[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Come Follow Him Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: This podcast is created by the Boise Nampah Institute of Religion for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here, we hope to help young adults find relevant principles each week as they study the Assign Come Follow Me in Scripture Block as outlined by the Church.
[SPEAKER_01]: This episode is simply two institutes talking about what they see in the Scriptures that might be relevant to your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not intended to speak for the church or to definitively define doctrines or policies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any opinion shared here are just that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our opinions as we have learned to come follow him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Matt Swanson.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's jump in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, welcome back, everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good to be with you again this week.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am with my good friend, Brother Ike Stafford, Brother Stafford, welcome back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, hello, hello.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good to have you and always fun to sit and talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had some time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had some time to chat before we started here today and really excited about these sections.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe more than most.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get into a couple of things as maybe pet doctrines to study in my life and a lot of that stuff is found in these verses and sections.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be in section 129 through 132 today.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot in there, but I think we've got a pretty good plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of excited about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we start anything you want to touch on anything you want to just start us with?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, maybe for your listeners, understand the context of what, you know, we're experiencing.
[SPEAKER_03]: For the listeners, it's going to be several weeks past this moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: But right now, we just learned of the passing of President Russell M. Nelson and the tribute from the day that we're recording this, the tribute to him was yesterday, and then General Conference is this weekend, and then of course, Tuesday will be his funeral.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, maybe just for our listeners to maybe reflect on what we're experiencing as we are recording, what are your thoughts and what are your feelings about the passing of God's prophet?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am grateful to be able to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, I can I brother Stafford and I spend a lot of time together, best friends and we work together and some other things and we work at the Institute together and so we work together quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today's actually the first time we've been able to talk with each other really since President Nelson passed and it's interesting because when we got together we didn't bring it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't even talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just kind of was part of our life that we're moving
[SPEAKER_01]: And it struck me right before we hit record I said, hey, can I just say something we haven't talked about that is that like weird and is that okay and and I think what's cool about it is we don't really need to we know how the churches programs work the Lord set it up in a way that makes sense and is structured and is organized and
[SPEAKER_01]: And the senior most apostle has, I think, in every case, been called to be the next prophet, that would be Elder Oaks, President Oaks, and now that could change, there could be some change to that system, but we don't have to worry about not having leadership in our church.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's something comforting about that, not that not talking about President Nelson's passing is a good thing this, certainly, but we're just not worried about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, similar for me, you know, when I had heard the President of some past, immediately my thoughts were grief and sorrow at the loss of my profit of God's profit, who I've followed for the past, you know, followed closely for the past seven and a half years.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then my thoughts began evolving and thinking about God and his kingdom on earth and the Christ directs this work and it will be really interesting of course our listeners after the fact we'll know how this all plays out but the succession and the presidency just to know that the
[SPEAKER_03]: And it'll be neat to see how it unfolds, and the power that comes from God's next prophet, I am so excited to listen to His words.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited to reflect on President Nelson's words, and what Christ has inspired him to teach us, and to continue to apply those, and then I'm looking forward very much closely to what the next prophet is going to say, and what I can do as a result of what what he says, and what does what the Lord Jesus Christ
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's great, you know, the, the, the, the thought occurred to me just as you're saying that and talking about succession of profits that there's now a gap there's a, there's a, there's a missing, a possible in the, in the, in the quorum and, and so they will likely be a new apostle called whether it's a conference or shortly after I don't know, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the history of the church that sometimes has taken a little while, but it usually takes a while when the prophet is incapacitated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know when President Kimball was sick and in the hospital there were some months and months where the members of the first presidency couldn't talk to him about who to call.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there were these holes in the in the form of the 12 for a period of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one night elder President Kimball woke up.
[SPEAKER_01]: was as lucid as he'd ever been and said I need to talk to the counselors and he got the counselors there within like a half hour and told them who the next apostle ought to be and that they ought to be working on that they had been working on I think before but anyway so just cool to see the way that the Lord works with with the church.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, sorry to jump in a little earlier, but the Lord Jesus Christ leads this church.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is his church.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not the church of man.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is Jesus Christ church and the direction and the speed at which he does it is it's determined by him and and he knows best and and I'm excited to see how this unfolds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well with that why don't we just jump in where section 129 maybe give us a little context for this and then or or give us context for where we're going to ultimately end up that would be good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, certainly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, for our listeners who are familiar with the context of this please forgive me, because I haven't had an opportunity to listen yet to the the prior weeks podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we're basically four-ish years removed from Liberty jail.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so roughly what's happened in the between time is we're now in a Navu period.
[SPEAKER_03]: and really what is consuming most of the revelations is information about the redemption of a dead, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: As this doctrine is being unfolded to the church membership, that's what the prior sections have been about is the redemption of the dead and they're working through that and figuring out how that works practically and what it means.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're now transitioning, we're in 1843 and now we're learning more about the eternal nature of families.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's kind of the bulk of what our come follow me is this week, which of course is a super powerful and comforting doctrine, it can also be surrounded with some some concerns and even some confusion and maybe about family members and some of the doctrines, even our little uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_03]: want to say family members I mean what our family relationships look like if certain family members are are not currently following the covenant path or not currently on the fall the covenant path but that is the awesomeness of this block and this block interestingly the come follow me material produced by the church doesn't
[SPEAKER_03]: even talk about section 29.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll just jump in and say section 29.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's one of those ones.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a teacher where you just say and section 132 is actually me section 130 is the same way, but it's one of those things where you can just say, all right, students open up section 129.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to start reading and they just like, whoa, what's going on?
[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, what does this mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just they're fascinating fascinating doctrines.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so they're funded to learn about and they create a natural curiosity.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_03]: For the listener's section 129, just go check it out.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, section 133, why don't I just turn that one over to you and say, there's some, there's some fun things in there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where do you want to,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I appreciate the invitation, you know, we talked about just kind of doing the same thing with 130 and given it to you as a listener to go and study and then jumping into the concept of celestial marriage and plural marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as I scanned over it again, I thought, and there's some really
[SPEAKER_01]: really important doctrines that are foundational to our belief that we learn from this section.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe I'll just share with you verses one and 22 and 23 says when the Savior shall appear, we shall see him as he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: We shall see that he is a man like ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, if we skip over to 22, the father has a bloody of flesh and bones as tangible as man's son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, there's a person who just spear it, or it not so the Holy could, Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think just to make up a nature of the Godhead is important here, we know that they are tangible beings.
[SPEAKER_01]: We would assume that from the first vision, but here we get very clear descriptors of the the make up a nature of the father and the son and the Holy Ghost right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just an unassied that would be where somebody's time if they were interested in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice that when we're describing the bodies of these celestial beings, the father has a body of flesh and bones, and so does the sun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice that it's not flesh and blood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Blood is an interesting mortal element that is necessary.
[SPEAKER_01]: It also is the thing that degrades over time and causes our demise ultimately.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it would be worth our listeners' time to go and study what has been said about blood by prophets and apostles and what will replace that when we have resurrected eternal bodies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just think that's one doctor I think is worth spending a little bit of time on.
[SPEAKER_01]: The next one is the next verse, verse two.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that same sociology, which exists amongst us here, will exist amongst us there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Only it would be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll probably talk about that as a conversation with eternal families, but all of the associations we have, including father to child, mother to child, sibling relationships, aunts and uncles, grandparents, those relationships will continue in the next life.
[SPEAKER_01]: the same sociality that we have here will continue there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it will be a little different.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will understand it in a way that is maybe a little different than we see it here.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you are literally the brother of me in the next life and we're standing talking to Heavenly Father,
[SPEAKER_01]: And my dad walks up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will probably reference my Heavenly Father as my father and my dad as My earthly father.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know is your brother, so maybe he's my brother in that moment, but but I just think that's an important doctrine that we see there
[SPEAKER_01]: And then everything else is probably a little heavy and eternal.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking in Section 130 verse 6.
[SPEAKER_01]: The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth, but they reside in the presence of God on a globe, like a sea of glass, or all things, or for their glory, are manifest past present in future.
[SPEAKER_01]: the earth that we live on will be sanctified in an immortal state.
[SPEAKER_01]: It will also become a sea of glass, like a crystal and act like a Yermen Thummel.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something about white stones being given to us that will also act as Yermen Thummel's referencing revelations to 17.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that, as we talk about and try to understand the plan of salvation and its fullness, there are some really important doctrines and principles that we learn here in this section that help us understand our eternal nature where we will live, how that place may help us function and know all things past present in future.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we know that about God, God knows all things past present in future.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm going to become like God, I will also have to know things all past present future.
[SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps this doctrine of the earth becoming a great yerman thumb-um is the way that I will do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps it's the way that God does that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we haven't been taught that necessarily, but I think there's some doctrinal things that help us see the plan in the future.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just one more thing in passing, verse 18 and 19,
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with this in the resurrection.
[SPEAKER_01]: If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than the other, he will have so much of the advantage in the world to come.
[SPEAKER_01]: That I think is the reason why we just keep learning.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I am one to think that in the pre-existence, we didn't all say by to Jesus, as He went off to school to learn to be like God, I think we probably all were taught things, and He being the eldest was obtained and obtained much more than most of us, and probably all of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: but that we'll be able to obtain new knowledge is here that we didn't have there and that we'll go back with that new knowledge.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, it just keep learning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay in the, stay in the books, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll all throughout your life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, anyway, there's just a lot in there that, that I think is there is.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not, but anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Matthew, you did have that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, you talked more doctrine only, just a doctrine that's that's in here that's not stated explicitly like the others is a doctrine that God has a prophet and that prophets can see around corners.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you look versus 12 through 12 and 13, this is Joseph Smith.
[SPEAKER_03]: The way I kind of teach this is Joseph Smith is kind of doubling down on a prophecy that he gave 10 years earlier.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how this happens, but in section 87 he talks about how the southern states will rise against the northern states, and they'll be a war, and then in section 130, and I don't know how this all came about, but it just seems to Joseph is discoursing on these doctrines, and then he's like, oh yeah, somebody asked me about this prophecy that hasn't come to pass yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: It'll happen and he gets more specific about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: right saying that it will commence in South Carolina on the slave question.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's in section 130.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's 10 years after the prior after previously prophesied about it and then 10 years later he says, no, this is going to happen and more specifically, this is how it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: And interestingly, forgive me for nerdin' out on this for just a minute, but it's good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interestingly, we're still 18 years ahead of the Civil War, which begins, of course, Fort Sumter, South Carolina, on April 12th, 1861.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're still 18 years ahead of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So 28, 29 years prior is when Joseph originally prophesized this.
[SPEAKER_03]: But God has a prophet on earth, and the prophet knows and the Lord shares with him, things that are going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, and as an interesting with and all the doctrine that I was just talking about, there's this little like, oh, and here, just kind of insert it in there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to know stuff and here's how the here's how a profit does it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I just see there's a lot in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's something in here that ties us directly into the next section and talking about Van Lamp and Plora Marriage when we get to 2021, but I'll let you take it from there,
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so what's a pause for just a minute and listeners and Matthew here is your question and listeners obviously don't get an answer, but Matthew you're going to answer this question just a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes, when we are obedient to God, the blessings we hope for don't come right away.
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do you math you maintain your faith and hope when this happens in your life?
[SPEAKER_03]: That's your question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So read verses 20 and 21 for us and then tell us in your own words with those verses mean.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is section 130.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's first 20.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world upon which all blessings are predicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, that every law has a positive and probably consequential, uh, blessing or cursing maybe even associated with it, and that you by obtaining those blessings, it is really only done through obedience to whatever the law associated to that blessing is, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so prayer, for example, if I pray,
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that God will hear my prayer and eventually I will have an answer to my prayer and some former fashion, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the blessing associated with the act of prayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that I think so yeah jumped the next section section 132 sorry, I want to say the next section two sections later section 132 verse five we're just going to pluck this verse right now verse number five read that one out first five for all who have a blessing at my hand shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing in the conditions thereof as were instituted from before the foundation of the world many questions so there it is again
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I can remember when I was younger, observing people that were breaking the commandments of God.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll just do the example of when I was in college playing basketball and I had teammates who were not members of the church.
[SPEAKER_03]: And some of the choices they were making,
[SPEAKER_03]: were contrary to God's will.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now they hadn't been taught the same way I had.
[SPEAKER_03]: But to me, it was a little bit puzzling how they could be so successful at the sport when they were in violation of certain laws and commandments.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then I realized that those teammates of mine were strictly obedient to other sets of laws that were directly relational to their success and basketball.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so there are there are all kinds of different laws upon which we can, you know, if we follow the commandments related to family, marriage and family, we can have success and marriage and family.
[SPEAKER_03]: but maybe we're not following the laws of stewardship and principles of finance that can be successful.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we can have Mary's family and vice versa, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so all God has appointed certain laws as we follow them, then the blessings they flow.
[SPEAKER_03]: And these and as he states here,
[SPEAKER_03]: those laws were from before the foundations of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like I like the idea that that we adhere to some laws and principles because they bless us immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see the outcomes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Basketball practice elevates the player, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he learns that that concept and then he's willing to go practice more consistently.
[SPEAKER_01]: It reminds me of President Nelson's face to face with the young adults where he talked about heart surgery and how they learned that they could put a chemical into the heart that would stop it and another chemical would start it every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so at one point somebody asks, well what happens when it doesn't?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he responded, it always does.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just always does.
[SPEAKER_01]: Period.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I thought that was kind of cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the laws are there.
[SPEAKER_03]: If we want the blessing, we abide in the law.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then comes the question of timing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So back to that question originally, how have you met you maintained your faith when you're following the blessings.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or you're following the law upon which blessing to predicate it, but the blessing is not coming yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is probably something I've learned to do in the last five or 10 years maybe, but I think the what I tend to do is
[SPEAKER_01]: If the blessing is an immediately forthcoming, I change the prayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I ask for something I know he wants to do that might help me see it differently or ask for it in a different way or ask for something that's necessary first, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, years ago when we acquired our home,
[SPEAKER_01]: We were being given a wonderful opportunity to get into a house in a way that we never could have done in any other circumstance.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it became dependent on our selling the other house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was asking for the other house to sell our previous home to sell and I kept asking and asking months went by and finally the opportunity was going to go away unless we could sell our home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I went to the Lord and I said, I've done everything I can and all I need is for something to change so that this deal can go through if it's my house selling great, if it's not and it's something else great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next day, we got a phone call from someone who was involved in this in their new home purchase.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they wanted to meet and came up with a completely different method of solving the problem without us having to even sell our house.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it took, in fact, it was interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife said, one of my favorite things in the Bible dictionary is a definition of prayer.
[SPEAKER_01]: where it talks about blessings are made conditional and are asking for them, and many of the difficulties that arise from prayer arise from forgetting a relationship, and that sometimes if we don't ask for the blessing outright, we miss an opportunity to have God just give us a blessing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she had said that.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, we haven't just asked him to fix the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've said, help us know what bank to go to and help us, and that never really felt like it was
[SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe we just needed asking to fix a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we did that night and the next day, problem solved.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think sometimes for me, when the blessings aren't coming immediately, I've learned to change what I'm asking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at it more closely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Turn it around, ask for something that maybe is necessary before I can obtain the thing I've really been asking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe even asking God, what should I ask for?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it that you're waiting for?
[SPEAKER_01]: Help me see it somewhere in my studies or in my, you know, in someone that's divinely appointed in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So changing it, just changing what you're asking for, maybe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting principle.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think related to that is,
[SPEAKER_03]: as it relates to timing, and maybe your experience as an institute teacher is different than mine, and this isn't gonna surprise our listeners, but as institute teachers regularly, students come to us for counseling.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't say we're counselors, but sometimes they see us as people who've navigated this time in their life, and so that they come to us and request counsel about how to proceed with, or you know, choices, or what should I study?
[SPEAKER_03]: For me,
[SPEAKER_03]: For whatever reason, I think it makes sense, but I get a lot of adult men, young adult men coming to me for council don't get a lot of young adult women, but a lot of young adult men and again, maybe this is different for you, but the number one.
[SPEAKER_03]: thing that they, if it is on their hearts and their minds, is their righteous desire to have an eternal marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my heart just aches, and I just, I just love these young adults men so much, and I just want them so, so deeply, I have the desire for them to have a celestial marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what they want, and they're trying, and they're facing opposition in this, and
[SPEAKER_03]: and there's rejection and there's failure and there's time is passing and it's hard and it's real.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think about, you know, when they come to me in that feeling, I guess this made or downtrot on that topic, I just want to just, I just want to give them a spiritual hug and just say the blessings of eternity are yours if you remain faithful.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right now it's hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: But God is faithful.
[SPEAKER_03]: You remain faithful to God, and that celestial marriage, what you so desperately desire that righteous desire you have, it will come to you, God is faithful.
[SPEAKER_03]: It will happen, do not give up hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: Keep following the laws.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the most glorious relationship you've ever seen anybody have, it will be yours in the Lord's timing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's not a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not helpful too much, but no, I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the one of the challenges, especially with the young adults, is there's so many things are trying to work there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: First jobs, getting schooling done, or training done, finding their spouse, where are they going to live?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all those questions come up and it was interesting one, one face to face that Elder Bednor and Sister Bednor did with young adults.
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody asks a very similar question, what do I do?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not able to be married,
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't found the right one and how do I, how do I can show the Lord that I'm willing that I'm trying to be obedient and other Bednars Council was actually really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, you should live as if you already have the thing you're asking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: When would you go to bed if you were married every night?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where would you, how often would you eat out?
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you play video games as much as you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you, and he just went through this litany of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And every single one of them, you would do differently if you were married with a spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, if you're wanting to prove to the Lord that you're ready for something,
[SPEAKER_01]: live as if you have that thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Change the actions that you that you're taking every day and act as if the Lord has already given you that blessing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he can show him I'm willing.
[SPEAKER_01]: He knows that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But but I think that's a that's a wonderful principle, whether it's marriage or it's anything else we're asking for in our lives that if we live as if we already have it, then when it comes, it will be easier to maintain.
[SPEAKER_03]: help.
[SPEAKER_03]: What a beautiful principle taught by Elderbednar and reaffirmed by you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just briefly reminds me, maybe even a fictitious story, but I bet if I go a little bit, I could find it, but one of the church leaders, but we'll just call it a fictitious story where somebody finds out how this faithful member of the church, how much he's paying and tithing.
[SPEAKER_03]: and they say, wow, I didn't know you made that much money and he said, oh, I don't pay typing on what I make.
[SPEAKER_03]: I pay typing on what I want to make.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting thought.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe maybe don't do that, but yeah, I'd be poor every day.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all my income off the dieting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so let's transition as we're talking about this
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, when you teach this, we have questions about, I don't know where you go.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go to section 131.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the come follow me material takes us straight to section 132.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're going to stay true to the come follow me material.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to go to section 132.
[SPEAKER_03]: But as we read these verses, Matthew, you have a specific assignment.
[SPEAKER_03]: Your assignment is to look for phrases that help us to understand the difference between what will remain and what will not remain.
[SPEAKER_03]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, and then maybe I have another question for you as, as we said is.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll go to section 132.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's start in verse number.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go 13.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead, if you would.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm looking for what again.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're looking for the phrases that help us understand the difference between what will remain eternally and what will not.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that word remains specifically.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, verse 31, 32 verse 13, and everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatever they be, that are not by and down, and shall not remain after men or dead, neither.
[SPEAKER_01]: in nor after the resurrection, say at the Lord your God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, keep going.
[SPEAKER_01]: For whatsoever things remain our by me and whatsoever things are not by me.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'll be shaken and destroyed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, before we talk about those phrases, let's go to 15 and then let's talk about a couple phrases.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, therefore, if a man married him a wife in the world, and he married her not by me, nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world, and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they are out of the world, therefore they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, then he phrases stand out to you or concepts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, just that that, uh, well, maybe the principal or concept that, you know, those that are, are unaware of celestial marriage and ceiling in a temple, um, we believe we'll have an opportunity to have their marriage sealed in a temple, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we do temple ceilings for those that have passed without the gospel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's a maybe umbrella thing that we need to sedate.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that what comes to my mind is just general Christian philosophy that God knows I love my wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we're going to be together in the next life, and that will that will be a thing without any ratification, without any authority or power of sealing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a general belief or at least a desire of mankind.
[SPEAKER_01]: But God saying here without his sanctioning, that won't be the case.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, so this idea of this marriage remaining, I love this question from the the Come Follow Me material.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me pose the question to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think it means for a marriage relationship to be, quote, buy the Lord or buy his word?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it uses that term several times, the verse 14, 15, before you answer that question, let's just go establish
[SPEAKER_03]: It's long, but keep in mind that phraseology or that term by the Lord or by his word.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead and read verse 19 and I'll interrupt you because it's long one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay, and again, barely, I swearly, barely I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and is sealed upon them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priestess.
[SPEAKER_03]: Stop there for a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that shall be,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: So right there, he gives us three requirements as a first 19, three things that if they happen this way, the net marriage remains any turnity and the first thing just to establish the doctor and the first thing is that enter into the new and everlasting covenant sealed by the all these beard of promise and buy somebody who is appointed and has power and the keys of the priesthood.
[SPEAKER_03]: So authority, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, new and everlasting covenant of marriage, those three things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know this is too interesting to you, but do you have a thought on what it means for a marriage relationship to be by the Lord?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's an interesting thing because the first thing he says is very I say unto you, if a man married a wife by my word, I think a couple of different ways to look at that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Savior being the word that's right, the through the Savior that brings to mind the veil and the temple and everything we learn in the temple about Christ.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, what have we learned about marriage?
[SPEAKER_01]: What have we learned about the order of marriage?
[SPEAKER_01]: How it should be done?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who should marry the roles and responsibilities of those that are married?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the words that have been written about marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we take that and do that,
[SPEAKER_01]: That is really what it is by him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a defined blessing in our lives, and covenant really that has been established and defined by the Lord.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Lord, the Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is a relationship done by Jesus Christ?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I agree in his way.
[SPEAKER_03]: It reminds me yesterday in the tribute to President Nelson.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, this is not the funeral, but the tribute to President Nelson that happened yesterday to, from the time that we're recording this, Carl B. Cook told of an experience where President Nelson,
[SPEAKER_03]: I believe it was Carly Cook, and may have been Geralt Cussay, forgive me for not remembering exactly which one told this experience, but President Nelson came to their state conference, and President Nelson got to be in the home of this brother, and interacted with the family and had this wonderful experience, and then afterwards, President Nelson said something like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: He said to this brother, he said, your primary priest in duty is to the well-being of your wife.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's probably wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: So please forgive me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody who's listening, please forgive me.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's probably the wrong phraseology, but the idea was his primary responsibility was for
[SPEAKER_03]: the well-being, the happiness, the joy, the progression of his wife.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the teachings of President Nelson to help us understand.
[SPEAKER_03]: A marriage by the Lord for me means that my wife, that she really is, my primary priesthood responsibility, to care for, make sure she is progressing and happy and healthy and comfortable.
[SPEAKER_03]: and confident and on the covenant path and with joy and that she's cared for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, can I share why?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: If our objective is to become like our father in heaven and he is perfect and his spouse is also perfect, they become perfect as they become more like each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: As they obtain characteristics that are maybe a little more feminine, a little more masculine, and they've learned from each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Elder Bettner says this, he says, by divine design men and women are intended to progress together towards perfection and a fullness of glory because of their distinctive temperaments and capacities, males and females each bring to a marriage relationship unique perspectives and experiences, the man and the woman contribute differently but equally to a oneness and a unity that can be achieved in no other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: The man completes and perfects the woman and the woman completes and perfects the man as they learn from and mutually strengthen and bless each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that idea that, you know, you're you're to become one Is how you're to become perfected if I have a peach pie and an apple pie and I stick half a peach and a half an apple pie together and call it one pie That's not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are two halves of two different pies
[SPEAKER_01]: So simply putting me in my wife in the same room and saying we're married and we're trying to become one and I stay in apple pie and she stays a peach pie doesn't doesn't doesn't really mean The same thing is I think with the Lord's intended we become one when we become like each other and Contribute and our attributes.
[SPEAKER_03]: What a great insight into what it means to have a marriage by the Lord
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's transition from this doctrine of celestial marriage eternal marriage and we'll come back to it and I'd love to give you an opportunity to talk about the blessings of celestial marriage, but let's get into the doctrine of plural marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: Recognizing that sometimes this can be a little bit tricky for us to navigate.
[SPEAKER_03]: and it's not uncommon for people to have challenges to the doctrine of challenges with the doctrine of total marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: But let's teach the doctrine as God teaches it in the revelations.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll start there.
[SPEAKER_03]: The context of how the doctrine of plural marriage came about really, it's pretty clearly stated in Section 132 versus 1 and 2.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where does it come from?
[SPEAKER_01]: barely thus say at the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph, that in as much as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand where an eye the Lord justified my servant's Abraham Isaac Jacob, as also Moses David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principal and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines, behold and low, I am the Lord thy God and will answer thee as touching this matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So really the origins how does it come about for the doctor was revealed Joseph was asking the question help me understand why Abraham Isaac and Jacob Moses David and Solomon were allowed this thing or had this thing commanded of them and I want to understand it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe maybe just to give a little bit major context like Mac macro context.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe as early as the early 1830s to Joseph learn about Plural Marriage as a practice, and we're now 12 or 13 years later, where it's not being lived, we can read another places that he had been commanded to live that law and just refuse to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so at this point the revelation is coming because he said, okay, help me understand this, why did these guys do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: How was it commanded of them?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the Lord says, I'm going to teach you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so that's the context.
[SPEAKER_03]: Pause for just a minute because there's one quote I wanted to relate and maybe this is the perfect time of the podcast for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But on the topic of celestial marriage and families and it's just right out of the come follow me.
[SPEAKER_03]: President Henry B. Irring shared this council he received when he was worried about his family situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the quote is, you just live worthy of the celestial kingdom and the family arrangements will be more wonderful than you can imagine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to add my witness that families, circumstances, sometimes can be challenging and heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the promise from God is true.
[SPEAKER_03]: You live worthy of the laws, of this less-soaking them, and your family relationships will be more wonderful than you get a match.
[SPEAKER_03]: Love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect time for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so now let's go back to the doctrine of Plural Marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: establishing what God teaches about it, jump to verse number 34, I realize there's a lot that we're jumping past in section 132, but go to first number 34 and the Lord is going to answer the question to Joseph of how and why these these Old Testament prophets and Patriarchs had plural wives.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just 34.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, start in 34.
[SPEAKER_03]: It will read a series of verses, but start there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, God commanded Abraham and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: And why did she do it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because this was a law and from Hagar spring many people.
[SPEAKER_01]: This therefore was fulfilling among other things the promises.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then a rhetorical question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead 35.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was Abraham therefore under condemnation fairly I say in Tune for I the Lord commanded it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he makes a correlation or comparison between Pearl Marriage and this verse 36.
[SPEAKER_01]: Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nevertheless, it was written.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not not kill.
[SPEAKER_01]: Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for a righteousness.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to talk too much about that, but interesting how the Lord compares
[SPEAKER_03]: plural marriage to the act of Isaac, makes me Abraham taking Isaac and to the point where he was ready to offer his only son.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting that he uses that connection, makes that correlation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then he can, yeah, because just short on that, just because, you know, the principle is, I think that the Lord has commanded certain things to be true, always.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't kill.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't kill.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's always the command, except for when he commands otherwise.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And in those cases, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be Abraham and Isaac, though it didn't have to come to fruition.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be Nephi and Laban, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Those, those few times where the command is given for whatever reason the Lord has, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, good.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's now the right time to go to Jacob too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Look, yeah, so keep your minds in section 132 talking about Abraham and his plural marriages, but go to Jacob and let's establish the doctor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, given this was given to the Nephites, but the Lord is very clear on the doctrine of of marriage and plural marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: So,
[SPEAKER_03]: Jacob 227 and the context of this is that the Nephites, many of them are having plural wives and concubines, and so the profit of the time Jacob is then addressing the people or one of the church leader of the time Jacob is addressing the people and addressing the specific point.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jacob 227 go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just before I read that, Jacob, in the previous section of this chapter had talked about his great anxiety, not wanting to have to talk to his people about these things, but but he does.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, 27 he says, where for my brother and hear me and harken to the word of the Lord, for their shall not any man among you have, say, but be one wife and concubines he shall have.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a standard.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a law.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, just jump down past 28 and 29 and go to verse 30 from Jacob to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is the one of the reason the Lord gives to the Nephites, why he would ever go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: For if I will say at the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, they shall harken into these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the lie is one wife,
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I want to, and if I want to raise up a seed unto my peat unto him, of his people, then he might command otherwise.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, he doesn't as far as I know in the revelations of this dispensation.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't give that reason for plural marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't say the purpose is to raise up seed.
[SPEAKER_03]: But to the Nephi, he says, I might do it sometime for the purpose of raising up the seed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so now in our minds, go back to the Lord's commentary on Abraham and his plural marriages, verse 37.
[SPEAKER_01]: From section 137, yeah, Abraham received concubines and they bore him children and it was accounted unto him for righteousness because they were given unto him and he abode in my law.
[SPEAKER_01]: As Isaac also did, Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded and because they did none other things and that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation according to the promises and sits upon the thrones and are on
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he, you know, just, just quickly, when we take it back to what what we just learned in Jacob too, you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't tell us why in our dispensation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't tell us why he did that in Abraham and Isaac and Jacob's dispensation either.
[SPEAKER_01]: But look at what happened from those from Jacob we have the tribes of Israel from multiple spouses and right from Abraham and Isaac We obtain the people of God who that there's the righteous people being raised up on to God Right, so so maybe that was true, ancient, and maybe it's the same today or it was done in a for a different reason, but it's an interesting Lord then explains David and his political marriages verse 38 go ahead
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, David also received many wives and concubines and also Solomon and Moses my servants as also many others of my servants from the beginning of creation until this time, and in nothing did they sin, save in those things which they received not of me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they were good as law, except for when they received plural lives that were not from God.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he explains in verse 39, the prophet in David's time was Nathan, read verse 39, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: David's wives and concubines were given unto him by of me by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a critical, that's a critical doctrine here is to recognize that plural marriage is only authorized
[SPEAKER_03]: when somebody who has the keys from God appoints and authorizes it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true in our day as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in the early days of the church, people couldn't just go marry more than one life.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not how it worked.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was often a requirement for the prophet to invite that and suggest that and say this is something that's been appointed unto you to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which in many cases, there was a hard thing to receive, right, for the husband and the wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, that's an interesting principle found in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so, so talking about, so now that we kind of established this, this doctrine, do you want to go deeper into those verses?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we have most of the doctrinal points.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we're good on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's just talk about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really appreciated.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a church historian come and speak to seminary and institute teachers here in the, in this church, in the Boise Valley and she did a marvelous job.
[SPEAKER_03]: But something that I, one of the many things, many of the principles I pulled away from this, recognizing that many people struggle with
[SPEAKER_03]: with plural marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she started her presentation, which was wonderful.
[SPEAKER_03]: But she started a presentation by saying something like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: First, it's important to recognize that in the cultural context of 2025, the idea of a man having more than one wife is distasteful.
[SPEAKER_03]: and she used some other words, but I remember that word distasteful.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's something in us and the concept she was trying to relate to us is, it's important to recognize that something within us feels very uncomfortable with the idea of a man having more than one way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're just starting there in recognizing that that is in eight in us.
[SPEAKER_03]: just helps us to move forward recognizing this is a little bit uncomfortable and it's natural to have some concerns about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but and I think I think it's it's uncomfortable because the law is one wife that is the that is the law of God our spirits know that recognize that and so when it's contrary to that when we're being asked through something outside of that it does feel maybe not natural and not the way it should be.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So speaking to one young adult in particular about this, I asked for her experience with this and she shared her experience with kind of grappling with the concept of plural marriage in this dispensation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think maybe can we play that recording?
[SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead and go ahead and play it.
[SPEAKER_03]: for a marriage in this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was the topic that I really wasn't okay with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'll go.
[SPEAKER_00]: And had to really put on the shelf.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was there for a few years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I started working for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The love and institute.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they had his friend Keith Erdson come and give us a seminar.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the whole goal of the seminar was to help institute teachers
[SPEAKER_00]: these really hard topics and and what resources they could offer their students to where they were getting a really good basis of truth and and it's much historical context as we could get them and it was really helpful for me because he very logically
[SPEAKER_00]: explained a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_00]: One was that during Joseph's time, the ceiling ordinance was a very horizontal, and everybody wanted to be married to Joseph or connected to him in some way, because that was the least that they would be it would find salvation.
[SPEAKER_00]: and exaltation through the ceiling ordinance too, Joseph specifically, and we literally learned that that, you know, more evolation came out after he stepped in and is there was new profits who came and explained that the ordinance is
[SPEAKER_00]: meant to be more of a vertical connection to ancestors and to God specifically and then it was a covenant with God and that's where the exaltation comes through and that was what aspect that really helped and another was that the context of women in the church and the kind of the situations that they were put in.
[SPEAKER_00]: needing places to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: There were lots of pioneers coming over and not necessarily that there weren't enough men but there wasn't enough help for these women and there wasn't and there weren't enough people established.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the people who were, they did have land, they did have money, they did have the resources to take care of these women.
[SPEAKER_00]: It became more
[SPEAKER_00]: have this, these ordinances, have these families and they were able to support each other and and I think we have a very different perspective now of what that looked like because we have so many freedoms and independence, but back in that day it wasn't that was the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: and that was the help that it could be offered.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of these women have, if so many testimonies of these women, who needed that, and it was such a blessing for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for you, a didn't even be there with Keith Erickson, George Historian, and learning from him was really helpful for you navigating this, was challenging.
[SPEAKER_03]: What would you say to somebody who doesn't have that opportunity to
[SPEAKER_03]: to have regular discussions with Keith Erickson.
[SPEAKER_03]: What resources for you have been helpful in navigating this or what you'd recommend for somebody else?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of the testimonies as a women specifically, if you're having like really difficult feelings about what they were going through, read their journals and experiences and those resources are online, we have a lot of them in the Justice Smith papers and you can find them even the, I know that the 14 year old that was married to Joseph, she has a lot of testimonials
[SPEAKER_00]: her experience and what a blessing it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And how I'm born, having that word that's us for, and so I think that, yeah, if you're having hard feelings about that, it kind of internalizing those feelings with yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's a really interesting person.
[SPEAKER_03]: What would you want people to know who might give us into the podcast?
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you want them to know about your own personal witness of Jesus Christ and his restored gospel in light of
[SPEAKER_00]: That God knows us individually and a lot of these hardships and like struggles that we have with historical context, they really come from places within ourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're feeling really poorly about yourself or about a situation that you've been put in,
[SPEAKER_00]: that can be reflected in this historical context and just with the understanding moving forward that God sees that and he knows that and kind of putting it in a more logical place can help us heal from those our own experiences and gain perspective of those historical
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your witness.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a wonderful young person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: grateful to get to work around her and have her be so present.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love everything she said.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the way she approached that and in setting on a shelf until she had an access to somebody that could help her understand a little differently is the right thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes we all, I was going to say young adults, but I think we all question the church because we have a question about something that happened in the church or some doctrine of principle or policy, so we throw the whole thing into the pot, as opposed to saying, okay, well, this one thing I don't understand, everything else, I believe in the book of Mormon and know that Jesus is the Christ, I know that Joseph was a prophet.
[SPEAKER_01]: This plural marriage thing, now I wonder if Joseph was a prophet, and has got even real, and so we kind of in conflate the one thing with all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think she did a wonderful thing by saying, I'm going to lead with my faith.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to set this issue on a shelf, and then I'm going to pull it down every once in a while and study it.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then when she was given a resource, she really did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved the idea that she goes to the women who actually lived in that time to find out how they felt about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What a novel idea, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that we're more offended than they were.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, maybe there's something we ought to check about ourselves, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, as I have done that, as I've studied,
[SPEAKER_01]: the words of the late Kimble, for example, Hebrcy Kimble's wife and her experience in finding out about plural marriage and the way that that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, that there are some things that I need to check about how I feel about it, if the late had such a fantastic experiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for sure, we should all go and study and spend our own time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I love the way she went about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that was very
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Helen Markimble, maybe, is who you're referring to, or, or, oh, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Baby, I.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I love, I could comment so much on what Brenna had to say, but if I could just maybe highlight a couple of points, um, I love that for her, she has a way in which she was able to navigate this.
[SPEAKER_03]: She had it on the shelf and now it's not on the shelf anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for her, what worked is probably going to be different for most people, but for her interesting, interesting, like what worked for her, if I was to characterize it, I would
[SPEAKER_03]: When she understood the practicalities of what was happening, then she was like, oh, okay, this makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because for her contextually before she couldn't, she couldn't grasp it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But once she understood the greater picture of what was going on in that time area, time era,
[SPEAKER_03]: And when she read from the women who actually practiced it, what their experience was, then she said, oh, okay, I can be okay with this now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so for our listeners, my counsel is if this is a hard thing for you to do,
[SPEAKER_03]: then maybe take Brenna's recommendation and read some of the accounts of the women who who read it, or excuse me, who lived it, study some of the cultural context.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's great resources and the come follow me material for this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, that's where I'd recommend you start.
[SPEAKER_03]: right there in the Come Follow Me Material, there is outstanding information and it stares this right in the face and it will help you navigate this and gain greater perspective and ultimately understand who God is a little bit better and come closer to your Savior.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that, you know, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I shared about the late, you said Helen Marr and, you know, he received had multiple wives.
[SPEAKER_01]: The late was his first wife and Helen Marr is one of one that came after and both of them have some fantastic experiences in how they learned of and became married to to Hebrew.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is such a good
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason I said maybe you were thinking of Helen Markimble is because her she's actually linked her experience at her biography is actually linked in this week's Compalmium material Is one of the of the several Individuals whose information is linked so
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would, maybe I should just get a little more context there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Velaite, when he received was told about plural marriage, it was like made him physically sick like for weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't tell the late what it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, this is all things that maybe we should go out and study on our own, but but after weeks of this, she couldn't get him to say anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: She finally went to the Lord said, help me know what I'm dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell teach me what the, what he has been taught.
[SPEAKER_01]: and that night she received her revelation and saw plural marriage and knew what it was and the next morning went and told Hebrew that she knows what it is and that she understands it and like her own revelation was not from some man telling her about this thing it was from God directly so I mean Helen Mar has a completely different experience but man that those experiences if we don't know those all we all we're doing is painting the
[SPEAKER_01]: This doctrine with our own lens, with our own perspective, and we miss a great opportunity to understand what the Lord was actually teaching the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, briefly, I think we can learn from God from this.
[SPEAKER_03]: like the the the doctor and the family is so incredibly glorious and also we talk about plural marriage sometimes God's going to ask us to do some really difficult things that is his nature and he will ask us and for all of us we're going to be asked to do hard things in our lives so as we relate to the doctor of family we're we're running long Matthew so maybe we can do this
[SPEAKER_03]: some of the joy, some of the doctrine, some of the glory that you perceive from celestial marriage and and the glorious that God has revealed as relates to marriage and family generally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when we set this up today was that we were talking about what we were going to do and what we were going to talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's some, again, this is kind of some pet things of mine that I just love that Doctor Lee is in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we just leave that principle, I loved what Brenna shared about men and women back then had their own challenges even within the law that they couldn't own property and they couldn't just different
[SPEAKER_01]: I did just a quick Google search today.
[SPEAKER_01]: The LDS population owners today, it's estimated that about 20% of us come from plural marriage relationships back in the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's maybe some evidence of the Lord raising up a righteous people unto himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as I think about celestial marriage, present Nelson was so good to teach us to think celestially.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it changed how I look at the scriptures and that I should be thinking beyond the veil and not just to get back and be judged, but what's next?
[SPEAKER_01]: How can I learn what's next?
[SPEAKER_01]: If we go back to section 131 to start, and this is kind of some stuff we just jumped over.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says in the celestial glory, there are three heavens or degrees.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we're not talking about celestial, terrestrial, and celestial.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about writing the celestial kingdom.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are three divisions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Only in the celestial kingdoms, exclusively talking about that, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in order to obtain the highest, so the highest degree of the slush kingdom, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood, meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He may obtain unto the other, but that is the end of the kingdom.
[SPEAKER_01]: of his kingdom.
[SPEAKER_01]: He cannot have an increase.
[SPEAKER_01]: That line is super important.
[SPEAKER_01]: He cannot have an increase.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if we jump back into section 132, we keep that concept in our minds.
[SPEAKER_01]: We you had shared with us verses 15, that if a man marry a wife not by his law, that that marriage is not in standing in the next life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what happens?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is true for those who choose not to have a celestial marriage?
[SPEAKER_01]: It says in verse 16, therefore when they are out of the world, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants to minister for those who are worthy of a far more in an exceeding and an eternal weight of glory.
[SPEAKER_01]: For these angels did not abide my law, therefore they cannot be enlarged.
[SPEAKER_01]: large.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's that increase in large, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something about marriage that is enlarging and increasing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we've already touched on the idea that a man and a woman working together become one and I am made more when I'm with my wife and we're working together.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have all feminine attributes eventually perfected.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has all masculine attributes eventually perfected.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we are magnified, we are glorified, and we have an increase in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that I think is important to recognize and point out that marriages that are not sealed into the Lord's way in the next life will not exist, but that those individuals may not
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me let me take us now into 19.
[SPEAKER_01]: You read the first half of verse 19 or maybe 3rd of verse 19 and being That we need to be married by the by someone with a proper power and authority and priesthood But then we get to the next sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says It shall be said of them being those that were married by the proper authority
[SPEAKER_01]: that you shall come forth in the first resurrection and if it be after the first resurrection in the next resurrection, and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights, and depths.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is temple language, you know, that this is in a ceiling in the temple, these phrases, this type of wording is used.
[SPEAKER_01]: That again is sealed on you as something that could come to you with your faithfulness, but is not yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says later down a little bit in section 19.
[SPEAKER_01]: It shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant has put upon them in time and through all eternity.
[SPEAKER_01]: And shall be a full force when they are out of this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, we're thinking celestial.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they shall pass by the angels and the gods which are set there to their exaltation and glory and all things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go through the temple and in parts of the temple we're taught about sentinels that stand to guard the way of where God lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: Angels like we just are reading here, to pass by the angels and the gods which are there to their exaltation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now listen to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: as have been sealed upon their heads which glory be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So not only do I have the ability to be enlarged by my spouse's perfection and my interaction and relationship with her,
[SPEAKER_01]: but our seed and the opportunities we have to have children in the next life and have those children have children in the, and that's why Abraham is spoken of here, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That Abraham was given the blessing of children beyond the sands of the sea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he had not that many kids on earth, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That was not an earthly promise,
[SPEAKER_01]: Verse 20, then shall they be gods because they have no end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue, then shall they be above all because all things are subject unto them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then shall they be gods because they have all power and the angels are subject unto them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think we'll go back to this abiding by the law, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Verse 21, barely, barely I say unto you, except ye abide my law, ye can't out of obtain this glory.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's such a wonderful eternal perspective we can gain if we understand the fullness of the plan, not just to the judgment, but what is beyond that?
[SPEAKER_01]: If I can obtain the blessings that God has promised me,
[SPEAKER_01]: I will never be above him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says in here that they will be above all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they're intending.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the Lord was intending even himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, my father will always be my father.
[SPEAKER_01]: And always be my God, and Christ will always be my eldest brother who suffered my atonement.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have his atonement and worked my part of that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: That will always be true eternally, but that I can have some capacity to become like they are is what's promised here.
[SPEAKER_01]: My increase in my enlargement does not reduce or remove theirs.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I have a child, my father did not become less.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, my father became grand.
[SPEAKER_01]: We call my father a grand father.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in a very similar way, if I have children in the next life, my Heavenly Father becomes more grant.
[SPEAKER_01]: His eternal perspective is that He is expanding and continually growing, not just because He already has everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: He already knows everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: What else would He be growing in, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Except for us and our posterity.
[SPEAKER_01]: and that's what brings him full glory and full grand fatherness, right, is that we have the ability to become as he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wants that for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the message here.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is why marriage is so important in, in, in, in celestial marriage is so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: without it, we cannot obtain that growth or that increases the way the Lord says it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just think there's some really wonderful doctrines in here that help us understand the planet salvation and help us look forward to our ceilings and our marriages and our children and their children and their children and their marriages.
[SPEAKER_01]: It without that understanding, we have much less to teach to our families about who they're to become.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for giving me some time with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, glorious doctrines.
[SPEAKER_01]: Add some thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts as we talked to you?
[SPEAKER_03]: I just as as you were speaking, I just was overwhelmed with gratitude to Father.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I I've been very blessed and married to family.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lord's been very generous to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is that like everything in my life is inseparably connected to Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything good in my life, my marriage, my children, all the joy that I experience in those relationships is conceptually connected to Him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as you are speaking, I was just thinking about how grateful I am that that is God's plan.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wants to give those things to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything that he has, like this is the plan of salvation, is for me to experience joy, and to have more joy, and to have more eternal increase.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is who our God is, and praise me to God for the incomparable gift of His Son, who has made it all possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this has been fantastic, again, there's so much more in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're skipping a lot of verses and a lot of things in section 132, especially in some direct conversation with Emma and some counsel being given to her comes here.
[SPEAKER_01]: shortly as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's where study.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's where study in context and knowing what we can from church history about that context.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think helps us understand that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll leave it here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this gives us a good, a good understanding of the principles we've talked about today.
[SPEAKER_01]: In closing,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to ask you a question that's different than any I've ever asked before.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are obviously a wonderful friend of mine and in preparation for these, you always do it in a different way, you always do a little bit unique way, you invited Brenna to have a conversation with you prior to our meeting today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell me as you work with young adults and you work maybe even with Brenna in that circumstance
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it that you see in them, that gives you hope, that gives you joy, that even in the hardest, and maybe even dark times of their lives as they're dealing with St. Stuggling through.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it that you see in these verses or in the section we've talked about that is for them that gives you hope that that is that might be for someone out there that's listening that doesn't have an Institute teacher like you to come and ask questions up.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you say?
[SPEAKER_03]: The first thing the pops in my mind is being at a temple ceiling.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the young adults
[SPEAKER_03]: For those listeners, this makes sense, but you probably don't recognize this readily.
[SPEAKER_03]: As Institute teachers, we get invited to temple ceilings a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: like we develop relationships with our students and sometimes we even introduce them to somebody that they eventually get sealed to in the temple.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we get invited to these a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is such a joyous occasion as an institute teacher.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because a lot of times we've seen these kids struggle.
[SPEAKER_03]: They've been in our office.
[SPEAKER_03]: on the line of maybe too much, but sometimes there's a young man in my office crying because weeping because he wants to be married.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then to later see that come to fruition.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the thought that comes to my mind is that God is a God of miracles.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there is always hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the glory, like for our young adults or anybody right now who's doubting that they ever can get married,
[SPEAKER_03]: I just say this, you think of the most glorious marriage relationship, the most glorious family circumstance that exists out there that you ever could imagine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you are true and faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ and to your covenants, that is yours, plus more.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is yours, plus eternity.
[SPEAKER_03]: That is God's promise.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's hard right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes in darkness, or if you're maybe a little bit older and it hasn't worked out yet, it can be hard to have that hope.
[SPEAKER_03]: but do not give up hope and finally I'll say this for the young adults we kind of joke in as isn't suit faculty but there is a lid for every pot like we see this because occasionally as faculty there'll be somebody and and we'll be like oh that just fits just perfectly together and for us and this microcosm it just this micro tiny institute that we have to see that happen again
[SPEAKER_03]: And then for God to say, there is a pot for everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but brother, I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's it's funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my Institute of Simon right now, I work with the Institute of Quires and and I have some presidency members of that choir and I get to kind of put kids together that I think are going to be good together, working together and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would, I, you know, I'm pretty good at identifying people that would get along and work together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've, we've had a couple of turthry marriages come from that group of leadership kids that, that all of a sudden have to work together and have to talk to each other, whereas they've been in choir for a couple of years before and didn't even notice each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think sometimes I would just add to your counsel and admonition that you have to open your mouth.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be vocal about your desires and actively engaged in the work to obtain the blessing that you're seeking after, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And live like you already have it.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But go after it if that's a desire of yours and be careful how you do it But and brother Stafford thing and I would just add to that for the for the young adults or for the older adults or for the married adults who right now are weeping
[SPEAKER_03]: Because that marriage relationship isn't what doesn't exist or it's not what you want it to be.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know the Lord Jesus Christ weeps with you and he's there with you and it can be hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he knows nobody else might understand.
[SPEAKER_03]: It might be that nobody else understands, but the Lord Jesus Christ understands.
[SPEAKER_01]: And your spouse, who's also not married right now, is aware and knows and understands how it feels.
[SPEAKER_01]: And someday you'll be able to talk together about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Brother Stafford, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been so wonderful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love these sections.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much in here and you've done a fantastic job of taking this through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then next time we have you on, we'll be the beginning of the Old Testament.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm excited to talk through that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's going to be fun stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: The start of the New Year is always exciting.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just a new book of scripture.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the Old Testament is so unfamiliar with many of the stories.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really engaging in fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: yeah I'll peel back the curtain just really quickly here we have actually already recorded that first episode that we're going to do and it's a wonderful conversation so so looking forward to having you back there and we'll see you soon.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sounds good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye everybody.