[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everybody, it is December.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how this year has flown by.
[SPEAKER_02]: We did half a year of the shooting the shit episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: We kind of sprung it on you guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a fun thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: See see now we're going to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've really looked forward to our weekly chats, especially since we're not at the same age and see anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a really nice rest to keep this going.
[SPEAKER_02]: and literally just shooting the shit about publishing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I sometimes thought in the middle kind of of the year, I was like, are we gonna run out of things to say or talk about, but there's always other news.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have lots of juicy things to talk about today.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna talk about something that C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: brought up to me today as we're nearing the end of the year, which is like the,
[SPEAKER_02]: Best of your lists who makes them who doesn't have authors feel about that, such a great topic, or contact with mid-list, life stuff, what does it mean to be a mid-list, best seller?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that an oxymoron, mid-list, best seller?
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have some great stats about cook sales, we have some great stats about AI concerns by author.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we have a juicy episode today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think that you and I will never run out of things to say to each other, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're both overthinkers in very different ways, and so we'll always have thoughts, plus this industry.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, do you remember, okay, I had just started at the my former agency, and
[SPEAKER_04]: You are on, so I remember starting in December, which is not a smart month to start, and you were taking your two week break, everyone was, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: But I had just started, so I was still on.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember you posting on Slack, all of us posting on Slack about a gossip.
[SPEAKER_04]: I won't share what the gossip was, but I remember what the gossip was, and I tell you later.
[SPEAKER_04]: Gossip that was on Twitter, by the way, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we were talking about a Twitter discussion.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I had to do with an editor who was complaining about an agent who submitted right before the holidays and how to eat.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I know exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So then you posted the funniest thing on Slack.
[SPEAKER_04]: You were like, I am on a vacation.
[SPEAKER_04]: I need a break from the gossip.
[SPEAKER_04]: You were like, publish it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just wait one week.
[SPEAKER_04]: Give me one week.
[SPEAKER_04]: But this this interest rate does not care.
[SPEAKER_04]: about breaks or vacations, there's always gossip, which is why we'll always have shooting the shed, and speaking of vacation before we jump in, I want to know about your vacation.
[SPEAKER_04]: You took a week off.
[SPEAKER_04]: Last week, tell us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us how was it?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was great, so I am based in Canada.
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of explained it as my body is in Canada, but like my brain isn't the US, because I talk to Americans all day long.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am mostly American.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, I am my business sense over the years is just like plopped into that kind of New York publishing atmosphere anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: So because I mostly work with Americans, it was American Thanksgiving.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in previous years, it's obviously been great to have a super quiet week.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm like, I can clear out the inbox.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need to send anybody emails, nobody's expecting things for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can do client reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: I often go and oddwathers a spot called Nordique Spa, which is like a Scandinavian spot concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I usually go on American Thanksgiving to the Scandinavian spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this year I'm like, I think I'm just gonna actually take the week off.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my husband and I went to Dominican just for five days and over the American holiday.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was great and he golfed and I rode horses and kayaked and sat by the pool and you know drink my fair share of spritzes and yeah, just had a nice little vacation and I wore so much sunscreen I wore my hat I sent me the picture of me in my hat so you don't even know as a vacation I'm like covered from the sun
[SPEAKER_04]: and therefore protected from evil wrinkles and sun spots.
[SPEAKER_04]: Good job.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am proud.
[SPEAKER_04]: Good job.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can't prevent them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, some of them are going to launch like a beauty episode here of like how we're.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would love to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I both are keeping us young.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: If we ever do a beauty episode, I don't think people want us to do one.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think our listeners are at all inches.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if they work, you guys, it would be the longest episode ever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just self-care.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I even beauty, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna reframe this as self-care.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I, I am such a big self-care person.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a very long list of things I love to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: And things I've tried and I don't love.
[SPEAKER_04]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and CC's also very generous one time I was at your house and you're like, oh, I don't like this and you're just like, here's this giant perfume sample and you're out with your generous with your beauty as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you are generous, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember that it was uh, Joe Malaud sample.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't wear perfume.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't yeah at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't like perfume.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I'd hope that doesn't make my my gesture sound less generous.
[SPEAKER_02]: You told me it was the time, you were like, I don't use this, this is for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, if anybody ever wants beauty advice from non-budient influencers, let me tell you, we got that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But one thing we do know a lot about is the book business.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we will stay on our lane over here on the shooting the ship.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I pulled some stats for you guys just about, you know, book sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tried to keep you guys abreast of what's going on here There was an update in publishers lunch this week about how sales have gone trade book sales Super strong in September with the Association of American Publishers To call it the AAP just recording some some some growth a 10% increase guys Which is fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd love to see it at adult books.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're up 11.3%
[SPEAKER_02]: Printbooks led the growth hard covers up 18% which is great digital audio fell a little bit which is interesting But I guess you know with printbooks up that kind of balances out Me books too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, 8% fell.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we are great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well this also so every year I do like publishing predictions I kind of explain this I'm working on my predictions I'm not gonna spoil my predictions, but yes, I'm pretty much about that and we ever talked about how returns work on the podcast before
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like that's actually something that's super interesting because among these stats, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we're seeing all these great stats.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a stat that reads that for the month, the return rate for the month was 9.5 percent down from 10 percent last year.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like, I think if someone were to read this, it'd be like, what is the return rate?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's something that's very unique to how books are sold.
[SPEAKER_04]: Carly, do you want to tell us what it is?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which I think is an interesting stat.
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically, and it depends on the relation between the publisher and the bookstore and the chains and indies, I'll have their own relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: But essentially, the bookstores order the copies, and they only have to keep the copies of the books in the store for a certain amount of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they don't sell, they're allowed to return them, ship them back to the publisher.
[SPEAKER_02]: So all of the published authors know what I'm talking about, because on your royalty statements,
[SPEAKER_02]: You will see the returns and so they're to percentage allocated for the folks in the ship that might not sell so the fact that the return rate is down is a good thing because that means stores shipped back less copies just a point correct five of a percent but we'll obviously take that as a huge win so clearly there were some of these are not returning them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and like, I don't think that the general public realizes that books are sold on consignment.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is not a situation where the books are buys the inventory and then takes the risk of whether that inventory will sell or not, are there exceptions?
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: For example, certain special editions, right, for specific bookstores.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are bookstores.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in general, in general, books are returnable by the stores.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't mean by the consumer who can then return to the store.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that makes for very unique business model and it explains in part, not saying it justifies, just that it explains why publishers are, you know, a little bit riskiverse one might say and it's a really really unique thing I think to the book industry and not something that the usual person knows and it also makes royalty statements sometimes confusing for authors because I've seen like I remember one time one author got their royalty statement and they saw, I'm just going to say a random number here, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: they saw 8,000 copies sold and they were like so happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then in their next royalty statement, they saw that they had actually had not sold 8,000 copies because the returns were there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So actually they had sold 6,000 copies.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the author was freaking out being like, oh my gosh, there was something wrong with my books, my books were returned.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember her DMing me, this is not a client of mine, but her DMing me, I'm an Instagram, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, talk to your agent, like, there's nothing wrong with your book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, both slightly, it is the difference between cell in and cell through.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's my book scan is so valuable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Book scan does show cell through, meaning what the book source actually sold to humans, doesn't capture all sales, but it does capture most of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and I was going to say it also speaks to the kind of the close relationships between publishers and booksellers, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because publishers don't sell direct to consumer, they sell to the bookseller.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they want the bookseller to stock the copies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so often the publishers will show cover images to the bookstore to be like, hey, especially if it's a huge retailer where they want to, you know, they do extra business with it, so they want to do a special edition or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: And lots of reasons, just regular covers, they'll show the large chains to be like, do you like this cover?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they don't like it, like they say if they're like this is orange and I want blue,
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll change it to blue.
[SPEAKER_02]: If that means that the floor will take to have some more copies, the cover is going to be blue, not orange, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, there's just some big cool painting things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Gossip.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I have gossip.
[SPEAKER_04]: I once grabbed a drink.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was more than one drink.
[SPEAKER_04]: With an editor who told me that she...
[SPEAKER_04]: She at one point had a very, very, very difficult author on her list and there was a little fib that was told inside their house, this author was being very difficult with the cover and they said, you know what made your thoughts or what made your book store really likes this cover.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was not true.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, what's wrong with the cover?
[SPEAKER_04]: But they liked others too.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, you guys do that?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm shocked.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this editor had the best response.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what she said to me?
[SPEAKER_04]: She said, C.C.
[SPEAKER_04]: Aren't you the one who's always talking about how people like everyone lies?
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone withholds.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone pretends it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I didn't think this happened in this instance, though.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am naive after all.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember being like,
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm also like not in the night lovely book world right like in stories.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's do that in stories people So yeah, gossip.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will tell you who it was after we missed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that speaks to the nature of how all of this kind of works All right, I'm gonna stop you from getting in trouble and we're gonna pivot to our next topic Which is there's a really interesting study.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did a UK about how authors feel about AI
[SPEAKER_02]: And obviously there's lots of articles about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no shortage of articles about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I wanted to bring this to you guys attention just because it had some stats in it that I think were really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is from the bookseller.
[SPEAKER_02]: The article came out on November 20th by Eloise Wood, who wrote it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It said authors believe that AI will entirely replace their work according to a university of Cambridge research.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can check out that article in the bookseller.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some things are behind a paywall because I have a subscription.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if this is behind a paywall, but the article or the study, if you want to find it,
[SPEAKER_02]: is for the Minderu Center for Technology and Democracy website, and the report is called the impact of generative AI on the novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if anybody wants to track that down, that's where you're going.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so some stats that I found were interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The entire article is basically stats.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, we can kind of parse through this how we how we want to, but
[SPEAKER_02]: some of the things that jumped out at me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Additionally, almost 60% 60% of authors said that their work had been used to train AI, large language models, LLMs without permission or payment, and more than a third, 39% believe that their incomes had already taken a hit from gender good of AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, 85% of the novelists said that they expected their future income to be driven down by the technology.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I need to like, maybe do a bit deeper dive into this study as well,
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot I don't want to say that maybe it's inflammatory or dramatic or like I think this is a very qualitative study maybe not quantitative study because we can't assign financials to this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what the loss revenue actually looks like.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a lot of feelings about potential loss revenue.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to go read the study and depth the the bookseller article highlighted these stats.
[SPEAKER_02]: But see, what did you think about this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you think it was like I don't know a lot of
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is what stood out to me in terms of this article.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a quote that reads, some respondents predicted a dystopic two-tier market in which the human written novel becomes a quote luxury item on quote, while mass-produced AI-generated fiction is cheap for free.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to go on the record and say something.
[SPEAKER_04]: When I universe, if you're listening, when I say I want to stop in stories, I mean in fiction, in my inbox, please.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do not mean in happening in the world.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do not want this to stop the reality.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am deeply freaked out about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I read this whole article had me thinking and feeling all sorts of things.
[SPEAKER_04]: When I got to that part, I'm like, no, no, no, we must not go to this dystopic reality.
[SPEAKER_04]: Where there's the AI stuff and then the luxury item, human stuff, no, please no, I don't want that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying no to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we opt out?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's just a lot of layers to this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm gonna go on the record also saying that this reality exists, because we talk about AI Slop.
[SPEAKER_02]: AI Slop exists on the internet.
[SPEAKER_02]: People can buy AI Slop whenever they want.
[SPEAKER_04]: but human but this dystopic reality saying that's like few luxury item humans and then most of it AI like do you know what I'm saying can you imagine like no that does not exist that exists I can not break my heart like the editor.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think a version of this exists like and do we could call what we already have ever been in discord them
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, some of them, again, are some of these price points for the dollars or outside of people's day-to-day spending.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want to say there's more AI swap out there than there is quality books because that's not fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's untrue.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is a version of this that already exists.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I understand there's a fear of this exacerbating right in this like stratification continuing to emerge.
[SPEAKER_02]: But to me, this was a very like fear-based article.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to live in denial.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will live in denial.
[SPEAKER_04]: I take your point.
[SPEAKER_04]: Very smart.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're right.
[SPEAKER_04]: But no, I will not be living in this reality.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am opting out.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to live in a two tier to stoke the reality where there are very few books written by humans.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, I think we'll have to go back to the whole like publishing exists with under capitalism.
[SPEAKER_02]: We live with under capitalism and so
[SPEAKER_02]: like so this article goes into depth about the concept of what is the way that publishers will make the most amount of money and like again most publishers are going to fall over the money I don't think the money is in the AI slot I think the money is how it's been and how this industry is existed for hundreds of years which is like humans have to create the thing and we've always been supplemented by technology because at one point people are writing books by hand and now they write by computers and so anyway lots there's a million
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I want to know if people think they are no I don't because I know a book is expensive It's like $30 to buy like a book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean it could be less obviously, but I don't think of them as luxury items Maybe because I'm weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to know I want to know comments Where are the comments right now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you comment on YouTube guys?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah comment on YouTube comment on YouTube I'm gonna be checking the YouTube comments.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to know and there's no right or wrong answer Like I'm genuine the curious.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to know if you guys think of books as luxury items
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think of luxury items as just, like, anyway, I'm not going to get it with my stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is luxury items.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We, we're not doing this self-care episode today.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not doing the follow-carly rap pair shopping episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, no, but it we live work in this business, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So to me, it's like books from having a breathing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If that's why I love you, you know, that's my luxury.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think in the grand scheme of things, they could be anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let us know, you know, it's not a like choose a side thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more like let us know what do you think they're doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a luxury item is and whether books he potentially fall into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: The last at that I pulled from this article was
[SPEAKER_02]: Almost all, 97% of authors were, quote, extremely negative and quote about AI writing whole novels or even short sections.
[SPEAKER_02]: 87% extremely negative.
[SPEAKER_02]: The aspects novelists felt least negative about using AI for were sourcing general facts or information, only 30% were extremely negative about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: With 20% of novelists saying they use AI for this purpose.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's the like current reality, the current temperature of the room.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanted everybody to kind of settle in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Most of I think most authors that we speak with fall within these parameters, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: People generally do not want fully AI written novels or even short sections.
[SPEAKER_02]: Most people are okay with some research done by AI, but you need to talk to your agent about this and you talk to your publishers about this, because again, we need to be really careful about copyright and you know, who this was actually written by the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lots of layers to that one, but that's kind of the temperature of the room.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lots of layers.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, that is all we have for AI today.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are going to move on to substax and instagrams, but before we do that, we are going to have a message from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, everybody, we are back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Should we start with sub-stacks or Instagram today?
[SPEAKER_02]: So you see what you feel like starting with?
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, I think we should talk about best of year lists.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's talk about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, so it's that time of the year again, the most wonderful time of the year, the time when people do route-up lists.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you're a reader, one of the things you might do is check out best of year lists, meaning,
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, it could be like a magazine, it could be your favorite influence or online, like so many people are doing it and I love that they are, but they're essentially saying these are the best books I read this year.
[SPEAKER_04]: And actually, find it really interesting to know what the criteria is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, is it books that they read into on a 25?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it books that necessarily had to come out in 2025, et cetera, et cetera?
[SPEAKER_04]: but I do them.
[SPEAKER_04]: I always post on Instagram like my favorite non-client books obviously.
[SPEAKER_04]: I clients clients do not make the list because that would just be super unfair because that they would be the favorites all the time winners.
[SPEAKER_04]: They wear the crown and nobody else wins.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then there's another side to this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So many things that the consumer sees and has warm and fuzzy opinions about.
[SPEAKER_04]: After you peek behind the curtain, you might see a different side of these super fun lists.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that other side includes authors who often get sad.
[SPEAKER_04]: because their books didn't make the best of your list.
[SPEAKER_04]: And increasingly common, the anxiety of I may make it, I may not, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's that time of year, so I'm already anxious.
[SPEAKER_04]: It hasn't even begun, and I'm super anxious.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, this, I want to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was partly inspired because Kyrthana Ramesheti, author of several books, including most recently, the other Lata.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope it's Lata.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if that's actually the pronunciation of the character.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a novel that she wrote, and she posted on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_04]: I encourage everyone to follow Kierthena.
[SPEAKER_04]: So her handle is at Kierthena, Ramecetti, KIRT, H-A-N-A-R-A-M-I-S-E-T-T-A.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she posted big news the other Lata is the best book of 2025 like celebratory emojis and then more information because I said so What do I mean and then she talks about in this post again the post is so great so funny so like
[SPEAKER_04]: Just so humorous and so clever.
[SPEAKER_04]: She talks about how she's not and your time is bestselling author and she's not like a major book club or like celebrity pick.
[SPEAKER_04]: This book was not that, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And yet she seeks because she is human because she's an author validation from best of your lists and a lot of people do seek that validation whether they're aware of it or not.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I so admire people who don't seek the validation but I'm not talking about you guys and she's like so grateful when they make the list, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: But oftentimes she becomes
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know a little anxious and a little almost addicted to like checking lists.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, she found this what in my opinion is a genius way of tackling that which is she nominated herself, created her own list and celebrated the fact that it made her best of year list.
[SPEAKER_04]: Best as in, it was the most fun ready experience for her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Best as in, she had amazing life-changing experiences when promoting it.
[SPEAKER_04]: best as in when readers reach out to her she feels amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And isn't that cool?
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that energy and I want everyone to like feel inspired by that energy because I was inspired and I hope my clients were too.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that you know part of living in this industry that's super competitive and ruthless is like embracing that.
[SPEAKER_04]: embracing its capitalism, its competitive, it is what it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't mean that you can't find ways of playing with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, Kierthana did, which was so, so genius, and I loved it so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: So all the applause for Kierthana go out, support her by her books.
[SPEAKER_04]: They make for great Christmas presents.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, and yeah, and I just think it's fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just think it's fun to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it reminds me of an actor who nominated herself for an Emmy.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a Game of Thrones actor.
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe I believe her name is Guendaline Christie.
[SPEAKER_04]: She didn't get nominated by the studios who she nominated herself.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this was many years ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please, this is amazing energy.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anyway, currently do your clients talk to you about best of your lists.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this also reminds me of the award conversation, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: When it's like, you know of the award nominations, they're gonna come this day, or the long list is this day, the short list is this day, which friends are on the list, who is, who is, and so I've been through this with the award stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you list or kind of one of those things, where it's like, it's nice to be on one, but people don't always expect to be on it, and there's also so many lists.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like this round-up, that themed round-ups, non-themed round-ups, and then obviously the bookstore is due their best to the year list.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is great to be on the list, because for a bit, especially from a bookstore,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, for example, I kind of like Indigo's best books of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're stalking so many of those and those ones they're pushing on consumers.
[SPEAKER_02]: The people that only come into the store in December, you know, they, that's what they're going to buy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm guilty of it, you know, for shopping for my kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, okay, well, this is the book of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the one I'm going to grab.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really guilty of that for my kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so anyway, there's the award stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's the end of the year stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And authors do,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I'm willing to admit more than others when they are feeling slighted or snubbed by these things, but I find it's more with awards and less with the end of the year list, but everybody, you know, looks for their name here and there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, there's so many online outlets for these.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's only journalist pitching different angles.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I don't know, for myself, I don't know if you do this, you see, but I have Google alerts for all my clients names as well as all their book titles.
[SPEAKER_04]: So then I'm always like, like, you know, you taught me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you taught me to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, so I do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, oh, I just saw so it was on this list.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's on this list and yeah, so it's nice to kind of round those up, but there's going to be clients that aren't, you know, good to be nominated for awards even though they deserve it or not on the best of list, but the best of list is in our hearts guys the best of this, you know, the best of the year books or the ones that are in our hearts and the ones that we support.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we see all of you guys out there, all of you of one of words or been on list and not been on the list.
[SPEAKER_02]: We know you guys are working so hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something for Gianka.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I'm picturing Bianca in one of the very first episodes of Books with Hooks, guys you guys and have to go all the way to the archives.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was like, I don't know, first 10 episodes We've only quartered it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Bianca was talking about how Roxanne Gay has a Nemesis and like bring the Nemesis energy and you said something like No, you know, like like you just said something very lovely kind of like who he said right now like, oh, well There's no competition every person stays in their lane you can pee against yourself and be honest
[SPEAKER_04]: Cut, cut the combo yashit.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was so yummy to cut the combo yashit.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was so yummy to cut the combo yashit.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone wants to make the list.
[SPEAKER_04]: But also, but also lovely.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was really in my head.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was really funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen, let's just say we could be both.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can have our numbers as somebody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can't contain multitudes.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can think about the tunes, but also the podcast, you know, we'd love you all from the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: We thank you guys, we're all the best in our hearts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also love seeing everybody's modified rap lists where the podcast is on your rap list.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you guys tag me, yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that on Instagram, I will repost you because I love seeing every rap list.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also have best of your lists.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to go on the record and say that I do do love everyone, but I do not love everyone equally.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't believe in that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe I believe that you have a way to have a ranking.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is what it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: I Stand by it Sorry, it's true.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's who I am.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am hopped up on cold meds guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't tell Bruno, don't give CC any more.
[SPEAKER_02]: See you to men offend, please I know I know or or gives CC more so she can be more honest and make a new piece of
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to do that, but not while I have a cold because then cold meant and the wine then it'll just be a disaster.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, of course not.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's another Instagram post that really stood out to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was posted on November 19th.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are currently recording on December 3rd.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we guys pre-record a little bit ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: This post currently has over 11,000 likes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, writers love this post.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this one a little bit viral.
[SPEAKER_02]: You might have already seen it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so the author is a Jillian McHallister.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her Instagram is, I don't know if it's Jillian or Gillian, I'm not sure, but I'm going to say Jillian, Jillian, Emma author on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's verified so you can probably find her.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she did kind of a similar like Carousel style post that I thought was just so good and I saved it and as I said, I'm sure a lot of you guys found it as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so the Carousel kind of runs through a few things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it starts off with the cover image that says, I did not have five literary agents interested or even two.
[SPEAKER_02]: There wasn't a flurry of authors, nor in auction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just had one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it scrolls to, like, she printed out the email with her agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the next slide, I did not have a nine-way bidding war for my debut novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just had one offer that I gladly and kind of without fanfare accepted.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she did a two-book deal with Michael Joseph.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is all in the UK.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you don't recognize the publisher, that's why Michael Joseph
[SPEAKER_02]: But they're very, very well-known published here in the UK.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to add that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a PRH imprint in the UK for those of you that don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Next slide says, I was not sold at a 40-language as overnight.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd rank for book fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it took me nine of rank for book fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: So nine years to get these copies and it kind of shows all of her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Foreign copies on her shelf.
[SPEAKER_02]: It took me seven books to have a hardback.
[SPEAKER_02]: Until then, I had paperback originals.
[SPEAKER_02]: My debut did not get a U.S. deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then took seven novels to the New York Times.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she was on a number two on the fiction list and in 2022, fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then book eight missed and only the ninth book hit the list again, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's hard for others too.
[SPEAKER_02]: You hit the list, then you don't hit the list, then you're back on the list.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says, I know these things are often unattainable.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still have my own feelings.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, I food a Germany to accept this award, but I don't have and can't seem to get a German publisher.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like publishing is full of these ironies, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was fully an award at Frankfurt Book Fair, but still doesn't have a German publisher.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says, it occurs to me that I am kind of glad I do things slowly and she has a picture of herself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here I am pregnant with my first child at almost 38 engaged at 37.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she just talks about like how long things take to happen and just because things don't happen quickly doesn't mean they're not going to happen at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you have these highs and then you hit a low and then you go hit a high again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there is no just because you hit a list that you're always going to be on a list.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, this post really resonated with a lot of you tons of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pensive you shared it and liked it and it really hit some.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's some hard strings, and I really loved that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I loved, thank you so much for sharing that one with me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I always love everything you share for us and discuss here.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I have to say, I went through that carousel this morning.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, oh, gosh, I hope every author finds this post.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it just, it gives you so much perspective and inspiration.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it makes you feel both grateful and
[SPEAKER_04]: but not in a complacent way, in an ambitious way, and it really is a fantastic post.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if I had to describe publishing in two words, and I've said this before, like if I only got two words, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I would call it institutionalized gambling.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like finished dissentance.
[SPEAKER_04]: Publishing is institutionalized gambling.
[SPEAKER_04]: The thing about gambling is that it can be maddening and frustrating and like you might want to rip your hair up because of all the gambling and all the uncertainties of gambling and variables and lack of control right like no control but the magical thing about gambling is that at any moment you could have a winning hand.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it's rare, but if it weren't rare, then it would also wouldn't be a winning hand, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's just not how it works.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not all celebrating the fact that we have oxygen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Most of us have oxygen.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that the fact that you could be an author with seven books and then BAM your eighth could become the biggest thing ever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I always think of Leon Moriarty.
[SPEAKER_04]: I always think of the fact that she had like a solid mid-list career until she wrote the Husband Secret, she'd written multiple novels before that, all great novels by the because I read, I've read all her books and it wasn't until the Husband Secret that she made the New York Times bestseller list that she broke out and it was big little lies the ones she wrote after that they got her even more attention.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's one of those things where if you choose this industry at any point you could break out,
[SPEAKER_04]: There's no guarantee that once you make do break out, it's going to happen again.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's always a gamble.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, are you feeling lucky?
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess that's, that's the publishing question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do you care enough about the craft to, I don't know, just like, continue to buckle down every time, you know, and do the thing and write the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't get easier to write.
[SPEAKER_02]: From my understanding, I've never written one, but nobody says they get easier to write over time, different books are challenging in their
[SPEAKER_02]: their publishing experiences or challenging it different times because we go through different economic cycles and life events so yeah it's just so it's really it's just yeah anyway it's a really complicated business because it's all about humans and our creativity and it makes a really beautiful so I I thought that was really special yeah I love that okay so now let's do our other sub stack what is the other sub stack
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so the author of this one is in drama Romano Lacks, who is an author called Almost a Best Seller.
[SPEAKER_02]: She published it on November 19th, if you want to go check that one out, has a good number of likes and chairs and comments, so some of you guys might have already found this, but so the kind of subhead for this one is mark your calendars and sit back for a feisty ramble about how 44,000 copies shipped in two months, meaning very happy that did not make my
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, it's a great, you know, long read, so totally, you know, everybody go check it out and dive in, but there's a few things that I wanted to highlight, and she obviously in that subhead explains how many copies she shipped in.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the crux of the argument here, yeah, it's just really interesting to think about.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can sell a lot of copies, but it depends on when you sell those copies and what time frame and what week and any given week, whether you actually hit a best seller list.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, one of the quotes that we pulled was, because of my very good first week sales, the deepest lake, did better than 4,900 copies.
[SPEAKER_02]: My final publisher email informed that, by Sunday, six days after it published, deep asleep, had sold $6,939 copies, which was thrilling.
[SPEAKER_02]: A testament to my publisher, I'm barns a noble and an excellent book cover, and perhaps the fact that I managed to write a thriller that was different enough from the average thriller.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: The missing person's story, mother-daughter relationships set in Guatemala with a strong sense of place and some provocative themes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still not enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: A follow-up story, but anyway, hooray, publisher email said we didn't make the New York Times list because the threshold lifted to 9,700 this weekend.
[SPEAKER_02]: But glad everyone is out buying books as gifts, silver linings.
[SPEAKER_02]: So on a slow sales week, one of those 6,000 or 7,000 weeks, my numbers would have suffice.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then again, on a slow sales week, without a mother's day shopping holiday, my numbers might also have been lower.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just love that real time analysis.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love the critical thinking in this piece, I mean, I know we're not going to go back to AI, but this is why like I don't, I'm not super afraid of AI writing good content because the critical thinking, I just don't imagine it could ever replicate this, this article, the way she examined so many facets of the same event in a way that like felt incredibly self-aware.
[SPEAKER_04]: and she was able to process what happened to her almost like she wasn't happening to her, but at the same time, like, including her feelings and including her thoughts, it was just sobering and wise and incredibly well written too.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I had not heard of her as an author and now I'm going to be checking her out.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there you go, the power of lipstick.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so her and I followed each other because she does triathlete.
[SPEAKER_02]: She does iron man.
[SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't just do triathlete.
[SPEAKER_02]: She does iron man.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she's like, well, like you.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's way cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's cool for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started following her first, you know, the writing and triathlon information that she would post.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, no, she's, she's really cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, anyway, that was a good analysis.
[SPEAKER_04]: I suggested her to just want even follow one for triathlete.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what is, what, like, what does this mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's your triathlon for triathlon for triathlon.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's sports strategy.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like equipment right different sports of different equipment.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I posted I think I started following her when she actually I think I was posting about triathlons and somebody was like, oh, you should follow her because she does Iron Man So she was getting ready for an Iron Man and Victoria BC where the ocean temperature was so low They had to wear not only wet suits, but like a wet cap wet gloves and like what people do this like you like, yes
[SPEAKER_04]: People are not being forced to do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is not some sort of like medieval torture.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: People are willingly going into the freezing ocean.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she was one of the ones that was like ordered like, it's like the wets who to keep you warm, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the gloves, the hat and that sounds great.
[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds so amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really want to want to watch.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was going to say one do, but I can't even say that with the street.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, yes, that sounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also very boring to watch because I've just out there in the water and then I'm doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will take the board.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will take the board.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you can get the finish line.
[SPEAKER_04]: I never thought I'd say.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will take the boring.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said this sunlight just started like beanie on top of me, like from my window.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, is this the best way to tell you that you need to go outside and exercise?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, okay, that is fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that's why you're telling me universe, I can take it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just please don't tell me to ever go do it triathlon because I will die unless you're telling me to die.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you will die because you can have a train for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we don't want you to die.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want you to live.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: We need me alive.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I can continue making my bad jokes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think we covered some good ground today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, we've lots, lots we want to hear from you guys from about day.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought to, if you guys finally understand where returns are to, you know, what you think of best of your list.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you think books are luxury goods, we want to hear all your comments.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what the Instagram reels are for to comment on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is what the YouTube comment section is for.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for hanging out with us for another week, guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always close to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: See you next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: CC-Lera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshomen.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.