[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, everybody, JJ Cooper or Jeff Ponce, another baseball on the American Prospect podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think this is the final of, we are doing this fix it series, where we are trying to help fix suggestions for how to fix teams that have been struggling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we saved the the the the the biggest for last in a lot of ways and I'll explain that in a few minutes, but Jeff, great to see you we're fixing the angels today.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to try to lay out how the angels can get back to success.
[SPEAKER_01]: feels like a daunting task for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: What about for you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Perhaps, I mean, you know, maybe, maybe, already will listen to this podcast and bless us with a pool host and Hamilton's size contract.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm inspired by Lane Kiffin this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm trying to be awkwardly mobile on the podcast, JJ.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess I'll be losing you and, you know, like, and then you'll be sending us messages to save you and I'm displaying, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but so that's where I wanted to start this, which is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like a bold statement, but I think it's actually really true, which is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do believe that the angels and I know that there are pirates fans out there and Rocky's fans and maybe a couple other fanbase like, no, no, the angels are not the worst team or the last decade.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I actually would argue that they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again,
[SPEAKER_01]: We are talking about a battle royale of teams that have really struggled, but I do want to make the case for why this is the case and I'll start here, which is okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll start with playoff appearances, which is a really big argument here, which is, is you notice that the angels are down there at zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: Stockgood for a team that has been spending money, normally has been a top 10 payroll most years.
[SPEAKER_01]: A team that has had Mike trout for the entirety of that time and a team that had showyotani for the entirety of his pre-friagency career.
[SPEAKER_01]: Six years of showyotani as well and still no playoff appearances, but I'm not done.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have also the fact, why is it, okay, hold on, let me remove that and give you this one, which is winning percentage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the angels have had a 445 winning percentage over the past decade, which is not the worst in baseball, but it's near the worst, and now we're going to point out again like the teams here at the bottom.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have other teams like the white socks have been bad, they've been terrible, but they have a playoff appearances, the Rockies, the royals have had playoff appearances that they've got Bobby with Jr. Pirates is the one that you could make the argument, and the marlins have had though, they've had their moments, they've made the playoff choice, and by the way, no one's going to argue that the tigers have been worse, they may have had a time where they were worse, but no one has argued that they're worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the other thing that I would say is one more key point
[SPEAKER_01]: then this is the one that really jumps out.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's only one team over the last decade that's failed to ever have a winning record.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels haven't been 500 in the past decade.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as we laid out before, that is with
[SPEAKER_01]: I try out that is with showyotani that is with as you said like this is a team that has I will say this is one of the things we can start with is kind of like what are the biggest problems here which is no organization has probably try to to already marinas credit you can argue with the pirates you can argue of notting that he is not spent no one can say that about our
[SPEAKER_01]: will spend, but more no one has spent more money on players just past their peak heading into the decline phase of their career.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just saw Anthony Rendone, they just negotiated a deal that Anthony Rendone is retiring.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anthony Redone was a great player and his time is a great player.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was turning 30 basically as the angel signed him.
[SPEAKER_01]: His time is a great player could almost, you could say coincided with becoming an angel.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the end of his time.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you can even argue that, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: Rendone though he had a few year peak where he was arguably one of the best two way players in terms of value defensively and with the bat in the game.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anthony Rendone, like dating back to when he was in college, there were questions about the one, and how much he liked playing baseball.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there was also the Josh Hamilton contract, and there were certainly issues and concerns with Hamilton, of course, based on his history.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think you look at some of the other side of it, too, where there were one to take on big contracts that have maybe some
[SPEAKER_03]: interesting risks that I think other teams probably would have flocked at giving those guys those kind of deals for that reason.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, at the time Hamilton was joined in pool hosts and, you know, a young might trout.
[SPEAKER_03]: It looked like it was going to be, you know, the Dodgers and then obviously never came to fruition.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think just even so did not make, they've had, yeah, they've had bad luck too, but there's some other stuff that's gone on within the Angel's organization over the last 10 years that I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: whether we're talking about the Rockies, whether we're talking about the Pirates, the Nationals was obviously another one that we did, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: None of those teams have had some of the tragic stuff that's kind of surrounded this organization too.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it even goes beyond already marina.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's been pretty substantial dysfunction but the angel's organization.
[SPEAKER_01]: There has been this function, but I would also say with this, like you let, when you talk about random when you talk about pools when you talk about Hammond when you talk about Vernon Wells we could keep going back when you talk about these players.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have been paying top of the market money for players who, I did a piece, there's a piece coming up at baseball America, well, I'm gonna kind of take in this research project a little further, but I'm looking at five or a season, which I kind of really, that is a star level season.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels have somehow with having Otonian trout,
[SPEAKER_01]: have only synced up to have two players have a five or a season the same year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once in the past, over a decade, 22, Troutton, Otoni were both healthy, they both did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing that jumps out with that for a team that signed all these players, Trout and Otoni are the only players who have produced a five or a season for the angels going back to, you at the last number before that was Dan here
[SPEAKER_01]: So...
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking that for almost a, you know, for over a decade now, they've had the two stars.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've had trout was a star, and unfortunately for that, and that is again, they hate.
[SPEAKER_01]: You re-sign the best player in baseball, you extend him to a long-term deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot ding them at all for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Mike Trot unfortunately runs into injuries.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is crazy that there was only one year where Mike Trot had a Mike Trot year and Shelyotani had a Shelyotani year at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is absolutely, I would say, misfortune,
[SPEAKER_01]: But the other part of this, and this is where we're going to kind of dive into this is the angels just haven't been able to put the pieces around those stars, those two stars really.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, unfortunately, let's just be honest, like they need Zacknetto to be a star, because trout is at the tail in his career, show you Tani's long gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: for a team that has yet to have a winning record in a decade, for a team that has not made a playoff appearance, who has the longest playoff crowd in Major League Baseball now.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't feel like that the corner is near.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is a team that does feel like it's still kind of stuck.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say like to kind of go back to the Arty Moreno part of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: to credit or detriment, this is not a team.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not an owner who's ever had that moment where they say, look, sub 500 record last year, we're gonna take a step back.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to, I would say that there's a little bit of Rockies and Angel similarity here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will, the extreme example, being you and I both knew teams, new scouts who were going out
[SPEAKER_01]: in Otani's free agent year, like, okay, we've got to do our due diligence here.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were angels, the angels were prepping for the possibility of trading showy Otani, which I will say that would have probably been about as big a package as you're ever gonna see for a rental at that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a, I know, you know, and that was a, that would have been one of the bigger blockbuster deals
[SPEAKER_01]: And by all understanding I have, I've been told this by multiple people over the years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Arty Maraine, I've decided, no, we're gonna, you know, get that as an owner-level decision to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: The owner-level decision is, is no, we're not trading, show we Otani, we're gonna make another run at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they actually then traded four players and then ended up placing them on waivers to get them claimed so they could try to get back under the luxury tax threshold.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a team that has never, everything's always about this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never about building for the future, I feel like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a fair criticism?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that is absolutely accurate.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just based on the way that they've maneuvered over the last several years, they've never kind of, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: sort of turned into the skin, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, they've always been fighting it, and that will turn your car around pretty quick, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like the analogy is appropriate for them and your comparison to the Rockies.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's sort of been what the issue is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is they've never kind of taken on the identity of just like self-actualization and just like, we're a bad team, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a problem and now we need to try to work to fix it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can even look at the nationals.
[SPEAKER_03]: prior to them gutting the front office.
[SPEAKER_03]: They did try to rebuild this thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: They did try to trade play.
[SPEAKER_03]: They tried to transform low to, you know, probably it is peak value and got a pretty good package by the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now granted, it wasn't enough with all their bad drafting and lack of development and no one cares how hard you throw ball for mentality.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like all that stuff didn't work.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they've at least now, from the ownership level, made the decision to, okay, we got to do something here.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to trade one set on the next, all right, we're going to do something here.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to got the front office and bring in new people that have been with this successful program.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a little more forward thinking.
[SPEAKER_03]: at least they're doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even to the pirates credit, though the owner won't spend money, they have had good hires, they've had good baseball people.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of them only last a couple years like Horowitz comes and then gets has a couple of pretty monster drafts and then moves on to the nationals.
[SPEAKER_03]: But
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you can at least look at some of these other teams the white socks and say, there's some positive things here, you know, and you can't really necessarily do that with the angels because they just kind of refuse to accept that like Otani's gone, trouts on the back nine, you know, John Lacky and Garrett Anderson aren't walking through that door with flag or arrow jute here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, those days are gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tim Salman, it's also, you know, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: K-Rod, we could just keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: But David, next time.
[SPEAKER_01]: David, next time too, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: David Fletcher has walked out that door too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so that basically, that's where we're gonna start with.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that any, I don't, I maybe we oversold this because I don't think there's a lot of angels fans or even people who aren't angels fans who are paying attention to the series who would come away and say, why are you trying to fix the angels?
[SPEAKER_01]: They feel like they're in a really great spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think we kind of,
[SPEAKER_01]: now we want to dive into the okay so how can they fix it and we'll jump into that right after it's quick break.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Jeff, we want to start with the funny thing about this is it's like, you talk about the nationals.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you talk about the pirates, there are these
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, like, with the pirates, it's been, okay, can the pirates develop hitters, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: With the nationals, it was the nationals literally did not draft and develop a hitter for like a decade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there was a decade long stretch.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, redone and Bryce Harper.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was like, we're to like, Dylan crews and it's like no one in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know about Dylan crews, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know about Brady Hells yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: James Wood doesn't count.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a trade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there was that level of a gap
[SPEAKER_01]: impact directors.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to make a sound like that with the angels, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I would say that we both feel like that they need to dig deeper in the draft.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not this is a team that has drafted horribly.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't ever get any talent.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's generally been their drafts have been really top heavy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have they not?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been something where, yes, they produced a Zacknetta.
[SPEAKER_01]: You get past that first and second and sometimes even a little bit into the third round.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that everyone's hitting on their fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth round picks every year.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the angels do not hit on those guys almost ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there's draft and development does need a step of improvement.
[SPEAKER_01]: How would you view it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the targeting as well as the player development plan, I don't even think it's a matter of style at this point because we don't really know what their style is because they haven't had
[SPEAKER_03]: Really this for one year it was pictures because they had that year they took only I couldn't get to that in a minute, but the talent hasn't necessarily been there for them to develop and for them to have a type of picture.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can even go back and look at some of the rocky straps over the last three or four years and say, all right, they're definitely going for low or release height guys that have flatter, forcing fast balls and guys that have sinkers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, like there's at least like some styles that like boxes that these guys
[SPEAKER_03]: You really can't do that with the angels.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of been very hodgepodge.
[SPEAKER_03]: There hasn't been a whole lot of consistency.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I think you go back to that year where they drafted, you know, 20, they drafted 20 pictures in that draft.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in terms of the guys that they've produced from that draft, 11th rounder, Chase Celseth,
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's just about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sam Bach.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it gets chasel stuff, but I don't also like we should be clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, chasel stuff has a hundred big beginnings in a 4.680 array and a 5.25 fifth that will 93-year-a plus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other, like the top three picks were Sam Bachman, Kai Bush, Landon Marseau.
[SPEAKER_03]: Luke Murphy, Brett Carrey, I mean, these,
[SPEAKER_03]: This is not turning anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: Half of these guys are already retired.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this is 2021.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think when we especially when we look at pictures and we look at drafts, we want to give it a four, five year window to start to at least take some shape, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because there are guys year two, year three, year four that could kind of pop.
[SPEAKER_03]: None of that happens.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what the issue is.
[SPEAKER_03]: As you start to look back on some of these drafts in 2021,
[SPEAKER_03]: They may get a hit it with a player at the top, like a Zack Neto whoever, they're really not hitting in rounds like two to 20 at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: ever.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even the guys they've gotten out of those rounds have been players like Chase Silseth or Kate and Dana who I think had some points in time a couple of years ago where it looked like okay this could go good.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they rushed him up for the big leagues.
[SPEAKER_03]: He really wasn't ready.
[SPEAKER_03]: There were some things that he had to work on, particularly like for least points.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what a thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just very easy to pick up different pitches out of his hand.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like they knew he was tipping.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they sent him to face the best hitters in the
[SPEAKER_03]: probably a bad development plan.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes taking that extra year might frustrate fans with it with a pitcher like Hayden Dana, but if he's up in the big leagues and he looks the way he needs to be successful at 23 or 24, that's still a really good outcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to give it down to the example of that that I've used over the years and Nolan's channel is not a myth, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: one 1.5-war level first basement for them for now multiple years, but to kind of along the exact same size we were talking about with Kate Dana, like no-in-Channual, we'll play this upcoming year as a 24-year-old, the whole season.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll also be his last year before arbitration.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is going to
[SPEAKER_01]: that we're a parent that we wrote about literally like when he came up, it's like he has really low bat speed.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does not have the ability to pull the ball for any kind of power.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does have a great batting eye.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has survival skills, but is that what you want in a first basement?
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, who's also not like goal glove defensively.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where he is now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like
[SPEAKER_01]: The next year that he slugs 400 will be his first year slugging 400 of the majors.
[SPEAKER_01]: He slugged, had a 264 353, 389 season last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to make it sound like what was he doing in the big leagues?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would kind of ask the question, what is he doing in the big leagues?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like why when a player still has things that could be developed, things that could be improved in the minors?
[SPEAKER_01]: What payoff have the angels gotten because they decided to bring him up two and a half seasons ago now, because or two and a quarter seasons ago I should say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because now you're looking at it and saying, he's gonna start moving into getting more expensive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to start.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll say this for Nolan Shandals case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good news for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gonna hit free agency at an age that very few college hitters ever hit free agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he starts to really develop, if we said that his age 26 season is a really impressive season, I would kind of ask the question, okay, great angels, again, we don't know that that'll happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it did, if he really did start to develop, like he has an off-season bat speed training program, he gets stronger, he learns how to hit them all in the air more consistently with power.
[SPEAKER_01]: If all those things happened,
[SPEAKER_01]: I would kind of ask the question, wouldn't it have been great if he'd had another year, year and a half, which would still have put him on a fast track to have developed that in AA and AAA, so that you get that payoff?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if no one's annual has a great age 26 season, it'll be like pre prepping him for free agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have it like right now,
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels, he has not been a reason that they could have gotten over 500.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been more of like, he's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been too many of Zack Netto is the, I would say, the example that is to their credit, like into his credit, they moved him fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say that that has served them well, because he has been a difference maker when healthy for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: To their credit, I'll give them credit that Taylor Ward developed into a very solid player who they just then netted Grayson Rodriguez for that's a risky trade you could say, but I would say if I'm the angels, I do that trade 100 out of 100 times taking the chance on I've got this young pitcher who by the way could be the better that's picture or rotation if everything breaks right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that was actually a nice departure, I think, from a lot of the moves that they've made where they bought the younger, longer controlled player, there was an awkward way to save up, but more years in the contract, all that's worth stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: For a guy that was more or less gonna be a one in done that, I think logically would not have been a good fit for your current build and your trajectory.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was actually a really nice departure.
[SPEAKER_03]: So kudos to the angels on that move, maybe they're turning to corner JJ.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, I would, I would agree with, you know, your, your full assessment there that there are some players that, you know, they've had some success with moving them quickly particularly neto was one.
[SPEAKER_03]: But.
[SPEAKER_03]: While you talked about no one's genuine, what kind of went through my head is this is not that dissimilar from the style of prospect, the Red Sox tend to draft.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now maybe they don't take this guy in the first round, but let's just say perhaps they did.
[SPEAKER_03]: He drops their war falls to them and up spot where they would take them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Had she any more been a Red Sox second round pick that year?
[SPEAKER_03]: How long do you think he would have spent in the minor leagues?
[SPEAKER_03]: And gone through the bat speed program.
[SPEAKER_03]: Granted, they may be never get him to 55 bat speed.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they've taken players like that, who maybe had those prerequisite plate skills, you know, those sort of declarations in the bats of volatility, and bigger bodies, and then gotten them to a point whether it's through changing the path of the swing, or just, you know, simply training fat speed.
[SPEAKER_03]: They've gotten to a point with guys like that where they've been able to turn them into something productive.
[SPEAKER_03]: at least from a well-rounded hitting perspective, maybe a 15 to 18 home run guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: If no one channel was a 15 to 18 home run guy and hit the ball that hard, he would probably be a 290 hitter.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, he's probably running 400 on base percentages and it's slugging enough that you're saying, okay, this guy may not be a 30 home run first basement, but he's one of the better hitting first basement in the game and he's somebody that, you know, on a winning team, you love to have a guy like that hit six to your lineup.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's not that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could still become that, the right focus, but you're not getting that internally.
[SPEAKER_01]: To go back to that, I remember when he came up, I remember doing a story, I remember watching every ball that Nolan Chaniel had hit in the air, outside of the complex at that point, because every one of those games is on, we pull up synergy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there were very few balls that he had hit, when he made his major league baseball debut, you would say you could count on one hand, the balls were an outfield or didn't step in on the ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he hadn't hit the ball,
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't they hadn't hit a homer at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: He hadn't really hit a ball to the warning track at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a player having still a significant, a potentially fixable flaw.
[SPEAKER_01]: But one that, like you said, has affected him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He still gets on base.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it does kind of cut into his batting average, because teams still do not feel he has strong more power, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, he does now hit the ball at least occasionally over 300 feet.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's something where you can shift you can, you know, in the outfield, you can position players.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are hits that don't get, you don't get because they're not having respect you as much.
[SPEAKER_01]: the same way that when, you know, I'll put it this way that when a power hit or hit so they drop in in in front of the outbuilder because the outbuilder would be a little deeper.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, kind in with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other part of this is, it's not again.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not that the angels, this is not the orials of a few years ago where the orials had that stretch for this like.
[SPEAKER_01]: international.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't sign players on the international market.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for everyone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, again, the angels, this is one thing like this is much more multifaceted because the angels have tried signing players internationally.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels, the angels have signed the best player on the international non-foreign professional market of the last decade, because showy Otani
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the best.
[SPEAKER_01]: Him and Juan Soto are the best of the last decade.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, the nationals have the other one too.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is multifaceted, as we say.
[SPEAKER_01]: But after him, if you said, who are the impact international home-grown international players, that's you could come up with since Otoni.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's going back always now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is Jose Soriano.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: as both of us would love to note because we're in rule five fever right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did lose Soriano and then got him back.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a rule five pick because they left them unprotected, but thankfully for them, they got him back.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been a solid contributor for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is a team that we've right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say like if you're looking at their top 10 prospects,
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the Nelson Rottas and the Gabrielle DeValias and all that we're kind of just while Lugos and all that we're giving hope to.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the track record has not been great over the last decade and that's been another part of this problem, has it not?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's been a huge part of the problem, and it's one of the reasons that when you watch there affiliates, it's just not a lot of depth throughout the organization, even with, you know, operation rocket city over the last couple of years, that team is only okay, you know, and as somebody that watches a lot of minor league baseball watches a lot of Northwest league, covered the Rockies for a number of years here and have been covering the Blue Jays and, you know, van Covers and easy one for me to watch.
[SPEAKER_03]: I see a try city match up and it's like, hmm, I wonder who Hills borrow has tonight.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wonder who Spokane has tonight like a wonder if those are better games, because more of the not I'm not seeing anything on the other side, you know, so let's be clear.
[SPEAKER_03]: I literally be focused on Vancouver and it's like, well, I'm going to watch them against actual good teams in a week, you know, let's be clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they did change it a little bit this year, but there was a stretch there in Johnson was there.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a stretch that have a couple of years.
[SPEAKER_01]: where the angels said, okay, I know that we're mandated to have four full-season clubs.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're gonna treat our low-A club as kind of that's where we break guys in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Rocket City, we're gonna put everyone at Rocket City.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we're gonna jump them to the majors from Rocket City.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you said, like, more foesally, no, we don't really go there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Triple APC, I'll sound like, no, we don't really go there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was something where it was almost like,
[SPEAKER_01]: farm system, full season farm system, where the best way you could put it is is, if you were on the high-ayer of the triplet team, it probably was a sign that you were kind of being put out the pasture in some ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's that kind of ties in, which I would say this is probably the most important thing to me that they have to do, which ties into digging deep from the draft.
[SPEAKER_01]: It ties into stepping it up internationally.
[SPEAKER_01]: A stat I will share with you Jeff and with you all the listeners and viewers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the biggest problem for the angels, okay, the biggest problem is is if you keep spending massive contracts on players who then produce at sub replacement level, okay, that is something that's really hard to overcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's start there.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Anthony Rendo
[SPEAKER_01]: Every year, I would say with the angels for the last many years.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go into the season, especially there was a stretch there, like when they had Otani still.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where it's like, if every single player on this team stays healthy and produces like they can, maybe they've got something here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they would have a little stretch, and then injuries would start to arise, players would go on the I.L.
[SPEAKER_01]: The best teams, again, the Dodgers have resources, that obviously, but the Dodgers are a team, for example, on the other extreme, where the Dodgers, like, someone goes down and it's like, oh, yeah, this guy who's been sitting at Triple A for us, but is really good, he's gonna come up now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, oh, that pitchers hurt, oh, well, goodness is glass knows coming off the aisle right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had waves of players.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels are the opposite.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels are the team that year after year,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I didn't realize that guy got another shot in the majors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I didn't realize that that guy ever got the shot in the majors.
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's the stat for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: 2025, the angels had, you know, we've talked about war, zero is replacement level, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The logic being in estimate that if you don't, if you have a player who's producing below zero war,
[SPEAKER_01]: You should be able to go out and find someone equivalent for a almost no-cost acquisition, a waiver claim type, or things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't always work out that way, but that's the general idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have a player who's a negative 0.2 or 0.3-war player, okay, that's still that's where placement level.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels had six hitters and six pictures last year who were negative 0.5 or a worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those 12 players produced negative 7.6 B-war, they baseball reference war.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's essentially that you're digging a hole with those 12 players.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not every sub-zero player.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's 0.5 or worse player.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're digging a showy-o-tiny sized hole to dig out from under.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you say, okay, maybe that was one year.
[SPEAKER_01]: 2024, five hitters, five pitchers and negative 7.7 war.
[SPEAKER_01]: From negative 0.5 war or worse players, 2023, six hitters, six pitchers, negative nine war from those 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: 2022, eight hitters and six pitchers, negative 9.8 war from those 14 players.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what you're saying here is is year after year after year,
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels are playing players who are utterly overmatched as hitters or pitchers and are getting a tough playing time because here's the thing right that's a cumulative step if you come up
[SPEAKER_01]: and you are utterly overmatched and you're a hitter and you go over eight and then they go, why is this guy here?
[SPEAKER_01]: You sit him back down.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a negative point two or player.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to place some to get to negative point five to get to negative one to get to negative one point five as some of these guys do.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is you are playing someone who is really producing at a
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the part here that I would say if they ever take the we're going to stop trying to focus on stars and now and we're going to look a little bit longer term we're going to look a little bit bigger picture if the angels could go from and we've had the angels in the you're the tail end of our font system rankings for most of the last seven eight nine ten years.
[SPEAKER_01]: if they could get to that level of depth, like Jeff, you and I know when we do a top 30, there are some top 30s you do and you get to like 20 or like, I don't have anyone left.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there are other top 30s where you're like, these players aren't great, but man, there are a lot of these guys who could be big leakers.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels are never in category B. I would say as a way to put it.
[SPEAKER_01]: How important is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or how could they fix this going forward?
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, I'm still trying to collect my thoughts after you use the phrase gaping chess wound level of production, which could be an autobiography of some of those players.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the way that you ultimately can fix this is by figuring out what's wrong with
[SPEAKER_03]: your identification process.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about the domestic draft.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about the international market.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think some of that has taken place in free agency as well, though.
[SPEAKER_03]: That might be a little bit easier to answer in terms of what the problem has been there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think, you know, if they were able to have a few really good drafts where they consistently targeted players that can get better in the first five rounds, took some shots in rounds six to 11 on interesting college pitchers and hitters and then tried to do what the brewers did and I think blue jays and some other teams have had success doing over the last five or six years is target some of those under scouted.
[SPEAKER_03]: under committed high school players that you can sign for $250,000 for $1,000.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the way that Marano has spent money, he might be willing to like go over the overage in some of those, in some of those case, not to lose picks, but just spending a little bit more money in the draft, allocating those resources a little bit better, having a more cohesive plan where you target some upside as well as some players that have higher major league floors,
[SPEAKER_03]: I think targeting better athletes too, which they do sometimes in the first round, but it's just a lot of inconsistency and a lot of like kind of easy to spot, okay, this guy's going to be, you know, a role player at best, but more often than not, he's probably going to be an or guy, they got to stop doing that sort of drafting and I think that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to say they haven't been in the modern times in terms of player development, but I think they have to have a very top-down mentality in terms of whoever's setting the tone, what the philosophy is, the things that they're going to focus on, things they're going to try to be good at, and then build that mechanism around it, get the right coaches in place that can then follow directions and put through instruction that is in line
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, improve the communication.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I don't know if they can do all those things with the ownership that they have.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think they can at least try to put all of that in place and try to improve the infrastructure.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's what the problem is here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because they've had ideas, they've gone in certain directions, they've had talent to people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think this is a rocky's problem where they need to actually, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: get up and move two decades into the future because they're living in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that's really the angel's problem, as much as it just seems like they're constantly doing this, they're doing a little of that, they're going over here, they're trying this in the draft, and they're never just kind of following a tried and true method.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say again, if you said,
[SPEAKER_01]: We've seen multiple managers, like for a long time, Microsoft was the driving, I would say one of the things here is, Microsoft was a driving force in the organization for a long time, kind of like when you say like setting a stage for everything and then,
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of went off the rails eventually.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, he departed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And since then, there's been Joe Madden.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been different voices at the major league level.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've had multiple managers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't really had a manager with a lot of staying time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they've had some good coaches come through here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, retaining them has been, I think that when you look even at the front office side, I would say, I feel like that a lot of this does
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, excuse me, is it ownership more than anything else here that we're talking about that's kind of driving this because the other things that we have to acknowledge you're like that have been reported on are.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did just finish an upgrade program as far as they're spring training facilities, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say that you could say that before that they were a little bit behind the times, you know, they were not at the cutting edge of facilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we've had things, you know, we've had players come out and say that the facilities are not kept up to the level of major league expectation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those things where there's been, again, it all seems to tie together that there's a approach that when it comes to the big move, the big swing, bringing in the big free agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's always been a willingness for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, that is spending.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to, hey, if we spend another five million a year here in this area of sports science and this area or whatever, the consistency of approach on things like that has often been a little bit harder to sustain with the angels.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we know that the angels are coming off of a 72 win season at the major level.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that they, they earned that 72 wins.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not a team where you say, oh, that team was just, you know, a 90 win team that was just a couple of bad breaks away.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you look at this team, when you look at the farm system now, is there hope here for the angels fans in 2026?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is this the time to say, hey, we haven't done it for quite a while?
[SPEAKER_01]: but this is a time to start taking some long-term thinking and looking a little bit longer term, which maybe the Grayson Rodriguez trade could be the first Harvard drew that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I certainly think that the Grayson Rodriguez trade was a move in the right direction.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I still think you look at this Angel's Farm System and you look at the current 25 mayor roster.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you can say, all right, like, the lineup isn't awful at the top.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then you kind of look and you're like, Bryce, Tio Docio is gonna be the centerfielder, really?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know?
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a borderline big leaguer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let alone a guy that should be penciled in as your starting center fielder.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think you look at the rest of the rotation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are teams where he would not be your backup in the computer.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there are teams where he would be in AAA.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: You then look at the rotation, Kakuchi is fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorionos, we talked about his fine, Grayson Rodriguez.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then you have redepmers who really is regressed over the last several years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Kaden Dana, we talked about those issues before.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have names in the bullpen with guys like Robert Stevenson and
[SPEAKER_03]: Brock Burke that sort of even forgot and and and Stevenson's case like it depends if he's healthier not right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not like they're they have this loaded bullpen or a rotation that's pretty good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's kind of like, yeah, the top seven in the lineup could be worse, Adele had a bounce back year, so rare if healthy can hit you 30 bombs, Christian Moore, I'm not going to read it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You right off.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they're also not an object here, let me interject when we talk about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other problem you have here is is Adele is a good hitter.
[SPEAKER_01]: who still has some issues defensively, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want him too stressed defensively.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at times they had him really being overstressed defensively.
[SPEAKER_01]: Christian Moore, we don't know how well he's going to hit.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do feel I would say it's comfortable that every evaluation we have is that he is going to be fringy defensively if you try to play it in second base, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They, they, they sell air should never play in the outfield at this point in his career.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, right, at this point, he is a DH and DH only, but the problem is, is my trount needs to DH a lot because if he plays in the outfield, he often gets heard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's only a problem if they're both healthy at the same time, which that might have been like 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so my point on all of this, though, is is other than net out, there's just really
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, the other thing that I was about to get to, too, is change it.
[SPEAKER_03]: How many left-handed bats do they have in this lineup?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that is crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they're the anti-tiger's this way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no one's channel.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody else is a righty.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, like, all four of their bench bats that are listed that are all on the 20 on the 40 man roster at this point in Travis D. R. No, Oswald Paraz, a Kyron Paris and Matthew Lugo are all right handed as well, JJ.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is really crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like again, I say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I say the other stage.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Tigers, if you hit right handed,
[SPEAKER_01]: You better do something like the Tigers like you can't play in field for us almost like they just draft short they draft left-handed or switch hitting short stops over and over.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fran, you're a romantic is pretty much like the only right-handed hitting short stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, have your bias gets grandfathered in, but he's really a center field or slash short stop now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But everyone else they have is a left-handed hitter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maganagol, trade cruis to switch hitter.
[SPEAKER_01]: The cold keys to Jake, you know all these guys they're all left handed hitters.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're all here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Riley Green, you know, the, sometimes with the tigers, I'm like, probably use another like one more right hand at that maybe or so, you know, like I've kind of like laid it out when doing the tigers like they have like a couple of right like it might be like, you know, a way that you can get like, you know, one of these backup infielders and triple eye off is like, hey, there are right handed against lefty bat here, you know, to be had kind of thing, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like so then we go to the farm system right now and Tyler Bremner, the who they took first round last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, the angels, it's not like that they don't take guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: They get to pick at the top of the draft a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they take guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Bremner is a guy who could be a very interesting picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: As you said, the problem with some of these are redepers was a very interesting picture in the
[SPEAKER_01]: Bremner's pretty much I would say Ryan Johnson.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not see as currently being a top 100 prospect.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we talk about rushing a guy, they sent him to the majors to get shelters a reliever, having no minor league experience, then sent him back to the miners like, okay, we'll let you start now.
[SPEAKER_01]: To his credit, he then went to high A.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I'm pretty good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, there's something here.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I would say is, you know, then we talked about Nelson Robbett, then we talked about a Josswaluga.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about Gabriel D'Avelie.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was an interesting bat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also is one of the largest young catchers you will ever see, like there are real questions about his ability to stick behind the plate.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not a whole lot of slam dunks here in this firm system.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a fair way to put it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's really accurate.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just even looking at,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the end of season top 30 and yeah, I mean, I, I, I like George Classin.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Ryan Johnson's probably a big leader.
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't tell you if those guys ever exceed the status of, you know, number five starter, or even potentially like one inning reliever.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's some more interesting names like, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: Really bad body.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a real interesting bat.
[SPEAKER_03]: The data's really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: The scouting reports aren't great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of the other things we've heard have been great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Trade Gregory Alfred throws really hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's really, really athletic.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the shape at this point on the foreseen isn't great.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you got to sort of figure out where that goes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Jill and Jordan was maybe a nice little sleeper for them, who's got pretty good stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, I do feel like the angel systems looked a little worse in recent years, but it's still a pretty bad system.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have the Astros, which is a very shallow system.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but they have a lot more guys where I can look down that list and say, Oh, there's probably a handful or two of big leaders here and maybe a couple of guys that, you know, get that Astros.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I guess they have the devil magic now and not the cardinals where it seems like they're always churning like a three war picture every year and it could be somebody like Ronald Blanco or, um, you know, pick your poison.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, they're, they're always sort of full of surprises.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the angels do not short out a three-war picture is just like, they don't find those under the couch cushions.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not really happening with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I hate to say we're not trying to be that pessimistic because there are some things here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is, that's what's kind of maddening about this in some ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it is kind of like that we have expectations here because this is a team.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, this is not even trying to bury Arty Moreno completely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Arty Moreno is willing to spend money.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just hasn't, it's been on in ways that like, if you said, hey, instead of signing the 31, 32-year-old to sign them up through his age 37, 38 seasons, maybe instead spread that around.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I would say more than anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just year after year, it's like don't have three
[SPEAKER_01]: for of the like 20 lease productive players in the major leagues every year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because again, the key point I'll make on this is usually there's the way you get to the absolute lease productive players are, you have the Chris Davises of the world, which some years, the angels have their versions of that, where it's like this guy's on such a contract that we can't not play him to hope to see if he can turn it around.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're playing this player who's obviously overmatched, and we don't have a better option, whereas other teams, I mean, you saw this with, the brave's ran out of, the brave were terrible in the last year, they ran out of pitching, but they just kept turning guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so you don't have as many of these like negative one point something more, because when a guy's terrible, they just moved on to the next one.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels have been a little bit more of like, we don't have anyone else to move on to, kind of decisions, it seems like.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but it is still an uphill climb, especially again in a division where, you know, I mean, the A's took a step back, they really did, to their credit because of that for, for all of their problems with ownership with not having a home, you know, all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've built something here that's kind of intriguing because they have now a Nick Kurtz.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a Jacob Wilson.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have some young pictures.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have the foundation here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they went out by the way and traded for a better prospect than anything that the angels have gotten back in a trade in years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, nothing against that trade.
[SPEAKER_01]: But
[SPEAKER_01]: Leo DeVries, however prospect would have been the starting point if you were to try to show you a Tommy at the deadline.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what did they get instead?
[SPEAKER_01]: They got a losing record again and watching him depart in pre-agency.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you got to take a step back to take a step forward and this is a team that's been kind of stuck because they try to take a step forward but they're not there to take a step forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's our fix it for the angels.
[SPEAKER_01]: In of this one we will probably
[SPEAKER_01]: We might do too.
[SPEAKER_01]: We might push it back because next week, Jeff at my, one of our favorite days of the year is next Wednesday as we're recording us on Tuesday, but, you know, next Wednesday afternoon to a clock is the rule five draft.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of hard to imagine us not podcasting about that in some way, shape or form.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be in Orlando.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff will be at home, but we will probably convene at some point I would think to talk about that after the dust clears.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we'll push it back a little bit next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll be here having my annual rule five draft party with all my neighbors, you know, I mean, it's the place to be the Super Bowl and that, you know, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no, that and the Super Bowl, you know, well, the paths might be in the Super Bowl this year, JJ.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for Jeff, I'm JJ.
[SPEAKER_01]: So long, everybody.