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[SPEAKER_02]: Today, on the Relationship Renovation, Podcasts is part two of the Intimacy Gap, the Silence Sabotours, Stress and Shame, and how they pull apart couples when it comes to sexual intimacy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tara Kerwin.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And my name is E.J.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Kerwin.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And we are the founders of the relationship renovation model.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We have a counseling center in Tucson, Arizona.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We have the relationship renovation at home book on Amazon and our at home community on Patreon and our

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[SPEAKER_02]: Goal, our mission is helping couples understand themselves, each other better so they have a healthy, long-term relationship.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Goass.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But the experience of us trialing an error.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So this is the second episode.

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[SPEAKER_00]: episode of our four part series and bridging the intimacy gap.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The first episode was all about what is intimacy discrepancy and how do we understand it and how can we talk about it in a way that is more curious instead of blaming.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Today, it's the silent saboteurs, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Stress, shame, and mismatch in desires.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Next week, we'll be from disconnection to connection, rebuilding safety in your relationship.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then finally creating a new intimacy story, desire, play, lasting connection, love this series we were doing it because there are own experience and many couples that we see.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They really struggle with intimacy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Under that whole umbrella, emotional, physical, sexual, spiritual, you name it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, we're excited to start our second episode.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so welcome to part 2, the silent saboteurs.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I always say that around stress, shame, mismatch and desire.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We know that intimacy doesn't just fade overnight, that it's usually kind of slowly under the weight of stress and shame.

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[SPEAKER_00]: and misunderstanding that it erodes and research on relationship stress and libido shows that stress suppresses desire because our cortisol gets dysregulated and that 70% of couples misread stress as rejection rather than nervous system overload.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So really what we're going to be getting in

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[SPEAKER_00]: wrong things in dampen and in a rupture connection with our intimate partner.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so in the first episode of this series, if you haven't already, listen to it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You might want to just pop back to and check it out because it's really talking about the intimacy gap in general and just talking about all the different sort of like aspects of intimacy that is very natural that that one person sort of craves one more another one

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[SPEAKER_02]: And today we're talking about what is sort of the external stresses that come in and then some of the internal processes around stress that contribute to our desire, our ability to connect like why it depletes it in the way it does, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking about like when we first met and we started dating and we didn't have a lot of stress.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like we were just excited, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like we had emotional connection, physical connection, sexual connection, like it felt really good.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't until like our life got really stressful after we are pregnancy with the twins.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And we blended our family together like I've never known stress like that and I've come from a really stressful environment But as an adult right I was able to like Hibernate away from that Avoid that and here I am can't avoiding that because now I have these humans I have to raise and keep alive

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I, I mean, now I know this was 11 years ago, I literally can like, I lived this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: My nervous system was so overwhelmed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I truly thought like it was all of E.J.

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[SPEAKER_00]: is fault.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How dare you do this to me?

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[SPEAKER_00]: We definitely shouldn't be together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There is not one little ounce of me that has any type of intimate desire within me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I also knew that that felt wrong, but again, it's that thing that research shows, right, that we literally confuse nervous system overload with something being wrong in our intimate relationship.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're here to hopefully help provide some information and how we can restructure that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, because I mean, the reality is that

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[SPEAKER_02]: This points to like one of the core issues that we talked a couple is just about how much our past affects our present and that when we choose to be a partner with somebody, when we choose to be with them, that means we're gonna go through life and all of its stresses together.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But the problem is when those stresses hit us and when they're prolonged especially,

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[SPEAKER_02]: right, you know, in our cases like I go internal, you know, in that prolonged stress of the twins being are coming around and blending our families or even like this year and all the stresses that we've had, like, that you go sort of one direction, I go the opposite direction.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And what that does, I mean, it does a few things, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: It like,

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[SPEAKER_02]: One, we naturally are not staying connected in a moment where we really need one another, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so if that's happening, if like we're going through a high stress situation and we're not coping with it in a connected way, what are the chances that then I'm gonna be really emotionally expressive and

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[SPEAKER_02]: and have those conversations like we did early on when we were dating while I was cooking you dinner and what are the chances you're going to have that sexual desire that you had like you did early on in our relationship.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If in a stressful moment we're not there for each other.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and this is where shame, not everybody experiences shame, however, I think a lot of people do, but they don't recognize it as shame because I just remember one, this is really stressful and I feel like I'm literally going to have an earthquake down, but I see other people handle it all the time, so like there must be something wrong with me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So now I just try harder to like make everything okay and like deal instead of talking about it with you right because I'm afraid if I share that I'm going to have a nervous breakdown he's going to think I'm less of a human and then I don't know how to parent and if he thinks like and if I talk to him about like my absolute no desire to have sex he's going to think oh my god like I totally married this person who was this other different type of person like like I really felt

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[SPEAKER_00]: that I would not be accepted, but I didn't experience it as shame in that moment.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just was really angry at you for making me feel bad.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think shame is such an uncomfortable feeling that then all the protective mechanisms come in, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I mean, and a real general way, I think, to look at this is that, like, when a couple, like us, goes through a highly stressful time.

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[SPEAKER_02]: and we struggle to be connected in it, and then it affects our intimate connection.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Then it triggers all of our negative core beliefs, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: It triggers in me.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not enough.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever I do isn't enough.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not important, I don't matter, it triggers all of yours and that feels shameful because it's like literally, it's this belief that something is wrong with me, not that I did something wrong, which is okay, that's guilt, like I raised my voice, I got upset.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I react to poorly whatever.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't there for you in the way you needed.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's just like that I can handle that that's guilt It's shame like there's something wrong with me.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then I go into protection Right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: I get into like I shut down.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I isolate myself which then

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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, interesting that my partner didn't wouldn't want to like hook up with me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, Mark and fight in you, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Shit, shame, silence is vulnerability.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then imagine if both partners are experiencing it, they are actually like, thank gosh, I'm not being vulnerable because they're avoiding already.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I have even gone to like what I'm really wanting to say, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's where,

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[SPEAKER_00]: It can get really confusing, I think, because both people are having like a shame cycle response and they don't even know it and they're both alone in it and negative core beliefs that are under it aren't even conscious to them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I would never want you to go through our relationship thinking that you weren't enough.

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[SPEAKER_00]: or that you weren't safe, that there is something wrong with you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But when you can't have that vulnerable conversation, that's exactly what happens.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So like E.J.

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[SPEAKER_00]: said, we get into our own protective mechanisms and guess what?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, there's no space for a desire there, whatever that the desire to connect emotionally, physically, sexually, there's no space for it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Why?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm in a constant nervous system overload, whether it's flight, flight, freeze, fun, it doesn't matter.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm exhausted.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you're the reason for it, because that's my protective stance.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And what if, what if we were able to rewire the system, what if we can?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what if we were able to find ways to be connected or reconnect if there is a disconnection in a stressful moment and I'm able to show up in the ways in which you need to be supported, you're able to show up in the ways that I need to be supported.

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[SPEAKER_02]: isn't there a chance then that that would actually lead to desire.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And if we're talking about just in the sex realm, maybe it wouldn't be the sexual connection of early on in our dating, but that actually it might lead to a deeper connection in that way because we've been through tough stuff together and we've managed to

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[SPEAKER_02]: and then instead of it being another source of tension between us, it's actually like a connecting moment.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like, I sort of feel like we're getting better at that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're still working on it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We're still working on it, but like, it feels like...

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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I share something with that be okay?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, just like a couple of weeks ago and I think we actually did a podcast episode on this, like we're just like a lot of lows in the last few months, right, a lot of financial stress and it's been overwhelming yet.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, EJ is really good at like keeping things to himself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I literally was like I don't know what's happening.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what's going on.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I've got to share like how this doesn't feel good and finally when EJ opened up to me about everything, even though he's probably been with holding stuff and trying to do this on his own for like a year and a half.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was like think like that was connecting because what I really wanted to do was blame him for everything that's happened and for the stress We're going through right now, but when I got to see because he wasn't talking about it, so I'm like here we go in but when he opened up and he could hear

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[SPEAKER_00]: My suffering in it and I could hear his like we're doing this together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get through this season together You know, but it's it's just one Area that like if we didn't have this safe communication now Like that could have been a deal breaker for me in our relationship or for you So the idea that you have to take emotional risks is huge here because

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[SPEAKER_00]: I get it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We protect ourselves.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't feel safe.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to look at, is that my nervous system telling that story?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't get calm before I try to connect.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's a tip by right there, calm before I connect.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it that we just don't have the skills and do I want to learn those skills and what does that mean?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because you and I had to learn the skills.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I had to get really vulnerable with you like.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've got to let you know, like my sexual desire for you is probably at a zero.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That was hard for me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not because you're a bad person.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's because of how I was experiencing stress in my body and the overwhelm I had.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And thankfully we were utterly disconnected.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think that that's what couples struggle with is that when they go through the financial struggle, when they go through the struggle with fertility,

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[SPEAKER_02]: when they have a family member die and one person was much more connected to them than the other person and so they dealt with grief very differently like when we are in those highly stressed times and it's not like we have to experience them the same.

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[SPEAKER_02]: we just have to find a way to meet really, you know, I think that's the, you know, one of the things you, I think you just said was calm and then connect is I think like sometimes we do the opposite.

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[SPEAKER_02]: No, for sure.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We're like, you come in hot in there and try to connect.

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[SPEAKER_02]: and I come in disconnected, you know, and try to connect, and neither of us necessarily like loves that way that the other person shows up.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so if I and you, like I'm never going to come in as hot and is like emotionally maybe connected or emotionally reactive as you, you're never going to come in as sort of like,

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[SPEAKER_02]: you know, subdued and maybe even even disconnected the me.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But if both of us move towards the middle a little bit and then try to connect because like we had a difficult conversation, even just a couple nights ago at night which we cut to kind of a rule not to do it, but we did it anyway and it was like in our bedrooms that we were like sitting on the bed talking about something.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But we both sort of like we

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[SPEAKER_02]: did a little bit of a week continued throughout the conversation to calm ourselves to stay present, and it never lit on fire.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It was hard because it was difficult subject matter and both of us were managing our own activity, reactivity.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But we stayed connected through it and we didn't like hook up afterwards, but but we didn't, you know, but it was intimately connecting and I guess I can't really, yeah, I can't be about like just, that's no, I mean, that wasn't like even, but I'm just saying like it just feeds into like it's not transactional either.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like, here's the other, like, big thing for me over the years, and you mentioned this a few episodes back to is, like, as I let go of any expectation, I also began to feel more connected with you in different ways, like it opened up, and those different ways may be sustained me in the desire discrepancy, because, like, I did, like,

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[SPEAKER_02]: become really appreciative of other aspects of our connection.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's like more balance.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just like when you're compartmentalized.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is huge.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When people are like, wow, we have a massive desire to scrub and see and it's just around sex.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Where is your reservoir to pull?

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[SPEAKER_00]: from other things because this is about teamwork, this is about friendship, this is about emotional connection, this is about your parenting together, this is about getting through all the highs and those like it's all under one but when we compartmentalize it and make it about let's just say sex because a lot of couples do.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's where it just feels like we must be broken and it's like where we really try in our model and with couples we're working with is like hey we hear that's going on but like what works like how can we find something that feels really good and empowering?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because we get that this other part of it feels disempowering, it's probably because of stress and shame, and your nervous system has this story now.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the two of you guys together, nervous system is really big in the story's huge.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But we've got to be able to pull from some other reservoirs of good and healthy and connecting so that we can look at this two and build confidence that even this feels really bad, we'll be able to talk about it in a way that feels good.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, we're trapped in nervous system dysregulation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We truly are.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Many of us are.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You were, I was.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yours was more flight, mine was more flight, but we were trapped in it for like at least three plus years.

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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think like couples are so hyper-focused in this like desire, discrepancy, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because sex is really the most like clearly unique aspect of our intimate relationship that doesn't exist anywhere else.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Cause emotional connection is like a lot more abstract and you emotionally connect with other people.

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[SPEAKER_02]: in different ways.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And in your sort of traditional monogamous relationship, it is so easy to say like, well, that is just with us.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And now we're not having it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have the same desire for it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's why, you know, because it's when people come into coaching or counseling, that is sort of like one of the primary

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[SPEAKER_02]: points of conflict.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's, I mean, it's just, I know that's not like eye-opening or anything, but to me it's, it's just so interesting.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so like counter-intuitive to me, how much work we had to do to manage stress together.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's almost like I'm just getting that, you know, whatever,

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[SPEAKER_02]: into our relationship that our mismanagement of stressful moments together, then all of the shame around, I'm not enough or I don't have enough of this for him, then just like spiral dust for such a long time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: right and I mean if there's one thing I like my heart could give other people just like an individual listening is just like how do I feel more calm in my body to external circumstances because our nervous system really does.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Tell our mind body to react because our heart would be like, oh, I just want to be like joyful and loved in this relationship And I want it to feel good our nervous system is like danger danger danger danger danger And we can't expect anybody else or a substance To be able to regulate our nervous system right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Why do we have such a problem with alcohol and our society man quickest way?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Just relaxes that nervous system.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we want to be able to do that internally first

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, I mean, we say rain a lot, recognize a lot, investigate nurture, tarabrox, she's amazing at it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's like my nervous system regulator.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When I'm overwhelmed or just breathing, coming down, I love going to hot yoga.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But like that is going to be the beginning of giving this a chance and to not get it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Cause even if I'm calm and you're not each day, like I will know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: And when you're not calm, you're just avoidant, but I can still feel it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I get hot.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I'll know like, oh, this isn't okay for us.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But if I don't know that, and then we get trapped into this nervous system, craziness,

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[SPEAKER_00]: us not going to be good.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then again, this story is we don't belong together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We'll never have like a healthy intimate sexual relationship again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We just got to like be done, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that sucks because we know that's not true and we've worked with hundreds and hundreds of couples that are like, oh my God, we had no idea it was there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the takeaway, the practice to walk out of this with, is if you and your partner, if you say like, yeah, there is a desire to scrap and save between the two of us.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If there's a gap there, beginning to look at, okay, is there a struggle to manage stress?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Do we do that in very different ways and have a hard time meeting in the middle?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Does our desire, discrepancy, or our inability to stay connected in stressful moments contribute to any feelings of shame of really feeling each person or one person feeling really bad about themselves, not what they did, but really bad about themselves?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's okay, like if you're listening to this and you're just like, how do we even?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Go about that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I, I love therapy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I go to therapy every week.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We'll never stop going to therapy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I do different modalities sometimes right now.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing internal family systems, but like it is okay to get support to understand shame because it truly is a very uncomfortable feeling and most people medicate from it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you truly do want a healthy relationship with yourself and with your partner,

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[SPEAKER_00]: You got to look at it, because this partner right here is not going to help alleviate it until I do something about it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: First, like, EJ can support me in it now that I can come to him and talk to him about things, but he can't fix it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And Terracant make me come out of my shell.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I have to do the work to recognize what I'm feeling, to show up, to take the risk of saying it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I love this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I actually wrote this down.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You can't fix desire, darn it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But you can nurture connection.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that is what it's all about.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And again, if you feel like, gosh, even having this conversation with my partner, like it would go nowhere, start with yourself, calm, then connect, come first, connect second.

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[SPEAKER_00]: If that doesn't work, always get support.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy,

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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's so worth it because I can tell you, like, fast forward, right, 12, 11 years later.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I know what makes me feel calm.

23:46.982 --> 23:49.987
[SPEAKER_00]: I know like going to exercise every day is very helpful.

23:50.087 --> 23:55.115
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that checking in with you all the time and being present is really helpful.

23:55.135 --> 23:59.742
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that our spiritual connection means a lot, even if we're just connecting a few minutes a day.

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[SPEAKER_00]: around, and that has helped tremendously build emotional safety in our relationship, which then is the entire spectrum of physical, sexual, emotional intimacy, deepening that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So our desire discrepancies can still be different, but that's okay.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel shame about it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: like I used to and you don't feel rejection about it like you used to.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So next week we take oh yes.

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[SPEAKER_02]: The next up we go into from disconnection to curiosity rebuilding the safety needed to do exactly what we're talking about to be together in stressful moments.

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[SPEAKER_02]: to find a way to navigate a discrepancy and desire.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's going to be a really nice kind of next step in the process.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And as always, in our show notes, you could schedule a book,

24:56.945 --> 25:22.176
[SPEAKER_02]: Discovery Call, if you're interested in coaching with Tara and I personally you could also go to our Patreon community and join it And there's our our our at home videos in there which are perfect companions to the our our at home Manual which is available on Amazon and then just a kind of a fun thing if you're interested in checking out is on our in our show notes There's also a link

25:22.156 --> 25:25.463
[SPEAKER_02]: to our emotional safety assessment.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a quick quiz.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You can take, kind of say in where you and your partner are around emotional safety.

25:31.357 --> 25:35.526
[SPEAKER_00]: And just always reach out to us, podcast at relationship renovation.com.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We love hearing from you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We love.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Right, I have like three different podcasts where we're recording over the next two weeks because listeners are like, can you please like say something about this?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, we will.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It might take us a few weeks to record right, but we got you and so please reach out.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We respond.

25:52.670 --> 25:53.811
[SPEAKER_00]: We read every email.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So again, thank you for listening us always.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Take care of yourself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Take care of each other.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.

25:59.238 --> 25:59.318
[UNKNOWN]: Bye.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Just singin' on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you have all the fame