[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: Money has a way of seeking into every corner of a relationship, date nights, living arrangements, future plans, even how we argue or apologize, and yet it's one of those topics couples avoid the most, not because they don't care, but because money brings up so many emotions, fear, pride, guilt, pressure, hope, sometimes all it wants, and here's the twist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of the tension isn't really about money at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about the psychology behind it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Behavioral research shows that we don't make financial decisions rationally.
[SPEAKER_00]: We make them emotionally.
[SPEAKER_00]: We rely on in great money stories, automatic habits, and cognitive shortcuts that feel true even when they're not helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of us chase security, some chase freedom, and some avoid the topic altogether because it feels overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when two people with different instincts, histories, and motivations come together, the money conversation becomes a mirror for everything underneath the surface.
[SPEAKER_00]: The values, fears, power dynamics, and expectations about the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we're sitting down with Vermeat Saty, that Flick's host, best-selling author, a creator of Buddy for Couples, to help us unpack what's really happening when relationships get financially tense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rameat breaks down four muddy types, how different earnings styles and financial habits shaped relational dynamics.
[SPEAKER_00]: and why the fight is almost never about the bill, it's what the bill represents to each person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when partners understand the emotional meeting behind their money behavior and create a shared vision, they aren't just managing finances.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're building trust, intimacy, and a foundation, struck enough to support the rich life from each teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: what rooted in intentional choices, allied goals, and psychological safety.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember to go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and leave us a rating and review.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if this episode helps you understand your old buddy story better, drop a comment and let us know.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the psychology of relationships in your listening to an episode that might change the way you approach love and buddy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy!
[SPEAKER_02]: So happy to have you join us for a meat safety.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, it's crazy to see you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get why I feel like we're in person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just found out you really are down the street for me, but we are virtual.
[SPEAKER_02]: So happy to have you on our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're so excited because, you know, I think money for couples is such an interesting topic, especially when you go from really thinking of yourself as an individual and then combining forces.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we also know that money is such a hot topic for divorce.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could always be like jarring to think about at the start of a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess like from your perspective, like how do we start to make that shift?
[SPEAKER_00]: That we think of ourselves as a unit, even if we maybe aren't there yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: I went through the same shift myself when I was single met my now wife, we were dating, got engaged, and went through a big process talking about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: So in many ways it can feel like you may be losing part of your own identity.
[SPEAKER_04]: Your independence, your ability to buy whatever you want, and no one questions you or checks over your shoulder.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I will reframe it in a totally different way.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not losing my independence.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the first thing you need to shift your perspective is a shared vision.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I will tell you, I speak to couples every week on my podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: They come on, they share actual numbers, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, sometimes millions of dollars net worth, almost no couple has a shared vision.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why they end up fighting about $50 at Target.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like $50.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not changing your life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's actually pointless minutia to fight over.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're fighting because they don't have a shared vision.
[SPEAKER_04]: What is our rich life?
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we like to spend money on?
[SPEAKER_04]: Or even that culture in our family, we are debt-free.
[SPEAKER_04]: We eat out at a great meal every Friday.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we wait to take a beautiful holiday to see our grandparents every December.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whatever that culture is, that's the first.
[SPEAKER_04]: You need a shared vision, and the second is you need the systems to support it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not enough to just be like, we should try to do better.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's just words, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't like just words.
[SPEAKER_04]: I need systems.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that means a monthly money meeting.
[SPEAKER_04]: You need to write a count set up.
[SPEAKER_04]: And each person has got to own a little bit of the responsibility.
[SPEAKER_04]: Can't just be one, it's got to be both.
[SPEAKER_04]: You do those two things.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can start to make that shift to a shared future together when it comes to money.
[SPEAKER_02]: The shared vision, I really understand that concept.
[SPEAKER_02]: The issue we're facing as we marry later in life, we come in with our own assets, our own spending habits, our own way of viewing money.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the way I see it like, for example, my partner and I, I'm 43, he's 50.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are, yes, in this dating stage right now, but eventually we'll have to come to a shared vision of money.
[SPEAKER_02]: At what point do you have that discussion?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I still feel like we're separate entities with very separate ways of looking at money.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, in the personal finance world, people will legitimately tell you, you should talk about money on the first date.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, have you all ever been on a first date?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not trying to talk about my wife, I already, on a first date.
[SPEAKER_04]: What is wrong with you?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, you have to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because kind of weird, but there are some natural moments in a relationship where you can talk about money, it's not weird at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, when you're dating, you're just trying to get to know each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you're asking questions, but you're being thoughtful about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: What did you and your family do during summers when you were growing up?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm curious, but I'm also listening because if they say, oh, we went to Bali, I'm like, oh, that's an interesting childhood.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not like my childhood.
[SPEAKER_04]: We went to the public library.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, I'm piecing together little clues that I can.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do think you want to talk about money earlier rather than later.
[SPEAKER_04]: It demystifies it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's totally
[SPEAKER_04]: totally okay to want to understand your partner's views on money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes I hear people apologizing like they feel like they're being weird or overbearing to ask about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: You gotta drop that view.
[SPEAKER_04]: You should never apologize for wanting to know your partner's values with money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Money's important.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't apologize for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Money is what I eat, where I live, what kind of family structure you can create, and even down to who you are, it really amplifies so many things.
[SPEAKER_04]: So talking about it early is good, talking about it positively, proactively, and regularly is good.
[SPEAKER_04]: No need to apologize for it because money will become a core part of your life together.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are those questions?
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously it's not the Diverothi or I, but like what is a way to make talking about money feel a little more seamless and natural and easy, especially in those early stages.
[SPEAKER_04]: early stages, you're asking for clues, you're asking how they grew up.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're sometimes sharing some vulnerabilities, you know, one of the things I realized looking back is my parents didn't teach me anything about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I spent my later 20s, I'm actually been on a journey.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: You might have debt.
[SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people feel petrified about admitting debt, so it becomes this fear that builds upon itself.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, take out the flashlight, shine a light on it like this.
[SPEAKER_04]: You say, you know, one of the things that I did in my early 20s was I went out a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had a lot of fun, which was great, but unfortunately, I also racked up some debt.
[SPEAKER_04]: And looking back, I wish I hadn't done it, but it happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so for the last three years, I have made a plan and I've been paying it off.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm really proud that two years from now, that debt is going to be gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know I'm never going back.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's something that was really meaningful to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: What could be more attractive than somebody acknowledging a mistake they made that they caught in and that they have made a plan to fix it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love that approach, love how you can talk about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Of course, there are some more positive examples like the first time you take a trip together.
[SPEAKER_04]: You just go like this, you go.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I just want to be really open about money because I don't like it to be a secret.
[SPEAKER_04]: I like to be super transparent about how are you thinking about money working on this trip?
[SPEAKER_04]: I've got my thoughts, but I'd love to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't assume somebody's gonna pay or you're gonna split it this way or that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just talk about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I actually like to take the power back because often you'll hear people saying, what do you think in this very plaintiff voice?
[SPEAKER_04]: No!
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm powerful, so I might say something like, hey, I've got an idea for how I'm thinking about this trip.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking we could split it 50, 50 or I would be more than happy to pay for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was thinking maybe you would pay for that, but I'd love to have a discussion.
[SPEAKER_04]: In other words,
[SPEAKER_04]: come with the proposal first, don't wait for the other person to set the terms of the discussion.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can do it very well yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, very attractive for someone who is that confident talking about money and that good of a listener to make it a discussion.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm even going to take us a few steps back because that's like
[SPEAKER_02]: a little farther into a relationship you're taking a trip together.
[SPEAKER_02]: A hot discussion we have all the time is that first date.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who pays for the first date?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you talk about who pays for the first date?
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd love to get your take on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, first of all, what's the take here?
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you all say?
[SPEAKER_02]: I've changed my mind throughout the years, but I kind of feel like whoever asked out the person that person should just pick up the tap.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, what do you think, Julie?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I used to be in the camp of like really expecting the guy to do it in hetero relationships and being offended almost if they didn't, I think the stuff runs deep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I want to say I am okay with it being equal, but I do think there is that little feeling when it does happen that we've just been so conditioned on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this is a hop-up topic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me say this.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are like 10,000 podcasts that have episodes, a full episodes about who should pay on the first date.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: I lived in New York.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was single, went out a lot of dates.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was happy to pick up the tab.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could afford it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It made me happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was typically picking the places we went to.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, happy to do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll say two things.
[SPEAKER_04]: First off, while I think a lot of people who ask on a first date are happy to pick up the tab, I also think, you should think about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do I want to show up and how might I set myself apart?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, if somebody graciously offers to pay, fantastic.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm also thinking, wow, if I'm on the date whether the asker or the person who is asked, how am I going to set myself apart and sometimes a simple thing is to make the offer.
[SPEAKER_04]: or offer like, hey, that was such an awesome time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Next time when we hang out, I'd love to pick up the check.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, loose, easy, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_04]: But can I tell you what I think is even more important?
[SPEAKER_04]: Please.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is it that we obsess over the first date?
[SPEAKER_04]: I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we don't talk about the 10,000 nights afterwards.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know, I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's way more important.
[SPEAKER_04]: People obsessing about, oh, I'm going to this bar, this cocktail bar, this stuff, yeah, why?
[SPEAKER_04]: That is literally the least of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the least of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, do they want to even talk about money?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because if they're not willing to talk about money, that's a deal breaker.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's over.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do they have similar values as me?
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't have to like the same exact things I like.
[SPEAKER_04]: My wife, for example, loves self-care.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is her money dial.
[SPEAKER_04]: A money dial is a thing you love to spend money on and you would turn that dial up spend more.
[SPEAKER_04]: She loves it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not me, I'm not that into it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm perfectly happy with dove, body wash.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I love beautiful hotels.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love them.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know the exact room, the exact time of year to go, I'm obsessed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we don't have to agree on everything, but we do have to have a way of talking about it of creating shared values, of talking about where to our families fit in.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is a thousand times more important than who's picking up the tab on the first day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, we could not agree with you, Bore.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so much of dating.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first date is not actually indicative of the relationship, but I think that's why I said, like, I want to consciously be like, both people should just split it and it should be equal because that actually makes more sense to me of like, we're building this with someone and doing it together.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the problem with first dates in today's world is you're just going on so many.
[SPEAKER_00]: You may never see this person again.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have all these like, old tropes and just ways
[SPEAKER_00]: thinking that like that signifies of someone likes you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's where it comes from, even from women.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like how do we get out of that and just start thinking more of like building a life as a couple with money at the forefront?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I speak to couples and I have a lot of gender dynamics that come up on my podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't shy away from them.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love talking about them because they are deep.
[SPEAKER_04]: They are often obscured or implicit, but they are very real.
[SPEAKER_04]: Culture is real, gender is real.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like if you came into my house growing up, son of Indian immigrant parents, you would see things that you would not see in a white household.
[SPEAKER_04]: You would see different foods, different habits.
[SPEAKER_04]: You would see me reading a freaking spelling be book and absolutely dominating a spelling.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not an accident, that's culture, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's what my mom and dad helped us create.
[SPEAKER_04]: You would also not see me dead lifting because we didn't talk about working out as a family.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, culture, all these things.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I had a couple on my podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: They'd been dating a couple of years.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was extremely successful.
[SPEAKER_04]: She ran her own business.
[SPEAKER_04]: She made $200,000 per month.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he was just starting out.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was making a relatively small amount.
[SPEAKER_04]: His business was just getting off the ground.
[SPEAKER_04]: Fine, no problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: She had grown up with her parents around the dinner table, talking about Roth IRAs and compound interests.
[SPEAKER_04]: He had not.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, she's light years ahead in terms of education and luck and all kinds of stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yet, she still wanted him to occasionally pick up the check.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said, okay, what happens?
[SPEAKER_04]: You ever asked him to do that?
[SPEAKER_04]: She said, yeah, and then I said to him, do you feel okay doing that?
[SPEAKER_04]: He said, yeah, I'd love to pick up the check once in a while.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, what happened when they would go out, he would offer to pick up the check.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then she would say, no, I want you to put that away because I want you to contribute more to your retirement accounts.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hmm, so she was asking for him to pay, but then when he did, she wouldn't allow him to.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was putting him in an untenable position.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I listened to them, I hear them out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Both of them clearly respected each other, loved each other, but just had very different views than we had gender tied up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Guess what their conclusion was.
[SPEAKER_04]: She wanted to feel taken care of, but she also wanted him to build a habit of investing et cetera.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you don't what they did.
[SPEAKER_04]: Every so often before they go out to dinner, she would hand him her credit card at home before they go out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then he would pull it out and pay for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he was still in effect paying for dinner, even though it was her credit card.
[SPEAKER_04]: She felt taken care of.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was still contributing to his retirement and they created a solution that worked for both us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very creative.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're listening to this, a lot of people when that episode aired, they left comments saying, this is ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why don't they just act right?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, everyone has their own unique way of dealing with money as long as it is fair and it works for both of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can be creative, but we shouldn't ignore gender roles.
[SPEAKER_04]: we shouldn't ignore what we feel even though sometimes our feelings may lead us astray.
[SPEAKER_04]: So all of these things come together.
[SPEAKER_04]: The numbers, your feelings, your gender, your culture, your age, and we got to figure out how to create this beautiful tapestry of a rich life together.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that example because we talk about doing dating and doing relationships and making it your own.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because you make it work with your partner doesn't mean it's going to work for someone else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I like that you are basically normalizing the fact that you can create any sort of financial culture you want inside your household.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in that example, you brought up something you talk about in your book, which is this idea of contribution.
[SPEAKER_02]: If someone's not contributing financially, they feel like they need to contribute in other ways, but is that equal to the financial contribution?
[SPEAKER_02]: What have you seen from different couples on that?
[SPEAKER_04]: It is so interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: The seabird is contribute.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in personal finance, it is always the lower
[SPEAKER_04]: with contributing and they will use the exact words like I don't know if I'm contributing enough how do I know if I'm contributing enough it's very anxiety written yeah and we have to slow down take a deep breath and understand why and then we can start to combine all these things to create our vision but if you are earning less you're not contributing less you will simply might be contributing
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is something I am personally struggling with right now actually because I went from being like an equal contributor with my partner, like usbaking around the same money to now making less than him because of change of careers and all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like in my head I still want to maintain like the equalness because most of my identity before him was being someone that was like financially pretty secure and felt good about things and now I'm like I'm struggling to maybe even take help a little from him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though we are like three and a half years in like you know getting to the place of a very serious partnership but it's still a struggle for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: First off, thanks for having the courage to share that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just, I love the more open we are about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Man, women, young, old, wealthy, not wealthy, I love it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I've seen so many couples in different stages that at this point nothing phases me.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I appreciate the courage.
[SPEAKER_04]: When you say that there was a career change, was it you making a switch or your partner?
[SPEAKER_00]: I made a switch, so left something more full time to pursue this, which is hopefully eventually we'll get back to where I was, but there is that gap of starting something more entrepreneurial.
[SPEAKER_04]: What you said really stood out to me a couple of things, one is the identity, you know, I'm used to being financial contributor.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm used to that as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wonder what your identity is now, because you used to be single, now you're in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: What changed in that identity shift?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's another person there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sharing a life with someone, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very different.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and you call them your partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: So in a partnership, sometimes one of us takes a step back or something happens and our partner, a good partner,
[SPEAKER_04]: steps up, to take that gap over and they're happy to do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Other times, you step up in a different way.
[SPEAKER_04]: So a partnership doesn't mean we are both running at the same pace.
[SPEAKER_04]: It might mean one of us is better at something, one of us is better at the other.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the first mental shift I would make.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the second reframe I would make is right now what I can hear.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're in your own head.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not contributing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I used to do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I, I, I, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the power of having a partnership is it's about we.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what are we doing together?
[SPEAKER_04]: What is our vision?
[SPEAKER_04]: What's our rich life?
[SPEAKER_04]: What are we working towards?
[SPEAKER_04]: And how do we each fit in that together?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not going to be the same puzzle piece.
[SPEAKER_04]: That would be pointless.
[SPEAKER_04]: But as long as we fit together, then we have a rich life together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's like the shift that's hard for, I'll speak for myself, but I think a lot of people, especially when you meet people later in life and you've had all this time on your own, you actually mentioned your book too that I found really interesting that women are like conditioned to want to have like a nest egg to like save in case like something goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I,
[SPEAKER_00]: 100% on like contradictory it's like I want my partner's support and help and contribute together but I also have this like deep-seated fair that like I'll be left behind with nothing even though I don't see that happening but it's so conditioned and I can remember like the conversation like with my Bob like to this day of just like being on a beach and being like make sure that you have your own stuff in order and like you're financially secure so I know where it comes from
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you balance all that and like at least assuring that other people have this too come up for them?
[SPEAKER_04]: Many, many people have deep conditioning.
[SPEAKER_04]: For example, men are conditioned to be providers.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is how they define themselves and when they cannot provide.
[SPEAKER_04]: For example, when they get sick or when their female partner starts to earn more than they do, I ask them if you're not a provider who are you, you should see the looks on their face.
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: They've never even contemplated who they are if they're not a provider.
[SPEAKER_04]: Similarly, many women have received the message that they should have a secret account.
[SPEAKER_04]: They should have some money kept aside somewhere.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you mentioned you heard it from your mom that's a really common conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some have seen it in a movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Others have heard a grandmother sharing something bad that happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: So can we talk about secret accounts and putting money aside for a second?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, please, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is so common.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I will say, if you walked in right now and you told your boyfriend or husband, I have a secret account, they would be very surprised.
[SPEAKER_04]: Part of that is a lot of men don't understand the historical context behind the lessons that you learn and that so many women are taught, keep some money just in case.
[SPEAKER_02]: So men aren't taught that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hell no.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm, interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is no analog where a man is told, keep some money just in case.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's not the implication, just in case you lose your job.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just in case your partner leaves you and you end up in a van alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Correct, yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: No man has had that message.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we don't understand that in our grand mother's lives, in America, they could not get a bank account without a mail partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is in our lifetime.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'll tell you what, I believe in each person having an account that only you have access to.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I do not believe in keeping secrets.
[SPEAKER_04]: A great, no secret accounts.
[SPEAKER_04]: We both know how our accounts are set up because our trust and our future is together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about the we versus the eye and the identity is of the we shifting to the we, but how do we really tactically do that with money?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I still can't get over the fact that like this is the money I've earned.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is money you've earned.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do we spend this we spend this money if we don't have joint accounts?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then how do I still feel that the freedom to spend my own money the way I want it to?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still very murky for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, how do you spend
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's just get really specific about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let's start off with a couple that is living together, but not married.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to combine your money.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I wouldn't recommend it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're living together, but you're not married.
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't combine all your finances.
[SPEAKER_04]: However, one thing you can do is to talk about your joint expenses and create a joint account for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let's talk about, if you and your partner are living together, let's just say your rent is $2,000 a month.
[SPEAKER_04]: and for easy math, let's just say that each of you earns the same amount.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you've got that, you've got groceries, maybe you both eat out four times a month, etc.
[SPEAKER_04]: You total it all up, you add in 15% for a buffer because you'd forget some stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Boom, this is how much we each need to contribute to our joint account.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Simple.
[SPEAKER_04]: You still have your own money.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can still do whatever it is you love to do it's no questions asked that you're guilt free spending but you also know that each month you have committed as partners to sending this money to the joint account.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's simple.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's get more complicated.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's say one of you makes twice what the other does.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you deal with that?
[SPEAKER_04]: So I have experienced with this because when my wife and I met I was making much more money.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we had to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Another way that you can do this is to do it proportion, so any joint expenses in this hypothetical example, I would pay twice as much.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that makes sense because I was living in an apartment in New York, my wife was living in a apartment we got married she moved in.
[SPEAKER_04]: If we split at 50, 50, it actually would not have been fair to her because she would have spent a lot more money proportionally than I was spending.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm making more, I should pay more if I want to live in this apartment.
[SPEAKER_04]: But eventually, when you get married, if and when you get married, let me break down how the best way to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have the exact account set up in chapter nine of my book.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have a story to that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll tell the diagram now.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, follow these steps.
[SPEAKER_04]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_04]: Great.
[SPEAKER_04]: You set these accounts up and I'll tell you what, we set it up this way and the minute we combined our finances, the next day, we felt more unified together.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was not his money, her money.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not enough to just talk about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You actually need the account set up.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like if you want to drink a lot of water, you need a big old water bottle, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: And suddenly you just start drinking water effortlessly.
[SPEAKER_04]: You need the systems to support it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So a couple that is married, my recommendation and the recommendation of a lot of research.
[SPEAKER_04]: You combine all of your money, all of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then you have your joint expenses, of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you also each have an individual checking account, individual savings account, and individual credit card.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in your system, your conscious spending plan.
[SPEAKER_04]: you both decide on a number that is your own money.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's no questions asked.
[SPEAKER_04]: You want to spend a golfing, buying a beautiful bag, taking care of your family, whatever you want to do, you can do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the joint money is for joint expenses, and your individual money is for anything you want, and your partner will never question you about it, because you've already handled everything else you need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: What about, like, assets?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you have property or stocks or savings even, like, maybe it's not even just income, how do you recommend that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause I think this is another thing I'm struggling with is like, I bought a property at the start of when we met.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had no decision-making in that, and he does, like, contribute, we live here now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also feel bad, like, splitting it 100% even because it was my call to make this property.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do I get either over that mindset of, like, making a fun at that way?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is there a way that, like, you would recommend someone that's coming into a partnership or marriage with these assets when one person doesn't necessarily have that?
[SPEAKER_04]: I've personal experience from this because we came into our marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had been running my business for like 15 years.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had been very fortunate.
[SPEAKER_04]: Business has been successful and I love to invest.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been investing since I was 14 years old.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I had assets.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I had one of the most nervous conversations in my life.
[SPEAKER_04]: So my wife and I, we created a Google calendar agenda.
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't judge, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're running a business.
[SPEAKER_04]: The business by partner.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He would definitely do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a merger.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got it, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: You got it, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got it, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: You got it, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: You got
[SPEAKER_04]: So I created this agenda.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was like a serious conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, when are we going to get married?
[SPEAKER_04]: My now wife, she was like, I would really like to be engaged by Q1 of next year.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, well, my God, she speaks in financial orders.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this one.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's the one.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's the one.
[SPEAKER_04]: We talked about kids, and I was like, if we did but we named our kids, and I was like, I don't want some little kid named Mike right around, like look at my skin color.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want Mike in my house.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we talked about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I said to her, I said, you know, by virtue of
[SPEAKER_04]: me running my business for 15 years.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been very lucky.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've worked hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've built something.
[SPEAKER_04]: A business.
[SPEAKER_04]: I built a portfolio and you know how I am with money.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't go and buy a Ferrari.
[SPEAKER_04]: I like some nice clothes and I like to travel but you know me but it is important to me that we discuss a pre-nup and I brought it up with her.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was one of the most nervous moments.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think proposing to her I was very nervous but a pre-nup I didn't know how she would react.
[SPEAKER_04]: she took it really well.
[SPEAKER_04]: She said why I didn't expect that, but I'm willing to learn.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we started having conversations about a prenapped, we got lawyers, and it was going pretty well until it got really hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I felt resentful because...
[SPEAKER_04]: I like to be very generous and I felt like these numbers are astronomical like how are we negotiating over this and my wife felt not listen to she didn't feel heard and so she at one point goes we should go see a therapist because this isn't working and she was right so we literally got on yelp and type therapist we walked to the closest one.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like two blocks away then
[SPEAKER_04]: And we went in there and this therapist was really good.
[SPEAKER_04]: She asked us a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: She asked this one question.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll never forget She looked at me and she goes, how do you see money?
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like I see money.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the easiest question in the world.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said growth like I could see the formula's Trinity study Compound interest I could see it floating in front of my eyes like some robot then she turns to my wife and she goes How do you see money my wife responds safety?
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like what?
[SPEAKER_04]: Safe?
[SPEAKER_04]: What the hell is that?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's like saying the word beef.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's the connection to money?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was such an opener for us to realize.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are seeing money completely differently.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I had done the classic mistake, classic...
[SPEAKER_04]: that all optimizers do, one of the four money types in my book, of jumping into the numbers too fast.
[SPEAKER_04]: For me, numbers hold meaning, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: But for most people they look at numbers and they see decimal places and some color, red or green, me, I look at numbers and I see a family trip to Disneyland.
[SPEAKER_04]: I see a beautiful apartment or the ability to take a trip and to fly our parents with us.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we were not connecting.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm sorry to give you this whole story.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was so pivotal in our relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that if you have property or assets, family inheritance, if you have anything of substantial value, you should do a pre-not.
[SPEAKER_04]: You absolutely should do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not as murky as people think.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not some asshole in the back of a chauffard limo with a top hat saying, fuck you, it's not that.
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe our marriage is going to last forever.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope it does, but in the rare case that it does not, let's make a plan when we are at our very best for what to do, so that we can decide and not the state.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is exactly what we did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: With the pre-dup, you have your assets.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you just keep those completely separate from what you went in with?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then anything, once you got married, was in this combined account, or did you deal with it a different way?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anything pre-marital is separate.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not co-mingled.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's in a separate account.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we have an agreement, of course, like any pre-nup, what happens if we were to get separated for any reason?
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, I like just being honest.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've always been very pragmatic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm going to die one day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Might as well talk about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think we're going to get divorced.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love my wife, more than anyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in the rare, rare case, that something happens, we have a plan.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just like you would have a plan insurance or anything that might go wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: You keep the money not co-mingled, it's separate.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a kind of a clear demarcation.
[SPEAKER_04]: But of course, everything we make while we are married, that's joint money.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's some exceptions with some business stuff and pre-marital assets, they still fall outside.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if we make money, that's marital assets, that's money that is ours.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's really important.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think sometimes with a pre-nope, you think it's gonna be yours and mine and we're gonna fight and have this right.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, remember, this is talking about stuff before the marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are married, that's marital, that's combined, that's the two of us together, which is exactly the way it should be.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to go back to something you were talking about earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: You told us that you were the optimizer and that's how you view money.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's such a big piece is that we all have these different personas when it comes to money.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like clearly the couple we were just talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: They probably had very different ways of viewing money and what it meant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the other money types and like how do you work together?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you are different from your partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: The first and most common of the four money types is the a voider.
[SPEAKER_04]: A voider is used a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid money.
[SPEAKER_04]: They'll often say things like, you're just better at money babe.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not really good.
[SPEAKER_04]: You had to find like, I don't even need to be involved because you take care of everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: And those are unconscious techniques to simply avoid taking on the responsibility of money.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've had folks on my podcast self sabotage their own relationship right before they came on the call because they did not want to talk about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very common, very common.
[SPEAKER_04]: I work with the voters.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll often ask them what do you get out of this and they always say the same thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: They say nothing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I gently push back on them.
[SPEAKER_04]: I say, you surely get something otherwise you wouldn't do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: and they think about it and then they become very honest.
[SPEAKER_04]: They go, I don't have to take any responsibility.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not accountable for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: If something goes wrong, it's not my fault, but I get to benefit from it.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're really insightful about their own behavior when pushed correctly.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, avoiders are really just kicking the can down the road and with money, time works against you, if you wait.
[SPEAKER_04]: But when you start investing and saving, it's like you've got a wind at your back.
[SPEAKER_04]: Time works for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, avoiders, there's a variety of techniques to get an avoider involved, probably a lot of people listening to this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Your partner is an avoider.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're like, how do I get them to want to care about money?
[SPEAKER_04]: Good news is there are lots of techniques to bring them in and get them to actually shoulder some of that financial burden, emotional load.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a voider.
[SPEAKER_04]: Next is Optimizer.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm an Optimizer.
[SPEAKER_04]: Optimizers can be good in the sense that I love spreadsheets.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love to plan, plan a Monte Carlo analysis for what'll happen 34 years from now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like all that stuff has brought me success.
[SPEAKER_04]: The problem is that you take it too far and you become a boring freak.
[SPEAKER_04]: Second one is Frenchy, stop it and these people become unbearably cheap.
[SPEAKER_04]: We all know somebody like this How much does that cost?
[SPEAKER_04]: How much does that stop talking about cost?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I talked to people of millions of dollars on my podcast and they won't splurge for a dessert
[SPEAKER_04]: It's an affliction, and they don't realize that they have spent their entire lives looking through one set of lenses, money, cost, but you can still retain a sense of fragality and turn the page and realize there's more to life than that.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the things I'm most proud of is that I did not become this unbearably cheap person who only looks at the cost of things.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love to spend money.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love to be super generous.
[SPEAKER_04]: That took a lot of thinking and work about who I wanted to be.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's optimizers.
[SPEAKER_04]: The third is warriors.
[SPEAKER_04]: Warriors love to worry about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: They get benefit from it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I often ask them, do you want to worry?
[SPEAKER_04]: They go, no, I go, what do you get out of it?
[SPEAKER_04]: Nothing.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, tell me what you get out of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they say it gives me sense of control.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I often say to them, look at me, do I look like I'm worried about money?
[SPEAKER_04]: I got a big smile on my face and they say, no, I say so how can I be in control of my money?
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm not worried about it and they're like, the first answers are very fast all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you have more money than I do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, besides that, I didn't worry about money when I had less money.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had control, I didn't worry about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And really it comes down to this question, who would you be if you were not worried?
[SPEAKER_04]: and I help them disentangle that and create a new identity for themselves.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can be responsible with money, you can have a great time with money, you don't have to worry about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Finally, the dreamer, this is the most difficult money type, which is, they always believe that success is right around the corner, it's the next gig, the next deal, the next thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: They typically get involved with get rich quick schemes, they even have their own language, like I don't want to trade time for money, nine to five people or such suckers.
[SPEAKER_04]: I go,
[SPEAKER_04]: A lot of times they're nine to five people they're talking about have made more money than they have over the last decade just by having a nice job.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, here's the key.
[SPEAKER_04]: The dreamer is not reading my book.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're less interested in consistent, low-cost, long-term investing.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're just looking for the next big thing and it is really difficult to be a partner of a dreamer.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they simply live in La La Land.
[SPEAKER_04]: They are often subsidized, often they're partners of one making their money or they have bomb and dad's money.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if you were to leave for two months and they had to take care of everything around the house, they would actually probably make it happen, or it would all fall apart and they would be gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: Point is, a lot of times Dreamers also have an enabler partner, so really complex intertwined relationship, highly recommend speaking to a therapist, in general, but especially if you are in this situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, which one am I?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've followed to baby warrior.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think part of for B.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why I'm in warrior.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, part of it's like what I was sharing earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like an identity change that I'm like now thinking about things different.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what it has been more than that even is that like, I'm like, we're fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: The two of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: but what happens when we have kids, what happens when our expenses skyrocket and we need to afford a house and houses are so expensive and that's where the worrying starts to come in like the future projections.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I ask a couple questions real quick?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, why do you need a house?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you know this question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean honestly, I come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean as of what that bought a condo, I have thought about this a lot and I'm like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe wasn't the smartest move even though you think that's what you're supposed to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what you're supposed to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, listen, I got to talk about this for a second because a lot of people like wait a second to money guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rents, what are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I rent my wife and I can afford to buy a place today.
[SPEAKER_04]: We intentionally choose to rent.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I have made more money renting Yeah, or the last 20 years that I would have made owning a place.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I've lived in San Francisco, LA, New York in fantastic neighborhoods with great housing options.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why?
[SPEAKER_04]: In America, we have the sense of the American dream.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, what's the American dream?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very simple and almost childlike.
[SPEAKER_04]: Go to college, get married, buy a house, have kids, buy a gigantic freaking SUV.
[SPEAKER_04]: Fast forward, 40 years move to Florida, get skin cancer and die.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the life.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the jury.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: What a cool life.
[SPEAKER_02]: The jury.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so weird to Florida.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was at there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Get skin cancer.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a little ironic that all these people online are always talking to me about financial independence.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's your goal?
[SPEAKER_04]: I want freedom, and then I go, oh, cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what are you living?
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're all living the exact same lives.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like a suburban non- pedestrian, non-walkable environment, and the exact same lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow, that's quite funny that all these people who talk about freedom end up doing exactly the same thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe you're not actually being independent with your thinking, but rather doing what we were told.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, buying a house is one of those things.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not against buying a house.
[SPEAKER_04]: We will probably buy a house one day, but almost nobody, like fewer than 5% of people actually run the numbers on buying a house, meaning you understand true costs,
[SPEAKER_04]: You know your ratios, you know if your total housing cost TCO is less than 28% of gross, you know if it's cheaper to buy versus rent, you know how much you could make renting and investing the difference.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just to put it bluntly, living in cities like the three of us live in, in those cities, it often makes no financial sense to buy.
[SPEAKER_04]: You would be far better off renting and investing the difference because in a place like San Francisco, New York, LA, it's often more than two times as much to own than to rent.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, a lot of people listening, like, what the hell is this guy talking about?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like saying the sky is green.
[SPEAKER_04]: The fact that most people have never run a simple analysis on the biggest purchase of their lives tells you how little we actually engage with money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like money to most of us is literally just a bunch of feelings and vibes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my back doesn't feel good today.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I'll go buy a $3,000 mattress because back pain is important.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you should spend whatever you can on your back.
[SPEAKER_04]: No!
[SPEAKER_04]: how do you know if you can afford a $2,000 mattress or a house?
[SPEAKER_04]: You better answer that question with numbers.
[SPEAKER_04]: You better know your ratios.
[SPEAKER_04]: You better know buying this house will affect 20 years down the line in this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so you can see that I don't try to pander by saying like, oh, just do these two things and put money in and save me to count.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to raise expectations on all of us.
[SPEAKER_04]: You should be having better conversations frequently with your partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're going to buy a house, you better become extremely adept with amortization.
[SPEAKER_04]: You better know what that means and how it affects what you're going to pay.
[SPEAKER_04]: These are things that we need to take seriously.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you get these things right, these five or ten big things in life right, you never have to worry about buying a latte or getting cheesecake.
[SPEAKER_04]: That stuff is irrelevant.
[SPEAKER_04]: Those are $3 questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want you focused on the $30,000 question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I hear you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the one thing that I would say back though is even if you rent you still need a bigger space to fit more people if you're going to have a family The cost of children you can't get away from some of that like how do you Stop the worrying about the future for things that haven't even happened yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: It remains like do you need children?
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's the circuitry answer for this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's a bit of a feel like, do you need oxygen?
[SPEAKER_04]: Cause if you hold your breath for 12 minutes, you never need to worry again.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's fantastic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Really dark.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why did I go there?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, it's a great point.
[SPEAKER_04]: Check this out.
[SPEAKER_04]: First, we'll have you raise these questions and concerns with your partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: What a clue.
[SPEAKER_04]: When you raise them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you say, how are we going to do this?
[SPEAKER_04]: What's going to happen?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that the kind of general approach?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I suggest that you don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lucky for here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Try the different way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Try it because your fears are real.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I want to honor those I respect those.
[SPEAKER_04]: But simply ruminating on them and spinning over and over doesn't actually do anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: It actually becomes worse.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like calcifying in your brain.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let me ask you, what might be a different approach?
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine, for example, pick someone who's really competent with money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you have an example in your head?
[SPEAKER_04]: It could be a person in your life or a TV character?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think you have a visual friend that you and I both have.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought you were going to say your brother.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you said your brother?
[SPEAKER_02]: He is, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it's sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, he works in finance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fine, my brother.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's say your brother has the same questions.
[SPEAKER_04]: How would we afford to move in and have a bigger house because kids would he approach this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like this is where I go, though, is that with all these, this is probably what a lot of your listeners and readers go to is like, they just have more money, so they're all set.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where I go, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I probably have an asked either.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you notice how you just went right back to your old story?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Went right back to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I asked a question like how would your brother and you just went right back to that story?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's almost like a magnet.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can't pull away from this old intoxication.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: We got to stop that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Stick with me for a second.
[SPEAKER_04]: Forget your brother.
[SPEAKER_04]: Me, how would I react if I was thinking about having kids and needing to increase space, et cetera?
[SPEAKER_04]: How would I handle that concern?
[SPEAKER_00]: you probably have the confidence and tools set up that you're getting ahead of it and thinking about how your investing certain things that you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't know actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like making stuff up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is why I'm going to say I love it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's for revealing, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: If you don't know how to even approach it, or how somebody would approach it, then no wonder you're stuck.
[SPEAKER_04]: So sometimes the best thing you could do is what you said, ask your brother, ask other people who are competent and confident about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me tell you how I would do with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would first of all map out myself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's what I think my rich life is.
[SPEAKER_04]: My wife would have done the same.
[SPEAKER_04]: We would do it like an exercise together straight from the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then we would do what is our rich life, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I might use a little exercise the 10 year bucket list strategy, or we make it fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: What do we want to do in the next 10 years where we're going to have a rich and meaningful life experiences things like that?
[SPEAKER_04]: One of them might be having kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, under kids, what do we need if we have kids?
[SPEAKER_04]: And just brain dump it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: You could say we need a crib, we need this, we need that, we need everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Write it all down, there's no bad answers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then you go through and you go, hey, let's talk about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then I would start to approximate the cost.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, well, if we want this size house, what are our options?
[SPEAKER_04]: If we're trying to live in San Francisco, those houses go for a minimum of, I don't know, three million bucks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, the monthly payment on a $3 million house is gonna be XYZ.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that affordable for us?
[SPEAKER_04]: So will it be affordable in three to four or five years?
[SPEAKER_04]: If the answer is like, clearly know, that's okay, except reality because in order to live a rich life, you gotta be honest with yourself and honest with the people around you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you go, maybe we're going to move to this place or that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we don't need that big of a house.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you start to talk about it by the end of a series of conversations.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't need it all at once.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I always want to keep these conversations relatively short.
[SPEAKER_04]: Declare victory, go home, give each other a hug.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll talk about it again next week.
[SPEAKER_04]: By the end of this, I would have a rough plan, and that would tell me how much do I need.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what I've done there is I've acknowledged my feelings, I'm feeling anxious, I'm worried, but I got to get away from just feelings.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've gotten into the numbers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is the number one message I would say for everyone, creating a shared vision of a rich life is the primary thing that couples are missing, but to get there, you can't only depend on your feelings.
[SPEAKER_04]: Feelings are real.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of attention we need to spend on those, and also we've got to talk real numbers.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good plan, especially for Julie.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's really good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you are in your feelings, but then if you can break it down into numbers, you can probably see the reality of what you're working with.
[SPEAKER_04]: Julie, sometimes I speak to couples in both situations.
[SPEAKER_04]: I speak to couples where they're in debt and they're spending more than they make.
[SPEAKER_04]: Basically, nothing has caught up with them yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't really care because they still have a roof over their head.
[SPEAKER_04]: They still have cable.
[SPEAKER_04]: They have cell phones.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's still big deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: At least as far as they think, me, I'm looking at their numbers, I'm about to have a stroke.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm freaking out because I can see the numbers and I know the math and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what I do is I give them like a crystal ball.
[SPEAKER_04]: I fast forward for them and I show them how much they will have when they are 40, 60, 65.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can show them the math and it's pretty close to accurate.
[SPEAKER_04]: And suddenly, you know, a lot of them realize they're going to be living on $40,000 a year when they're 65 and it freaks them out.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just had this conversation last night.
[SPEAKER_04]: They told me they eat out three times a week.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a magic rule, remeits rule of eating out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whatever people tell me they eat out, triple it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they tell me three times, I'm laughing in my head.
[SPEAKER_04]: I go, oh wow, that's so interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we map out every single day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Turns out, guess how much they eat out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nine times, like magic.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm showing them how much they're eating out and what it's costing them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't care if you can afford it and you love to eat out or you love a beautiful cashmere coat.
[SPEAKER_04]: Spend it, I love it, but they couldn't, and they would have lived on very little money.
[SPEAKER_04]: So their feelings are not correlated with reality, but I also really talk to people who have millions, and they worry about money.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they think if I just have to keep it moreover.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you're in this exact situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's okay that you have these feelings, but it's not okay to simply repeat them over and over.
[SPEAKER_04]: You've got to add that beautiful layer of numbers, which will change the way you look at them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's taking me to some takeaways with this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that like even a day date?
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about all the time, like just rumored a day day good saying only of the fail eggs like is it going to get you to the relationship yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing the same thing with money and it just shows you like how little we all know about our finances like you with some
[SPEAKER_00]: really shocking ones in your book about how 50% of couples don't even know they're income like that's wild and I think we're just like not you know like I think money is such that topic that I know for me I feel like I haven't been as literate as I could be on it so I think this is a really good conversation whether you're single, whether you're looking to merge and I think sometimes too like when you're living in the now like everything
[SPEAKER_00]: seems good and it's going smoothly, but these changes kind of almost force you to think about it differently and like where do I want to go in my life?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's all really positive if you can look at it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm really glad that we're able to like reframe this and I really
[SPEAKER_00]: what I'm going to do with my partner is your exercises and like visioning this rich life and I like what you say of like I'm not going to tell you not to like have you know spa days like if that's important to your rich life like do that you just need to account for it and think about more like where you're going with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel honored, honestly, that you're going to do these.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd love if you stay in touch.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd love to hear how it goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that sometimes so many of us don't feel confident about money.
[SPEAKER_04]: And for me, the biggest source of confidence comes from competence.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have learned the language of money.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just like I'm sure you talk about going on many dates, you're going to learn so much about yourself, you become competent, which is a lot of times where confidence comes from.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've become competent, everyone can.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is just a very simple language.
[SPEAKER_04]: We all intuitively understand it, but there's a few terms we need to know.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when it comes to combining with your partner, what I love about it is yes, there are numbers, but so much of is more.
[SPEAKER_04]: artful.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like painting.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can choose if you want to do it a little heavier on the paint or lighter.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so intuitive.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you can choose how you want to show up in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you want it to be really rigid and everything's governed by a spreadsheet?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you can do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you want it to be loose with a few shared goals?
[SPEAKER_04]: You could do that as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you gotta understand the basic rules of how money works and how to communicate with your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a beautiful conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: My takeaway is money is tied to meaning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, growing up is an immigrant.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always thought people had the same ties to money.
[SPEAKER_02]: The same relationship, which is scarcity, which is safety, which is it's going to run out at some point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just make as much money as you can and save as much as you can.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now realizing that everybody has a different relationship to it and what it means to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: creating space for my partner to really share like his relationship to money is also very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think having these open conversations is not just about money, it's about the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really think this can bring people closer, just opening up like we're so good about being vulnerable and
[SPEAKER_02]: Many other areas now, this is one area that I think I would need to explore a little bit more because I'm just not as vulnerable there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the one last takeaway I have from all of this is that everybody has financial friction in their relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody is smooth sailing, no matter how much money or how little money they have.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we don't need to feel alone in this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think if we can talk about our
[SPEAKER_02]: solutions with our friends and our family, then we can crowd source a lot of this information and competence, as you were saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of feeling like, oh, I need to figure this financial part out, you know, just a two of us, which feels very daunting at times.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's such a pleasure.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm really wishing both of you and all your listeners the best having these conversations.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a, you know, you get over the hump and you realize, oh my god, we're creating something together.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is our rich life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our rich life for us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody else really has to have to say, we get to decide what we want to do with our money.
[SPEAKER_04]: What else could be more fun than that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And where can people get your book?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think everyone should get their heads on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_04]: My new book Money For Couples.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's out now.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can get it at Amazon Barnes & Noble, any indie bookstore, any public library.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love all the places to get the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you can hear me speaking to real couples every week on the Money For Couples podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll link it all in our show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Remy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to have this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now we have a lot of action items to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a lot of action items to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll see you all next week.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.