[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: welcome to the horror hounds podcast where the lore hounds your guides to small town terrors.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Alicia.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm Mark from Nevermind the Music.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is our coverage of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to Dairy on HBO Max or if you're listening in a future maybe HBO Max slash Netflix slash Paramount.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[UNKNOWN]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, too soon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's very in the middle is what it is, not even soon.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, these networks are dying like Pennywise's in town.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you want to get into contact with us in an email to horror at thelorhounds.com or head to our Discord server from the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you like what you've heard and want to support us, I get ad free bonus content.
[SPEAKER_01]: Check the same link tree for our Patreon or supercast subscription options.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, folks, we are here for the penultimate episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can finally say that and not make up penultimate penultimate.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have some hot ticks for you, so Mark, you wanna start off?
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure, yeah, I mostly was down with this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I enjoyed it as much as it was a real bummer.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really was not happy to see my man rich go down that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think this is one of those episodes that's,
[SPEAKER_04]: you can appreciate how distressing things are to watch and how stressful it is and how sad it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And appreciate it and feel like, wow, good job.
[SPEAKER_04]: And also kind of hate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I was, I'm kind of mad about that scene and I'm mad as a fan, but I'm also like, there's a couple questions I have, but like, why do you have to go down that way?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's painful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mostly I like this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will quibble, I'm sure, with some things later on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Opening up a lot of, I don't know what's happening next, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: We know it or Pennywise is not free across the entire Earth come 1985, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, or whatever, whatever the exact date of the 2017 film is.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, how exactly is this going to wrap up?
[SPEAKER_04]: I am super interested to see looking forward to talking about it also.
[SPEAKER_03]: very cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you bring up rich.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw a tick-tock edit where somebody put the sinners ending monologue, writing dialogue over rich.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, before the someone down, that was the greatest day of my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew that was going to get a leash, so when I told her about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: because at least is a big sitter's fan.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mark of using centers.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I think that was that comparison was hurtling towards us when we learned that the black spot was the centerpiece of this season, I think.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, that's it's too soon for the jokes, though.
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Poor Rich.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, Rich, the fact that they centered on him last episode, right, and that he had, you know, like I said, you kind of can apply even without the comparison of two speak easy as basically, you can, you can apply that to Rich's arc.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, that was that was the best day of my life before the sun went down like he's playing the drums with the full band and people are cheering for him He's getting air force coke.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's, you know, he's hanging with his friends all day.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, right for the first time He and he and a murderer are like hidden it off and man.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think I think they did a really great job Setting that up to be a big loss like a moment to kill us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and overall, I guess I'm kind of segue into my hot takes, but overall, I just think that they really nailed the Bob Gray stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I heard that Stephen King approved them doing all that, so that's cool, because Mark correct me for a long time.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't really get much Bob Gray in the book, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just referred to.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, you all have read it more recently.
[SPEAKER_04]: The mainly solutions further in, I think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's really just backstory.
[SPEAKER_04]: You hear about it from,
[SPEAKER_04]: Demon, Mrs. Kersh, it's sort of some somebody that I think, correct me if I'm wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think Pennywise will refer to himself by that name sometimes, but it's, yeah, nothing like this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I should have included that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that was, I have Quibbles about my, my man rich going down at the end, but I don't have a lot of Quibbles about the 1908 stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought that was really awesome to see Skars Garden in
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that yeah, Bill Skarsguard is really a horror actor of our generation and he, he will go down as one of the legends he's going to go down as a barist car a lot if you don't even mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I hope that people see this and just think, well, I do have to say he is doing leading roles at the same time in other movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been quite busy, but I hope people look at this and say that it's not just that he's not just a horror actor, but like in order to do this, like the fact that we saw him in this episode play,
[SPEAKER_01]: Bob Gray, behind the scenes with his daughter, on the stage, entertaining the kids, being a depressed, widower alcoholic in the woods, and then an entity that steals that identity and uses all those different aspects as well, to mess with his daughter, to mess with the
[SPEAKER_01]: feels like a completely different person who's somehow making the same moves but with a different intention like he's still doing the John T walk, but in one it's it's innocent and pure and the other it's terrifying and malevolent.
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love how it, I love how it saw the Pennywise Walker was like, oh, I'm taking that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is stylish.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we can talk about this, but Bob Gray isn't innocent in pure though, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like believable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please, but you're on stage, I was saying yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, the children love him and then you see, see behind his eyes, he's a good dad and he's all torn up and broken like that's a great great what 10 minutes of screen time maybe we get and then later in the episode we get is their face on my face like we get the opposite.
[SPEAKER_04]: kind of corruption of that, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so it's like his delivery is just so, like dripping with sarcasm, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, like, what a, what an amazing portrayal of Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just, I know, I love Tim Curry, but I haven't seen his full, it movie, but from the clips I've seen, like, I don't know, there's just something that Bill Skars guard.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of like, people say about, let's stop, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom Cruise.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tom Cruise was a good actor for Listot, but Sam read his possessed by Listot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel the same way about the Pennywise actors is that Tim Curry was a great actor for Listot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Although, wouldn't that be fun?
[SPEAKER_03]: Tim Cruise was a great actor for Pennywise, but Pennywise is possessing Bill Skarsguard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the physical acting is just so impressive, you know, just it's not just about how he emotes with his face or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just every little muscle of his body, he adjusts to all these different iterations of the character, just like throw Emmys at this man, come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are we doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: at the risk of, you know, trampling was still haven't even heard at least his hot take.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, sorry.
[SPEAKER_04]: We didn't get him for the first, what, four episodes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure there were a lot of people kind of like where his Pennywise, but to get him in such a kind of full feature way near the end of this season.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it was important that they save it because I could you imagine if you were kind of over Pennywise when you got to this episode, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're like, oh, here we go, like, whereas, because I think it is a lot, I think that I said the, is our face on my face line, like, it's really fun, but it's also pretty stupid and so if you were, it's like, it's a little bit like, whoah, in the middle of it, and like, is Pennywise have a sense of humor, this creature, like, maybe, maybe not, but he said it, like,
[SPEAKER_04]: If we were already used to it by the time this episode came, it would have really taken away the magic of seeing him with visible makeup on and the nuances of him as a human being, not him, but the source material, so to speak, so it was
[SPEAKER_04]: In retrospect, I think to folks that maybe were inpatient, there wasn't enough it in the first half of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: The series, this might be the justification for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fair enough.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alicia, I have been hogging the hot take time, so go for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I just, I think, you know, you already brought up rich.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am glad that I
[SPEAKER_01]: predicted that it was going to go down like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did feel when it happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I do have I like my only quibbles with this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think this is the best episode of the season as a lot of people have been saying my only quibbles with it do revolve around little.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, things about the moment like should rich have been able to breathe well enough to confess his love to march at that moment like, you know, probably not, but it made me cry so well, allow it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just was completely moved by this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It hit to all of my emotional
[SPEAKER_01]: I just seeing, it's a fact that this was the pen ultimate episode, and there's still one more episode left, is blowing my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are also leaning more into just creating it, making it more and more unsettling atmosphere, like, you know, talked about the intro picking up sounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: as it as the weeks go on and definitely notice that obviously more than ever this time but I'm also wondering like is it more tilted than ever to faster?
[SPEAKER_01]: It just feels like things are going off the rails in a very orchestrated way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I've been noticing, I don't know if you guys have encountered this, but a lot of stranger things comparisons online, and I, you know, have watched the first half of the stranger things season, and there's definite Stephen King inspirations going on there.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's always been the case there, and they even put thin wolf hard in both, so like, it's okay, it's kind of hard to avoid the stranger things comparisons, but We won up so deep so far, so okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, no spoilers or anything, but it is something I've seen a lot of people bringing up online is, you know, there seems to be everyone picking sides for some reason between these two, and if we have to do that then fine, I'll say,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I understand why people like stranger things because it may have the lazy or writing, but it does leave you with that sort of emblem, you know, Steven Spielberg feeling that everything's going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is, this is welcome to Dary.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's definitely not that kind of story.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, you're going to leave traumatized.
[SPEAKER_01]: right in this episode was a prime example I mean they did a great job like in terms of making us all fall in love with the character so everyone crying about rich um yeah that's it and I feel great for the kid who played rich that he played such a memorable role and I really hope to see him another thing because he just has such great comedic timing and uh a charm and yeah he's going to be a great actor and love to see more of him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he was 10 when they were filming.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Marge was 14 and 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for him, it's, I mean, first of all, she did a very good job like aging herself down, but he was, I mean, 10 years old you're acting like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He did a great job because he's funny, but not like one line or jokes.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's just like, got a fun kind of charisma to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got that taste in timing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alicia, you don't want your hot takes?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: And let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go right into the episode for a picture of Robert Gray.
[SPEAKER_03]: In 1908, Bob Gray performs his act as Pennywise, the dancing clown for a delighted crowd of children, a spooky child watches him from the window of a nearby building.
[SPEAKER_03]: After the show, he tells his daughter, Ingrid, that he hopes to return to the circus.
[SPEAKER_03]: She surprises him with her own clown costume and he names her periwinkle, which was her late mother's stage name, then asks her to show him the bow.
[SPEAKER_03]: A proud father embraces his daughter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Later on, the mysterious child reappears to lure Bob Gray into the woods and steal his identity.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ingrid learns her father has died.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great Impression, by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Show me the bow.
[SPEAKER_03]: The way that Bill Skars' guard moves his mouth to play.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who was?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is just like, who would think of that?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what acting from a person on a level where a normal person couldn't do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to have your own creativity to come up with the mouth shapes to act like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was saying before, it's like he has extra muscles and his lips or something the way he can move his mouth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also just, you know, want to lavish some praise on the production design of this show because we haven't done that enough, but even just details like the warm lighting of the circus at night in the 1908 flashback, it's just a stunning series.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not finding any LEDs there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just love the details like the, of the character design with, you know, the fact Bob Gray is wearing this, this bald cap with, um, the wig and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it creates this extra large head shape, which Pennywise copies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just absolutely loved the details like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And did you guys notice that Andy Musquietti was back as the organ grinder?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I didn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, let's see, playing the piano in an earlier episode or something like that, or let's see, you play in the organ.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think he was doing the organ.
[SPEAKER_01]: Same thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the circus scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when they went into the tent thing, where...
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: There we go.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I looked, by the way, I looked into, and maybe the hive mine has discovered the since the day I watched the episode, but Santini Brothers Carnival, I don't believe that is a thing in Stephen King in the larger mythos.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it's our reference.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think there's a lot of stuff set in that era, though, understandably, we could also think of this as sort of parallel to the late.
[SPEAKER_04]: 18 hundreds if we were going to shift everything earlier 30 years, but yeah, I think it's just the name.
[SPEAKER_04]: If anybody's wondering, tell me I'm wrong, Rita Reborn.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're the one who would know, I think of the discord community the most Stephen King books under your belt.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if anybody saw any different.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a question about Ingrid.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why would she stay in dairy after this happened?
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, is it just did someone did she immediately just get put in a, you know, a foster home or, I guess, back then, likely an orphanage was she just kind of left to her.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's old enough, maybe she's like 12 or something up.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're on your own now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it almost seems like, um,
[SPEAKER_04]: like it's it's not the first choice for her probably to just stay in this town that killed her dad, but losing presumably the carnival moved on you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but she seemed to have clung to hope that he somehow survived in some form.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you have four she saw this Pennywise version.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know because didn't she say something about the fact that she
[SPEAKER_01]: She just ended up there.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: She ended up at the place she would work.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I was under the understanding that the 1930s moment was when she realized her dad was alive as opposed to back then that she had some hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, she thought that was her first penny was sighting, but I think I think Alicia's right that there was some hope there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, you know, Alicia, were you the one who said this, that like, yeah, maybe she just didn't have the means, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she's a kid, and she's stuck in dairy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's just what happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people, a lot of people stay where they live because they just don't have the money to move somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, but like, I guess, as opposed to where she lives.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, if they had some, let's say they're, they live in St. Louis, or something like, well, you're going back, you know, dropping you off on the way back, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Their home was the carnival.
[SPEAKER_04]: My be yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love, by the way, the carnival.
[SPEAKER_01]: It took me a beat to realize what was going on, but the fact that his entire clown show, which is to entertain kids, it's a very sad clown show.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all about his wife dying.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like that's the interesting thing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like Pennywise was this great clown.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just that, first of all, like, you know, there's no TV, there's no move, you know, not that entertain these kids back then.
[SPEAKER_03]: So any moving around thing is very entertaining for kids, but he's a great clown just a sad clown.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fair enough, I just, it's dark, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, there's already dark emotions, least into the silliness.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I wonder if that's why it was so drawn to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yes, we have that image of the boy who's clearly the entity in, you know, watching from a distance from that window and then the range of Bill Skarsguard, they really de-aged him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, seeing this clown perform on stage and seeing that, you know, I can imagine if the entity is appearing as this child and approaching other children, the
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, this kid's off, not really in game, and then meanwhile you see this clown finished a show and all these children rush the stage to be closer to this clown and that's like, whoa, that's interesting, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, somebody pointed out on, I think there was a reddit or something like, how it as the kid comes up to Bob Gray at first and says,
[SPEAKER_03]: the children seem to like you and then he's like huh and then it recalibrates and it's like my parents are missing right right realizes that it's in the form of a kid and needs to act like a kid I I just I think that's really interesting yeah I mean I think it's also being a clown allows you more room to behave on your showly which would be good for an on
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and just, you can see also when the kid, quote, unquote, kid, the entity, he child interacts with Bob Gray, says, um, you know, I can't find my parents in Bob Gray.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I like that whole exchange, um, me neither.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Find them.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like, well, this is why the entity wants kids, because kids are less snarky and more willing to, um, go along and be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right, and and I wonder if it's magic kind of works against the feeding cycle, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because they're so willing to overlook violence that it's harder to get them to run to help.
[SPEAKER_04]: To trap an adult.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, it's possible.
[SPEAKER_04]: I I wonder if
[SPEAKER_04]: The easy prey aspect is as important as just the sweet, sweet flavor of a child that it likes.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I do think, undergoing what Alicia was saying, just the physical comedy of a Pennywise
[SPEAKER_04]: is possibly more understandable to this entity, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Then trying to act cool and trying to act normal, but like, oh, I can move my body in a kind of unusual and surprising way in a way that will not immediately like a kid with glowing eyes, send people screaming.
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, Pennywise, the clown form is scary, but
[SPEAKER_04]: it can kind of maybe make sense of that reality a little more because of the heightened reality and the physical exaggerated movements and things like we don't know I made the comment earlier about like just anyways have a sense of humor he said
[SPEAKER_04]: Is there face on my face, but we can't really comprehend it's it's intellect and it's the way that it's brain works and there's something about Account a clown that is a caricature that might be easier to inhabit on some level if I could make my second interview with vampire reference of the episode the vampire is bored You know like I just think if I think Pennywise or I think it gets bored and just kind of
[SPEAKER_03]: Does this, like, heading wise could just go around town killing people, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, doesn't need to do all this, like, you know, trapping and and scaring, but it's just, it's bored and likes to do it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I, I just, I, I love the scene of the, the show the bow mirror from the beginning in the end was really wonderful.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought,
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, overall just excellent work by Bill Skars yarn in the writing and I'm glad that we got this origin story.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, I think Mark wrote this up first, but like what are we going to get in 1908 if we get a season three here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that makes me even more excited because the fact that these obvious things that I would expect are already being revealed, it means that they're going to surprise me with new things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, with this, this season, we knew that the big event was going to be the black spot burning down.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is, you know, we've talked about this before.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just, it's in the book itself, not just the black spot, but just the in-spoilery
[SPEAKER_01]: nature of this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a story that's about, can you figure out what's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: We know it's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, this just gives us, and we got this season, for example, you know, it's not about we knew the black spot was going to burn down and it was going to break our heart, but we didn't know that Rich was going to be in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were going to care about this
[SPEAKER_01]: uh uh come they told him Pennywise will eat your brain um yeah and and so that means I don't hear the original lyrics that often, Lisa thank you
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... it's it's better in the original latin but it just means that uh... they have i mean i assume at this point the way they're structuring the story the way they've been open about their plans for the story that they have three all three seasons mapped out and this means they have something up there sleeve that's going to surprise us even though we know the story i think that's right and and
[SPEAKER_03]: When you have a prequel in general, but especially in it where things are so based on the chemistry of the kid group, you need to have the characters be the core of the story, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: The characters need to move the story about the other way around because you know what's going to happen eventually and you can't rely on plot twists and mystery boxes as much.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's very Stephen King.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know there's a lot of
[SPEAKER_04]: argument to be made about certain aspects of this season that don't feel very kignion but he will have especially like his true crime bent the last maybe 15 years or so he's written a lot of true crime adjacent you know CSI main kind of novels and I haven't read all of them certainly but I've read a few of them and oftentimes it's the kind of thing where you're following that detective who's investigating this thing but you've also been following
[SPEAKER_04]: murderer the heinous criminal the old time there is no it's not about the mystery at all like the mystery is spoiled very early in the novel it's how do we get there and it even even a sort of crime mystery novel is not about the mystery and so I think
[SPEAKER_04]: I appreciate freeing the need to like it would be absurd obviously to have 1908 be in this three box season with a like who's gonna turn into anyway like no but but I think also maybe we have clarity or at least potential clarity that ingrid won't maybe be the centerpiece that
[SPEAKER_04]: that I was wondering early in the season or earlier when we first realized who she was that maybe she was our main character in in 1908 and I feel like we might intersect with them but first of all her actor shall be you know probably too old at that point but I think we've maybe seen the story play out and that
[SPEAKER_04]: the Bob Gray may appear as a character but the centerpiece of that season and of the 1935 doesn't feel like it could really be her as much as she is color that's been added to kind of paint that picture for us when we get there.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, but this mark this for three years from now, four years from now is that I'm going to say that the scene that we get of Ingrid in the 1908 story is her trying to replace her father as periwinkle and being rejected by the carnival.
[SPEAKER_01]: or by someone in town I mean I suppose that is what they could show it's a 1908 is why and how does she get established in town but I guess it makes sense you know a child is orphaned the circus or the carnival is not like it's sorry but there is a big difference between carnival and circuses I know they differentiate in this show but they are like well we're not here to we're not an orphanage and to the hand them over hand her over to the town
[SPEAKER_03]: would think of her a trial show and she doesn't have somebody to work all the years like she did no and and it just bombs uh... boring grid but not boring grid because she ends up murdering a lot of people so that's why why don't we yeah that's why it's just revenge on dairy for the rest of her life uh... let's go on to the black spot at least you want to read that
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, the racist mob enters the black spot and demands they turn over Hank Grogan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hank offers to leave them to avoid violence but the soldiers defend him.
[SPEAKER_01]: The mob leaves only to chain the door shut and commit arson.
[SPEAKER_01]: As the building falls, Haloran uses his powers to ask an indigenous ghost for help to get the kids out.
[SPEAKER_01]: and suddenly rescues Hank will and Ronnie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Marge and Rich get trapped in the building and before the roof collapses, Rich tricks Marge into taking the only safe spot available inside a trunk.
[SPEAKER_01]: He locks her in and the two confess their love to each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rich dies as the building collapses.
[SPEAKER_01]: And um...
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw someone also said this on our Discord chat, but the first thing I wrote down as I wrote this scene is the ice boxes that Titanic door only this time it actually looks like it only fits one person.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was I thought the same thing of like oh this is actually logistically an issue now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which honestly the Titanic thing is overblown because like the thing would have sunk with two people on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hold point.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, there was definitely only room for one person.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I love when she gets in.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, nope.
[SPEAKER_03]: And good attention to detail.
[SPEAKER_03]: He shoves her hands back and so her fingers don't get caught.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was I looked up by the way after this scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like smoke inhalation better death than burning And the Google was worried about me and sent me some phone numbers of people who can help me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my god.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I like this episode
[SPEAKER_04]: I made some light of like, oh, they killed my man, rich.
[SPEAKER_04]: I actually hate this moment in a lot of ways.
[SPEAKER_04]: From a film making, I really loved their moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: We could quibble about whether he would have the oxygen or maybe he should have been more drowsy or something.
[SPEAKER_04]: putting aside maybe the question of whether she would cook alive and then die inside that thing as the house heated up or the bar caught on fire.
[SPEAKER_04]: I did not like
[SPEAKER_04]: He didn't even try to escape.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, other people were still in the process of escaping that place.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not that big.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't buy that even the most love struck 12-year-old would resign to his death.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's one thing to get her, look at you, get her in there.
[SPEAKER_04]: You tell her you love her.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to see him try to get the hell out of there and fail to try to, like we saw him, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: spot 10 meters away or whatever, sitting sort of as he had, asphyxiate and not burned.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like, it was the whole thing we got to get you in there.
[SPEAKER_04]: This roof is gonna collapse and the roof didn't even collapse.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I just think my man Rich got,
[SPEAKER_04]: got written a little they really loved that speech.
[SPEAKER_04]: You got to give him a little more self-preservation at that point and after the speech given the speech fine, I just didn't I didn't really buy that he wouldn't really try to escape like what?
[SPEAKER_01]: maybe they should have staged it so that he was so that they were in a back room because yeah I just did some point as soon as I saw like that part of the ceiling fall was like oh this is TV speak for their trapped but I suppose they could have staged it in a way that made it more visually convincing how trapped they were.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that could that could it could be as simple as that the the the the sort of blocking because I mean I enjoyed this episode, but I have to say I did I did not enjoy watching this like it was only in the retrospect that I was able to really go all crap.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's dead.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was really because this really was a suitably distressing and thrilling scene like you can't see what's going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's chaos.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like people are like getting their heads blown off.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just really
[SPEAKER_04]: They amped up the intensity in a really effective way and it pulled me out of it to go come on and it wasn't until later like really the next day that I was able to appreciate this scene instead of kind of just be mad at
[SPEAKER_04]: the weird character moment like so it might have simply just been blocking like if they had just shown some kind of a different angle where it was clear that he was trapped and there's no point in even trying but but then like when the firefighters come hours later and maybe I'm cutting ahead too much they're not even like bringing they like discover March
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're just like, oh, March.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, March, and then firefighter's just walk away.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, no, they would be picking her up.
[SPEAKER_04]: They'd be, she okay, like, it was, it was just, there was like a lack of urgency in this little part of the house.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like there's a chillout man vibe that strikes you when you get close to this ice box.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what do they have in there?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's in the air.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I don't know, it's just a little weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: They wanted people to have their moments in the same way that they stop.
[SPEAKER_04]: The EMTs or whatever they are, firefighters stop carrying Rich's body.
[SPEAKER_04]: So later, so March can grab his hand instead of like, we gotta try to save people, little girl.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's just weird, like they went for the feels with the speech and it was all well written and but they executed it in a way that made it hard for me, just me to appreciate it and feel sad instead of just like,
[SPEAKER_04]: this is put it this way they took away my favorite character and I feel like it was unfair I'm like he should still be alive it was like and I know that's you know this is ridiculous Like dozens of people die there and if any of you ever played video games and you've ever had like you beaten the boss
[SPEAKER_04]: And then there's a cutscene where it shows you getting your butt beat up by the boss.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're like, hang on, I just removed all of your hit points.
[SPEAKER_04]: How are you forcing me to lose this boss?
[SPEAKER_04]: It felt a little bit like that, like they cheap-shotted killing him, and it took away my ability to appreciate.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is by far the most negative, I'm gonna be in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I really liked it, except for they took away my chance to feel the moment because I was so...
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't buy that this 12 year old would just, yeah, I'm going to die now.
[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to save your life.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I'm going to not try to save my own to try to be with you again when we get out of this mess.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll stop there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure I've made my point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do think he was, you know, he was trying to be her night.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And kids don't always think logically.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think for him, he was like, she's going to get out if I leave this.
[SPEAKER_03]: and totally get out of the the case right and he just he wanted to be the hero and yeah that that's kind of where I went with that um his body will find the light you do everything undoubtedly just for having a roof all on him yeah like it's smoke inhalation that killed him right
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, yeah, but the roof still would have come down right, but the roof didn't come down.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you're right.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what they were saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, like, you can see a shot.
[SPEAKER_04]: The roof is totally there.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was all like you got to get in here.
[SPEAKER_04]: This roof is going to come down.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it didn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and John, I am completely believing.
[SPEAKER_04]: 1960s love a love struck kid also with a patriarchal society.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have to save the the object of my affections.
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe he would do everything up until that moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's it's the moment they finished their conversation and he's locked her in there that he wouldn't that we don't get to see him.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, fight for his own life, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, at that point, we're just supposed to accept.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, I think this is a staging issue that he sees no way out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why he did this whole margin the box thing in the first place.
[SPEAKER_03]: and and I will also say like if we had gotten out of this and none of the losers club died I think that it would have felt very cheap right because so many people died in there like if nobody died I mean I would have been shocked if like everybody in there just died I mean I guess I would have been shocked if we'll die because he's supposed to be alive for you know to have like
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's come back to that, but totally, yeah, look, maybe I'm just butt hurt that he's dead.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that's all of this is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I wanna be like, but, but can I rewind it and maybe he'll survive next time because it's unfair, maybe that's all this is.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I wanted to feel it too.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to, to like cry, I guess.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it maybe you did enough for both of us.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, we can move on.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not a big deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just a man-rich, guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyways, can I say a couple things just book comparison?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know if you've read yet if you're far enough at least you have to get to the point where they're learning some of this backstory in the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: If so, please do add to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's a little bit different, which, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: big surprise, this is an adaptation, but it's, it's kind of like a KKK analog in the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the, the Legion, the main legion of white decency are the people who burn this place down.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's, that might be who these dudes are, they may still be that, but it wasn't sign on town about the legion of decency.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so they, these are surely members, but it, it's sort of,
[SPEAKER_04]: in the book it's more just like a racist attack i don't think it's it's much which clearly this is that but it's um it's motivated also we see this sort of hank search right it's more just a terrorist act i would say in in the novels uh the novels portrayal and say again what here's more motivated
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean not by anything real I mean, but right, but yes, specifically you have a fugitive.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right, right, exactly right and and also the other of, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: watch for named characters, Norma Price, the teenager, Ish, girl who is maybe the singer, I think, in the last episode during Rich's jam session.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, the one who her, maybe her father, her uncle, or whatever said, Norma Price, is that you, I don't think that is a character that people know in the novel or related works.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, stop me if I'm wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: especially uh... folks in the discord but just checking kind of any time there's a random name i'm always wondering if it's a character that we see in nineteen twenty two or some other kind of early twenty-centre king story but apparently not
[SPEAKER_01]: As far as the Legion of White Dacency, I appreciated the fact that they, with this season, a lot of it is about, and of course Stephen King's books are about the fact, you know, this is Maine, and people are like, oh, the North, it's different.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like the South, with the racism and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But here you have, you know, so they don't, the characters don't put on KKK robes in this version because they don't see themselves like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, we are better than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They put on these random monster masks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we just see that that whole, quote unquote, good Northerner facade is blown up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Question though, do you think Pennywise made them not
[SPEAKER_01]: because they're they're like oh white woman you'll get out of here you're in trouble as you were saying normal price and then and then they just like okay Let's just block out these three clearly visible children in here But I can see that Pennywise has certainly made adults of dairy over look more than that
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and you know going back to the racist thing like yeah, the north first of all like I grew up on Long Island and I remember teachers talking about how like the KKK had a sizable presence on the island like there were like 10s of thousands of KKK members on Long Island at the site
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and, you know, we're in northern state, it's not, it's not like we're in the south.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the racism is everywhere in the United States.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you just have to, you have to accept that as a truth.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want to be honest with yourself and mean, especially rural Maine, I think is going to be very similar.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dude, I live near Boston, and I've had work colleagues of mine who are from the South.
[SPEAKER_04]: Be like, no, Boston is legit more racist than, you know, little rock Arkansas.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's just different.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, it quantity is, is it tough thing, but like it's the nature of it is different, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Less of an organized black community in some of these segregated northern cities that the racism, you're, you can be almost less protected by your,
[SPEAKER_04]: your sort of fellows in your minority, especially racial minority, because you're sort of in this like you could be lost among a city where then persecution can be very different but very bad also, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is Boston and people stereotype Massachusetts is this blue haven, and it has a really bad reputation for being really racist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now just in the books,
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it in the 50s?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, because the 50s is when the, the kids are right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be one to the right, right, or 30s.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to say like changing this to the 60s does change the way that the racism will manifest, because well people were, you know, more, very racist to the 60s still.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like you're saying Mark less tied to clan robes and more about, you know, the civil rights movement opposition.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there still could be, you know, acts of violence like this, like the arson, but it's not like they're wearing costume.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I guess they were wearing costumes.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I take it all back.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you're totally right, because the KKK resurgence has in a lot of ways is in the 20s.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like in the Woodrow Wilson late to use in the 20s is when that stuff gets resurrected after it had to kind of been
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, gauche.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then, yeah, by the time we get to the 60s, it's gauche again.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's the famous like, didn't, didn't Superman make fun of the KKK in a comic once.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it kind of like took away their, a lot of like the coolness fact, or even among the races.
[SPEAKER_04]: The KKK would have been kind of more at the height of their powers 20th century wise in the, I guess, the late 20s, which is when the timeline and
[SPEAKER_04]: it would be more a kind of wrapped up in the anti-communist anti-women's movement and all these stupid Vietnam war protestor, I guess that's just too early in the early 60s, but this is literally during JFK's presidency, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's just, it is a different one, and so I think you're exactly right to point out like the, the legion of white decency might still exist at that point, but it's, it's not nearly as,
[SPEAKER_04]: open as, you know, maybe when we go to the 1908 timeline, we'll see, we'll see kind of that being more people walking around with business cards saying I'm in the main legion of what this decency and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the same way, you know, slavery ended up being Jim Crow, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: slavery went to sharecroppers, went to Jim Crow, like racism is still there, it just manifests differently.
[SPEAKER_03]: and like you're saying, it's less open in the 1960s because people were sensing that the society was going against that, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the civil rights act was being signed shortly after the civil rights movement was at a tight.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that, you know, like you're saying, it was kind of gauche then.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it should be something to be seem negative, but it's why I'm saying, like, I think that's why we didn't get something called the society of white decent say or rather.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because I think that would have been unbelievable for that time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I'm wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, and I think not not talk the spotlight on this, but like the and talk too long on this point, but the translation of the role of black soldiers in a largely white society would be in some ways different in the 20s versus the 60s also, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think
[SPEAKER_04]: There's always been, and certainly still is a major imbalance between, you know, the benefit so to speak of military service as, you know, resisted like the government and society resisting giving those same benefits so to speak to black soldiers, you know, with the GI bill and redlining.
[SPEAKER_04]: All these bad things that came out after World War II.
[SPEAKER_04]: back in the 20s, we were still in the, you know, the Tulsa race massacre era were like, right.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was really dangerous to be perceived as coming up to high, whereas I think,
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time, Harvard was teaching for knowledge, but anyway, Sargerhead.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my gosh, in the 20s, yeah, that's not, that's not unfortunately surprising.
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on, Harvard, do better.
[SPEAKER_04]: But they have since.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, we need the administration to get in there and close the frenology department.
[SPEAKER_04]: We need to, that all that ideology they're pushing.
[SPEAKER_04]: The idea that Leroy would be a black officer,
[SPEAKER_04]: makes a lot more sense in the 60s than the 20s, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: The black spot was a little more of like a hideout probably in the 20s timeline versus a little more just a celebratory kind of thing, nest celebratory, they're getting away from from the gliers of the town, but you know those soldiers occupy a different role in society that's
[SPEAKER_04]: I would hope at least a little more respect to bull relative to the rest of the town respectful is not the right word, but accepted, though a lot of good it to them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, we can move on.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is can I ask us what do you think what you guys think would have happened if they had handed Hank over, would they still have burned the place down?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it depends on was Pennywise there to feast on the chaos, or was Pennywise the cause.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because if Pennywise was essentially the cause, I think a lot of people were dying no matter what happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think if Pennywise was there,
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe, but like, I, I, I don't even want to get close to victim blaming.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll be like, if you just handed him over.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I, I, I, I, I think my, I think my point is is exactly the opposite.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think even if they had handed him over, um, not only would it have resulted in his death, but I think they would have killed the rest of them anyway.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, to get even, to go even further,
[SPEAKER_04]: What if the soldiers had just killed the white, the racist mob?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what happens then?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I say that, like, what if their lives would have been ruined by the law would have, but like, what does Pennywise do at this point?
[SPEAKER_04]: Does he still cause a fire somehow?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, how inescapable was this moment from an almost magical, like assuming the white mob had been a totally terrible, much mob dies, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly, like, what happens
[SPEAKER_04]: doesn't anything change like is there a kind of like for does the auger he happened whether you like it or not.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, though there isn't really one in the, well, they kind of win in the 80s.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why it doesn't really happen in the main, it timeline.
[SPEAKER_04]: They put it to sleep early.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I have to talk about the cinematography of this scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, we got on television this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got two all-time runners, one on pleurbis, and the other is this scene when the black spot is first set on fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's this one shot that just goes through the chaos and all of,
[SPEAKER_01]: All of these people dying and all these horrible things that are happening, but the cinematography, wow, no, not to pull a David, but there's there's a video they, you know, people have been going crazy for this one shot and you can actually watch it on YouTube, if you look up one shot dairy, they put the whole scene up there for you to admire.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does it have, I mean, it's the full, fully produced scene or like the raw.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I would love to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sure they've got to go behind the scenes, especially as Emmys get closer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, this is just so you can admire the finished product.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Dick, when he starts to escape, I was judging him hard because he sees, it's sesquite, the warrior woman from the glue story, so he sees ghost sesquite back, and
[SPEAKER_01]: He speaks to her and her white eyes clear so that you know the ghost eyes clear and now she's aware of him and all of the ghosts are now aware of him and and finds helps him find the way out But he wasn't even going to call other people to follow him down the whole at first.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you guys think about Dick's behavior in the situation?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think he's just kind of a self preservation kind of guy right like
[SPEAKER_03]: He's shown that tendency earlier in the season, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, you know, don't bother me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, you know, when he finds out that Grogan is there, he doesn't want anything to do with it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I, he's not somebody who's going to step in at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think honestly, this is a turning point in his life, and it's why he goes and helps Danny in the shining.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is part of his character growth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we don't understand that he talks to sesquie because does sesquie help him fight?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I was a little confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first she helps him find.
[SPEAKER_01]: the exit, you know, the way to get out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then later, yes, you hope some find the the total.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's interesting because they're showing us, and especially like not especially, but additionally later, we see him surrounded by his,
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, zombie former colleagues, right, I guess, like fellow soldiers, and they're not like hostile, like the ghost aren't necessarily hostile to you, so it's an interesting choice in that moment, like he sees this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess he would have recognized her from the vision of Daniel, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, and he kind of makes a gamble that this is not going to be a harassing ghost, but then he's welcoming them automatically all the ghosts.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess is sort of the story.
[SPEAKER_04]: And as we talked about last week, I'm not totally sure on how this all works, because it's not the way it works in Dr. Sleep.
[SPEAKER_04]: It at least doesn't seem to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: but it's interesting like he's sacrificing his potentially his own like sanity to get out in this moment and can't blame him for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, that does make he that goes along with him maybe not so explicitly at least at first caring about everybody else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Did you all find the moment when there's a bunch of zombies lined up behind Pennywise?
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's like, you see them now, or whatever, did that work for you?
[SPEAKER_04]: And to me, that looked a little, I don't know, a little to control.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remembering what moment you're talking about?
[SPEAKER_04]: Isn't there some moment where there's like a zombie horde backed by fire behind Pennywise like you're about to again like a video game cutscene?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, isn't there something is this the when they they have the line when He's Pennywise says to dick like they see you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think so and it just looked weird like it was just it was very Boss fight video game boss fight, but I loved the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that worked for me
[SPEAKER_03]: We all see down here.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll be right back after the spreek.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, well, why don't we talk about the rest of the seven with the black spot.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go right to the
[SPEAKER_04]: As the people burn in the black spot, Pennywise delights in their suffering.
[SPEAKER_04]: He offers help to a woman and promptly eats her face.
[SPEAKER_04]: After the carnage, he kills Stanley Kirch and approaches England, who tells him she called the sheriff to create the violence.
[SPEAKER_04]: She successfully lures him and gives her the fatherly approval.
[SPEAKER_04]: He gives her the fatherly approval she craved.
[SPEAKER_04]: When he tries to go to sleep, she tells him not to abandon her and realizes Pennywise is not her father.
[SPEAKER_04]: It brings out the lights.
[SPEAKER_04]: Lights come a dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lights come a dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it marked you one two.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've teased this word dead lights before and talked about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The way it's represented in the movies and the show is these three white lights.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think we should talk more about what the dead lights are?
[SPEAKER_01]: and how that might have affected Ingrid, or do you think that's Boilerie for the finale, potentially?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's one of those things where it's, I mean, I think we have to assume people have seen the movie, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, we can talk a pretty big picture about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think there are dark tower connections, maybe we cannot really get too deeply into, but like the deadlines,
[SPEAKER_04]: Deadlights are either sort of the source of energy that fuels it, or actually the true form of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And without getting too much into the dark tower, it sort of comes from this space called the Todashtarkness, which is kind of the
[SPEAKER_04]: the world between worlds, kind of the think of it like almost like the void, the abyss, like this is where crazy monsters come from.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you think of, if anybody's seen the mist, there's reason that it's gonna break it up because, well, anyway, yeah, is that also from the To-Dash Darkness?
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's implied, I've never read the mist, but it's implied really I think in the dark tower that.
[SPEAKER_04]: You haven't, sorry, have you seen it?
[SPEAKER_04]: I've seen the movie, but I haven't read the movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I'll buy the movies, excellent.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's implied that those creatures come from the Toadash space, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And there are other important characters to the Dark Tower that I won't spoil because it's very novel seven stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that you see the deadlines and they're not Pennywise related specifically.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's sort of just implies that maybe
[SPEAKER_04]: These, this is a force that, you know, either is that sort of evil outer world or the creatures from that world, or that you know that part sector of the universe, sort of all are based on it or exhibit it, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's like, is it the form itself or the energy behind that?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not entirely clear.
[SPEAKER_04]: And practically speaking, when we cut to like, how does this affect?
[SPEAKER_04]: Basically, if you see the true form, it's sort of, uh,
[SPEAKER_04]: HP Lovecraft style like it's cosmic horror in a sense like if you see in the novel You see the deadlines you either die or you're basically your brain is broken right you're you're driven insane or you are
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, put into a coma, there's one character in the it novel that maybe kind of potentially comes back from that, but otherwise it's pretty much a death sentence, and so that is a
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, see, I was just going to say, it's a very different canon because Bev gets deadlighted.
[SPEAKER_04]: She gets deadlit and then is woken up by a kiss, so then kisses her and she gets woken up.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is really relevant to not only ingrid, but what happens with will at the end, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: In the novel, if you told me that my canlons father that has not yet
[SPEAKER_04]: sired, my canlin was dead-lighted.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would say that is canonically impossible.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Basically, he's either dead at this moment or he is in a vegetative state.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in the film universe,
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe he just needs a poetic little spunky 12 year old boy to kiss him and he'll get woken up again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, so I think I'm going with Ronnie too.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Ronnie, Ronnie, Ronnie is to write really sweet poetry secretly about him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then something tells me, something tells me Hank snuck going to kiss Ingrid out of this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't, gosh, we have to talk about that too.
[SPEAKER_04]: But just wrapping up on the deadlines, wrapping up on the deadlines.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I think what we're supposed to understand here is that it's sort of the essence of the creature, right, the pure essence of the creature, the energy of the creature, and it breaks your brain.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's just a varying levels of
[SPEAKER_04]: permanence in the film series.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't want them to take away the stakes to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think with Bev we're supposed to understand Bev Martian in the film is dead lit and then probably going to be later.
[SPEAKER_04]: But here he does it to anger it and just kind of leaves.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was more of just out of spite.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like what?
[SPEAKER_04]: What's happening in Pennywise's mind when he goes from, it goes from kind of amused sort of by her and I love how Skarsguard's playing it like he's kind of getting drowsy there's like a loopiness to Pennywise when he's telling her that he's going to sleep.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then he goes, you know what, never mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then opens up his face to essentially kill her.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then leaves, like it's not like he takes her down into the sewer to eat later.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what are we thinking?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: We see first of all that there's that moment, which was another great piece of acting by Bill Skarsgard, where he's hugging her and it almost looks like he's going to take a bite out of her and then kind of changes his mind as opposed.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, you know, she was really useful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she could survive another 27 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, I don't think that was it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I was going to say also that ingrid, but then right after that, ingrid finally realized, it's not her father, which is like, you didn't realize when he was literally eating your husband's face in front of you, which granted the cleaver, not a good dude, it turns out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing that makes her realize is she's like, you're abandoning me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Daddy would never like, wow, ingrid.
[SPEAKER_04]: She did that already in the 30 or he did that to her in the
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess she was a periwinkle.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whoa.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So how did you interpret this, John?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you have a thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: When he's hugging her, the reason he doesn't eat her is because she has no fear of him.
[SPEAKER_03]: She is completely loving to him.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: She must taste just super bitter for him.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like he's like, ah, and not not my style.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just had a good meal.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't need this.
[SPEAKER_03]: we want court is all not not oxytocin anyway that that's what i think is that she was she was almost repellent to him because he's never felt love before and he's like oh no i don't want that yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm that's question about the we talked about the the cycle and we here in the next scene One of the Native American guys says see you shit has says in 27 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like who's that guy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why does story I hope we see him in season 2?
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I want to talk about that that line real quick.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, shit asses first full shit ass is like top five
[SPEAKER_04]: combo in swear word.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have never had never heard shit ask until hearing it probably five million times in the series reservation dogs have either used in that series.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, not yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, it's, oh my, for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's really, it's a lot like, um,
[SPEAKER_04]: Atlanta or like master of none in the sense that it's like one of these comedies.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not like comedy comedy But it's just so funny in its drama.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's set at a Reservation a bunch of teenagers in I think Oklahoma and They's everybody especially all the old aunties and uncles are calling everybody shit ass all the time and I looked and When I heard it in the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like is that an homage to?
[SPEAKER_04]: to reservation dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I don't know that it's not like, uh, I think it might be that because I, I looked and people please correct me.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, is reservation or is shit ass a specifically like,
[SPEAKER_04]: modern American Indian slang.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it may not make sense to not have the same slang in Maine as in Oklahoma in that case.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the 60s also, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: These are completely different tribes that wouldn't interact.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think it's really just a reference because that the writers or that actor were like down with that show, which is a great show, by the way, I do recommend it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very heartfelt and really funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Only three seasons too.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's just a reference because it sticks out like a sore thumb and I was down for it, but I don't think that's yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: cultural reason that that that that term specifically anyways I'm getting ahead we have a mic my question was just about the 27 years I we talked about it before and I thought it was variable and now I'm realizing I think it might be just the 90 series that made that the lore and is it strictly 27 years every year I mean every time in the novel
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I know in the show, they said 26 or 27 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they did, so it is slightly variable.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's slightly, but it's not, it's, you know, pretty, you can count on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I ask you, John, you were hoping that it this time that it would go differently and it would go to sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, things happen at the end of the episode, but were you happy to hear that that's the direction things were going for a second there?
[SPEAKER_01]: That team was full.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's some noise outside.
[SPEAKER_03]: Someone's dropping off a bucket of internet points.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's more interesting to have a good different way this time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's not let it get beaten up every time because then it'll start to feel like is this even a monster or is this just kind of like a punching bag for kids?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another lower question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it have Bob Gray's memories?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it seems so like the fact he knows to call Ingrid Pumpkin and other things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it?
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought that was just going into Ingrid's head.
[SPEAKER_04]: or or having previously gone into Bob Gray's head when he killed Bob Gray.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like he inherits them, it's just a sort of mind-reeteriness.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I think Pennywise gets the porous knowledge of everyone in dairy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he's not because he ate the brain, it's just right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so can I can I call that real quick novel comparison?
[SPEAKER_04]: we get this scene from the perspective in the novel told to Mike Hanland who remember Mike is a librarian everybody so he spends the intervening years before everybody comes back for what in the film is it chapter two trying to research dairy's history right and find out what is going on here right so i believe it's his dad will telling him the story of being here um...
[SPEAKER_04]: years before I could be wrong if it's will, but apparently, Pennywise is not there as Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is there as a giant bird.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's interesting because you know, in the films, each of the kids and then later the adults, there's a sort of classic incarnation of how they see it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, they see Pennywise, but they'll be like,
[SPEAKER_04]: The mummy, or the wearable, if they each kind of have one, the weird painting is for one of them as a kid, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Mike's sort of the avatar that it chooses for Mike is a giant bird, usually, and that's not what it is in the film.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the film, it's, I think, his, his,
[SPEAKER_04]: parents on fire or something like that, but in the film it's this bird and then we hear for his dad, I think it's his dad at the black spot.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's this giant bird just like picking people off as they're fleeing the building, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I think with this Bob Gray episode,
[SPEAKER_04]: At the first half, I think it makes more sense to give us Pennywise in this episode, but it is interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pennywise himself is not there in the novel.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a bird that is floating on balloons, basically eating people, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So I kind of a different vibe for whatever reason that I think has more to do with the characterization and using Scar's guard to the right amount in this seventh episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, can I point out what after, like just the Pennywise of it all, the fact that it's not just that this horrible thing happened, but also the way that it's spoken about after.
[SPEAKER_01]: We find out that 23 people died at the Black Spot, and 17 children have been killed overall in this cycle, which we were told was a lesser cycle, at least, you know, with the 17 kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then we see in town they showed they zoomed in to show us when they there's that Hank Grogan wanted poster that is posted on top of a missing children's poster like they are literally Becoming blind to the children and then we hear Stanley of course talked about the Stanley the wife Beater who is there to you know massacre people is beloved local butcher
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, they call it the phrase as several citizens who showed up to help treat the wounded and blame.
[SPEAKER_01]: They call it an illegal to colored, speak easy, negro patients must be responsible for the tragedy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really...
[SPEAKER_01]: Like my blood was boiling, listening to how all of this is spoken about after the fact, and that is this sort of, like at this point, Pennywise is going back to sleep, but it's just something about, I suppose, that do you think that's with a discharge in the water is about, is about leaving behind that just general.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that Pennywise started that.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's just racism, you know, a societal racism working.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think it helps, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It helps people forget what would happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you have to think about, like, how many people had to be part of that cover up, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, all the firefighters, all the police all had to be part of ignoring the fact that there wasn't a electrical fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, they know what started that fire.
[SPEAKER_03]: They know that it started from the outside.
[SPEAKER_03]: and they know that it was, you know, probably gasoline or something like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the fire was lit from outside.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's clear art.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's just that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not just that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, I think that's real.
[SPEAKER_04]: That would happen in real life without magic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, oh, we're going to just cover this up and say that it was started by the illegal speakeasy, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: But they had to cover up.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, Stanley Kirch's face was cut in half, like that's not a burned a burned body that's you saving kids and chewed and there's people who are eaten and like gunshot exploded heads.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not just that they're covering up a cause of a fire.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're covering up like they better have a bunch of clothes, casket funerals for all these.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I mean, places have been eaten, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not I don't even know that it's a cover up as much as just it must be kind of a magical inability to even address the reality because because think of it this way also like Hank is not killed
[SPEAKER_04]: People have a bloodless, the people that survived that, like meaning the racist starters of this fire, ostensibly were there just to kill him in the first place.
[SPEAKER_04]: He clearly was not killed, but they're creating a lie that he was killed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why not just keep hunting for it?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like they've ceased to even have the desire to chase him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like Pennywise,
[SPEAKER_04]: has sort of backed off, so to speak, because you know, you could imagine a poster that instead was like, fire at the speak easy heroes killed murderers still at large.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's rally the town to go catch this, they could blame the fire on Hank Grogan.
[SPEAKER_04]: But instead no, they said to Hank's dead, even though Hank is not all tired.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's really, it's really with their all.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a really well put.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're all tired, because it kind of makes no sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: given what we think the motivation of those, uh, the legion of white decency, uh, guys is to kill him.
[SPEAKER_04]: They didn't even accomplish that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's, um, enough to just blame it on electrical fire and just move on with your life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we didn't really think he killed those kids anyways, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's wild.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, um, so yeah, again, no mention of rich in the reports, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But one thing I noticed that the camera did that has me wondering how this is going to play into the finale is it zoomed in on Al-Mankin, which was Phil and Susie's father.
[SPEAKER_01]: We last saw him attacking Hank Grogon when he was being put on the bust of Shalshank.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um,
[SPEAKER_01]: But here he, the way I've read it at least is he seems to look a bit troubled, like we saw him looking in as the fire was started and people were blocked in and he seemed to have something in him that said, this has gone too far.
[SPEAKER_04]: What have we done?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_04]: And is that Pennywise's spell back and off, kind of?
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's keep going, because we're running out of time here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mission accomplished.
[SPEAKER_03]: Halorin uses the contact he's made with the indigenous ghost to find one of the pillars.
[SPEAKER_03]: They dig it up and send it back to base.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hadlin is confused as that would extend the cage, not enclose it as he was promised.
[SPEAKER_03]: He stops the base from inciterating the shard of Pennywise's prison just in time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Shaw confronts Hamlin and tells him the real mission, which is to spread fear across the country to stop the enemy from within.
[SPEAKER_03]: We love that phrase.
[SPEAKER_03]: He sends Hamlin back to his quarters and tells his subordinate to, I can't remember the name of, not to let Hamlin leave the base.
[SPEAKER_03]: The shard is destroyed and Pennywise awakens from hibernation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I have a question about the whole rewrite fear thing because well, first of all, I think it's interesting that we see his lack of fear means that he just turns on the soldiers in a way probably a lot of people would not do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But why did they need somebody without fear if their plan is to unleash fear on everyone or was that just
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, because I never, you know, I already said anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shaw says at this point, I just have to assume as a lie.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's put himself in that category.
[SPEAKER_01]: So was that just a lie and they actually, like, what did they want with this damaged amygdala situation?
[SPEAKER_04]: That turned out not to matter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was kind of disappointing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I wonder if it'll come up in the last episode, maybe they've been saving it, but we'll see, because right now, I mean, I guess you could just say, like, well, we were going to send somebody to go find the actual entity, and we didn't want the soldiers to die, so we wanted somebody with a level head who wouldn't be affected by it to go in.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we didn't want this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, once the magic worked on Lee Roy, because he kind of gets rid and off after the super is right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So once the magic worked on Lee Roy, he's kind of not part of the in group anymore.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel like that was
[SPEAKER_04]: set up kind of a writerly way to kind of get him into the story, but I don't think they needed that they could have just had him stationed here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Unless it does turn out to matter, if you were trying to, yeah, you could argue, well, we thought we needed him to get the pillar, and then once we destroy the pillar who needs him anymore, we want fear, but
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's kind of turned out to be a nothing burger question.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this how high up does this plan go?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is this a JFK plan?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because that's not Kingy and I've talked about a JFK is a gun slinger like right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It feels like is this a deep state the Pentagon kind of thing like this is a crazy stupid plan obviously, but
[SPEAKER_01]: like JFK wasn't doing MK Ultra, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just something that was happening assume without his knowledge.
[SPEAKER_04]: Before and after, kind of regardless of the presidency, specifically, it, yeah, this is a question, is
[SPEAKER_04]: What's the dumber plan?
[SPEAKER_04]: United America by scaring Americans with a monster, or using the monster as a weapon against the Soviet Union, which is stupider.
[SPEAKER_01]: the scaring America because first of all you're putting yourself, you and your family are in the quote-unquote cage too only I guess you don't want a cage and I'm sorry but you know I thought it was stupid if you want you don't scare people into submission because scaring people tends to make them angry or more aggressive and lash out you know it's same with with every animal so like just if you think about
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose this is supposed to be a 1984 kind of situation, the George Orwell novel, but and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you guys think that fear represses people because everything in my experience says that it just makes them wilder and more unpredictable?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me do some work for the writers here.
[SPEAKER_03]: In 1908, maybe we see Shah and Rose,
[SPEAKER_03]: come together and with a group of friends and everyone comes together in the face of fear and he's like viewers what you night people.
[SPEAKER_03]: He takes still wrong lesson from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they got me on the anger side like I'm normally someone I'm like, Oh, everyone deserves a fair trial in this scene I'm like shoot the bastard.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so dumb with shaw Look, you never trust the Harrison Ford look alike who's not Harrison Ford I'm just this so this is really interesting to so many thoughts here like First of all about Shaw
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a, if they had a little losers club.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is our loser that has gone bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have not seen that yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: And,
[SPEAKER_04]: I think there's an argument to be made and I'm not saying that because we don't know the history there, that it is sort of counter to the vibe and the thesis of it, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: That like if they truly had a little losers club back in the thoughts and one of them has gone full, I'm going to unleash Pennywise to the right.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is not.
[SPEAKER_04]: stand your ass killing himself because he's so afraid of Pennywise this is anti this is one of the losers becoming Henry Bowers right the left town so i think yeah well i think it would be someone well someone else didn't leave town but i think you're saying he left town before no but i'm saying the kids in it
[SPEAKER_04]: the original kids in the 80s they left out after it when you're saying because he left down before the cycle was done right I don't think he was really a member of the 1908 losers club okay right yeah that's because okay so that's one thing like
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope there's an explanation like that because him getting that wrong lesson that John is looting to does feel very not in line with the sort of thesis of this particular aspect of the King franchises.
[SPEAKER_03]: In terms of fear, because I just want to push back a little bit, because people are different, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, and you have all these different kids of all these different generations.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, some people react by committing suicide.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I do think that you could have a reaction where you're like, you know, unhinged reaction.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, look at the way that Ingrid reacts, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's not logical.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so it's not about what's realistic for me and this is completely a matter of taste possibly, but it's a mouth kind of like
[SPEAKER_04]: Compositional Unity, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I spent a lot of time in my music classes like talking about like, okay, if you're, you spend the first five minutes of this six-minute song you're using using just major and minor chords and then in the last second you start, it's like totally a tonal, like you better have a good reason for that because you've interrupted the unity, the aesthetic unity, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, it's not about what's realistic, think about like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, another word for compositional unity in storytelling would be repetition.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I would like to avoid that, but it's all right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, but no, but like think about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so like music is obviously my field of expertise.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you you like to see an artist evolve, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: But there's sometimes there's an aspect of that artist that is kind of the reason you like that artist.
[SPEAKER_04]: So think like
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, the beach boys, like there's a lot of things to like about the beach boys is 60's various errors, like songwriting, one of the fundamental reasons why the beach boys are awesome is because they have dope backup vocals and vocal harmonies, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: If the beach boys took an album that
[SPEAKER_04]: Everything was the same except they had no backup vocals.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, there would be, there's just a appointment to that because there's like, okay, I want you to evolve, but I also think there are reasons I come for the Beach Boys.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so there's something about it that, and this is a matter of taste, and this is a matter of like, we'll see what happens, but is there something about the essence of it?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't mean the deadlines, the essence of the novel that is sort of the moral of the story is
[SPEAKER_04]: about friendship and togetherness, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so in the same way that if you had like a a work of, let's say you had a work of protest,
[SPEAKER_04]: literature that then there was an adaptation that took the opposite end like if you had an anti-racist book and then they made a prequel that was pro-racist you could say okay there's something that is breaking the intention here and so I'm making claims about what the sort of essential truth to it is but I do worry that and I could be wrong there I do worry that if it is true that he is both a loser and the central antagonist of this season
[SPEAKER_04]: that could be breaking like why I'm here for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not here for Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here for the losers club.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here for the kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here for the love, the fellowship, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just like Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're here for the kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: They taste great.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, I don't know, we don't know, but like there's a version where Shaw left before those bonds formed and that explains it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That feels more
[SPEAKER_04]: what this story means to me in terms of capital and means like what the moral of it is versus shot as a loser gone bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying that's not interesting and that's not good interesting writing and that's not good um like logical in a lot of ways and humans are different but is it part of the it franchise?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have the answers but it feels a little funny to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think we might see Lily go bad, and I'm gonna get to that next.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Can I say before we move on?
[SPEAKER_04]: Since obviously I haven't talked enough.
[SPEAKER_04]: We mentioned the, the sort of cod, what is the tribal council, the it fighting club called I remember.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you've been bringing it up because I forgot to put that and like three other tiny scenes in here and I've been adding them as we go and then that was one that I, I was going to add in the last one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for bringing that in now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I love that crew.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's nice to get a little taste of something and want more.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I have to say,
[SPEAKER_04]: Did they do anything?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like they're like, oh, it's 17 children died 23.
[SPEAKER_04]: It'd be a lot more if we hadn't kept them in the cage.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I wonder, is that true?
[SPEAKER_04]: If you took this cage out, how do we, are we sure Pennywise wouldn't just eat that number of people and can go hibernate?
[SPEAKER_04]: What makes us think that Pennywise would just consume the world at that point?
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe Pennywise just eats 20 kids or whatever, every,
[SPEAKER_04]: And like Pennywise might migrate, he might end up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and eating kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I will, I question if these guys are doing anything at all, really.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it changes the territory, but is the amount of death the same?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is interesting that they don't try to do this because we find out in the movies that they are the ones who tell Mike about this ritual of Chad to which in the book is how they lock away Pennywise for three cycles, so like a hundred years, um, and it's just over there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting that I'm also, it's also completely possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting movie and bookler kind of flated again, but no, I mean, it's not the tribe, obviously, but it is like, obviously in the book, the turtle teaches them how to do this ritual of chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting, we don't see them attempt to do that here.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's no tongue biting.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's tongue biting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank God that did make it into the movie either.
[SPEAKER_03]: The shuttle couldn't help us.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's get to the last group of scenes here.
[SPEAKER_03]: The town begins the process of forgetting and puts blame on the victims while celebrating the culprits.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hank is smuggled to Rose by Charlotte.
[SPEAKER_03]: Margin Ronnie go to the balcony and mourn Rich, remembering that he never got a plane to main street.
[SPEAKER_03]: They go to Lily's house where she's looking very disturbed, as she holds the dagger, and Ronnie and Marge tearfully tell Lily that Rich's gone, Will gets a call from Ronnie Wise, who shows up on top of his fridge, ready to party.
[SPEAKER_01]: That final jump scare actually was quite good.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not, because jump scare scares are often quite cheap, but this one was really well set up and executed.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did, there are, I think that was on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some behind the scenes of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was a really funny, ready post where somebody put Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse on his pose up there, because he's all red and he's standing with the, he's sitting with the Spider-Man pose.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I'm worried about Lily that dagger looks bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they really have her looking salo and washed out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm with you and worrying about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then obviously, you know, as Mark mentioned earlier, we'll see in the dead light.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is he just dead?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we have to rewrite the movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is really interesting because this is all extra.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like we don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: we don't we only know the backstory we know what the scenario is in the 80s of course because we've seen the film and and such but we know about the black stop a black spot but we don't really have any idea where they're going now so is this going to be a sort of
[SPEAKER_04]: Golden Age of TV, day new mall, episode where like, you know, we have the big battle in episode seven and then the last episode is like cleaning it up or is this actually building to the real augury or something like that because Pennywise is apparently not asleep.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is really interesting for a prequel series for us to I think more than we ever have been in a season become politely unsure what's gonna happen next.
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully it's cool what they do and not like breaking the canon, but, um, yeah, I'm intrigued.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do we think we've seen the end of Ingrid?
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, no, she was dead lid.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't mean Ingrid as a character.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this timeline Ingrid, right, Comotos Ingrid, who.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her eyes were moving at the end like she was registering.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was looking
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she's going to play into the last episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to waste Manland's stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I wonder if I'm going to try to atone and say, oh, the kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, the question, by the way, I meant to say this like 30 minutes ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that she had a, like, a grown-up periwinkle costume and I'm just imagining like her asshole husband is like completely oblivious to her literally sewing a clown costume or something like that and she keeps it.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, what are you doing there?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, under his idiot nose.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, so I wanted to ask about her though, like,
[SPEAKER_04]: In terms of whether she gets a redemption or whatever, waking up from this sort of madness, she's in, how far back do we think she planned this?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, clearly she admits to I called in the racist to cause this, you know, bloodshed.
[SPEAKER_04]: But is that what her affair with Hankless from the beginning or was that actually just an affair?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then she sees an opportunity when she realizes Pennywise's back.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if she knew that if she went public with the affair, violence would be committed on him, but then she could have done something with that way earlier.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was an opportunity.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's the only way that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this might have just been an earnest actual affair, because she's in this loveless marriage with this guy, but she seems so singularly fixed on this, but she can coexist in society quite functionally, like she's not like, even unwrapping murderous women have their needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hank Rogan is a good-looking guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the credit song that they come out with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-oh, troubles back in town.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that was just, I was just absolutely delighted by the ending of this episode, which is horrible to say about an episode in which one of my favorite characters died and it ends with at least one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I actually, okay, I'm biting my tongue so hard on something I'm looking
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm super curious what you could possibly guess I'll have to wait till next time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have brought I did bring it up in a previous episode, but I've been quiet about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm making a prediction here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lily kills Ronnie with the dagger.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I believe mistakes Ronnie for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: and kills her with a dagger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so we've already seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: It accidentally turned to be Ronnie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, true.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Lily's grip in that dagger real tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what they did with Lily's makeup, like I was saying before, just how washed out she looks, and like that girl's not okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't think that breaks my whole thing about the beach boys having no backup vocals.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think that would be that, because that's a mistake.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's...
[SPEAKER_04]: Lily, there's been the schism in the group, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And that doesn't mean it has to heal, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, she's not going to do that and then be evil.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's going to do that if that happens and feel terrible regret, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, wow, that, yeah, you put your, your internet points on a clear wager.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, my prediction,
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to enjoy episode eight, but I'm going to go on a random five-minute rant in the middle about how wondering if this show is actually going to ruin the cannon, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the listeners are going to fast forward about five minutes, probably again, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's my prediction.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ah, that'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that it's going to be good, but there's going to be 5% of the episode that I'm like, but, but, but, but the thing I read when I was 13 years old is different.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, hey, I've been there with Wheel of Time and and uh, little again.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I've actually been thinking about that because of three of us, you know, last hung out talking at the water cooler about Wheel of Time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was like so,
[SPEAKER_04]: So different right and but it was an update and it felt like a different thing where I was Really just like a long for the right and I I like this show, but there's a I was like Down for like abuse of the canon in that because it was like give me a new canon kind of Whereas this because the 2017 novel is a pretty faithful adaptation.
[SPEAKER_04]: I find myself a little more
[SPEAKER_04]: on guard with it, which is really interesting because it's not an issue of like, I love it more than I love the wheel of time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really love the wheel of time.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was something, there's something about how close this is that makes me like, there's an uncanny beard, a little bit, whereas wheel of time, I'm like, you're rewriting some of this and like, give me a new story and you're telling the wheel.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I know there's a couple people in the discord that sometimes agree with my takes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I will stop when the season is over and only that.
[SPEAKER_03]: For enough, Mark, I know you gotta get going.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we will head out here and I'll do the outro on my own and we will see you all for the finale next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I just plug David is on our podcast this week?
[SPEAKER_04]: Ooh, very excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: David, talking about my generation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he's talking about not the who song,
[SPEAKER_04]: why like the we're talking about the sort of what's the transfer of power as one generation grows up and sort of starts making music for themselves and then when the next kids they make music for the next kids and like whether there are musical seed changes when a generational cohort comes of age is a really interesting and fun conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I just say that I think
[SPEAKER_01]: but that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that that's market operational change.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was thinking about that time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I think though it it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I quibble also with like the timing of it because you could a lot of there's an argument to be made that that was also in the late 90s really, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so there's an arbitrary bullet point to say it's 2012 or whatever, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, listening to the episode folks, let's litigate it in the discord.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright, very cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll talk about the rest of that in the outro, but for now, we'll see you next week.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, everyone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, this episode is out a little bit later than usual.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a crazy week, but it's out now.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're ready for the finale next week, or very soon, and we're looking forward to sharing that with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: But for now, let's talk about what else is happening on the network.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've got Mark, I never mind the music.
[SPEAKER_03]: He just talked about his goings on, but definitely check that out weekly coverage.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can find that link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can also find our other affiliates radioactive rambling about to cover fallout season 2.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have Wolshift Dust, Alicia's got all her stuff going on, Christmas Carol V2, and all her other stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: She'll have some Star Wars coming up soon on the Star Wars Kenan Timeline podcast feed.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sure probably Howard will be back soon too.
[SPEAKER_03]: We also have Plastion.
[SPEAKER_03]: plenty going on on the network.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got pluralist coverage weekly with David and Nicole from Nevermind the Music Marks co-host.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got our top 10 shows of the year coming up.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's an annual podcast we do.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's Second Breakfast, which is usually our subscriber exclusive episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: But.
[SPEAKER_03]: we do it public in December.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's our Christmas present to all of you that will come out on Christmas day.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will also have conversations with our co-hosts and contributors on their top three shows of the year.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you're a subscriber, you can submit your top ten lists in the poll that is, I think, still available.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to have a lot of great coverage in the new year.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know we're going to be covering on night of the seven kingdoms.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a lot of other great coverage coming.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to be doing Christmas movies, die hard, one versus die hard, two as our subscriber 11 sees this month.
[SPEAKER_03]: And violent night as our public Christmas movie review this winter.
[SPEAKER_03]: Alright everybody, I just want to say a quick thank you to all of our server boosters on Discord and our loremasters, our top tier subscribers, our server boosters are, Aaron K, to load the thriller.
[SPEAKER_03]: Doves 71, Athena A, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Artician, Radio Activ Richard and Adrienne.
[SPEAKER_03]: And our lore master's Martian, Michael G. Michelle E. S. C. Peter O'H.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nancy M. Doov-71, Brian 863, Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Andra B. Kwang-U, Nathan T. Sub-Zero.
[SPEAKER_03]: Aaron K. Dallie V. Mothership 61, Norles.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you everyone for all your support.
[SPEAKER_03]: We will be back to talk about all the scares of the finale.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that it's back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Laura Hound podcast is produced and published by the Laura Hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can send questions and comments to Laurahounds at thewarhounds.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening!