[SPEAKER_00]: content warning.
[SPEAKER_00]: The following episode contains explicit discussions of child abuse, including graphic footage of violence involving minors.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please take care while listening and step away if needed.
[SPEAKER_00]: This month, two major headlines ignited conversation about corporate punishment in Christian homes.
[SPEAKER_00]: In one case, an associate pastor from the well-known 2819 church was arrested after police reports alleged he beat his son with a power cord, leaving the child bloodied.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in another Christian schoolteacher sparked widespread outrage after reportedly striking her own child with a belt 22 times in just 14 seconds, a brutal assault that was captured on camera.
[SPEAKER_00]: On today's episode of the Prechbois podcast, I'm joined by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey Kramer McGinnis, authors of the Myth of Good Christian Parenting, how false promises betrayed
[SPEAKER_00]: Today, we're going to unpack these cases and explore the cultural and religious messages that allow the abuse to happen and discuss what healthy parenting can look like in faith communities.
[SPEAKER_04]: Stay tuned to The Preacher Boys Podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, everybody, welcome back to the Creature Boys podcast, Kelsey and Marissa.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for taking time last minute to talk about these stories with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for having us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we talked just recently and we talked kind of in the abstract of the stories of
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, corporal punishment, harsh discipline within Christian context, and the reason I reach out to both of you is because there's two real world examples of this going to its extremes to the point where law enforcement gets involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for people that are listening on November 10th, 2025, Pastor Kenneth McFarland was arrested for cruelty to children after allegedly beating a stepson with a power cord.
[SPEAKER_00]: the boy had bruising on his upper thigh and lower buttocks and he had dried blood on the back of his pants and a little while later November 19th, 2025 it was reported that a Christian school teacher was arrested after a video service to have her striking her 12-year-old child 22 times in 14 seconds with a belt pulling the child by the hair, screaming profanity in the face of the child.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'll just start with this.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I shared these stories with my wife and said I was going to cover them, she went, I think there's going to be a lot of people that don't have an issue with us in the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: She said, I think about the people that I grew up around.
[SPEAKER_00]: She, you know, she said, I see the commentary online.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be a lot of people that say this isn't abusive, that this is just punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you see these stories, you know, what reaction are you expecting from people in the fuse based on your research over all this time?
[SPEAKER_07]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_07]: That's a good question.
[SPEAKER_07]: I, you know, I would, I have a different expectation, which is more that people would see these and say this is an example of an extreme out of control adult, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like this is cherry picking that these are not worth overpaying attention to like they're terrible.
[SPEAKER_07]: I would, I would expect most people that at least from the, from the conversations that we've had through researching for the book.
[SPEAKER_07]: you know, I would expect people to distance themselves from this and say this, but this isn't God's way to do this, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: It's sort of like don't use this as an example to refute the use of the rod of discipline.
[SPEAKER_07]: This is malpractice by a couple of obviously troubled adults.
[SPEAKER_06]: I've seen some of that for sure, but even regarding both these clips, I've seen a lot, a rather shocking amount of people, yes, defending it, or saying, we need more of this.
[SPEAKER_06]: This is why children are not behaving in schools.
[SPEAKER_06]: This is why they're school shooting.
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, like whatever they're pulling from to say, we need more parents doing this.
[SPEAKER_06]: Or they are saying, I got worse than that when I was kid.
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I agree, but with what you're saying, Kelsey, particular people who I think are convicted, I do think there are some Christians who see that and are convicted, but then it's the immediate, like, thought stopping.
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, no, but we're not doing that.
[SPEAKER_06]: We're doing it the right way.
[SPEAKER_06]: But then there's people who are just doubling and tripling down and are kind of like, yeah, what did that?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's quite easy to do.
[SPEAKER_06]: What did that child do?
[SPEAKER_06]: The considerate mama on Instagram linked like 10 pages worth of comments, just saying that.
[SPEAKER_06]: all these people responding that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it really split into the two camps that you kind of show in your book where you talk about the people who call for this kind of soft spoken kind of approach to where it's you're going to sit down, you're going to talk to them, you're going to dispassionately kind of spank them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you have the people where it is what Doug Wilson calls the reign of terror, you know, where it is very aggressive approach.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you say in the book, it's hard to say which one of those is more harmful, like there's a lot of interesting psychological elements to both of those.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to start specifically with the story of this school teacher, a second grade teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll, I'll, I think I'll probably show the clip because I think, you know, we were talking beforehand.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is really hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've thought about this nonstop since theme about covering the story, which is on the one hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very heavy club.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I want to show it, and I may edit this and say, I don't want to.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the other hand, I think it's important for people to see these things because it's one thing to say a child was struck.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's another thing to visually see that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think for most people and to hear it, I think for most people, it should feel shocking and should feel obviously wrong.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[SPEAKER_06]: is screaming profanities, but they're child.
[SPEAKER_06]: But yet, the child is in fight or flight powerless, ensuring the speed, you know what I mean, even if it's a common parent.
[SPEAKER_06]: So I think it is really triggering, but important to not look away to look and bear witness.
[SPEAKER_06]: Like this is what we're enabling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reading 22 strikes in 14 seconds.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's at least one of those was with the child facing them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It looked like it was across the face or arms of the child.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, a parent out of control.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you saw that clip, obviously you've been deep in researching some of the worst versions of these stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: was this something where you went, this is far more common than people realize, is it something where you went?
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, this is a really extreme example.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know how to process this.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was your immediate reaction to the clip?
[SPEAKER_00]: Kelsey, if you want to start and then more said, if you want to give your take.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I is a combination of things for me.
[SPEAKER_07]: I have sort of chosen not to keep close tabs on the discourse about it on social media.
[SPEAKER_07]: I just find it really disturbing.
[SPEAKER_07]: But my response was a combination of, I think, people are going to, as I said, I think people will say, this is an extreme example.
[SPEAKER_07]: This isn't what Holy Spirit filled, Obedient parents are going to do, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: But then my other response was, well,
[SPEAKER_07]: If you are telling parents that physical violence is a proportional reaction to their children's behavior, it just opens the door for this.
[SPEAKER_07]: Like, you know, elsewhere, I've talked about how I think parents may not want to admit it, but one draw of spanking is that it gives parental anger a place to land, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like, if you are told that your child is
[SPEAKER_07]: not just difficult, but sinful, rebellious, and that this is behavior that you must come down on.
[SPEAKER_07]: For some parents, that is, it kind of opens the floodgates of, okay, yes, I should be angry about this.
[SPEAKER_07]: I should be God with God is angry about this, and God would
[SPEAKER_07]: even for parents who may be after it was like, oh, maybe it took that too far.
[SPEAKER_07]: They can feel a little better about it because it's like, but that we can't give that a pass.
[SPEAKER_07]: That is rebellion.
[SPEAKER_07]: That, you know, strike him and he will not die.
[SPEAKER_07]: You know, that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_07]: Like they're going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_07]: They need to know that wasn't okay.
[SPEAKER_07]: that kind of thinking gives cover to all kinds of stuff.
[SPEAKER_07]: And it might not in the parents or teachers mind, excuse it, but it does make it less of a big deal, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like it sort of makes it, I made a mistake in pursuit of doing the right thing, right?
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I agree with that.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think it made me angry.
[SPEAKER_06]: Of course, to see that and it made me angry at the way
[SPEAKER_06]: of the most powerful reasons we as a Christian community need to be done with spanking, because even if someone believes there is a right calm way to do it, the line between when something pippets from whatever they're envisioning that is to something where they would point and be like, that is abuse is completely subjective.
[SPEAKER_06]: It is completely determined by the parent behind closed doors who feels justified.
[SPEAKER_06]: So I think when I saw that I was like,
[SPEAKER_06]: Even the person who's like, wow, I think in certain rare cases you can just be thinking like at what point are you willing to get that up to stop enabling that kind of thing for other children because that's what's happening when it's bullshit by Christian teaching and I also the second thing I thought was everybody in that clip is in like fight or flight right like that parent.
[SPEAKER_06]: has not is triggered.
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, I would bet anything that that is generational.
[SPEAKER_06]: I bet that is how they were treated as a child.
[SPEAKER_06]: And so when they are triggering, they are unleashing it.
[SPEAKER_06]: That doesn't excuse it, but it says, look, we did not all turn out fine if that is what we experienced as a child.
[SPEAKER_06]: And that is what you're caught up in your rage and doing.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think a lot of times when you will talk to parents who did spank, they will continue to rely on euphemisms.
[SPEAKER_06]: go to their child and be like, well, I'm sorry, I was too harsh yesterday or something or it becomes this like thing that we don't directly name and say we are enabling adults to be violent towards children.
[SPEAKER_06]: And the parents are stuck in that too.
[SPEAKER_06]: They need to be helped.
[SPEAKER_06]: They need a lot of help to process that because those moments I think I don't even know.
[SPEAKER_06]: It would be interesting to talk to that mother.
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't even know if she could probably recall.
[SPEAKER_06]: What is going on for her right is it just kind of this blind rage and when you talk to children adult children reflecting back are they it's just I think everybody's nervous systems are completely overwhelmed in that moment and I think it's part of why it was so triggering for a lot of people watching it I think it brings up things that their body remembers from the site and the sound, but that their mind has been like.
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah, that's spanking, or I probably deserved that, or kids need that.
[SPEAKER_06]: What did that child do?
[SPEAKER_06]: So I think I don't know.
[SPEAKER_06]: It made me think we need to stop and generational trauma is real, and this is something that I just think there's no way the church can keep.
[SPEAKER_06]: propagating the teaching and lying to themselves and saying it's good, good, let alone healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, even the language, like, saying, spanking, it all these things go down smoother than saying what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, discipline is easier to say than hitting your child, you know, punish, corporal punishments is easier to say than abuse.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, there's a lot of things that
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, even just in the language that we use, it makes it a lot easier to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, you know, I'll just say this here to get ahead of comments.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm well aware that this is not every single Christian.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not represent every single branch of the Christian faith.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as you point out in your book,
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of mainstream Christian teaching on these subjects.
[SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned your book that popular Christian parent teach.
[SPEAKER_00]: Popular Christian parenting teaching has enabled and exacerbated child abuse.
[SPEAKER_00]: You give several examples.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk about oral Roberts saying, pop-up believed in the stars and stripes.
[SPEAKER_00]: He put on the stripes, I saw the stars.
[SPEAKER_00]: Douglas Wilson said, God has required us to inflict pain on those deer to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Past Jack Hiles said that spinking should be a ritual, a voting box I'm recommended all day spinking sessions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again Douglas Wilson called for the rain of tears that I mentioned earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: And John Piper said he would rather go to jail then give up the right to spink a child.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, these are some mainstream leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are not one-off figures.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the extreme examples.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what stands out to me reading a lot of these quotes is
[SPEAKER_00]: some are very vague into what the process of Christian discipline actually looks like, but some give pretty specific cues like this idea of like all day sessions, these ideas of seeing stars and again, I don't know all the influences that, you know, Randy Staples had as a second grade teacher raising kids, but I have to imagine she was getting some of the runoff of
[SPEAKER_00]: some of those common cultural and Christian perspectives on how to discipline your children.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to move us into this second story here that explicitly involves a pastor.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean the 2019 church has been on my radar for a little bit because it's a massive church 1.4 million subscribers to the YouTube channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: They packed out state from arena a month ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's been on my radar.
[SPEAKER_00]: This story just reiterating, pastor was arrested, bruising on the
[SPEAKER_06]: Dress is a 15 year old right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, teenager had dried blood on the back of his pants, which signal the principal to contact the authorities.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you saw that story, when you heard about the power cord, you know, this is the power cord thing has come up a couple times on the show in relation to Steven Anderson, but like when it comes to the implement used, when it comes to the severity of the beating, how did that land for you when he came across the story?
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm angry about both of these stories.
[SPEAKER_06]: I really am, so I think that is the first response.
[SPEAKER_06]: And then secondly, I think the age of age of these young adults really is important to note because a lot of this spanking teaching will say, oh, if you do this right in the early years, you'll spank and be done where this is establishing it.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I just, I would love people for to think to think about that.
[SPEAKER_06]: If you are reaching for a power record to beat your 15-year-old, think of the 15-year-olds in your life or your 12-year-old, you have not effectively disciplined at any point.
[SPEAKER_06]: You are just resorting to violence when you feel at your ends.
[SPEAKER_06]: That's what this is.
[SPEAKER_06]: Is that pastor had grabbed a power record and done that to another adult or a staff member on church?
[SPEAKER_06]: That would be criminal assault
[SPEAKER_06]: anyone in her classroom teacher of the year for second grade, immediate assault charges.
[SPEAKER_06]: And if they had done it calmly, we would think they were sociopathic to another adult, right?
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, so I just, I would love for us to like stop talking about this as though this is normal.
[SPEAKER_06]: and stop using the terms that kind of make it normal.
[SPEAKER_06]: This is incredibly disturbing and from a pastor it's such a betrayal, it's such a betrayal.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I would echo everything.
[SPEAKER_07]: Morris has said my response was very similar.
[SPEAKER_07]: I thought immediately of all of these books, like James Thompson, who would say like, these should basically be done if you're doing it right by the time the child is six or seven.
[SPEAKER_07]: with the acknowledgement that as your child gets older, you will not be able to physically control your child anymore.
[SPEAKER_07]: And this idea that your parental authority should be so firmly unquestionably established that your teenager wouldn't dare, which if you've met teenagers is unrealistic.
[SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, I think James Jobs and writing some of this with a toddler and a baby at home.
[SPEAKER_07]: It's like, you know, that makes sense, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: You.
[SPEAKER_07]: And I, I just think in, in those moments at home, I, I shutter to think what that home life is like.
[SPEAKER_07]: I can't imagine this was a one-off thing.
[SPEAKER_07]: But if you are a parent who believes that you have the authority to pick up a tool and beat your child, you've probably believed that for a while and have done other things to try to establish that kind of authority in your household, I find it very troubling that just as Marissa said, if that were to happen between two adults, it would absolutely be a criminal assault
[SPEAKER_07]: And the mental gymnastics we do to make that okay between parent and child is crazy.
[SPEAKER_07]: And a failure of Christians to think about how, how loving our neighbor is loving our children.
[SPEAKER_07]: What that looks like?
[SPEAKER_07]: We sacrificed that on the altar of this man created idea of what parental
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_06]: And it really robs families of the connection and joy that could be theirs.
[SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah, it's the failure and it just, it's still so much from families.
[SPEAKER_06]: I think what you said Kelsey, there's really haunting.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what, what is that like if a parent's at that point, like how normative is that?
[SPEAKER_06]: And in the first instance, I think the older sibling said,
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's normative.
[SPEAKER_06]: They had experienced it.
[SPEAKER_06]: It's part of why the one sibling went public with it.
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, it makes me concerned, frankly, for still for those children, because I think the moms released.
[SPEAKER_06]: And at that point, are is their safeguarding for them?
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's not like a parent is released.
[SPEAKER_06]: And now a quick to parent released from jail.
[SPEAKER_06]: So it's very troubling.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_07]: And I don't want to suggest that like there is a correct Christian way to parent that will not only not involve spanking but will also involve teenagers who are compliant and never disrespectful right like it is I do not have teenagers, but I can imagine that yes is triggering to have a child that you have cared for and provided for be disrespectful or be confrontational.
[SPEAKER_07]: But Christianity gives cover to the triggered parent to then lash out physically and you know I don't want to like as as a parent of non teenagers I don't want to belittle the difficulty of that like I think
[SPEAKER_07]: we need to do a better job of giving Christian parents this language that this is hard.
[SPEAKER_07]: Your children are their own people.
[SPEAKER_07]: They will make decisions that are their decisions.
[SPEAKER_07]: And that's not necessarily a reflection on you that you need to internalize as a parental failure and then turn around and lash out, trying to do it the right Christian way.
[SPEAKER_07]: I just think there are so many things swirling together for Christian parents in those moments.
[SPEAKER_07]: When you've been told as a Christian parent that if you do this right, this shouldn't happen to you, your children shouldn't do this.
[SPEAKER_07]: I think we need a more robust language of autonomy and individual decision and children as they get older being able to make their own choices about their lives.
[SPEAKER_07]: That we as parents may be alarmed by and try to push back on when they're under our care especially, but they're have to be better tools.
[SPEAKER_06]: and understanding of child development to say, if we believe in God's design, it's a part of God's design that teenage children, teenagers differentiate and individuate and separate from their family, separate from their family of origin.
[SPEAKER_00]: The chapter where it says, you know, our children human, you know, and you talk about rights and telling me, I think that's an important question that needs to be answered in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I listen to a significant amount of sermon clips and I'll share some of those in a moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Children are given a lot of labels beyond human, you know, it's your arrows and a quiver, you know, your soldiers for a war, you are this this blessing, you know, for us to have like you're basically like this statute goes on the mantle that makes us look good and there's not much thought into who are you as a person?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we guide you in that development beyond just
[SPEAKER_00]: beating the bad out of you is really the takeaway I get from this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to read the statement from the church really quick because I I read it and I thought on on it's own the statement's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's a lot of times I see stories like this and the church either doesn't respond or they don't they don't take any action to fire somebody who gets caught doing something like this and so at face value I think it's
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's easy to point and say, okay, this is handled correctly, but then again, let's see some of the sermon clips I think get contradicts what's said in the statement.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the statement said,
[SPEAKER_00]: After the year 28, 19 family, as you know, our church is in a place of deep relationships and shared mission, and now we must face a difficult moment together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last week, church leadership learned that, kind of, Mick Farland was arrested and charged with a serious crime involving the physical harm of a child in his family.
[SPEAKER_00]: After learning about his arrest, we immediately reached out to his wife to offer unwavering support and commitment to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We immediately suspended him indefinitely so we could better understand the facts and he agreed to step down until the decision was made about his future employment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Based on the information that we were able to gather and verify we made the decision to dismiss Kenneth McFarlane from our staff as of Tuesday, November 18th.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday, our team made necessary arrangements and our staff was notified earlier today.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are several steps we took to make sure the situation was considered without haste and the well-being of everybody involved and what was considered.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is important to us that as a church you understand why this decision was made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every person or staff must align with Scripture and a standard of conduct that inspires others to draw closer to Jesus.
[SPEAKER_00]: We determine that the standard of conduct we have as a church, especially for those involved in pastoral ministry, was violated.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's important that we communicate with you about this matter because it affects us as a church family.
[SPEAKER_00]: As a team were deeply disappointed in the circumstances at hand, and agreed for the hurt and pain that was inflicted by someone who carried responsibility in our church, would it be very clear that twenty-eight-nineteen church will not tolerate violence of any kind, from any member of our team, especially involving children, as this does not reflect our culture and values.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I read that statement, go.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great to hear that you don't call for any violence of any kind against especially children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I started watching some clips from the church and again, obviously they made a step to remove him so I do want to applaud that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think again we go into the vagueness of the theology, the way that things are said and what people can take from those.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you're
[SPEAKER_01]: You can end up in a place similar to where McFarlane ended up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Train up a child and the way that they should go I don't know how to control them foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child And the rod of correction which drive it far away I don't know how to control them discipline your child with the rod for the shi I'm not sure Lee died I don't know how to control them you're reach is to tell little to graveyard to get off the table at Olive Garden train them up
[SPEAKER_01]: Praise God for Dr.
[SPEAKER_01]: So and so and and Google.
[SPEAKER_01]: My parents and comes from the Proverbs.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's straight O school children left Undiscipline bring shame to its parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know you think your kid is cute And I know you think they're awesome and your child is the best thing in the world your child is a sinner and left untrained They will default towards sin
[SPEAKER_01]: and rebellion and disrespect.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't care that they got big eyes and nice here.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are little sinners and they must be trained.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have the moral capacity to determine what is right from wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're two, they're three, they're five, they're 10, train them in the way they should go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I took a lot of beatings, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: My mother was good with that belt.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have been to, you can do time out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't do time out.
[SPEAKER_01]: This should just say, foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the rod of correction would drive it far from the child.
[SPEAKER_01]: I took a lot of beatings.
[SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't say that word, discipline.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because I was a very wayward child.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's the point.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's easier to use other words than what it actually is.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, there's no censorship there.
[SPEAKER_01]: The football child.
[SPEAKER_01]: You read Google articles all you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read the scriptures.
[SPEAKER_01]: The scripture says foolishness is bound up in the heart of the child and the rod of correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: This belt on my way is the rod of correction where drive it far away.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's discipline your children.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're foolish on the inside.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clean the knife, spanked our children every time they got spanked and hurt.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what you see in my home fruit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Them beans watch, transform them.
[SPEAKER_01]: them, them beatens, code word trials, transform them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every single weapon was a trial, and it perfected them in some area of their character.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm about to let you have it for your disobedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna get the belt.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not gonna get around the belt.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not your friend is why they're disobedient.
[SPEAKER_01]: I stopped being afraid to touch them or discipline them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He boosts 12 tape, discipline is love.
[SPEAKER_01]: I taught my children the first time I pulled out my belt.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm about to do is call love.
[SPEAKER_01]: And every time I discipline you, I want you to think love.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're hearing that in contrast to the statement that says, we don't advocate for any violence against children.
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, they are advocating for violence against children.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_07]: But there's just no, there's no other way to say that.
[SPEAKER_07]: And in a way that I think even would make someone like Ted Trip Blush a little bit, you know?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like the absolute violence of the description of using a belt, using a physical implement that you can sort of generate this pain and beat your child.
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's that's what that term.
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I will credit them for using the term.
[SPEAKER_06]: A lot of people do the euphemisms, but and I think you're here in those clips.
[SPEAKER_06]: So they what that the pastor received he was beaten as a child and
[SPEAKER_06]: believes that that is necessary and what could discipline is, you know, and you hear Hebrews 12 popping up there.
[SPEAKER_06]: This is what it means to discipline.
[SPEAKER_06]: Those you love and this that mixed message again of this pain, this pain I'm causing you.
[SPEAKER_06]: equals love.
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's an incredibly destructive message when you play that out as far as enabling abuse down the road, setting someone to either be abusive or be abused, right?
[SPEAKER_06]: Saying it's brapping that up together.
[SPEAKER_06]: I think what struck me is the opening clip where he has the actual Bible and he's doing a swadding motion with it.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think that powerfully shows.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what's going on.
[SPEAKER_06]: People are misusing the scriptures here.
[SPEAKER_06]: Maybe that's all they've
[SPEAKER_06]: to take the word of God and say we need to be hitting children with it, both literally in this sense and metaphorically.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, this is a real like greatest hits of all.
[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, like everything, you've got, don't let your two-year-old run the house, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like this constant, your children are going to walk all over you.
[SPEAKER_07]: There's the children can't tell the difference between good and evil.
[SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you must train them.
[SPEAKER_07]: Training is a word that I know some people don't think that hard about how they use the word trained, but that to me is a telling word that people see their toddler is more as pets than as human beings, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like this is a behaviorist project, what this, what this pastor is advocating for is pure behaviorism.
[SPEAKER_07]: It has nothing to do with seeing the image of God in your child, with considering that Jesus once was a child, with considering that Jesus is present to your child.
[SPEAKER_07]: It is pure behaviorism, and you can dress it up in this used scripture as much as you want, but this is the parent-centered form of Christian parenting that takes parental desire, parental will, parental expectations, and centers them to the point that a parent can do whatever they want to a child.
[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, and there's, that's when Anne Albert calls James Jobs and parents centered, that's what she means.
[SPEAKER_07]: This is about, you know, I think it's always funny when people use the examples of like, oh, you know, they're, undisciplined children are ashamed to their parents.
[SPEAKER_07]: That is a thing that parents feel so viscerally like I understand, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: Like everyone knows what it's like to be.
[SPEAKER_07]: Embarrassed when your child is struggling with something out in public, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: And we take that and say, you know, it's a disgrace to your parents to have a child who is not first-time obedient, who is not able to perform in the way we want them to perform in public.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, who can be at all of garden completely uncontrolled like an adult, right?
[SPEAKER_06]: Or something, you know, that example they give.
[SPEAKER_07]: right and and also the whole like you can Google it all all articles you want to have the Bible that's like another greatest testing right like there is no outside advice that you need it's all right here it's all right here applied in this particular way
[SPEAKER_07]: And again, it's just this failure to even try to help parents find another tool to deal with the fact that this is hard.
[SPEAKER_07]: Of course, no parent wants to let their child climb on the table at all of garden.
[SPEAKER_07]: And there are other responses to that that are not turning around and beating your child.
[SPEAKER_06]: Because that's the other
[SPEAKER_06]: the other myth there is it's either this taking off your belt and whipping or your child completely out of control in public and that is what I see in a lot of pushback whenever we talk about this well then what well that is the question because the only tool Christian parents have been given and it is yes you will need to educate yourself you will need to look outside your proof text understanding of the
[SPEAKER_06]: and grow in the fruit of the spirit in different ways because it is difficult and it will test your patients and it will require a long-suffering and compassion and sympathy and considering someone else's more important than yourself.
[SPEAKER_06]: But those are the things and those are the research that there are people out there offering.
[SPEAKER_06]: those resources to parents.
[SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, I would, I want to like get ahead of that argument too to be like, no, it's not either or that's simply not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's something in the first story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, with this teacher that was spying Arizona and.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was a comment that said, you know, something along lines of this is similar to what I got and said, you know, it's better this than knowing that like one day he's going to grow up and be looting targets, you know, like he went, they went to that example and it's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and then you hear the background to that stories that he was being beaten 22 times in 14 seconds because he hadn't finished a chore.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was what sparked that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like, how do you go from that, a normal thing of not finishing a chore to, well, if this doesn't happen, they're going to end up in prison or they're going to end up down this rough road.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do want to ask this specifically because
[SPEAKER_00]: Philip Anthony Mitchell, who's the teaching pastor at 2019.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, you just watched that compilation, and he talks about, you know, my mom was good with the bell, so with, so on my, what's what perplexes me is that a big piece of his story is that when he was 18, he went to prison, he was in a life of crime, you know, and obviously has,
[SPEAKER_00]: come a long way from that moment and I don't want to integrate that part of his story.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, it's clear that the beatings he was getting at that age did not deter him from following that path.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were not effective in producing good fruit, as he said.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were not effective in making him more like Jesus.
[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't beat the bad out of him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what someone he himself says was good with the belt, just like he is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just as we close out,
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we need to have the conversation, like, is this even effective?
[SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned your book some research from Elizabeth Gershoth, who says that Spanking is linked to more aggression, it's linked to more delinquency, it's linked to more mental health problems, worse relationship with parents, puts child at higher risk for physical abuse from their parents and so on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if the system is doing so much harm, if the system is being touted so regularly,
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're still not seeing the fruit it's promising.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is this still so attractive to people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's clearly not effective.
[SPEAKER_00]: But why do you think it's still so hard for the church to shake?
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, this is a really persistent myth, this is a really persistent myth that lack of physical punishment puts you at risk of creating a delinquent, basically, such a persistent myth.
[SPEAKER_07]: We have research from Elizabeth Grishov, as you said.
[SPEAKER_07]: She's sort of the one who's done the most research and studies on the use of spanking.
[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, this is notoriously difficult research to do.
[SPEAKER_07]: I
[SPEAKER_07]: crime rates in the U.S. do not track along with parenting trends.
[SPEAKER_07]: Like, if this were the case that changing parenting trends were creating a generation of criminals, we would have seen that by now.
[SPEAKER_07]: But it's actually not crime rates have been falling in many, by many metrics.
[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you can track that how you want.
[SPEAKER_07]: But
[SPEAKER_07]: by place in time, you just, there is no correlation between parenting practice and overall crime rates in the US.
[SPEAKER_07]: We just, that doesn't exist, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: So people who are looking for this kind of correlation between, you know, juvenile delinquency and corporate punishment will quickly find that it is more common for children who experienced
[SPEAKER_07]: Corporal punishment, physical violence in the home, are much more likely to be violent as adults and much more likely to have runs with the incarceration system in the US, which in a lot of ways makes sense, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: So, but this myth is so persistent, it has been since the 60s and 70s ever since Bruce Wilkerson, or David Wilkerson, sorry, wrote the book The Cross in the Switchblade, right?
[SPEAKER_07]: He writes about these teenagers in the inner city, these gang members, about their stubbornness, about all of these encounters he's had, drugs and violence.
[SPEAKER_07]: And that becomes this
[SPEAKER_07]: in terms of getting them to really buy into the we need more discipline, message, and the reality is they're just is not evidence that it produces better behavior in the long term.
[SPEAKER_07]: In the short term, someone like James Dobson would say, you know, what he sees as kind of breaking the will of the child in the moment is, yes, I'm causing physical harm to you.
[SPEAKER_07]: You are crying.
[SPEAKER_07]: You're sort of showing contrition to me.
[SPEAKER_07]: That's evidence that this has worked.
[SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[SPEAKER_07]: I've now made you sad.
[SPEAKER_07]: I've hurt you.
[SPEAKER_07]: If that's your metric of whether this works or not, sure.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yes, you can make your toddler really sad and angry and confused by causing them physical harm.
[SPEAKER_07]: And they will probably stop what they were doing.
[SPEAKER_07]: That's a really poor metric for whether or not a child is going to be well behaved, eventually, whether they're going to be a better adjusted adult.
[SPEAKER_07]: We just don't have that data.
[SPEAKER_07]: And the data that we do have suggests that it's kind of the opposite.
[SPEAKER_06]: I think people pull for that pull that myth out because I see it all the time, too.
[SPEAKER_06]: That was going to be like, yes, go survey incarcerated people.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I guarantee they're not going to talk about there.
[SPEAKER_06]: How they were gentle parent.
[SPEAKER_06]: But I mean, but I think it comes out because it's a knee jerk.
[SPEAKER_06]: reaction.
[SPEAKER_06]: I do think we're on a quote podcast earlier this week and the use the term thought stopping cliche and I was like, oh, that's so good because I think these are the things that come up and they stop people's thinking.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think why people continue to resort to this is one, they don't have any other way.
[SPEAKER_06]: So the thought of parenting without this.
[SPEAKER_06]: because it really reveals the kind of paralyzing truth that yes, you're not in control.
[SPEAKER_06]: You cannot maybe you can overpower another human being with their small or if you have generated enough fear even through the teenage years, but at a certain point you are not in control.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think that is very scary for a lot of people period, let alone a lot of parents.
[SPEAKER_06]: And secondly, it requires dethroning their own parents, like I do think this goes so deep to the core of messages people received and I think that's why it's powerful to see that one clip like if if that as much as I don't wish it for that child to be immortalized on the internet in that clip, I think it's powerful to see if that is your reality day in and day out.
[SPEAKER_06]: you have internalized such a level of powerlessness and fear regarding your parent.
[SPEAKER_06]: But I think if you never deal with that, you can be 50 years old and still thinking, I cannot define my parent.
[SPEAKER_06]: I will, you know, some of the comments were saying, shame on that kid who betrayed his mom, who filmed it and put it out there, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_06]: So I think that is at a piece of it.
[SPEAKER_06]: Some really deep parts of people.
[SPEAKER_06]: that are that child who cannot even bear to with their words and an abstract situation say, that is wrong, what my parent who I look to for attachment and care did was wrong.
[SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, those generational cycles are very difficult to break, but in the hopeful sense, it just takes one person, takes one person to kind of stop that.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I would love to see the pastor get up there and say,
[SPEAKER_06]: I honor my parents, I give them empathy and it was wrong what they did with their belt.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I am here to change that and do it differently and invite the parents, the people sitting that congregation to a different way, but so very difficult, courageous thing to do.
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think it requires a lot of internal work in support because a lot of times these parents are trying to parent
[SPEAKER_06]: facing parenting challenges while all this is being triggered and that can be really difficult to be parenting while you're trying to dive into your own stuff.
[SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, I think it goes really deep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Kelsey Marissa, thank you so much for joining me to have this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, we could probably have conversations like this every week.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like there are stories like this popping up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I certainly appreciate your perspectives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Frankly, it's listening definitely grab a copy of the myth of good Christian parenting, of the link available in the show notes where you can
[SPEAKER_00]: Dive a little bit deeper into the research there for now.
[SPEAKER_06]: Can I say one last thing real quick?
[SPEAKER_06]: Just because I want to commend the older brothers, particularly in the first place, who courageously did film and get this out there.
[SPEAKER_06]: And
[SPEAKER_06]: also to sort of note at the end the impact this has on siblings, because I've heard from a number of siblings this week, who may be feel guilty that they didn't do that, you know, when they younger siblings or they feel they feel a whole lot of things.
[SPEAKER_06]: And so I want to commend them and also just make that observation that this isn't even just about the individual parent and the individual child, but the whole family system.
[SPEAKER_06]: And there's a lot of people who it
[SPEAKER_06]: who it stirs things up for and encourage people to take care of themselves while they're processing and thank you for listening with us and also take care of yourself because it's difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's layers of that, you know, I'm sure there's parents who changed their parenting style and feel guilt watching that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there's people who feel the feeling of being the older sibling who didn't say something or the child who's, I'm sure there's plenty of people watching it who went that feels familiar, you know, like I that was just
[SPEAKER_00]: tough love in our household you know like there's a lot of a lot of layers to it and that's why I appreciate your book and I think people should check it out as I think all of those types of stories are represented in it and I think like I said we could talk about this every week with some new story which is unfortunate but it also you know the one positive side of that is that there's familiarity and there's people that have walked through this before and have chosen a better path.
[SPEAKER_00]: and broken the cycles.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I thank you for sharing your perspectives and in your research again I appreciate it and I hope we can chat again soon.
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, me too.
[SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for having us.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been listening to the Preja Boys podcast hosted by Eric Sporzinski.
[SPEAKER_00]: The intro music Bible Belt was performed by Lou Ridley.
[SPEAKER_02]: Come on, we are gathered here today To praise the Holy Father, fill the glory of His name Anyone can worship here so long as you extract Pay your ties and follow rules even the ones God didn't make any Bible