[UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the horror-hounds podcast where the lore hounds your guides to timey-wimey penny-wimey.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Alicia.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Mark from Nevermind the Music.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is our coverage of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to dairy on HBO Max.
[SPEAKER_01]: Season 1, Episode 8, your hair is winter fire, January Embers.
[SPEAKER_01]: You added words there too.
[SPEAKER_03]: You added words.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's winter fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't supposed to read the entire then compose.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's implied.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to get into contact with us and write the rest of the poem for us, send an email to horror at theloorhounds.com or add to our discord server from the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you like what you've heard and want to support us again, add free bonus content.
[SPEAKER_03]: Check the same link tree for our Patreon and supercast subscription options.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're back one more time for our, I guess, our, I guess, our awakening episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like Pennywinds, um, lot of stuff here, lot of stuff here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alicia, you have a lot of notes here, so I'll start with you on how it takes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, I mean, I thought that I do think the episode seven was the peak of this series, but I thought overall this was, um, a great finale, you know, I went in like, because you and I did our rankings.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why guess Mark, you did your top three before this, and I can assume this made it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we did our ranking episodes before I could watch the finale of this, so then I was questioning, does my ranking change at all, watching the finale?
[SPEAKER_03]: And, and I don't know, to be honest, my ranking changes, like every 20 seconds, like, yeah, you just got to stick with it at some point.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I greatly regret it half of it afterwards, but the order, I mean, but, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's still that this is one of the best shows that I have seen this year.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do wish it had run late September to early November.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like apparently it's done very well, by the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's got good ratings, good viewership, and it's been growing per episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a good thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good sign for season two.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know why they wait too long to agree like these things these days.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lates have tempered the early november the cultural talking point at wood event.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would have been wild.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know why they did this is a holiday show Yeah, I mean, I know I'm assuming how to do the strike and that delayed everything and then they're like well, it ends on ice, but still Right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a frozen lake everybody
[SPEAKER_03]: it happens.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ice happens.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have here in the notes and this is over at this down as I was watching the scene where they were arguing over it and then it became more and more true as it went on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dagger equals the one ring confirmed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, yeah, all of the troops, I mean, not in a bad way, like if you're going to copy copy from Tolkien, Stephen King does copy from people and people copy from Stephen King.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look, it's changed your things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And who hasn't copied the one ring?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, look at Harry Potter.
[SPEAKER_02]: They got that going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they're all the everybody's copy and the one ring.
[SPEAKER_03]: Emirates copy each other and Tolkien's obviously one of the,
[SPEAKER_03]: No, best prototype to cock you, copy from her, but I do have to say Pennywise won up to list that, which I didn't see coming with principal puppet principal puppet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even think about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Was it one time it was an all time girl?
[SPEAKER_03]: And anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, watch.
[SPEAKER_03]: interview the vampire.
[SPEAKER_03]: The list that has his own puppet kill, which is also iconic, but this is another level.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's not get him.
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes mimic his voice like that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, that's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what made it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a little better than we'll start.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_03]: And um...
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... the visuals this episode were great creepiest train of floating kids i will definitely remember uh... some of the you know running around on the ice be as a bit running around on the ice you know like okay we need to talk about staging here guys uh... again
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, that's that's probably my biggest gripe about the series about the series overall, but it's overall, you know, I loved this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got richy back with the middle finger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I love how they've been updating the posters.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you guys see this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the first poster they released was the, what we thought was going to be the losers club in the first episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: and then most of them died so then they replaced them with what actually became the losers club on the poster and then the poster they released for the season finale was just Marge, Ronnie and Lily we will have been taking a while
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but yeah, I loved that this episode finally, they could have done this earlier from my perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: The adult losers club came together, like yay for the kids, always here for the kids, but I'm at a point in my life where I'd like to see adult friendships, and so I've been waiting for this group.
[SPEAKER_03]: We find they got Rose, Daniel, Charlotte, Lee Roy, Dick, and Hank who've been set up as like the trust
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, it's just ultimately like, it just just showed that it's, it's, it's a show about many human topics like universal insecurities.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love to when Pennywise came out and was like, the fool, the freak and the failure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's true because these are universal insecurities we all have, and Pennywise knows how to play us like Fiddles.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he knows that those are the levers, so that's a mixed metaphor.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, knows the place like an organ.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those are the levers that he can pull to make the music.
[SPEAKER_03]: But question, so Mark, you said, you recited the Winter Fire poem that obviously lent the title.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's name.
[SPEAKER_01]: You left out the word eloquently when you were just going to say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: eloquently.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought that was always implied.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously that refers to, you know, full spoilers here for the whole show, obviously the refers to Beverly at the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you guys think there's another meaning to that title of this episode?
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's a dagger right like the dagger looks like a fire in the distance of all this windry weather that's what i thought okay it makes sense to me how about i don't know like my answer is i don't know it's a strange because it's a little obviously we have a bed
[SPEAKER_01]: 20, 20 year old Beth at the end there who's supposed to be 12, but like we or or or nine or something whenever her mother passes, but this is the year before and all breaks out in the first movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so oh, we're going to 1980.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So and honestly, like I thought that she did a good job,
[SPEAKER_01]: sort of plot based more than it's thematic based right so like connecting it directly to
[SPEAKER_01]: to bear if so I can't help but feel like there's some kind of other metaphorical aspect of this title because even even naming it after the dagger um i don't know this feels feels a little winters heart to me a little uh robber Jordan novel where i'm like i guess that title makes sense without necessarily telling us a whole lot it's interesting though because i think what what this title does more than anything is signal to book readers
[SPEAKER_01]: what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it gives us something before we've seen the episode, which is an interesting, like, has kind of more effect than any lasting effect, once you've seen the whole thing that makes you wonder about that at the beginning of the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's first thing I did when I turned it on was look at to see what the title, because in my case I'm taking notes while I'm watching it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was an inch that colored the hour I was watching, which is, which is
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or maybe not interesting, depending on- Well, and I have to say, I've seen the title and also knowing that people had seen a glimpse.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess they showed in a trailer or something, a screen of that final Juniper Hill moment that we saw from 1988, and people had been hypothesizing that that was young Beverly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, we'll wind if we see somebody that might have been young Beverly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, in like a trailer, there was a glimpse of this scene that we caught the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they just boil in their own show all over the place.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's, it's, it's spoiler proof.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not about the spoilers.
[SPEAKER_03]: They put the spoilers in the title.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well,
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot I liked about this episode, probably a lot of the same things you all liked about this episode, and predictably there's a lot that I didn't love about this episode, but here's the crazy thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: for all the complaints that I will get into about how could this happen and the town's people when Mike Hanlin is doing all of his research about the history of dairy?
[SPEAKER_01]: How was there not a existential dread missed like fog that occurred 27 years early that that is not in his notes?
[SPEAKER_01]: How did the disappearance of all these kids not end up in his notes?
[SPEAKER_01]: How did they none of them remember it?
[SPEAKER_01]: For all of that, for all of
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, but how if, oh, no, no, at least.
[SPEAKER_01]: She remembers it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a weird thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: She got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't even fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a long ass sentence.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, but you are, but you're saying things that I don't think are true.
[SPEAKER_03]: But go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then that's why it's, it's, it's very, very important that you listen to, to the rest of my sentence here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I need to make damn sure now I don't put any periods in only commas.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it maintains one, one sentence comma for all the complaining that I have been doing and will do about how preposterous it would be that March would be Richie's mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: This might not be a prequel series.
[SPEAKER_01]: This seems to be a sequel series.
[SPEAKER_01]: The things that happened, okay, that's the end of the sentence, the things that happened in this may not have actually happened in the backstory of the films.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like what they've created and it's kind of blowing my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: What Pennywise is suggesting, and we can talk about whether this feels like it's cohesive with Pennywise's, Pennywise's sort of power set, so to speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: What he is suggesting, and then what the conversation with the kids at the end is possibly suggesting is that he's essentially going back in time and changing time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're seeing, I think, I think they're telling us, is not the backstory of the films, but a sort of secondary parallel backstory that these things that I'm like, well, why wouldn't
[SPEAKER_01]: Margaret Tozier, remember any of this crap?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe that version of Margaret Tozier that we see in the books and possibly possibly the novels isn't the one that actually had this experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it didn't happen this way that this is actually kind of a sequel series and they say chapter one at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Chapter two, yes, it's happening in the past, but it's also kind of happening in the future in the sense that that passed.
[SPEAKER_01]: hasn't happened yet and so the end of my, my, my rant here is that they kind of may be pulled this off like I'm simultaneously frustrated with some of what I've seen, but like on the other hand, they've created a new lore bomb that kind of explains it all and at least at the very least,
[SPEAKER_01]: I am like, I'm here for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I am ready to see what this does because I do not know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they freed themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They freed themselves possibly of the trap of the prequel, of the trap of doing a prequel at all, of the trap of breaking your canon, all these sort of dangerous things that you can enter into when you do a prequel series.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of in the same way that I think back to one conversation piece when we were doing the wheel of time or just when anybody was watching the wheel of time that well this is a different turning of the wheel so it doesn't have to be the same because timey whiny right well well I I want to just interject quickly mark because I want you to answer this
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this I saw somebody who was a dark tower person on the internet say maybe this is a different level of the dark tower so there is
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some major, major spoilers to the Dark Tower that I don't want to get into, but that is an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Levels of the Dark Tower, I don't know that level of the Dark Tower would be the right, because I think level of Dark Tower is sort of almost implies worlds.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, meaning like Earth is one level of the dark tower, but I could be wrong on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something to the try again, aspect that Pennywise, you know, I spoiled this.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least you're cornered me and dispoiling this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanna be episodes you were, you were not in that there is that Pennywise like entity that
[SPEAKER_01]: seems to possibly exist in mid-world, which is the world of the Dark Tower, which is essentially a hub world, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen to my 30-minute rant about explaining the Dark Tower and the beams and all that in, like, probably episode three or four.
[SPEAKER_01]: that does suggest that Pennywise like beings, Pennywise power level creatures may be able to exist and go between dimensions.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know one of them went on a meteor or something and we don't know why or if they were imprisoned on it or whatever, but it is possible that a Pennywise creature could access the sort of
[SPEAKER_01]: metro station that is mid world and move between dimensions and possibly that means also move between possible realities because it's not just like Stephen King as things have blown up over the years and his world like you have to think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: This notion that Stephen King's books are all connected.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that's not that simple, though, because yes, we have, we have Dick Haloran, which is Dick from the Shining, obviously, as this episode really makes clear for folks that hadn't noticed that yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he co-exist in this world and in the Shining, but also,
[SPEAKER_01]: in the earth on the stand, the whole earth's population is wiped out in the 1970s.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that can't be the same earth that the novel Dr. Sleep takes place in which happens in the 2000s, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That can't be the same earth that the mist happens in when an entire like
[SPEAKER_01]: region of Maine or whatever is completely or like under the dome when this weird force field appears over this town in Maine that doesn't seem to be the same world that has some of some of the things appear to occur in the same multiverse but not the same world because they would be sort of incompatible events.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is that a level of the tower?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what we're experiencing here?
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a really interesting question and I'm sorry to bulldoze over what you
[SPEAKER_01]: Alicia, but I just wanted to like I'm not criticizing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of stuff that was really making my my lore brain and my fandom hurt while I'm watching this, but I think they kind of made it work and I cannot a could not have predicted that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was pretty sure that if you do some of the things I'm worried you're doing,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be pretty sad that you're squandering an opportunity and I will highlight those moments as we watch them, but gosh, I think they also kind of fixed it and made it at least
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, makes sense in a way that doesn't make sense like my brain can't, my brain can't handle it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, at least I do want you to, you know, I didn't want you to jump to conclusions about what I was saying, but now I would love to hear what you were gonna say or what you think of what I just said.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I mean, what I was saying wasn't related to where you landed, but um, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, I think I think what you're saying though is very interesting in terms of of this being a sequel rather than a prequel and I'm going to put a pin in that because I did request a special science corner.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're gonna dive into a lot of table y'all.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're gonna.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I maybe I should say math corner.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to dive into what imaginary time is, which Andy Musquietti he said on the podcast he pulled this from a reference in the novel it Yeah, so what were you okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you were you were taking issue with some of the the the the specifics of what I said what what what did I say that was wrong?
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I don't remember the beginning, but it was specifically the thing I jumped in on, I was saying, sorry, I was saying like, I started with, I had issues with the fact that none of the townspeople remember this event or and that my canland couldn't, couldn't find record of of this, that's about all the kids being taken, but I, I don't, I think that, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: Mike Henlin does find records of all these groups of kids disappearing in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't understand why you said that he didn't find that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no mention in any of the later timelines, like whether it's the novel.
[SPEAKER_01]: As if I look and you watch the movie more recently, you've read maybe you've finished in all of this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so long.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, sure is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a mass, it's always someone disappeared, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's this auger here, whatever at the end, where there's in this case, the black spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't, it's not like he's like, oh, there was an auger here and then,
[SPEAKER_01]: the entire school disappeared and there was a covered in this fact that surrounded it doesn't happen you know it very much did not happen and so I think what I'm thinking is remember that moment at the end of episode seven when they've won so to speak and it is down and then they break the what do you call it they shatter the pillar thing or whatever it was right the the space rock
[SPEAKER_01]: and Pennywise decides, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually awake again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if that's the moment at which things bridge, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not, but that could be a moment where like everything up until that point might have been something that Mike could have researched and, you know, we could quibble about how much Marge should be helping Richie Tozier in 1980s, but, but basically, like those things are canon to the book in the film and the sense that,
[SPEAKER_01]: maybe that all happened, and that was his cycle, and then all the stuff that happened in this episode might have been something that did not happen in the backstory of it chapter one and chapter two and the novel sort of, and that these things, this chaos of the the town being almost taken over and adults are you say like the adult club is doing stuff like I don't know that that always happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that didn't happen in
[SPEAKER_01]: the original timeline right our sort of stranger things model where we got the kid group hanging out and then the adventuring party of adults you know Murray and uh uh hop and joy yes hanging out like that doesn't maybe happen in the original timeline so maybe I don't know maybe they they haven't answered that but it could be that moment that he sort of broke
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't see a reason for that to be necessary because this whole situation with the kids was resolved in a day and all of the kids returned and none of the adults outside the children of return in group were involved in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would see this as being something that would be
[SPEAKER_03]: the mob massacre or the ironworks blowing up and stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are remembered because people actually died.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't come back at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: So those have to be accounted for in history.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's just going to be a difference of a pig in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious what people in the discord are going to think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because like it's one of them feels like bad writing to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other one feels like, wow, you blew my mind with a creative.
[SPEAKER_01]: with the creators, I mean, you and I had a bunch as an opinion on that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I mean, I think bad writing for me would be to, would be the opposite to, like not the opposite in terms of, I like what you're saying, we're gonna get into the whole time, you want me to set that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that if the writers were to forget that Pennywise makes people forget things, and suddenly there's records of kids disappearing for a few hours, that would be out of character for dairy for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the thing is though, it's not that they forget that things happen entirely.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that they get explained away, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that they get logical, like, you know, the black spot, how they're afterwards are like, an electrical fire, things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do think that there may be some market, especially the principle was brutally murdered, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just that it's disappeared.
[SPEAKER_02]: Principal murder, there's whatever we're on the other way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, maybe you could explain away the fact that he sent out, he sent home the upper class but right, and he only kept the lower class man in and maybe if that's all that happened, then you could say, oh, well, the parents just assumed like, oh, they've just all went to the lake for the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, uh,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I do think that the principal puts it over the edge of it should have been reportable, but I grew the mark that this is now an unstuck-in-time situation, and I'm thinking of it like that, like the Kurt Vonnegut slaughterhouse five style, Pennywise's consciousness was able to unstick from a point in time, and he was able to, you know, put his mind in his
[SPEAKER_03]: It, it's not that his mind is unstuck from time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's that he just lives in a different way of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: We should work a rival.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what they've done is turned
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of my potential.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that's really stupid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Didn't they read the novel into, wow, that's a really interesting change to reality in the next two, two seasons, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I don't know that that's the explanation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but it seems like that might be they've kind of bought themselves freedom potentially to, I think they could squander it, but to
[SPEAKER_01]: do their own story without having a lot of but but but but but but to every little thing they do because that gets harder the further back in time they go maybe right like everything you do butterfly effects right so
[SPEAKER_01]: they could have something they could have dairy get destroyed in 1908 at this point which makes no sense but it could be literally destroyed and it would kind of be able to make sense because in that timeline it would right whereas previously they could never do such like I think that this is a big big enough swing and Alicia very much just you disagree with me but this stuff that happens in this is a big enough swing to disrupt the
[SPEAKER_01]: like cohesiveness going from this era to the 1980s era and they've set things up to make that okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas whether it's the principle is one aspect and that's a pretty important aspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they're causing my like brain that understands this story pretty well to kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: Seize in frustration as I'm watching part of these scenes and maybe they freed me to not have to do that and so our conversations next season and in two years or whatever get to be more about well here's what happens in the book is not an interesting change
[SPEAKER_01]: which was more like our, again, more like our wheel of time discussions, less like the, except in less, sex scenes were involved, and then John, it was not.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I go to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: So sorry, too soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: John, it's only been a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I've said enough on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bravo to pull him that off.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's cool when the last five minutes of an episode,
[SPEAKER_01]: Surprised and or like the last 10 minutes make me surprised and
[SPEAKER_02]: put a huge caveat and retract a lot of criticisms for the rest of the episode i i i that is extremely rare i would say you're turned on yeah no i i i i i'm gonna keep my short because i want to get right into the episode but um yeah i thought it was great i like mark was saying like i think that you know we we we talk about you know we talked about this on our top 10 so i'll spoil that a little bit but uh game changers versus cliffhangers
[SPEAKER_02]: and to me this was a game-changing last episode right is is it fundamentally changed how we're watching the show and I think that's great absolutely I think that's great I think that makes it a much more interesting show than it would have been without that and I'm just really excited to see where they go in the past like could we see um
[SPEAKER_02]: Pennywise recognized Shaw from the future and then back off and then not attack him, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me like, oh, I didn't him to free me in the future so that I can come back here and kill these kids, the other kids, it's a, it's a whole thing like there's such a, such a time loop now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I look forward to the remake of it and it chapter two with the new lore in 2035.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's get right into the episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Dairy aka Silent Hill is my first section.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that Pennywise is free, a fog descends upon dairy, Pennywise uses principal Dunlavy's voice to dismiss the upper classment of dairy high school and summon the younger kids to an assembly.
[SPEAKER_02]: He uses the principal as a ventriloquist dummy and throws Dunlavy's severed head into the crowd before using the dead lights on every attendee and beginning their parade.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the turtle didn't help.
[SPEAKER_03]: The turtle didn't help with.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought I was thinking maybe Lily's charm race that was saving her, but the turtle costume didn't help that kid who sure got deadlighted.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the, I mean, Mark does do turtles in general help or is it just matured?
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I, I'm,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like regular turtles and massive help, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just every any time you see a turtle in it, or Stephen King in general, I always wonder is that a representative of a materin, you know, like a, you never know who's inside the mascot costume.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't mean like literally, but just, you know, cause, you know, it would be just like representative of like the turtles influence in the scenario, but it also could just be a turtle, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, I mean, what if they, what if they go, you know, you know, Pennywise breaks the cycle and is able to live past 19, I'm sorry, 20, uh, 2019 and, and, uh, 2018, what do I don't remember what he did?
[SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, um, and team that doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they have to redo that movie, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and, and the furries dressed as turtles are the ones who save the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think also, if we're thinking of sewers, like, okay, so let's say Pennywise gets out in one of these and then relocates to New York City.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's possible that like the, you know, in the same way that, like, sometimes the, the Val are decided to actually have to go to Middle-Earth and regulate and in the first age or whatever and actually fight the bad guys, maybe the turtle sends four turtles, gives them mutagen
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the sewers, they fight against Pennywise when they are mutated and they have a rat that mutates also and joins them and teaches them ninja skills and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's this whole thing that happens and actually this is in the same proximity as the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you're too young, John, but um, that was T.M.
[SPEAKER_03]: T.M.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're still making movies in chief.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they still made them means that it happened after he was right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you may be in the pocket in the one pocket where they weren't really a thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were like, I had older brothers too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they were more kind to them, but they would show them to me, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if they're not in cheesy turtle suits, then it's not the real thing with your anime to be realism.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, those things must have been talked about dedication to the craft, not comfortable for those actors.
[SPEAKER_01]: The...
[SPEAKER_01]: the I didn't necessarily think that the Bert the turtle was a student in the first episode or whatever we see see that because it's like they're doing the PSA it almost felt like it was a traveling roadshow kind of someone from the government almost but no this is like legit some guy just like or or young girl just lives in this thing every it's kind of wow like they're really they really got some Cold War paranoia if they
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, workshift or whatever on the associated student body is once a week to dress up as Bert the turtle to warn us about, you know, duck and cover and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not the turtles.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are the trappers I noted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, I didn't remember to check to see if that like is relevant and other sort of occurrences in the fandom.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're the mascot of dairy high school, but anyways,
[SPEAKER_03]: Are they trappers?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, like, I said like home of the, like that's the school's actual mascot.
[SPEAKER_03]: They trappers as in people who trapp animals, or what kind of trapp, like your trappers at type of turtle?
[SPEAKER_01]: Trapper, like a binder that you bring to school?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, a trapper, a trapper, I don't think it's a snapping.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it, I assume it means like for trappers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's up in Maine, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pennywise trappers, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I loved the Pied Piper reference or Pied Tubist reference, I guess, with that, like I already said, the visual was great, but just the whole composition of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love how the kids, I mean, this is, this is later, but the kids just don't give a fuck about any limb but Mike, when they say the other kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have to say after they had to give us one last glimpse of the Patty Cakes talking smack on the kids who had disappeared and were presumed dead who we know were dead, like Matti.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, get them, get them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just in case we didn't know if they were good guys or not, they had this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why was it the survivors of square central at school?
[SPEAKER_02]: They just survived a terrible fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they earned a home day Their parents are just like okay, don't care.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think especially because running is about to leave town I think that they're just kind of like dealing with the aftermath of it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, yeah, I think that's possible in the skip school
[SPEAKER_01]: they're just their friend just died there you know what I mean like there's so many reasons why they could be out of school yeah sure so do we want to talk about the fog now or is that later the silent hill uh... i guess let's talk about it i mean i am had some cosmic notes when we get into the starch yeah it's just the question of is this the mist it doesn't do what the mist does but it feels like
[SPEAKER_01]: you have to know what the missed is if you're making this show, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and the, yeah, it's all right, good.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, so Andy Musquiet, he said on the podcast, he's like, it's not the missed, but Alicia is saying, notes that later on, we'll talk about the March gets grabbed by the ankle by a tentacle, which is very, you know, referential to what we'll talk about is the
[SPEAKER_03]: And my theory is that they only have references to anything that's referenced in the its book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I suppose WB also has the rights to the shining and Dr. Sleep, I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Definitely not the Dark Terror series as we discussed that's an Amazon, so I think you know and probably not the missed so I think of Andy Muskeye to Wanted to wink at it, but legally can't say it's related to that What would you say anyways, right because that doesn't it's such a self-contained?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's, there's not much in that story and I haven't read it, but I've seen the film.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not much in that story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that you could directly, this is like what happened in that, like that probably is a parallel universe anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just sort of all it is, is that eldritch horror happens within this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's enough of a connection, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: To say, we would have to see actual monsters emerge from it for it to be clearly the mist, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning like monsters that are not Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't think we have that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into the loser's club, giving Chase, at least she ain't wanna read that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Marge, Ronnie and Lily, see the fog and follow it to a wall of posters of all of their classmates, including Will.
[SPEAKER_03]: At the school, they find the principal's head and decide to chase after Will with the dagger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Their bikes prove too slow, singular bike.
[SPEAKER_03]: Proofs too slow, so Marge hits them gas on a milk truck.
[SPEAKER_03]: when Lily drops the dagger she freaks out and won't let anyone touch it because of the influence of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ronnie and Marge pry it from her hands and they decide to share the burden of the one ring on the way to mortar.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so your brain went to where my brain went to.
[SPEAKER_03]: I also I love to that exchange with a car like it's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: My uncle Mike has a truck and he let you drive it.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, but I watched him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think kind of not much to say here maybe pretty straightforward.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, yeah, not a lot to say on this scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's mostly set up.
[SPEAKER_02]: So why don't we do the other set up scene before we take a break?
[SPEAKER_02]: Mark you want to read it?
[SPEAKER_01]: The grown-up's get involved.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pennywise taunts Leroy with Will's voice and Leroy takes it personally.
[SPEAKER_01]: He finds Haloran ready to commit suicide, but pleads with Dick to help him find Will instead.
[SPEAKER_01]: The grown-up's gather at Rose's house, where Rose prepares mature and tea for Haloran, which allows him to quiet the voices and find the dagger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rose tells the team that if they bury the dagger in a deadwood tree before it gets there, they
[SPEAKER_03]: So, question for you, Mark, the comment is between Nebel Towns.
[SPEAKER_03]: Does that track with the lower as you know it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that we have any specifics really about.
[SPEAKER_01]: where why me about whatever it is hits hundreds of or thousands of years ago right it's it this this series seems to put a little more clear geography because they're like the western wood is where he landed and we wondered several episodes about a go about whether
[SPEAKER_01]: where exactly the city of dairy built and it does seem clear that the city of dairy was then later built within the circle of pillars, but under Nebel street is that actually the place, the location, I don't know, maybe, but it's also felt a little bit to me like beneath Nebel street could mean Nebel street is how you get in and out, but I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I understood it to be like you go in through the well there or whatever, and then you're still walking
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of understood it to be, you know, this genre will appreciate this as a high millennial, like it's the shrieking shack, like you climb in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you go far enough, you get in the Hogwarts, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not like that's where that location of Hogwarts is, as you go through hogs of me and you go underground for a while, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe I've got it backwards.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they do, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't they say it also, it's his nest, the house, it's several times in the book?
[SPEAKER_01]: But is that was that where he like yeah, you're right about the walking through the sewer thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, where is his like her it's like
[SPEAKER_01]: real real nest because is it that is it sure clearly that house has been kind of infested so to speak, but also the place where they're all floating and all that is that kind of where like we don't know I don't think where it hybrnates clearly right and I don't know that it's not in the house is it directly below the house like 30 feet under or is it after a few miles of sewers right I don't have that I've mentioned before
[SPEAKER_01]: laid out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I interpreted it a little more roughly and figuratively that it would be under the the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's okay to interpret that's what they mean here, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that doesn't mean the GPS coordinates are literally the same as Nebel Street, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just who can say where it is, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although, gosh, there's some GPS he's stuff later in this episode that kind of
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to say, because you write that they go in and then they walk for a while before getting to where the kids are floating.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my new head cannon is they go, but yeah, then it is true that the house is in some ways, it's nest, like even in the dark tower series, you know, is questioning, is that it's house with the spider entity anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my new head cannon is that they go down, they walk for a while in one direction and it kind of spirals downward.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's how the sewer system works.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, that's, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, this is,
[SPEAKER_01]: The son of adult quest here feels very video game-y to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think one thing that I kind of thought was a little Iroly.
[SPEAKER_01]: This idea of the deadwood tree that they like, the fact that she knows with such precision that it's literally that exact point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because what trial and error happened over the hundreds of years to be so sure that
[SPEAKER_01]: you know it is a bit like you have been you have straight too far from the escort mission and now game over and you have to reload your save game i i i didn't love how again kind of gpsc they were about it will if they cross the river and get it to that dead would treat that means that it loses it's strength or it's too far it was a little bit too
[SPEAKER_01]: precise for the stress of this moment for anybody to assume that was exactly true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a minor quibble.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is all me, you know, before having even seen the end of the episode which, like, makes all this pretty relevant.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have another quibble with this tree later in the, the episode, though, we can get to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know if the two of you had any problems with that or if it felt, it just didn't feel very, like, natural to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it did feel a bit like the plot moving the characters rather than the other way around.
[SPEAKER_02]: They could have used it a little bit by showing her like, I don't know, triangulating or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, you know, I got to, you know, we got to get this far from, you know, all the other ones and this will break the circle or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a little video, I think that's a good way to put it, but once we got past this scene, I was like, all right, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Question for you guys, if they address that in subsequent seasons where, you know, they some aspect of the story tied to the tree does that make you feel better about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, some reason that they would know there's something special about that tree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, I mean,
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever that would be like running around with the dagger trying something or yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can always clearly they can explain whatever they want and now I might buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yet it's not even like I'm saying it's not possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just almost it's like speaking of video gamey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yet people might relate to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something about especially like Japanese RPG games.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there'd be like.
[SPEAKER_01]: it happened 427 years ago and this is the story and nobody talks like that like nobody speaks with such precision you just say it happened 400 something years ago right it felt like people don't talk like they're a 9th 9 year old who says I'm 9 and 612 years old right that's that's that's not a simple fraction you know what I mean like so it felt a little bit like that well it's exactly if they crossed river and get to that deadwood tree
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just it's a precision that people in these kinds of scenarios outside of military logistics don't usually bring to the conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not even that I'm saying it's there's no way and it has to be it's just it just comes off.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just awkward kind of like the 427 years ago backstory in a JRPG from the 90s.
[SPEAKER_03]: Question on another topic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you, why do you think that Dick blames Levi for him opening the box because as far as I can tell, that's not Levi's fault.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the entities' fault.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a myriad other things, but what is Levi where I have to do with that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't even know if it's the box, but it was the fact that he talked to Susquey that that really set all the ghosts to talk to him, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I created the noise and well, that wasn't
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, leverized director or lever I had bad before said go talk to the ghost and make then and have them tell you where the beacons are right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I wonder if he's he's blaming him anyway, even though that wasn't the direct reason he started talking to the ghost.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, he saved will, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: He saved
[SPEAKER_02]: He saved Lira's son, so he's like indirectly blaming him or maybe he's blaming him for Charlotte stashing Hank Rogan in the house, which is what you know indirectly led to the burning and the reason he needed to
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk to sesquie.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a bunch of like secondary reasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he's blaming Lee Roy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, I don't I don't know if it has to be logical, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he is holding a gun to his head holding a gun in his mouth like he doesn't He might just be lashing out at him
[SPEAKER_01]: And is he blaming Lee Roy or is he blaming like the military, right, and Lee Roy was his friend that was a sort of colleague that was advocating on behalf of the, you know, like, would he say the same to Shaw, right, because ultimately it was his orders that we're trying to get him to go do this thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, everything is Shaw's fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we should have told him that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we could adopt that across the whole can and actually, too, and other shows you're watching.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I think it's interesting the whole dick thing and we can, you know, we can talk about Overlook Hotel commentary later, but it
[SPEAKER_01]: It is interesting with this box, like putting aside the whole, because there's a little mini version of the whole, like, why doesn't he know more about all this, like, if you get to the shining, it's almost like a guy who's been through this, the first sign of an evil force inhabiting hotel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure he would work as a seasonal worker there, but, but,
[SPEAKER_01]: But for the fact that maybe this timeline has been altered.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do wonder that box that box never gets closed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the time we hear about the box in Dr. Sleep, many, many years later,
[SPEAKER_01]: he has learned how to control that again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so here the mature and root, which by the way, I thought was kind of cool, like they would name whatever it is, that this tea has been named after their understanding whatever that may be of the turtle.
[SPEAKER_01]: that that has stopped the visions for now right but he also learns to close the box eventually and that's left sort of like I assumed we would get that at some point here right but we don't and so we're just I guess supposed to take to mean he eventually gets that under control again because he uses that as a tool at least sometimes in his life unless he's explaining it to Danny I don't remember and Dr. Sleep
[SPEAKER_01]: that it's it's like I used to be able to do this and I lost that power.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I think that the this show is also blown it up into a more literal thing and less of sort of just a metaphysical thing anyway so it's hard to say how much any of that really matters but yeah thought that was interesting to think on in terms of his character arc long-term
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that is an interesting point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would take a haller and spit off.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that'd be fun, but I don't think that's the actor, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's great as the haller, and I would definitely watch that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The more crazy they put him through though, like especially if it's after this and before,
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say like the early 70s or whatever late 60s when he ends up at the overlook.
[SPEAKER_01]: The more crazy stuff they put him through though then opens up that.
[SPEAKER_01]: With this guy really then end up.
[SPEAKER_01]: dealing with what he deals with later questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if they do a spin-off, it needs to not be world-ending, cataclysmic kinds of stuff, maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but Ghost, Ghosty stuff, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shining kind of stuff, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, think of the scale of the shining story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even Dr. Sleep versus the scale of something like this right this the scale of this is larger than the scale of the it novel in terms of the implications of it the sort of world ending missed level implications we get Can I just say before we move on
[SPEAKER_01]: I like her at the end of the episode, but I do feel like Charlotte got misused in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't do a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I found myself missing her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She would be in a scene and they'd barely cut to her, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It would really, it was very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leroy was more of a sort of...
[SPEAKER_01]: point of view I guess in the adults that we followed and I like that she had a lot of a lot of role in the ending on their decision to stay but I feel like she had a lot to add as a character and I know that we three don't agree on whether there was some character assassination a few episodes later of her being written as naive but yeah I just I could have used some more and
[SPEAKER_01]: affect in energy and power to her that I think maybe would have given us a little something more from the adults in this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she could have been more involved in the planning, especially because I'm I'm I'm all for like, okay, lyrics the one with military training.
[SPEAKER_02]: He should be the one to fight the entity, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But but she could have been more involved with the planning and maybe it's just that Rose is the one with the knowledge and so she took that role right away and and that would make sense too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, it's tricky, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you make her more involved in the setup, then you're like, well, Rose is the one with the knowledge, why isn't she doing it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you're like, all right, well, should she be fighting it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, leave Roy and the rest of the military personnel are right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Makes more sense for them to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think they were kind of stuck here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she is, she does a lot this episode, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: She smuggles a,
[SPEAKER_02]: should be dead fugitive to Canada.
[SPEAKER_02]: She gets them in town.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think she does actually kind of make the point of like we have different skillsly right when she's like I'm not going near the sheep that that's on you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like you're in charge of you're in charge of the bullets, you know, and I think that that was a good way to say we are in charge of different things we are on
[SPEAKER_03]: Good point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's take a break.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll come back and keep going on this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are back.
[SPEAKER_02]: beep beep everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: The kids make it to Pennywise's parade of dinner, and he immediately gets the upper hand.
[SPEAKER_02]: He separates Marge from the group and calls her Margaret Tozier, but not yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: He explains that he can see all of time now and that he knows her son Ritchie and his friends will kill it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe things will be different if Ritchie dies with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before Pennywise can eat Marge, he freezes and will wakes up.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do want to address something that I hope that they talk more about in the future because this was for me the dangling thread.
[SPEAKER_03]: I finally satisfying.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, first of all, how many kids broke their legs from dropping?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not the thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I guess that was a thing, but also, um, so, okay, I did have this theory, so I'm obviously not bothered by the fact that she did turn out to be Margaret Tosher, but the fact that Pennywise said all this to her face and told her that she's going to have this son kid, this son kid, this son named Rich, who's going to go missing, if she remembers all of that,
[SPEAKER_03]: aside from any questions of whether she would be involved like wouldn't she not name her kid rich and think you know maybe that will prevent things but so I'm assuming she must forget about all of this at some point somehow I think
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is piece of evidence that this is not the same sort of timeline, that the Margaret Tosier in the backstory of the film probably never had this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I like about obviously, you know, I was pulling my hair out when I first saw this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, they're doing it, they're doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're right, Alicia, you were right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want you to be right, but I knew it was possible, you would be.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe that information, that contradictions sort of like, not only why was she name or kid rich, but like if she did have her name, name or kid rich, like she knows this kid is going to kill it maybe, defeat it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk to him about this experience you had as a kid do everything you possibly can to make sure remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, Mike Hanlin is able to force himself to not forget, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have,
[SPEAKER_01]: the the Leroy and Charlotte endeavor we are going to join this group of material and like there's so much reason to think that these folks would not be like why is Leroy not passing this on like why and will like like there's too many pieces of information on that shared yeah Leroy is dead but will
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the little dies in the back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, leave it in the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: In the movies, Lee Roy does pass the information on and will is dead in the movies in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not all this information, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, this is all suggest like not the things that happen after, you know, with this craziness with the mist and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it does feel like this version of Marge.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe has a rich and raises him in a different way, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because she knows, like, I don't know what that does to the, to maybe rich fails in that case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's not good for that loser's club to have adults because then they don't form the bond with each other as well, feeling alone, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all sort of wound up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do really like,
[SPEAKER_01]: even before I knew the twist at the end, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like the conversation where Marge is reckoning with this later in the episode, where she's confronting like, he knew this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was, you know, as much as it's like impossible, like, in my head, like 25 years, 27 years later, how do you forget?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like watching her deal with that knowledge was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to state just clearly like, as far as I understand it, this is all outside of known power level for Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said earlier like, we think he's a creature that could maybe move between dimensions, but the time you win me aspect of its perception and its ability to control that, I don't think is canonical to the novel.
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't control it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is, it is, in the sense that it can go, it can like reload its save, at various points in history, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a power on some of it, whether it's control or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I can explain this scientifically, and I think this is definitely what they're pulling from.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you guys interested in that Jessica and the discord encouraged me?
[SPEAKER_03]: She wants to know about imaginary time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe we should, can I just say real quick, though?
[SPEAKER_01]: Beep beep is how this section is titled.
[SPEAKER_01]: And someone in the discord, I think it's read a re-born.
[SPEAKER_01]: did from, you know, give the writers a suggestion.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they had cut a lot of this conversation, we would have lost the, the marriage, followed up conversation, but there would be something nice if just a beep, beep, margin, or something as all we got.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that for, for like people like me, it would be a little more, oh my God, it's Richie's mom, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but then we don't get the conversation later with she's having to reckon with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: a good overall change, but it certainly would make that seem really tight and effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're going to do a reveal, anyways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Imagine, Erie.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I'm looking at this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alicia, I did promise you some time on the podcast to go into science.
[SPEAKER_01]: People, there's a square root on the outline.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know how to do the square root symbol in Copy's paste.
[SPEAKER_01]: Copy's paste.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like, because someone have the bill neither science guy, theme on running on, I don't know, I mean, I guess this is more math in science and I'm going to try to keep this as simple as possible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if either of you are familiar with the concept of imaginary time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's one of Stephen Hawking's pet subjects.
[SPEAKER_02]: not at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, and I will say that, yeah, I think that this is what, uh, the Muscatys are pulling from Andy Muscatys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, he did point out a book reference where, and the key thing is it's not the Pennywise is jumping around in the timeline.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the Pennywise experiences all of time at once.
[SPEAKER_03]: and there's scientific basis for this, but to set it up, just imaginary time, the imaginary part, it has to do with imaginary numbers and just a light, quick review of this, it's a calculus concept, so some of you might remember it from school.
[SPEAKER_03]: some of you might not or didn't study that, but basically when you do the square root of a number, like you do the square root of 9, the square root is plus or minus 3, because if you do negative 3 times each other that creates a positive knot.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you can't take the square root of a negative
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's inconvenient for mathematicians.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they decided, let's just make up a number.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to label it with a lower case I and call that an imaginary number so that we can continue to do this math.
[SPEAKER_03]: That just is more convenient if we're allowed to take the square root of negative numbers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so they draw it as a perpendicular, like a graph, you know, uh, we'll talk about that with time in a second, but basically you take that imaginary number and you multiply it by our real experience of time, and you get towel, which is imaginary time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what that means, and by the way, I noticed, while I was writing the notes, I wrote, oh my god, that actually spells it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I times t for time is actually it, but I think that's just a coincidence.
[SPEAKER_03]: But basically, the way we experience time is we move forward in a straight line and time is more or less defined by increasing entropy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, time goes forward and our kitchens get messier, you know, we have to vacuum again things fall apart.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's increasing entropy.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the direction time goes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's going to be important in terms of how it experiences it versus when you do imaginary time.
[SPEAKER_03]: that line and let's assume time is like a spatial dimension and let's just rotate it
[SPEAKER_03]: and this is not literal but let's rotate it 90 degrees perpendicular and say there's this other spatial dimension of time so time rather than just being a line forward time goes two directions only it's actually a sphere and I'll get back to why that is relates to Pennywise in a second but the idea the reason why they created this math just like the
[SPEAKER_03]: here.
[SPEAKER_03]: They can now mathematically measure space in four dimensions.
[SPEAKER_03]: It allows them to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it does like convenient things like it turns quantum mechanics into thermodynamics so they can have those two in conversation with each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Stephen Hawking looked at this and looked at you know this this idea of imaginary time that arose out of convenience and said,
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's take it a step further.
[SPEAKER_03]: But before we take it a step further, does any of what I say make sense to you guys?
[SPEAKER_02]: At least it's, you go ahead, Mark.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, yes, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent job doing a mid-ranked check for understanding.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very important if I'm explaining hexacordal commeditoriality to pause midway and say, do you understand what I'm talking about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because otherwise, 30 minutes later, I turn around and nobody's even, I don't actually talk about hexacordal commeditoriality in my classes, but thank you for checking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead, John.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: I imagine that I understand.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so just yeah extra dimension of time outside of our own experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's important.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so Stephen Hawking looked at this and I'm just going to quote him from a famous speech he gave on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: He said, one cannot determine what is real.
[SPEAKER_03]: All one can do is find which mathematical models describe the universe we live in.
[SPEAKER_03]: It turns out that a mathematical model involving imaginary time predicts not only effects we have already observed, but also effects we have not been able to measure yet nevertheless believe in for other reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what is real and what is imaginary is a distinction just in our minds.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he's saying, what if we say it's not just convenient math?
[SPEAKER_03]: But what if we say, this is a real concept and he specifically found it convenient for looking at the big bang.
[SPEAKER_03]: And because at the moment of the big bang, we have an infinite density in the universe, which creates a paradox.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you add imaginary time,
[SPEAKER_03]: it solves a lot of these paradoxes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just trying to keep it as simple as possible, more or less, it's like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what this does is at this moment of creation, it means that there is a space time
[SPEAKER_03]: four-dimensional universe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Stephen Hawking talked about it as a sphere because he says there's no beginning or end time in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is all happening at the same time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like in terms of the entity, it's like it's entire timeline is quantum entangled.
[SPEAKER_03]: together into one experience of time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not like it jumps around.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's that it is simultaneously experiencing the 80s, the 60s, the 30s, all at the same time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for it, every season is playing out concurrently.
[SPEAKER_03]: Does this make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I mean, parenthetically, I don't, I don't know if the novel describes that perceptive ability to it, but I do, and but I don't think that that's incongruous with what we're seeing here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the issue that the challenge here is that if it's just that everything I said about how this is actually a sequel and all that is not
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll wait that that's correct.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not done yet, so I will pay you with what you said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let it just check it in and pin on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think also for my whole actually this is kind of crazy cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I shouldn't be mad that marriage is rich as mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: There needs to also be some agency in that awareness that Pennywise or that it has that actually allows some of these to be second chances in parallel dimensions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So please go on, but I'll just say that to my sort of engagement of this as it relates to the characters.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, I mean, for me, I find it satisfying, you know, as Musquiaty pointed out, the entity does make reference to experiencing all of time at once in the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it is pulling from that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I also notice like the way the book is structured is that it cuts back and forth between the two timelines or two main timelines, but often even mid-scene, like one scene will cut back and forth.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that is very much mirroring this idea as well, the way the book structure itself.
[SPEAKER_03]: But so this imaginary time I said that it was Stephen Hawking theorized it was like this at the moment of the big bang except the moment of the big bang is the same moment as the big crunch is the same as every other moment only not so at real time so it does get confusing real time is our experience imaginary time is around it, but once
[SPEAKER_03]: real time actually got started, imaginary time became outside the balance of our experience is how people normally put it and I would say the way Stephen King puts it is the macroverse or the to-dash darkness.
[SPEAKER_03]: So.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, darkness is is.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not the same thing as the macroverse, but I mean, some people think that it is, but do you want to explain what those two things are then?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the Macroverse we can just describe is like kind of the collective universe of that story world, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Todashtarkness is a specific zone, so to speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: It basically, where the, whether it's chaos, it is where the monsters come from.
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And humans have a very limited capacity if at all to engage in that space.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's certain moments where roll-in to shame in the dark tower will kind of peer into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But my understanding is like, that's a very specific, like, okay, so the missed.
[SPEAKER_01]: people kind of understand the missed to be something that for some reason is bringing the entities of the totash darkness into earth for whatever reason right so some of those entities appear to be the same that they see randomly wandering around the world so this kind of thing appears to happen from time to time um but did they call it the shimi or what is it the
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the, um, the thinnies, yeah, talking about, so a thinny is like, yeah, a space where the, the veil between worlds is thinner, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, which I feel like that comes from like Celtic mythology, doesn't it kind of like the, sure, sawing kind of, from a temporal standpoint, it's similar to that, except in, in a region or a location.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I, I interpret the totesh space, totesh darkness to be,
[SPEAKER_01]: almost the space between worlds or the the chaos nothing outside of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the macroverse maybe just refers to the interconnected universe is in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I?
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like you you were reading something different about this recently that maybe I'm speaking out of turn about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, well, oh, yeah, that some people equate, well, I would say, okay, well, if we look at it, I've seen, yeah, the people online equate the totage darkness in the Macroverse in a lot of cases, but I would say that if we talk about the science that I'm talking about, they are
[SPEAKER_03]: part of the same, you know, I said for dimensions, including time, but if we if we throw in, you know, string theory or something, I am actually not a huge fan of string theory, but we throw in multi-versal theories, it could be more dimensions in that, but it would be all folded up together in what is ultimately a big spacetime sphere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Connected in that dark tower in this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I would say the toadash darkness is more about, yeah, well, this, this outside of our experience zone where imaginary time still exists.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Pennywise lives in imaginary time, and I would say Pennywise's birth and death is kind of like the big bang versus big crunch, but the material inversion, because in like, like, material like spits up the universe or what you want to add about what's the, how's the universe born in it?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember, it's gone, it's gone, forms it for my gun.
[SPEAKER_01]: We may be deep in now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost, I almost wonder, this is, you know, about the series itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I interpreted Pennywise same that its death is its birth, that
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily even that it's experiencing all times at once, but that there was a kind of backwards happening and that it's death in 2017, it is now almost a rewind and that's why we get chapter two, which is further back in time and chapter three and then chapter 70 would be 700 years ago, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it almost felt to me that it's not even the simultaneously 80 of it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the a new linearity, a backwards linearity that makes this retro causality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's a big word.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, that 27 years in the past is now actually for Pennywise happening 27 years later, so it can then use what it knows already to its advantage and that that That is what makes for me this all work and kind of fascinating because it's not just about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Pennywise knows everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about
[SPEAKER_01]: the things that happened to these towns people didn't happen in the previous, but yet they did, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like multi multi universal.
[SPEAKER_01]: So John wants us to get back on track.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these are not, these are not mutually exclusive ideas.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said that I was going to address that so let me do that and we'll finish this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but yeah, so we find Pennywise cannot go past his own death and this goes with Stephen Hawking's idea You know, he thinks with the big crunch when you know the universe collapses back and on itself are an our real Experience of time will not reverse.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost like Pennywise is going through the big crunch where Pennywise is Going backwards, but
[SPEAKER_03]: I talked about entropy being the definition of time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Pennywise's entropy increases as it goes backwards.
[SPEAKER_03]: This whole idea of re-born saying it gets worse as it goes back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this implies this retro causality that you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is not mutually exclusive with everything that I just said.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's that Pennywise is experiencing the big crunch while we're experiencing expansion.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and so yeah, uh, read a reborn by the way, puts, uh, made a point in the discord about the faces peeling backs, see, sequence being likely a sign of signal weakening, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that Pennywise is indeed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Experiencing all of time at once because he does explicitly say that in the show and in the book I experienced all of time at once but at the same time the way Pennywise is aging so to speak is backwards for us
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, it was just, I thought it was really cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: It created an unsettling tease for season two about what if they killed their parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: What does that?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm wondering if a we're going to be seeing all of time through each other more in future seasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like maybe they already recorded extra scenes with these kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll get to see in future seasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm wondering, you know, indeed, does if there are changes in the past, does that create new timelines and where will they take that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're saying, like, Rose could die next season, and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but like, fine in the sense that it doesn't break the timeline, like it just sort of creates another branch.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not exactly what I'm saying, but I'm questioning.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, totally sure on your way to murder Rose, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in the crowd.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, it's so.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope it's.
[SPEAKER_03]: I tried to make that it's as simple as possible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I hope that it made sense to people.
[SPEAKER_02]: It did, and I really do appreciate it because it does recontextualize it, and I, I hope that they
[SPEAKER_02]: don't include equations, but I hope that they, but I do hope that they like sort of make clearer what Pennywise's relationship is with time as going forward, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how does this work?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does he have the memories from the future?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, all of them does he just have?
[SPEAKER_02]: does he have memories tied to the people who killed him?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that is that what his memories are tied to?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not memories as much as like he's like, oh, I smell you in two places at the same time.
[SPEAKER_03]: You in 1908 and you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, all the things they call it with will now memories, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that what what Joyce calls it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also though, John, they could just
[SPEAKER_01]: This could not come up really, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't have to matter to the next generation of kids fighting it, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: They may not know any of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This may be that this one group is the only group that ever learns anything about this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm okay with that, but
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as they don't contradict themselves, like we may slowly learn about it, but it may not be really explained, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay to not do an exposition dump.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have to remind myself that, because even though even if I like the lore,
[SPEAKER_02]: it might freeze up the show for a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's unfreeze our show because we've been expositioned on me.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a good, no, I like it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love an expositioned on me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that probably most of the people here who listen to this podcast like an expositioned dump, it's kind of like the brand of the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: How did that all sound to expeet everybody on your podcast player?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, all right, yeah, a slayer podcast player
[SPEAKER_02]: Come on, come on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, I giggled when I saw it in the notes of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, see, I have to stop sending you guys the outline ahead of time because it's going to spoil my stupid jokes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, Alicia, you're already this one.
[SPEAKER_03]: A Dick Haloron gets inside it's head makes it freeze inside Pennywise's head Dick nearly convinces it that it is actually Bob Gray on cue to mess things up the military arrive and knock Haloron out of focus while Shaw tells the frozen it's that he will fix what Haloron did to him Pennywise wakes up and remembers Shaw turning back into his childhood fear and consuming him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lee Roy unable to convince Fuller and the other military members to listen to him overcomes the forces with Dick and Hank.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is the other thing that I asked to do in advance, can we dedicate a little
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I remember my heart, the lips would eat my face We bonded over a bit tree, but they weren't supposed to turn on me No, I remember my heart, the lips would eat my face
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I don't think other of you were familiar with that meme, but it comes from originally in October 2015, a guy named Adrian Bot tweeted, I never thought Leopard's eating my, uh, I never thought Leopard's would eat my face, subs woman, who voted for the Leopard's eating people's faces party.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this woman Francesca Ramsey, she made that song, and now she has a TikTok or whatever, and she breaks it out whenever the new cycle warns it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like she would support me dedicating that song to Mr. Let's release the leopard from his cage to eat other people's faces, getting his face literally eaten by the leopard.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was ready for him to get even in a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: He spotted Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, he's going to get Eden's so bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do we think the first of all, very cool, dick being able to kind of enhance this thing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and by the way, I just want to say, I did do this part and then in the next part, a little out of order just to focus in on a couple of characters, but go on, show it on Mark.
[SPEAKER_01]: what we're seeing none of that happened right that's not a memory that's just a spell right that's just an illusion right yeah okay because at first I'm like wait did they ever they never found his body right he just disappeared they found his like uh what do you call it handkerchief right so yeah that I was just checking right I thought that was the case
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we know that shaming Pennywise is the way to defeat him in the movie lore.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe that's what Dick kind of zeroed in on, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is like, what makes Pennywise feel horrible is feeling small and feeling powerless.
[SPEAKER_02]: And human.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And having him chained to the Bob Gray persona, unable to hurt the person who, you know, he gets slapped, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: and unable to fight back, and being belittled as a drunkard, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think that's Pennywise's worst fear is being powerless and being kind of a loser.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Mike makes fun of the losers because he is one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think his worst fear is being us is being the people he victimizes and being tracked in one life, one sad, middle-aged clown.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dick, by the way, just absolute beast with power, just the fact that he could freeze Pennywise like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought at first, I was like, Sean's got a die as soon as he saw that happen because now he knows the Dick can literally control it and he's the only one who can do that shit work of crawling in there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that battle went on perhaps a little too long at the expense of other things, but it made Dick look cool as hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does make you wonder, like if Lee Roy and Charlotte and Rose are gonna team up and let's stop this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Dick, before you leave town, can you find other people with this ability and teach them how to use it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that is the most, you combine that with having that dagger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every 27 years, 15 minutes later, it is defeated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that is so powerful that he was able to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the kids helped him by accident, perhaps, but by stalling the entity, they had to see what have made it to the tree.
[SPEAKER_03]: If not for the kids, you know, coming to collect will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, well, I'll hold this question to later.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, now you have me curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't hold that now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, why are they going to the tree?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
[SPEAKER_01]: that the dagger can still communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: But is that the, that's not the location.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't they, they dug up the sesquies, sort of pointed location.
[SPEAKER_01]: They dug that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't they just putting the dagger there?
[SPEAKER_01]: That encloses the cage again.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where the previous pillar was.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a military camp finder, perhaps?
[SPEAKER_01]: But like the military dug up the, oh, you're saying so they can't, it's just kind of, there's something about all the mechanics of this, the video gamingness of it, Quest that I'm just super confused and like, I think it's very rule of cool, especially, and I'll just say it now, even though I'm jumping ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: They so much of this is the, 10-Wise can't get too close to that dagger.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's repelled by it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how is it jumping in this awesome badass slow-mo to try to grab it at the very end?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it feels like they forgot a little bit what the actual point was and they just had an awesome scene in mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get how Pennywise is trying to like, it seems grab the dagger from the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas it should be oh crap you're you're going there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have to go in the other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything you've taught me in this eight episode series is that that thing stops me in my tracks.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like they lost the thread a little bit and the the like moment guided the the scenario instead of like maybe this is kind of related to the blocking comment earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: You made Alicia like
[SPEAKER_01]: the actual mechanics of the actual battle, so to speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kind of moment to moment quest is far less successful than this sort of metaphysical and emotional weight of the quest, like the rich running up and save it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is just soaking in so lovely.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the actual fact that he's running up to this dagger and so his pennywise makes no sense to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll just say that, we don't have to harp on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can move on now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was less bothered by it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, they were like, oh my god, he's already on the lake.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he's already passed the point where they could have, you know, put it back in the original spot, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they didn't have the dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was running after the dagger then.
[SPEAKER_01]: How is Pennywise able to do, but, you know, like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because how is he able to get near the dagger?
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, go at the dagger.
[SPEAKER_02]: it's a good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right there is some kind of sloppy writing there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just really cool looking, like really profoundly cool looking.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is me harping on some of the CG in the season.
[SPEAKER_01]: That that form is so cool looking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's face changing over and over again.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're the end of the video.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought that was the end of answer to my dinosaur question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's something, and it looks cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks a lot cooler than the spider form, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It, there's something about it that felt a little more
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's get going on to the next scene, Mark, you want to read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rebuilding the cage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leroy and Daniel get shot at while trying to get to the deadwood tree with the dagger, killing Daniel and injuringly Roy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before he gets surrounded, Leroy gives the dagger to Will and tells him what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Will and the rest of the losers go to the deadwood tree with their force of Will against the dagger's resistance and get right above the burial spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The ghost of rich peers, guided by sesquie, and helps his friends push the dagger into the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: This cages it and sends it away for the cycle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Afterwards, marginally wonder if it will try to kill past generations of their ancestors.
[SPEAKER_01]: But say it's someone else's fight.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we are sure already got his face eaten by the leopard, but F. Him for killing 10-year-old.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I do have to say, I get there's when Chatter in the discord about people wish Rose got to confront Shaw after that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I get that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It would be almost nice if they did, I don't know, just do like a short film in between where we get some of these extra resolutions.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't have time to fit in the aid episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted a single shot of one of the teenagers like cause they had to have been ushered off and they're like, oh, go that way and they're watching this epic battle from the side of the water.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted at least Peggy can't see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, the visibility is very that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very silent hill, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Our GPU is not strong enough to process otherwise in line, so we need fog.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you know, can I just interject quickly that I'm playing the new silent hill in the evenings a couple times and It does feel a little ridiculous to have the fog now that we are on modern GPUs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, go on with this a 30-foot visibility Rob
[SPEAKER_01]: I about Daniel, very, very bummer, but very kignant to have like the human bad guys come it's like anti-token, right, Tolkien is like, and the Eagles came and like all these things happen at the last second, right, the writers of Rohan have come to help Gondor, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is or maybe I'll got that backwards, maybe it depends on the film.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the human bad guy comes and ruins things while you're dealing with the supernatural bad guy just before the end and ultimately loses sometimes through random bad luck on their chances but this feels like a very recurring thing in King Stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Henry Bowers would be one that that
[SPEAKER_01]: in the outsider it happens and there's a very pivotal moment with a snake associated with that like it's just kind of a thing and I think well done to them but damn that character he didn't he just just gunned down like come on guys that is pretty bad yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I wonder if they are going to come back to some of the stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: For instance, there's a thing with lever or a getting deadlighted, but it doesn't really have any immediate consequences.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, if you're so tied on time, why include that?
[SPEAKER_03]: And my question, I mean, the answer that I have in my head that we have to see how it plays out is maybe in a future season will
[SPEAKER_03]: Learn something about this being deadlighted and perhaps it creates some extra connection or something of that sort.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I personally, I feel like they've neutered the deadlines a little too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the dead lights is not just a stun attack, the lights is supposed to break your brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that how many kids, 200 kids just got dead lit, some of our main characters got dead lit, and literally not a single one had their brain broken.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every single one was fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's this glimmer, bill, build Embrow's wife, Audra gets deadlighted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the very end, they're writing his bike as I recall, his childhood bike.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she finally after months and months of being essentially comatose, but like functioning body functions, like she can walk around and
[SPEAKER_01]: She shows a glimmer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember exactly how it goes down, but she shows a glimmer of waking up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's something about this childhood glee, much like the childhood glee of Pennywise running across the ice, which I found very fun in this episode to watch.
[SPEAKER_01]: wakes her up and you and that's basically how the book ends if I recall and it's like whoa did she snap out of it and here it's just everybody snapping out of it all the time and yeah i mean i think the movie's kind of neutered it already a bit like well but at least up uh frog prints kind of kiss i don't know you're correct but like it really is just a stunning grenade in in this show yeah um
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, some curious to see if it ends up if it's going somewhere because I with his whole all the time happening at once from the entities perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we are essentially like every season obviously we're going to get our losers club or whatever version of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: our catette, but it is, this is essentially the main characters of the show is actually the entity.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is the entity's experience that we're following backward in time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think I, I'm going to put some internet points on the table.
[SPEAKER_03]: They filmed extra scenes this season and we're going to see them work into future seasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do like I wonder for instance that there's that other white military dude and I'm sorry I forget his name because he's just around but they never say his name is full or hernal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and he at the end, you know, they made a point of showing him and like showing him noticing the damage that chauve rocks, you know, in terms of Daniel being dead on the ice.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have to wonder, is that going to be significant in some way in shaping what happens with the military in Derry?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that why we don't see such a military presence in the 80s or something like that?
[SPEAKER_03]: And will we see that?
[SPEAKER_03]: I do have questions about the timing, why meanness of this whole, the way, like I know, John, you didn't want them to just do the ritual of chat every time, or the movie version obviously and I'm going to suck each other's tongues and tell riddles, but it's true book stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then yeah, I don't think there's really a, I think that's met a, for the clue, anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, correct, different in the movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there is a problem that like if all of this happened with the stones and the meteors and the trees and the fact that none of this is mentioned in the movies, we need an explanation as to is this information about the meteorites lost?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are the meteors themselves lost?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is this somehow a different timeline?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the original sin of doing a prequel at all, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything you add is like, well, why didn't that come up?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe it's better as a sequel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, I think it is a sequel, but they still, it's time is going in multiple directions or and happening all at the same time depending on who's perspective you have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let's get this episode wrapped up with some connections.
[SPEAKER_02]: Will and Ronnie both prepare to leave Derry, and don't want to forget each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: They share their first kiss.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ronnie goes off with her father to Canada with the help of Charlotte and Rosa, which I'm assuming means Rosa Parks, but it was interesting for them to pick Rosa when we had a Rose right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just, without the subtitles, I would have thought she said Rose.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bruce offers to sell the house to a newly honorably discharged Lee Roy Handlin, Charlotte encourages Lee Roy to stay, but and end they buy the farm from Rose, while Will promises to write Ronnie, so she won't forget.
[SPEAKER_02]: Halorin tells Handlin, he's got a job cooking at a hotel, how hard could that be?
[SPEAKER_02]: Marge speaks at Rich's funeral, quoting Bill Denbrose, future book in her eulogy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Elderly Ingrid walks the halls of Juniper Hill to find a young Beverly March, mourning her mother who is hanging from a news.
[SPEAKER_02]: She tells Bev that, in dairy, no one who dies ever really dies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did not know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not catch that Marge's speech.
[SPEAKER_01]: was something that Bill would write like 50 years later.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: How the hell does that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like does that mean that Bill going up in Dairy sees this written on the tombstone of this boy and like understanding that maybe none of this happens in his timeline?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how does that even work even if this is a different timeline?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did he get this from March?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did March get it from him, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more is that one of those things
[SPEAKER_01]: is has truth with the capital T, but isn't factually true, meaning like has metaphorical significance to a story, but we're not supposed to internalize as actually, like this isn't actually built during Brown's writing in this universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just they took it to pale monster king and it's kind of a meta thing, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I just want to say I did not find this myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw it on a TikTok.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody was like, oh my god, that's Bill's writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I did take the screenshot.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you go to the very end of it chapter two, there is Bill right before he gets a phone call.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think from my canline, but I don't remember exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: He right before he picks up the phone, he's writing this exact paragraph that March says at the funeral, which is insane.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which comes from the book itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: it does come from the book itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, time loopy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, this one is dual on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Question about, okay, so Veronica Ronnie Grogan is still alive and is leaving town and this is another one like we, they are intentionally leaving and I don't, they obviously
[SPEAKER_03]: Veronica Grogan and this is a thing I've been dancing around in prior episodes.
[SPEAKER_03]: She speaks to Beverly through the pipes as, you know, one of the voices of the dead.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's also, she was a friend of Beverly's in the book and died.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, that's toward the beginning of the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm past that part.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, she, in the book she was, um, same age as Beverly and, and is one of the kids who is skilled in that cycle in the movies.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just one of the voices speaking to Beverly through the
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that does that mean that Ronnie comes back and dies?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or is it because it copied her to call Will and now has that in his repertoire?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's repertoire.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this could be a raccoon or something to it doesn't make any sense though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would they bother?
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: They could have chosen any name for this character in the show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is why I think there's a point, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's so hard to figure out what that would be though, but I do think it could also be like similar to they did this in how slow the dragon right is that characters were presumed that in history, but they actually fake their death.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that they wanted to have the grogins have a happy ending secretly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because my canlin is just going through the histories, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: In the histories it'll save Veronica grogan and her father both died in the fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: But in the movie, we saw, we heard the voices, you know, just speaking at Beverly through the pipe as to saying, we are the dead and saying their names.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the names was expressly Veronica Grogan and the misguided to you know, put that in their own movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they know about it and they chose that name on purpose.
[SPEAKER_01]: But is that not an 80s kid that's a contemporary to Beth?
[SPEAKER_01]: Could it be that that's just a kid who died?
[SPEAKER_01]: There are 27 years ago.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, could be way too much possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just Pennywise lying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think is the way that we would, Pennywise presuming like John said, like, maybe Ronnie is presumed dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause like, that was actually unclear to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is Hank not wanted anymore?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is he under an assumed identity at this point and going to Canada to flee?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or have charges been dropped or something like that?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, he's fleeing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's why they're the whole thing about sneaking him across the border, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you could just
[SPEAKER_01]: presume her dead and Pennywise is using that name to, you know, in Muscatty, chosen name randomly in 2017 when making that film maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then or took it from the book or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then decided, hey, it would be cool if actually this dead girl wasn't a dead girl and actually escaped and might be nothing more than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It may not be an actual dead person in the sewers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think we might get more looks at what happened after this in future seasons, because they still have to explain, like, you might expressly, or sorry, might see, will expressly said when she left, I'll write to you, and then we still don't, you know, know who is, who is Mike's mom.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I'm positing is that we are going to get a continuation of this story in future scenes even though they're set in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyways, so we got that shining reference with Dick Halorin going to the hotel, but he said a hotel in London, which I was wondering about, and I was wondering if it was a right issue, but I think Warner Bros. does have the rights to the shining.
[SPEAKER_03]: So why a hotel in London?
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw someone positive maybe the scenes of Dick Halorin in the hotel were filmed in London
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know any thoughts on the while London.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I will say movie rights are often different from TV rights.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they could have rights to the movies and not the TV.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's WB owns, is doing this show and is the one that did those movies.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I assume they have them all for this, that studio.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because they do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying that you can have the rights to put something in a movie and not the rights to put something on TV.
[SPEAKER_03]: I see what you mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see.
[SPEAKER_02]: That happens with rings of power.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why Amazon was able to get the TV rights, but they don't have the movie rights for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they do have the movie rights for shining and Dr. Seep, because they made those movies.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have the movie rights, but we don't know if they have the TV rights to that specific story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see what you mean.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we might be overthinking this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost interpreted him saying there's a guy I know in London who owns a hotel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this could be, so the ownership of the overlook changes hands many times and sometimes suspiciously.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this could just be somebody who owns a bunch of hotels and one of them is in London and he goes and works there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he's a seasonal employee at the overlook.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is the cook and he leaves in the summer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, this is, so this is early 60s.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the shining is mid 70s.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he, he's hired full time like permanent staff only recently in the shining, but he has been working there as a seasonal employee for some number of many years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it could just simply be,
[SPEAKER_01]: He he works for this hotelier in London who also owns this hotel in Colorado and every summer he goes to Colorado, right, to work because there's more seasonal traffic at the overlooked than there is it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the London hotel, I would ever, and it could be that simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, and I think this was a little too cute, a little too like, oh, what could be it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But whatever, I'll give them the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was it we're all wondering what happens in between, but maybe nothing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just he just he's got a lot of.
[SPEAKER_01]: naked lady posters to acquire in time for for his film character version to put on the wall in a really conspicuous fashion.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that takes time and effort.
[SPEAKER_01]: Curation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just to shout out first of all very cool that the Henlands, they now have the family duty to remember and are the first non-native members of Maturen.
[SPEAKER_03]: But also I want to shout out an RIP to they brought back the original Mrs. Kersh from It Chapter 2, Florence Patterson, and then she apparently passed away two months after
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was cool to see Ingrid in the future that, you know, she's still obsessed painting her holding daddy's hand and this connection with Beverly was established.
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you guys think about Elfrieda Marsh?
[SPEAKER_03]: We got she has taken her own life and Ingrid tells Beverly, they all float out
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's basically her, her mantra, right, um, you know, people were like, I saw people saying like, why didn't that remember that as an adult?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, I just think that you can kind of explain away anything like that with people have weird memories stuff going on in dairy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I'm going to talk to, yeah, you know, years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of both both though, because
[SPEAKER_01]: It chases, chooses so presumably Ingrid dies before either Ingrid dies before that scene in the Mrs. Kurshine and it happens or Pennywise has adopted that formal she's still alive, but it does make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: on some level, though, something that scared her, and that moment was whether she remembers it consciously or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was very scared by turning around and seeing this lady say this cryptic stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it never even made a whole lot of sense in the books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why Pennywise is taking this particular form in that moment?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
[SPEAKER_01]: it's it's not her abusive dad or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just this this old lady who turns monster is so maybe that explains it though, you know, she should maybe be more immediately afraid if that's the case instead of gradually realizing that this is a monster.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, I think people also like really overestimate how good their memories are from their childhood.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like people, I barely remember have the stuff from my childhood, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And and also like if I if a weird old lady said something to me in 1988 and now it's 2016 I probably am not going to assume it's the same weird old lady, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like probably she's not around anymore But but she might be lurking in your subconscious for penalized to draw upon right right I did want to just call out as I understand it in the books
[SPEAKER_01]: El Frida does not die via suicide in the books.
[SPEAKER_01]: She dies via cancer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then her, you know, I think Alan Marsh, I'm trying to remember if that's his name.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her dad's dill goes on his really bad streak.
[SPEAKER_01]: After that, although he was pretty bad before that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the suicide is a show, a movie invention.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So interesting, I don't know if that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're doing anything with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is sort of,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that this has a lot of significance, just kind of connective tissue and a, you know, uh, camera.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay with it just being a nod.
[SPEAKER_03]: I ain't thanks together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, we did it everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: We did the whole season of it, welcome to Derry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Much better than I thought it was going to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought this was going to be a fun ride, but it was going to be a little more like Qt.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was kind of a profound examination of the 1960s prejudices and, you know, again, friendship and bonds, which is something that it has always been good at.
[SPEAKER_02]: exploring and I'm grateful for both of you to be here with me for this whole journey.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I'm glad to have been able to talk about it with the two of you.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been way deeper than I expected, based on I think we might have all like the second movie might have all given us lowered expectations.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: They really raised the bar.
[SPEAKER_01]: 100% and they kind of started with I like that first episode, but they started with a lot of the things I didn't like about the the overuse of CG kind of that stuff and that fell into the background a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had my issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed sparring with you on this stuff at least here sometimes, but they kind of pulled it together and they gave a lot of interesting enriching aspects to talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think this is not a subtractive addition to the
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of work that adds interesting dimensions to, to uncover.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm, I'm not without Quibbles, but very much looking forward to the next season, and it's been really fun to Stephen King is one of those things that like, my dad is the only person I can talk to, like, none of my other friends and family read it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's nice to like,
[SPEAKER_01]: get to talk about this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the reason we do this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just having people alert out with.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Mark, don't worry.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can talk to at least me about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure Alicia, I think I'm going to go into Dark Tower after I finish it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that'll be fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to finish the last couple of books of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well yeah, we can we can have a follow up conversation super here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we'll do a what you're reading in Comments and maybe up maybe all be halfway through under the dome at that point That's one already almost halfway.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so far so good on that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a shell.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, too The show was my sister said the show is terrible, but yeah, yeah, yeah, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Mark, I know you got to head out So let's get you out of here and then I will do an outro on my own
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Wonderwall lost this week for never mind the music everybody listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get some orange over there talk about sibling birth order
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder why, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, bye everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks everyone for listening to this whole season of It Welcome to Dairy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a great season and I know the three of us had a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: For now, I want to tell you about everything else going on on the Lorhound's main network.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are going to get a lot of Christmas content starting with violent night on the public feed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And for our subscribers, we're going to do a matchup
[SPEAKER_02]: We also give out a free public episode of Second Breakfast once a year on Christmas Day.
[SPEAKER_02]: So on December 25th, you are going to get our top 10 shows of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is an annual episode where Alicia Dave and I give our top 10 shows of the year, our biggest miss, our most anticipated show for next year, and our...
[SPEAKER_02]: a guilty pleasure of the year we also give community rink rankings of all the shows and on the 26 you'll hear david's interviews with all of our co-hosts and contributors on their top three shows at least of the year just because we can't do top 10 for every single person or we will have the longest podcast maybe we've ever done.
[SPEAKER_02]: We also have Pluribus, a couple more weeks on that going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got plenty of other stuff coming, like a night of the seven kingdoms coming in January.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we'll have full coverage on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And on the rest of the network, you heard Mark talk about his Oasis episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: So check out Nevermind the Music.
[SPEAKER_02]: You will also be able to hear soon radioactive ramblings do fall out season two when that comes out.
[SPEAKER_02]: you're going to hear more probably how it's sometimes soon though i'm not sure exactly when i'm sure rings and rituals will be back in the new year too uh... and there is content now on bullseye dust catching up on the christmas with christmas carol stuff
[SPEAKER_02]: and Star Wars Cannon Timeline podcast should be back in the new year too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have plenty of content coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the telemask episode is going to drop after this too now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So enjoy that.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's more horror coming on the horror feed.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll probably hear more interview with the vampire on our main feed and our horror feed.
[SPEAKER_02]: At least I'm going to be covering Season 3 in full and that's going to be a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we are looking forward to covering all kinds of shows.
[SPEAKER_02]: in 2026.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, for now, let me give a big thank you to our Discord server boosters, Aaron Kay, to live with Riller, 271, Athena A, Lestu, Nancy M. Gostopardition, Radioactive Richard, and Andreon, and our lore master, Samarshan, Michael G. Michelle E, SC, Peter O'H, Nancy M, 271, Brian 863, Frederick H, Sarah L. Garthsey,
[SPEAKER_02]: Cathy W. Lestu, Jeffree B. Elisiu, Ben B. Scott F. Stephen N. Julia F. Kalias, Illmariel, Paul K. Rockizim, Jessica A.
[SPEAKER_02]: Red Zippy, the TCS Dopa Meaning, Catch It, LNR, and Adrienne.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you everyone, and we will see you for more spooky content next year.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Laura Hounds podcast is produced in published by the Laura Hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can send questions and comments to Laurahounds at thewarhounds.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get at free access to all Laura Hounds podcasts on Patreon or Supercast and connect with us on Blue Sky and Join us on our Discord server.
[SPEAKER_00]: Links for everything are in the link tree in the show notes of this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.