WEBVTT 00:00.031 --> 00:02.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Coming up on the Pre-Choice Podcast. 00:02.374 --> 00:04.857 [SPEAKER_01]: This piece of conditional logic goes like this. 00:05.357 --> 00:09.422 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's a dog, it's a mammal, but if it's a mammal, it's not necessarily a dog. 00:09.702 --> 00:16.550 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important to think about this from mental health, but really any subject because it helps you organize your categories. 00:17.031 --> 00:23.558 [SPEAKER_01]: So, basic example from the book might be, if they're a narcissist, they're selfish, they're self-centered, they're self-involved. 00:23.538 --> 00:26.802 [SPEAKER_01]: But if they're self-centered and self-evolved, that doesn't mean they're a narcissist. 00:27.283 --> 00:31.889 [SPEAKER_01]: It's especially important for understanding these diagnostic terms or these subclinical terms. 00:32.009 --> 00:48.010 [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of helps you out like break out of that black and white thinking for subjects that you're trying to tap into. 00:50.943 --> 01:07.821 [SPEAKER_02]: Ain't nobody safe 01:11.665 --> 01:19.997 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Preacher Boys podcast today on the show I am sitting down with returning Preacher Boys podcast guest, Joe Nucchi. 01:20.258 --> 01:28.049 [SPEAKER_00]: In addition to sporting a spectacular mustache, he's also a brilliant psychotherapist and the author of the equally brilliant book, Psychobabble. 01:28.430 --> 01:32.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Viral mental health, miss, and the truth to set you free. 01:32.135 --> 01:37.461 [SPEAKER_00]: If you spent any time online lately, you've probably noticed how much mental health content is out there. 01:37.781 --> 01:45.810 [SPEAKER_00]: TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, everyone's talking about therapy, trauma, narcissists, gaslighting, love bombing, the list goes on. 01:46.270 --> 02:00.606 [SPEAKER_00]: And while it's great that the stigma around mental health topics is starting to dissipate in modern times, there's also been a lot of new found confusion or mislabeling that is very troubling, particularly to today's guest. 02:00.586 --> 02:10.915 [SPEAKER_00]: He argues that too many of us are self-diagnosing that we're improperly deploying therapy speak and we're even coaching others to engage in harmful activities under the guys of self-care. 02:11.616 --> 02:19.463 [SPEAKER_00]: His book promises to dispel common mental healthness and replace him with no nonsense truths and accessible guidance for real healing. 02:19.623 --> 02:29.192 [SPEAKER_00]: If you enjoy any part of this, head to the link in the show notes or the pinned comment if you're watching on YouTube and grab a copy of Joe's book, PsychoBabble, you absolutely won't regret it. 02:29.172 --> 02:30.436 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's enough intro for me. 02:30.756 --> 02:34.166 [SPEAKER_00]: This episode is absolutely fantastic, and I don't want to take any more of your time. 02:34.326 --> 02:36.994 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's my conversation with my friend, Jo Nuchi. 02:37.375 --> 02:37.997 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get into it. 02:38.257 --> 02:40.464 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. 02:40.744 --> 02:43.572 [SPEAKER_00]: Jo thinks much for joining me again on the podcast. 02:44.094 --> 02:44.194 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 02:44.174 --> 02:49.264 [SPEAKER_01]: Eric, it's really good to see you and talk to you and know it's been a little while, but I'm really happy to be back. 02:49.364 --> 02:53.092 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I usually check before doing like follow-up interviews. 02:53.413 --> 02:55.016 [SPEAKER_00]: How long it's been, but I have no clue. 02:55.076 --> 02:56.920 [SPEAKER_00]: So it could have been nine months. 02:57.000 --> 02:58.262 [SPEAKER_00]: It could have been a year or two. 02:58.283 --> 02:59.485 [SPEAKER_00]: I have no clue. 02:59.505 --> 03:00.707 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a year or two. 03:00.727 --> 03:04.696 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been, I don't think quite two years, but almost. 03:05.036 --> 03:05.457 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 03:05.437 --> 03:05.918 [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha. 03:05.938 --> 03:07.681 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, a lot's happened since then. 03:07.701 --> 03:09.744 [SPEAKER_00]: Notably the book. 03:10.165 --> 03:14.332 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got a very precarious tower of books behind you. 03:16.315 --> 03:17.617 [SPEAKER_00]: You address early. 03:17.637 --> 03:20.762 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like the first few senses of the book. 03:20.742 --> 03:31.605 [SPEAKER_00]: You talk about like how much things have shifted over the past couple years where there was so much stigma talking about mental health mental illness, you know, conversations about even like going to therapy. 03:32.267 --> 03:36.396 [SPEAKER_00]: And now there's like this ubiquitous kind of dialogue where like everyone's talking about it. 03:36.596 --> 03:39.342 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the cool thing to talk about and. 03:39.322 --> 03:45.388 [SPEAKER_00]: This book to me is kind of you as a professional kind of putting your foot down in some areas and going like it's good. 03:45.408 --> 03:48.031 [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about this, but let's talk about it correctly. 03:48.051 --> 03:58.482 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you have any reticence going into this conversation and like doing anything to like potentially curb the conversation to slow people down from engaging in discussions about mental health? 03:58.542 --> 04:03.107 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think someone could look at your work or your book and go, well don't attack a good thing. 04:03.147 --> 04:03.428 [SPEAKER_00]: It's good. 04:03.448 --> 04:04.789 [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about these things. 04:04.769 --> 04:09.824 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I think that that retort is fucking bullshit, and I'm going to tell you why. 04:09.844 --> 04:19.572 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's bullshit because, you know, if it's the equivalent of saying to someone who, you know, wants to criticize America, it's like, well, you must not. 04:19.771 --> 04:23.915 [SPEAKER_01]: love America or maybe someone who's critical like of the church, right? 04:23.955 --> 04:44.918 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, you you must not believe in God, like you must not actually like care and it's just, it's just not good peace of criticism because I actually care really deeply about mental health, you know, not just from my old mental health journey and experience and not just like for you know, from working in an effort, it's really what I've dedicated a lot of my life to and I think in order to make 04:44.965 --> 05:06.028 [SPEAKER_01]: mental culture sustainable as in like this the sub culture people you now have that talk about mental health and mental description to work and into dating and into how we parent I think it's important we talk about it accurately or it's going to continue to evolve into psychobabble right in the 05:06.717 --> 05:14.465 [SPEAKER_01]: introduction to my book, I actually talk about how I borrow the the term from like the city of like the Tower of Babel. 05:15.506 --> 05:22.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the myth, the Tower of Babel, whether it's you know, in like the Hebrew Bible or there's other depictions of this myth in different religions all over the world. 05:23.275 --> 05:28.701 [SPEAKER_01]: The idea is that the human means can't speak the same language, so they can't finish building this structure. 05:29.501 --> 05:30.042 [SPEAKER_01]: And 05:31.405 --> 05:53.145 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that mental health culture because it is so new and so it is so freshly destigmatized, I do think that maybe I am leading the charge in some ways, maybe I am one of the earlier voices to say, hey, actually, I don't like how we're using this term, hey, actually, I don't like how this cultural talking point is going, but I just want people to remember that this is no different from every other subject we have. 05:53.165 --> 05:54.848 [SPEAKER_01]: There are diversity. 05:54.828 --> 06:00.578 [SPEAKER_01]: There are diverse views in medicine, in politics, in law, in fitness, in health. 06:01.139 --> 06:10.795 [SPEAKER_01]: In all of these other subjects, the difference is we talked about those subjects much more openly and have for a much longer time than we have been to law, so I think that I think that's... 06:10.775 --> 06:22.483 [SPEAKER_01]: what I've anticipated people having kind of a little bit of an adjustment period around, but what I like to remind people is I'm like, this is a good thing that we have diverse perspectives and we're talking about, because that means that the conversation isn't going to go away. 06:22.984 --> 06:25.831 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to be just like a passing fact. 06:25.911 --> 06:28.918 [SPEAKER_01]: It actually kind of ensures it's legitimacy in some ways. 06:28.898 --> 06:34.326 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to imagine you had like a couple really strong bones to pick with certain things. 06:34.406 --> 06:36.669 [SPEAKER_00]: Like things that you're like, this is the reason I want to write this book. 06:36.709 --> 06:47.464 [SPEAKER_00]: If nothing else makes it this, what was like one or two phrases in particular that really when you see them misused, you're like, okay, I've got something to say about this. 06:47.444 --> 07:12.051 [SPEAKER_01]: The one that's been top of mind lately, and I have started seeing somebody new who I'm who I care about very, very much, and so maybe there's some there's some personal motivation behind this one, even though I did finish the book long before I met them, is this idea of love bombing and this idea of that is proliferated off social media, and essentially the idea is that well, if you're moving fast, 07:12.200 --> 07:19.070 [SPEAKER_01]: in dating, in a relationship, that is unhealthy, that is unstable, the traditional definition of love-bombing. 07:19.090 --> 07:34.411 [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually an intentional and emotionally manipulative and abusive act, and the idea is, let's say, you and I start dating, I shower you with affection and praise and gifts and declarations of commitment, you become invested in attached, and that means I get to manipulate you easier. 07:34.832 --> 07:39.338 [SPEAKER_01]: At the very least, it means I learn things about you, that you would only 07:39.318 --> 07:52.787 [SPEAKER_01]: Trust to someone that you are very intimate with but that I do that with uh, there's like there's an agenda that I have I've been used that stuff later That's very very different from moving quickly 07:53.105 --> 08:00.945 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to say that all the people that are kind of spouting how enlightened they are, how self-actual as they are, it's like, oh, well, like, don't move too fast. 08:00.965 --> 08:03.713 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I'm sorry, like, you know, I'm a therapist. 08:03.813 --> 08:04.575 [SPEAKER_01]: I have lots of friends. 08:04.595 --> 08:05.297 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an extrovert. 08:05.377 --> 08:08.545 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, you know, talk to people about their dating lives and their relationships. 08:08.866 --> 08:09.628 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, 08:09.608 --> 08:11.050 [SPEAKER_01]: What about your fucking bullshit? 08:11.531 --> 08:17.819 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, oh, like you would counter an amazing cosmic connection with someone and you just take it super slow at a snail's pace. 08:18.139 --> 08:18.620 [SPEAKER_01]: No, you're not. 08:18.660 --> 08:22.125 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that doesn't mean that you should throw all caution to the wind. 08:22.145 --> 08:26.711 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you should, you know, believe that you're getting married to someone like after the first day. 08:26.731 --> 08:31.397 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not advocating for, you know, like, delusional thinking. 08:31.377 --> 08:31.778 [SPEAKER_01]: here. 08:32.258 --> 08:37.025 [SPEAKER_01]: But the truth of the matter is I don't know when therapists became the experts on dating. 08:37.125 --> 08:54.007 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you ask my friends, if my dating life was an exemplar case of dating choices, throughout my 20s, they would laugh at your face and they would be right to because I find the journey of love just as confusing and exciting as anybody else does. 08:54.188 --> 08:57.452 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not just because 08:57.432 --> 09:02.123 [SPEAKER_01]: The problem of human relationships and intimacy spans far beyond therapy. 09:02.163 --> 09:03.814 [SPEAKER_01]: And 09:03.997 --> 09:09.104 [SPEAKER_01]: furthermore, I've tried looking for literature on this. 09:10.026 --> 09:10.987 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not clear. 09:11.047 --> 09:16.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people get married very soon and they have very long, healthy, loving lasting relationships. 09:16.535 --> 09:20.901 [SPEAKER_01]: Other people really take their time and get divorced two years later. 09:20.941 --> 09:31.236 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the reasons why I think psychobabble is such a temptation for us to use when it comes to dating is dating is one of those things in life that we wish we had more control than we do. 09:31.216 --> 09:36.526 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, a lot of it is about timing and proximity and reciprocity. 09:36.786 --> 09:39.612 [SPEAKER_01]: And we can't control for those things. 09:39.672 --> 09:40.794 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no framework. 09:41.175 --> 09:43.419 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there is no hack. 09:43.860 --> 09:45.643 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of putting yourself out there. 09:46.084 --> 09:54.760 [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that I think is kind of annoying about love on me as well is I think it also kind of obscures a lot of really, 09:55.280 --> 09:59.244 [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of valuable insight into a why is this person moving fast? 10:00.145 --> 10:03.769 [SPEAKER_01]: Are they, you know, on the ADHD or on the autism spectrum? 10:03.789 --> 10:08.414 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this actually more hyper focus and hyper fixation, unless to them moving quickly? 10:08.974 --> 10:10.316 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it puppy love? 10:10.716 --> 10:13.359 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, are you going to tell the 14 year old that he's love bombing? 10:13.779 --> 10:14.600 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, his crush. 10:14.640 --> 10:17.804 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like their children, like let them be cute for crying out loud. 10:18.424 --> 10:19.245 [SPEAKER_01]: You know? 10:19.225 --> 10:29.542 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, are we really just so cynical in the age of dating apps that we can't believe that, you know, people meet and they actually hit it off even though that happens all the time, you know. 10:29.562 --> 10:40.120 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's that's one that's been top of mind recently because it's just it's just funny to me like like the posturing that I hear people say where I'm just kind of later like. 10:40.100 --> 10:48.449 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, oh, well, like, going slow is the only way, and it's like, no, going slow is a way that has advantages and disadvantages. 10:48.509 --> 10:56.097 [SPEAKER_01]: The advantage to going slow is you get to take time getting to know the person and seeing who they actually are, and if they're actually worth it. 10:57.558 --> 11:02.584 [SPEAKER_01]: The advantage of going fast is you can rush along that intimacy. 11:03.184 --> 11:03.925 [SPEAKER_01]: You can rush along the opposite. 11:03.945 --> 11:05.787 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also very exciting. 11:05.767 --> 11:08.330 [SPEAKER_01]: And intoxicating, and it feels very, very good. 11:08.350 --> 11:17.619 [SPEAKER_01]: The disadvantage, of course, is that you're not, you don't have necessarily spent the time with them to know who they really are, right? 11:17.639 --> 11:19.741 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also disadvantages to going slow. 11:19.761 --> 11:30.492 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you don't give the person the impression that you like them as much as you do, and then they feel like it's not a match, and so they move on and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. 11:30.552 --> 11:32.234 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that happens in dating all the time. 11:32.574 --> 11:34.356 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people test each other. 11:34.336 --> 11:45.830 [SPEAKER_01]: And they, you know, they're like, oh, well, I texted him and I don't want to double text because God forbid I'm forward, you know, God forbid I have a feeling and I demonstrate it, you know, to this person. 11:46.351 --> 11:47.252 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know very well. 11:47.372 --> 11:49.255 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's my rant on love bombing. 11:49.275 --> 11:57.926 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's, you know, it's good to have your eyes wide open, but I think it's it's important that we realize there is no blueprint for dating and finding a person. 11:57.986 --> 11:59.888 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's journey is just so different. 11:59.868 --> 12:23.412 [SPEAKER_00]: what's something now that you've you know the books been out about a month now you've done a lot of press you've probably gotten a lot of DMs from people that are reading it what are some things that are like really sacred to people that you may be kind of they feel like you trampled on or an idea that they thought they knew something about where people are pushing back on certain topics or miss that you cover in the course of the book is there anything like that? 12:23.392 --> 12:34.832 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've seen some reviews in my chapters where I talk about individual agency versus systemic change and how these topics might manifest in mental health. 12:34.932 --> 12:40.963 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not surprising that these topics have received some pushback because they are the most political in a certain sense. 12:41.143 --> 12:44.269 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't write them with a political agenda. 12:44.249 --> 12:53.578 [SPEAKER_01]: To be clear, but what I highlight in the book is that there's a big movement in my field to really prioritize systemic advocacy for the sake of mental health. 12:54.158 --> 13:05.189 [SPEAKER_01]: And all I say in the book is that you need to balance systemic advocacy with individual empowerment, and you need to balance having an internal locus of control. 13:05.249 --> 13:13.176 [SPEAKER_01]: This belief that I can change my circumstances with an external locus of control. 13:13.156 --> 13:13.997 [SPEAKER_01]: my influence. 13:14.858 --> 13:28.156 [SPEAKER_01]: I advocate for balance and the literature just show that I'm biasing towards, biasing yourself towards agency or belief in internal locus of control, not in a rigid way, but just slightly predicts positive mental health outcomes. 13:28.796 --> 13:34.624 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just interesting because a lot of some of the feedback in the reviews that I've seen is that it's like, oh, you know, 13:34.604 --> 13:55.077 [SPEAKER_01]: This dude spends too much time on the internet like this dude, you know, like these these are just kind of watered down social justice concepts This isn't actually the serious scholarship that's happening in academia and I just do anyone who's read the book or who might share that criticism I'm like have you been in academia lately like I'm not I actually make their argument 13:56.069 --> 13:58.391 [SPEAKER_01]: that they're trying to make better than they make. 13:58.732 --> 14:00.093 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, you know what I mean? 14:00.113 --> 14:07.701 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I actually have colleagues who sincerely believe that it is immoral to empower and individual in an unjust system. 14:08.002 --> 14:14.749 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, have talked to different practitioners psychiatrists who say, well, why would I prescribe someone medication? 14:14.809 --> 14:19.213 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would I numb them when what they really need to do is feel the depth of the emotion of the injustice and our system? 14:19.233 --> 14:21.356 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're the ones with the political agenda. 14:21.796 --> 14:25.620 [SPEAKER_01]: And I point out that that has limited clinical utility 14:25.600 --> 14:30.630 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I'm the political one or like, I'm the one that's like oversimplifying things, which I think is a total straw man. 14:30.690 --> 14:36.282 [SPEAKER_01]: It really isn't, it really isn't fair to the words that I wrote or the argument that I'm making. 14:36.322 --> 14:46.883 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that one I think has been, I did anticipate some, but that one's been kind of interesting, because I think a lot of the people who roll their eyes at it are honestly not practitioners, because if you are, 14:47.420 --> 14:50.584 [SPEAKER_01]: If you work in my field, you know exactly what I'm pointing to. 14:50.624 --> 14:56.430 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're just glad that someone that wasn't you set it, because you're probably very agreeable and didn't want to piss anybody off. 14:57.492 --> 15:01.276 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, part of my job is to, it's a generating gauge when it's a push the conversation. 15:01.296 --> 15:03.318 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was more than happy to write those chapters. 15:03.358 --> 15:06.482 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they're very interesting intellectually and, and ethically. 15:07.423 --> 15:09.305 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I thought that that one was kind of interesting. 15:09.385 --> 15:12.228 [SPEAKER_00]: This raises a point that like, I think about all the time. 15:12.268 --> 15:15.452 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I came from a very fundamentalist, 15:15.432 --> 15:23.626 [SPEAKER_00]: religious background where our ways the way, you know, we've got certain leaders that are like the leader, you know, and the buck stops with them. 15:23.666 --> 15:29.636 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like the person who kind of, if you don't know, they know, and they'll tell you, you know, so you can follow that way. 15:29.656 --> 15:32.240 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really interesting. 15:32.280 --> 15:37.609 [SPEAKER_00]: Now five years into doing the show talking people at all stages of leaving groups like that. 15:37.589 --> 15:44.475 [SPEAKER_00]: that I see people flock to influencers or figures that explain things to them and they take that as gospel. 15:45.196 --> 15:51.401 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think in this space that we're talking about when it comes to mental health, you know, there's people I know where they go. 15:51.441 --> 15:55.525 [SPEAKER_00]: Anything Renee Brown says is, you know, that's the gospel for me. 15:55.605 --> 15:56.686 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's what I follow. 15:56.706 --> 15:58.188 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where I'm going to post quotes from. 15:58.288 --> 16:07.596 [SPEAKER_00]: Or there's people that'll follow someone like yourself and go like, you know, okay, well, he's debunking all the things that XYZ says and he's kind of nailed it here. 16:07.576 --> 16:16.731 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I kept having this size as I was reading a book, there's a lot of people I respect in this space that I read a lot from or consume a lot from. 16:16.771 --> 16:21.158 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't have a background in higher education. 16:21.178 --> 16:26.827 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't have, I'm not somebody's dug into all of these topics at a level, you know, that's academic in any way. 16:27.027 --> 16:28.690 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just consuming it. 16:28.670 --> 16:34.936 [SPEAKER_00]: For someone who feels uncomfortable, you know, parsing through this and going like, okay, well, what is the truth here? 16:35.336 --> 16:38.179 [SPEAKER_00]: Or what is the thing that we should be looking at? 16:38.199 --> 16:39.860 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, yeah, that's probably accurate. 16:40.000 --> 16:45.465 [SPEAKER_00]: When we don't really have a way to gauge that based on our own education in these areas. 16:45.785 --> 16:52.892 [SPEAKER_00]: If that makes sense, it's like, because that's not for me all the time, or I'm like, I don't understand politics as much as this politician I'm talking to on the show. 16:53.072 --> 16:56.635 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, maybe I'm missing something huge here. 16:56.615 --> 16:59.660 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, how do you navigate that or encourage people to? 17:00.922 --> 17:13.781 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, some of the ways I help people navigate all the psychopathal, I think can be applied to other subjects, whether it's politics or fitness or health, and here are a few things to think about. 17:14.122 --> 17:20.091 [SPEAKER_01]: The first thing is to 17:20.071 --> 17:30.493 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, a basic example from my field is meditation 10, 20 years ago was considered hippy kind of quackery. 17:30.513 --> 17:36.426 [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's the first thing that your PCP or primary care physician is going to recommend to you. 17:36.406 --> 17:39.991 [SPEAKER_01]: for a mental health condition because there's so much evidence for it. 17:40.552 --> 17:43.156 [SPEAKER_01]: And so let's remember that like the things change over time. 17:43.236 --> 17:49.765 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that there are things that I've learned in grad school that, you know, 5-10 years for now may get deep bunked or whatever it is. 17:49.785 --> 17:53.611 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's the first thing to just have a healthy curiosity and a healthy skepticism. 17:53.711 --> 18:05.788 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think makes you less of an expert and it certainly is, if the expert you're talking to can't handle that kind of a question, then the question you're asking is actually, you know, 18:05.768 --> 18:25.600 [SPEAKER_01]: above their patty an average if you were like it's it's uh they're you're either they're they're they're not playing ball at your um at your level necessarily the second thing is this um thing I learned when I was studying for the LSAT I didn't end up going to law school but I did I did study for and take the LSAT and it's this piece of conditional logic that goes like this 18:26.339 --> 18:27.680 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's a dog, it's a mammal. 18:28.181 --> 18:30.483 [SPEAKER_01]: But if it's a mammal, it's not necessarily a dog. 18:31.224 --> 18:38.971 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important to think about this for mental health, but really any subject, because it helps you organize your categories. 18:40.233 --> 18:46.639 [SPEAKER_01]: So a basic example from the book might be, if they're a narcissist, they're selfish. 18:47.239 --> 18:48.681 [SPEAKER_01]: They're self-centered, they're self-involved. 18:49.241 --> 18:53.005 [SPEAKER_01]: But if they're self-centered and self-evolved, that doesn't mean they're a narcissist, 18:53.153 --> 19:03.509 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, because if it's a dog, it's a mammal, but if it's a mammal, that doesn't mean it's a dog, because it could be a cat or a pig or whatever, right? 19:04.390 --> 19:16.208 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's the other thing that I know really helps me, particularly on social media and the internet, automatically tap in like nuances around things. 19:16.306 --> 19:30.872 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's especially important for understanding these diagnostic terms or the subclinical terms, because what a lot of people get confused by is they think that, oh, I have sensory regulation issues, I must be on the spectrum. 19:30.987 --> 19:50.413 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, no, if you have autism, you likely have sensory regulation issues, you really overstimulated very easily, but just because you have a system or a body that's more sensitive in that way, but you don't have any other share traits with the autism spectrum like cluster. 19:50.393 --> 19:55.017 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I'm not totally sure neurodivergency is an appropriate label for you. 19:55.177 --> 20:02.664 [SPEAKER_01]: It might be depending on like what else is going on and like you can debate how these things are more dimensional and they're not so black and white and I agree all of them. 20:02.784 --> 20:04.165 [SPEAKER_01]: There's dimensionality and all of them. 20:04.605 --> 20:09.169 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that that's another thing that I would I would offer that people think about. 20:09.229 --> 20:20.299 [SPEAKER_01]: So like for for for a political example let's say, um, um, 20:21.730 --> 20:24.535 [SPEAKER_01]: Democrat, you are 20:27.164 --> 20:29.827 [SPEAKER_01]: likely more likely like pro choice, right? 20:30.067 --> 20:33.251 [SPEAKER_01]: But does it necessarily go the other way, right? 20:33.711 --> 20:37.876 [SPEAKER_01]: Are there other people voting differently that actually on this issue, right? 20:38.496 --> 20:45.804 [SPEAKER_01]: They're actually like not as rigid and so it kind of helps you like break out of that black and white thinking for subjects that you're trying to tap into. 20:45.944 --> 20:52.952 [SPEAKER_00]: You give a good example in your book when it comes to ADHD, you know, where it's, you know, oh, I'm I struggle with staying focused. 20:52.932 --> 20:57.237 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that doesn't necessarily mean you've got ADHD. 20:57.697 --> 21:03.724 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and you give the example of Tolstoy writing Warren piece, like do you think he sat and was laser-focused the entire time? 21:03.844 --> 21:05.686 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, or was there exactly? 21:06.366 --> 21:10.771 [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I hope not because how do you ever achieve something like that if you can't do the same? 21:12.053 --> 21:15.456 [SPEAKER_00]: But it is really good analogy. 21:15.496 --> 21:18.079 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good way to think about it. 21:18.059 --> 21:33.636 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think there is a draw to these labels, especially so in the space I'm in, I'm sure you can imagine when I'm often talking about abusive leadership or I'm talking about sexual abuse within religious contexts, things like that. 21:34.757 --> 21:47.070 [SPEAKER_00]: The phrase is just flow like, you know, their narcissistic or he's a psychopath or he's a sociopath or, you know, a long barrage of terms and 21:47.050 --> 21:53.919 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also toward victims as well, there's a huge amount of things that are put on onto victims as well, label-wise. 21:55.161 --> 21:58.886 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think we're drawn to the labels just because it makes it simpler to communicate? 21:59.867 --> 22:04.694 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think social media is to blame because it's easier for people to kind of naturally get engagement? 22:05.134 --> 22:08.839 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if they're non-influtures, people know certain things, we're going to rise out of certain people. 22:09.761 --> 22:11.623 [SPEAKER_00]: Or do you think it's just us? 22:11.603 --> 22:11.925 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 22:11.965 --> 22:12.932 [SPEAKER_00]: We're smarter than we are. 22:13.032 --> 22:17.682 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're, we're, we're to see most of this flowing from and coming from. 22:17.948 --> 22:20.231 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think a lot of it is social media based. 22:20.511 --> 22:32.187 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you look at the stats around how much attention people are paying to their phones and to social media specifically, it's concerning. 22:32.207 --> 22:35.731 [SPEAKER_01]: And screen time is just like a whole other topic that we could dive into. 22:35.791 --> 22:39.416 [SPEAKER_01]: But the point is that that's where our attention is. 22:39.576 --> 22:41.299 [SPEAKER_01]: We're in the attention economy. 22:41.859 --> 22:45.424 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's competing for each other's attention. 22:46.113 --> 22:53.548 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you're not on it, even if you're not on social media, enough people are where it's having an impact on culture. 22:53.808 --> 23:00.882 [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, narcissism, Dr. Romani is a YouTuber, very prolific. 23:01.722 --> 23:05.288 [SPEAKER_01]: writes a lot about narcissism, gaslighting, different kinds of abuse. 23:05.428 --> 23:08.914 [SPEAKER_01]: She starts making videos about this in, I think, 2018. 23:08.934 --> 23:16.125 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say, in 2022, gaslight is Mary and Webster Dictionary's Word of the Year. 23:17.147 --> 23:24.439 [SPEAKER_01]: And now, you know, throughout 2023, 4 and 5, gaslighting in narcissism, or terms I heard. 23:24.419 --> 23:40.065 [SPEAKER_01]: Jokes comedians would tell and, you know, in opinion pieces in the way we discuss political leaders and in casual conversations at dinner parties on the podcast circuit and all of a sudden we're just saturated in it. 23:40.045 --> 24:00.582 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I like to use that as an example because people can say, like, oh, like social media, like influencing, like, you know, if these words in terms that go viral, I mean, they represent millions of dollars and really, like, think, like, the genius of a lot of the people that have made a really big brands and made them successful because they are, they are influencing culture. 24:00.602 --> 24:02.105 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why they're called influencers, right? 24:02.586 --> 24:03.167 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 24:03.839 --> 24:08.672 [SPEAKER_01]: just because it is normative or even like popular to do that thing, I don't think it's always helpful. 24:09.114 --> 24:15.351 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the reasons why it's not helpful and one of the things I talk about in the book is that we already had words. 24:15.449 --> 24:40.056 [SPEAKER_01]: point, we already, like you could already call your acts selfish and mature, a jerk, you know, grandiose, superior, all of these things that I actually think are more helpful indescripted than the term narcissist, because if there was ever a time period where narcissist was really descriptive in everyone knew what it meant, that time was long over. 24:40.036 --> 24:42.239 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know what else I think it is? 24:42.259 --> 24:43.020 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about this? 24:43.220 --> 24:45.964 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that a lot of times people gravitate towards the psychopathal. 24:46.004 --> 24:49.469 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's the ubiquity of the terms, right? 24:49.549 --> 24:52.193 [SPEAKER_01]: There's the appeal to authority that the terms carry. 24:52.213 --> 24:53.996 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, this is like the psychological term. 24:54.016 --> 24:57.701 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I was going to mention for the girlfriend saying, like, you're narcissists. 24:57.761 --> 25:01.326 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a position of like, like, this is right. 25:01.346 --> 25:04.330 [SPEAKER_00]: This is way more serious than just being a bad brother. 25:04.350 --> 25:04.470 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 25:05.732 --> 25:06.313 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. 25:06.753 --> 25:07.174 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, 25:08.183 --> 25:19.628 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's what I've noticed with people who use these terms, it's often coming from a place of like, I really want my experience to be heard and known and validated. 25:19.895 --> 25:35.501 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that when you elevate your selfish exploit-front to the level of narcissist, it does invite that sympathy in, and it does invite that attention, and that kind of difference, like you and your experience. 25:35.521 --> 25:36.983 [SPEAKER_01]: But the issue is twofold. 25:37.024 --> 25:42.713 [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, if they're not a narcissist, I think that discounts to the very, 25:42.693 --> 25:52.485 [SPEAKER_01]: real trauma and abuse that people who are in a relationship with someone with someone who's very narcissistic has to go through. 25:52.825 --> 25:58.852 [SPEAKER_01]: But, too, it's also at this point, it's watered it down to where, like, now when somebody says it, it kind of gets met with an eye roll. 25:59.473 --> 26:11.147 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and so paradoxically, people aren't actually getting what they want versus I actually think that today's we're speaking, it is much more accurate and much more effective at getting the validation 26:11.313 --> 26:17.745 [SPEAKER_01]: so many of us need and want and crave and deserve to say it's like get my axe was like really selfish and it was hard on me. 26:18.704 --> 26:22.908 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it just it rings so much truer versus this like buzzword. 26:22.968 --> 26:30.154 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, my ex was a narcissist because as soon as you hear it, because it's you hear it so often, there's a little bit of suspicion in there. 26:30.294 --> 26:38.662 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, well, were they, you know, and that's really not fair to the people who, like I said, who went through it, but it's also not giving people what I think they want. 26:38.702 --> 26:48.070 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't know for your community people talking about maybe different, like, um, religious leaders or like experiences of like family members or something. 26:48.758 --> 27:10.087 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a significant transition, like let's say like leave a religion, and you're like the pastor or your father or mother who revered is like your story deserves attention like your pain is worthy of validation and there didn't necessarily need to be a mental health component. 27:10.147 --> 27:11.509 [SPEAKER_01]: Now there could be 27:11.489 --> 27:11.770 [SPEAKER_01]: Right? 27:11.810 --> 27:16.979 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no rule that says that, like, you know, this person in power can't be an narcissist. 27:17.059 --> 27:19.564 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, they often are, you know what I mean? 27:19.584 --> 27:24.873 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's, there's an important nuance there, but I think that that's, that's, that's, to me, that's real emotional literacy. 27:24.893 --> 27:26.697 [SPEAKER_01]: That's real mental health literacy. 27:26.837 --> 27:29.582 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not this kind of fake branded, like, 27:29.562 --> 27:31.185 [SPEAKER_00]: Instagram, cotton candy. 27:31.786 --> 27:33.508 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go back to cotton candy in two seconds. 27:33.568 --> 27:38.116 [SPEAKER_00]: But I notice it in my realm with the word cult. 27:38.336 --> 27:49.714 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's this label where once you say it, it is that kind of thought terminating cliche where it's like, once I drop that, I've dropped the mic in the conversation, like everything that you say is wrong. 27:49.694 --> 27:53.365 [SPEAKER_00]: everything that you're doing is wrong, like, and I escaped you. 27:53.385 --> 27:57.737 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would certainly describe houses for a term. 27:57.757 --> 28:04.918 [SPEAKER_00]: I would describe my background as ColT, but I find myself more often than not. 28:04.898 --> 28:11.814 [SPEAKER_00]: using the labels like high control religious group, because I think it's much more specific in terms of what it was doing. 28:12.195 --> 28:18.911 [SPEAKER_00]: You could still pick a part in that, but I think it, you know, a cult by definition really describes most religions. 28:18.971 --> 28:22.700 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like a group of people devoted to one person or idea. 28:23.021 --> 28:23.582 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, 28:23.562 --> 28:39.850 [SPEAKER_00]: okay that's that's a lot of things um we have kind of the colloquial term which is you know means a lot of things to a lot of other people but for me it's like high control religious group i i feel a lot more comfortable saying i think it's more specific as to what they were actually doing uh but some people 28:39.830 --> 29:08.453 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people almost treat it like a a purity test of like if someone's not willing to call blanket the denomination we were in a cult like they won't listen to them like they want you to use that label to go like that's what it was and you know catch me on the right day and I'll say it's a cult and catch me on another day and I'll all lead in a different direction but it's I noticed that a lot too with that labeling it's like it's like we can kind of share 29:08.652 --> 29:09.133 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 29:09.234 --> 29:11.842 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, it's tricky, you know, I am you familiar with them. 29:12.123 --> 29:13.086 [SPEAKER_01]: What's that second call of this name? 29:13.306 --> 29:14.269 [SPEAKER_01]: Steven Hassan. 29:14.510 --> 29:14.771 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 29:14.891 --> 29:15.172 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 29:15.192 --> 29:15.954 [SPEAKER_00]: I was at him on the show. 29:16.055 --> 29:16.857 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 29:17.174 --> 29:24.664 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, so I love his distinction of, you know, a benign cult versus a belignant cult, like Apple has a benign cult, it's like we're all. 29:24.764 --> 29:28.008 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's like the root of the word culture, you know what I mean? 29:28.048 --> 29:35.918 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, I get, like, on one hand, maybe, it's like, we'll just like, use the term because you understand the dimensionality of the term. 29:35.938 --> 29:41.966 [SPEAKER_01]: But then there's that, you run into that problem, where it's like, but is the person you're talking to going to understand it with that nuance? 29:42.086 --> 29:45.190 [SPEAKER_01]: Or they just gonna think that you're doing the big old rubber stamp of, 29:45.170 --> 29:47.462 [SPEAKER_01]: Cult on it and is that really accurate? 29:47.984 --> 29:52.547 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that one of my problems with with all the psycho babbles that I 29:53.135 --> 30:01.563 [SPEAKER_01]: I am cautious and cognizant of us flattening our psychological reality into like five different terms. 30:02.224 --> 30:03.706 [SPEAKER_01]: If they're bad, they're narcissists. 30:03.726 --> 30:09.952 [SPEAKER_01]: If it felt that, it was a trauma, you know, or a trigger, if it's fast, it's love-bombing. 30:09.972 --> 30:12.995 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's like all of, like, we're just kind of like using these words. 30:13.015 --> 30:23.125 [SPEAKER_01]: There's some literature, like some scientific literature to show that the more granular you are with your emotions, particularly your negative experiences, the more resilient you are. 30:23.105 --> 30:28.036 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting that that's been validated by the literature, but I also think that this is common sense. 30:28.076 --> 30:42.548 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, one of the healing things of talking about your problems out loud, whether it's like with a therapist or with a pastor or with a friend or loved one, is it's like, when you actually can name it with a certain amount of specificity, that breaks the spell. 30:42.528 --> 31:11.792 [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I think that when people cling onto these umbrella terms it's kind of like they're just they're just trading one spell for the other it's like yes, they left the high control religion, but now they're you know worshiping people on on social media kind of like you were talking about and it's I'm not totally sure that that's them that that's what they were going for. 31:12.835 --> 31:24.659 [SPEAKER_00]: harder, but I think more satisfying when you can look at the actions of someone in your life say a parent, you know, and there's decisions my parents made, you know, that, obviously, given my background, I go, well, I wish you wouldn't have done that. 31:25.100 --> 31:29.509 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're probably be, uh, probably some differences in my life if we hadn't done that. 31:30.150 --> 31:31.232 [SPEAKER_00]: But I also know, 31:31.955 --> 31:34.579 [SPEAKER_00]: they believed their religious beliefs to be true. 31:34.619 --> 31:43.732 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they were expressing love in what they were doing, even if the people that they were submitting our family to, you know, had ulterior motive. 31:43.752 --> 31:49.120 [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's layers to it that are really interesting to pick apart, you know, even with, 31:49.100 --> 31:52.284 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was easier for me to spot it and leave than it was for them. 31:52.304 --> 31:55.828 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a delay there, but then I go, well, they were in it for 20 more years. 31:55.928 --> 31:59.453 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like there's a lot of pieces there that you can start digging into. 31:59.473 --> 32:15.192 [SPEAKER_00]: I said I get back to the cotton candy thing and these kind of influencers that that uses words to build an audience and really kind of, I don't know how to phrase it in a way that doesn't sound worse than I want it to, but 32:15.830 --> 32:17.414 [SPEAKER_00]: They build around these certain topics. 32:17.755 --> 32:24.051 [SPEAKER_00]: They talk a lot about things that garnered people's interest, people love it because it affirms it. 32:24.071 --> 32:31.189 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, I thought my boyfriend was this way, or I thought my girlfriend was this way, or I thought my religious background was this way. 32:31.169 --> 32:32.350 [SPEAKER_00]: two sides of this one. 32:32.390 --> 32:39.779 [SPEAKER_00]: How much did you go back and forth between specifically naming certain individuals in your book that kind of fall into this realm? 32:39.839 --> 32:43.103 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you just mentioned Dr. Romani talking about narcissism. 32:44.084 --> 32:46.947 [SPEAKER_00]: Were you reticent to kind of call out some specific names? 32:47.648 --> 32:57.379 [SPEAKER_00]: And then do you think that for all these individuals, do you think it's just irresponsible to the way that 32:57.646 --> 33:23.080 [SPEAKER_01]: they fully believe like this is what it is and they just have a different opinion than yourself like how do you balance that out in terms of like who gets the name drop or not you know I think in terms of the name drop every professional assuming that they're alive that was named to my book like has been invited onto my podcast but doesn't mean I've heard back from all of them that doesn't mean all of them have accepted the invitation I 33:27.025 --> 33:43.296 [SPEAKER_01]: I am known maybe kind of lead on the internet as someone who isn't afraid to say what they think and to be honest and authentic and that is true and I'm a big boy I can I can understand if I've heard someone's feelings but I think it is absolutely 33:43.276 --> 33:54.191 [SPEAKER_01]: unfair, and I'm not saying that you were implying this, but I think that the idea that I am mean or disrespectful to people, I think is absolutely unfounded because I have never attacked anybody personally. 33:54.452 --> 33:55.814 [SPEAKER_01]: I have talked about their ideas. 33:55.874 --> 33:57.176 [SPEAKER_01]: I've talked about the words that they've said. 33:57.216 --> 34:06.769 [SPEAKER_01]: I've talked about the potential consequences of what they put out there, but I assume 34:08.285 --> 34:16.809 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important to name these different people because I think that this is the, well, this is the culture we live in, right? 34:16.829 --> 34:20.640 [SPEAKER_01]: We live in a creator economy and an influencer culture. 34:21.362 --> 34:23.408 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important to, 34:25.447 --> 34:51.454 [SPEAKER_01]: scrutinize those different ideas and to think about, you know, not just because it's interesting, you know, you were saying to like, you know, get into the layers of something that's interesting and it certainly is interesting, but it's also for me, it's truth telling, you know, because if the story about, you know, if you're raised up in a religious cults, if you don't mind me using 34:51.856 --> 34:55.922 [SPEAKER_01]: My parents joined a cult, and it messed me up. 34:55.942 --> 35:02.032 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like, okay, that is what articulation of it, but the nuances aren't just interesting. 35:02.052 --> 35:08.642 [SPEAKER_01]: They actually matter, because it was like, my parents thought that they were doing what was best and they were like saving my soul. 35:08.962 --> 35:15.713 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's all these, all these other things that actually think really matter in terms of understanding the experience. 35:15.773 --> 35:17.155 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, 35:17.287 --> 35:24.217 [SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to, you're like, who to name, I also think also from a pure, just like media strategy perspective. 35:24.317 --> 35:25.619 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you're welcome. 35:26.200 --> 35:28.603 [SPEAKER_01]: I like named you in this book with Harper Collins. 35:28.643 --> 35:29.545 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know what I mean? 35:29.565 --> 35:36.595 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would even if I'm even if I'm critical, I'm also legitimizing your view as something worth talking about. 35:36.675 --> 35:36.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 35:37.236 --> 35:38.357 [SPEAKER_01]: And criticism. 35:38.377 --> 35:46.669 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, hopefully the one to any of those that are listening that I haven't talked to or haven't 35:46.649 --> 36:09.906 [SPEAKER_01]: podcast like please come on number one like I'm not like attached like anything I've I've written like I'm willing to have my mind changed but what I'm often seen and what my experience has been is the more I put myself out there and the more I poke at some of these platitudes and some of these memes that we're seeing is that people don't actually want to engage and it's I think it's because they know that I'm pointing to a real nuance. 36:10.460 --> 36:32.219 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, well, that's just stuff that I was alluding to earlier kind of like grosses me out is like this, if you question, um, you know, I know I mentioned something one time about somebody and and it's I mean, it's up to all the time, I'll just mention it's my I didn't really care for that and you can almost see the person you're talking to kind of shut down where it's like, well, I mean, why would you ever problem with them? 36:32.259 --> 36:38.745 [SPEAKER_00]: And how it's like, well, no, it's just this one idea or the way they articulate it, you know, it just doesn't mesh. 36:38.725 --> 36:48.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, with what I think the case is, but I know it also gives an opportunity to have like further discussion. 36:49.020 --> 37:01.558 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the first, the first way that I found out you had the book was one of your reels from psychobabble that was you just taking books and rating them, like, and it was literally like modular mental health books. 37:02.139 --> 37:08.108 [SPEAKER_00]: And I saw a lot of names of people that are like maybe guests on 37:08.088 --> 37:15.420 [SPEAKER_00]: I just remember watching, I was like, I immediately was interested in like, okay, why, why this number for this person and like, why do you know more? 37:15.460 --> 37:29.843 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was something where I was like, man, I hope that there's a response to this, where I can see like the other perspective, but yeah, I certainly don't think you come across as meaning in your content or I think you come across like, 37:30.127 --> 37:33.831 [SPEAKER_00]: very direct at times, but like I think it's in a way that's good. 37:34.031 --> 37:37.835 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's like in a way that's like weird or bashy, you know. 37:38.035 --> 37:59.357 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but well, Scott Barry Kaufman on his podcast, he host the psychology podcast and he said because he he has seen that video to any he was saying that he's he's been he's like, oh, you're like, you're like the Simon Cowell of mental health and there's something kind of like 37:59.337 --> 38:00.579 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm flattered. 38:00.599 --> 38:05.666 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that, you know, I think that Simon Kyle is a force to be reckoned with, and I think he's awesome. 38:05.686 --> 38:12.315 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, there's, I mean, when he's like on the judges, like, podium, there's like a bit of a performance, like what he's doing, right? 38:12.656 --> 38:26.695 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've seen him get interviewed and he says, you know, I'm going to tell people what I think, and I think that if I like it, other people will like it, and that's kind of how he is a, I don't know what he even technically is like a producer. 38:26.995 --> 38:36.432 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's, uh, I think that one of the things that therapy has taught me, like being a therapist specifically. 38:36.985 --> 38:38.528 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it honesty is curative? 38:39.891 --> 38:57.407 [SPEAKER_01]: No brutal honesty, what's like, well, I'm just gonna say it how it is and like, you know, fuck it, or like, whenever like that's not, that's not honesty, that's just a disclosure that you don't have the skills to say it in a way where people will like hear it, I think. 38:57.387 --> 39:08.080 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think to be honest and to pair that with a sense of trust or kindness or warmth or whatever it might be, that is curative, that is always a conversation worth having. 39:08.141 --> 39:17.252 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, if just because we've been using her as the example, you know, if if Dr. Romani, 39:17.232 --> 39:28.430 [SPEAKER_01]: comes on my podcast and she kind of convinces me that oh well maybe actually like one in six people are narcissists like maybe we actually are in this like epidemic it's like I will like I'm not there's not a lot of ego in it. 39:28.811 --> 39:29.251 [SPEAKER_00]: Great. 39:29.372 --> 39:30.614 [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't listen right now. 39:30.894 --> 39:31.695 [SPEAKER_00]: Come on on. 39:31.715 --> 39:32.236 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh amazing. 39:32.456 --> 39:32.737 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god. 39:32.757 --> 39:33.418 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. 39:33.398 --> 39:36.745 [SPEAKER_01]: But for me it's like what I write about in the book is it's just like one in sex. 39:36.785 --> 39:38.448 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like this is a made up number. 39:38.668 --> 39:38.889 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 39:39.771 --> 39:46.163 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's and and so it's just and I think it's okay to have an honest conversation about that. 39:46.284 --> 39:48.488 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's going to 39:49.717 --> 40:01.215 [SPEAKER_01]: have ever told you, I don't know how much I have to talk about it, but my mission statement for my content is to empower people with knowledge so they have more agency in their lives. 40:03.057 --> 40:03.478 [SPEAKER_01]: That's it. 40:03.959 --> 40:09.928 [SPEAKER_01]: What you do with the knowledge, what you do with your agency, I really, it's not just really not like up to me. 40:09.948 --> 40:14.475 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay, because I don't want it to be up to me. 40:14.455 --> 40:21.325 [SPEAKER_01]: But the, I think that is, you know, that's what I strive for when I'm talking about these things. 40:21.365 --> 40:23.869 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's super important because people look at this field. 40:23.889 --> 40:28.716 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there's a, as a salvation as an answer to a lot of life's problems. 40:29.978 --> 40:38.651 [SPEAKER_01]: And I personally have a problem with it when, when things are untrue or oversimplified to the point where people can misuse the insight. 40:39.032 --> 40:43.939 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I have some personal experience questions to ask you in a second, but I'm curious since you brought that up. 40:43.919 --> 40:56.372 [SPEAKER_00]: two, two sizes, as you said, at the beginning of the conversation, the human experience spans far beyond therapy, and then you just now mentioned, you know, stripping things down to like four or five things that sum up all of our experiences, you know. 40:58.194 --> 41:02.818 [SPEAKER_00]: Some critics of say like the DSM5 would say that's exactly what it does. 41:03.019 --> 41:09.285 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it takes everything, it gives it a label, and it 41:09.265 --> 41:10.948 [SPEAKER_00]: you're this, you're this, you're this. 41:11.529 --> 41:26.535 [SPEAKER_00]: I think if Dr. Jessica Taylor, she talks about the DSM5 all the time and very aggressively, so you know, doesn't, doesn't care for it, things that kind of belittles people's experiences, particularly women. 41:27.417 --> 41:29.400 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious for people that are like, 41:29.380 --> 41:38.823 [SPEAKER_00]: seeing that kind of back and forth happening within this community of like experts, where they're going, you know, even diagnosis isn't helpful. 41:39.063 --> 41:41.128 [SPEAKER_00]: Even giving labels to this at all is not helpful. 41:41.188 --> 41:42.812 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what's your response to that? 41:42.832 --> 41:46.461 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what do you what's your take on that kind of conversation that's happening right now? 41:46.441 --> 41:57.024 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, for one thing, I think it's super important that a public it's included in this conversation, and they see that there are fierce differences of opinions amongst mental health professionals. 41:57.084 --> 42:03.859 [SPEAKER_01]: Because again, I think that that knowledge is going to empower you to have agency and your mental health journey in treatment. 42:03.839 --> 42:23.822 [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of my personal philosophy, unlike diagnosis in the DSM, I don't often diagnose in my practice, I don't accept insurance, so that's part of it, but B, I just, I don't necessarily feel the need to unless I think it's clinically and ethically necessary. 42:23.802 --> 42:31.709 [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of successful mental health treatment, the point of the diagnosis, in my opinion, is to inform a treatment plan. 42:32.270 --> 42:36.214 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, the Dr. Jessica Taylor's of the world, I understand their criticisms. 42:36.354 --> 42:48.145 [SPEAKER_01]: I am by no means a rigid practitioner who just kind of operates from workbooks and studies in the DSM and is very, you know, like, tactical about everything that he does. 42:48.265 --> 42:51.548 [SPEAKER_01]: If anything, I'm the opposite, but what I think that people, 42:54.025 --> 43:10.423 [SPEAKER_01]: in their kind of like feverish excitement to criticize the DSM, what I sometimes think that they forget is that it's well, if all these categories are just made up and all of the science that supports our fields is therefore invalidated, then what are you doing? 43:10.443 --> 43:11.744 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not a healthcare provider. 43:13.266 --> 43:14.687 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's for sure. 43:15.308 --> 43:17.710 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, like, where does the legitimacy come from? 43:17.770 --> 43:21.214 [SPEAKER_01]: And the truth of the matter is that, you know, there are, 43:21.835 --> 43:31.775 [SPEAKER_01]: There are really great evidence-based ways to treat OCD, to treat ADHD, to treat anxiety. 43:32.397 --> 43:39.912 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is true that the people in these studies in the evidence met very stringent criteria 43:39.892 --> 43:48.244 [SPEAKER_01]: and most of the people who come into the office to the therapy office don't necessarily meet that really rigid criteria. 43:48.924 --> 44:00.921 [SPEAKER_01]: They're much of the humanist much more complicated and messy, but the same thing is true of being an MD, the same thing is true of being a lawyer, 44:01.070 --> 44:23.557 [SPEAKER_01]: you know like like the case law and the studies and the evidence and the science says one thing but then applying it right that's what makes these things a craft you know it takes knowledge within it takes the application and so if if if the doctor Jessica Taylor's of the world can give excellent therapy and they're getting excellent outcomes by saying fuck it to the DSM I think that's great. 44:24.358 --> 44:29.524 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there is some value there and one of the 44:30.584 --> 44:38.196 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the biggest pieces of value for me, it's like if you take something like, um, treating borderline personality disorder with the DBT. 44:38.917 --> 44:40.860 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we used to think that this wasn't treatable. 44:41.561 --> 44:44.626 [SPEAKER_01]: And Marta Lenin came along and she was like, you know what? 44:44.706 --> 44:46.690 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually going to pioneer this whole new therapy. 44:46.730 --> 44:51.577 [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's not just a therapy for DBT, but it helps us with eating disorders. 44:51.898 --> 44:54.482 [SPEAKER_01]: It helps us with all sorts. 44:54.462 --> 44:55.984 [SPEAKER_01]: of different clinical concerns. 44:56.684 --> 45:03.151 [SPEAKER_01]: And my bias against people that are, that RDSM basures is that they like to have their cake and they like to eat it, too. 45:03.551 --> 45:05.753 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're like, I'm a healthcare professional. 45:05.893 --> 45:07.595 [SPEAKER_01]: It's as important as physical health. 45:08.136 --> 45:16.184 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but the book that we base all of our studies on is completely invalid and illegitimate and it's culturally problematic and it's sexist. 45:16.244 --> 45:19.407 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is all those things like for sure, but it's just that you can't, 45:19.387 --> 45:38.644 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't throw the baby out, you know, with the bath water, you I think you have to be able to, you know, think in more than two dimensions and, you know, help your patient accomplish their treatment goals is best you can just a little bit of Simon cow came out and that last but a year response just to just to hear the Simon cow good great. 45:38.624 --> 45:39.827 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been to it, I'm leaning in. 45:40.428 --> 45:43.575 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, I do want to, I do want to ask this. 45:43.595 --> 45:47.103 [SPEAKER_00]: This is something that I, I was just talking to some about recently. 45:47.123 --> 45:52.695 [SPEAKER_00]: So this, this leads someone into personal experience from my asking for food therapy or to completely figure the situation out. 45:53.296 --> 45:55.401 [SPEAKER_00]: But I, I was communicating. 45:55.381 --> 46:15.685 [SPEAKER_00]: with somebody, I said, one of the biggest frustrations I have after five years of doing interviews is that I feel like they're in just living life, you know, like every year that I live life, I learn more things and just about myself for about the world around me and then I'm talking to experts and, you know, authors and people who share their experiences. 46:16.357 --> 46:28.900 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was communicating that I feel like almost more lost now, sometimes where the specific situation I mentioned, I said, there's someone I had a really bad gut feeling about. 46:29.441 --> 46:32.066 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a really weird vibe with them. 46:32.587 --> 46:39.900 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's a situation I've seen play out time and time again, where it's going to lead to some kind of conflict down the road. 46:39.880 --> 47:06.850 [SPEAKER_00]: and I told them I said, what's frustrating is I've learned enough to know to trust my gut and that I've learned how to spot some of these signs and I could kind of write out what I think's going to happen and probably be accurate but also I know this has happened many times there's a lot of pain and hurt there if we want to use label trauma that I said is informing me to be a little bit more skeptical than the average person would. 47:06.830 --> 47:26.020 [SPEAKER_00]: and i said that's the moment where i feel like i'm stuck in this kind of middle ground position where it's like do i just fully listen to myself and go like yeah it's going to be the same as always do i go forward with this i i guess my question for you specifically is you know what do we do when we feel like we know enough 47:26.320 --> 47:50.202 [SPEAKER_00]: where things seem scary, you know, to the point where we're almost being overprotective of ourselves, like we're kind of pushing away from things because it reminds us of past hurts or bad experiences, or even just things that we've learned about, and how do we navigate without becoming almost like a hypochondriac for like every situation where it's like I'm going to 47:50.182 --> 47:59.336 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like this really ships going to go bad because I've seen it happen or I've talked to an expert and this looks like this bad thing, but I couldn't 100% tell you certainty that's what it is. 47:59.456 --> 48:09.891 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you navigate those things where you've got the information behind it, but also you've got to give everybody kind of a fair shake or ever experience a shot, you know. 48:10.412 --> 48:13.236 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, two things come up for me. 48:14.431 --> 48:19.217 [SPEAKER_01]: One thing is that as far as I've gotten to know you, Eric, you're genuinely open-minded person. 48:19.757 --> 48:38.700 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean that technically, like in terms of like a personality trait, like we could probably measure it, I don't know if you've taken the five-factor model, but you probably, yeah, well you probably score higher and open it, like you are above the 50th percentile and openness is like what I would guess about you. 48:40.064 --> 48:44.390 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the problems that an I, I scored very high and trade openness as well. 48:44.410 --> 48:46.513 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm speaking from my own experience here too. 48:46.834 --> 48:57.229 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the problems that people with trade openness have is that it can be difficult for them to pick, you know, the 48:58.441 --> 49:05.279 [SPEAKER_01]: The single career, the single partner, the single identity, the single ideology, because open people don't like boxes. 49:05.981 --> 49:08.689 [SPEAKER_01]: We like breaking boxes, right? 49:08.729 --> 49:13.682 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a beautiful way to be one of the downsides of it, however. 49:14.033 --> 49:16.617 [SPEAKER_01]: is that it can lead to choice paralysis. 49:16.777 --> 49:19.241 [SPEAKER_01]: It can lead to decision fatigue. 49:19.321 --> 49:22.026 [SPEAKER_01]: It can lead to what we might call a diffuse identity. 49:23.187 --> 49:28.376 [SPEAKER_01]: Your identities borders are a little bit more porous than other people. 49:29.197 --> 49:36.388 [SPEAKER_01]: And it can lead to conflict in some of your relationships because other people who are less open, then you, they have no problem picking a box. 49:36.408 --> 49:37.510 [SPEAKER_01]: They like their box. 49:37.490 --> 49:38.613 [SPEAKER_01]: they'll die in that box. 49:38.653 --> 49:39.254 [SPEAKER_01]: They're good. 49:39.294 --> 49:42.442 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's actually something really great about that too. 49:42.462 --> 49:44.226 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's not making either one of you right or wrong. 49:44.306 --> 49:55.313 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like when it comes to the first thing that came up for me was like, well, when it comes to making decisions in life, one of the things that I think and a truly open-minded person like yourself has to 49:56.440 --> 50:25.013 [SPEAKER_01]: practice is practice then after surveying all the boxes like pick one or I know that if that's impossible two or three doing three max and then it's kind of like okay and like then this is the thing to really focus your energy on you don't want to fall there's like an old's um an old sane that's um well if your mind's too open it might fall off of your head yeah right and so I think that's one thing that came up for me the other thing that came up for me 50:25.803 --> 50:27.734 [SPEAKER_01]: How do I know if I can trust my gut? 50:28.740 --> 50:32.421 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, I mean, and I would say that, 50:33.430 --> 50:47.050 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be very difficult and really learning to distinguish real into, like, accurate intuition and instinct from, like, hypervigilance or, like, a past projection or something. 50:47.311 --> 50:49.474 [SPEAKER_00]: You just phrased exactly what the question is. 50:49.654 --> 50:50.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd great way right there. 50:51.077 --> 50:51.697 [SPEAKER_00]: That's, yeah. 50:51.998 --> 50:53.060 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be very, very difficult. 50:53.080 --> 50:54.822 [SPEAKER_01]: And so here, well, here's what I would tell you. 50:55.403 --> 51:02.053 [SPEAKER_01]: And anyone else who's listening to this, one way to 51:03.198 --> 51:15.666 [SPEAKER_01]: check in with your intuition is first of all to it more than once, but do it in different settings across time and make sure that you are grounded when you check in with yourself. 51:15.767 --> 51:16.809 [SPEAKER_01]: What do I mean by grounded? 51:16.829 --> 51:20.818 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, did you could sleep last night? 51:21.710 --> 51:25.597 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you nourished your body or have you been eating a bunch of junk food, right? 51:25.777 --> 51:31.327 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you, um, you know, are you feeling lonely or fatigued? 51:31.848 --> 51:34.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you feeling pent up and stressed? 51:34.353 --> 51:35.595 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you feeling really horny? 51:35.815 --> 51:45.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you feeling like there's like, there's a long laundry list of things to consider to see if your vessel, your organism might be out of whack with itself. 51:45.773 --> 51:51.538 [SPEAKER_01]: because it needs, it needs to conserve energy and bring energy in or it needs to like, expel it, right? 51:51.558 --> 52:15.038 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can get grounded, if you can get in that happy middle state where you're not, if you think of like the window of tolerance that therapists like to talk about, you're not kind of hyper activated, you're not like under, you know, you're not like to press, you're not all slow down and sluggish, but you're not also like overstimulated at all in here, even that nice window where it's like you're alert, you're feeling your feelings, 52:16.570 --> 52:33.093 [SPEAKER_01]: My gut checks are not always accurate, but I do find that if you are a smart and a curious person and if you do it more than once, you can see like what the pattern is. 52:33.374 --> 52:37.319 [SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, you're dating somebody new, let's say. 52:37.339 --> 52:42.747 [SPEAKER_01]: You might check in with your gut and you might be like, my gut's telling me it's not gonna work out. 52:42.727 --> 52:48.173 [SPEAKER_01]: But then the four other times you check in with your God, you're like, yeah, this is a real one. 52:48.914 --> 52:49.915 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is a good thing. 52:50.036 --> 52:52.438 [SPEAKER_01]: I have going on here, like notice. 52:52.819 --> 52:55.542 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, like, take all the data matters, right? 52:55.782 --> 52:56.523 [SPEAKER_01]: But just like notice. 52:56.603 --> 52:57.504 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of like, okay. 52:57.604 --> 53:04.212 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you checked in with yourself and you're thinking that this relationship is a good thing, was it, 53:04.192 --> 53:19.382 [SPEAKER_01]: Just after a really amazing date, like are you really going to be grounded then no you're probably like on cloud nine and like feeling great and when you checked in with yourself and you're feeling like this isn't going to work out this is doomed is it because it did you do that when you haven't seen them in two weeks. 53:20.105 --> 53:37.823 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not sure if they like you like is that the right time, you know, and so I would start to I would sort of refer to your intuition and got a little bit like that, a little bit like it's a like it's a child that you're taking care of in a way, and you have to be sure like as it hungry as it has and how it's nap, you know, is that helpful? 53:37.903 --> 53:38.604 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that answer you? 53:38.624 --> 53:39.385 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think so. 53:39.465 --> 53:46.112 [SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, you phrased it in a way that I think is really good, which is like there's like the knowledge of 53:46.092 --> 54:07.003 [SPEAKER_00]: What you've seen happen that makes you hyper-vigilant, you know, like I'm I'm hyper-aware of Very manipulative, you know, leader figures for example, and I feel like I can clock somebody very well upon me and them, but over the years 54:06.983 --> 54:16.352 [SPEAKER_00]: I also am very optimistic, I tend to be trusting, I tend not to want to be computational until I have like hard proof of something. 54:17.052 --> 54:36.450 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's been many times where I've suppressed that concern, where I've ignored the red flags, you know, and then down the road, I go, I should have trusted my gut, you know, but then you have those other times where you go, you get that feeling and you go. 54:36.430 --> 54:48.764 [SPEAKER_00]: like with a previous position to go, okay, this is going to end badly, or every past I meet, I don't trust their motivations, or every, you know, film a blank, whatever that looks like. 54:50.766 --> 55:02.539 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's a great answer, but it's something that, yeah, I know it comes up with people who listen to the show that I talk to, who've had similar experiences, religious abuse 55:02.519 --> 55:10.009 [SPEAKER_00]: have dealt with, you know, toxic religious leaders, like they have that same feeling where it's like am I just being crazy? 55:10.390 --> 55:12.532 [SPEAKER_00]: Like am I just overly sensitive to this? 55:13.153 --> 55:16.858 [SPEAKER_00]: Or is this an actual like quote unquote red flag that I should heed? 55:17.619 --> 55:22.566 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's always, I'm always like, I feel like I've less of a solid answer on that, you know, every week. 55:22.586 --> 55:24.088 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, listen, it, um, it's 55:25.132 --> 55:31.923 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes sense it's a completely normal struggle to compare it again to like a metaphor of dating somebody. 55:31.963 --> 55:32.965 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 55:32.985 --> 55:41.098 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are dating somebody new, you're coming into it with the history that all relationships you've been in before have not worked out. 55:42.108 --> 55:42.909 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 55:42.929 --> 55:53.003 [SPEAKER_01]: And so therefore it is really easy and human and natural to project the assumption that there is going to be heartbreak or pain in the future. 55:54.825 --> 56:01.094 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't necessarily want that to be ruling your instincts or your intuitions. 56:01.114 --> 56:07.002 [SPEAKER_01]: You want to be able to kind of temper that. 56:07.808 --> 56:15.681 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you could also look at it from the perspective of, you know, depending on if you're trying to like determine like, is this person trustworthy? 56:15.781 --> 56:17.885 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are they like manipulating me? 56:18.266 --> 56:25.277 [SPEAKER_01]: One question I might have for you is, um, what is an acceptable A? 56:25.377 --> 56:28.703 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is your ambiguity tolerance? 56:28.767 --> 56:31.490 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, is that something that you need to work on? 56:31.550 --> 56:38.157 [SPEAKER_01]: But is there a way for this relationship with this person to be successful? 56:38.237 --> 56:39.198 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I learn from them? 56:39.358 --> 56:43.243 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I enjoy the congregation that they've created? 56:43.263 --> 56:45.405 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, whatever it might be, I don't really know. 56:45.445 --> 56:52.733 [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the question is, it's like, am I gonna, is this going to add more than it subtracts? 56:52.713 --> 56:53.054 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 56:53.074 --> 56:56.961 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, like, maybe this, maybe this person does have some of those traits. 56:57.602 --> 56:58.724 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that's okay. 56:59.205 --> 57:09.543 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I remember once I was counseling a patient who is afraid that this new person that they were dating wanted them for their money, because this person was materialistic. 57:09.984 --> 57:17.117 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember I thought the conversation was very interesting because what they the conclusion they arrived at was that like, it is a factor. 57:17.249 --> 57:40.000 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it is one of the reasons they like me, but I'm also certain it's not the only reason and not really like lowered their anxiety about like it's something to keep an eye on like, you know what I mean, like it's not to be aware of, but like that doesn't, but that hardly constitutes this person using you or being a gold digger or going right and either as hyperbitlices and so I don't know if that's just something that could be. 57:39.980 --> 57:43.955 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because it's like leaders are going to be gifted with language. 57:43.995 --> 57:45.421 [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to be charismatic. 57:45.963 --> 57:51.002 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's some of those traits are just completely indistinguishable from the 57:51.590 --> 57:52.451 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not how I want to say it. 57:53.352 --> 58:02.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Those traits are shared across leaders, regardless of whether or not they're like a malignant cult leader, or if they're just, you know, someone who wields a ton of influence. 58:03.202 --> 58:03.963 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know? 58:03.983 --> 58:05.385 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're people, right? 58:05.445 --> 58:16.737 [SPEAKER_01]: The really benign person that wields a ton of influence, like I don't think they're going to bat a hundred, like, you know, in terms of like, they're also human, you know, and I think, but like, is the ratio acceptable to you? 58:16.717 --> 58:19.219 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's that's that's really huge. 58:19.239 --> 58:20.981 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it comes up like I said it comes up all the time. 58:21.041 --> 58:29.088 [SPEAKER_00]: I know I know for and everybody seems to have a different caricature of who that person is that they're like more thinking about all the time. 58:29.188 --> 58:30.469 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, it's for me. 58:30.509 --> 58:42.480 [SPEAKER_00]: It's literally like older male leader figures, you know, like most entrepreneurs in me and I have like a little like Ovarme that's like, ah, you feel a little sketchy and you're calling yourself the visionary of this thing. 58:42.840 --> 58:45.222 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like that always 58:45.202 --> 58:47.445 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's say, it rubs me the wrong way too. 58:48.567 --> 59:06.974 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so good, we're on the same page there, but I know people have the same with dating relationships, like you mentioned, or their parent relationship, they notice things or cycles of things, so I like that you mentioned like the shared traits and the moments of ambiguity and like how much are you okay with that. 59:08.416 --> 59:14.905 [SPEAKER_00]: The very last question I'll pin on that, I know we just have just a minute left, but how 59:15.948 --> 59:18.318 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you mentioned the pursue has been a lot of failed relationships. 59:19.021 --> 59:21.491 [SPEAKER_00]: How much do you think there is a self-fulfilling prophecy there? 59:21.552 --> 59:25.468 [SPEAKER_00]: When we say things like, okay. 59:26.140 --> 59:28.102 [SPEAKER_00]: When we label people a certain way, I guess. 59:28.222 --> 59:29.503 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just keep it really short there. 59:29.523 --> 59:42.254 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, do you think we manifest certain things in our relationships or our interactions with others when we constantly are questioning them or pushing on them and going, like, you seem narcissistic or you seem manipulative? 59:42.374 --> 59:48.880 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, do you think there's any responsibility on us and how we label somebody and how they respond accordingly? 59:49.120 --> 59:55.185 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the stereotype of, if you tell someone they're a cheater over and over again, and they go out and cheat, you know, 59:55.165 --> 01:00:03.960 [SPEAKER_01]: there's something to it that you know how do you I think so I think that one of the 01:00:05.560 --> 01:00:35.010 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the, I think like, the gifts that the psychology field has given us is to really understand that you can really impact your environment, your relationships, you know, just with like the words you use and just like speaking things into, you know, and you go, I like it almost sounds a little new agey, but it's like, you know, do you want to like speak it into existence, like do you really want to like even like give like the energy, right, um, that might actually make it so I don't know if that's 01:00:36.222 --> 01:00:38.665 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if the best way to understand that is manifestation. 01:00:38.685 --> 01:00:44.694 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that just from your cognitive perspective, you know, if I'm always like, what's the saying? 01:00:44.714 --> 01:00:45.895 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, don't think about elephants. 01:00:47.077 --> 01:00:48.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, don't think about elephants. 01:00:48.819 --> 01:00:50.502 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're a good, what are you gonna think about? 01:00:50.522 --> 01:00:51.703 [SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna think about elephants. 01:00:52.304 --> 01:01:00.255 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm constantly treating you, like you are someone who is not trustworthy, 01:01:01.670 --> 01:01:03.454 [SPEAKER_01]: Then in a way, I'm training you. 01:01:03.514 --> 01:01:09.608 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm conditioning you, behaviorally, to expect a certain dynamic of me, and of us. 01:01:10.470 --> 01:01:11.151 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean? 01:01:11.331 --> 01:01:16.523 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that when it comes to some of this like psycho-babel stuff, I think that, 01:01:20.418 --> 01:01:37.920 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that makes personal transformation so hard is that when you make the change, which is already a bitch and a half to accomplish, with you and your therapist, people will continue to treat you like you were your old self and you have to kind of do that work to like change their perception and understanding of you. 01:01:38.801 --> 01:01:49.294 [SPEAKER_01]: And so just knowing how true that is and how universal that is, I feel very comfortable with starting this idea 01:01:50.371 --> 01:01:53.235 [SPEAKER_01]: If you go looking for trouble, you'll find it in a lot of ways. 01:01:53.255 --> 01:01:57.161 [SPEAKER_01]: Now that is not the same thing as saying, and if you ignore trouble, it will go away. 01:01:57.201 --> 01:02:00.186 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not the same thing. 01:02:00.206 --> 01:02:00.566 [SPEAKER_00]: To clear. 01:02:00.586 --> 01:02:02.148 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, maybe don't do that. 01:02:02.168 --> 01:02:04.252 [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of, if it's a dog, it's a mammal, right? 01:02:04.272 --> 01:02:07.096 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see how I actually, like, it doesn't go both ways. 01:02:07.997 --> 01:02:14.907 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I, short answer is yes, with some of those nuances I just mentioned, I do think there is a danger in that. 01:02:14.988 --> 01:02:18.032 [SPEAKER_01]: If for no other reason, you continue to 01:02:18.012 --> 01:02:21.297 [SPEAKER_01]: Treat someone and accuse someone of something they might be like fuck it. 01:02:21.317 --> 01:02:24.703 [SPEAKER_01]: I might as well get the advantages of, you know, acting narcissistically with you. 01:02:24.743 --> 01:02:25.664 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 01:02:25.684 --> 01:02:25.905 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:02:26.085 --> 01:02:26.345 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:02:26.826 --> 01:02:28.769 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know we're out of time here. 01:02:28.969 --> 01:02:30.772 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate there's so much we can talk about. 01:02:30.792 --> 01:02:32.295 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, personality tests. 01:02:32.315 --> 01:02:34.979 [SPEAKER_00]: We could be a whole episode because I had so many thoughts reading that. 01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:37.523 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's. 01:02:37.503 --> 01:02:42.148 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're going to be able to find the book, we're going to find you and hear more from you. 01:02:42.408 --> 01:02:44.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, so I'm Joe new chief therapy. 01:02:44.350 --> 01:02:47.254 [SPEAKER_01]: That's end as an ANC UCCI for those who were listening. 01:02:47.994 --> 01:03:00.388 [SPEAKER_01]: And all of my handles, platforms at Joe new chief therapy.com and my books, PsychoBabble, viral mental health myths and the truths to set you free is available, rubber books are sold. 01:03:00.892 --> 01:03:04.697 [SPEAKER_00]: You've been listening to the preacher-boys podcast hosted by Eric Squizinski. 01:03:05.337 --> 01:03:28.485 [SPEAKER_03]: The intro music, Bible Belt, was performed by Lou Ridley.