WEBVTT 00:02.377 --> 00:05.021 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey friends, welcome back to the Christian parenting podcast. 00:05.081 --> 00:10.769 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad that you're here today because we are just jumping in to one of my favorite topics, which is Christmas. 00:11.350 --> 00:17.138 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could not think of a better person to help us understand the true story of Christmas in our guest today, Lee's struggle. 00:17.519 --> 00:22.025 [SPEAKER_01]: You probably know Lee as the bestselling author of the Case For Christ and so many of those books. 00:22.386 --> 00:26.612 [SPEAKER_01]: He now has a book called The Case For Christmas, which is what we are diving into today. 00:26.592 --> 00:34.247 [SPEAKER_01]: If you know Lee's story, you know that he went from a committed atheist to a passionate follower of Jesus after he investigated the claims of Christianity. 00:34.708 --> 00:37.573 [SPEAKER_01]: So today we're talking about what really happened that first Christmas. 00:38.014 --> 00:45.529 [SPEAKER_01]: What the Bible says compared to our children's book versions, how culture shapes what we picture and why the details matter for our faith. 00:45.509 --> 00:55.129 [SPEAKER_01]: We also dive into things like the version birth, the wise men, how to talk to our kids, about the parts of the story that feel confusing, and we even talk about Santa at the end. 00:55.690 --> 00:58.155 [SPEAKER_01]: I learned so much in this episode, and I think you will, too. 00:58.175 --> 00:59.518 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's jump right in. 01:05.692 --> 01:06.353 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Lee. 01:06.473 --> 01:08.775 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Christian Parenting Podcast. 01:08.795 --> 01:10.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Steph, great to be with you. 01:10.357 --> 01:11.939 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm so excited to have you back. 01:11.979 --> 01:14.722 [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about all about Christmas, the case for Christmas. 01:14.742 --> 01:16.264 [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna answer, I have a lot of questions. 01:16.284 --> 01:19.547 [SPEAKER_01]: So we could probably talk for a really long time, but I'll try to keep it understandable. 01:19.727 --> 01:23.171 [SPEAKER_01]: But I am curious, before we get into Christmas and all my questions. 01:23.492 --> 01:28.477 [SPEAKER_01]: You went from, for people who know your story, you went from being an atheist to a believer. 01:28.777 --> 01:32.822 [SPEAKER_01]: After doing a lot of research, trying to basically defend why you're an atheist and why you're wife was wrong. 01:33.042 --> 01:35.665 [SPEAKER_01]: To be able to learn. 01:35.645 --> 01:38.290 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I remember doubt your wife. 01:38.330 --> 01:39.111 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I was. 01:39.752 --> 01:41.796 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a lesson of this story. 01:43.259 --> 01:44.321 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing to do with faith. 01:44.341 --> 01:45.523 [SPEAKER_01]: It's don't doubt your wife. 01:45.683 --> 01:46.244 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 01:46.404 --> 01:46.785 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 01:46.805 --> 01:46.965 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 01:47.246 --> 01:47.967 [SPEAKER_01]: I am curious. 01:48.348 --> 01:49.610 [SPEAKER_01]: Just kind of jump in right into this. 01:49.850 --> 01:56.382 [SPEAKER_01]: How did Christmas change for you and your family going from atheist to all or of Jesus? 01:56.643 --> 01:58.826 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, um, you know, it's an atheist. 01:58.846 --> 01:59.728 [SPEAKER_00]: I love Christmas. 01:59.708 --> 02:13.567 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was awesome, because people are friendly, people are generous, a lot of parties, a lot of gift-giving, and there's nothing not to like about Christmas until someone would try to tell me it has to do with the birth of Jesus, and then, oh, no, no, no, wait a minute. 02:13.587 --> 02:18.894 [SPEAKER_00]: It's make believe that's wishful thinking, that's legend, that's mythology, and I would turn me off. 02:18.974 --> 02:21.317 [SPEAKER_00]: But I enjoyed the Christmas season. 02:21.337 --> 02:29.648 [SPEAKER_00]: I know in a lot of people are not Christians enjoyed as well, just because of the atmosphere 02:29.628 --> 02:41.365 [SPEAKER_00]: Celebratory and as a family we had a Christmas tree and you know did that kind of think I was my kids We're really really young actually it was just my daughter with that point and So she was very young and didn't know what was going on. 02:41.445 --> 02:46.573 [SPEAKER_00]: She was five years old when I came to faith So when I was an atheist she was, you know, three and under. 02:46.833 --> 02:56.327 [SPEAKER_00]: So she didn't quite know what was going on So we really had no family tradition in terms of religious celebration It was just enjoying the moment in the culture 02:56.307 --> 02:57.028 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:57.048 --> 03:00.995 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what's so interesting about Christmas is that everyone can celebrate it. 03:01.355 --> 03:10.791 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know I have friends who are of many different religions and they all celebrate Christmas in one form or another because it's such a cultural holiday about Friday and gifts. 03:10.951 --> 03:18.704 [SPEAKER_01]: And so breaking it down and really talking about the faith part of it is always so interesting to me because I didn't grow up going to church regularly. 03:18.804 --> 03:23.091 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say I tell people I grew up in a 03:23.527 --> 03:27.881 [SPEAKER_01]: We recognize that there is God and we would call ourselves Christian, but we didn't. 03:28.242 --> 03:33.899 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't go to church regularly the concept of a personal relationship with Jesus was nothing that I had ever heard of. 03:34.581 --> 03:35.123 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 03:35.221 --> 03:41.091 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't, we like, sometimes one on Christmas Eve for the candle light service, these things I went night and not a lot. 03:41.151 --> 03:48.383 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but the, and I always knew the Christmas story, but I really heard it from children's books, and that was, you know, Mary and Joseph went. 03:48.403 --> 03:52.330 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, well, she's like done to have a baby at any second, and she's on the key. 03:52.610 --> 03:54.313 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's no room at the end. 03:54.393 --> 03:55.175 [SPEAKER_01]: She's a hotel. 03:55.235 --> 03:57.519 [SPEAKER_01]: That was an envisioned like a motel. 03:58.140 --> 03:59.001 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 03:58.981 --> 04:01.746 [SPEAKER_01]: wrote up with their donkey and got out and they were like, no room. 04:02.387 --> 04:10.924 [SPEAKER_01]: And then she had her baby in a barn and laid them in a manger with all the animals and then the wise men the shepherd's like immediately show up to see this newborn baby. 04:11.024 --> 04:21.023 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was when I was older actually in seminary that this group of my peers were talking about some of the differences in the story and how there might be some details that we kind of over 04:21.003 --> 04:39.645 [SPEAKER_01]: thing or over tell and my I kind of like rocked my world because I was like what do you mean that is not the exact story and what does that mean for the story so I kind of like talk about that today like what what is true about that children's book story and then what what does it look like compared to the Bible. 04:40.566 --> 04:46.032 [SPEAKER_01]: I know for you that there was like a Greek word that should light on this story so tell us a little bit about that. 04:46.147 --> 04:54.779 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a Greek word and depending on how you translate it really affects the story quite a bit because what you told is the story that people generally hear. 04:55.079 --> 05:08.577 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's some problems I think historically with that and it all boils down to one Greek word katalima and this is the word that Luke uses in his account when it says that 05:08.557 --> 05:30.632 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary gave birth to Jesus and put him in the manger because there's no room at the katalema and it was translated by the King James for his 1611 as being the in and so the presumption was all they came and she's about to get birth they come to the in the in keeper says sorry no room so they go as you say into a stable or a cave and have the baby the problem is that's not the best translation of that word 05:30.612 --> 05:38.644 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, in the year 1395, John Wickliffe, who did his translation, even before the King James, did not translate it as an end or a commercial establishment. 05:38.965 --> 05:44.032 [SPEAKER_00]: He translated it, what I think is more accurate translation, as a room, a guest room. 05:44.052 --> 05:52.485 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, Luke only uses the word one other time in his gospel, and it's when he talks about the last supper, which hell was held in an upper room of a home. 05:52.465 --> 05:58.836 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it wasn't a commercial establishment, and Luke knew the Greek word to use if he meant it was an in-relage. 05:59.357 --> 06:01.781 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, on is the Greek word you would use. 06:01.821 --> 06:04.306 [SPEAKER_00]: He used it when he talked about the good Samaritan story. 06:04.486 --> 06:05.528 [SPEAKER_00]: So, he knew the difference. 06:05.548 --> 06:06.730 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't use that word. 06:06.770 --> 06:09.174 [SPEAKER_00]: He used the word katalima. 06:09.194 --> 06:14.423 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you have to understand what the first century home of a Jewish person looked like in Bethlehem. 06:14.403 --> 06:17.387 [SPEAKER_00]: It was one large room divided into two parts. 06:17.707 --> 06:19.850 [SPEAKER_00]: The larger part was the living area. 06:19.950 --> 06:23.354 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where people would sleep and eat and so forth. 06:23.374 --> 06:28.881 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there were a couple of steps down to a smaller area, and that's where the animals were brought at night. 06:29.061 --> 06:30.262 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they were like pets, kind of. 06:30.282 --> 06:32.825 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you may have a couple of goats, couple sheep, but they were like pets. 06:32.905 --> 06:34.988 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they were bringing them into that area. 06:35.008 --> 06:38.352 [SPEAKER_00]: It had a slanted floor, so it could be cleaned easily in the morning. 06:38.332 --> 06:41.135 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a few steps up into the living area. 06:41.335 --> 06:48.802 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, sometimes the animals would come up the steps into the living area because, as I say, they're like pets and a gold or sheep or whatever. 06:49.302 --> 06:54.007 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they had meangers in both the living area and in the animal area. 06:54.027 --> 06:58.671 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, some of the wealth of your homes had a katalima, which is a guest room. 06:58.691 --> 07:00.152 [SPEAKER_00]: That had a separate entrance. 07:00.172 --> 07:01.614 [SPEAKER_00]: It was another room in the house. 07:01.694 --> 07:04.416 [SPEAKER_00]: It was bigger and had a separate way to get in and out. 07:04.597 --> 07:06.178 [SPEAKER_00]: So what apparently happened? 07:06.158 --> 07:12.189 [SPEAKER_00]: is a marriage officer for heading to Bethlehem because of the census calling them to go back to their homeland. 07:12.369 --> 07:16.436 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're not going to door of a relative and say, hey, got any room. 07:16.577 --> 07:21.145 [SPEAKER_00]: And they say, oh, there's no room in the guest room, but you can come into the family room. 07:21.345 --> 07:24.651 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's apparently where Mary gave birth in the family room. 07:24.711 --> 07:25.753 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a major there. 07:25.733 --> 07:26.414 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what? 07:26.454 --> 07:30.721 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of the animals may have come up the steps and may have hung out and may have went wondering what was going on. 07:31.202 --> 07:33.005 [SPEAKER_00]: And they had been witnesses perhaps. 07:33.445 --> 07:39.114 [SPEAKER_00]: And the baby undoubtedly was put in a major in the clean hay of the major in the living area. 07:39.134 --> 07:42.620 [SPEAKER_00]: That's probably more accurate in terms of what took place. 07:43.061 --> 07:48.730 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, we don't know that Mary was on the verge of giving birth as she was approaching Bethlehem. 07:48.750 --> 07:51.454 [SPEAKER_00]: Luke only says that while they were in Bethlehem, 07:51.434 --> 07:56.762 [SPEAKER_00]: She gave birth and said they were in Bethlehem five minutes or five weeks or five days or whatever. 07:57.143 --> 08:03.473 [SPEAKER_00]: There is another ancient writing called a protowavangelum of James, which was written about 200 AD. 08:03.894 --> 08:05.196 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is long later. 08:05.516 --> 08:07.600 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have any historical linkage. 08:07.940 --> 08:09.563 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's mainly a book of fiction. 08:09.923 --> 08:10.945 [SPEAKER_00]: And in that book, 08:10.925 --> 08:21.263 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary and Joseph were approaching Bethlehem and she gives begins to give birth three miles before they get to Bethlehem and so they had to find a cave and she gives birth in the cave. 08:21.383 --> 08:23.868 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's from a book of not historical. 08:23.948 --> 08:25.130 [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty fictional. 08:25.631 --> 08:25.931 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:25.951 --> 08:27.394 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's where that came from. 08:27.454 --> 08:34.266 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's some misunderstandings I think about what probably really took place back in Bethlehem in those days. 08:34.246 --> 08:48.002 [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of reminds me of when you are actually hosting a lot of out-of-town guests for Christmas, or Thanksgiving, or holiday, so my in-laws like my mother and father-in-law get the actual guest room with the bed and my brother-in-law gets the pull-out couch. 08:48.421 --> 08:52.767 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they got a basement, you know, or whatever. 08:53.107 --> 08:53.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're right. 08:53.708 --> 08:55.290 [SPEAKER_00]: They got the pull out couch there. 08:55.310 --> 08:57.193 [SPEAKER_00]: They got the pull out couch instead of that. 08:57.653 --> 08:58.254 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 08:58.855 --> 08:59.075 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:59.095 --> 08:59.255 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:59.275 --> 09:00.577 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a, yeah. 09:00.597 --> 09:00.998 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 09:01.018 --> 09:04.362 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the questions that my kids actually have had growing up. 09:04.703 --> 09:08.828 [SPEAKER_01]: And I always kind of made me go a little bit is like, why would anyone turn Mary away? 09:08.888 --> 09:09.889 [SPEAKER_01]: Like she was pregnant? 09:09.909 --> 09:12.673 [SPEAKER_01]: Like she's having baby and they thought that was so mean. 09:12.940 --> 09:22.617 [SPEAKER_00]: It is, and here's the thing, in first century Jewish culture, you could, if you weren't in keeper, you could not turn away a pregnant Jewish woman, especially one on the verge of giving birth. 09:22.857 --> 09:23.999 [SPEAKER_00]: You could not do it. 09:24.019 --> 09:25.983 [SPEAKER_00]: You would be ostracized from the community. 09:26.043 --> 09:29.148 [SPEAKER_00]: The value of hospitality was so high in that culture. 09:29.208 --> 09:32.454 [SPEAKER_00]: If you did that, you would be run out of town on a rail. 09:32.675 --> 09:38.104 [SPEAKER_00]: You, so that's another reason that we don't believe it was really the result of being turned away from it. 09:38.084 --> 09:40.328 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting to me. 09:40.829 --> 09:44.435 [SPEAKER_01]: And then what about the actual virgin birth? 09:44.455 --> 09:51.026 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I feel like that obviously a huge thing for atheist and non-believers like that is there, you know, like absolutely no way. 09:51.046 --> 09:53.931 [SPEAKER_01]: So what do you just cover about how likely this is? 09:54.291 --> 09:57.437 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it a just kind of like copy from other mythology? 09:57.517 --> 09:59.400 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what did what have you learned about that? 09:59.380 --> 10:02.083 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, first of all, it's not copy from other mythologies. 10:02.264 --> 10:09.333 [SPEAKER_00]: We have other mythological stories from the pagan world that people interpret as being a virgin birth. 10:09.353 --> 10:10.154 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not. 10:10.174 --> 10:15.120 [SPEAKER_00]: No, for instance, a great example is the Da Vinci code by Dan Brown several years ago. 10:15.140 --> 10:20.587 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was became a popular movie, it was a big best selling book, and he claimed the historical parts of it were true. 10:20.987 --> 10:23.530 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, oh, Christian is a copycat religion. 10:23.591 --> 10:25.573 [SPEAKER_00]: There was an ancient myth, 10:25.553 --> 10:30.582 [SPEAKER_00]: built around mythos when mythological character and mythos was born of a virgin on December 25. 10:30.602 --> 10:32.746 [SPEAKER_00]: He had 12 disciples. 10:33.086 --> 10:36.633 [SPEAKER_00]: He died for world peace and he was resurrected from the dead. 10:37.013 --> 10:37.795 [SPEAKER_00]: So there you go. 10:37.815 --> 10:41.942 [SPEAKER_00]: The Christians just copied that into the story of Jesus. 10:41.922 --> 10:44.445 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, when you research it, what you find is just not true. 10:44.665 --> 10:51.033 [SPEAKER_00]: Mythris, the myth says he emerged fully grown naked, except for hat, from a rock. 10:51.213 --> 10:54.276 [SPEAKER_00]: So, unless you consider the rock to be a virgin, there was no virgin birth. 10:54.296 --> 10:57.080 [SPEAKER_00]: The myth was that he emerged fully grown from a rock. 10:57.400 --> 11:00.824 [SPEAKER_00]: Secondly, so what was born December 25th? 11:00.944 --> 11:02.866 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know the date that Jesus was born. 11:02.986 --> 11:03.927 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not in the Bible. 11:04.028 --> 11:06.510 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can, you know, talk about how that came out. 11:06.851 --> 11:08.793 [SPEAKER_00]: But we don't know the date that Jesus was born. 11:08.813 --> 11:10.495 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not a copycat thing. 11:10.475 --> 11:12.278 [SPEAKER_00]: Third, he didn't die for World Peace. 11:12.298 --> 11:13.720 [SPEAKER_00]: He was known for killing a bull. 11:14.101 --> 11:17.927 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, fourth, there is no, by the way, he didn't have 12 disciples. 11:18.027 --> 11:20.932 [SPEAKER_00]: In one version he had one disciple, another version he had two disciples. 11:21.112 --> 11:24.878 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he was known for killing a bull, not for dying for World Peace. 11:24.898 --> 11:28.865 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no account of his death and his myth and therefore no resurrection. 11:29.205 --> 11:32.010 [SPEAKER_00]: So everything just collapses when you investigate it. 11:31.990 --> 11:36.154 [SPEAKER_00]: And that same is true for all these other myths that people claim, Alexander the Great. 11:36.174 --> 11:37.475 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he was born of a virgin. 11:37.515 --> 11:41.619 [SPEAKER_00]: No, even Alexander the Great's own mother, Olympia said, that's not true. 11:41.639 --> 11:44.361 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, that's a record to straight. 11:44.381 --> 11:45.402 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, it's not true. 11:45.802 --> 11:53.509 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, now, I agree that the virgin birth can be difficult to believe, especially when I was an atheist, I thought it was ridiculous. 11:54.090 --> 12:01.997 [SPEAKER_00]: Interestingly, even one of the greatest defenders of the faith in the world, Dr. William 12:01.977 --> 12:02.518 [SPEAKER_00]: Why? 12:02.658 --> 12:08.871 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he said, look, for Mary to get bird to a male child, she would have to have a white chromosome in her ovum. 12:09.051 --> 12:14.963 [SPEAKER_00]: Female has two X chromosome, you need a white chromosome, she wouldn't have it, and therefore it's impossible. 12:14.983 --> 12:21.657 [SPEAKER_00]: But then, when she began to think about it, he realized, wait a minute, what is the evidence for the creation of the entire universe? 12:21.637 --> 12:26.366 [SPEAKER_00]: The evidence points toward a divine creator who matches a description of the God of the Bible. 12:26.487 --> 12:40.234 [SPEAKER_00]: All of the characteristics that would have to be true of the cause behind the universe, point toward a supernatural creator and he said, well, wait a minute, if God created the universe, then creating a white chromosome in Mary's child's play. 12:40.334 --> 12:41.096 [SPEAKER_00]: That's nothing. 12:41.256 --> 12:42.278 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no problem there. 12:42.258 --> 13:02.241 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the third thing is a lot of skeptics will say, well, you know, Christians claim that the Virgin birth was predicted 700 years earlier in Isaiah and the Old Testament, Isaiah 714, but that's not accurate because the Greek, the Hebrew word that was used Alma does not necessarily mean Virgin, the word he 13:02.221 --> 13:17.732 [SPEAKER_00]: that they would have used as they meet Virgin, but Tula was not used, so then I'd be referring to a Virgin and besides which that prophecy related to King A has, who lived seven hundred years ago and it came true when a young maiden gave birth and King A has was rescued from his problem. 13:17.712 --> 13:25.102 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's all messed up, because there was no single word in ancient Hebrew that always meant virgin. 13:25.282 --> 13:26.504 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't have word for it. 13:26.524 --> 13:32.111 [SPEAKER_00]: Come on, the word this used means a young maiden and in that day young maiden was presumed to be a virgin. 13:32.292 --> 13:37.138 [SPEAKER_00]: The other word the skeptics suggest they used but Tula could meet a widow who would not be a virgin. 13:37.118 --> 13:39.062 [SPEAKER_00]: So, the best word was used. 13:39.083 --> 13:49.988 [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, before Jesus was even born, they translated the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek and the translators translated it as virgin because they recognized that that was the intent of the passage. 13:50.329 --> 13:52.714 [SPEAKER_00]: Was the passage intended for King A. Hayes? 13:52.694 --> 13:58.543 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and in some ways, or several verses there, King A has was of the house of David. 13:58.783 --> 14:01.808 [SPEAKER_00]: He was in trouble at the time, people were after trying to kill him. 14:02.108 --> 14:07.156 [SPEAKER_00]: If he had been killed, the line of David would have ended, and the Messiah could not have come out of the line of David. 14:07.176 --> 14:09.319 [SPEAKER_00]: So there is a Messianic context there. 14:09.299 --> 14:15.114 [SPEAKER_00]: And it takes place in a nest of messianic verses in Isaiah chapter 7. 14:15.154 --> 14:17.440 [SPEAKER_00]: It's talking about the coming of the Messiah. 14:17.841 --> 14:22.453 [SPEAKER_00]: In Isaiah chapter 9, the Messiah is born and is declared a mighty God. 14:22.493 --> 14:24.979 [SPEAKER_00]: And Isaiah chapter 11, 14:24.959 --> 14:27.104 [SPEAKER_00]: He is raining in the power of the Holy Spirit. 14:27.124 --> 14:29.790 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is a nest of messianic stuff there. 14:30.551 --> 14:37.086 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a double fulfillment of what is written there in the seventh chapter of Isaiah. 14:37.306 --> 14:41.736 [SPEAKER_00]: One fulfillment was in that day that 14:42.172 --> 14:46.640 [SPEAKER_00]: King A has would be rescued from the trouble he was in and he would be safe from that and he was. 14:46.980 --> 14:59.282 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a double meaning there, a double fulfillment, which is later, there would be the birth of the Messiah, and so the prediction of the virgin birth, I think, also is well established there. 14:59.622 --> 15:05.833 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, it is a issue that only two of the four gospels talk about the birth. 15:06.050 --> 15:12.077 [SPEAKER_00]: Only Matthew and Luke really have an account about the birth of Jesus and some people say, well, you know, why didn't the others? 15:12.457 --> 15:21.507 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, not every gospel reports, everything that everybody else has already reported or will report or whatever Mark starts his gospel later in the life of Jesus. 15:21.727 --> 15:35.803 [SPEAKER_00]: So he doesn't include the birth story, but interestingly, there is a passage in Mark where I think it's a Mark III, a Mark 7 verse three, where Mark, this of course, Mark is recalling the recollections of, 15:35.783 --> 15:37.267 [SPEAKER_00]: Peter who was in the inner circle. 15:37.507 --> 15:40.716 [SPEAKER_00]: He refers to Jesus as being Mary's son. 15:40.776 --> 15:42.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you wouldn't do that into his culture. 15:42.681 --> 15:45.047 [SPEAKER_00]: It always be the Father, always be Joseph's son. 15:45.127 --> 15:51.463 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if Joseph were deceased at the time, you would always refer to the child as the Father's son as Joseph's son. 15:51.443 --> 16:12.878 [SPEAKER_00]: E in Mark 7 3 he refers to Jesus as Maryson and to me that's kind of a wink to the fact that yeah, yeah, I know this was an unusual birth that Joseph was not his natural father and then of course John has just the Elijah he doesn't repeat a lot of things that were written in the synoptic Gospels Matthew Mark and Luke he takes just the Elijah goal. 16:12.858 --> 16:20.152 [SPEAKER_00]: and he talks about in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, and the word comes into our world and dwells among us. 16:20.172 --> 16:22.276 [SPEAKER_00]: So he talks about this incarnation. 16:22.657 --> 16:27.867 [SPEAKER_00]: But interestingly, Mark had a disciple. 16:28.228 --> 16:29.149 [SPEAKER_00]: His name was Ignatius. 16:29.510 --> 16:32.115 [SPEAKER_00]: Ignatius learned everything he knew from 16:32.095 --> 16:38.964 [SPEAKER_00]: John, and Ignatius was going to be murdered, going to be murdered by the Romans, and they're taking him to Rome. 16:39.645 --> 16:44.392 [SPEAKER_00]: And during that, I'm a being transported to Rome, and the year 108, he wrote six letters. 16:45.093 --> 16:53.084 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of those letters, Ignatius says that Jesus quote, was really and truly born of a virgin. 16:53.504 --> 16:54.446 [SPEAKER_00]: Or did he learn that? 16:54.726 --> 16:57.229 [SPEAKER_00]: I think if it's from his mentor, I think it was John. 16:57.249 --> 16:57.850 [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting. 16:57.890 --> 16:59.132 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't heard that one before. 16:59.112 --> 17:22.099 [SPEAKER_01]: I love how when I think it's so important to study the culture of the Bible, you know, like you know what was actually happening in those times because then it all starts to come together a little more and some of those questions are kind of naturally answered the ones that we have because we so often look through the at the Bible through an American lens in 2025 and then it doesn't make any sense and or 17:22.079 --> 17:23.984 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we kind of put our own frame on it. 17:24.004 --> 17:27.773 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, that might actually not be what Jesus was saying there. 17:28.214 --> 17:33.286 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just when you put it into that time in that culture, you're like, okay, now I understand. 17:33.787 --> 17:35.171 [SPEAKER_01]: That was hard to do. 17:35.211 --> 17:35.532 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:36.093 --> 17:36.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:36.414 --> 17:38.198 [SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate all that insight. 17:38.701 --> 17:49.180 [SPEAKER_00]: and we know you know someone like Luke you talk about putting into their culture Luke and when he wrote his gospel that includes his detail story about the virgin birth and so forth. 17:49.200 --> 17:53.829 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't he didn't say once upon a time in some village far far away. 17:53.869 --> 17:55.191 [SPEAKER_00]: He said you know 17:55.171 --> 18:00.239 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I wrote an orderly account about the certainty of what took place. 18:00.279 --> 18:03.824 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to give you a clear account of reporting of what actually, of course. 18:03.844 --> 18:06.869 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's claiming anyway that he's actually reporting history. 18:06.889 --> 18:12.437 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting that his gospel account of the birth of Jesus is written from Mary's perspective. 18:12.417 --> 18:13.058 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh. 18:13.078 --> 18:17.626 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you notice Mary is mentioned more in Luke's account than in Matthew's account. 18:18.287 --> 18:20.150 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe he interviewed Mary. 18:20.350 --> 18:25.178 [SPEAKER_00]: If not, he probably interviewed Joanne and Susanna who we also mentioned in his gospel. 18:25.538 --> 18:29.565 [SPEAKER_00]: Matthew, on the other hand, writes his perspective about the birth of Jesus. 18:29.545 --> 18:32.267 [SPEAKER_00]: from Joseph's perspective, and you say, why is that? 18:32.287 --> 18:36.471 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Matthew later went on to become a leader of the church in Jerusalem, and guess what? 18:36.511 --> 18:40.214 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the other leaders was James, the half brother of Jesus. 18:40.535 --> 18:48.562 [SPEAKER_00]: So he probably related to Matthew, a lot of what took place in the family, maybe from Joseph's father's perspective, of what took place back then. 18:48.602 --> 18:58.911 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have two accounts that are not contradictory, but they show their independent, and so that gives us confident we have two independent sources of this birth story. 18:58.891 --> 18:59.211 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:59.532 --> 19:04.960 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you ask any husband and wife about a birth story, it's going to be totally different. 19:05.000 --> 19:05.661 [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. 19:06.001 --> 19:08.104 [SPEAKER_00]: I never thought of that, but you're exactly right. 19:08.124 --> 19:09.426 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very good point. 19:09.647 --> 19:09.887 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:10.167 --> 19:14.974 [SPEAKER_01]: I can give a lot more details in a very different way than my husband can about all your work. 19:14.994 --> 19:18.419 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a very, that's a very good, I never thought of that. 19:18.580 --> 19:20.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for saying that. 19:20.142 --> 19:20.863 [SPEAKER_00]: That's very good. 19:21.083 --> 19:21.283 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:21.484 --> 19:22.325 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's interesting. 19:22.525 --> 19:23.026 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 19:23.046 --> 19:28.594 [SPEAKER_01]: Back to one more question. 19:28.574 --> 19:31.757 [SPEAKER_01]: How old do you think Jesus was when the wise men came? 19:31.797 --> 19:35.561 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, was he, like a baby, was he ever closer to two? 19:36.202 --> 19:37.523 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's a good question. 19:38.284 --> 19:39.224 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know exactly. 19:39.305 --> 19:46.592 [SPEAKER_00]: The Bible is not really crystal clear about the magic and who they were and exactly where they were coming from and so forth. 19:46.772 --> 19:48.874 [SPEAKER_00]: It certainly took time for them to get there. 19:48.894 --> 19:53.539 [SPEAKER_00]: They were probably more than three of them because you had to have a care of aunt to go there at distance. 19:53.999 --> 19:57.062 [SPEAKER_00]: So probably more than three of them. 19:57.295 --> 20:13.498 [SPEAKER_00]: I think when King Herod went to murder all the children in Bethlehem, the boys, under the age of two, that's a hint that he was making sure that, you know, kids under that age were killed because he saw them as potential threat. 20:13.478 --> 20:18.825 [SPEAKER_00]: and probably indicates that, you know, it was within the first two years that the magic probably would have come. 20:19.306 --> 20:20.567 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know exactly when. 20:20.668 --> 20:26.475 [SPEAKER_00]: Since you're seeing it says, you know, when you talk about the Christmas star, you know that Jesus was going to be born in Bethlehem because it was before cast. 20:26.555 --> 20:29.459 [SPEAKER_00]: It was predicted in Micah 5 verse 2. 20:30.140 --> 20:42.777 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's interesting when you read carefully the account, it says, the phenomena is phenomena. 20:42.757 --> 20:53.592 [SPEAKER_00]: But then say, Bethlehem right there says he where he was might have gone to Maseroth by that time, that the wiseman came, I don't know, I think it was probably still in Bethlehem. 20:53.932 --> 20:56.836 [SPEAKER_00]: But so we don't know the exact timing of it. 20:57.096 --> 21:08.292 [SPEAKER_00]: We do believe that the star that's referenced, the Greek word there is flexible enough to mean either a star, a planet, a comet, could mean it's a celestial phenomenon, kind of thing. 21:08.512 --> 21:10.755 [SPEAKER_00]: One astrophysicist, 21:10.735 --> 21:16.724 [SPEAKER_00]: who I got to know, who was an atheist, by the way, until she studied the story of Jesus and now was a strong Christian. 21:16.904 --> 21:23.374 [SPEAKER_00]: She, her theory is that the star that guided the wise men was a Nova, or a supernova. 21:23.394 --> 21:31.566 [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason she says it is a supernova is a star that burns brighter for a while, and then dimmer, and then brighter for a while, and then dimmer. 21:31.767 --> 21:33.910 [SPEAKER_00]: And the average person would not have noticed this. 21:34.090 --> 21:37.215 [SPEAKER_00]: You and I, we wouldn't have noticed the star getting a little bright. 21:37.195 --> 21:43.290 [SPEAKER_00]: But if the wise men were astrologers as we believe they were and studied the stars, they would have noticed that. 21:43.310 --> 21:47.881 [SPEAKER_00]: And they would have noticed what constellation it was in and what message that was sending and so forth. 21:47.901 --> 21:54.377 [SPEAKER_00]: So she theorizes that it was a probably a Nova that guided them whenever that is that they did arrive. 21:54.357 --> 22:00.284 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing about the match-eye that I hadn't really thought of this, I was reading a Theologian, even a really good point about the match-eye. 22:00.624 --> 22:12.838 [SPEAKER_00]: He said it was the understanding of the Jewish people of the time that the Messiah would be a political Messiah, that he would overthrow the Romans and he would elevate the Jewish nation above other nations, and they would kind of rule everybody. 22:13.038 --> 22:21.748 [SPEAKER_00]: But what the match-eye shows is that even the Gentiles, even the pagans, were coming to worship the Christ's child. 22:21.728 --> 22:28.805 [SPEAKER_00]: And that says he is not just the Messiah for the Jewish people, he is the Messiah for everyone. 22:29.427 --> 22:35.121 [SPEAKER_00]: Even these, even these pagans, even these, these magic who came, even these Gentiles. 22:35.762 --> 22:38.910 [SPEAKER_00]: And it expands our understanding. 22:38.890 --> 22:48.325 [SPEAKER_00]: of the mission of Jesus to come into our world as a Messiah that it was not just for the Jewish people, it was for them, but it is for us to it is for the Gentiles as well. 22:48.345 --> 22:53.073 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's an interesting perspective to think about when we think about the magic coming. 22:53.333 --> 22:54.655 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 22:54.635 --> 22:59.840 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess my final kind of question to wrap up these thoughts is like, does this matter? 23:00.060 --> 23:06.587 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it doesn't matter if Jesus was a newborn or a toddler when men came and it doesn't matter who they were. 23:06.727 --> 23:09.610 [SPEAKER_01]: And how do we then talk to our kids about that? 23:09.630 --> 23:18.799 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, emphasizing that the Christmas story is true, reading those sweet little children's books, but then, you know, saying, Jesus, God and Carnot was born on this earth's bare savior. 23:18.860 --> 23:19.360 [SPEAKER_01]: But they're, 23:19.340 --> 23:30.613 [SPEAKER_01]: some confusing parts and may not quite be what's shown in those books like how do we talk to them about that and encourage them and just eventually kind of talk about how cool it is that it comes together in this way. 23:30.994 --> 23:40.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes and I think it's okay to say you know we can use our imaginations a little because not all the details are given to us so we can kind of fill that out 23:40.805 --> 23:51.715 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, with our imagination, it's okay, and it's consistent with our understanding of, you know, what went on and so forth, even Santa Claus, you know, people, parents say, what do I do with Santa Claus? 23:51.835 --> 24:07.470 [SPEAKER_00]: He's ubiquitous, he's everywhere at Christmas, and how do I avoid my kids getting sucked into that commercialization kind of thing with Santa, and I like to say, you know, I like to be honest with kids and say, you know, Santa's a fun idea and a fun figure, and we can 24:07.450 --> 24:12.036 [SPEAKER_00]: enjoy our imagination and Santa Claus and North Pole and all this stuff. 24:12.116 --> 24:13.157 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know what? 24:13.498 --> 24:15.340 [SPEAKER_00]: It is based on something that's true. 24:15.681 --> 24:17.183 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a Saint Nicholas. 24:17.543 --> 24:20.387 [SPEAKER_00]: And Saint Nicholas was a wonderful, wonderful person. 24:20.607 --> 24:26.415 [SPEAKER_00]: He was born in 270 AD, many, many, you know, long, long, long time ago. 24:26.935 --> 24:28.878 [SPEAKER_00]: And he became a Christian. 24:29.038 --> 24:30.680 [SPEAKER_00]: He became from a wealthy family. 24:30.880 --> 24:36.107 [SPEAKER_00]: But he became a Christian and leader, 24:36.087 --> 24:37.489 [SPEAKER_00]: and he was so generous. 24:37.549 --> 24:43.356 [SPEAKER_00]: He gave away his wealth and there's a story and it's written 500 years after he died. 24:43.857 --> 24:52.108 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's maybe it's more fanciful that there were three girls who were the daughters of a guy who lost his job. 24:52.128 --> 25:03.883 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't have any money and in those days you had to give money a dowry to someone to marry your daughter and if they didn't have that you would never get married. 25:03.863 --> 25:17.033 [SPEAKER_00]: St. Nicholas was going down the street and he had some gold coins and he threw them up into the window of the oldest daughter so that she could have a dowry so that she could get married and have your childrens. 25:17.193 --> 25:23.307 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it came time for her sister to get married and he had some gold coins and he came and he threw those up again. 25:23.287 --> 25:25.470 [SPEAKER_00]: and the second daughter got married. 25:25.790 --> 25:27.612 [SPEAKER_00]: The third daughter wanted to get married. 25:27.953 --> 25:29.314 [SPEAKER_00]: And now the father's suspicious. 25:29.374 --> 25:30.676 [SPEAKER_00]: Something's going on here. 25:30.696 --> 25:31.977 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know what's happening. 25:32.338 --> 25:33.940 [SPEAKER_00]: So he kind of state things out. 25:34.500 --> 25:37.764 [SPEAKER_00]: And he catches Nicholas with the coins. 25:37.784 --> 25:39.667 [SPEAKER_00]: And Nicholas says, hey, don't say anything. 25:39.887 --> 25:41.168 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't tell anybody about this. 25:41.509 --> 25:46.695 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just, you know, and he throws the coins up and the third daughter gets married as well. 25:46.675 --> 25:53.408 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the medieval times, some of the paintings of the story included stockings that were hung on the chimney to dry at night. 25:54.029 --> 25:57.976 [SPEAKER_00]: And the story became that the coins entered, you know, fell into the stockings. 25:58.057 --> 26:01.984 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's where that idea came of hanging stockings at Christmas. 26:01.964 --> 26:10.579 [SPEAKER_00]: But to say, we don't know if that's true about Saint Nicholas, but what we do know is he was very generous, he was very loving, but he also stood up to what was true. 26:10.779 --> 26:14.265 [SPEAKER_00]: He defended his faith, he didn't just believe it, he defended it. 26:14.726 --> 26:19.855 [SPEAKER_00]: Now there was a guy who brought up some false things about God. 26:19.835 --> 26:27.164 [SPEAKER_00]: His name was Aarius, and he was trying to say things that weren't true about God, and Nicholas stood up to him. 26:27.785 --> 26:31.289 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a story that he actually slapped him, but that's probably not true. 26:31.590 --> 26:40.621 [SPEAKER_00]: But he stood up for truth, and he was arrested by the government for being a Christian, and he was treated very badly in prison. 26:41.061 --> 26:41.302 [SPEAKER_00]: Why? 26:41.322 --> 26:43.204 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he stood up for what he believed. 26:43.224 --> 26:44.686 [SPEAKER_00]: So he was a man of generosity. 26:45.006 --> 26:46.568 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a man of truth. 26:46.548 --> 26:59.827 [SPEAKER_00]: and he died on December the 19th in, you know, I don't know the year, but he died on on December the 19th and people began giving gifts on that day because of his generosity. 26:59.907 --> 27:10.902 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're a member of St. Nicholas, so in December the 19th, we'll give gifts to people and it was Martin Luther who moved that tradition to Christmas, the gift giving tradition to Christmas. 27:10.882 --> 27:19.093 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he was the first one to take the St. Nicholas gift-giving tradition and move it to the Christmas of the Christmas story of Jesus. 27:19.113 --> 27:21.056 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we give gifts on Christmas. 27:21.416 --> 27:22.958 [SPEAKER_00]: So there is some great history there. 27:22.998 --> 27:31.510 [SPEAKER_00]: We can talk about and let them see Santa Claus as kind of a figure, a fanciful figure, but representing something that's true and something that's real. 27:31.750 --> 27:37.378 [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, the story of Santa 27:37.358 --> 27:41.663 [SPEAKER_00]: They kind of developed that story in the 1800s and it came over to the United States. 27:42.003 --> 28:04.547 [SPEAKER_00]: But what's funny is this picture of Santa Claus as wearing a white red suit and with white cuffs and a big beard and all that stuff, that actually can be traced back to the nice when Coca-Cola Company did a big print ad in magazines and everything about Christmas coming up 28:04.527 --> 28:14.098 [SPEAKER_00]: as Santa Claus looking that way and to do this day, that's what people picture when they picture Santa Claus in August back to a Coca-Cola ad back in the 1930s. 28:14.399 --> 28:17.383 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it wasn't Rudolph, like a washing machine or something. 28:17.784 --> 28:20.247 [SPEAKER_00]: There's all these things that kind of got old at it. 28:20.367 --> 28:27.076 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, in the 1800s there's a story, a poem that was written the night before Christmas, and that kind of talked about Santa Claus and so forth. 28:27.096 --> 28:29.740 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'd like to point kids, you know, we can have fun with all that. 28:29.840 --> 28:32.724 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's nothing wrong with using our imagination. 28:32.924 --> 28:34.786 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, but there is a truth there. 28:34.827 --> 28:36.028 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a Saint Nicholas. 28:36.048 --> 28:36.889 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a great man. 28:36.969 --> 28:38.051 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a generous man. 28:38.071 --> 28:39.132 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a kind man. 28:39.152 --> 28:40.254 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a Christian man. 28:40.734 --> 28:44.119 [SPEAKER_00]: And he stood up for the truth. 28:44.504 --> 28:44.824 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:45.045 --> 28:50.712 [SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of children's books actually that do tell the story of St. Nicholas and for my kids when they were younger. 28:50.792 --> 28:53.156 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, everyone asked like, what do we do about Santa? 28:53.336 --> 28:57.381 [SPEAKER_01]: We, I mean, my kids are older now, but we, we always do Santa because Santa is really fun. 28:57.762 --> 28:58.843 [SPEAKER_01]: My guy just think it's really fun. 28:58.943 --> 28:59.925 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really whimsome. 28:59.965 --> 29:00.405 [SPEAKER_01]: It's great. 29:00.545 --> 29:01.587 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's, it's fun. 29:02.047 --> 29:07.395 [SPEAKER_01]: But we always had those books around that told them what it was and you'll never lie to them about it. 29:07.415 --> 29:10.439 [SPEAKER_01]: Like when it is soon as our oldest asked is Santa real. 29:10.459 --> 29:12.942 [SPEAKER_01]: We were like, well, no. 29:12.922 --> 29:38.440 [SPEAKER_01]: remember that story like there was a say Nicholas yeah we're like remember that story read both a Nicholas like that's what it is and then we've always emphasized back to that generosity like he was generous because he loved Jesus because we love Jesus we get to be generous and now we would love for you to help us surprise your brother and sister within you get to be generous with us and like invite them in to that tradition and it's so fun excellent that's 29:38.420 --> 29:39.842 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they still to this day. 29:39.862 --> 29:43.648 [SPEAKER_01]: I get everything for their stockings, but they all like rotate. 29:43.728 --> 29:46.712 [SPEAKER_01]: Like one kid comes down and fills up one sibling stockings. 29:46.992 --> 29:51.339 [SPEAKER_01]: They often like rotate and they all get to do it and we have hot chocolate and it's it's a full tradition. 29:51.559 --> 29:52.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's awesome. 29:52.661 --> 29:53.201 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love that. 29:53.221 --> 29:59.230 [SPEAKER_00]: And as long as we keep Jesus is a center of it, it's fun to have fun with your kids around Christmas time. 29:59.210 --> 30:02.895 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait for great guy, I'm, you know, my grandkids are getting old. 30:02.975 --> 30:09.223 [SPEAKER_00]: They're 2018 and, and love and I may be a great grandfather in five or six years. 30:09.283 --> 30:13.088 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm, I'm looking forward to doing this all over again with the little and little ones. 30:13.228 --> 30:22.119 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just like ultimate spoiling because you can have fun as a parent, but sometimes you forget to have fun because it's, it's so tiring and it's a grandpa, you get to like really do it. 30:22.139 --> 30:24.202 [SPEAKER_01]: And now, a great grandpa, you, they're in no rules. 30:24.823 --> 30:26.105 [SPEAKER_00]: But you can get ready to have an arrow. 30:26.845 --> 30:27.466 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 30:27.867 --> 30:28.828 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 30:29.602 --> 30:30.543 [SPEAKER_01]: that's awesome. 30:30.563 --> 30:37.413 [SPEAKER_01]: So what is just kind of to wrap us up like what is your ultimate hope for believing family is during this Christmas season? 30:37.973 --> 30:39.876 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I hope it does point to Jesus. 30:39.956 --> 30:47.646 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope it points to the hope of the world and you know and the fact that Jesus did not just come into our world to show us how to live a good life which he did. 30:47.666 --> 30:54.816 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean when you read the sermon on the mountain you read the teachings of Jesus has profound its power for it's 30:54.796 --> 31:03.446 [SPEAKER_00]: He showed us how we should live or we all fall short of that, but he came into our world ultimately to pay the penalty for our sin. 31:03.706 --> 31:16.821 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, without Easter, Christmas kind of fades away with Easter, with the fact that God paid the penalty, we deserve for the sins that we've committed offers for a given us eternal life as a free gift of His grace. 31:16.801 --> 31:25.333 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he died and then returned from the dead, conquered death and all things open the door of heaven to all who follow him, that's the fulfillment of the story. 31:25.673 --> 31:33.384 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I hope we celebrate the birth of Jesus and it's great with kids and let them enjoy the season and make it a great family time. 31:33.404 --> 31:38.631 [SPEAKER_00]: I always suggest reading the Christmas account, you know, there's a family and Christmas Eve. 31:38.851 --> 31:45.981 [SPEAKER_00]: I did a book called the Case for Christmas that goes into a lot of stuff about it that might be fun. 31:45.961 --> 31:54.028 [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus is not just a story, he's real, and ultimately he is the answer to the hope that we have for our eternity. 31:54.048 --> 31:55.590 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you so much. 31:55.670 --> 31:58.592 [SPEAKER_01]: I will link keys for Christmas that everyone can find it really easily. 31:58.672 --> 32:00.214 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great one to read. 32:00.234 --> 32:01.875 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really fantastic. 32:02.015 --> 32:03.237 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for doing. 32:03.277 --> 32:05.078 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been given him away this Christmas season. 32:05.098 --> 32:07.320 [SPEAKER_00]: I bought 300 copies myself to give away. 32:07.681 --> 32:15.968 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been given him away wherever I go restaurants and doctors offices and flight attendants and clerks and hotels. 32:15.948 --> 32:18.511 [SPEAKER_00]: People are so happy to get a book. 32:18.551 --> 32:19.452 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny. 32:19.773 --> 32:22.316 [SPEAKER_00]: My wife just gave, she had a doctor's appointment. 32:22.837 --> 32:24.378 [SPEAKER_00]: And there are 12 people in the office. 32:24.399 --> 32:26.661 [SPEAKER_00]: She took 12 copies and gave one to everybody. 32:26.721 --> 32:29.845 [SPEAKER_00]: And people are, oh, a book. 32:29.885 --> 32:30.887 [SPEAKER_00]: I love to read. 32:31.467 --> 32:33.149 [SPEAKER_00]: People just really appreciate that. 32:33.250 --> 32:34.091 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a simple book. 32:34.211 --> 32:36.794 [SPEAKER_00]: It's 222,000 words. 32:36.814 --> 32:37.975 [SPEAKER_00]: You can read it in a couple hours. 32:38.716 --> 32:42.581 [SPEAKER_00]: And people really appreciate getting something like that in Christmas. 32:42.601 --> 32:45.685 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a really Christmas gift. 32:45.665 --> 32:46.687 [SPEAKER_01]: Especially unexpected. 32:47.229 --> 32:48.351 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that you're doing that. 32:48.391 --> 32:49.053 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so fun. 32:50.176 --> 32:53.122 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I will link it and show notes that everyone can get their own copy. 32:53.162 --> 32:58.375 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a few extras to give away if they're feeling like it and I can't wait to have you on again. 32:58.415 --> 32:59.297 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 32:59.337 --> 33:02.524 [SPEAKER_00]: Great to see you in blessings on you, this Christmas and all your viewers. 33:02.825 --> 33:03.707 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 33:05.408 --> 33:06.972 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining us today. 33:06.992 --> 33:12.967 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that this conversation encourages you to look at the Christmas story with fresh eyes and renewed wonder. 33:13.488 --> 33:16.836 [SPEAKER_01]: More than anything, I hope that reminds you that Jesus came for you. 33:16.897 --> 33:22.270 [SPEAKER_01]: He loves you and he is the hope our families can hold on to in every single season. 33:22.250 --> 33:29.581 [SPEAKER_01]: If you enjoyed this episode, take a quick second to like, subscribe, leave a review, it helps more parents by the encouragement they need right here. 33:29.961 --> 33:38.614 [SPEAKER_01]: I will link least book the case for Christmas in the show now, it's a grab one for yourself, maybe a few to give away, just like he is, it's such an easy way to share the hope of Jesus this season. 33:39.275 --> 33:41.298 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again for listening, may God bless you. 33:41.759 --> 33:46.806 [SPEAKER_01]: May your home be filled with peace, joy, and the presence of Jesus as you celebrate his birth.