[SPEAKER_01]: Today on the relationship renovation podcast part three of the intimacy gap curiosity emotional safety how to close that gap and get closer together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am Tara Kerwin and my name is EJ Kerwin and we are continuing in our journey of the intimacy gap series and that was a This is part three, but before I tell you about part three, I want to remind you of part two is a great episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the silent saboteurs and it was
[SPEAKER_01]: things like stress and anxiety and the things that really block intimacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in general what we're talking about here is that it almost always happens that this gap, that my needs in intimacy,
[SPEAKER_01]: and tears needs and in any couple, there's going to be differences and that's going to be around of variety of things, not just physical intimacy, not just sex, but in emotional intimacy, intellectual intimacy, like kind of all the things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, and so I mean, today's lesson is all about how to use curiosity to reconnect because we do know that in an attachment, science research, emotional safety, you've heard us talk about it a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the number one, number one predictor of long term.
[SPEAKER_04]: relationship satisfaction over compatibility, over frequency of sex, emotional safety, number one predictor, and that's a hard one to grasp, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because emotional safety means many things to many different people, but what we do know is that intimacy, physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, it cannot be forced.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the more emotional safety we have, we can open the doors to those deeper levels of intimacy.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we can understand it better, connect better, be more curious around each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like a personal story for us, just to kind of like you guys know, we've struggled with this.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you've listened to any of our podcast,
[SPEAKER_04]: You've heard me cry.
[SPEAKER_04]: You've heard each egg get frustrated.
[SPEAKER_04]: You've heard us like, gosh, it's the hardest thing we've ever talked about, but we have opened those doors to talking about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I recently started hormone replacement therapy because I'm going through the good old period of pause, menopause, whatever you want to call it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like really excited at first because like, it changed pretty rapidly within sex, sitting within sex weeks.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's hilarious.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a couple of sex weeks.
[SPEAKER_04]: So within like the first few weeks of my hormone replacement therapy like my sex drive came back up and and all of the things were happening So I was so excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure you were excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and now it's been a few months and like things have definitely like kind of you know It's like up and down and all around and
[SPEAKER_04]: But like you and I can talk about it because I can be like, God, I'm so frustrated.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I felt like the testosterone was working.
[SPEAKER_04]: And now it feels like it's kind of fading away.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we get to talk about it more.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that means we're still connecting because if we were just hoping that HRT was the number one answer to our sexual intimacy, like everybody would be doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's not.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's about taking all the steps and being curious and still talking about it, whether it's working or not working.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, so the topic being curiosity and that story that Terrors talked about about how we're dealing with, you know, an ongoing thing that most couples deal with is that discrepancy in desire, in frequency of sex,
[SPEAKER_01]: curiosity and emotional safety, they allow us to address it together, right, because one of the things that pulls couples apart is the completely separate experience, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in our case, me being the person who's like, hey, you know, what's what's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it seems like that HRT was really working and now,
[SPEAKER_01]: it seems like like not so much right and her being maybe in her report that I've heard before of like feeling bad about it and and and confused herself and curiosity is the way in which we bridge the gap to talking about it to like having you know that emotional safety to
[SPEAKER_01]: both like talk about our experiences and because we're in it together but the the gap that we're talking about is what pulls us apart and so so what we want to talk about today is how you use that open hearted curiosity as a way to connect with your partner and discuss things that are difficult.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's again to me like rebuilding emotional safety or building it for the first time is a bridge from like understanding to action right so we're curious we understand better now now we can take action because we have more knowledge and understanding yes that's really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the emotional safety is the ability that both of us can share our experiences completely without fear, without the fact that like, hey, if I bring this up, Tara is going to get pissed off of me, she's going to think that I'm that I all I care about is one thing, that Tara can talk about her side of it without fear that I'm going to get upset myself and that's
[SPEAKER_01]: that's what emotional safety is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it is literally safe to share my experience with my partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: Vulnerability without fear.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a tough one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so here's sort of some of the things that we're going to get to how to maybe broach the conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: but also it's important to know like what are sort of some of the ways in which you can cultivate emotional safety with your partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what are some of the signals that I can give Tera that it's safe for her to talk about things?
[SPEAKER_04]: My affirmee.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like soft eyes like when we get trigger like the first thing I notice about E.J.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like if he's in a defensive place or if he's stressed out like his eyes become like Hardened like I can't even use words to explain it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a feeling again But when E.J.
[SPEAKER_04]: comes to me and his eyes are soft like I feel really safe
[SPEAKER_04]: And so soft eyes to me, I know that like if anyone else out there relates like, you know, have my back here because soft eyes to me as like huge tone of voice, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: We can get a lot of emotion from just tone of voice.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like if I'm coming to me like, you generally want to talk about something that might be difficult versus I really think we should talk about this like just the tone of voice is so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the energy that we bring into it because what we're talking about today is we've really defined what the intimacy gap is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the reasons it might be happening and today's episode is all about like, how do we sort of like cast the line across that gap?
[SPEAKER_01]: and begin to move closer together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what that takes is it takes a little bit of bravery, you know, because I know, like, you know, in the example that Tara was talking about, that she has her own feelings and her own struggles around the fact that there was this time, where it seemed like just the, you know, the medication was just creating this change.
[SPEAKER_01]: And,
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a let down and so I don't want to hurt her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want her to think like that I'm impatient.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the energy I bring to like casting, you know, casting my line across the bridge to be like or to create a bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about like a calm energy that I come into it with
[SPEAKER_01]: you know a gentle tone with soft eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think also another important thing is sort of like, do you want to talk about this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this something, you know, hey, is this an okay time?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is this an okay time?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this something that you're noticing as well, you know, the way in which we approach it is so important?
[SPEAKER_04]: and it's, you know, because one of the things I wanted to talk about next was that self-regulation and co-regulation that you have to be in an individual place where you do feel regulated so that when you are talking about something like a lot of couples experience intense uncomfortable emotions around physical intimacy, you have to be in this place where you know that you're regulated yourself and you've got the tools and
[SPEAKER_04]: When you start to get dysregulated, and then when you're coming together, you co-regulate, that's what builds safe to you guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: Both of you co-regulated together, but it also takes that self-regulation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, just another, we've had a rough week.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been super sick.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you've listened to our last couple episodes, you guys know we've like, you know, just had a lot of, um, we've had a lot of stresses, which also inhibit sexual desire for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the other morning I just, right, it wasn't sleeping while I, like, our children were just being crazy in the morning and I said something to eat you like, don't be an asshole.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a water down version of what was said, but yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, oh, it could go two ways right now because I said that said it could go two ways.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could either keep doing this and we enforce this and then our whole morning blows up and then my day blows up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or I could go into the bathroom, be like this is not helpful Tara.
[SPEAKER_04]: Next, exactly what I did it took me two minutes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I went into the bathroom, I was like, this is not going to be helpful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tara, you're really stressed, you're really tired, you've got to watch your breath.
[SPEAKER_04]: My heart rate was already increased.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I went back out.
[SPEAKER_04]: We emerged.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure I don't know if you felt the difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I can't really felt the difference.
[SPEAKER_04]: I did it because otherwise, if I didn't do that, it would not only impact me, all day, it would impact you, us and our kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they would have had to go into school, like, oh, my gosh, mom and dad are enough fighting who knows.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so in the context of bridging the gap of closing this gap and self-regulation, for me, it's a lot about knowing, okay, if I'm going to bring this up, if we're going to talk about the fact that, you know, we have this gap in desire again, like, what are going to be
[SPEAKER_01]: in that conversation oftentimes is that it goes into like things that we've talked about over and over and that it specifically it's like, well, we don't go on date and it feels like we're almost like changing the subject to me a little bit and I know that that's I'm gonna withdraw if I hear that again and like we brought this up about a week or so again we're dealing with like this like we said and that's exactly where it went right away it was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: we're not having date nights, we're not doing this and I felt myself getting my brand of disregulation, which my brand of disregulation isn't getting pissed.
[SPEAKER_01]: My brand of disregulation is like, is withdrawing and just good being like, mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, we've had this talk before, so it's all just, what was the sense in doing it?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what I had to do was I took a deep breath, I was like, okay, this is, this is, this is important to her to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not inaccurate, you know, it doesn't feel productive to me, but you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to stay present and so what, so knowing when you're going into these difficult talks, what might push you into disregulation, you know, like Tara knowing that like, hey, if I start to get that cold or look at my eye, that that might disregulate her, if she tells herself that ahead of time, she might be able to instead of disregulate, say like, EJ, like, I'm seeing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: sort of look you get when when you're getting frustrated or you're getting angry with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if she takes care of herself, but also says it in a way that might be herable to me, I might be able then to soften.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas if she's like, oh, there you are again, you know, there's that coldness.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hate that about you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, then we're off to the races.
[SPEAKER_01]: So both of us being aware of ways in which we get dysregulated is important.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me just share that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're having that conversation and my age is like, oh, our physical intimacy has definitely like declined and I'm like, yeah, and we haven't had a date night in like months, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I start to go to like, we'll never ever have date nights like I can't believe like right, I started going to my story, but then you stayed present for me and then it allowed me to go into all of this grief, like before we had children.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, before our life got so busy we had two businesses and everything like I loved getting dressed up and going on date night It made me feel like special and unique that something that has always been like a part of me since I was like even a teenager I would make like my high school boyfriend take me out every Thursday to the Olive Garden like it's something that made me broadstick
[SPEAKER_04]: for sure, $6, but it made me feel like I was special in unique, and I think because our life has been so busy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like to me, it's not about, oh, you taking me on date, it means we have sex.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's it's cultivating my unique specialty as an intimate partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: right and so when I don't have that then I just feel like I'm this right robot do do do do doing all the things and then it doesn't build like sexy feelings in me because I don't feel like I don't have experiences that cultivate.
[SPEAKER_04]: my sexy self.
[SPEAKER_04]: But again, we use staying present for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It ended where I started crying and like really understanding my own grief around when I've lost and then that right leads to understanding we're like, we're like, even today, like, right, I have girls night tonight, but we're going to try to go out for an hour before that so we can have like a little bit of date night.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's that understanding of each other and then taking action towards that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and it's it's that it's the in the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: not only just going into these conversations with an open-hearted curiosity but trying to maintain it throughout the conversation because for me whatever conversation we're having that's a little bit more difficult the minute it starts to feel repetitive I have to be careful because I lose my curiosity then because I'm like I've fucking heard this like 50 times you know it's like we're not going to get anywhere but in that moment I was able to be like okay you know
[SPEAKER_01]: This is important, and she wouldn't be saying it for the, you know, however many of the time unless it was important.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think because I stayed there, then you were able to keep it soft.
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of like, we don't have date night.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't make me a priority.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I, you stayed in eye statements, you stayed in like sadness,
[SPEAKER_01]: that this is something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's the, that's a big thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And and I think you wrote down in our notes, curiosity versus control, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The curiosity keeps our heart open, where fear and control is when we shut down.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so instead of just an example, right, instead of EJ being like, oh, yeah, we haven't had sex on like two weeks, right, which is like where you normally go like it's like a time thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I, I, I, I, I assume that.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I'll be like, oh my gosh, it's been two weeks.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's gonna say something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is really important, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's good that you kind of hear a little bit of us like being like, you know, that's not exactly how it goes down like, like, I don't think I've ever said, hey, it's been two weeks or it's been a month or whatever, like, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really go into those conversations because you've told me I don't want you to ignore it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want you to talk about it if it's on your mind, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know you've given me that permission that's important to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: My struggle is always like, how do I bridge the gap?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do I enter into that conversation?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's the way I frame it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I certainly know, hey, we haven't had sex and however long is not the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, this is a great opportunity for me to say, like, to you, to you, to, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: how do I bring it up like how and how do you think a lot of people who are on your side of the intimacy gap like what's a way to bring that conversation up that frames it in a positive way.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, this is good.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I guess number one understanding that like, if it has been a while that I'm already getting anxiety, because I'm like, oh, like, I know that you're the higher desire partner in our relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I always get anxiety.
[SPEAKER_04]: No matter how much emotional state do we have in our relationship, like after we've had sex, my anxiety goes down, because I'm like,
[SPEAKER_04]: like we did it like it's all go over fine okay and then it'll be two weeks and I'm like oh like I no matter how much emotional safety I get anxiety because not only is it like I feel confused about my own body I also want like oh my gosh like this just keeps happening right and so I start to feel a little helpless or powerless in this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think if you were like, hey honey, I think it'll be really important to have a talk about our feeling connected.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I know it's been a really difficult two weeks or whatever you want to say, but just recognizing that I for sure get anxiety and that you know that that's happening and so that when we talk my anxiety comes down, that makes me feel really seen and it makes me feel
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you understand why it's happening.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not like I'm trying to punish you and Not reward you with sex because we haven't had a date night.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let me try that out Let me tell you if I see if I heard it right because I think this is where I know couples get tripped up Because you hear and you start interpreting it, so okay, so I'm gonna do my best.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay So if I came to you and I said Hey, T. I think it's
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like you'd be important for us to talk about our connection, and it's been really stressful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we both had our hopes around the HRT thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that would be okay for us to talk about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I would say dimension anxiety.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now that I've told you, because in my body, I already get really nervous.
[SPEAKER_01]: So hey, I just think it's like important we've talked about the fact we want to be really open about our, about our intimate connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know when there's time between that you start to get really anxious.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Building an E.J.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carwin.
[SPEAKER_03]: Building it.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you hear that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what's interesting is like we can do our best to like model
[SPEAKER_01]: what works for us, but what got us there was me asking Tara, what's the way in which, and that's what you have to do with your partners is you have to, you have to get curious about how to get curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have to ask your partner like, hey, and you can even start really broad.
[SPEAKER_01]: If there's something difficult that we need to talk about, how can I
[SPEAKER_01]: bring it up to you like what is a way and when is it time that will lead to like the highest likelihood that it's going to go well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and I wrote down two in our notes before we're doing this one that like repair matters more than perfection.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you will get it wrong so many times, but the more you try it out like right like what we just did super organic that was not
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that like that's what matters is that you keep trying it differently.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not about being perfect But coming back and back actually that felt good that didn't feel good on my gosh I was I just called you when I asked all I'm so sorry Let me try that again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me come emerge out of my bathroom more regularly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Didn't know So anyway, we're really just some takeaway stuff from this episode today
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, first of all, we have our relationship renovation at Home Manual on Amazon for 24.99.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, you actually have to type in relationship renovation at Home Manual since it's like very new on Amazon.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or you can send you the link, but you guys, it has all of the stuff, all of the skills built to build emotional safety that we don't learn ever.
[SPEAKER_04]: So please, like, and then we, if you ever have questions about it, you want to dig deeper, we have a whole.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, let me go deeper so you can get that manual and then you can join our Patreon membership Relationship renovation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in our show notes and there are lessons in there that you can watch then
[SPEAKER_01]: go to the workbook, work through it together, and then we're also doing monthly like get-togethers where we can sit in a room with us and ask questions and we'll talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is it's an amazing resource because as you can see like where people who like freaking do this every day you know with people and yet like we stumble through it all the time and there's ways in which I approach terror that like the
[SPEAKER_01]: totally don't work and there's times where she tells me what she wants but she tells me in a way that like I really don't like you know and so it's not easy stuff but it's so as you've heard in our last few episodes it's so worth it when you begin to feel like oh my gosh we're actually dealing with this better than we ever have before.
[SPEAKER_04]: So again, you guys, do your daily emotional check-ins.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's like a really good start.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, start getting on the same page, making five to 10 minutes a day.
[SPEAKER_04]: To check in with each other, get an idea of each other's emotional landscapes, ask yourself the question, when have I felt safe and connected with you or what makes us feel safe and connected?
[SPEAKER_04]: Or how can we start to feel more emotionally safe and connected?
[SPEAKER_04]: But remember this, safety, emotional safety builds desire.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not the other way around.
[SPEAKER_01]: And next week, we're going on to intimacy gap part four, which is rewriting your intimate story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's all about like, how do we create the intimacy of this phase of our relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is so important because so many couples say, like, we want to get back to where we were and we're like, there's no going back, that's not the way this works.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is about where are we going now and on intimate relationship,
[SPEAKER_01]: is just never going to be what it was before we had our twins.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we had the boys half of the time and we just got together.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so we're creating a new intimacy story through desire, play, connection, we're super excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: We really want to hear from you, reach out, podcast at relationship renovation.com, go get that at home manual from Amazon, join our Patreon, reach out to us on our Instagram or Facebook.
[SPEAKER_04]: We always respond.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if we don't, it's because it got lost somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for listening as always.
[SPEAKER_04]: Take care of yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Take care of each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.