[SPEAKER_02]: Today on the Relationship Renovation, podcasts is part one of the four part intimacy series.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is the intimacy discrepancy when one partner wants more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, all, and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tara Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my name is E.J.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are a host of, obviously, this podcast, which talks everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Relationships, owners of our Relationship Innovation Counseling Center in Tucson, Arizona.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are developers of the Relationship Innovation at home program that that book is now available on Amazon.
[SPEAKER_00]: And founders of our new Patreon Relationship Innovation.
[SPEAKER_00]: at home community.
[SPEAKER_00]: And why do I say all of that because our passion is helping couples normalize that they're not broken and that it takes certain skills to make relationships work and build emotional safety.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are trying our hardest to get so many different things out there so that couples have access to this and our hearts are grateful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm grateful for this opportunity to be here
[SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, let me introduce today's topic, you know, on the same vein as what Tara's saying is we know that couples don't think it necessarily, but we all struggle with very similar things and making our long-term relationships work and what Tara's about to introduce is definitely something that we see over and over with couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so we are actually doing another four part intimacy series called bridging the intimacy gap, why?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because so many couples struggle with intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we say intimacy, we're talking emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, sexual intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we really want to help you guys understand and normalize all of the layers that go into.
[SPEAKER_00]: intimacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, the four part series bridging the intimacy gap, part one of the series is understanding the intimacy discrepancy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Part two is a good one.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is the silent saboteurs and that is stress, shame, and a mismatch in desire and how those contribute to the intimacy gap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Part three, from disconnection to curiosity, rebuilding or building for the first time, safety around this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the final one, which we think is amazing and super fun, and it gives you the hope of going through all of these together, is creating a new intimacy story, desire, play, and lasting connection, and doesn't that sound just as- It does, so here we go, so here today is part one, understanding the intimacy discrepancy, here we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So setting up this first part of our four part series, the first part is all about understanding what the intimacy discrepancy is.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's when when one partner wants more.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that we always like to be like super clear about is that the word intimacy and sex,
[SPEAKER_02]: are not synonymous.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's an important thing to sign up for here, and that when we talk about what the intimacy discrepancy is, we're talking about intimacy on the entire spectrum of ways in which you connect with your partner in an intimate way, in kind words, loving gestures,
[SPEAKER_00]: And this every couple has a rhythm, and when that rhythm gets off, people don't quite understand it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are here to help you because one partner might crave closeness and the other might need space.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then how do we understand that and create a rhythm for it while most couples don't?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will just say this research shows 80% so couples, you're not alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: 80% of couples experience a desire discrepancy at some point in their relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: and the happiest couples are those not that they eliminate the differences, but they are the ones who learn to talk about it safely, and with empathy, and we're walking examples because if you guys have listened to any of our other podcasts, like this was one of the hardest areas where E.J.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I could have discussions because it's so vulnerable, but we've done it, we've built it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's finally here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's still clunky at times,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and if you even if you go back a couple episodes, we did an episode about sex and intimacy being transactional that that is like that fits very like deeply into this intimacy discrepancy is that oftentimes you just discover that you guys have different needs you have different ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have different desires and that 80% like even when we were doing the research and we were talking about it like I was like really like even though 80% feels like wow that's a lot like I want to say higher you know I want to say like almost every couple in some aspect of their intimacy there is a discrepancy in how much or how little they crave.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you are a couple that has not experienced or you know a couple that has not experienced intimacy discrepancy, like we want to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to interview you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to know that like secret.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've set this up.
[SPEAKER_02]: We set up that today we're just sort of like looking at what the intimacy discrepancy is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that one of the biggest parts is what we just sort of did is we said like, hey, this is like super normal.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is something that
[SPEAKER_02]: you and your partner, probably if you're not talking about it, are super like aware of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's seen in almost every couple.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that we have struggled with throughout our relationship, or always sort of fine tuning, always finding ways to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the goal isn't, you know, I feel like with this, like the goal is,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no endgame.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no like, oh, one at one point, you know, terror and I know exactly what the perfect balance of her needs and my needs are.
[SPEAKER_02]: But instead, it's about being in relationship to this dynamic in the long term, because also the thing is, is like, things change, you know, that we age.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go through difficult times.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, in our, I think it's the second
[SPEAKER_02]: all the things that sort of like make these things happen even more so so it's just knowing that like this is something that we're in relationship with together for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And well and I feel like this right we don't like change and especially in the beginning you know intimacy feels so exciting and close and then when differences happen we don't quite understand so really the goal is to understand why these happen because it happens like
[SPEAKER_00]: and there's a myriad of reasons why.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as EJ was kind of talking about before, when we say intimacy discrepancy, we're not just saying sex, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There is desire discrepancy in that way, and we'll get to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we want to talk about emotional, physical, and sexual intimacy, and discrepancy because
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say a emotional intimacy, one person likes to be more vulnerable and the other person is more of weight and or shuts off, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a discrepancy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say one person is more physical in the relationship and really affectionate and likes to touch and the other person is just that is not who they are.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are not as affectionacy, again, that's a discrepancy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then sexual intimacy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: different libido desires.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, understanding the difference is talking about them normalizing because differing desire levels are typical and it's not about love or compatibility, but that's where people get really tripped up on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, we must not be in love anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: We must not be compatible anymore because this isn't
[SPEAKER_00]: happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can say, maybe for some cases, I'm not saying for everything, but we know through experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't have the skills or the empathy or the emotional safety to talk about all of this, it's going to be left unsaid and resentment builds from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where that maybe we're not in love anymore, or we are mismatched.
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, it could be a lot of
[SPEAKER_02]: I think another like interesting part of this is that, even us talking about a right now, we're tending to put sexual emotional, you could even say intellectual intimacy, we're sort of putting them into different containers,
[SPEAKER_02]: and saying like, oh, like so and so once, you know, one member of the party of the couple once more this, one once more to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like also like as you like begin to talk about it with your partner and you begin to just like look at it more deeply, it's that they all sort of are interconnected.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like one thing that we didn't interview a while ago with a guy named Zach Brittle and we talked a lot about sex with him and he was talking about, he asked like Terri and I, how much time do you need to like sort of be ready for, for sexual intimacy?
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was a big difference between the two of us like 20-3 hours and 50-5.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it was, and I think a part of that is that like,
[SPEAKER_02]: our connection, especially for Terra.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think it's just for Terra.
[SPEAKER_02]: The more I think about it, the more I think it's for me as well, is that when we are emotionally connected, when we are feeling close at our heart level, when there's more fun and playful, just joking around,
[SPEAKER_02]: intimacy, when we're listening to each other about our thoughts about life or whatever, that that really sort of, you know, it's like the oil in the engine of our overall connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what like this win that this intimacy discrepancy gets in and there's one area where one person just isn't getting that need met and the other person just doesn't need that as much.
[SPEAKER_02]: offline on the other side and it's like one instance for the two of us is like for terror like that whole dating element that we make that time for each other is so important and I probably wouldn't advocate for that as much and that is something that I'm trying to keep top of mind in our relationship but it's not like I don't enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just that the
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, and if I didn't understand and we haven't talked about this before or understood it, I would be like, well, there's other guys out there that was like, want to take me out on dates.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just get caught up into this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, if you can't do that for me, I'll find someone else who can.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's understanding that that's just not your strength, but it's a need for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So how can we consistently talk about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's where, like, this intimacy, discrepancy grows on multiple levels, because I think that's also where, like, you know, the whole, like, sexual side, or even just, like, being seen, not even, like, needing somebody else to, like, engage with you that way, but, like, why people have affairs is, like, that somebody else starts relating to you as, like, a sexual being, and even being perceived in that way by somebody else, like, suddenly,
[SPEAKER_02]: fills this big gap that you've been needing and that's when like that's why it's so important that we begin to say like hey couples out there if there are certain needs where there's a big discrepancy between the two of you we you got a tune into this series and really like make this something that you're able to talk about because this is where there's openings in your relationship for other people to come in and and create real distance between the two of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because at the end of the day, what we're talking about is the fact that we are like, we're different.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we are different based upon a lot of the stuff that we talk about, you know, in other episodes around attachment theory and around just how are upbringing and how our past affects our present is it definitely like attachment styles and
[SPEAKER_02]: anxious attachment versus avoidant attachment versus reactive attachment, you know, all of those attachment styles play deeply into this dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of it is personal growth oriented, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about this concept,
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, we've had an episode on this as well around differentiation, is like how much have each of you sort of like grown through, grown past differentiated from your family of origin issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: and able to be yourself in the midst of an intimate relationship and not lose yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the, like, I can't tell you how many times I've heard it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I feel like I've just lost myself with this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we have to understand that intimacy erodes if we don't have a stable sense of our individual self.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of couples that don't understand what healthy boundaries are or again maybe there's some codependency there but we just don't know it because it's kind of been passed on through our parents, our own family systems, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we really want to help you understand that when you can come into a relationship and when intimacy issues arise and they will,
[SPEAKER_00]: When you can have a sense of self that is present, that feels secure and safe, that's when it feels like you guys have a resolution to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if not, ask me how many couples, I'm like, oh well, I just know that we should have sex so we do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like people pleasing, caretaking, punishing, avoiding, and that's because there's a fear that if I'm authentically myself, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I won't belong or I will be rejected.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we really help you understand how to create a stable sense of self so that you can be authentically you no matter what that discrepancy might be in this period of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: that idea of differentiation, being okay yourself no matter what.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, it cleans up intimacy because if my craving for sexual intimacy is about
[SPEAKER_02]: validating that I'm lovable and that I'm attractive and that I'm enough, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If like that's why I'm craving and that's why my craving is really high for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not necessarily a healthy source of that desire, like we in our relationship, we want that desire to be like, I really want to connect with you and I love you and I want to feel like and we want to express ourselves in that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: and and same thing on the emotional side of if like i need that emotional connection because without it i feel lost and scared that you know again that's like that could be an anxious attachment right that's not a great place to be getting it and that might affect my partners almost like unconscious understanding of like wow they want this from me but this
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, and it's also like this, if our nervous systems aren't in a calm state, they can create a lot of friction.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think about, like, I've worked with a lot of couples with infidelity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And right, like, both couples are experiencing like shame or mistrust.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're trying to have
[SPEAKER_00]: let's just say sexual intimacy again and like one person's shame is like overwriting and in their head and so they can't perform like they want to perform and like when your nervous systems aren't regulated and you're trying to do this together it can feel very disjointing and very rupturing and so again we're gonna try to help you understand how mismatch nervous systems really do
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is kind of what you were supposed to talk about, especially like a bridge right into the next thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that so this discrepancy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this like greater need I have in one area and tears maybe greater or lesser need in another area.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we look at it just as purely a problem, then it points to the fact that something is screwed up between the two of us or like I blame it on my partner to your fault because I need this and you don't need as much of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But instead of we get like curious about this and we have a really like thoughtful conversation, then we see it as an opportunity for growth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me and Division, like, why is my desire for this certain connection with you so much higher than yours?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it higher this year than it was last year?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, instead of it being like this, this like sort of,
[SPEAKER_02]: problem-based approach that's something's wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an opportunity to, like, first of all, for me to understand myself better, is to be, like, okay, what is actually going on?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if terror really wants to, like, have these, like, connecting moments out,
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it hard for me to make that a priori?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, instead of being like, well, I tried to get you to go out last Saturday and you said you didn't want to go, which is often times been my approach.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of like, well, why is it like hard for me to just like plan a special time for us?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, why is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean, I definitely have learned that in the past.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, because it's like that just wasn't like,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we talk about this like like all the time like to sell our families and stuff and and it's no like shag on my parents or my pastor whatever but it's like we didn't do stuff like that like We didn't have like I remember a couple of birthday parties when I was like really young and stuff and like it just wasn't in our thing of like making special moments life was just very like
[SPEAKER_02]: routinely predictable like we went out to pizza every Friday right like you know into church on Sundays like it was just like there was not a lot of people like going out of their way to do special things for each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well and yes and then asked we met and I more of the chameleon like I kind of like oh I'm just gonna kind of go towards like each as we have doing things and just forget mine because that must be
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I remember the first Christmas we had where you bought like these elaborate gifts for like everybody in my family, and we were all just like, it was no it totally is it totally it's wonderful about you, but it was like against our like family rules it was like what is this person and all this thought into this?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was always thought, not a lot of money like fan books and stuff, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, full anyways, I mean, that's like a whole other podcast, but I'm again, so really what we're talking about is we just want to help you understand that fluctuations are natural, they're normal, they're due to stress,
[SPEAKER_00]: transitions as we know parenting hormones, you name it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something to be said there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be talking about it in episode two.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then just really we want to encourage curiosity instead of blaming, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been the blameer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been like, I just need like a J.
[SPEAKER_00]: Crew kind of guy to like take me out on the river.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't even have rivers in Tucson, but like in my little mind I would get so like young, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my own story.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why, you know, one of the things we do whether it's in our at home manual or in our office is we explore early childhood attachment through adolescence because we truly are who we are from that time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you recognize when you get into conflict or you're like tantruming, you should say, how old am I?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I often was like a teenager.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'm getting off topic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take it away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take away tools.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, always at the end of the day, we're like presenting a topic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today, it's discrepancy in intimacy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Around whether it's emotional, intellectual, spiritual, sexual, like you have a desire that's higher or lower than your partner, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that, and that exists.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then we're saying, like, it exists.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's super normal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to talk about because we get defensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: we shut down, we become bad of, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like recognizing all those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now here's your challenge.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's your challenge, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's can you and your partner sit down, say, this is challenging, but these people just told us, like 80% plus a people deal with this, so we must be, we're not the only ones here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can we have a thoughtful conversation about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we be curious about it?
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe like a starting point, if it feels okay, is like where do you blame instead of get curious?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that could be a good starting, like I've noticed that I blame, like you know, like for example, I notice that I blame you for not being the planner in our relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of like, gosh, how many understand why these differences exist in?
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I know, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because your appearance weren't,
[SPEAKER_02]: planners like that and it just wasn't in your orbit and that's okay and it functioned that was like in some ways like yeah why then it became very normal is it like it was the way it was and it was functional enough right I think another tip in this conversation
[SPEAKER_02]: because I think there's a tendency that if tarot tells me that, well, this is this thing I need that I'm not getting from you.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first thing I'm gonna do is probably get like defensive or feel shameful about it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so if there's any way that you could try to make your first,
[SPEAKER_02]: instinct after your partner saying, hey, here's the thing that I think I have a higher desire for than you do.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you could then instead just go internally and be like, well, huh?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why might it be that I'm less like apt to want that?
[SPEAKER_02]: And trying to take it outside of the context of your relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the easy thing to be is like, like
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we kind of had like a tough moment the other night where we were going back forth we were highly stressed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of us brought up and need we had and the other was like, well, I could, do you want to talk about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can talk about this and it's like that was like wasn't helpful and something we both do to each other and have it and so it's like a natural instinct.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the better instinct is to go like, okay, even if I go before my time with Tara,
[SPEAKER_02]: like why might that be something that's just not in my wheelhouse?
[SPEAKER_02]: And instead of being defensive about it, I want to be curious about myself of like, why am I built that way?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's going to help you be even more curious towards your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you have that curiosity, when your partner's going to, it's a road to some level of accountability too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and even just like coming home to your partner, like gosh, I was listening to this amazing relationship podcast
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like thinking like you know what, there's like some stuff here that I'm holding onto that might not be healthy and just hearing that hearing that like my partner is reflecting on maybe something that doesn't quite feel good or disconnection or having an relationship that makes me feel like they care.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just knowing that you're listening to a podcast and having thoughts around it and experiences and reflecting, that's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, just like a reminder,
[SPEAKER_00]: And even though we love our differences, they start to irritate the crap out of us when we've been together for a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you, you know, if you feel like this episode could be helpful for someone, make sure you share it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We love comments on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can email us at podcast at relationship renovation.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Each and I read all of those emails and we are the ones that respond to here to every single one of those because I have to.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I want to give you a teaser next week we're taking the second step in this intimacy discrepancy series and it is the silent saboteurs.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are the things that get in the way that diminish our ability to connect in this way and that is stress, shame, and then good old desire mismatch, which is a pain in the butt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: But we grow from it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And check out in our show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first top of them always have these links.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have a link to book of a coaching call.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're interested in private coaching with Terranai, there's a link to our Patreon community.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where you can become a member and do the relationship or innovation at home program.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is the link to our Amazon box.
[SPEAKER_02]: link to our Amazon book, the RR at home book, which is awesome and you can work through that yourself or that Patreon community links up seamlessly with it where there's video lessons for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And monthly live Q&A, that's the big piece.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then finally there's this cool emotional safety assessment quiz that you can also take that's on our website.
[SPEAKER_00]: So give those all a check out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you everyone for listening, talking everything intimacy, as always take care of yourself, take care of each other, bye-bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye-bye.