[SPEAKER_02]: there and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone, welcome back to another box with hooks.
[SPEAKER_02]: We really excited to have the author joining us on today's episode, Reann and Harvey, welcome to the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: For our supporters who are watching on YouTube, please show us your lucky t-shirt, your great glad shot t-shirt.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm wearing my favorite shark t-shirt for good luck.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am a marine biology nerd and my stories tend to feature the ocean, so I have a pretty one-shark mind, honestly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've often said on the podcast that we should have calling T-C wearing shark hat.
[SPEAKER_02]: sometimes so that they can fight each other for submissions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that fits in perfectly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the perfect way for me to show everybody who's watching on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of you will know that I'm absolutely obsessed with the raccoons.
[SPEAKER_02]: To the point that my last book had a main character who was a raccoon, I follow more raccoons on Instagram than I follow people, and look at this t-shirt that I found.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is really cute, but that's not all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at this mug that I found.
[SPEAKER_02]: The mug is a city of Toronto bin and there's a raccoon in it and look at these little butt.
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is so cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is such a cute raccoon, but I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love Toronto thing where you're like, why would the raccoon feed you the raccoon?
[SPEAKER_00]: So in Toronto for those of you that don't know, this is like many cities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Animals have adapted to learn how to open the compost, food waste bin, and then get in them to the trash, basically, the food waste.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sure that's done that in other cities, but it's like a Toronto thing where they changed the receptacles
[SPEAKER_00]: raccoons learn how to open them so yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And and actually recently ready to study their Ted raccoons are revolving to become more cute to appeal to humans and that their interactions with humans are becoming more to the point that they might actually become the next domesticated animal.
[SPEAKER_02]: I for one cannot wait to get my pet raccoon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I heard about that on wait, wait don't tell me which is the best show ever on NPR.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, there we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I read it somewhere and I was just like sign me up, people sign me up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, right, so I think this is the first time we've had any kind of small talk before we've dive in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the first time in five years, people make a note.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Rhiannon, we can ask you to dive in by reading us your query later.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will skip the paragraph at the start where I'm singing your praises.
[SPEAKER_03]: And without that, the square letter is going to clock in at 300 and 72 words.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, dear Bianca Carwin and CC, Mars call is a work of speculative YA fiction complete at 85,000 words.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lending the missing person mystery and psychological uncertainty of Crystal Sutherland's House of Paolo, with the isolated setting and atmospheric suspense of Nicole Wilson's Time Pool, this story takes readers to an island where the sea whispered secrets and nothing stays buried for long.
[SPEAKER_03]: Please note that this manuscript contains mention of suicide and mental health disorders.
[SPEAKER_03]: Following her mother's psychotic break, 15-year-old Peregrine is sent to live with her aunt, uncle, and cousins on a remote New England fishing island.
[SPEAKER_03]: The village, once thriving, has fallen into disrepair.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fishermen are no longer able to feed their families and some even whisper that they're cursed.
[SPEAKER_03]: And nobody sings willing to talk to Pere about Mara.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her mother's mysterious twin sister who vanished as a child.
[SPEAKER_03]: Perry's search for clues takes her all over the island from the towering cliffs in the west to the shipwreck-studded coves in the east.
[SPEAKER_03]: Though her newfound peers believe Mar committed suicide, Perry can't shake the feeling that Mar's fate, her mother's troubles and the island's plight are linked.
[SPEAKER_03]: Equally disquieting is the fact that Perry has started to see in here strange things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Voices on the wind and aren't earthly spirits in the ocean waves.
[SPEAKER_03]: As her fears about her own sanity grow, so too does her conviction that Mara's disappearance isn't what it seemed, and that someone on the island doesn't want her digging too deeply.
[SPEAKER_03]: Perry must unravel the secrets at the island's heart and learn the truth about what happened to Mara before she disappears too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I grew up on board a 43-foot sailboat as my family completed a West-to-East partial circumnavigation of North America via the Panama Canal.
[SPEAKER_03]: As an undergraduate at Duke University, I majored in marine biology with a minor in creative writing, and I currently work as first mate and dive instructor on a private yacht.
[SPEAKER_03]: My goal is to use my background in marine science and the maritime industry to inspire love and concern for the ocean in young adults.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mars call was my debut novel and was recently longlisted for the blue pen agency is 2025 for his novel award.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's early rain and hurry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: We really should get our guests on all the time to read the query.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say they do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Better job then we do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Kali, I'm actually
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sounds great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always love when we have authors on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always my favorite time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, it's just so nice to bounce ideas around it.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, see, and I always have so many questions of me on Katu for the imaginary author that's never there and only sending in the material.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love when we get authors on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also love when we get to tell authors what a good job they did in person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you did an incredible job.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, why isn't one of my primary categories that I work in?
[SPEAKER_00]: I certainly worked on my A before, but you know, I'm totally enamored with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also interviewed a YA author for our show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm like, maybe I'm dipping my toe into the YA universe again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, so as I said, I think you did a really great job.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the title.
[SPEAKER_00]: For some kind of like, I kind of like stumble over a little bit like Mara's call, you know, like the sound of it maybe isn't working for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, Mara isn't the main character, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Paris, the main character.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so obviously, we understand that Mara is kind of probably presumably calling to her from the water or the spirits and that sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'd love to hear if you have some backup ideas.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can obviously chat through them at the end because I think you probably have some better ones up your sleeve, especially I'm sure you have many like water, not a cool ocean puns and, you know, sayings and things like that that you could work through.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would love to love to chat through that with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You also don't really have like hook presumably in this opening paragraph.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of vibes, you know, it's like isolated setting, atmospheric suspense, the mystery.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that is good, but I think the piece of see whispers, secrets, and nothing stays buried for long.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually find that a bit of a mixed metaphor, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's like, see, nothing would like to be buried in the sea, things would sink in the sea or stay on her water in the sea.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a bit of a mixed metaphor.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would probably just put an actual hook in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I could run through, you know, so my idea is for you, because I think there's some that are a little bit more gripping.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, for example, a 15-year-old girl must have covered the truth about her aunts disappearance on a remote island, despite fearing the strange voices.
[SPEAKER_00]: She hears her a sign of her own crumbling sanity.
[SPEAKER_00]: something where it's like what's the hook of the book as opposed to, you know, some vibes, some sinking, you know, that type of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I put an actual hook in there and in the critique pages, I have a couple other hook ideas for you if you want to play around with putting like an actual, you know, a couple of line hook in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: What did I have next for you?
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the body, paragraph,
[SPEAKER_00]: You have, I mean, so you use the terminology committed suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think these days people prefer dye by suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a small, verbiage thing, but just as I know, and that's some feedback that we've got on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's just a small tweak that I'd probably recommend.
[SPEAKER_00]: And other than that, like I think it's, I think it's really strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, I have any major notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say in the author bio paragraph, you have the line about my goal is to use my background in marine science in the maritime industry to inspire love and concern for the ocean in young adults.
[SPEAKER_00]: I probably wouldn't use that as a teaching moment personally because it's a commercial novel and it's not like a nonfiction guide to the ocean.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you need that there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would tie the connection of, you know, my life has been on
[SPEAKER_00]: book like I would like instead of making it like a teaching moment, I would just find a way to it and I'm just making this up.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when I was little I saw this island and I didn't know what it was and then I've always had this dream about that, yeah, just something where it's like, linking the nautical lifestyle to the book, but I wouldn't do the teaching line.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's kind of all my notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you did a really great job.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's super interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, good job.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can tell you listen to the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good job, reanna.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful, Carly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, CC handing it across to you now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to echo Carly's compliments because truly, like, we get a lot of query letters on the show and this is an educational platform so we're very happy to get query letters that are still very much a draft in that, you know, our jobs are essentially to offer feedback, but this was so fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, definitely the top 1% of query letters we've received so polished really, really strong because
[SPEAKER_01]: I have, we have our brains or critical thinking brains, and because you are here asking for feedback, I am going to give you suggestions.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I want you to take each and every suggestion with the caveat that it's fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I represented YA, I would be like, oh my gosh, let me scroll down and read these pages right now because I am so excited to read more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would be really sad that they were only five.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the goal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, the goal is to make the agent curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so plot paragraphs, my obsession.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do a really good job with the first paragraph of establishing the inciting incident and the mood of the setting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was curious about her specific place in the world, but it wasn't a curiosity that bothered me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was more like, huh, I really hope I find out more soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it wasn't like this is missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we get to the second plot paragraph that one that begins with Paris, some search for clues, and our sub-stacks supporters can perhaps listen to this and follow along with the pages that you guys get.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a line that reads, Perry can't shake the feeling that Mars faked her mother's troubles and the island's plight are linked.
[SPEAKER_01]: This suggests to me that the protagonist goes on a journey, an investigative journey, because of intuition.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I worry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I worry because if the protagonist's motivation to investigate,
[SPEAKER_01]: a mystery comes purely from intuition.
[SPEAKER_01]: The reader will not experience that same intuition.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it can come across as plot convenient.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not saying that that's what's in your pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying that that's how you're framing it in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as a page and I go, ooh, I wonder if I wonder if the motivation is properly developed in the pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that line is doing your story a disservice.
[SPEAKER_01]: especially since right afterwards you have a line that says that she's starting to see and hear strange things voices and I read that line and I was like well this is a really great line because this is something that's happening to her and that could explain why she's investigating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe for example there's rumors that her and Tamara also heard voices and she's like wait hold on
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm also hearing voices, then I'm gonna investigate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that to me is a much more interesting, believable and not at all plot convenient motivation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that's a way stronger line to lead with.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would lead with that line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you want to keep the intuition fine, I don't think you should, but don't put it first.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also really great line that read, and that someone on the island doesn't want her digging too deeply.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like people of the island to not want her to dig because that means that there's an antagonistic force.
[SPEAKER_01]: But why do she think that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is she getting threatening notes?
[SPEAKER_01]: Telling her to back off.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, did something else happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what plot point triggered this suspicion slash theory?
[SPEAKER_01]: I need the plot point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or else, because of that intuition line, I worry that, oh God, it's all in her head.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, part of the story, correct me from wrong, part of the story is for sure the reader wondering how much of this is her perhaps losing her mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much of this is real and that's good like that can make for a great novel, but it can't be all the plot points, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I can't be all the plot points.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I I think this is really strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually will disagree with Carly we have received unanimous feedback that people love it when Carly and I disagree so
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm making people happy because I kind of like the line about inspiring.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was really cute and I like it personally made me think of all the author interviews you'll give one day.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I like that line.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would keep it whether you keep it or not to be very fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not going to make her break.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ready fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, it made me curious which is the goal.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing I wanted to add, I had a really small note in my pages, and then I forgot to address it and CC reminded me, which is about kind of what CC was getting at with the intuition, and if it, I think what CC's getting at and what she's pointing to is like, we start to get worried if it's too quiet, right, because it was all in her head and all in her mind and then we're like, what, it seems like there's a lot going on in the world that I need to note about who are the other active participants in this book.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, just really talk about any friends or any characters or age.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, as I mentioned of cousins, there's a mention of other people on the island.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, like, it doesn't really seem like there is a clear antagonist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless it is the person on the island who doesn't want her to dig, who you don't name.
[SPEAKER_00]: But obviously, I mean, we're not to the pages yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: We understand there's people her age once we get to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: pages, but I just wonder, are we just going to have a character wandering in on island for 300 pages, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was my fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that, again, based on what I've read on the pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that would happen, but I don't know if you want to lead to the in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a work clear antagonist that isn't nature that is human.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then potentially like who she interacts with more regularly.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've already named a lot of characters.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I'm tiptoeing into this conversation because I'm a dename the family.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, so they're the cousins.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would I would just think about if there's a way to make it seem like what she's coming up against our real things and not just in her mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Khalia.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Rianan, we're going to pass it across to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask if you can kick us off first with the title's conversation we had and then you welcome to answer the race or ask any questions that you have.
[SPEAKER_03]: absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would actually be very interested to hear your title suggestions.
[SPEAKER_03]: This title was kind of the working title from the beginning and I just never really quite circle around back to it with something that I liked better.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would really be open to any and all interesting suggestions at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I play around with
[SPEAKER_00]: the water themes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So your comps are House of Hollow and Tidepool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And those are much more like atmospheric titles.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think you need a more atmospheric title.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's hard to give you like notes if I haven't read the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Often what I suggest is just find like a turn of phrase that you really like in the book, playing around with that character names, play with shorter titles, play with some longer titles.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know, I think you just got to give yourself the opportunity to be a bit more playful with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I totally understand you're like, this is the placeholder.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what it's been for the past few years.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the title.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would think about something more atmospheric, play with something longer, shorter, turns of phrases that you really like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I often find a title can come from the last page of the book, because sometimes you're bringing your thoughts around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not always in a conclusion way, but there's a turn of phrase on that last paragraph sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, see, do you have some ideas?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to say that this happens a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I'm reading a manuscript and there's a really great line or few words, and I highlighted, and I go, this is your title.
[SPEAKER_01]: that's what happened with tell them you lied by lower leftler like we went back and forth in a million titles it was at one point called the larke then it was called all americans then it was called like a million other things and we were like we don't love the title and then I was not even focusing on title I was just reading the manuscript for like the fifth time I don't even know
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a line where the protagonist said, tell them you lie, and I'm like, oh my god, this is the title.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that can also be good in terms of inspiration.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't stress in terms of like, I have to find the title before I do the edits, work on the pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do all the organic work.
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as you think about titles for a little while, it's gonna be in the back of your mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then your unconscious will help you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also for our listeners, we always appreciate your feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we advertise this on Instagram, feel free to pop your comments in there to help re-en.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, passing it back to you again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, perfect.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so that was all we could see back about how to tighten up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of the details in the plot paragraph.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was I was actually quite nervous to submit this query letter given the number of times I've heard you guys say.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, this query letter is to Viby.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's not enough plot points.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's vides But no, you know, nothing definitive and I did kind of have the feeling that my plot paragraphs were more on the Viby end of this spectrum My name
[SPEAKER_03]: struggle has is just that time-honored struggle of just feeling like you have too much to fit into these two little paragraphs, you know, so the the kind of the heart of the story is this young teenage girl, she's she's an adolescent, she's sort of on that husk between girlhood and womanhood,
[SPEAKER_03]: And not only is she kind of going through what would be sort of a normal coming of age process, you know, she's in a new place.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is surrounded by new peers.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a potential love interest, which was the the boy who, you know, briefly appears in the pages.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you've got all of that going on, but then on top of that, the story is exploring a little bit the boundary between what would kind of be sort of the child-like imagination, magic, fantasies, versus on other end of the spectrum, if you will, looking at it from an adult perspective,
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, this is psychosis, this is in your mind, this is a disorder and kind of exploring the intersection of that a little bit and that's where you kind of get to that level of uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are these things real?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it in in her mind?
[SPEAKER_03]: But then as well, you have the actual antagonistic forces on the island to again, I didn't feel like I quite had the economy of space to throw out too many details, but yeah, so just trying to fit all of that in while also having plot points, but also.
[SPEAKER_03]: establishing vines.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have a question about it's historical nature.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the questions was contemporary and one of them was historical.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're calling this like speculative.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's something like a magic world to it, obviously.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the time period that you imagine or do you leave a completely ambiguous throughout the book?
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is set in the 90s.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the rationale behind the time setting of this is it's also exploring a little bit of the problem of ocean and marine over exploitation.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the Mara disappeared about 20 years ago, which was in the early 1970s, and that's the point in time when overfishing really became on the popular and national consciousness for the first time.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's when you first started having seriously depleted fishing stocks.
[SPEAKER_03]: and kind of this concern over, oh, hey, the ocean actually has a bottom.
[SPEAKER_03]: The oceans resources are not limited.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's sort of, you know, trying to be a little clever with the timing of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then 20 years later is where the story actually takes place from there.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is in the 90s.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah, I don't think you need to like point it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, CCD, did you have a note there?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you need to like specify the timeline.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just bit curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I liked that it's ambiguous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to address, because you said that you were nervous about, you know, maybe having too many vibes and that the challenge was like, how do you pack vibes and plot?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you do both.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you focus on plot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The vibes are going to come naturally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think it's about substituting Vibe sentences for plot sentences for the most part.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes a Vibe sentence can stay, but it, we're talking like, sprinkles of salt.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking ingredient.
[SPEAKER_01]: Plot is just what query letters they to focus on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, because agents are the first line of defense, we get so many submissions that don't have plot that when we read a query letter that's all vibes, our brain goes to oh gosh, there's no plot in this book or there might be no plot in this book because oftentimes there is no plot in the book, but sometimes there is plot, but then the writer just struggles to really untangle the plot points from the world because it is an ecosystem, which
[SPEAKER_01]: An example is instead of saying someone on the island doesn't want her digging too deeply, say she's been getting threatening notes saying that she used to stop digging too deeply and you're going to make it better than what I just did now, but
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it don't, don't zoom out so much, you know, zoom in.
[SPEAKER_01]: The zoom in on the, on the plot with causality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is the job.
[SPEAKER_01]: What you can do is write another query letter from scratch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like start over and I'm not saying that that will be the final thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll do just as an exercise start over and make it plot only.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not allowed to write vives.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you'll have all the plot in one page, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you'll have two documents and then you'll be able to like edit a little bit better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also want to reiterate, like, I think this queer letter is doing its job, which is to hook agents.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't want you to get, I know I always respect CC's illustrative advice, because I think CC gives great advice, but I think this is a pretty solid, so don't stress yourself out too much about, you know, tinkering with sentences at the sake for the sake of being like, I need to hold this back two months or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you feel like when you feel like it's ready, you've done the tinkering, you've done CC's exercise, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: be confident because, yeah, I don't want you to think that we are, we're, yeah, I don't have to try to make you jump through whoops, just to jump through whoops, so I just want to let you know that you did.
[SPEAKER_02]: We wanted to get to the pages before we run out of time, was there anything else that you wanted to focus on with the query, random before we move on?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think that was perfect.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was all very helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So before we go to the pages, just a quick work from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, Rianne, can you please give us an overview of what's in those opening pages?
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we open with a young teenage girl, Perry, who is on board a fishing vessel, found for the island where her mother grew up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she kind of overhears fishermen on the vessel, making comments under their breath about her mother, and how Perry grew up wrong on the mainland.
[SPEAKER_03]: The captain of the boat suggests that she'd go outside is they approach the island out on deck, which kind of takes her back as the boat is rolling around in the swell.
[SPEAKER_03]: He tells it a hold on tight to the railing and makes a comment that her family doesn't need to lose another girl, which kind of takes her back, but she goes out on deck.
[SPEAKER_03]: She gets a first look at the island, which seems dark and fog-sweaved and very gloomy, a little intimidating.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when they pull up to the docks, there's a boy about her age there who helps tie up boat.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's intrigued by him, but he also makes her a little bit nervous.
[SPEAKER_03]: After they tie up, the captain of the boat delivers Perry to her aunt, who's waiting on the key side.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her aunt drives her to the family home for dinner.
[SPEAKER_03]: and as they go, Perry is reflecting that she can't believe she's here on the island.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her mother always her bait her to go there and has always said it's dangerous because Perry's mother's twin sister, so Perry's aunt disappeared there on the island.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so this time I'm handing it across to CC first.
[SPEAKER_02]: CC, what do you think?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that description deserves it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't, don't, don't, don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like to kick off again with with with what I feel like I isn't really well deserved compliment.
[SPEAKER_01]: The writing is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like so great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a very
[SPEAKER_01]: strict policy that I do not compliment someone's writing unless it is a thousand percent genuine even if someone's like about to be destroyed in front of me They absolutely need the the compliment.
[SPEAKER_01]: They need the help.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it will give them I don't know feel I don't do it Like I would never compliment someone's writing unless it's genuine and I need you to know the writing here is really strong like It wasn't a single-clunky sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: There wasn't a single situation where I was like wait what like I could see
[SPEAKER_01]: because I paid attention, because I intentionally paid attention, I could see the care that went into it, and yet at the same time, as I was reading it for the first time, it was so organic, and it was just flowing, and like really, really well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's refreshing to see this, and thank you so much for working so hard on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have notes on story.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first paragraph, a lots of well-written description, really strong writing, but very little through the protagonist's subjective lenses.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, almost everything in the first paragraph is objective description.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not quite something that's like her opinion or her impression or her interpretation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay, not my preference, but that's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like when I read that I go, okay, I worry that the author isn't going to really give me access to her head and her heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was something that popped in my mind after the first paragraph.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I read the line, Perry pretended not to hear their mutters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this is your first one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the first line should be Perry pretended not to hear the mutters, because I'd immediately go mutters while people muttering about Perry, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you can have, you can obviously play around with it, you're the author, but then you can have the description, you can have the dialogue, you can have everything else, but that, to me,
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I love that she's pretending.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that someone muttering about someone is obviously curiosity-inducing, so I think that should be your first line.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, this is probably my biggest note.
[SPEAKER_01]: So these people are, as you characterized, muttering about her, like, she is a teenage girl alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of how vulnerable she is.
[SPEAKER_01]: up boat, going to this island where all these things happened, like this island that was forbidden for her for so long, her dad clearly sat her there against her will.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people are muttering about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of the vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_01]: My first question after reading this is, why don't we have information on whether or not she expected to be whispered about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I want you to keep all the muttering, but then I want either her head to think,
[SPEAKER_01]: She came prepared for a lot, but she did not come prepared for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: or this is why she didn't want to come here.
[SPEAKER_01]: She knew that there would be gossip.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't expect it to happen quite so soon, but she knew that this island would be invasive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or why would her father send her to this place where she knew people would whisper about her?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but I needed her expectation because tension can't happen without us knowing what the protagonist's expectation is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually that's not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Attention can still happen, but it'll never be as tense as it could be without expectations, because if you do have tension here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it was a great detail that I really, really, really wanted you to add this.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the captain told her, like, your family doesn't need to lose another girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not just whispering about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, straight up, saying it to her face.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I keep coming back to that question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did was she expecting this level of invasiveness?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I wouldn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if she was, what does she make of it?
[SPEAKER_01]: If she wasn't, what does she make of it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I really liked the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: She missed the weight of her father's armor on her shoulders.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wished he hadn't sent her away.
[SPEAKER_01]: it establishes she's not there by choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes me curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would also again wonder did her father knows she was going to be up against these whispers by all by herself.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time though, when she arrives at the island, you have a line that reads Perry stared hungrily, as though she'd only have one chance to memorize the island's contours.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, wait, she doesn't want to be here, but she's staring at the island hungrily.
[SPEAKER_01]: despite not wanting to be there, Perry couldn't help but be still be fascinated by the island that had haunted her childhood or whatever the line's gonna be.
[SPEAKER_01]: But having contradiction is great, but he can't see my intention on so the protagonist confronting that contradiction is in great way to ensure that it feels intentional and to give us psychological security.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also feel that when she meets her aunt, we are getting similar to the first paragraph, description on her as a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's standing under street lamp.
[SPEAKER_01]: One arm is raised in greeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's wearing a neat, duffel coat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her hair is in a braided bun.
[SPEAKER_01]: She pulls Perry into an embrace.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But where's Perry's processing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's the interior yardie?
[SPEAKER_01]: where her opinions, where her interpretations, where her specific thoughts and feelings on and more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when Nora says, you were a chubby baby and now you're all needs and elbows.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this make her feel insecure?
[SPEAKER_01]: Embarrassed, infantilized, loved, is she pleased with Shanna diet?
[SPEAKER_01]: Something else, like, I need to know how she's receiving these comments, and that needs to be through lenses of her unique socio-emotional framework.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that she's withholding.
[SPEAKER_01]: When her aunt asks her how the voyage was, there's a line that clearly says Perry shows not to mention the things they've said behind her back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why not?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why isn't she sharing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she not trust her aunt?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she not want to be a burden?
[SPEAKER_01]: Have recent events led her to be, you know, maybe she's determined to only be positive.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, she's gone through things in her life and she's like, I'm only going to say nice things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is, but I want to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: When her aunt tells her it'll be good for you being here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she believe it?
[SPEAKER_01]: How does it make her feel?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does she see it as like, oh, another grown-up being to toxicly positive?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or does she go like, yeah, I hope she's right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or something else?
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess,
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm saying, yes, this is very, very strong, like all the applause for the scene work, for the writing, for the character, I felt like we needed more on her motion, more on her interior, already more on her processing, sprinkle throughout, not like an isolated paragraph, sprinkle throughout, because we really want us to connect with Perry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you right now, Perry's getting 30% more attention than the other characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: It needs to be like 230% more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we're in her head.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have access to what no one else has in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember being a kid and asking my dad, I was four.
[SPEAKER_01]: How I could possibly read other people's thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I remember the day that I realized that the voice in my head was not unique to me that everyone had a voice in their head.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was just me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I was special.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, if everyone has a voice, that means that they might be thinking things that I don't know, and how do I find out?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I asked my dad, like, how do you find out what other people are thinking?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, there's no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember it was the first time that I asked my dad a question, like, how do you do X?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the answer was, it's impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was very upset about it because it meant that all my curiosity about what people were thinking I would never know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so finally I discovered books and I was like, this is how I can know what a person is thinking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, finance is a traditional character, but let's be honest, usual thoughts are boring, fictional thoughts are usually interesting, so that's just better.
[SPEAKER_01]: So please do the magical thing of giving me access to her interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Kali handing it across to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, my notes were largely the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just gonna kind of see some points where I just wanted to know what she was thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll give you some examples.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I like CC's edits about, you know, where maybe what the first line should be, but in the first paragraph you have,
[SPEAKER_00]: The engine, coughed and rattle, the trawler, creaking grown as she rode the ocean swells as though about to give up and sink beneath the waves and right away at that point I'm like how does she feel about that issue depressed to be on this ship and what thinking about going down with the ship is she like let's just get me to that land safely I want to leave everything behind that was the first moment where I was like how how does what's happening in the universe having effect on how she feels and how is the reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we know what emotional state is she going into this way?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm okay with a bit of a whole withholding.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at some point, we just have to kind of start to sprinkle in the layers of, you know, what are we withholding and why?
[SPEAKER_00]: And why does she feel that way?
[SPEAKER_00]: But what she's withholding, you know, like just do that dance with the reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was kind of one of the first instances of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really loved all of the atmosphere.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know from her opening the door and then all of a sudden it's like, you know, she's getting hit with that gust of wind and the hair is getting tangled and then it's like the smell of diesel and salts and anyway Like I just felt like you did such a great job and it really spoke to obviously you're intimate understanding of you know how she had said all of that work So I just absolutely love that
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think these opening pages follow one of my most important rules about what an opening page should entail and that is meeting a character at the most interesting point in their life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do truly believe that we are probably meeting this character at the most interesting point in her life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously I've read the whole book.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's why these pages work is like this is a huge moment for her and it's very important that we're meeting her now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another example of when we could know a little bit more,
[SPEAKER_00]: is like when she's meeting this boy he's like trying to get her suitcase get her down from the ship all of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Foley says there's not enough for boys of his type to do any more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't go falling in with his crowd you hear.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so at that moment I wanted to know like what does happen on this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I like what she thinking happens on this island is she going to school?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is she going to work?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's kind of where like the whole speculative and historical context matters a little bit because not that I want to do a whole like it's going to be her first day of school tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to know what does she think she's doing on this island?
[SPEAKER_00]: And if there's nothing for boys like him to do an able-bodied 15-year-old or 18-year-old, it's probably there for her to do on this island and why is it important that she gets that doesn't get into trouble other than the common teenager reasons of not getting into trouble.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was the kind of thing where we could go deeper.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really curious with the aunt.
[SPEAKER_00]: So is this a biological aunt or is this an aunt by marriage?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if she's meeting somebody from her bloodline, would she be like, she has the same nose as me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I haven't seen her in 20 year or not 20, she's not 20, but you don't even like, I haven't seen her in 12 years or her smile reminds me of my mom's smile or the way that she did that reminded me of ex.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I just thought like, if there could be some element of, you know, do we look like do we sound like when I heard that call that sounded like the way my dad would call my name or my mom again, whoever this aunt is actually biologically related to so I would just love that like biological thing to click in there I think that would be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, another than that I just had notes like I love the setting work so much so yeah you got lots and lots of praise for me I thought you did a fantastic job and I'm just echoing what CC said about that like, you know, a little bit of interiority will go a long way.
[SPEAKER_02]: some Carly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're heading and we're going to pass it across to you now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what would you like to say?
[SPEAKER_02]: What questions do you have for us?
[SPEAKER_03]: feedback was all excellent and I think I'm going to log kind of a big picture question at you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I've been querying this manuscript for several months now, gotten some full requests, a lot of rejections, but some agents have been kind enough to send some personalized feedback as well, which has been fantastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: And most of the feedback I've gotten is that it's good, the writing is good, the story is good, but people aren't quite sure how they would market it or sell it or where it would fit on a shelf.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm kind of at this crossroads right now where do I keep
[SPEAKER_03]: going ahead, querying with the manuscript at Aziz, or I thought about doing a full overhaul, keeping the theme and the setting and some of the ideas and plot points of this story, but rewriting it with an adult protagonist and kind of transforming it more into
[SPEAKER_03]: market fiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know this is such a specific and manuscript, specific question, but really if you guys had any thoughts or guidelines or feedback on any of that, I would be very happy to hear it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always hard we haven't read the full manuscript to give you like a full analysis.
[SPEAKER_00]: My first instinct was what you were saying, which is like, do we need to add an adult
[SPEAKER_00]: makes it more of like across over or, you know, makes it very clearly for the adult market.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So some of what you said sounds like classic rejection letters.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of hard to be like, okay, well, you know, again, was it personalized or how much of it was you need to be like, not seeing where it fits in the market?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: did some of the thing, it wasn't speculative enough, did some of them think it was too historical, did some of them think, yeah, I'm trying to think of like what?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it was mostly that it's sitting at kind of an awkward place of YA, where kind of the tone and the voice might be coming across as
[SPEAKER_03]: a little too mature for YA, but then not mature enough to be adult.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's sort of kind of in an awkward place.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things, and it's hard, again, not having read the pages, but I wonder a little bit, we haven't seen a lot of your dialogue.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so far, only the dialogue is between the captain and her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's obviously the aunt and her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they only like teen to teen dialogue is her and the boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make it literary or does that make just make it like dot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's it's one of the things that's hard because we've seen I don't work on a lot of way, but I did just interview Katie Burnett for the podcast and I'm not sure when this is airing so this might after air after Katie Burnett said to review.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, like one of the things that really makes something YA is that like intensity of that teen experience and what you have here is a very like intense plot, but it does seem a bit more than coming of age, it seems more like coming of a universe, you know, coming of a world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in the query letter, you have it really highlighted the interpersonal teen dynamics at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've only highlighted the plot dynamics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can see how, again, not having read the whole manuscript, but it might be a case where, you know, is it actually not why it all?
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because she's 15.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it need to be why?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, I'll stop rambling.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, see, if you haven't, could you guys want to chime in?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just wanted to say what's really interesting is in a upcoming deep dive that I first of January 1st of February, we have Chloe Sageer joining us from the Madeline Melbourne Agency and her topic of discussion is going to be keeping up with market trains.
[SPEAKER_02]: And especially she's going to discuss how the YA market has changed over the last 10 years, exploring the emerging new adult trend and the huge recent shift towards, you know, science fiction fantasies.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that there'll be a lot of answers there for us as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so looking forward to that session.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am actually thinking of a meeting I had, just like grabbing a lunch with an editor who is who just moved to a new adult imprint.
[SPEAKER_01]: And.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're obviously very hungry, very hungry for new stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're acquiring actively.
[SPEAKER_01]: New adult is growing industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, she was telling me that, whereas in their YA imprint, they publish, I think he was about 40 titles a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you adult, they started with 12, but now they already at 24.
[SPEAKER_01]: And which is to say, again, growing interest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the books she acquired was actually pitched as YA,
[SPEAKER_01]: with the author be open to making this new adult and then you know chatted with the agent and the author and the author was open.
[SPEAKER_01]: So can you change this to make this adult?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you change this to make this new adult?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to the boundless creativity of the human brain, there are infinite possibilities that this could take.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would however suggest, and again this is just my own opinion, someone who does not know the YA market and you can
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that you should change it because of what the letters are saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Too often agents, I myself have done this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am very confident every agent has done this as long as they've been on the market for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: Too often we say things like, I don't know how to market this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not because it's a lie, but because it's an answer that,
[SPEAKER_01]: is simple to give.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still true, but there's also an end, an end that's missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can't get into the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the end could be, after reading five pages and it's just five pages, I'm not connecting with your character.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because again, in my opinion, I'm not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do I know why I market?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but I know stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know three things in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Books, and to chocolate
[SPEAKER_01]: This character is not fully developed on the page.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it possible that as a page six she is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that is very rare.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen that happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, most people don't get to page six.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I actually think that maybe make this adult, but whether you do or you don't, I still think you need to work on the connecting with character element.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope it's okay for me to say that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, I'm good thing I'm taking your writing interiority and psychological attuity class.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you all that sort of stuff?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I would like to make it available.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I would like to make it available to you for free.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I will reach out because you're on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're helping elevate the community experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: So reach out, reach out.
[SPEAKER_02]: amazing, amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you so much for coming on the show and allowing us to critique your query later and thus make it an educational experience for all of our listeners as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back next week with an author interview and then after that box with hox, you know where to submit on our website.
[SPEAKER_02]: So go over there if you'd like to be on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so
[SPEAKER_02]: CC Lera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshermin.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Kali on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.