.306 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:59.326 --> 47:59.426 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:59.546 --> 47:59.726 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 47:59.806 --> 48:00.027 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:00.127 --> 48:00.287 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:00.387 --> 48:00.467 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:00.647 --> 48:00.867 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:00.907 --> 48:01.027 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:01.087 --> 48:01.207 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:01.287 --> 48:01.428 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:01.548 --> 48:01.668 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:01.748 --> 48:01.968 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:02.128 --> 48:02.288 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:02.308 --> 48:02.368 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:02.428 --> 48:02.548 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:02.588 --> 48:02.668 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:02.808 --> 48:02.968 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:03.009 --> 48:03.089 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:03.109 --> 48:03.169 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:03.529 --> 48:03.729 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:03.769 --> 48:03.889 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:03.909 --> 48:03.969 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:04.009 --> 48:04.129 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:04.169 --> 48:04.369 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:04.449 --> 48:04.570 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:04.610 --> 48:04.670 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:04.710 --> 48:04.770 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:04.810 --> 48:04.870 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:05.070 --> 48:05.230 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:05.250 --> 48:05.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:05.350 --> 48:05.470 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:05.510 --> 48:05.570 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:05.630 --> 48:05.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:05.750 --> 48:05.810 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:05.850 --> 48:06.010 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:06.050 --> 48:06.171 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:06.211 --> 48:06.531 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:06.551 --> 48:06.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:06.811 --> 48:07.131 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:07.151 --> 48:07.211 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey. 48:07.231 --> 48:07.311 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:07.351 --> 48:07.651 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:07.892 --> 48:07.972 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:08.032 --> 48:08.132 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:08.172 --> 48:08.312 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:08.332 --> 48:08.412 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:08.532 --> 48:08.592 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:08.612 --> 48:08.732 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:08.812 --> 48:09.052 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:09.072 --> 48:09.152 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:09.473 --> 48:09.593 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:09.613 --> 48:09.713 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:09.733 --> 48:09.793 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:10.533 --> 48:10.633 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:10.773 --> 48:10.873 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:10.934 --> 48:11.034 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:11.094 --> 48:11.374 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:11.494 --> 48:11.554 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:11.574 --> 48:11.654 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:11.674 --> 48:11.774 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:11.794 --> 48:11.854 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:11.954 --> 48:12.134 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:12.214 --> 48:12.354 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:12.374 --> 48:12.495 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:12.635 --> 48:13.015 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:13.335 --> 48:13.455 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:13.495 --> 48:13.635 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:13.655 --> 48:13.715 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:13.755 --> 48:13.895 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:13.935 --> 48:13.995 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.056 --> 48:14.156 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.176 --> 48:14.236 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.256 --> 48:14.356 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.396 --> 48:14.456 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.476 --> 48:14.556 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.596 --> 48:14.716 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:14.736 --> 48:14.796 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey. 48:16.297 --> 48:18.619 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, I was reading just this morning. 48:18.659 --> 48:20.220 [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I sent it to the group chat. 48:20.620 --> 48:25.784 [SPEAKER_02]: I was reading for Samuel, fifteen, God's rejection of Saul, Saul didn't listen. 48:26.644 --> 48:30.127 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just to talk about how God grieved. 48:31.187 --> 48:38.509 [SPEAKER_02]: the call, you know, calling solid up, you know, or regret it, grieve or regret, right, depending on your translation. 48:38.669 --> 48:47.412 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I just, I think the prayer for us as ministers, as leaders, is that God, that we would not cause God to grieve or regret. 48:48.192 --> 48:51.976 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, Paul, that he placed on our life to the point that he has to reboke it. 48:52.516 --> 48:54.618 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't want to do anything additional call. 48:55.058 --> 48:59.022 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I don't mean for us to be, I guess, with, you know, it's supposed to be interview. 48:59.042 --> 49:09.491 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm just saying, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, no, I said, 49:10.292 --> 49:14.995 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're not quite waking up to what's going on yet, and that's concerning me. 49:16.616 --> 49:23.641 [SPEAKER_02]: We cannot grieve God to the point that he revokes that call. 49:23.681 --> 49:26.604 [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's not unconditional, right? 49:27.084 --> 49:27.624 [SPEAKER_02]: All of you. 49:27.925 --> 49:31.988 [SPEAKER_02]: If we aren't anything from Saul, it is not an unconditional call. 49:32.168 --> 49:33.609 [SPEAKER_02]: It means revocable. 49:35.530 --> 49:58.384 [SPEAKER_02]: I pray the Lord keep us in a narrow way and walking in the light and thank you wherever they name me for shining your light, for coming to the table and talking to us like, you know, to live comprehensively under our liberty of God, the liberty of gospel of Jesus Christ and it may God keep us in these last evil days. 49:58.724 --> 49:59.364 [SPEAKER_02]: Amen. 49:59.865 --> 50:00.385 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 50:00.545 --> 50:01.966 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for your offering. 50:02.086 --> 50:03.407 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for coming to the table. 50:04.067 --> 50:10.590 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, I know that's not a traditional closed system, but you know that's all. 50:10.610 --> 50:12.171 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not in traditional times. 50:12.231 --> 50:12.971 [SPEAKER_01]: It's twenty twenty. 50:13.011 --> 50:15.652 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not true. 50:15.692 --> 50:21.775 [SPEAKER_03]: That the truth is that the truth is that the truth is that the truth is that the truth. 50:22.075 --> 50:22.395 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 50:22.795 --> 50:23.035 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 50:23.075 --> 50:23.316 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 50:23.776 --> 50:24.176 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 50:25.998 --> 50:30.605 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, thank you Reverend Naomi, too, for coming to sit at the table with us. 50:30.885 --> 50:33.970 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, thank you for having me. 50:34.030 --> 50:36.273 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it was it was a blessing and a joy. 50:36.454 --> 50:38.957 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, we want to thank our listeners. 50:39.538 --> 50:41.760 [SPEAKER_02]: for taking a seat at the table with us. 50:41.840 --> 50:44.282 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's keep the conversation going. 50:44.422 --> 50:47.564 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, share your thoughts with us about still resisting. 50:47.684 --> 50:58.553 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, whatever Naomi, too, you can share your thoughts on Instagram, threads, or Facebook at true stable, or you can email us your thoughts at asktrustableagmail.com. 50:58.873 --> 51:02.676 [SPEAKER_02]: And Black women, don't forget that true stable has a Facebook discipleship group. 51:02.716 --> 51:08.861 [SPEAKER_02]: So go ahead and answer the entry questions and you will be admitted into the group and you can invite your girlfriends to. 51:09.301 --> 51:13.522 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to rate and review the show on iTunes and to subscribe on your favorite podcast player. 51:13.942 --> 51:22.764 [SPEAKER_02]: True stable has a Patreon account so you can send your love offerings to patreon.com slash true stable or you can bless us at our PayPal, which is PayPal.me slash true stable. 51:23.124 --> 51:25.345 [SPEAKER_02]: True stable audio producer is Joshua Heath. 51:25.665 --> 51:32.206 [SPEAKER_02]: Our video producer is Dale Bradford and true stable's executive producers and host are Kevin E. Uann and Christina Edinson. 51:32.506 --> 51:34.547 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you soon on the next true stable. 51:35.107 --> 51:35.487 [SPEAKER_02]: Bye y'all.