[SPEAKER_04]: Baby, ain't nobody safe In the Bible, oh, in the Bible, oh
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Prejuice podcast today on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am joined once again by my friend Amy Nord Hughes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had her on the show back in December of 2021.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had just released her book, Prayed Upon, which tells her experience being groomed and abused by a therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: And ever since the episode drops, she's continued doing incredible advocacy work, supporting survivors who have experienced abuse at the hands of therapists, and just continues educating people over on her social platforms and on her website, AmyNorthuse.com, and she's joining me on the show today, along with Jennifer Cramer, the two of them are producing a documentary series about this called Hashtag Therapy 2, which they hope will become a seven-part documentary series
[SPEAKER_00]: some of the horrific abuses that have gone on within this industry and we have a really great conversation in today's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk a little bit about how being abused in this type of setting affects you when you are abused by therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what are you supposed to do to heal?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something where you want to immediately jump into a therapy setting again.
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about how widespread this is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Amy shares some really disturbing statistics about just how many
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as we get close to the end of the episode, we talk about this documentary series and what their goal is in releasing it, where they're at in the process right now, and how people can support this project.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in doing that, you can head over to AmyNord Hughes.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's AmyNORDHUEs.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has a link that talks to you all about the documentary series and has the incredible poster or work, which you should definitely check out right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: This conversation was absolutely fantastic and I know you're going to get a lot out of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I certainly did and again be sure to go support this documentary series if possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, if you're listening to this right now on its release just next week on October 13th they're going to be filming a sizzle reel for the documentary series so if you want to go follow the social accounts I'm sure there'll be some behind the scenes and some more footage up there really soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: but that's enough for me for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go ahead and get a my conversation with Amy Nord Hughes and her co-producer Jennifer Cramer.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, everybody, welcome back to the show, Amy and Jennifer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm really excited to chat and Amy, I was looking and told you before I hit record.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's been like three years since you were on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I still vividly remember reading through your book, hearing your story for the first time, and you know, I've read a lot of books that relate to like the psychology of these situations or the way these cases happen, but you know, every time I talk about your book, I say it's one of the best,
[SPEAKER_00]: anecdotal experiences of grooming that I've ever, that I've ever read.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that book, of course, is pretty upon which I still have the old cover.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's an update update to the new one.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, for anybody who listen to that interview, what has happened in the years since we had that conversation?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and thank you, first of all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still remember our interview too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was on my favorites.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a website that I kind of just set up for my book, but then I really started writing for it just to put an information out there because there just isn't that much out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I just started getting contacted more and more frequently by survivors.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here in the past year, I thought maybe I would start, I wanted to start some sort of peer support route, but I didn't, you know, I'm not a licensed professional, but just a way to bring survivors together.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started an online book club.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was originally just going to be my book and survivors would get on and we would discuss it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I found three other authors, two are therapy harm and one is clergy abuse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we did four authors, four books, and we would just get on a zoom.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was really healing and it seemed to really benefit people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right before that book club, Jennifer was one of the survivors that reached out to me and we started communicating and then in the book club is another actress out of New York and I thought that's just really odd that I'm now connected with two survivors in the film industry we should do a documentary we should do something with this and.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of where that started and so it's now just Jennifer and I but we have been working for I don't know at least the past six months full time almost towards a documentary so that's kind of where I am now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just still trying to get the word out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jennifer, you mentioned before he recorded as well that it was actually probably our interview together that you watched that introduced you to Amy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it similarities to your unexplained that resonated?
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it just the story in general?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what drew you to Amy's story in particular?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I had had my own experiences that were horrific and therapy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, I was not one of those
[SPEAKER_01]: would reach out to like the therapy, exploitation, I think, line my whole career trajectory was something that was going to be more public.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, I still have so much shame and confusion about what happened to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just kind of living with it alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my family knew what had happened to me, but I was still suffering a lot, and I wasn't actively looking for anything on therapy harm, but somehow I on YouTube, I found Amy and it was not only her delivery, it was of course her story because survivors have a lot of similarities and the traumas and the experiences that they go through, which
[SPEAKER_01]: is so amazing to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was her, the way she told her story, the clarity, and just the feeling that I got from her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I remember going to my mother and saying, God, I saw this woman doing these interviews.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's just amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like listening to myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost get emotional talking about it
[SPEAKER_01]: I was suffering and, you know, my mother kept saying, well, just reach out to her, reach out to her and I, you know, so I thought about it for weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had never talked about my experience with anybody, but I finally worked up the courage and I did and you know, many years before this, before I had the worst of my therapy experience, the worst therapy part of my experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was never going to talk about is it being me, you know, that I had had this experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so full of shame and confusion and blamed for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there was another time that I tried to work with this journalist to do something, you know, a documentary, but it just fizzled out because it, I believe, because it wasn't Amy, it was just somebody that I think thought that I could bring all the money and everything to the table, so it ever went anywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so it just, it's sort of feels amazing and meant to be that I met that I met Amy and that's we're doing this to help people, you know, to give survivors of boys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously, I've been spending a couple of months digging into this, and I'm sure talking to tons of people who've had similar experiences, how widespread are these types of stories, and how many people have you encountered, and I have to imagine every race experience is identical where it's like, I have to be the only one that this has happened to in the beginning, and then quickly realizing they're not, like, can you give me a sense of the scale
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I know tell therapy exploitation linkline will tell you that they hear from 40 to 50,000 therapist and clergy abuse survivors every year.
[SPEAKER_02]: And these are typically adults.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've also let us know that they find male and female therapist abusing at a similar rate.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a male therapist female client problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I personally, I mean, I couldn't say in the hundreds for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I don't even have a big reach.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, I have a few articles online.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not particularly easy to find me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have the book, but just for this documentary alone, we interviewed at least 50 survivors.
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are just survivors that are willing to come forward with their story.
[SPEAKER_02]: So many would like to, but they're in the middle of a legal process and that scares them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some are out of the country and we're sticking to the US.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of a South there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's also a lot of people like me who are just going to take it to their grave.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's basically what's my feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, I'm going to migrate with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way that, you know, anybody would not think I was crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what my story was, or not understand it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, so I think there's many people we don't even know.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just kind of living in
[SPEAKER_01]: in silence over it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I have to imagine if we don't come together, a lot of us take it to the grave because we think we're partly partially to the land, maybe fully to the land.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't even have some don't even recognize they were abused.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you mentioned you mentioned the word crazy and like that's a common fear with any abuse scenario is like am I going to be taken seriously?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I look like the crazy one?
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you're dealing with someone who's quite literally capable of handing out that label, you know, it that's got to be a scary layer of control on top of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do want to get clarity really quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned for you to 50,000 is this all
[SPEAKER_00]: fall is that all sexual abuse is that just any form of abuse between a therapist, financial, emotional, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned that both male and female abuse at a similar rate, which is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any inquienced why that is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in almost every other category, I mean, excuse primarily male, is there any reason for that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can speak to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to speak to a Jennifer?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I was just going to say about the types of
[SPEAKER_01]: abuse, no, and it isn't just sexual.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the one that's most talked about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the one I think within the ethics code that is very black and white.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that is a crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Beyond that, something that is very important to me to explore within this documentary series is that other types of abuse.
[SPEAKER_01]: It can still be sexual and be in the uendo, which was in my case.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all so harmful and I feel like the more emotional type is less understood and it's more nuanced and it's more, it's just something that people don't readily think is as bad as it is and that's one thing that I really want to educate the public about and my online abusers were women so that's another part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard for me to, within my own story to come to terms with, I was right now blamed, but seeing this person as a predator, I still have a heart because it was a woman and an older woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all those nuances are extremely important when I hope that, you know, we can really educate people about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a banner you want to mention something on that as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just on the handful of books, memoir books on this topic, there's more female abusive therapists than male.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have an article on my website where I kind of see two different categories of reviews.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's the sexual predator, which we all think of right away.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's the savior, the narcissistic savior.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that is why there are so many women and I think some of them,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the evil scale varies.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like some of them are just getting their needs and that some of them are looking for daughters and sons.
[SPEAKER_02]: Others just wanna be needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Others wanna feel special and cherished.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, look at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're using clients to meet their emotional needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that does cross over into the physical and sexual, but I guess that's to answer question why I feel like it's just as much a female therapist problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get into like the actual process of covering these stories, but I wanted to ask two more questions relating to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them that comes to mind is a therapist is a medical professional, you know, and they're dealing obviously with the mental side, but it's got to be similar to a doctor where, you know, they're
[SPEAKER_00]: They're thinking of things on a higher level than you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're, you want to doctor says, take this, you know, you can read the label, or you can think that, you know, I kind of understand what's happening, but I have to trust their judgment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of times what leaves you open to abuse in a counseling or therapies, you know, scenario is you're deferring to their expertise.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what may feel uncomfortable may just be, I don't understand this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the process is.
[SPEAKER_00]: First and foremost, how does someone even notice that something is wrong in that setting?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because I have to imagine like, well, I know therapy in general is uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first time you ever do it, it's a very uncomfortable experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: How does someone delineate between, I'm uncomfortable versus like, there's some really serious red flags here that I should take seriously and, you know, exit the situation, report it, you know, so on and so forth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, it's a complex I was going to say that would be a documentary on this topic that's going to save me the documentary on this time that is kind of that is a tough one because.
[SPEAKER_02]: As we notice little red flags, first of all, they start small and build and first of all, they, the abuse or weights to we, settle with one before they move on to another.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you forget that and you think that wasn't really a big deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then the other problem is, like when I started to get enough red flags where I felt like I should run this by somebody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you,
[SPEAKER_02]: Do choose to share with somebody and they minimize it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't believe you, blame you, take the abuse or side.
[SPEAKER_02]: You usually shut down and go back to this source of support that you're unsure of.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I always like to tell people you have to keep telling until you're heard because I had another friend that said, had you told me any of that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would have never let you go back.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like without an outside,
[SPEAKER_02]: voice, it is really hard because you're just isolated in this little bubble with you and the abuser and they have you so confused and so I don't know if that answers the question but that is something that is important.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I feel like when we're starting to get in dangerous relationships, abusive relationships,
[SPEAKER_02]: The outside world gets less and less of our attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the abuser gets more and more of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that in itself is a red flag.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if your circle is that small, you might be in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think every story is so unique.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, from like my situation, I'm gonna speak specifically about,
[SPEAKER_01]: my worst experience because by the time I got to this person, when I was young, I had already been in a very unethical therapy situation and it led to a lawsuit, which I easily won and then that therapist ended up dying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never got, and so I had a lot of, you know, you're always
[SPEAKER_01]: And this therapist that was the most traumatic for me knew that I had had that experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: She knew that I had super previous therapists and yet, and I was, you know, I do feel like my life and things in my life and that experience all did contribute to my situation and that therapy.
[SPEAKER_01]: because, you know, when this therapist started to break boundaries again and pray, you know, and start to basically love bomb me and say, you know, you're my favorite client and everything that she did because I had a previous experience, I thought this person could not possibly be lying to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was that was, that's what I was trying to get out of that because I
[SPEAKER_01]: that this person could be that well evil or that frankly stupid, I mean, I, I just, even to this day, that's why I have such a hard time getting over that therapy because I just can't comprehend how
[SPEAKER_01]: this person could do that and repeat, repeat it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I took it from my perspective as not a red flag, but as, oh my god, this, she really means this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is really true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really am the favor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really am love this, which is her family.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really am, you know, all of these things, because of this previous experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think every situation is unique and so red flags come in all different types.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I see I didn't see that as a red flag.
[SPEAKER_01]: I took it as
[SPEAKER_01]: more true than anything could ever be because of my history that she knew about.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's part of why I have such a hard time still at this day getting over it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I can't make sense of that, so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this comes up all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: This one of the most frustrating things is like, again, no matter how much, even when we've experienced things before, we always default to thinking if we wouldn't be capable of doing this to someone, nobody else will.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm proved wrong, time and time again in these stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hear that sentiment all the time where people leave a relationship where they put their abuse or in jail.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the next abuser still thinks there's an opportunity here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's a cycle that happens you know constantly and also the blame the blame also the right you know I was as we all are many are blamed for everything and I think you know that also makes it hard to to get to get over when it's so runs so deep you know the these people have such power and
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, they, they, they really touch you on a level as, as, as one retired therapist at a sort of like a soul murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really feel that's so true.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other problem with the red flags to me is that we all noticed at least some of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we all thought our situation was unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's why this documentary is so important because I feel like if I had known
[SPEAKER_02]: that these same things happened to, you know, I don't know, 25 other women, and they were abused when they were happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would have given me pause.
[SPEAKER_02]: But because we're in our own isolated little situation, we think, well, we really are special.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this really is different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have talked to hundreds of survivors.
[SPEAKER_02]: We all were told the same things.
[SPEAKER_02]: We all thought we were special.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we all thought it was unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess my hope is that getting this out to the general public will just start to make people start to question when they find themselves in this unique situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: How unique is it, really?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I was talking about the individual red flags, but I, this leads to the second question I had on that, which is, within, you know, this is a regulated industry, you know, I'm sure that there's things you cover where it could be regulated better, but are there guardrails in place currently to prevent abuse of people from getting into these positions when it comes to reporting, like, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: for people that are listening, your visual responses are answering this question.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what guardrails are lack there of, are there in this industry that keeps these people accountable?
[SPEAKER_00]: And either of you can answer or both, if you have a response on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, probably Ania's more educated with all of the advocacy that she does on this type of a subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, what I would hope from this documentary why we're doing it is
[SPEAKER_01]: In an ideal world, I wish that therapists all different, under all different kinds of licenses would be required to take classes on therapy and abuse.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that also the documentary would enlighten therapists about the role that they'd play in their patients' lives and how sacred it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, for me, I, I, I, I, I feel like there's nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there's nothing that can really protect clients when they go into therapy.
[SPEAKER_01]: What happened to me, this person has so much power over me to falsely diagnosed, which, you know, happens to many people to,
[SPEAKER_01]: They got me into a hospital, they'd somehow manipulate me into a hospital, and I just feel that, you know, clients are in a such a vulnerable place.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how you can get empowered if you found, you would find yourself where I found myself, which was, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, what you're going through is pathologized as something separate from the therapist's unethical behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you find yourself in a really difficult situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, maybe Amy can probably speak on this much more intelligently than myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would, you know, I would hope that I don't know what change could be created by by what we're doing on, you know, on a
[SPEAKER_01]: the legal or level with the boards, but something needs to be done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that, something needs to be done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had two different thoughts on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of them was the summer I was at a conference and they were talking about clergy abuse and they were talking about how the abuse is not gonna stop until the people at the top are held accountable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I started thinking about that in relationship to therapist abuse and it's true because coworkers and supervisors are not going to put themselves through the trauma
[SPEAKER_02]: and maybe even losing their job if there is no risk for them and not doing so.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I say that because one of the survivors in this project, she's young, she has a state that has really good laws in place the way hurt the board and her state operates.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're going after not only the abusive therapists, but all of the co-workers and the supervisor of this clinic that knew and did nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but see, that doesn't happen very often.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's one problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as far as supervision goes, that's the other thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Supervisors are not in the therapy room.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the supervisors here with the abusive therapist share.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's completely not even a help.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other thing is, this isn't really how can we make it better, but first she have to find the right board and then you have to report
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's very slow, and a lot of cases aren't even taken, and it's your word against the abusers.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, with me, mine was a psychiatrist, so I had the medical board, and I felt like they were a little more responsive, maybe, than the behavioral health boards, but they told me they take just like a ham, I mean, they take a very small percentage of cases that are reported.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope that answers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, do you think there's, like if, do you think there would be benefit to,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, like I think of, I think of in the medical world, you've got a, you know, a nurse in the room with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a second pair of eyes there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think things like that have those been floated as possibilities or solutions?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, because I,
[SPEAKER_00]: it's a weird thing right because you think about it and it's like it is a very intimate thing and you know it's hard enough to tell one person the thought of having two people in a room could feel like you're being hanged up on in this kind of session but also like you said it's it's already a he said she said situation when there is abuse so
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, is there anything like that where you go?
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, if I could flip a switch right now or wave a magic wand, and there's like a couple little changes made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are there little things like that that you think would make a big difference?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or with that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think every therapist office needs to have a little booklet and some states do that just tells you these are red flags and this is the boards that you contact if you have any concern that's that would be easy to do right I mean if you don't have anything to hide that shouldn't be a big deal and I thought about the nurse thing and but the thing is like with it would
[SPEAKER_02]: it would be nice if you could choose your own other therapist to bring into sessions, a good therapist should not care and be able to have somebody there with you, just to kind of make, just to kind of check things out with you because the thing is my abusive psychiatrist had a partner who was in Kuhutsu with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it would need to be somebody that you choose not somebody
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like a good therapist shouldn't feel threatened by another set of eyes.
[SPEAKER_02]: If there's no ill intent, so those are the only two things that come to mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, before I get into the production site, I got to ask this.
[SPEAKER_00]: for those who have experienced therapist abuse.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, where do you go at that point?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that's one of the things that comes up during this show is I'm often pushing people, like my listeners, like if you haven't ever done therapy, if you haven't ever talked through these things, if you haven't ever sought support, and then I talk to people like you and me and I go,
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope nobody goes to a therapist and has a abusive experience there, you know, and and this happens across the board like when someone's been sexually assaulted and they go to the doctor that can be a more traumatic experience when I push for the go to the police that can be a traumatic experience like seeking out a civil suit against an abuser is a traumatic and so I'm I'm curious from the both of you, you know, when you have a therapist who's violating this trust.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a weird abuse case to say, well, go seek out therapy and try to heal from that because it's triggering on the surface, but then you've got all these other layers on top of it where, you know, my susceptible to this even more so now is there, am I going to have the same experience?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do at that point?
[SPEAKER_00]: What what do you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I hope so I just want to say this subject is one of the most, it's on the top of my list that I'm passionate about because.
[SPEAKER_01]: My story had a lot to do with what happened to me after my first traumatic experience and always getting into the wrong hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was not qualified and didn't understand that this type of trauma didn't, you know, it's like if you're almost died in a burning building, if somebody is lighting matches around you, you're going to act differently than somebody who's never almost died in a fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're not a normal patient after this has happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when therapists don't understand that, I mean, it can be so disastrous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I don't like admitting this, but I had three suicide attempts, really, it's my therapy harm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they all came after the primary trauma from therapists who didn't know what the heck they were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: who made mistakes as well, didn't understand how their own behavior was playing into my previous promise, even though they knew about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, honestly, it was, it was a big mess.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I feel so passionate about this subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if somebody has been harmed, I'd say, first of all,
[SPEAKER_01]: get with survivors.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I personally will never go back to therapy ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not a candidate for it anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have found healing through my friendship with Amy from meeting other survivors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would encourage them to do Amy's book club or get into a group with survivors, which when this first happened to me didn't exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was tell
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there was nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no groups.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that what Amy has done is such a beautiful thing that she took her trauma and has turned around to helping others.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, she has had the presence of mine to write a book and, you know, to really share her experience and, you know, so I say reach out to survivors.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would not, I personally myself, Jennifer,
[SPEAKER_01]: cannot encourage anybody to go to therapy, if they think of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm sure Amy has a different perspective, but I say get with survivors.
[SPEAKER_02]: I completely understand Jennifer's perspective, and I found contacting other survivors hugely helpful, especially in the early days, really just knowing that I wasn't alone, but the amount of
[SPEAKER_02]: That is left behind when a therapist abuses a vulnerable client and therapy is just so massive that I didn't find You know well-meaning family and friends and even other survivors Capable of handling that much trauma and that much pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me It was important to seek out a another therapist and although it is scary, they are out there and
[SPEAKER_02]: I was able to do a year of EMDR therapy after my abuse and I found that hugely helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just hear recently found a therapist who is safe and ethical and is helping me tremendously.
[SPEAKER_02]: So while I know it is stressful to get back out there, I do think that it can be really hugely beneficial to do so.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also feel like finding healing and the same relationship that harmed you.
[SPEAKER_02]: is a really healing and beneficial thing to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just need to be especially compassionate and patient to this topic.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, before I found this lady in telehealth, I went to somebody local, I thought, oh my friend likes her, it will be fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a big mistake.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I told her right up front, I'm a therapy arm survivor, I'm an advocate, I wrote a book, I just want you to know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a small town, I don't know who knows who,
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if the second session, she told me she wasn't comfortable working with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was afraid to work with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, naively, oh, are you worried?
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll trigger me?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm afraid I fear for my license.
[SPEAKER_02]: Perth was probably one of the most abusive things a subsequent therapist could say to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to work with you that type the types that turn in therapist for no reason it was just absolutely unacceptable I had the same situation where nobody because I had suit suit a therapist and like I said I had this trauma, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: I, this is really about, you know, I've never been comfortable talking about my own experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, I have so much shame attached to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I did have several suicide attempts.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how bad it was for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, and because I had suit of therapist, you know, nobody wouldn't mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they treated me like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was the black plague.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was just absolutely awful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I met a holistic psychiatrist who then found my biggest person who hurt me the most.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, she was very open in the beginning about, you know, oh, you're so honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you're so truthful.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the basis for a great, you know, a great relationship, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I thought, you know, and then when I went to her office, there was somebody that came out of her office that was in a wheelchair who couldn't really even speak.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, wow, she can communicate with this woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a well.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is just the place I meant to be, and I didn't know that I was in for my worst experience and I have our experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and it makes you more vulnerable when people don't want to work with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're, you know, it's, it's a, it's a very cruel part of this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's Jennifer, then there's the label.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we were interviewing about 50 survivors, it almost became laughable because all of us were called borderline, delusional or psychotic.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, subsequent therapists are then judgmental because now we come with a label.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if this isn't like made known to the general public to therapists, how frequently their colleagues are doing this, then we're always going to be judged.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they need to understand how common this is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's let's talk about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned interviewing 50 plus people so far for this project.
[SPEAKER_00]: First and foremost, I mean, the need for the documentary is clearly there, but I'm curious the angle that you have with it and the direction that you want it to go is this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this something you view as an overview of the fact that this happens?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that this, you know, because most people I don't think even consider therapist abuse to be a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not something that's on most people's radar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it something where you're going after, you know, the boards and how they handle this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you willing to focus on the a couple of individual stories?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what's the overall direction you're wanting to take this?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as you, as you keep moving forward on it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we considered originally a documentary feature, which is, you know, slightly under two hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, the more we got into it, the more we realized know this really needs to be a series.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's so much nuance and there's so many issues to tackle around this that to, you know, hurry up and fit it into a package of like a documentary feature.
[SPEAKER_01]: cover all the issues that we want to cover.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a very bad time in the film world right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: People are having a very hard time getting financing for even documentary features or just about everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very, very tough time in the film right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even some major producers are having a hard time fully funding their documentary features.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are with a semi large series of seven episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're we're not very yet to the point where we're being confronted of whether that's actually going to be possible if we have to lessen it down to three episodes, but as of now what we designed was a seven episodes theories where I personally felt and I and I'm totally okay if I'm not featured as a subject the talking memory.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm totally fine with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of see myself more as, you know, a producer, hopefully I can direct an episode or two, because that's already my profession, but really supporting all the survivors to have their voice tell their story and to keep a.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep a protective eye around the authenticity of what we want to do and so that's how I see myself is almost like the protector of the vision of what we're trying to do and I really so it would start the series would start with basically Amy's story because I feel
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that Amy has created the amazing platform by taking her story and helping others.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the human side of the documentary is following Amy through her story, how she took the trauma and turned it around for good, how she's helped all these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a journey through her advocacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first episode would be Amy and her story and writing her book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to tackle male survivors, which people don't know about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Intersectionality and harm, which is also a very interesting subject of how being African-American or gay or transgender, how real life,
[SPEAKER_01]: issues that they face can be pathologized and how that can be also something under the category of harm and then another episode would be reporting and retaliation.
[SPEAKER_01]: and all the things that can happen, the retaliation stories of our survivors are really extreme.
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to also tackle collusion, how therapists protect themselves, protect each other, and people will not come forward and report their colleagues.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a lot of protecting of the people, the abusers,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then my one of my favorite subjects than the another episode would be on therapy after harm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how there is no education for therapists in dealing with people who have been harmed in therapy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there should be like a special class that required to take or there should be education on it because there are it's more common than people know and there has to be education.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's an episode on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: all the survivors coming together in one place like a reunion and either doing, yeah, either doing, because it's called hashtag therapy too, which is a little wink on the me too movement.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, either it would be Amy organizing this big event where all the survivors are going to come together and everybody meets in person for the first time or it also could be, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: by somebody and going in, having a group interview type thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's sort of how we've out design a series and we really want to do a deep dive and not leave anything out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted to say that my fear is if we're not able to go deep enough, the general public will assume that any of us that are going to counseling,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're messed up, they're sitting wrong with us already.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel like it's like we have to prove extra.
[SPEAKER_02]: If that makes sense, we have another hurdle to overcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure as in people watching going that that's it like there's not more to this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like, these are mentally ill people that are going to therapy and having some crazy experience, yes, or or it's just some, you know, entertainment feature on these that crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interface out there and these crazy things that have happened without really educating that this is like a huge epidemic, right, it's yeah, that's my biggest hope and concern.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, to be cut short and fall short of all the facts and all the nuances and all the, you know, everything, it's not just the abuse, it's what happens to you after.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't end with the abuse, it's just, it's so many more issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: And even just being able to explain how adults are groomed is huge, because the general public doesn't even think that can happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think kids can be groomed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I didn't think I could be groomed either until it happened to me so that's something that needs to be understood or just leave it open for ridicule.
[SPEAKER_00]: So someone's listening right now, you know, obviously you're doing a ton of pre-production right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a way people can support it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a way they can voice, like, interest in it?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that way when you're going and pitching, you know, you've got some ammunition behind you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if someone's listening right now goes, well, obviously we need this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is something that's important.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the best thing someone can do to help move this thing along?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you could list my website, that would be amazing because on my website, there's
[SPEAKER_02]: And in that section is a link to a fundraising page and also a link to a Google form where that it can just fill out and say, I'm interested.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is who I am.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a brief history of my experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would like to take part.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that would probably be the best.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also a face in that website.
[SPEAKER_00]: That website for someone listening is Amy Nord Hughes.com, I'll link to it in the show notes as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's Amy and our DHEES.com has one to make sure I say that in case someone, people never go to the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just say it there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that way someone can go check that out and you mentioned there's a Facebook page as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a Facebook page and if they could like that and follow it, that would be hugely helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that yours as well?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it, is it named?
[SPEAKER_00]: Hashtag therapy too?
[SPEAKER_02]: it's hashtag therapy to docu-series.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go like that right now because I don't think I am so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've been posting a lot of survivor videos there in education.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's not just following the page.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of good stuff on there if you are a survivor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the poster artwork, by the way, I know I mentioned it when you shared it on your personal page, but I just saw it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll throw it out if you're listening to this, I'm not going to show you here, just go over and like the page and you can you can see it for yourself, Jennifer, I feel like I interrupted you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you have something that you were going to add to that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just, you know, it's obviously we need financial support.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know where this is going to go right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are shooting a teaser in Los Angeles on October 13.
[SPEAKER_01]: We need financial support to keep this cause.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's a very important cause to give survivors of voice and to educate the public about the risks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also to teach people what proper therapy looks like.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, hopefully, my biggest dream is to enlighten therapists themselves about the role of the takerable they play in the role of the lives of their patients.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we do need financial support to keep this going because as of right now, it's Amy and I, you know, it's, we've raised a little money, but not merely enough to, you know, to, you know, hopefully we will get a major producer, we have an interest of a major producer who we can't say who it is at this point, but, you know, all the other stuff comes out of our own pocket and so need support that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm really interested to see where this goes and and definitely I think it's it's it's needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like there's been so many incredible documentaries and so many industries over the past couple years and this feels like something that I mean, Amy before your book, it was something that I never
[SPEAKER_00]: what if thought to look into, you know, and so I can't be the only one in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only problem is is that it's something that people don't know needs money put at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't know that there's a project that needs to move forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully this helps a little bit get some attention on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really interested to see where this goes over the next couple of months.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this entire episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are interested in supporting a documentary like this, be sure once again, head over to AmyNordhuse.com and click the link that tells you a little bit more about this documentary series.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, there's some incredible poster art.
[SPEAKER_00]: some clips already present there that you can check out and there's also opportunities to support this important and timely project.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will see you next week on the Prejabois podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been listening to the Prejabois podcast hosted by Eric Squizinski.
[SPEAKER_00]: The intro music Bible Belt was performed by Lou Ridley.
[SPEAKER_04]: Come on, we are gathered here today To praise the only fire to fill the glory of his name Anyone can worship here so long as you act straight Pay your ties and follow rules even the ones God didn't make Hey, can we buy one?