[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, with this week's episode, your host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Naseneen Moali.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to another episode of The Sexology Podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm your host, Dr. Nazanine Mowali, and today we're diving into a topic that's still surprisingly misunderstood.
[SPEAKER_03]: Even among the most educated and open-minded couples, the orgasm gap.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's ask the hard question, why do so many women in community relationships still struggle to orgasm during partner sex?
[SPEAKER_03]: While their male partners rarely do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it a biological difference, a communication issue, or are we simply stuck in outdated beliefs about female pleasure?
[SPEAKER_03]: To help us
[SPEAKER_03]: and the author of Eve's Blessing and Subjectify.
[SPEAKER_03]: She works with couples and individuals to rewrite the stories we've been told about women's sexuality and reconnect to the full, untamed potential of erotic pleasure.
[SPEAKER_03]: In this conversation, we'll explore why the elusive female orgasm myth is hurting all of us, why performative sex has to deal with insecure attachment, the key difference between giving women an orgasm and facilitating her full erotic self.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what men can do, not just tonight, but every day to close the orgasm gap in their relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether you're in a long-term partnership or navigating new intimacy, this episode is full of insight, compassion, and actionable guidance, and trust me, you're going to want to take notes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am so excited to welcome back Susanna Wise to our show.
[SPEAKER_03]: Susanna has been in our show a few times and she also released another wonderful book that we're going to talk about aspects of it in our conversation today.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Susanna, thank you for coming to our show today.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited to be back on today.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about orgasm gap challenges that many many longer term relationships experience when they are with a female partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: The reason I was just sharing with you that we're doing this particular season is recently we did a survey of our audience and many of our audience are many long term relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know orgasm gap, it's such a common struggle that couples have, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so easy for men.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to talk about that a little bit, but it's easy for men to experience consistent orgasm in this script that we all have heard and learned.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for many women, they might not experience orgasm on regular basis.
[SPEAKER_03]: orgasm is not the final goal in all sexual encounter, but it's from the many women that they are disappointed.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they want to be able to experience orgasm.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know you write about it and you talked about it, Susanna in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think this is an issue, even in a more educated, progressive couples who had some type of sexual education?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's an interesting question.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I write in my new book, Eves Blessing.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is actually a chapter called How The Female Orgasm became elusive about this idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: You hear everywhere in magazine articles and books about the elusive female orgasm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone thinks that it's really difficult for women's bodies to achieve orgasm.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I argue in the book that this problem is cultural not biological, although
[SPEAKER_02]: you know that's surprising to some people because some women feel like they are liberated and they are educated and they still can't orgasm in all their encounters.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's important to learn how your own body responds to stimulation because different people orgasm in different ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: for a lot of women.
[SPEAKER_02]: Clitoral simulation, I would say most of them, in Clitoral simulation is the easiest way to orgasm and this, this means, you know, spending time on what we often call for play and maybe even redefining sex as something that includes, say, oral sex or fingering, that that is still a form of sex and often we think of sex as penis in the vagina.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the basic, that's the very basics,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know are just starting off on this journey is to prioritize literal simulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Laurie Mintz does a lot of work on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her book becoming glittered is good for that and that can mean also bringing sex toys into the bedroom like people who really have difficulty orgasming that's always my first suggestion is either on your like use a sex toy on yourself and have your partner watch or use it during intercourse I recommend powerful vibrators like the Hitachi magic wand or the
[SPEAKER_02]: womanizer or satisfied suction vibrators.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also I think it's worth having a conversation about how we define orgasm because there is, I think we kind of limit ourselves actually by thinking of just a literal orgasm or a penal orgasm as an orgasm.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are different
[SPEAKER_02]: ways of orgasming, there are people who orgasm without physical touch even, like just they call it thinking off, there are g-spot orgasms, vaginal orgasms, and I know there's a lot of debate over that, like whether that is a thing that exists in my experience a lot of women do experience that, but they may have been told that doesn't count as an orgasm or that they may be a level of dissociation from the body where you actually
[SPEAKER_02]: Do have a sexual release, but you may be in your head or you may do to shame, trauma, something like that may not actually experience the full sensations.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I recommend people keep an open mind about like what an orgasm feels like for them and what and how they reach it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also do embodiment practices mindfulness practices to get more into the body, such as just paying attention, paying attention in daily activities when you're showering, how does this so pill against your skin when you're eating, how does the food tastes in your mouth, then you get into the habit in the bedroom, you know, breathe into your genitals, focus on your breath, focus on the sensation and focus on making noise and
[SPEAKER_02]: other techniques to feel everything that you're experiencing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are all such great suggestions and you're right that I feel like I personally also was gas-lit it into thinking women orgasm is complicated right and where is that coming from?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's because many people when they learn about sex, it's true porn and we talk about there's nothing wrong with porn.
[SPEAKER_03]: if you have media literacy, like any other type of media literacy, but it's not sex education as we often talk about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So often especially for many people that are in adult relationship, they watched more male focus porn.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like we see like, you know, the woman comes in, there's like minimal for play and then intercourse and the woman have this explosive orgasm.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if that's a script we're going on, of course that people feel, oh what's wrong, maybe my partner is broken or something wrong with them, that's why I don't know having the same experience instead of thinking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we're doing is not realistic, or we need more tools and strategies that you were talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, I feel for women, this is something I feel conflicted about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know orgasms are not final goal for relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I feel sometimes we kind of like sell this narrative that it's okay not to have orgasm.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's therefore women sometimes they're not advocating for their pleasure, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, thinking about they say like sex is good and they kind of in a way they want to
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of like they're not advocating when they want advocate for it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think there's just so many different layers when it comes to orgasm inequality.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I truly believe for women that will owners that they want to experience orgasm, it's a skill that majority of people can cultivate if that's important for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And but sometimes people have this myth, what a women or men, when it comes to vulva owners or gastric capacity.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are some of the things that comes to your mind when you're thinking about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as I said, there's this idea that women's bodies are less capable of orgasm than men's, and that's actually a pretty new idea, and it goes along with this idea that women are less sexual or have lower sex drives.
[SPEAKER_02]: It actually, I trace in my book The History of That.
[SPEAKER_02]: It started around the 1700s with Puritanism and
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a belief previously in Christianity that women were actually more lustful because evade the apple, so women are hungry and sin-prone and then, and then due to a variety of factors, political factors, there was this ideal of domesticity where women have to take her of the household.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the narrative kind of switch and said, women are pure.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to raise the children, keep the children pure.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and it's up to women to manage their husband's sex drives and kind of make sure that their husbands don't get too out of control and and that kind of went along with this idea that women are less apt to sexual pleasure and also they need their husbands like they need a committed monogamous relationship to even feel pleasure and orgasm and so there is a lot
[SPEAKER_02]: There have been some statistics spreading that are not necessarily backed by science, like there was this statistic that I read everywhere that women take 20 minutes to orgasm, and I couldn't find any source of it, actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, it studies on masturbation show.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually more like five minutes and but we've been taught that, you know, female bodies are really complicated.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it does take a long time because the partner doesn't know your body or the woman doesn't know her own body.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that it is also fine if that happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is this.
[SPEAKER_02]: believe that for a woman to have an orgasm, it takes great effort, it takes great romance, it takes a lot of time, and this can be destructive because it makes the orgasm gap seem natural.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, everyone has their thing, like everyone has sort of both mental and physical a unique thing that turns them on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the key to experiencing your full orgasmic capacity is realizing what that thing is for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it's kink, maybe it's a specific type of touch, maybe it's a specific position you're in even, like someone in masturbate on their stomachs, and then their surprise if they can't orgasm during sex, if maybe they're on their backs, and maybe being on their stomach is like part of what their bodies need.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I think that once people experiment and figure that out and have the safety and trust actually sure that with their partner, then they learn that they can actually have as many orgasms as their partner if not more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think kind of discovering what works for you, investigating what yours, but leads to psychological, physiological, or also, it is such an important important information to have.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, oftentimes, it's like baking a cake.
[SPEAKER_03]: when they take your, you're not putting it enough time in an oven, whether it's, I don't know, it's two minutes or five minutes or 20 minutes.
[SPEAKER_03]: When it's not ready, it's not ready.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think sometimes people, when they're not experiencing or they're not meeting here or their orgasmic potential is that they're like some missing elements that can help them to have to get past it to experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, I don't want people to feel
[SPEAKER_03]: that they have to have orgasm in a single time to have amazing sexual experiences, but I love them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I want others that are interested in a way I have to really have right to advocate for that and for experiencing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other part of it is that many penis owners, they want to be good lovers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that there are so many people out there that they want to please their partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they feel discouraged when their partner does an experience orgasm.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you recommend them to do instead of, like, either asking people, like, are you there, are you closed, often times lead to people feeling more pressure and the role of owners, not experiencing orgasm, or giving up?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are some of the alternative or invitation you have for this population?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd recommend they have a conversation with a partner and ask, you know, what it is that typically brings them to orgasm.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if that's something that they struggle with, then you can work through that together.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, for instance, this master in front of a partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, they see exactly what works for them or even take their hand and like put your hand over their hand and show them exactly what kind of touch works.
[SPEAKER_02]: or, you know, give your partner permission to touch themselves in intercourse, being a toy.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can also be a great jumping off-point for conversation in couples and even sex toy shopping together, especially at shops like Big Lynn or Good Vibration, they can even talk to the sales people who are also sex educators about what might work best for them and
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just let and if orgasms are something that person struggles with, let just let her know like you want to be on that journey with her and you know it's not it's problem for you it's something that you enjoy and like want to be patient about and just make sure your partner feels supported and doesn't feel guilty about like you know having you put in the effort.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that kind of like you highlight it's not a problem for you right like you want to kind of like
[SPEAKER_03]: cool, create and be part of its partners' experience, and as you said, there are so many different ways that people can go on this journey of exploration.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's interesting that many women are able to experience orgasm consistently when they masturbate.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when they are with their partner, they are not experiencing an orgasm.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what's interesting, it shows that they know their body, that's how they experiencing orgasm, but sometimes something happens with a partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's been that missing element for experience?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so sometimes it's psychological, sometimes they feel self-conscious and ironically, sometimes they're self-conscious about whether or not they'll orgasm, which is when it is helpful to just tell yourself it's okay if it doesn't happen and or if it doesn't happen in the timeframe that I was planning or that I'm used to.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it could also be, you know, sometimes someone masturbates in a particular way, like if somebody is used to specific fantasies and then when you're with a partner,
[SPEAKER_02]: But you find you want to fantasize, but you also want to pay attention to your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's the mind is not completely engaged.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually think if you want to fantasize during partner sex is that it's what brings you over the edge that's fine and even it's even better if you can share with your partner of the fantasy so that maybe they can even participate by role playing or dirty talking or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, sometimes it's a question of physical techniques.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes there is a specific technique someone uses.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and I would encourage people to pay attention to this, for instance, some women like to make a circular motion on the clitoris, or some women rob their clitoris, like more left to right.
[SPEAKER_02]: pay attention to what that is and then ask your partner to do that or even again show them how you do that yourself or during oral sex you can also experiment like licking up and down or sat to side or in circles.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of variations of the technique and sometimes it's just a question of switching up the physical technique to be more what you use when you master it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's good that there are more eagerness from partners to make sure there's mutual pleasure, and we're closing the orgasm gap.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to your point, there's like so many different sensations that people can experience with incorporating a sexoid, whether it's any type of kind of whether it's a suction or touch or a stroke.
[SPEAKER_03]: The option is limitless.
[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes, I hear from my clients, they feel like that becomes the full focus.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know many of my clients they want to be seduced, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Not for everyone, that's the case, but they want to feel sexes of erotic and kind of like this kind of rich exchange.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they find that one of my clients would tell me that my partner just take out the sex toy and put on table, and that's our foreplay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's really helpful for people to know that
[SPEAKER_03]: On the orgasm, we're just like incorporating that as part of an erotic extension.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think is one small thing?
[SPEAKER_03]: Pinos owners could do tonight to move the needle on closing the orgasm gap with their partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would recommend doing something with your partner that is really relaxing and low pressure, like taking a bath together, giving each other massages, doing something that just gets you both into your bodies and does not even
[SPEAKER_02]: include the goal of orgasm and then, you know, that sort of sets the stage for someone to be really in their body and just feel really relaxed and safe and that is a really good foundation for more orgasmic sex and you could even do something you could Google this, Yoni massage, you know, that's this tantric massage where you give someone
[SPEAKER_02]: You start with a full body massage and then you massage the vulva and you don't, you're not really looking for a goal, you're not aiming toward orgasm necessarily, but often that happens because the person is just so relaxed and just focus on receiving pleasure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that kind of scenario, it just whether or not just having that scenario where somebody is not asked to do anything is not asked to orgasm is just there to relax and receive pleasure can facilitate orgasm and even if not it sets the foundation for a more trusting intimate relationship where more orgasms are possible.
[SPEAKER_03]: amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we do have a full video on how to do it in our YouTube, by sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love union massages and I think I can be a very interesting experience for couples to cope, could have cope experience or create for our audience that they want to learn more about your content, your practice, your book.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are some of the places they can access that?
[SPEAKER_02]: You can go to my website, Susannawise.com or my Twitter Susannawise.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's S-U-Z-A-N-N-A-H-W-E-I-S-S and search on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or like anywhere where books are sold for my book, Eve's Blessing on Covering the Lost Pleasure behind female pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: or subjectified, becoming a sexual subject, both our books about women's sexual empowerment in different ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love your writing and I appreciate the richness of you kind of like looking at historic and cultural elements.
[SPEAKER_03]: the link to the content will be her book and also your practice like it will be in the show notes and Susana is always it is such a pleasure to have you on our show and we can wait to celebrate your
[SPEAKER_03]: future content and books and thank you for everything you're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you and I also wanted to add I'm also a sex therapist and psychotherapist and you could learn more about that on my website or find me on psychology today or open path.
[SPEAKER_03]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Excellent.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we can find information to show notes and thank you so much for her time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's be honest, so many women aren't avoiding sex, because they don't care about connection.
[SPEAKER_03]: But because they're not having good sex, when the experience feels disconnected, pressured, or unsatisfying, it's no wonder that desire starts to fade, and sometimes the issue isn't just about techniques, it could be about low desire, plain and simple.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, if that's something you've been struggling with or just partner has, I want to invite you to download my free guide, a women's guide to reviving sex drive.
[SPEAKER_03]: It breaks down how women's sexuality actually works and what really helps ignite their desire backed by science, not shame.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can find the link in the showdowns.
[SPEAKER_03]: Until next time, I'm Dr. Nelson in Moolly and I'll
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for listening to 6-Soliciate podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: For more great content, visit www.6-Soliciatepodcast.com.
[SPEAKER_03]: Please be advised that information presented on this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health provider.