[SPEAKER_01]: Revived thoughts is a production of Revived Studios.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Troy Angel, and you're listening to Revived Thoughts.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is another revived conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a hot second every once in a while We do these conversation episodes where we just chat about something that we find fascinating Inspired by church history, you know that things that might apply to us today or how they They might affect the way we think today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to chat today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you excited Troy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I'm excited and it is definitely inspired by Church of History when you've been running a show like Revive Thoughts for six and a half years like we have There are just subjects that don't fit into the daily grind of this sermon is by this guy and here's this guy's super great story and
[SPEAKER_01]: And those subjects, I feel like need to get covered.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we've said this before on episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not a theology podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: We obviously cover a lot of theology.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think sometimes we talk about a lot of really interesting things that wouldn't come up on a normal theology podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: But our show is not to dig into scripture in the text and break it down for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of really great exagetical and really great podcasts out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Full of people who are doing those kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not really how we roll we try to do something different and that different is we look at how the church has played out how the church has done things We look at scripture too, but just from the lens of you know us asking well how did people see this before or what was the way the church did that in the past and how can we learn from them and apply that you know understanding to our lives today
[SPEAKER_01]: or you know where to the church go wrong and what was some mistakes they made and where did they veer from scripture and i think it's just a perspective that not as many people are tackling and so i really enjoy these conversations i always walk away from them going on that was cool it was fun and we get a lot of feedback from all of you as well saying hey i know what he's also a lot of times we get feedbacks for people saying like hey no one else is ever really talked about that subject
[SPEAKER_01]: Or if he did, it's not been the way we usually approach it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's been fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they get testy, like our Christian conferences, whether they should be free or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Persecution makes whether or not the church, whether or not it's a myth that the church grows when persecution happens was another one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but I don't think I don't think that today's episode is gonna be a testy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be surprised if we end up in a big debate over this one, Joe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and finally, we did not script these.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no script to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is just Joel and I talking.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, low to a road or whatever comes out is what we got.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Troy, I just wrapped up doing like the the bibles in your reading plan, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Going through that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the thoughts that I was left with.
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of was struck with.
[SPEAKER_00]: was that people in the New Testament are a possible with the New Testament are pretty, pretty stoked to talk about heaven.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there are, that seems to be one of the main driving reasons that they are writing people up there talking to people.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see, like look at Peter and how he talks, like he is so excited to talk about this living hope that we have,
[SPEAKER_00]: that was made true by Jesus, rising from the grave, like that's the eternal waiting that we have.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's this excitement about the assurance that we have in heaven with Jesus with God.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why it kind of stuck out to me in this sense because that's, we don't really talk about having a whole lot these days, you know, we made an episode several revive conversations ago where we talked about how people don't really preach about hell anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if I recall, if it wasn't the first revived conversation, it was the second.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was one of the first ones, and it was that addressing that very situation, which was, why don't we hear anyone preach about hell anymore?
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, it's not that nobody does, but if you compare frequency mentions of hell in any of our sermons and any culprits today, and we were to go back 300 years ago, or we were to go back even, I think, 1500 years ago,
[SPEAKER_01]: you would see a significant decrease, I think, in the subject and so but ironically we made that episode and the obvious follow-up episode would be this one right here which is you also see a decrease in the mention of heaven and maybe heaven is so neglected that we didn't even think to make that episode and when you sent me the idea for this one I was like how did we not do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that was a real fail.
[SPEAKER_01]: It really kind of makes your point.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, so they're connected, they're related.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't talk about hell as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: You probably are not talking about heaven as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just something that, again, it's just not a part of, when you think about the conversation, happening amongst, amongst Christians in particularly America's, how I think of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Try to know you're on the other side of the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: There might be a different psyche around how people talk about Christianity and religion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if it's a one to one comparison,
[SPEAKER_01]: I can only speak to Asia in my experience of a few places of literature and done ministries of obviously limited and we all know that but we're that's okay we're gonna go through it anyway but I will say I do think America what America what American and Western Christians tend to focus on just because that's where the books and the podcasts and all the shows kind of stream out of those areas it tends to be the same experience around the world like you much like oh gosh there's a stupid
[SPEAKER_01]: six, seven thing that my kids been doing lately and that's all across the world and blah, blah, all right, and maybe you're a big fan of it, but you're probably hearing this and going, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I might be dating this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, two years from now, somebody's going to be like, oh, I forgot that was everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: But just like a meme spreads completely around the world and over an instant, overnight.
[SPEAKER_01]: The church, I feel like it's covering the same issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if the church is talking about something in America, I've noticed that tends to be talking about the
[SPEAKER_01]: and it seems to be talking about the same thing over in Cambodia, and it seems to be talking about the same thing in Korea, and there might be, there are some differences, of course, but we're much more universal, I think than we give ourselves credit for.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not true of, you know, I was talking about the apostles and the detestment initially, but I also feel like we see these topics of eternity in revive thoughts throughout history.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it is a more recent phenomenon that we have shifted a lot of our topical Bible preaching theological net pickings.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll give us more credit than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that, because that's not the direction I was thinking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there is theological nitpickings.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do have certainly churches that are just you go in verse by verse.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the old Babylon bejo?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, you know, pastor,
[SPEAKER_01]: finishes brief 50 years overview of the book of Romans on Romans, you know, 1626 D. A.
[SPEAKER_01]: Men and, you know, and the quote was something like, you know, we were barely, we know we only spent 50 years there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were barely able to touch the passages, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's certainly there are churches that would get in trouble for that but I think there is I think I was actually thinking it's not why why don't we talk about hell Why don't we talk about heaven?
[SPEAKER_01]: We can have a go I was helping somebody out with a project somebody who is not and I was actually really surprised as person reach out to me They were not an unfaimless person and they asked for basically some thoughts on like what was
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a reason I'm going to this, but they were basically saying, hey, what's some church history, like, especially old church history on Jews returning to the homeland, like, is there anything on that and when I like sent, you know, looked search look for parameters, there's some stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: from the early church fathers but it's very limited and I was like okay, but I know there's more how do I find it and I found it through a really unique thing that would not work as much today which is like set the filter I said okay show me like church father passages on the anti-Christ in the temple
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I set those parameters up, boom, saints' real of Jerusalem.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have Uranus, Ignatius, all these guys are suddenly exploding everywhere, because all of them are talking about the Antichrist entering the physical temple, and many of them apparently, I did not know this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But many of them have this thing that was set up, or they believe that the Antichrist will win the Jewish people in the Promised Land over by building the temple for them, or promising the temple,
[SPEAKER_01]: only to desecrate the temple in the three and a half years or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was really interesting really fascinating study, found a ton of information, was able to get that to that gentleman, and he was very appreciative.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you may say, okay, so what's the point in that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we don't talk about the anti-Christ anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't talk about heaven and hell anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't talk about in-time stuff anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you go, well, I have an uncle that goes to a church.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, maybe you got no a couple of churches talking about those things, but I promise you,
[SPEAKER_01]: back in the day, church fathers, famous names, from Jerome to Augustine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Augustine has a line, I didn't know that he has a line, he goes like, he's walking down the half of the in-times are going to look and he's like, his line was like, the Antichrist comes, the Jews convert, and then it's in the judgment.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't see that today.
[SPEAKER_01]: The famous theologians of today aren't talking about the Antichrist.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not talking about that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: They might be talking about heaven and hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: but they're not talking about it the way we used to.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're probably not talking about judgment day.
[SPEAKER_01]: What has happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: Somewhere along the line, I can't put the pin on the day it happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the last 100 to 150 years, we have switched from talking about these serious subjects that used to be very common throughout church history.
[SPEAKER_01]: to a different type of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way I think about it, Joel, is I remember when I was younger, people used to ask this question a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the question was basically like, would you like, would you want heaven without God?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you, did you ever get asked that question in Bible College?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I've never heard that question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never heard that question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like would you still want to have an if God wasn't there?
[SPEAKER_01]: I got asked that question in you I got asked and what it is and if God is not Doesn't make any sense, but it was like a question it was supposed to be like So deep because the idea I guess is that you're like, oh, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually just want to go to heaven I don't actually care about God, but if you really care about God you would go I want God even if I don't want to have I think it's like the idea you're supposed to walk away from this with
[SPEAKER_01]: And with that's kind of that that question is kind of like the attitude I feel like somewhere along the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: We stopped preaching about what's coming afterwards.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if we got scared about talking about eschatology because you know, in time stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Siri, that's the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to interject here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, and this is going to be a little bit controversial.
[SPEAKER_00]: But people are going to like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: feel like more than the anti-car stuff I just went on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it connected to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like maybe the slight decline of dispensationalism amongst the American Church in recent years is a factor in this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: People, well, you're talking about intimes in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, as people try to make sense of that, we have gotten frustrated at the side-checked and the glory of heaven and the promise of it has been a casualty, you know, a biceandered in that debate, which is, because, yeah, that's kind of where I was going to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I completely keep going.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you read Revelation, again, we like to nitpick theology, like that's our human nature, especially in America, in the 21st century.
[SPEAKER_00]: But John stoked about heaven, like when he's talking about it, he's not laying this out and communicating this to give us something to fight about, or to give us something to debate about.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's saying, hey, there's judgment coming, but you
[SPEAKER_00]: Yo, our names are in this book of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we were safe from God's judgment, and that is something to be celebrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is something to get excited about.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, he seems to be excited to give us hope and peace in being secure and Christ at the judgment time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of insinuating across the whole New Testament and here as I see all the apostles talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went over there, they're talking.
[SPEAKER_00]: they're not trying to so discourse they are trying to unify us and get us excited about and they're clearly excited about it like it's it's real to them that that's the motivating factor and why they're doing what they do is we are so excited that we get to spend eternity with Chris like that is why they are starting churches that's why they're preaching that's why whenever whenever the apostles are writing to people to correct them
[SPEAKER_00]: The correction is secondary to the effect of guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have it like Are you are you dumb like are you losing side of what's like really important here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't we thinking about having these things?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, so even that right there you just said like they're doing what they're doing for heaven But there are people who it's it would maybe immediately go like
[SPEAKER_01]: Whoa whoa whoa we do everything to the glory of God God does we does for the glory of God, but it's almost like we've and maybe you're somebody's listening Like nobody does that, but they kind of do and it's almost like we've disassociated the idea of Christians going to heaven is to the glory of God and Like being excited about rewards and heaven crowns of life and all these things I mean Paul wouldn't be writing these things if they weren't something we were supposed to be excited about
[SPEAKER_01]: and looking forward to and enjoying the idea of we have a long suffering life maybe on this world, but there's an end to that long suffering and we will be rewarded not by the greatness of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know we turn around and put the crowns back down on Christ's feet, but for the glory of God, he is excited to reward us.
[SPEAKER_01]: with heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think of there's the sermon we did, Jonathan Edwards, I think it's called heaven, but it's like it's actually called something like, the originally it was like, you know, heaven is a world of love or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Best sermon on heaven, I've ever read a herd.
[SPEAKER_01]: By, you know, this guy from the 1700s, John the Edwards Course is not some, this guy, he's a great famous preacher, but he just lined by lying, explains what heaven is going to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you've ever heard of sermon, sinners, the hands of an ain't your God, and you haven't heard of sermon on heaven, you're missing half the story, because
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sermon on heaven is just as detailed and just as powerful as sinners in the hand of an angry god and it he goes through it So detailed he makes you think it's a real place.
[SPEAKER_01]: He helps you see it as a real place and it makes you want to go there and that is good And there's nothing wrong with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me get back to what you said because he said there's a decline in dispensationalism Now some people are gonna be listening that ain't going while I'm posting on I'm mom and I'm whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't you know I'm pan milling all pans out in the NES.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we know that joke
[SPEAKER_01]: But you, okay, here's what I mean though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if you're in those camps and you go, I think it's good that dispensationalism is declining.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think if you think that you've thrown the bathwater, you know, the baby out the bathwater here, because you're basically saying, well, don't look forward to something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't look forward to these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't look forward to a rapture or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're too busy trying to not live for the future.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, not live in the now because you're thinking of being whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's like all these things got thrown out together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as people left that idea of the in times and we're not going to talk about anti-Christ anymore, well it's also with that win judgment day and then with that seems to have gone hell and heaven, but there's another thing too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in the rise of our culture of, I don't know how to put it, but like therapy, expressionism in your, you know, everything's about you and your identity and who you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've also begun to quick hearing about these bigger things like heaven and these beautiful places we're going to go to.
[SPEAKER_01]: because Jesus became all about how you feel and how you won't feel shame anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: You won't feel guilt anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll walk and freedom.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll be broken from this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And those things are true, but it's almost like everything about Jesus is just for the here and now.
[SPEAKER_01]: and not for the later on as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: As I feel like sermons are all aimed at, you gotta convict them of their sins and help them with what they're struggling with today, what your congregate and so the idea of bringing heaven into that, Sunday you'll feel better because you're in heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds almost like antiquated old.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's not gonna make anyone feel actually better.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've gotta give them hope for today and how to live out their faith today and everything's about the right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: The what will, you know, your people are coming and sick tired of worn out
[SPEAKER_00]: broken and chained to slins and all this kind of things you've got to you and yes of course gospel does that but it's like as we're aiming so much to help them today we're not giving them a future like if Paul sat down with us or Peter or John like no matter what we're doing that evening whether we're fighting about something or we're debating about something whether we're having a good time I feel like they would start off by just saying like guys
[SPEAKER_00]: How cool is it that like our eternity is secured in Christ?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like that seems to be how those conversations go.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you read, like next time you're reading through the New Testament, like literally read through Paul's letters, or read through Peter's letters, that's how they kind of frame everything is like eternally secure in what Jesus has done.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can realize what Jesus did when he rose from the grave.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you are, we got that eternity.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot, how great is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the framework by which all the rest of their thoughts and instructions are kind of all centered around.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's no longer the framework for how we engage in conversation nowadays with other believers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's a bad thing, you know, like maybe we can go back to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, here, let me throw you a very practical real example and you'll be in somebody in overseas where at times you've seen this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: 150 years ago, if a missionary or somebody overseas is experiencing any kind of persecution, unless things were just absolutely unbearable, the conversation was basically like,
[SPEAKER_01]: deal with it like that's normal you're in China or you're in India like you're gonna be persecuted that's what you sign up for not that we don't feel bad for you of course we do but like that's your that's what you're they're going to experience everyone on the field everybody's been there for a while it's gonna be like yep that's normal now
[SPEAKER_01]: First, sign of danger, even the beginning are inklings of a problem and you're getting calls and you're getting red alerts and you're getting embassy things and people are saying, hey, my, my native scatter for a while might not be safe might not be the time might, and do I want a bunch of our Christian brothers and sisters and Christ to die around the world, of course not.
[SPEAKER_01]: but also the idea that they would like that is not it you know what I'm saying like it's almost not on the table anymore like well we have to save them their physical lives are the most important thing but they're not actually like there is a heaven and if Christian brothers and sisters and Christi serving the Lord in harm's way we know they're going to that play and that sounds like a whole totally maybe somebody's hearing this and going what is wrong with you people there we don't want Christians to that but I'm just saying it's completely different change about look.
[SPEAKER_01]: hundred and fifty years ago it was normal to take missionaries and send them to some of the toughest places because you knew that's where they needed the gospel the most and now we we taking every mission organization takes a far more safety first approach to missions whether that is good or bad it is definitely a huge change from one hundred and fifty years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that won't, I mean, you're bringing up the persecution side of things, which I totally understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like even in just the day-to-day psychology of interacting with this world, you know, we talk about how a lot of people act like hell doesn't exist, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, we might acknowledge that it exists, but we don't live like it exists.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but in a lot of ways,
[SPEAKER_00]: the truth the same is also true about heaven like we don't really live like ever exists either like that doesn't affect our outlook on life very it's it seems very unreal and distant and we're content kind of leaving it in some type of unknown realm i'm fresh off again reading through the new testament and so like that's kind of it's resonating with you but that's not how they're talking like that's not how the the reality of the joy that these
[SPEAKER_00]: from their eternity and cries is so exciting to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it's not hell that's motivating a lot of these conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the excitement of getting to share heaven with people.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's motivating these conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is just, again, it's, I'm looking around me, and I'm not seeing a whole lot of those conversations taking place anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: even if I think about our worship songs, like when I go back to the seven images, I go to the little great awakening, I go to Charles Wesley and those guys, I feel like heaven is such an important part of what they're singing about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It comes up a lot, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's thinking about these higher things they're singing about what I know there are a few.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when I think of modern worship songs and look, I'm not an expert, but I do hear them from time to time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think of a lot of songs singing about heaven or our reward in Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always, it's always chains.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're always singing about chains being broken somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're always singing about like how God's presence is coming to us right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I can't think of like any, can you, I mean, my missing a big famous, you know, song on Caleb right now or something where it's really all about heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's certainly, I can name some hands, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got some bang or hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess there was that classic, was it Michael W Smith or something?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, will I, you know, will I stay in before you ask this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can only imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can only imagine they so since I can only imagine has there been any other really big songs on heaven and compare I guess compared to the number of songs about other subjects to the number of songs that are coming out regularly about heaven I think it's just not a very popular subject even though I mean come out what what an easy thing to sing about right Like I could see why the songs about hell aren't you know hitting the worship charts as much But I just feel like it it would make sense to sing about that more the great excitement of heaven and what we're gonna be in but it almost never comes up
[SPEAKER_01]: but that's not historically the way it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are lots of songs about heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or at least mention, you know, amazing grace, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: When I've been there 10,000 years, it's a common part of what they're doing, that's not there as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think,
[SPEAKER_00]: our current a mayor or just humanity in general doesn't seem to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just seems like people have, why do you think it's hard for us now to find joy motivated in our eternity with guys?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it just, I mean, you know, this is, I feel like this is the answer to every problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, it's the short attention span that we all have right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will have this gratification.
[SPEAKER_01]: How many times have you heard somebody say you just wanted to
[SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, is there some truth to it?
[SPEAKER_01]: At least do we think that's what people want.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the church is going, I can't preach to them about heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: Heaven's such a lofty theological concept that they're not going to, you know, he's not going to make you feel better today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need them to have something today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm going to skip heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not an important subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to talk about something else.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could it just be simple as that?
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't apply to what's going on this week, you know, or this month.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're just going to skip it because you don't, you know, that's not what you need today and it just has become skipped a skipable, you know, so it's the intro credit of a movie just hit skip over it and that's it's happened for so long now.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one even notices that they're just skipping over it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe something as simple as that, but I just think I think I think another aspect of it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like our current culture just likes to be more grounded.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't like to spend time talking about more mystical concepts like the spiritual realm when we can be talking about geopolitical issues or, you know, the dynamics of our local politics or whatever it may be.
[SPEAKER_00]: We like to be more relevantly grounded to what's going on around us at this exact moment in a physical space.
[SPEAKER_01]: We like to show off theological concepts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, you're gonna get a lot more, you know, wow, that was really deep Greek you used explaining the, you know, the trinitarian love, a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you are going to be about getting up there and going, like, isn't having great, it's gonna be awesome, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, I didn't think that a lot of people are, and not saying that's everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, people are preaching for good reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's maybe go to the pastors about them for the down there.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're really, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're got people.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all doing their best.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, all the stuff that they're preaching about, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying they're bad things or that they shouldn't be getting discussed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think good-friendly discussion and exploring concepts is good and well-needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't seem to have that same framework that the apostles seem to frame it in when they were talking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's, in the dressing of the one, could it be the fear of like, I don't want to be seen as a fundamentalist church, like I think a lot of what we do today is a reaction to well 80 years ago, there were maybe some of these churches still exist of course, but there were people in suits who were yelling, you're going to hell, if unless they emotionally, you know, that's the old phrase right, they're going to emotionally manipulate you and to believe in Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I am so scared of people thinking my church is like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That first I stopped preaching about hell, but then I got nervous and I stopped preaching about heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: And none of the other churches that are, you know, that I want my church to emulate the big church down the road, or even the small theological church that I'm trying to this pure whatever it is, nobody's doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've all stopped doing it together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it just, because that's something too, we don't really, and this is one of the things I love about churches for that, whatever my thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: is because we live in such an echo chamber of today, you know, all of the pastors are reading the same books that are fresh out coming out by their favorite pastors and they're all going to the same conferences together and they may be different denominations or different brands.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of like they're all in the same echo chamber talking to each other about the same issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you do that long enough, you maybe don't realize that subjects like heaven and hell have kind of just They disappear, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't you realize no nobody else is talking about heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody else is talking about hell But man, he just did a great series on Exodus.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just did a great thing on you know blah blah blah blah I want our church to go through something similar.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna go and they're all moving together and at just some point people didn't realize that these two important subjects
[SPEAKER_01]: subjects like, you know, the Escatale, all these things kind of just disappeared.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now we're living where a lot of people just don't hear them at all, and it's just gone, and but it was almost as if it was on, like it was not like a conscience effort.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, maybe it started, again, I don't want to be like that fundamentalist picture in heaven and hell, but then eventually just kind of disappeared.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're right on as something in the sense that like I do feel like we're on the backswing of that pendulum swing you know as far as not wanting to look like church is did 50, 60 years ago will that pendulum swing back you know like I don't know and I'm
[SPEAKER_00]: a little bit concerned because like if our motivation for chatting with people, chatting with people, you know, for for ministering, for evangelizing, for fellowshiping with believers is not to share the good news.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and that sounds so cliche, but like to share about the eternity we have secured in Jesus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then what is the motivation for churches to operate and it doesn't, you know, that like they're they're Drifting apart from each other in my and my observation what it seems like to me Well, and if you think about it too how many churches?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean really do evangelists at campaigning like we're bringing your neighbor who doesn't no cry Like every church would say yeah, of course We want your neighbor who doesn't know Christ to come into our doors
[SPEAKER_01]: But how many churches are actually like having meetings saying, hey, we're going to disciple you and how to do this so that you know how to share the gospel with your neighbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: How many churches are actually, you know, going out of their way, not just doing a couple community events, but really training their people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's how to talk to your loved ones about heaven and hell or praying about those things even.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it even seems to like not even be a part of
[SPEAKER_01]: a gospel presentation anymore these days or like like a church invitation or or whatever it is come experience the love of Christ or the body of Christ or what I was trying to say earlier it's always about yeah God loves you Jesus is here for you he's or even he saved you from your sin glorify God by coming to him but heaven and hell are not present which is which may be part of what say what
[SPEAKER_01]: on the mount and he is so clear that hell is not the place you want to go and he's also so clear that heaven is the place you want to go and he makes it very appealing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul is constantly like there are rewards, there are rewards, it's gonna be amazing and it's like it's it really does
[SPEAKER_01]: It almost comes across like we're too good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, you backwards people use heaven and hell, but we bring you into relationship with God by talking about the great relationship with your father that can be restored.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think heaven and hell is, if it's good enough for Jesus.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably still good enough for us to use it today, and you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: The great awakening, John the Networks, John Wesley, George Whiffield, they used heaven and hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Charles Fergen, famous preacher, he used heaven and hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of the people that revived thoughts that we look up to, they used heaven and hell too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the reason we're not seeing as much of that, action happening today that we would like to see is because we stopped believing that that part of the story was important.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like it has a negative impact on our psyche, like just as a society.
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I get, oh, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, no, no, you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was gonna say, you reminded me of a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember when we worked in China about a decade ago, there was unbelievable amounts of inviting amongst the people we were doing ministry where I, at least in the night, we were young, we definitely made a few mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: but a lot of people there were not there for the right reasons, and it was pretty bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that the Chinese woman who was the vice principal of this school was hearing a lot of people talking about their church, their ministry hurts, their this, they're that I don't look, I will not go into that, but I'm not a big the hurts kind of guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so I was never one of those guys, but she kept getting these things and eventually I remember she kind of got up and was giving a devotional at the school and she just goes, we can talk about our hurts and the things that bother us all day long, but shouldn't we also remember to be grateful and look at what Jesus did on the cross, like isn't that so much bigger?
[SPEAKER_01]: His hurt was so much bigger than our hurts, and we're gonna be in heaven together someday, isn't that so much bigger?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are we fighting so much and I never forgot it because I was like yes, thank you somebody's finally saying what I feel like if we just keep heaven and perspective we keep the cross in perspective I really think it would change just how much we interact and and okay somebody bothered you at church you're going to go to heaven because Jesus died on the cross maybe
[SPEAKER_01]: We can forgive and let some of those things go and maybe, you know, you're fighting with a sin, maybe if you remember that you're going to go to heaven because Jesus died on the cross, maybe you'll remind yourself that you have a victory that's a shirt like you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you'll look at the person next to you and yeah, you'll share the gospel with them because it's the glory of God and that's what God has called you to do, which I'll share the gospel to them because you love them and you want them to be beside you in heaven someday and if it's speak, if the only thing keeping them from knowing that is Jesus' news on the cross that they haven't heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it'll encourage you to share it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that we've lost that focus of heaven and what it does for us, like you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to read, I'm going to read a passage here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this is first Peter starting it verse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And remember, like Peter's about to go on to call out and help and address
[SPEAKER_00]: some like real issues and struggles that the dispersions that he's writing to, you know, are struggling with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like everything is hunky-dory in peace and fine and everything like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's some serious sin things that he is addressing, but he starts by saying this.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_00]: According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again
[SPEAKER_00]: to a living hope through the resurrection of Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, unfaithing, kept for you in heaven, who, by God's power, are being guarded through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, in this you rejoice.
[SPEAKER_00]: this is what we are rejoicing in.
[SPEAKER_00]: This great mercy, this living hope, this imperishable, undefiled on fading inheritance that we have kept for us in heaven.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how he starts the conversation with other believers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just can't remember the last time I've been with other believers and they have said something similar to something similar to the fact of this is where we find our joy this is what we rejoice in and that's what Peter's commanding us to do is to rejoice in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just scared to these days, it like, whether it's because it seems so far away and so mystical or it's just not how we want to come across.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to come across as like some, I mean, maybe I'm reading into it or, but that's how kind of how I feel like that conversation is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, that you're less likely to be taking seriously if you're talking about some invisible realm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I totally understand how that might look like from the outside.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, what are we doing if we're not facing our structure off of what we see in the Bible here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if we believe the Bible, this is kind of one of the main key components of how we structure our psyche and our world view.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just something that doesn't seem to be a part of how a lot of people's world views are.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know myself included in some respect.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess this is kind of like a kind of more recent conviction of mine just past few months finishing up again that that reading plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I
[SPEAKER_01]: I heard a sermon, so this was like, in the last year or two, I heard a sermon in the community that I'm within, where a person was, you know, kind of like a break week, you know, not the normal flow of the sermon, so the person got the choose to subject, and they chose the subject of heaven, and they just laid out for like 40 minutes here, my thoughts based on scripture of what heaven I think will be like, and people have been talking, you know, ever since then about like, man, that sermon on heaven, what an impact it had on them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, like people are start for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: People are hungry for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: People want to hear sermons on heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: There, I will even go back and say, I think they want to hear sermons on hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they even want to hear sermons on the antichrist and in days.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they want to hear
[SPEAKER_01]: these deeper subjects.
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in a really shallow world where, yeah, you know what, the whole instant gratification itself is shallow, you know, a short-term memory thing is a little bit true, but you know what makes that makes the deep subjects of life stand now all the more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you are a pastor, or if you are leading small groups, or if you are working with youth, or you are even just doing family devotionals, don't be afraid to talk about heaven, talk about hell, get deep with your students, or your people, or whoever you're ministering to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people are hungry for it, I think in the world today we need it and I think that the reason why Jesus talked about heaven and Paul talked about having so much is because it's what gives you hope when people are dying, when life is hard, when you're suffering, when things are not easy, knowing there's a heaven at the end of that story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure makes it a lot easier and I think in in when you're preaching and sharing the gospel like you said Joel Don't be afraid to say by the way heaven and hell is a part of this You don't want to go to hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do want to go to heaven trust in Christ for that You're not being less spiritual you're not being less authentic You're not emotionally manipulating them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're doing what Paul and the apostles and Jesus did as well You're doing what the gospel tells you to do because we do believe
[SPEAKER_01]: that Jesus not only saves us for our sins for life today, but that we will see him again in heaven rewarded, like you said, with these imperishable rewards.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know why we, I'm with you, Joel, it's a weird thing we do, and I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never fully gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never understood like one of my favorite things about being a Christian I'll admit is I can't wait to go to heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to see people that I love again in heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to see God in heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to have a perfect body and a perfect life and no more I'm excited about it and I don't I don't know like you said I don't know why we as Christians barely ever talk about it or as I mentioned earlier sing about it either.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's obviously multiple facets to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's obviously multiple approaches and people have differing relationships with heaven, but I feel like one of those might just be kind of that lukewarm Christian to where their faith isn't hasn't made it real for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not something that they really can relate with or identify or find real for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we have a lot of things that we maybe put a different way too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it that we are so worldly minded that we are so focused on the material things of today that the idea of an eternal home where Jesus is that the idea of this world is passing the way that the things of this world are not all there is is
[SPEAKER_01]: painful for us, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we have the eyes for this world and so thinking of heaven it would make it would have to force us to reconcile that our comfortable lives here are not forever and that maybe is a really difficult for us to do and so we just don't because we why talk about heaven a place far away when we can just enjoy singing about today and my relationship with God right now and that just is easier
[SPEAKER_01]: than thinking about the fact that this is all passing away.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's kind of like with death.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a subject that a lot of churches, and another subject church is kind of tend to avoid, because uncomfortable it's messy, it's scary, it's gross, it's fearful, and we just, we don't want to think about the hard stuff in life.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to make everyone very comfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so sadly, you would think heaven would be comfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: You would think that would be something
[SPEAKER_01]: that would make you feel good, but I think because it's associated with death, because it's associated with everything that's coming with judgment and hell and all those things, it gets lumped in, and maybe that's why, you know, I think we stop talking about hell a lot earlier than we stop talking about heaven, but eventually you couldn't talk about heaven without also mentioning death, and we don't want to talk about death, because death is scary and sad, and it brings up people's feelings and traumas, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we just stop talking about death,
[SPEAKER_01]: L, heaven, in times, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we become this neutered, sad version of the church, and we wonder, man, why did the Great Awakenings happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Then why did the Great Proachers live then?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we have them anymore?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's changed?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the answer is, we're not talking about the real stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a big part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can talk about the fact that it's changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty clear that it's changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to now make that, you know, we have to now start bringing it back up.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't, we can, we can, we can more and that it has happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we also, if we want to see a change if you're a pastor listening to show, bring up heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a small group leader, get it out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Start talking about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: A challenge, not challenge your pastor, or we don't go.
[SPEAKER_01]: but they ask the question and then, you know, and they elders mean it, I, you know, what would be a series, where do we bring this up more, or, you know, what can we do, what can we do to train our people to share the gospel and bring up heaven and hell as a big, important part of why that is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even just saying it, there are some churches where you might be the first time they've heard the echo of death heaven or hell and that church is always in a couple of decades.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would almost guarantee,
[SPEAKER_01]: that as somewhere along the line, almost every church in America that has made any meaningful impact for the kingdom, I had some point along the way that people who founded it were thinking about heaven and hell and about the people that would come through those doors hearing the gospel and they would be able to go to heaven when it's before they were headed to hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we owe everything like our legacy of Christianity, you owe your faith probably to people who faithfully believed and preached about heaven and hell, and we're scared that you didn't know the gospel or we're concerned that they were not preaching.
[SPEAKER_01]: across some Christ of people who were headed to hell, and so they made the difference of sharing it with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now it's our duty to pick up that responsibility and continue sharing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And not just let it fizzle out here, but to actually talk about that very important subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the world where very few people are being the ones who do will stand out, and I think make a big impact.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I just imagine, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, just imagine how with it being, again, such an echo chambered out subject, how much your local minister, your church, or your family, even if just them, would make an impact if you were talking about this on a regularly basis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's let's close it around.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have a topic for us to talk about or you think might be fascinating, email us revivethats at gmail.com or if you have added comments to make to this episode, we'd love to hear your thoughts as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Revivethats at gmail.com also in the show notes down below if you want to reference that later, but give us an email.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd love to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, we are looking forward to those emails, messages, comments, and hopefully compliments and not complaints, but I can see it going either way after this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Troy and Jill, and this is for by-thoughts.