[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
[SPEAKER_05]: What if aiming for fairness in your relationship is actually what's driving disconnection?
[SPEAKER_05]: We've all been sold idea of a 50-50 partnership that each person should contribute equally to make a relationship work.
[SPEAKER_05]: But what happens when that model falls apart?
[SPEAKER_05]: Under the realities of life, stress,
[SPEAKER_05]: parenting and ambition.
[SPEAKER_05]: In this episode, we're joined by Nate and Kaylee Clemp, the husband and wife team behind the 8080 marriage, a new model for a happier, stronger relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: Drawing from their backgrounds in mindfulness, leadership, and high-performance coaching,
[SPEAKER_05]: Nate and Kaylee developed a new framework after struggling in their own marriage to find balance between two demanding careers and the daily grind of partnership.
[SPEAKER_05]: Their research back model, pushes beyond fairness toward something they call radical generosity, where both partners aim to give 80%.
[SPEAKER_05]: Not because it's always perfectly even, but because the relationship is self becomes the shared priority.
[SPEAKER_05]: Through the lens of equity theory, a concept in relationship psychology that suggests we're most satisfied when we perceive a balance between what we give and what we receive.
[SPEAKER_05]: We explore how traditional fairness models can actually erode connection.
[SPEAKER_05]: The clamps argue that when couples focus less on getting their fair share, and more on co-creating a partnership where both go all in, relationships thrive.
[SPEAKER_05]: We talk about why the traditional 50-50 mindset often leads to resentment and scorekeeping.
[SPEAKER_05]: how couples can navigate the transition from dating into more structured long-term commitment, and what it actually looks like to co-create a relationship built on shared success and mutual care.
[SPEAKER_05]: We dig into the structural shifts that help long-term relationships evolve, how to handle inevitable transitions from dating to cohabitation to parenthood and beyond, and why shared success, not equal input, is the real marker of a resilient relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: powerful reframing of how we love, give, and grow in partnership.
[SPEAKER_05]: Remember to go to Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and leave us a rating and review.
[SPEAKER_05]: And better yet, leave us a comment about what you learned from this episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
[SPEAKER_05]: Enjoy.
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you have a successful relationship or marriage?
[SPEAKER_05]: Nobody knows these days because the model for a successful relationship keeps changing with our society.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we no longer can look to our parents to say, this is what makes a marriage work because 50% of our parents are also divorced.
[SPEAKER_05]: So this is very interesting that we have Nate Klempe and Kaylee Klempe on the phone with us today who wrote a book called The 8080 Marriage,
[SPEAKER_03]: We are so excited to have you and the book was phenomenal so definitely excited to dig in deeper on this episode with you all awesome So so excited to be here you have you to this episode beautifully that 80 80 is really about letting go of the old models that our parents had about What relationships might look like and instead saying as we're going into relationships now we know that we are equals with each other
[SPEAKER_03]: And we want to create a relationship where it feels like we're equals and in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: And previously, the very best that we could do was the technology of fairness.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's make sure that we're equals by making things super fair.
[SPEAKER_03]: 50, 50.
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the problem was that created so much for us to fight about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was the one who picked up dinner last time it's your turn.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was one who planned our cool date last time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now it's your turn keeping tabs exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this keeping score was such an issue.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so 80 80 is all about dropping keeping score.
[SPEAKER_03]: Shifting your mindset to that of radical generosity, where you're contributing, appreciating, and revealing to each other, and from that place you're able to create a structure of shared success, which really just means you know your values, which means you can identify your priorities, set clear boundaries, identify your roles, and balance your power, which interestingly leads to really great sex.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think that's really interesting because I feel like we keep hearing in modern culture that we want to strive for equality.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know you just touched on this a bit, but why do you think this is flawed?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like this motion of equality?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I actually think there's a really important distinction here between equality and fairness.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, as Kaylee was mentioned earlier, we are all about equality and marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like we are living in the generation that's all about equality and marriage and contrast to our grandparents who had very different structures.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even our parents may have had very different structures.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the key question couples are asking now is, how can we be equals and in love without killing each other essentially?
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason we're killing each other is because of this very clunky technology of fairness that Kaylee was talking about a minute ago, this idea that the way we get a quality is by creating this like the world's biggest spreadsheet ever that tracks each person's contributions across different domains and run some sort of like incredibly sophisticated algorithm in the background that tells us when things are exactly fair and when they're not and when they're not we're going to fight with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, that's kind of the mindset that I think many couples have going into that transition from dating to a more serious relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was definitely our mindset.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the whole idea of 80 is how can we be equals without reverting to that sort of like habitual pattern of fairness?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some of the technologies include that mindset shifts to radical generosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of keeping score, we're focused on appreciating doing radically generous acts of contribution, which turns out to be contagious and gives us more of what we actually wanted in the first place.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think the real problem is that that really murky distinction between equality and fairness.
[SPEAKER_05]: And Nate, you touch upon this too, is that you experience this in your own marriage.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm guessing that's what inspired you to write this book.
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like this notion of fairness is also very subjective.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I hear in my parents' relationship, my mom's like, what's fair is that I cook and he cleans and in my dad's eyes, he's like, you cook and I do the yard work and that's fair.
[SPEAKER_05]: So can you tell us about what was it that inspired you to come up with this 80, 80 notion?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this story of your parents because fairness doesn't actually exist and that's one of the reasons that people end up fighting about it so much is one, our definitions are totally different so what actually equals fairness but also our metrics are completely broken and
[SPEAKER_03]: Part of this is availability bias, which is the psychologist fancy way of saying, I know a hundred percent of the things that I do and I know very little of what you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I am highly aware of how much time and attention I put into making sure that when we were hanging out with our families, it was awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have very little awareness of how horrible was the yard that you just cleaned up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there's this sense of what I did was hard and what you did was easy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so what I did count more and I should get credit for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so again, we're fighting over something that doesn't even exist.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was funny as part of this book we did about a hundred interviews.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if we asked people the question, do you have a fight about fairness?
[SPEAKER_03]: They would say not really.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they would go on to tell us all of these stories of them fighting about fairness.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was completely unfair that I'm the one who always puts the cap on the toothpaste, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or it's totally unfair that I cook these beautiful meals and when it's his turn, we go for pizza.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what did you guys run into?
[SPEAKER_04]: What was it that inspired the shift that you looked at your own marriage?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, we had quite an interesting transition from dating to a more serious relationship, which I assume is pretty much ubiquitous.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's never a very clean and easy transition, but for us, we had been dating long distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we first met in high school,
[SPEAKER_00]: So we dated a little bit then and we broke up and seven years later we got back together.
[SPEAKER_00]: At that point we were long distance for a year or so and it was like this magical experience and every time I saw Kaylee I thought she walked on water and and
[SPEAKER_00]: hoping she thought the same about me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we decided to move in together, Kaylee had a condo, and I moved in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like a week or two into that that we just hit the wall of fairness and actually start the book on this story where I used to walk into this condo, and I would just like kick off my shoes and leave them in a pile in front of the floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Kaylee actually hid my shoes in like one of those cabinets above the refrigerator that nobody ever uses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Vika and that was one of our first fairness fights, where's what what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did you hide my shoes and for what perspective, you know, here I was just leaving my crap everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: but it was really interesting that we had no idea all of the structural things that we were gonna need to think about and all the changes that were gonna happen just from that transition to from like longest in stating where everything was magical and we'd meet up at a hotel to like all of a sudden we're living together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I think this is something I definitely related to as I read this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm in a newer relationship less than a year.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've never lived with someone before.
[SPEAKER_04]: and I think a lot of our listeners might be in the same boat or even just an early-day stage dating.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think sometimes it's hard to imagine that it will go to that place where we're kind of fighting over all these mundane type things.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think a lot of people that haven't even met their person yet are want to think they're different in a way.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like I've spent all this time trying to find this person and now I'm just going to find about shoes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this inevitable or is there
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a little scary to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll be completely honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in some ways, we wrote this book as a gift to our past selves and what we hope is to a new generation of people who are entering dating that had we had any of the tools around how do you reveal in a way that's thoughtful?
[SPEAKER_03]: and caring so that you don't end up fighting or doing things that are passive aggressive around things as ridiculous as shoes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that also holding more space for appreciation for one another, which again in the early days of dating, I think there can be this magical experience of you're so awesome and I tell you all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then sometimes we miss those details of each other that I want to be appreciative for.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so had we had 80, 80 when we were dating, I would love to believe that I never would have hidden niches.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I guess that's a good transition to going into like really what 80, 80 means because like I would love, I would love this idealistic state that I preserve how I'm feeling today for the rest of my life, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's really two pieces to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of it is a shift in mindset, and one of the pieces is about the structure of your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you look at the mindset piece, it's really this shift from that default habit of 50, 50 fairness thinking that leads us to keep score to an alternative mindset of radical generosity, where the idea is instead of just striving for
[SPEAKER_00]: and that makes no sense, the math doesn't add up, we're well aware of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: In some ways, that's the whole point because it turns out that from the perspective of fairness, generosity is actually irrational.
[SPEAKER_00]: Generosity doesn't make any sense and so when you're anchored in that fairness perspective, it becomes very limited and it leads to all sorts of conflict.
[SPEAKER_00]: So making that shift to generosity is sort of step one and there's really a few different
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we think in relationships that contribution needs to be some huge thing like planning a trip to Bali and like wow Kaylee's going to be so excited about that, but it turns out that what's actually more important are those little micro actions, you know Leaving a post-it note on our computer monitor that says I love you
[SPEAKER_00]: you know taking her car to fill it up with gas sounds so mundane but it can be huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: The second piece is about appreciation which Kaylee talked about a moment ago which is really just like instead of scanning your partner for everything they're doing wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: and all the ways in which they didn't quite measure up, you're looking for the things they did right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when you see that, appreciating them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's one other piece, which is really about, can you reveal your full truth in the relationship?
[SPEAKER_00]: And revealing is about revealing, hey, what's really going on with me, at work, in life, emotionally.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also about like,
[SPEAKER_00]: all those little microscopic ruptures in connection that happen when I feel pissed off that, you know, Kaylee nagged me about not unloading the dishwasher or whatever that might be, it's it's just revealing that so that instead of pulling us for their part, it brings us closer together.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it gives you permission for each other to give that extra 30% in a relationship and to share that extra 30% but I know we have some very quantitative based listeners who are thinking how do you know you've been giving 80% versus 65% or 70% how do you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit the 80% you know when you've hit
[SPEAKER_03]: you don't, which is in some ways at the point that the whole idea is can you stop scorekeeping, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: In some ways you could do it where it actually becomes the exact same problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just gave 80% and you were only at 72 is exactly this right argument as fighting for 50-50.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the whole idea is, can I overshoot, can I do
[SPEAKER_03]: more.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would add a bit of a caveat here, which I think is really neat, early in relationships, which is around what matters to you to receive, because if you're going to go above and beyond, might as well have it land in the other person's world as something fantastic that they really cherish, where as a for instance, early on, Nate would get me flowers, and it was amazing and
[SPEAKER_03]: I am so good at killing living things that can't speak for themselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these gorgeous flowers will be for one day and then I would just feel bad about myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whereas if you could plan something for us to do together, even if it was free, that meant the world to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so finding ways that if you're gonna do that extra 30%.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or if you're gonna stop keeping score, can you do something that really feels delightful to the person that you're doing it for?
[SPEAKER_04]: it's honing in on love languages for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm what I'm hearing, too, is it's like, how do we appreciate the part of the relationship that, you know, made us attracted to this person that the first place, not if they've done the dishes or they've done some other kind of household type thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then that stuff also is going to come into play, but how can we start to, you know, appreciate the stuff that made us fall in love in the first place?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely, and one thing I'll say that I think is really important is I think for a lot of people when they first hear this idea of radical generosity, it sounds like this kind of fantasy land that's almost delusionaly great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they could never actually work, you know, because many of us are psychology is locked in this perspective of fairness.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one thing that I think is important to know about this is that there's a way in which your mindset in relationships is contagious.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that applies if you're in that 50-50 mindset of fairness, but it also applies if you're in the 80-80 mindset of radical generosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the way this actually works in a tangible fashion is that when you do that shift to radical generosity, there's a contagious way in which your partner starts to pick up on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And your resume starts to dissolve, but your partner's resentment starts to dissolve.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the way it actually shifts the culture of the relationship is through that sort of contagious nature of mindset.
[SPEAKER_05]: Ideally, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: But there could be a relationship where the other partner just keeps taking, taking and taking.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's when you know you should probably get out of that relationship, I assume?
[SPEAKER_04]: Or is there a way to turn it around?
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess that's the question, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: it could be either one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're in a relationship where it feels like you are being taken advantage of or where it feels like you've tried to have the conversation and it's not shifting, that might be a moment where you say perhaps this isn't a person with whom I'm going to take that next step.
[SPEAKER_03]: If, however, you are already committed or you're really interested in stretching yourself and growing, it's a great inquiry to wonder how am I setting it up so that I'm the person who's doing it all.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's in some ways a difficult look in the mirror.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was that person where I was doing everything, and then I would just resent Nate, and I got a little adrenaline boost of
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so responsible and I do everything and you're such a slacker and I was mad and I complained and I also was controlling and seated no responsibility and so with that tricky look in the mirror, I could see I've set it up this way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, what am I willing to risk to have Nate be the partner that I most want.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can really relate to that because I think I've been that person in past relationships and I think I even said to you I have like I think it comes down to trust like I don't trust people and you like have that sense of control and it's been like a work to try to relinquish that trust and I've definitely seen it show up different in my current relationship like how do people start to like relinquish control and you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: because I think part of it's like if I don't do it, what if it doesn't happen at all and my expectations aren't met?
[SPEAKER_03]: I would encourage folks who relate to you and me, Julie, to start with things that aren't the end of the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I might start with something where I say, it's okay if the meal isn't perfect or it's okay if the date is great and not amazing or it's okay if whatever it is isn't exactly the way that I would do it if it were me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't start with, you know, it's okay if we just don't show up to babysit my niece.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I was telling things where the consequences of it not working out well are livable.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think the other piece that's really challenging if you're in that controlling mentality is sometimes we also forget to give our partner enough tools to do it well.
[SPEAKER_03]: gosh, Nate, 10 years of our relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, I would get so mad that he would spend in ways that I thought were irresponsible, but I also gave him no insight into our finances.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was completely unfair.
[SPEAKER_03]: complaint.
[SPEAKER_03]: Only when I showed him how to do all the things that I was doing and gave an access to all of the things that I was looking at, which was to your point, requiring that I trusted a lot more, could he actually shift his behavior and show up the way that I wanted?
[SPEAKER_05]: So how do we take this into more of a domestic situation?
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just thinking about something as mundane as taking out the trash or doing the dishes or doing the grocery shopping.
[SPEAKER_05]: If I feel like I want my partner to also help with these things,
[SPEAKER_05]: do I give them that information and say, these are the things that would make our relationship better, or do you, if you're the one wanting to do these things, you just do it and have your partner step up in other ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is where I think having a conversation about the structure of your life together is super important because you can be radically generous all day and end up in that pattern.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were talking about UA where you end up doing everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really not a good place for you and it's probably not a good place for your partner to be in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's also a conversation here about, how are we setting up our lives together, which interestingly isn't really an interesting conversation or a necessary conversation when you're dating.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you're dating, structure is like, who's gonna call who or who's gonna attack?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're on Friday night it's like all these really fun exciting questions and then you move in together and all of a sudden the scope of these structural issues expands and so for us One of the key structural pieces that changed everything turned out to be super simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: We sat down one day and we wrote out all of our roles and responsibilities
[SPEAKER_00]: in our sort of marriage together.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Kaylee had her list, I had my list.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't to see like, is this fair?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was more to see, is this working for us?
[SPEAKER_00]: And are we even clear on who's doing what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of couples, you know, we did all these interviews and we'd ask, how did you decide who does what?
[SPEAKER_00]: How did you come up with the structure of roles?
[SPEAKER_00]: And almost every couple we talked to said, I don't know, we just kind of winged it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We started to call that the winged approach, where the idea is, hey, let's let 1950s gender norms and historical accident determine who doesn't
[SPEAKER_00]: And it turns out that's a really bad system.
[SPEAKER_00]: It leads generally to the woman in the relationship and heterosexual relationship doing more.
[SPEAKER_00]: So literally, you can write out your roles.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you have the opportunity which Kaylee and I did to think, hey, let's come up with a new structure that fits what we're good at, what we like to do, that gives us actual clarity around who does what.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for us, that was a total game changer.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think you did a really great job in the book like do a kind of the history of the evolution of marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you hit on it this 80, 20, which was the more traditional gender roles.
[SPEAKER_04]: What our parents' generation was, you know, in a marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I definitely see this with my parents.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like my mom does the more domestic tasks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Owens the household and then my dad is the primary breadwitter, like from a work perspective, but obviously things have shifted with women's equality in the 50-50 worlds was more like separating it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So where do you see the future with ED, ED with roles and responsibilities?
[SPEAKER_04]: I know you just mentioned Nate a little about doing what works for you, but how do you see that playing out?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that belief is if you are able to look at all of the things that you're
[SPEAKER_03]: And then select your roles based on what you're good at and what you care about and then make some choices where I don't know that anybody's like, you know what I'm so good at is taking out the trash right
[SPEAKER_03]: But being willing to say, hey, it really bothers me when the trash can starts to get to the top.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna own that because it bothers me so much more than it bothers you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And being willing to have the conversation from that perspective, what it allows is choice.
[SPEAKER_03]: It allows intentionality, also around things that you might say, we want to outsource that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That it's not important to either of us can we make some decisions
[SPEAKER_03]: to either not do it at all or to outsource it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just having the conversation as I look into the future, what I imagine is complementarity rather than fighting over what needs to be done.
[SPEAKER_05]: I am so on board with this, but I'm also very curious too, because Julie's aware that at the beginning of the pandemic, my boyfriend and I accidentally moved in together, like lots of couples did, we had a lot of conflicts in the beginning, because I think there's a
[SPEAKER_05]: There's this notion or assumption that when you live together, you contribute to the same tasks.
[SPEAKER_05]: So for him, he felt like, well, if he's getting the groceries that I would just voluntarily want to hop on this grocery train and say, let me help get more groceries.
[SPEAKER_05]: do you believe, and I'm sure it's different for all relationships, but do you believe in general?
[SPEAKER_05]: Couples should have clearly defined roles and responsibilities where they don't share these responsibilities, so you know exactly what you're doing from day to day.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there is so much value in clarity and becoming more conscious about who's doing what.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in some ways, I think the biggest shift you can make on all levels in a relationship is going from unconscious, unintentional, chaotic, to conscious, structured, clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it doesn't necessarily lead to, okay, well, now you need to have two completely different lists of roles and responsibilities, and there should be no shared roles in the household.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's the conclusion here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that primary conclusion is the clear it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: The more both people are aware of what the structure actually looks like, the less you're going to fight about it, and then you get to decide
[SPEAKER_00]: do we want to share certain things?
[SPEAKER_00]: So Kaylee and I have a number of shared roles, you know, sometimes she makes dinner, sometimes I make dinner, sometimes she takes our daughter to school, sometimes I do, and we actually like that because those are both things that we enjoy doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are other things where it's it's a clearly defined Nate role.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I am the trash guy I take this morning, I do it every Tuesday morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just my job.
[SPEAKER_00]: If Kaylee started taking the trash out, I would actually be really confused and worry concerned that I woke up in some bizarre universe or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I think that's really the key and then the other thing to think about is with all these structural pieces around finances and roles and priorities that they change.
[SPEAKER_00]: And since you just do this once, you know, you move in together during COVID and you're like, okay, let's define our roles for the next 100 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more like, hey, let's define our roles for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then who knows what's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you move to a different home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you've got all sorts of new things to worry about.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got a pool to clean or hot to have to do whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's an ongoing dynamic process.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, so this is like more back to like the 1920s type view that 8020, but it was based on your breadwinning, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the man didn't do the household because they were the one that made more money.
[SPEAKER_04]: In today's world, that could be either partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you view that there is still an association with work and income that correlates to home or do you view those
[SPEAKER_03]: Interestingly, what we found goes hand in hand with money is if you're not intentional about it, that can very easily lead to power dynamics in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not necessarily that the power shows up around who's going to
[SPEAKER_03]: do the domestic tasks or who's going to take care of the child, but rather it becomes if you're not mindful about balancing the power, the person who earns more money often unconsciously feel like they get an extra vote.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we heard from couples in our interviews things like, I decide where we go on vacation because it's really
[SPEAKER_03]: my money.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it would come out sideways for the person's like, oh, it's your vacation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so passive aggressiveness started to occur and what we really encourage in 80 80 is noticing.
[SPEAKER_03]: where power is showing up in balance in your relationship and using structure as a tool to help bring it into balance.
[SPEAKER_03]: So sometimes that looks with money like a budget.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes that looks like
[SPEAKER_03]: how you do independent parts of money versus shared parts of money.
[SPEAKER_03]: If it's around domestic labor, it might also be around these roles and responsibilities.
[SPEAKER_03]: If it's around sex, you might use structure around, do you set up a date night or are there different cues that you use with one another so that you balance drive?
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's really about power that you want to pay attention.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hmm, so I could hear like the people that are dating and super single.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a little daunting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this what I'm signing up for?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is there ways that we can kind of get ahead of this in early stage dating and start to apply these kind of methodologies early on?
[SPEAKER_04]: One, I guess, to kind of set up this idea of the mentality.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then also, that if your partner has the capacity to do something like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that question and Kaylee and I were just talking earlier about how in some ways building a relationship is like building a company and you have that early stage where it's all just an idea and you can just dream big and it's all possibility and like wow, what if we change the world with this thing and you don't have to work about setting up HR
[SPEAKER_00]: You're putting yourself from litigation.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're hearing an investment banker to acquire a company.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think the same is true of a relationship where you start off in that dating phase, and it can be very magical.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you actually don't want to think about all this structural stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: an aversion to it because it's not very fun and interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's worth thinking about especially as you start to make that transition towards something more serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: So not even marriage, but just like you're starting to transition from casual dating to hey, I might actually want to build something with this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are just a couple tools that you might want to start working with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one is just this mindset that we've been talking about radical generosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: But another is really starting to explore what we call in the book Revealing, which is, as I said before, it's just the ability to reveal your full truth, the good and the bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I know from my experiences of dating, this was like one of the biggest barriers to having a successful relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was usually me having some issue with the person I was dating.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe they showed up five minutes late or I didn't like their phone hygiene
[SPEAKER_00]: And I never told them about it and instead I was like, well, you know, I can't date someone who's five minutes late.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't going to work.
[SPEAKER_05]: You set your own rules.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you think there's someone perfect out there that won't have any of these issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the truth is, I wasn't revealing that I have a really clear preference for having you there on time or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that revealing piece, I think is is just key.
[SPEAKER_00]: And without developing that muscle and that skill in a relationship,
[SPEAKER_05]: What do you think about, since we're talking about early stage dating, how do we set the tone for revealing and basically setting boundaries in some ways and talking about your needs without stripping the romance out of a relationship?
[SPEAKER_05]: Or how do you infuse the romance back once you start having these conversations?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's
[SPEAKER_03]: finding the other side of revealing because what needs describing is essential being able to name with your partner the teeny tiny things that if they go unspoken could actually drive you apart.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the other side of revealing is knowing each other more deeply.
[SPEAKER_03]: and there's something really intimate and really attractive about getting to know someone at that next level.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this could be anything from what's something that you dream about that you were you might never get to experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in that conversation you get fears and vulnerability
[SPEAKER_03]: And so using revealing as a space where it's actually quite intimate that I think starts to make sure that it doesn't become like now I'm going to nitpick you, but rather here's who I really am and who are you.
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's a combination of, hey, I really do not like dirty socks on the floor to my dream vacation and let's start working towards that.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you cut a balance, the domestic with the sexy dreams.
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's also a way of revealing that will lead to a helpful response by your partner and a way of revealing that will lead to an unhelpful response.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it really has to do with your motivation or the sort of underlying energy of the reveal.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it comes purely from resentment, anger and a place of criticism, your partner is going to mirror that back to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas if you can do this kind of Jedi mind trick and you can reveal your complaints from a place of radical generosity, which I know sounds crazy, but it's possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do it all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're able to do that, all of a sudden you get a very different response because it's coming from a place of, hey, I love you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want this to work and when you leave your socks in front of my drawers, it's just, it's really hard for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel really frustrated.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the example that just happened that I thought was so powerful is I was with a couple and they had really different preferences about what happened with the phone at dinner.
[SPEAKER_03]: And partner one said to them, they were like, WTF with your phone.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm surprisedingly, the partner was like, if you with your phone and instead there's like, let's try this conversation again, why does this matter to you?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the person said, anytime your phone comes out, it feels like I'm not important to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And because we get so little time where it's just the two of us, I want you to be the most important person in my world in that moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to be the most important person in your world in that moment, totally different conversation with totally different results.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I love that like thinking that your partner has your best interest and they are there because they love you and they want to be there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's a good way to lead.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess where I struggle with all like especially with early stage.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to go back here is sometimes at that stage you don't know where you stand with someone.
[SPEAKER_04]: So how can you lead with generosity and want to assume the best versus, you know, set yourself up for a bad situation?
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you like balance the two?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think early stage in some ways what you're noticing is how does your partner meet you and how does your partner reciprocate?
[SPEAKER_03]: that you take a little risk and a little risk and a little risk and as your partner takes a little risk and a little risk right back with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: You start to build something that's really special.
[SPEAKER_03]: What I wouldn't necessarily recommend is you know go reveal your darkest secret and then be like what do you think of that right there's sort of a time and great and trust building that you've talked about a lot that helps you create a foundation so that you can keep revealing
[SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that you could consider is in the book we haven't exercised around your values and there's a place where whether it's early in your relationship if you're wanting to make sure that you don't waste your time or if it's at an inflection point in your relationship where you're starting to feel like this could get more serious a conversation about
[SPEAKER_03]: What values do you have for whatever chapter you're in?
[SPEAKER_03]: How will you know that you are winning the game of serious dating?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or how will you know that you're winning the game of life together and whatever that means for you?
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's not a right or wrong answer that some people will say, well know that we're winning if our life is characterized by adventure and love and they might choose to go on.
[SPEAKER_03]: amazing trips together.
[SPEAKER_03]: And others might say, will they that we're winning if we're able to support the other person pursuing a professional dream?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really that spring board of support for them to go do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those relationships might look really different.
[SPEAKER_03]: And those values might point them in different directions equally valid.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just worth the conversation and that's a really great one or the where do we stand and are we aligned?
[SPEAKER_05]: in section point.
[SPEAKER_05]: That makes a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm really impressed that this conversation can span every phase of a relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you couldn't tell by now Julie and I are both in relationships that are different phases.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we've got the early stage and then I'm sort of like in the three years in with the hiding the shoes and you know the mundane things that Julie's afraid to get into.
[SPEAKER_05]: feedback about your book and some of the reviews.
[SPEAKER_05]: And this is what I find very fascinating is that it's a self-selecting process of the people who pick up your book because it's a people who are already frustrated in their relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: So someone said this, they said the frustrating thing about this book is that the partner who is frustrated with the division labor in a marriage will read it and the other one won't.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think it applies to almost all relationship books this
[SPEAKER_05]: What would you say to the people who are thinking this because they've already built up that resentment?
[SPEAKER_05]: And this book probably makes them feel like I just need to throw this book at my partner and make them read it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's a great question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this turned out to be one of the most fundamental questions we asked ourselves when we were writing this book.
[SPEAKER_00]: We ended up writing an entire chapter on it, called the reluctant partner chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in some ways, this is the fundamental problem of a book like this or the fundamental challenge of writing a book like this is that, yeah, as you said, a lot of people who buy this book, they're looking to enhance their relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're likely the over contributor,
[SPEAKER_00]: are likely more interested in changing the relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the question becomes then, if you are that over-contributing partner, how do you motivate the under-contributing reluctant partner?
[SPEAKER_00]: And in some ways, as Kaylee mentioned before, this was our story.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was the over-contributing partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was the more reluctant partner who kind of had it great because she was doing everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then the question becomes okay, well, how do you solve that problem and I think there are a few things.
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, there is that principle that I laid out earlier that your mindset is contagious.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think like step one is to really look at your mindset because you may say, well, I already do 80%.
[SPEAKER_00]: But chances are you're doing 80% out of a mindset of this isn't fair, and there's a lot of resentment that's around that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first step is to just take that really close look at mindset and start running some little experiments in your life where you do that thing you always do that pisses you off, but you see if you can shift to, hey, this is a gift to us as a couple.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that sounds very difficult, but if you're able to do that, all of a sudden you might notice some subtle changes in the way you interact together.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I think it's also fair to bring in this practice of revealing and to start having some of these harder conversations.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're the one who does everything, it's fair to reveal that and to say, you know, hey, as a gift to our relationship, I'd like for you to do this practice with me on clarifying our roles together.
[SPEAKER_00]: or like you to sit down with me and let's talk through our values together and it is totally unfair that you're the one who's having to initiate that and it's totally unfair that you're having to push your partner into that and yet that's how this might start to unwind the pattern is taking that initiative and taking the risk really.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I guess like from your own personal stories, then it'd be neat first like how has this better-jeer relationship overall?
[SPEAKER_04]: How is this kind of pushed you to be that next-level version and they Kaylee, I would ask you the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well for me, I was this reluctant partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got married at 26.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was living in a graduate student dorm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kaylee had an actual career as a
[SPEAKER_00]: So we were coming into this a very different stages of life you might say even though we were the same age and one of the things that was really interesting about my experiences you might think that the reluctant under contributing partner has it made because here the other partner is doing everything but actually my experience was it was incredibly painful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, to be the one in the relationship who was the problem, who was the slacker, who was lazy, who was never doing enough like when you take that on as an identity that's actually incredibly painful so once we started to have some of these conversations and this really spans about 15 years so it wasn't like there was a moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the more we started to get clear on our roles and our priorities and our values and the more we started to shift our mindset away from fairness and just establish these clear structures, I felt like I was more empowered to be the partner that Kaylee wanted, to be an actual equal in our relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that, you know, the benefit has been amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it really feels like we are a team in every way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we, it's sort of us against the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just feels like total collaboration.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we were able to write a book and promote a book together, which is not an easy thing to do as a married couple.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was actually like really fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was very little drama involved in the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree in many respects with what Nate was saying for me mindset is necessary but in some ways insufficient that for me the greatest change was being able to be crystal clear on what our family values are so that now there's so much more clarity about what
[SPEAKER_03]: I say yes to and what I say no to because I'm not asking any more what is best for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm asking what's best for us and the answer is different.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the greatest benefit is what it was describing at the end that we feel like a team and not a team where there is sort of the ball hog around who's turned as it to dunk, but rather truly a team around empowering the other person to be their best.
[SPEAKER_03]: beautifully put.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I take it that you guys believe that couples can come back from, you know, this mentality of scorekeeping and all that.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's some advice that you would have maybe for two groups of people, maybe the people in relationships that are kind of going through this current day is tip for tap mentality and then maybe the group also that fear is going to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I think we are an example that this is possible because we were really stuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we were right on the verge of divorce.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of like a miracle that we didn't get divorced, but we were able to dig our way out of that and it was really about changing the underlying habits and behaviors of how we related to each other and all these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when it comes to the group of people in relationships and what they can do, I think a good starting point is to really look at two habits which we've talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: One is one radically generous act of contribution each day which again, doesn't have to be huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Could just be a very small thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could just be, you make dinner for your partner or you make them a cup of coffee in the morning or you pick up their jacket that they left on the floor, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: But just doing that one thing can have a really profound effect and then the other is that appreciation mindset shift where if you can appreciate your partner once a day and flip around those glasses that you wear when you're watching your partner from everything they did wrong to everything they did right that's another thing that's really powerful and for us we do this actually as a kind of ritual before we go to bed we each appreciate each other for one thing
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes like 60 seconds, maybe 90 seconds, but it totally changes the energy of the day and it brings us into connection right before we go to sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be for the established relationship folks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then for the people who are like, I don't know if I want to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I would say is we've talked a lot about structure and mindset and finances and power and all these kind of more boring all say structural pieces.
[SPEAKER_00]: But one of the things we haven't talked about is the reward on the other side of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: which is that when you are deeply connected with somebody, when you feel like you are absolutely on the same team, I mean, it's a unique human experience to feel that close and that connected.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that can often show up in the bedroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we like to say that through mindset and structure, you can create outrageously good sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's absolutely true because the thing that's keeping many couples from having amazing sex, especially after, you know, everything's new and you're not living together and it's like, oh my god, I see this person every day and all hours of the day, the thing that they can make sex amazing is connection and you can get that through mindset and structure.
[SPEAKER_04]: love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, this has been such a fascinating conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think for any what at any stage of a relationship, I definitely would couple take ways and I'll kind of kick off.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think my biggest takeaway is, you know, it's not to fear that like things are going to change in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's how do you maintain the stuff that's working even in the early stages, knowing that things are going to change, and knowing the structure is going to
[SPEAKER_04]: can you lead of not getting like the fear of, you know, taking advantage of or being hurt or whatever they make that may be.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's what kind of drives that generosity if you can change your mindset of this person wants to be with me.
[SPEAKER_04]: This person loves me.
[SPEAKER_04]: This person cares about me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that I think is something regardless of what stage you are.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even if it's something is annoying of this person is taking out the trash versus like this person maybe didn't text me back right away.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do they not like me anymore?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think this stays regardless of
[SPEAKER_04]: stage.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you don't get the response that you wanted, then it's an opportunity for conversation and going that that deeper path of just like expressing what you need in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that we can't be afraid to kind of have the expectation and have it fail because that is more of an opportunity to give your partner room to know how to show up.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then also, if it turns out you have these cover sessions over and over again, it things don't change, then you know what you need in a partner, and that's grounds for the next partnership.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think instead of leading with fear with this stuff, lead by the way you want to be in a relationship for yourself and, you know, not with the expectation, but also just as a way that this constraint in your bond.
[SPEAKER_05]: Love that.
[SPEAKER_05]: My biggest takeaway is we can't chase fairness.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I feel like I've wasted much of my time chasing fairness, not just in relationships, but in life.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we all know life is not fair.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are certain things we just can't explain.
[SPEAKER_05]: But choosing to chase fulfillment and this idea of equality in whatever the sense it means in a partnership.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I love that you, you've equated it to building a business because you are creating an entity together.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the roles in this entity and their their responsibilities and it's great to carve out clarity within this entity.
[SPEAKER_05]: I also love this notion of stepping forward instead of testing your partner.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think earlier on a relationship, we're constantly testing the person we're dating.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, are they going to pass this test?
[SPEAKER_05]: Are they going to say the right things?
[SPEAKER_05]: Do the right things?
[SPEAKER_05]: But we also have to understand that person has no idea what the right thing is in your mind, because they cannot read your mind unless of their psychic, then they should absolutely do that.
[SPEAKER_05]: But stepping forward is a contagious act.
[SPEAKER_05]: Where if you do it and the right person wants to do the same, you just keep meeting each other and moving forward together.
[SPEAKER_05]: My last big takeaway is revealing.
[SPEAKER_05]: This, I haven't heard it put in this word before.
[SPEAKER_05]: We talked about vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_05]: We've talked about open communication, speaking your needs, but revealing to me actually paints it in a more romantic way that you are.
[SPEAKER_05]: showing a part of you that maybe you haven't shown other people.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the more we can reveal who we are, the closer we can feel to a partners.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I really appreciate you putting that in my vocabulary because I think next time when I have a check-in with my partner, it's not a check-in anymore.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a revealing party.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a real party.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think this like showing up is contagious and this constant showing up of of the be the partner you want to be essentially and you know at that point you'll either let someone rise up with you or you know if it's really not the right fit it's not for every either and that's the thing that it can save something that is going down a bad path or it can help you to clear on you know the path for you.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much Nate and Kaylee for writing this book and also speaking from your experience because I think it just gives us so much more weight when you can say we've lived it, we've been there, we've survived it and this is what we came up with something that really works and to something we all look for is models, examples,
[SPEAKER_05]: ways that we can do relationships in a way that makes sense to us in a modern day.
[SPEAKER_05]: So thank you for paving the way for that as well for people who want to get their hands on your book.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm guessing it's available wherever books are sold and anywhere else more direct.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they can go to 8080marriage.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's our website information on the book is there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also have a newsletter in a free epic date night for those who are further down where they have to do date nights.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instagram as well at 80 80 marriage love it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well thank you again for coming on the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think again this was so great for people at all stages of relationships to get the wheels turn again.
[SPEAKER_05]: See what in 80 80 marriage can look like and if you haven't done so yet subscribe to the psychology of relationships today so you don't miss an episode and we'll see you all next week.
[SPEAKER_05]: Bye!