[UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to The Horror Hounds podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was told I didn't want to emancipate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're The Lore Hounds, your guides to small town terrors.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Alicia, and this is our coverage of It Welcome to Dairy on HBO Max, Season 1, Episode 5, 29 Nebeld Street.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you want to get into contact with us, set an email to horroratthelorehounds.com or head
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you like what you've heard and want to support us, or get ad-free and bonus content, check the same link tree for our Patreon and supercast subscription options.
[SPEAKER_02]: So welcome back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: You need not wait another cycle, because I am back right on schedule.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Mark continues to be with us as we've tricked him into weekly coverage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was gonna say, I've,
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess you're the Maddie, you're you're back, but you might come.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Pennywise and disguise, we have to watch our backs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Spoilers, but he had done that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did he take the valium?
[SPEAKER_04]: He did, he took the valium.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mommy's little helper.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know valium was the number one selling drug from like 1968 through like for like eight years?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm not surprised if you make it, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: that's just insane to me like we were just poppin poppin benzos at all the women in America i mean it's just it's it's the easy it's the easy way to temporarily subdue you know it makes you feel calmer and make sure gabba flow and um and yeah it the problem is that it quickly becomes addictive
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were giving it to 20% of women in America at the height, which is just absolutely powers.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what's that of men?
[SPEAKER_02]: And okay, you said spoilers, but obviously we're going to talk about the episode we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what did Lily witness, the made her think that three pills was the correct dosage?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I almost made that joke in the intro where the Laura Hounds were three should be enough.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know,
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it tells us about her mom, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, right, you know, it popping up like candy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, where there were, where there were strictions on dosages back then.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like they were just like, I have some till you feel good.
[SPEAKER_04]: No wonder she doesn't have any emotion when she's dropping her daughter off at the asylum.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's just like, straight-eyed, driving under the influence to, to drop her off.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she's just like, ah, I guess I'm dropping my daughter
[SPEAKER_02]: But it just makes me question what did she witness as a kid?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: If only there's a way to answer that in 2027 watching season two.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's probably true.
[SPEAKER_04]: Probably true.
[SPEAKER_04]: So hot takes here.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to get right into the spoilers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Alicia, you got him?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think that this was, there was a real metamoman in this episode where where Shaw says to Levi, look, it's time to give you some answers, and he's clearly speaking to the audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what...
[SPEAKER_02]: This is kicking off the second half of this show and it feels like it's really taking it into a higher gear.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of people thought it was the best episode yet and yeah, I have to agree for the most part.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's we've gotten a lot of good character building in this show and this is I think where we start to see everyone pull together or parts and things take off and
[SPEAKER_02]: when I look at the way we said spoilers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I look at the way Pauli was written.
[SPEAKER_02]: He is a character who was not developed at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we just said that a couple episodes ago, and yet he's like literally just the magical save your bestie.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I was still sad about him dying.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they've they've done that well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, mainly real gripe.
[SPEAKER_02]: is about tenual dropping the dagger.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't believe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't believe he was carrying that loosely around in the bag like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: A little convenient for the plot, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there were a few moments and I'll let you finish it as I said.
[SPEAKER_04]: There were a few moments like that where I felt like the plot was moving the characters and not the other way around and in a bad way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's my biggest critique of the episode, but mostly I agree with you as a good episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you'd be holding on to that thing to the point that your your hand will be cramping up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he knows better than almost anybody, you know, what he's working into and that that's his protection.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I just don't buy that part, but Well, Alicia, it turns out that when Pennywise sheds into the sewer system, it actually turns water into a lubricant and so nobody would be able to hold onto that dagger.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I see.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he's just, he's not even holding it in his hand.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just has it in his bag like nowhere, no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have that thing in your teeth, like a pirate.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if you're right, if
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd be like Alicia Dagger arms, you know, anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have to give back some internet points.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mark, you were correct that the pillars are indeed the boundaries of dairy.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm taking back the theory about March.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that we know March didn't lose her eye, she could still be Margaret Tozier.
[SPEAKER_02]: So putting that out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, yeah, overall, love the episode, especially love the cinematography.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the way the camera was moving through the sewers and like the steady zooming pace that sort of heighten the anxiety.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, there was this really cool shot that stood out to me that was mimicking one of the movies where there's a train passing over
[SPEAKER_02]: a highway at an angle and the kids are walking through the grass beneath it and this was an even better version than that famous movie shot so it's just the cinematography we haven't been talking about it but it's also been super addictive on the show very nice David what do you think I'm just joking because he's going to get so obsessed in the
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... she didn't say the name of the camera angle type of right it was a good idea it was a good idea
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I, I started on my, my takes with you, so I'll, I'll just continue.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I think, um, this was, on first watch, I was not a huge fan of the episode compared to the others.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I, I started to see some seems cracking.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I, I stand by some of those criticisms of like I was saying, the plot moving the characters rather than the characters moving the plot, seeing the writers hand a little bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought that that was,
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... that was popping up a little bit more uh... and and a little bit of the dialogue was like uh... this is this is very very show this is very very tell-mouth show um... but overall it worked really well i you know for me this is a great show for me because i like diving into the lore and this is now we are getting on lore
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, Native American Indigenous American backstory for the history of it, and I think that's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was trying to find out from Mark if the glue is from the books at all, even from like Dark Tower and Mark, you've answered in the negative.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I hate to break it to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have two options that are equally time-consuming.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to really learn the lore.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to learn about the beams and the guardians of the beams.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you have two two options.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can either listen to half of our podcast from last week or you can read the entire seven book Dark Tower series, which might actually be faster because the glue is just one piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: The glue is not from the books, but we really
[SPEAKER_01]: Choose your poison.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of those two, put the podcast at 2.5x speed and it'll be a little faster than reading seven books.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fair enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I just wanted to ask you also about the prior two episodes since we didn't hear from you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to be able to separate them because I've been to this catch up, but I mean, I actually enjoy those more, which is why I was When I logged on to discord and people were like, this is the best episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I was like, oh, interesting But I don't know if that's because I've been to it and I might have been fatigued by the show by that point like I don't think this is a good bin show I think this is really a show that's best watch week to week
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... and i know we have we have people on both sides of that debate should be released everything is binge and everything is weekly and i think that there's probably a middle ground where like something's better has been some things are better is weekly and this is definitely on the weekly show for me
[SPEAKER_04]: Because first of all it's a long It's very lower dense and so you want to be able to digest that before next week and I think by the time I watched this episode I was just like okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: More more budget Harrison Ford explaining to me what's going on under ground I don't know if I could do that right now
[SPEAKER_04]: on rewatch i liked it a lot better because i was i was coming in fresher and i didn't have to follow things as closely uh and and i do think that the chemistry between you know over the last few episodes the chemistry between the new new new new years club uh which i've i've referred to in this outline of square central i i i didn't get a chance to listen to your last podcast so i don't know if you've already named them no all right well i'm calling them square central from episode two
[SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that their chemistry is really good.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's so important for an it show because it's all about friendship and the losers club.
[SPEAKER_04]: And let's get everybody together to fight the big bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's all I got.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think overall I really like this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wanna say, like it's special on rewatch, I really like it a lot better.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mark?
[SPEAKER_04]: give us your target.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have not looked through the discord about this episode yet because I didn't watch this until yesterday.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're recording on Tuesday.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't watch until yesterday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had already, I was a day behind everybody else and I didn't want to be spoiled.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't even open until Monday in everywhere outside the Americas.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was Sunday.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sunday night for you, so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't watch it until Monday in Estados and Needles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I didn't know that everybody thought this was the best.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think speaking of discord, I feel like I've been ruined a little bit by discord, because, let me just say, I like to this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed it as what it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of quibbles about the writerly aspects of it though, and I feel like I've been a little, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to decide my take on this episode as this conversation unfolds, honestly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason I say I think I was ruined by the discord is that somebody said something on the thread for our episode four coverage about how nice it is that we're fans of this and that we're enjoying it, we're as some other Steven King fans podcast they've been listening to are really harsh on the show and complaining and I feel like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh no, now I'm not liking this as much as I was watching it like that kept like coming up in my brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, there's, I don't think this was my favorite episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe by the end of this conversation, I will decide it is my favorite episode, but there were just some things about it that kind of like rubbed me the wrong way in terms of the
[SPEAKER_01]: the way the mission all came together like it just from a plotting perspective I think I'm with John that it's kind of the plot drove the characters which is not really how Stephen King will operate until the last 15% of the novel and then Deus Ex Machina can take over which time of the way Mark, I will certainly
[SPEAKER_04]: It did my toe in and I learned two things.
[SPEAKER_04]: One, he's very character driven too.
[SPEAKER_04]: He really likes to say slurs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe a little too much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a lot of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait a little way is coming.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why are we doing this?
[SPEAKER_04]: Stop your white guy.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can't do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but you know, there's certain King novels, Fizzle at the end, is a common criticism.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say I completely agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he marks that himself in this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he has, I don't even remember that or maybe is or is it only the, um, I think it's in the book as well, but yeah, the Bill character, which is a Stephen King stand in, um, he is constantly being made front of that, you know, he always drops about the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: that's not not surprising at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's often a writer stand in by the way in these for folks that don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, and I don't even mean necessarily just like just to stand in for him like a literal writer character, a professional author, right, sometimes in one of his most recent books, a poet, for example, but that's what I think this is one of the most like literal Stephen King-like ones yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say build damn bro, definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think this episode was good horror.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the scares were more real, I think they.
[SPEAKER_01]: even the sort of CGI crazy clown frozen face was cool looking like I didn't think this was nearly as creaky as some of the other I've been complaining John about some of the, uh, weird, uh, heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't go to the podcast and I heard about it, but but the last couple episodes have all been improvements on that and this was this was similar.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I just, I'm on the line on this one and it has to do with kind of just
[SPEAKER_01]: what the implications of the story of this all are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think we're gonna, and not from a lower standpoint, more from a plotting standpoint.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm looking forward to getting into it and pissing some people off on the discord.
[SPEAKER_04]: Excellent.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's good to be genuine in our takes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will say I'm more for giving a bad CGA than you as a child of the prequel trilogy I just I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I I it's almost charming to me sometimes the bad CGA I'm like all right cool You know, we're we're back in it with Anakin.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought this DJ in this episode was great, especially I do too, so yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it looks it looks very real.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was wonky in the graveyard.
[SPEAKER_02]: The graveyard.
[SPEAKER_02]: We all agree
[SPEAKER_02]: Not where they threw their budget look.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was at 1995 Casper.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it was I loved that movie Actually, it's great movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got sucked into watching a clip of it Yeah, and I just I made me re-won want to re-watch it and I just watched it with my kids for the the season
[SPEAKER_01]: a few weeks ago and the CGI in that movie is better than when I watched the the prequel trilogy with them a few months before that like that's better than episode one and that's that's 1995 I feel like it's better than episode one the way it's in integrates with the sort of real-life meat space you know anyways
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we're not here for Casper, we're here for Pennywise, the Dancing Clown, and I think it's time to get right into it, so let's get to Square Central.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's growing, baby.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're growing the club here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Marge takes the blame off Lily, and apologizes to her for not believing her sooner.
[SPEAKER_04]: She joins the Pennywise resistance group.
[SPEAKER_04]: In their secret headquarters, only for none other than Maddie to appear.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I've reversed that a little bit, Maddie appears, and then March comes later, but, you know, we'll forgive it for my wallet.
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, looking haggard, Maddie.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, the group wants to take Maddie to the police.
[SPEAKER_04]: He refuses out of fear of his abusive father.
[SPEAKER_04]: He tells them, Teddy and Susia are dead, but Phil remains alive in the sewers.
[SPEAKER_04]: The group agrees to go there to find their friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so this was, I have to say I fell for this for far too long, first of all, because they set us as the audience and lily up to believe this is real because of that whole scare she had with the with the pickle jars where there were the cereal boxes and all of the kids decayed on the cover on the fronts except for Maddie and Phil.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, oh, they're alive, they're alive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because sometimes he does stash people down there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because I was kind of almost expecting that, I looked over things like he says that he can only hunt during the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, oh, sorry, you're at night.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he sleeps during the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know that not to be true.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see him do daytime scares all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, yeah, what I was looking back, I was like, oh, but then you have Tom, what am I saying?
[SPEAKER_04]: Paul Bunyan.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Paul Bunyan.
[SPEAKER_04]: That whole thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: That whole scare with Richie in the second movie.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, oh, no, he could definitely do not.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of my what do we talk about?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he he scared these kids themselves during the day, you know, March with the eye thing last week was during the day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, in retrospect, also people were pointing out like,
[SPEAKER_04]: the way that Maddie reaches his arm and grabs the tent is very pennywise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, why does he have a tent?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so I'm not going to claim that I totally thought coming, but I was wondering, this is either pennywise or this show is losing me more because my whole thing was I had in my notes as I was watching the first scene that he appears.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there is no way this
[SPEAKER_01]: Let alone escape, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He would be Komato's, like he's claiming Phil was, and then it's like, oh, because he's not real, because those kids don't know that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way that they would know that it would be essentially impossible for somebody in that context to escape.
[SPEAKER_01]: And no, it was the show playing honestly with us like you're right that that wouldn't happen because it didn't happen But I can't claim internet points because I was also like, yeah, but they might be changing things.
[SPEAKER_01]: This might be a different kind of power set anyways But yeah, it's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nice to They've allowed themselves from a plot set up
[SPEAKER_01]: um a chance to do that in a way that we don't get in the original novel because we have this generation one group of kids that gets captured or killed right we get this opportunity of what happened to the first kids whereas we in the original story just really Georgie I know there are other kids that disappear but
[SPEAKER_01]: but nobody that's connected to these kids that we can do this in impactful moment because Georgie is from the reader perspective we know he's dead right and maybe his brother and his friends don't know that but we get this possibility because of what Alicia was saying on the cereal boxes and all these illusions um so pretty cool moment um glad they didn't break their own kind of uh rules or whatever but uh good trick
[SPEAKER_04]: I agree with it would have felt very cheap to have it end up being madty after all those all those slips but I wonder do you think that they should have not gone with a cereal box clue because you think that that was you know a chance for for reader was that was that deliberately misleading someone in a way that like you couldn't have gone back and predicted it because the best twists are ones that you when you go back you can predict it right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, when you look through what he said during this, it should have been obvious there's the way it's grabbed and I thought that was just the writer, you know, the way he grabbed out of the tent and I thought that was just the writer's messing with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then all the things about like lying about, you know, Pennywise hunt said night and also the whole
[SPEAKER_02]: don't go to the parents of the police and now we have because of the show's taking the time to get there we have the kids at a place where we understand why they want to go to another their parents nor the police because they are like, yeah, no, yeah, they don't believe us at tracks.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's in retrospect, it's like, it was like a face palm moment for me, like obviously.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I realized it by the way, it was when they were walking through the sewers, and he was clearly not affected by the value.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, the rest.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, okay, it should have been obvious, because I think that it did set it all up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say to answer just the question about the cereal boxes, think of that as a character moment more than for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of that as things that would set up in Lily's mind, that that could be alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: That feel could be alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sure it plays tricks on us, but what it sets up is this very real possibility that if she ever saw a...
[SPEAKER_01]: trick version of Maddie or Phil.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd be more likely to believe it because she didn't see.
[SPEAKER_01]: She saw Susie's arm get ripped off.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she doesn't, if she saw fully intact Susie, she's going to go your hallucination, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not true with Maddie.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wanted to believe Maddie was was still alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is sort of, I guess, baked into some of those early scenes in that first or second episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we think, yeah, so we had the whole conversation last week about the chemicals that, you know, they were talking about Pennywise liking the adrenaline and cortisol, and then we hear that Pennywise's bright eating brains.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we think, but this was coming again from fake Maddie, so we don't know if we can believe any of that, does Pennywise like to eat brains, or is that just playing on a zombie trope?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't know, Mark, you're the Laura expert.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was, I'm sure Pennywise does, but he does everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, he'll eat everything, he sucks your soul, he does whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still feel like that was that line.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a throw away that 12-year-old said, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do we know for sure that predators seek the chemicals that makes it like, we know in the lore that it salts the meat for Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_01]: But do I know that my dog loves the fear if he's chasing the squirrel?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know that that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, no, I feel like it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, you know, anyway, see, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: My take last week, John was essentially it's a metaphysical.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it has to be actually mid-eclorians or whatever here.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, again, I'm more forgiving because of the bitclaw, it's my pre-critrology period has performed me to accept this lore, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: This, it can be both, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be the magic and the, and what I would say is to the real fundamentals of the question, back to the whole idea of the cereal boxes is it makes it believable for the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: The kids heard Will, the smart kid of them, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The, the, the, the learned 12 and a half year old or whatever, and he said this thing about predators and chemicals, and they bought it, and so to have a, another one of their friends say he's eating brains, that probably all makes it feel more real to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So because Pennywise knows that probably on some level he can read their minds and stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it, it, it doesn't have to be true or not true what matters is what they believe in this context, certainly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, is anyone else, by the way, worried about Rich, because, okay, here's my theory.
[SPEAKER_02]: My theory is that he's, first of all, worried about him and his planes, because they remind me of Georgie and his boat, and my theory is that he's going to die, and then Margaret's going to grow up and name her son after him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is she Margaret?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he don't know yet, but now that she's kept her eye, it's back on the table.
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a small town.
[SPEAKER_02]: These kids have to grow up to be the next generation's parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: We know that for a fact, with one of them so far.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a small town.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I feel like people move in and out of it quite a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a small town based on Bangor main and Bangor main has still tens of thousands of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's smaller than Bangor main though, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they refer to, don't they refer to Bangor as a location also?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that Banger exists.
[SPEAKER_04]: It I will tell you that I read I read it last night that that Richie was flying into he was he's going to Boston and then flying connecting a flight to Banger and then taking a heart from there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's separate town like a look we don't need to re-lit again this because we're just going to watch and find out but like to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, I forgot.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you just put before we got distracted by airports?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the idea... Well, it's not that much.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not much.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I, oh, sorry, it's my space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, it's still early folks.
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, it's fundamentally just like...
[SPEAKER_01]: Why doesn't that come up in the novel, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are plenty of, way of your hands.
[SPEAKER_02]: This character doesn't exist in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It novel, they're expanding the novel with this show.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but Richie Toes, your 100% does.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but we don't hear his mom's whole backstory.
[SPEAKER_01]: But a, it, hunter from the previous generation, they've taught us,
[SPEAKER_01]: would probably have the capacity beyond a regular old dumb adult and dairy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and this is not the same canon as the novel either.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's based on the novel, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, in the film.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no scene where his mother talks to Richie about it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We feel like Richie's family is one of the more functioning families in because we don't hear of terrible abuse, right, which is already way better than a lot of the other.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can be very accounting it to be honest, but since I don't mind that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and it could be reckoning it, but like I guess like I don't want to be in the there's enough connections that like I'm not going to assume Marge is the same as Margaret and there's some secret like no I mean I don't have a little bit like the second half of my theory just putting it on the table I rest my case I guess I'll just say I hope it's not true because then they have to like they've got to have the web episode for nine minutes that shows a scene where
[SPEAKER_01]: her actor in the first movie is deciding not to talk to him about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just breaks what we learn about what happens to you when you grow up if you were.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lisa.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could see, you know, Mike is someone who intentionally tried to remember, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Dedicated his whole life to remember.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that I
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, no, but my canland dedicated his life right to remembering and being the historian for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whereas I do think that the adults in dairy a lot of them have had these experiences and chose to forget, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It was just traumatic and and if you choose to forget in dairy, you're going to forget.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's, Pennywise is going to help you out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, this for me is all about the sort of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: what's the thing y'all talk about about the test of whether something's a good adaptation or whatever life should be tested yeah ship yes so for me the i'm not saying this isn't true that what you're positing i'm saying that that's the kind of thing that i don't want to be true because what it is because to me and this is this is
[SPEAKER_01]: Spoiler for later in the conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the issues that I have with this episode have to do with what it is, not it, not it the lore, but like what the story of it is and what the sort of central idea about what makes it that story and not the dark tower and not stranger things or other properties right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And it has to do with the way that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has to do with the way that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what it is is what makes a loser's club and what makes the psychology of a loser club and what makes what happens to the losers as they grow older and so if
[SPEAKER_01]: like there couldn't have been the seven of them grow up in the original its story and one of them doesn't survive because he kills himself, but none of them turn into bad guys that join its side none of them they either refuse the they other accept the call to fight or they are too terrified to do so there isn't we're not the story is about love and about friendship right and so the idea that marge grows up and
[SPEAKER_01]: she's not like leaves her son to do this alone and not be like so I guess what I'm saying is
[SPEAKER_01]: what it feels like they're telling us in the entire thousand page novel or whatever and the other adaptations is that if you were a kid who fought it even if you died you were your special and it and you have a bond with with the rest of your team that this would break a little bit so i'm not at all saying it's not right i'm saying that i don't think i like it like the bird put it this way they've got an uphill
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a stupid reach theory, so I retract it, but listeners may be, I don't personally find it a little satisfying, but if you're saying there's a chick, they got a lot of work to do to make it good.
[SPEAKER_04]: on saying is they got a lot of work to make it actually not break the vibe a little bit that's the thing um... you know that doesn't mean they won't i actually kind of want to push back for it's just to it i just want to say like to me and again like i have read the full novel so i'm gonna i'm gonna you know you have more cred that i do mark
[SPEAKER_04]: on this, but to me, a central point of it is how adults can ignore the cycle of violence that was perpetuated against themselves as children and are now being perpetuated against their children.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, like this idea, because, you know, I think I talked about this in the earlier episode, like there was kind of a thing in the 1960s where people confronted the fact that as a nation, we kind of confronted the fact that,
[SPEAKER_04]: fathers were abusing children, rather than just strangers were abusing children, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, for the first time, you were like, hey, maybe it's not good to like hit our kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like this idea was like, merging.
[SPEAKER_04]: And as I was sort of in the late 60s so I think a lot of the story of it is people ignoring the atrocities around them because it's it's it's just part of the vibe right that's just part of society and you just accept and you look the other way and we see that would charlotte
[SPEAKER_04]: Being looked at is the weird one for interrupting the boys beating up the the kid right and and so I do think that it's possible That Marge goes through all this once to forget because maybe all her friends die or some of her friends die and she grows up and it's just kind of Numb to it As I say maybe she has her own kid of mommy's little helper She's learning
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot about how this where this goes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, Marge's arc is already her flirting with abandoning her friends and kind of joining the bad guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, there's a setup where like this is true and Marge's story in the season ends on a note.
[SPEAKER_01]: that makes me go oh yeah well she's gonna turtle probably shouldn't use that term because that doesn't mean that doesn't mean the same thing she's gonna lock herself in her shell and just ignore the rest of this for the rest of her life there's a version of this where she essentially abandoned the quest or she wouldn't I mean and they and that actually in that case would be a satisfying character arc because that was a struggle they've showed but if this
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all about what they do with these characters now.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it goes the way of...
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the later group where they team up and they've through force of will, not the character, the mental state.
[SPEAKER_01]: They fight back and they beat Pennywise and they all have sex in the sewer together to like show their bond, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like the original Losers club did.
[SPEAKER_01]: And whatever, and then Marge grows up in a band into her son to it, that doesn't, I don't buy that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if this struggle that she's facing continues,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're right in the hands of what John saying, which is that dairy makes the adults ignore atrocities, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is true, but the other, the other acts factor here is the adults that are actually dealing with this right now, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is a very different, those adults are not ignoring it, but those adults are not.
[SPEAKER_01]: either compassionate and fueled by fraternity and things like that and love for their kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are a lot of variables in there that can make this completely satisfying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I ever since probably the first season first scene I've been like,
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I'm cautiously enjoying this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But in any minute, they could make choices that make it awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or make me go, oh, no, you're kind of like bust in the vibe here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is one of those things.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, I just want to run one thing by you guys, because there's something that Maya, my darling wife, pointed out to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: is that, and maybe you mentioned this on an earlier practice that I didn't hear.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, uh, Marges Eyes often have like an RNG yellowish light in them, her, her, her glasses, for the first half of the season.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know if that was for Shadowing, via tack on her eyes by Pennywise, or if that's for Shadowing, that she will eventually work in Pennywise's interest.
[SPEAKER_04]: wild haven't noticed it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's pretty cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: It'll be like the project.
[SPEAKER_04]: It'll be like the sun, you know, at all these all these random things and you're like, but how many times can that happen before it's not a coincidence?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: How many of these kids do we think are going to make it out of this season?
[SPEAKER_01]: Two.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fat it could be they could fail right I'm like this ends and we'll talk about the auger later or whatever right but like this all we have no reason to think this always is successful right so we know that we think that like in the second movie they show the tribe being unsuccessful right so like
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like we have two options.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every cycle, Pennywise has beaten back before he's done, or Pennywise just say sheates itself and sleeps for 27 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it would be appropriate for some of these seasons to vary in that result.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean all the kids die, but they might not win, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it could be that some of them die.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, are we putting internet points on this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have zero idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do, exactly, it will, except well, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I do think, and marginally, I do think, well, no, I'm not saying to just a theory, it's just an option.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in fairness, I guess, Will could die, and the hamlins could just have another kid, a name of Will.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what, maybe, people do that, I don't know, maybe I wouldn't do it, but people do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like game of thrones had like major character deaths in fits and starts, walking to have the same like shocking moment and then like you'd go a while and there'd be another one but then you'd go entire seasons where nobody important ever dies, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm speaking of this show game of thrones not not the novel series, but
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do feel like we're kind of there in the sense that this is I should not say this out loud because I'll be proved wrong next Sunday night, but like we had all those kids get killed in the first episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're going to I think we've got these kids for a few more episodes and if there's massive loss, it's going to be at the end of this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my guess like we're not reconstituting the losers club again, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cut getting and losing Maddie in this episode again might kind of serve that purpose.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's the only thing I'll put internet points on, but all bets are off otherwise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maddie, of course, like three inches taller because, of course, they had an eight-month gap in filming because of the writer's strike.
[SPEAKER_04]: And all these kids had gross fights, which is kind of funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this was the first episode of the break to be clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It allowed Bill Skarskar to come back so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, he was, um, he had a filming conflict and then when the writer strike delayed filming conflict went away.
[SPEAKER_04]: Alright, well, let's take a break and then we'll continue on the episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: or back to observe a clandestine meeting Alicia you want to read it
[SPEAKER_02]: The secret guardians of its cage from this school to I should have remembered this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's got a Wopscott.
[SPEAKER_02]: Scott of Wopscott.
[SPEAKER_04]: I practiced at yesterday.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all right.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not what I was outlining much.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a real try.
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, we'll talk about it in a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: Meet to discuss the status of this galou cycle.
[SPEAKER_02]: They note the number of deaths and disappearances, but seamlessly pleased with the low level of violence.
[SPEAKER_02]: They also note that it
[SPEAKER_02]: has been shedding into the water supply making the residents of dairy more aggressive.
[SPEAKER_02]: They suspect that the augury, a final large violent event to end the cycle is coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rose learns that Daniel has been taken.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, there's this scuttle offset tribe and then but the tribe in the the name they used also not a real name in the it movies was the shook of Pua so why why did they change the made up name of the tribe I wish they had addressed this and the
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, on the podcast, I was trying to look into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't find any, I don't, you know, we talk to Bip before about the, the Wabanaki where the consultants that they use and I am assuming that they're using Wabanaki language, but then the Wabanaki, they're like the ear accore where,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Wabonaki's a name of the overall nation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Erikao is a name of the overall nation, but Mohawk is a type of member of the Erikao nation, Penobscot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe hit something like that, where one is like a larger collective name or maybe there's something like we talked about in the subscriber feed we talked about during the pre episode that the command she named that we use is actually the name another tribe uses for them that means enemy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they have their own name, like the Numu Nuu, which just means the people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe it's something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's just it's itching my brain.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need an answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did you change the name of this tribe?
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe they all die out in the season and then they're replaced.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, somebody else moves in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Except they said in the second movie they've been around since the 19th century at least do we think that there's a good reason for it Like did they do we think it don't think it's an accident like they didn't just accidentally do it so there must be a reason I have so yeah, I'm like speak on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Say it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell me Yeah, it would almost be like what's the point of being some meticulous on the Maddie thing That we just talked about and then being so sloppy on this.
[SPEAKER_04]: It has to be for a reason I think you don't just like yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't trip into just making up this.
[SPEAKER_02]: The right other name.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't, you don't actually write.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's got a wopska.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we think since they are made up names?
[SPEAKER_01]: If they were trying to make everybody, I just think this fact that they both start with an S sound is going to people will not even notice.
[SPEAKER_01]: that a lot of people I didn't notice until I'm seeing them written that it was a different name, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm wondering like how obvious are they trying to make this?
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're making up a name, they didn't go for something that necessarily stands out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe for your average viewer, I wonder, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is this like Easter egg level detail, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's some lore of for it that we'll get hinted at, but they're not really
[SPEAKER_01]: trying to telegraph it very strongly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very high school thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll keep my eyes peeled if there's any subtle answers.
[SPEAKER_02]: you'll hear it here folks.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to by the way speaking of theories.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to shout out Rita Reborn's theory from last episode about it's being stronger in the past.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we got a few pieces of support for that this episode, including hearing that this is a milder cycle than the prior two.
[SPEAKER_01]: The funny thing about that though is that feels a little knock on wood to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like this isn't this isn't done yet y'all What are you doing counting bodies yet?
[SPEAKER_01]: The chickens haven't all hatched though?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we know they're seven or dead?
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know Many of those right like I feel like we only can account for a couple deaths Matty fill of the four four kids so who were the other three?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure, but we don't ever know in 16 in the modern time, we don't like, you know, in the novel in the current lines of the novel, we don't really know.
[SPEAKER_02]: We only see our losers club, not all the other kids who die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, there's a few others that they encounter, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: But
[SPEAKER_01]: you know read a reborn by the way read a reborn shout out has definitely read more Stephen King than any of us which is pretty cool to uh... in the discord to have folks that really know their law uh... but like i wonder we don't have that number in the it novel timeline to be able to test this theory right is
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it only 15 people overall that are disappear and five people die like I don't know weed we don't it's hard to really know, but also Like do they how well do they know are they tracking it right how accurate is their information they're trying obviously which nobody else is which is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm, okay, Mark Pluggier is for this, but I was wondering, they're educating a perspective keeper, this woman we see there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if she could end up with Daniel.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other thing that they talked about is the, is the auguries, what they call, like the auguries, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh
[SPEAKER_02]: prediction of sorts, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or a symbol of things to come, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's what they call the big bloody event that marks the end of a cycle like we've already said.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's in the opening credits.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the talked about in the prior movies, the end of 1908, is an explosion at the iron works during each Easter egg hunt.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if this is though an analogy for the real world, you know, whether something like the atomic bomb in World War II that was like the moment where things have gone too far, we have to pull back.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that could be also the augury could be like the sign that we're going to have our peace time, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like they're looking forward to the peace, I think that they see that as,
[SPEAKER_04]: the hopeful event in the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the end, the augerie and then 27 years or more or less of beastly say, so maybe that's what they mean by the augerie.
[SPEAKER_01]: But augeries sounds like a lot of violence always, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we don't, right, sure, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we don't get a sense like the extent that they're trying to fight this or stop it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're tracking it, but are they kind of biting their time until there is a horrific event?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or they trying to, like, it's kind of an interesting weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you say they're looking forward to it, but they're looking forward to a mass casualty event seems kind of troubling.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think what they'd tell you is it would be a huge mass casualty event if we didn't have these boundaries.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we don't know what actually, say, see, it's Pennywise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why, what numbers is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if they removed the...
[SPEAKER_01]: pillars or in the novel whatever it is that's keeping him or it in dairy like how far would it go would it take over the world like they mentioned if you episode to go or would it just does it get satiate after it eats you know 20 kids and that's just what it is and why would it you know like
[SPEAKER_01]: think like the biggest predator in the world right the sperm whale the sperm whale doesn't eat the entire ocean eventually it stops eating squid and it just goes about its business you know and feel like it's hungry again so um i don't know it it remains to be seen but probably won't ever be explained or seen so there we go well i i do think there's a lot of
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, disappear or not, there's a question later I know that, I don't know, Alicia, do you raise us in the feedback of like, was it eating dinosaurs?
[SPEAKER_02]: What was, oh, yeah, I mean, we talked about this a bit last week, and then it came up in the feedback, but yeah, it's wondering, would your take was on that one?
[SPEAKER_04]: I do think, you want to just read the email now so that we're already done with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it's from Bobby R. Bobby says, Hey folks, Bob from New York here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Last episode, you guys were talking about if Pennywise only needs children and the answer is no according to the movies at least the opening scene of chapter two.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a violent hate crime and it eats the man after he's been beaten in Thrin in the river.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he eats at least adults.
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes me wonder if he ate animals and dinosaurs prior to human existence.
[SPEAKER_02]: My thoughts are.
[SPEAKER_02]: If he comes out of hibernation only to feed, when the natives witnessed it, is it because he was awake and feeding probably on wild animals, love you guys, keep up the lore.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, just to clarify that we've been talking about the adults and we've brought up Adrian a few times, but
[SPEAKER_02]: it prefers eating children and marked you in a clarify why prefers eating children and adults?
[SPEAKER_01]: They feel fear or more, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So they have more vivid imaginations, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a meal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, more flavorful, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially if you tenderize it with a dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we don't know what happens when it doesn't eat, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if the tribe was keeping to their sort of
[SPEAKER_01]: rules of don't let's let's all stay out of the Western wood for generations and generations was it not eating anything until the the uh... colonists and did have a hibernation cycle in that same way we don't really know so it's possible it was eating animals possible um... it was eating dinosaurs or whatever else would exist millions of years ago but it's also possible i said this last week possible it just
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't eat?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a supernatural creature, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It may not be eating for calories, it may be eating just because it has a drive to do so.
[SPEAKER_01]: To the extent that it's even really eating, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: because pizza's tasty.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, I think that I'm a little biased because I just started attack on Titan over the weekend as this whole idea of like the Titans don't need to eat.
[SPEAKER_04]: They eat for fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: For some reason, they just loved the humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I feel like that's kind of the Pennywise thing, where I like, I don't think he dies because he doesn't eat, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But also, I always thought that like he filled himself up and then went back to hibernate for 37.
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens if he doesn't?
[SPEAKER_01]: If it doesn't kill itself up, we'll just stay away hunting for millions of years and never, like, we don't know, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe, or maybe a hybrid ain't no matter what, it has a clock, or maybe it eats rats.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's really, I mean, it's not always 37 years because between the two cycles in the it's book and movies, I think it's always 27 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: When is it ever 37 years?
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, we don't know that it's always anything, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what it was in 1700s.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the thing, is we only know what is recent history, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Since 19th century, I think the fact that it appears is just like zombie elk to the Native Americans who first came to the dairy area, I do think that it probably was fucking with the animals.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I mean, maybe I shouldn't have phrased it that way, but you don't even mean it was messing with the animals It was it was feeding on the animals and I you know my head cat it is he's scaring these animals Because animals exhibit fear right you can you can make that have cortisol and it will's You know will's estimation But also then the humans come along and he's like oh
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been bored and this looks more fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's just so much where you can do with human fear because we have imagination.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can imagine things that are not real.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think he would much prefer humans, but I think he probably could assist on non-humans.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder how Pennywise would be today because apparently yeah, so kids are easier to scare or you can scare them in more hallucinatory ways and adulterous scare them more abstract ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like if you just show an adult and inbox with like 3,154 unread emails and-
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is kind of weird like how this would maybe change over generations, right, and cultural changes, like what people are afraid of.
[SPEAKER_01]: changes obviously generationally right if we go back to like 16 you know 50s or whatever in New England there's a lot of which fear or whatever right but if you go to you know the 80s or whatever 70s it's going to be Cold War fear and but I wonder if people's capacity for fear stays constant right if certain types of cultures certain types of errors
[SPEAKER_01]: the kids are raised to be more resilient against fear versus like this this doesn't matter but it's just interesting like with that also as fierce change does the amount of flavor change with it because societies
[SPEAKER_01]: like are we in a fear we're in a like I feel like hate and anxiety might be more prominent in our society now than fear I think when my my parents were kids and it was you know duck and cover drills there might have been a lot more fear for the end whereas we're all more like angry and wound up and holier than now and all sorts of other versions of fear um that I wonder like which would Pennywise prefer?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I think let's say part of that discussion for later because I think we're going to talk about major handling and whether he can feel fear, right, whether it can affect him and the answer is yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let's move on to the Shawshank Express Mark.
[SPEAKER_04]: You want to read that one?
[SPEAKER_01]: on his way to be transferred to Shawshank Prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hank Grogan survives in assassination attempt by Phil and Susie's dad.
[SPEAKER_01]: The bus doesn't make it to Shawshank instead getting derailed by an attack on the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hank escapes and runs to Ingrid, who was his a fair partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ingrid goes to Charlotte for help.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so there's a lot of, you can someone explain to me, because I don't fully get it.
[SPEAKER_04]: The connections that we're supposed to be making between Ingrid,
[SPEAKER_04]: March, not March, what's your, let's your last name.
[SPEAKER_04]: Kersh, and Kersh, is she supposed to be the, the elderly woman that
[SPEAKER_04]: Bev hallucinates adult Bev hallucinates, which he goes back home.
[SPEAKER_04]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's Pennywise is copying her just like Pennywise is himself a copy of this real Ingrid Kirch's father.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't really know in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we don't really know anything about Mrs. Kirch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Back story wise as far as I can recall in the story except that she's a hallucinated neighbor kind of for Bev.
[SPEAKER_02]: which she said, she said her father was Bob Gray, which is the, um, uh, and we saw in this season, we saw the the young girl clown that seems to be the same person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we wonder, yeah, because Stanley, the cleaver, the butcher, he said his last name is Stanley Kirsch.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, indeed.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's, she is Mrs. Kersh, but I don't think she's 100 or something years old for the 2016 story line or whatever it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's, I think that is Pennywise mimicking her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's joined his repertoire.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that means we don't know now.
[SPEAKER_02]: is she actually trying to protect Lily or is she trying to protect the entity from Lily and her friends by saying don't go into the sewer as blah blah blah but I guess not because the entity wants
[SPEAKER_02]: Lily to go into the sewers, but people keep pointing out she's often has like a red jacket on her red cardigan on or something which in that red is the I just didn't get a chance to say in the last year.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like the worst person to be working as a housekeeper in a mental hospital I mean, she's just encouraged like if if Lily's really having delusions here She is absolutely encouraging those delusions, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like oh, yeah, I believe you and this is all real and and like
[SPEAKER_04]: My god, she's giving like, she's like undoing the treatment of the medical professionals.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing an effective treatment of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't,
[SPEAKER_01]: it is like you all are reading the book way more recently than me and I don't know are you far enough in at least you had to get to the curse misses curse seen yet
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, no, but I know that she is, you know, she is mentioned in the book and she's the headhouse keeper, not as the of silence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I don't remember is, was there, and I don't think there was, but I don't remember for sure, is there a connection between her and Beth?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is there some, because most of the scares, but not all the scares relate to something very specifically.
[SPEAKER_01]: the person is afraid of, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But adult Dev and that context goes to her old house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, oh, my dad isn't here.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's this woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: This nice woman who comes in and talks and then she turns into a monster.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't remember who talks about her own father.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they both sort of just exploiting the similarities of they both had these rough dads and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so I think John, I don't think
[SPEAKER_01]: We have any reason to really think there is a connection actually except that Pennywise has chosen to sort of absorb this woman's identity into his uvra in the same way that Bob Gray, the clown, becomes kind of.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I mean, how do we feel about the reveal that Mrs. Curse, Ingrid, is the married white woman whom Hank is sleeping with and seeing Stanley, Smiley, Stanley, who didn't want to help Charlotte break up that fight with the boys.
[SPEAKER_04]: he's he I mean he seems like he could be physically abusive but at least is emotionally abusive at home he's really a jackass to Mrs. Kirch and in front of you know I think that there is a couple of things here there there is the very common thing where people go I had no idea he was a gentleman in public right like there's so many men who put on a really kind face in
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, but but also like those men often see kids, especially younger roles as like disposable not in nonhuman like I don't have to worry about you like like he doesn't think he's exposing himself as an abuser of Lily.
[SPEAKER_04]: He thinks he's abusing his wife from front of a dog, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that that's the kind of thing he's viewing himself is doing here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I I didn't trust him from the moment he was like they call me Stanley Cleaver and hell holds up the Cleaver.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when we heard the book readers were just like, okay, or even keen eared folks from the films, I mean, to the point of the twist, they got me because I was, I was putting in my notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no, there's no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would he just go into her of all people just hiding in her backseat and it's like, oh, of course, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is interesting to the whole question before a couple of weeks ago about is the fate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does he perceive Stanley as so bad that again the consequences of being caught with his wife is worse than being murdered in Shawshank a week later for being a child killer and like is it so much worse and
[SPEAKER_02]: also like he still made that decision to have that affair so like it's a weird like we sort of just take it as evidence of how messed up Darry is I'm not gonna I'm not gonna blame either of them for the affair um but I mean I think that what his what he has here is he's like there's one situation he knows the affair is real it's a real thing that's happened and he won't wouldn't get his day in court is what he's saying and with good reason
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas he knows he's innocent of the child murder, and yes, he's holding back on this alibi, but I think he sees himself as having a better shot there, and at least...
[SPEAKER_02]: they're being a day in court and of course yeah he's got to watch his back in prison if you ever made it there but he didn't so we saw okay we know Pennywise was was there when he got arrested we saw the the father tried to go after Hank and the father by the way wearing a red shirt but then we saw that Pennywise cop in the doorway with the buck teeth smiling through the door um but why what was the goal of attacking that
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it something related to Mrs. Curse?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does Pennywise already have a connection with Mrs. Curse?
[SPEAKER_02]: And knows that he's having an affair with her, or is it to sew up more bad feelings in dairy and make sure that Hank isn't taken out of dairy for some reason?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you guys have theories about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I just say real quick about the, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: father who the grief father tries to shoot him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels a little bit like it was almost an out the outside of reference.
[SPEAKER_01]: If anybody's read that or seen that, it doesn't end the same way, but that's very much that story hinges on a convicted child murderer.
[SPEAKER_01]: who a guy attempts to kill when he's on his way to face his day in court, and it goes differently, but that's very much at the beginning of that story, and it felt like they have to be aware of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was an HBO mini series a few years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean anything there's no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the outsider takes place 50 years later or whatever, but felt kind of like a nod.
[SPEAKER_01]: To the question, you're asking, do we have any reason to actually think it is,
[SPEAKER_01]: Over turns that truck like I sure it could be but it could just be yes, something else, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but why is a really good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would say I would say based on what they said in the episode and how they showed Pennywise lingering around the scene beforehand that I take the Pennywise part is a given.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there could be a few different reasons why.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I'm interested to see if it connects back to Mrs. Kirch or if it's just general sewing disc or it can highlight what the reasons why aside from just improbability
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember exactly what he said when he talks about the transport being attacked, but I took that immediately as that on its own, I took as one piece of quote unquote proof.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing is that cop in the doorway, I was just talking about who was obviously influencing the father, but just was generally hanging around, Hank being loaded on the bus, and
[SPEAKER_01]: It is kind of a weird thing for it to want to do, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Kill these possible criminals, but maybe save one of them?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I could see several reasons why, maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because of different ways, it's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was just wondering if you guys had any.
[SPEAKER_02]: Perfectly.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: At this point, I have something going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we got a lot to go through.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to move this on to a preparation, which shouldn't be too long one, because it's mostly just set up for the next scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rose confronts General Shaw about Tangles' detainment.
[SPEAKER_04]: He confesses that he remembers the Galoo.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rose retrieves the weapon made from its home, and while she has reservations about Shaw's plans, she gives the military the dagger for Tangles' use.
[SPEAKER_04]: She tells Tangles to keep a close and he will be safe.
[SPEAKER_04]: Leave Roy finally, let it on the plan, moves his family onto the base to be free from dairy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Lily visits ingrid at home with her abuse of husband, the butcher, and promises not to enter the sewers.
[SPEAKER_04]: She proceeds to immediately make plans to enter the sewers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, about Leaver, I taking his family to the base.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we'll still need to go to school, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And is the base safe or is the, is the base in
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but we'll still need to go to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna have a free shopping.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're gonna go into town.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he might just be thinking, well, it's one thing to like go there sometimes, but just like his kid got attacked when they were, or like stalked in the middle of a night, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, oh, well, we won't be sleeping there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is probably,
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, in apps.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, yes, very interesting, which I guess was within Dairy.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, it's probably a futile adult feeling like they have control over a situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm not sure he's thought that through, because he still, they're going to go to Dairy sometimes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I wonder, I wonder if, um,
[SPEAKER_04]: he will be going to school or grocery shopping or anything like that because I wonder if will not will.
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe Roy thinks that this is going to end quickly, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they're infiltrating, they're wrapping up the mission here.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're going to put the leash on the thing and then it'll be done.
[SPEAKER_01]: one day at home.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, maybe a few days.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he missed a few days of school, whatever, but maybe a week at most, but you know, better than him being in the target of this thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I, I think that's fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, if I thought that that was going to be wrapped up in a week, yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: But let's keep him out of the supernatural across our crosshairs for a week, he could miss a week at school.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how this whole thing works.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think he's just kind of delude a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah and he's listening to shawl is just a lie make a lie or face lyrton just like constantly every chance he has he just lies stupidly and then is caught a minute later and it's like oh yeah I lied about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: here's the truth and so you can't trust a single thing that he says he's really like i wanted to you know say oh maybe i shouldn't jump to conclusions because he's you know this uh... white major in the sixties but no he is he's really crappy i don't think that he's racist per se but i just think it's bad it's going to be enough of it's going to be becomes red Hulk later you know it's already for shadowing it too much
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, just like stupid things like saying, how are in flips through a tenials mind, he says to Rose, like the morning paper, which is just a phrased really cruelly for no reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he says that immediately after he just said, oh, tenials told us the truth, you know, like he just keeps changing to find
[SPEAKER_02]: the coolest way it feels like to stab at Rose and make Daniel sound bad to her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's not buying any of it to her credit.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she just must be so heartbroken to have that kid.
[SPEAKER_02]: She had this bond with grow up into this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I make lie up in man.
[SPEAKER_04]: How many nice young boys have become old man?
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was weird that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, Shah is telling Leroy about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we apparently just did this psychic expedition and some of this information may be shot already news.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, what's the point of doing this?
[SPEAKER_01]: This really harmful deep dive into a tango's mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then we don't see how we're in explaining it to Shah and Leroy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't see how we're in explaining it to
[SPEAKER_01]: to Leroy by himself, like it's a weird, the way they set it up is a weird chain of information that really does call into questions sort of the integrity, so to speak of, Shaw.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's just a weird kind of the way they skip those next scenes when they come in, what happened, what happened, we, we don't see any of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we don't have, I was probably in a memo, we just didn't see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was an email, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, yeah, he,
[SPEAKER_01]: He comes away worse, you know, and this whole plan is just, I mean, we're going to do it, but the whole plan is so stupid that, like, I believe that he's a bad, your bad, his brain doesn't work well enough to be a good general, like, and he's a part of that would be lying and treating his people in a weird way, and maybe he's not racist with a capital R, but he doesn't mean he's not a bad general and a bad dude, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: right right yeah i mean i think he's he's dumb in the way the is actually quite realistic where he's refusing help from rose and other experts on this very topic but then he's a special kind of stupid that i guess it is a recurring trope in Stephen King stories when in regards to the military where it's it's a sort of like frankenstein thing this hubris that makes them go too far
[SPEAKER_02]: his plan is who was it was a TV man because someone was saying on the discord like uh step a cage the glue step b question mark question mark question mark step c profit and the full work this is so stupid and this is where
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where I'm like, okay, you're playing with fire show.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope this works out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know it's like, there's a little bit of like, different mix here.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little bit of stranger things in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little bit of alien whale and utani.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the story is about like the hubris of man and a way that like, it sort of isn't as much.
[SPEAKER_01]: But still like, step one, you're like, can we just fast forward a little bit just talk about the plan for a second?
[SPEAKER_01]: not not be on this episode, but they're going to go in.
[SPEAKER_01]: One team is supposed to get whatever that means or like I don't remember what they say, but get these pillars.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the moment that you get them, are you, you don't have 13 teams that are each grabbing one and grabbing the stone and moving closer closer to like how do you, how does somebody like this is a video game, a JRPG, you're going to collect the stones and then what?
[SPEAKER_01]: When you pick up that stone, you just broken that line of the barrier, they're going to bring it in, let's say they contain it, which makes no sense to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: then they they they create this new little box for for it they drop it over Moscow how did I get it back in the box like I I understand that it's the hubris of man but like they don't really they have not thought it's precious prop on this
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, I think the idea is like, yeah, it's Russia's problem and they just don't care about, you know, the fact that the people live there too, but it is, you know, it's, it's like, how would this end the Cold War just because they want to, they want to kill Russia, they want to commit genocide, because fear is what's driving the Cold War.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just amp up the fear more and it's going to turn into a lot more.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to do this a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you don't cruise chef and then go to sleep for 27 years and they could worry about it in 27 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is one of those things though like where they're writing the line between, well, we're making a point about how stupid, powerful people can be, and dumb writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's lazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just don't know yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this something about the mission and the sewers struck me is just false here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm hoping though the broader point here is not just a lazy way of telling us that.
[SPEAKER_01]: A kind of dumb way of telling us that the military in the government is kind of corrupt and short-sighted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, because it's just no general is going to think so few steps ahead.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what was the next step in MK Ultra right what was the next step in the time in Montauk time trap right nonsense right like I There are a million wild military expeditions that have no step to
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so yeah, because Shaw talked about, he, he took some drug that made him get his memories back.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I, I hope they tell us what the drug is and why they're experimenting on Shaw because the military must have had a reason to target him.
[SPEAKER_02]: But since you brought up M.K.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ultra, do you want to talk about what that is?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what that is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you seem to know more about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think they just give him value.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I copied this from the NIH report on NKUltra, this is just a summary that sounds very on point for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Beginning in the 1950s, the U.S. government collaborated with pharmaceutical companies and research universities to develop LSD as part of a campaign of psychological warfare.
[SPEAKER_02]: through plant, though planned to be used against enemies, the program instead exploited US service members to develop hallucinogens as a form of chemical warfare that could render enemy troops mentally incapacitated.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it says later in that report,
[SPEAKER_02]: The military's research on LSD ended in 1963, which is a year after the show, not because of the unethical aspects of the research, but because the effects of LSD were so unpredictable that the drug could not be effectively weaponized.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is, you know, if substitute Pennywise for LSD, and that's exactly what's going on here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I guess we'll do another time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, why don't we get going because we have a lot of stuff to go through here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay, but just pointing that out and then I know fire fire starter is I know we don't have time to get into it But that's apparently linked to the MK Ultra stuff because the parents were tested on and that's why they had the fire starter kid I haven't read fire starter, but apparently there's a guy I've heard people talking about it and like there's a part of you government called the shop that is sort of the
[SPEAKER_01]: Hawkins Lab, the like part of the government does this kind of experimentation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's quite possible that that intersects here very directly, that we could even see that name.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I don't know anything about that novel specifically.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: John, can I just ask you, do you think that Rose gave 10-year-old a dagger to protect himself or to die?
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't even have a glue and work.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think she knows that based on the legend.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, yeah, no, I think she knows that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody else is going to die.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I've seen, so, you know, you just stay alive.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about the sewers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I thought it was weird though on that dagger that like, they said,
[SPEAKER_01]: that it would pose no threat to us or something like that and they didn't let him hold on to it, but but they said something about that dagger posing no threat to the soldiers and I was like, it's a sharp heavy piece of rock.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was just such a weird, I don't know, I'm out, they've lost me on any sort of the oxymoron of military intelligence is really like hitting hard in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we can leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Typical Stephen King trope, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, let's get into the sewers because we're running out of time here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Armed with mommy's little helper, this is the sewers junior, by the way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Armed with mommy's little helper, which three should probably be enough of the kids enter the sewers from a drain pipe.
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... that that was in the um... the barracks right that was the same one that the kids entered to in the movies uh... meanwhile the kids find the corpses of fill teddy sushi just in time for madday to transform into it in all its pennywise glory
[SPEAKER_04]: The kid's run and Lily gets left behind.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pennywise opens its jaws to consume Lily, but his stop by the dagger which had looted in front of her.
[SPEAKER_04]: He retreats.
[SPEAKER_04]: I try to always do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, loot.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love the way that Bill Skarscards us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Looting.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was...
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a few floating references as episode Lily said the whole thing, my dad used to say that people are either anchors or lifeboats that drag you under or they keep you afloat, which is like you don't want to float.
[SPEAKER_02]: Floats are bad thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she says, yeah, are you lifeboats?
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're floating down there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Lily compares the volume to laughing gas.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought I was floating right out of my, oh, are you too holding hands?
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't have funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, CG are not like we've established that millions of rows of teeth or whatever, and that's a Pennywise look in this series.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that moment when it's charging and then stops is so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a great scare, but also you get this moment of a bright light on this really disgusting clown face.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you really, really
[SPEAKER_01]: part like culmination sort of of that little part of the scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really original visually original reveal with the teeth starting in the back of the head and.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I thought that that was great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think we kind of talked about, you know, the CGI being better in the sub-sodes, so we can skip that part, but don't take that much value, everybody.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I mean, don't take value, but it's not really approved for, is it still approved for use at all?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it is, it's, but it's really, it's a short-term effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, you know, if you want long-term medication of that sort, then you want an SSR.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure, but even for something, something like this, a benzo, you're going to get exam next now, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's been, it's been functionally replaced by second generation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it does not work toward off Pennywise hallucinations.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And apparently Lee Roy's amygdala, amygdala, um, also doesn't, it doesn't stop the hallucinations, but he reacts differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and it's like Pennywise can almost use that to react better, you know, because he's he almost shoots his own kid, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He really is differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but he's not necessarily good soldier against it any better, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: He's almost a Henry in the situation, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Henry Bauer.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like you can twist them into being what he needs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I just say before we start because it looks like we're about to dive into the adults again?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we think those are actually the corpses of Phil Teddy and Susie or that's just a Pennywise hallucination?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they are legitimately dead.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that was a hallucination.
[SPEAKER_04]: That could guess.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, too perfect to be right there as they wanted.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: But they're probably dead.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, they're so dead, so dead.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's get to the sewers senior.
[SPEAKER_04]: Lee Roy leads a team into the same sewers through the Nebel street house.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nebel Nebel One down there he sees Charlotte begging for help.
[SPEAKER_04]: She transforms into a monster and he shoots her Telling his partner probably to shoot anything that should be down he should not be down here no matter if he knows them or not Tang y'll loses the dagger in a chase and Dick Haloran is pulled under by it
[SPEAKER_04]: Inside Dick's mind, Pennywise takes the form of his abusive grandfather, he shoots Haloran's grandmother, and forces Dick to open his mental lockbox, while approaching the exit, liberating counters his son, and moves to pull the trigger.
[SPEAKER_04]: Poly realizes it isn't an illusion and stops the worry by stepping in front of the gun, taking a fiddle wound at the end of the episode Dick walks out of the sewer and finds a dead poly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, I just want to shout out the Uncle Sam scare.
[SPEAKER_04]: So good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is, uh, yeah, was a, was an effective one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, on point for, you know, they would be worried about being, did you see, did you see it coming up on the hand?
[SPEAKER_01]: How fast did you, you two catch that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was going to be Uncle Sam, no, not until there's something about that hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I knew and I was proud of myself for knowing that I was a whole three seconds ahead of the audience.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the way it's pointing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So weird, but cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like to update them.
[SPEAKER_02]: they're like gas main leak and then they're invading the entire military on this street.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is so we had this whole debate about whether the house was already of wreck and it is already a wreck.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's in the same state.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is in the 80s and 30 years after that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's is it just magically maintained into this permanent state of disrepair and nobody doesn't say house like that did you have higher contractors to go in and make it messy again like or like like I
[SPEAKER_02]: There's even a car that's parked outside in the movie, the same exact place, like this old punch buggy, as in, at this point, in the timeline.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's like nobody's touching that property.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be a plot hole, but we're not supposed to worry about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can headcan it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why I think it's intentional, like they went to, they went to great lengths to show that it's good to show.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know that that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder, rewinding all the way back to episode one, is this beyond the powers of Pennywise?
[SPEAKER_01]: Forget about the House Unable Street, I mean it's fascinating but like we could argue about, how is that possible?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can Pennywise be in so many places at once, because Pennywise is very literally
[SPEAKER_01]: doing stuff like he is Maddie because he we encounter Pennywise earlier in the episode not Pennywise the clown but like it is doing stuff in dairy throughout the other points of this episode right it's not just at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I crazy?
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there's stuff with Dick Haloran.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think two things one is that I think this this is another support of reader Reborn's theory that Pennywise is stronger in the past, but I also had a thought like what if Pennywise did at some point have offspring, you know, we talked about the eggs that were destroyed in the original movie would if there actually was more than one
[SPEAKER_02]: What if Mrs. Kersh is actually, I don't know, because she seems like she's got this whole life or her husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: That right there would be, and if we think Pennywise messed up that truck going to Shawshank, which, first of all, that's outside of dairy, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless it's not somehow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they didn't let it, they didn't get one of them to leave pair rises there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pennywise is also Maddie with the kids in their hangout at the standpipe, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So or wherever, I think that's where they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Pennywise is very much in two places at once.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if we say in the sewer, he's in seven different places at once.
[SPEAKER_01]: We could say, well, that's Pennywise's layer more, maybe he's kind of not, but I don't know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pennywise in any era is supposed to be able to be, like if Pennywise, if you remove the barriers, can Pennywise be in South Africa and in Norway at the same time messing with people or is Pennywise a and D-D-A?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that's a different question than can Pennywise be two places in the same town, which is a legit question, which is either, yeah, Pennywise is stronger or their,
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is another crack pot really reaching theory, but what if Pennywise did have offspring and they managed to fill them offspring?
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that it's intentional and they give us a little bit of nugget explaining it because it it's another one of those where I'm hoping it's not just sort of them playing to fast and loose because like you can play fast and loose, but if you're choosing to do
[SPEAKER_01]: a prequel that is not fast and loose, it's prequel that adds to the lore and like milks this and lures us in, you all less some amount of cause consistency, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't do how to the dragon and just break stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to like, if you're choosing to do that, treat it with care.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm hoping that's what I'm not saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is breaking, but it might be, and so that's these are the things that make me go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I trust, oh, I have more to say.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm willing to give these writers a little grace here to wrap it up by the aim of the season.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, or at least explain it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Still three episodes left.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have two more seasons, essentially, of this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think they're going to have to save some mysteries for those two seasons.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was surprised to see a flashback to 1908 already because now we're already
[SPEAKER_04]: material.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we'll see.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I know I know we have to get you out of here Mark.
[SPEAKER_04]: So why don't we just talk about one of the things at least the orange late in the lock box.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the lock box.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: General like what?
[SPEAKER_04]: I know that's a doctor sleep reference.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's something there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I guess my question was did that unlock
[SPEAKER_01]: It's confusing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you've read Dr. Sleep Wright, seen the film, Lisa.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like.
[SPEAKER_01]: This we talked about this one of the last episodes like the lockbox is the way it's his trap Ghostbusters trap basically he throws it under the ghost Ray stomps on the thing it opens up and slimer gets pulled into the trap for the containment unit and so it's weird to see his grandfather which is probably not a grandfather ghost.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably Pennywise uh
[SPEAKER_01]: holding the lockbox because the point in the lockbox is he's put his grandfather in the lockbox.
[SPEAKER_01]: The ghost that he doesn't like get trapped in the lockbox where they just sort of can't bother you anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the idea that his grandfather is holding it suggests that's not his grandfather, but then essentially if you remember to go spusters that moment when the
[SPEAKER_01]: the the EPA guy peck or whatever forces them to open the containing unit and all the ghosts escape.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what would happen if you opened that lockbox met a physical lockbox is just ghost that he's trapped in his recent years would escape to what end it almost has nothing to do with it or Pennywise, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So um
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of weird, like orange, light, like Pauli's eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's eyes, like these things shouldn't be related.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really interesting if they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's in Poly's eyes, I mean, Poly's dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a ghost, obviously, we saw him die.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then we see there was white-ed over eyes in the film.
[SPEAKER_02]: It means they've looked into the dead lights.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have seen the dead lights as those three white circles is how they represent them in the film and how they we saw that in the flashbacks about the glue.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how that relates to that orange light in the lock box, which we've talked about the orange light, the yellow eyes,
[SPEAKER_02]: dead lights stuff so i don't how it all relates together is a good question but RIP Holly he was he was a real one i don't know why Pennywise didn't let him see the scare but he still understood what was going on and in the official podcast apparently the behind the scenes head cannon that was agreed on by Andy Muschetti
[SPEAKER_02]: is that Pauli saved Leroy when he got his brain damage, that Amigdilla brain damage issue Pauli is the one who saved him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's just constantly there saving Leroy saved his son and saved his son.
[SPEAKER_02]: Leave it alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, oh, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just I'm good.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just let me go.
[SPEAKER_01]: We couldn't use more of him because the ends up, he's true blue and he didn't see the deadlines, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He was just shot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is, this is, it's interesting because.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a question, but it's not just a question, it's the episode cliffhanger, sort of, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm thinking like the experience of people who have seen Dr. Sleep or Red Dr. Sleep, and those that aren't is very different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they're treating this is very important to the story, whereas three episodes when ago when we were,
[SPEAKER_01]: Drop in the knowledge about what happened to Dr. Sleep with Haloran shining it felt a little more Easter Aegee like well, it's just some context for understanding what's going on here That's not true at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually like very much a part of this story to the point that it's the last shot in the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we are all book readers of the Stephen King mythos are all pretty much in the same boat in terms of not knowing what's going to happen next as the non readers is exciting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think we did it folks.
[SPEAKER_04]: We wrapped up this episode just in time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll do the outro by myself.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mark Alicia, thank you for joining me on another episode of Welcome to Dairy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, glad to have you back.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello, everyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just getting my feet wet coming back to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if I miss something.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_04]: You'll probably hear about it on one of our other episodes, but here's what I do know it's going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pluribus is getting full coverage.
[SPEAKER_04]: David's handling that with Nicole from Nevermind the music and that's I hear a great series.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm hoping to catch up on it by the end of the season.
[SPEAKER_04]: So go check that out.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a Vince Gilligan sci-fi something.
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... we also have coverage of the american revolution show with david and brine eighty sixty three also known as usil uh... covering all that historical goodness now brine as you know is a historian and he's uh... been a supporter and a moderator in our community uh... for quite a while and he's contributing his voice to this entire series which is great i can't wait to catch up and listen to all that
[SPEAKER_04]: You can also catch up on all of our affiliates, radioactive rambling is just about to do fall out season two and I think that's going to be a big show for this year.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're also going to have more from properly Howard movie review soon, just two buds talking about movies.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll shift dust, I'm sure we'll be back with some holiday goodness.
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, you know that Mark, who was on the podcast today, has his own show with Nicole, where they talk about music and psychology and all the intersections there, uh, called Nevermind the Music, and you can find all of these affiliate shows in the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Go there, be merry, for now let me give you the thank yous for our Discord server boosters Aaron Kay to live with the Ruler do 71 Athena A, Listoo, Nancy M, Ghost of Partition, Radioactive Richard and Adron, and our lore masters, Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E,
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[SPEAKER_04]: Nancy M. Dove 71.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Aaron K. Delevy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Il Mario.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Jessica H. Redzippy.
[SPEAKER_04]: The TCS Dupamine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Catch it.
[SPEAKER_04]: L&R, and Adrienne.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks everyone for listening and we'll be back next week with more dairy.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Laura Hound podcast is produced and published by the Laura Hounds.
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